95 - Miles Davis - Bitches Brew - James Mattern

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The 500 with Josh Adam Meyers

Episode 95 – Miles Davis: Bitches Brew (feat. James Mattern)
Originally aired: August 12, 2026

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Overview & Main Theme

This episode of "The 500 with Josh Adam Meyers" explores Miles Davis's groundbreaking 1970 album Bitches Brew — ranked #95 in Rolling Stone’s 500 Greatest Albums. Host Josh Adam Meyers is joined by comedian James Mattern for a deep, passionate, and often hilarious dive into an album that shattered jazz conventions and helped birth the fusion movement. The conversation blends personal experiences, music history, comedy analogies, and a celebration of musical risk-taking.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bitches Brew in Context: The Road to Revolution

[19:56–26:21]

• Miles Davis’s career trajectory: From bebop with Parker (late '40s), to 'cool jazz' (Birth of the Cool, Kind of Blue), to modal jazz, to the fusion experimentation of Bitches Brew.
  • "He is not changing with the times; he's changing before the times change." – Josh, [19:59]
• Societal and musical shifts: Rock, funk, and soul were drawing young audiences; jazz risked irrelevance. Inspired by Bette Davis (his then-wife), Hendrix, Sly Stone, James Brown, Miles leapt into experimentation.
• Pushback from the jazz establishment: Many jazz purists saw the move as a sell-out. The irony — nothing on the album was remotely mainstream.

Quote:
“There’s nothing mainstream about anything on this goddamn record.” – James, [26:21]

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2. Defining the Album: Structure, Players, and Intent

[14:18–18:36], [33:46–34:53]

• Not traditional jazz: Critics struggled to categorize the album; artists and fans recognized its challenge and freedom.
  • “They were looking at it as a jazz record...but it is something else. It leads to other things.” – James, [14:18]
• Electric revolution: Introduction of electric instruments (e.g., electric piano, bass). For musicians like Herbie Hancock and Chick Corea, it changed how they played.
• Creative process: Miles set frameworks, then let players improvise ("play whatever you want, just stick to these chords").
• Studio as an instrument: Producer Teo Macero edited hours of freeform sessions into the final tracks, using tape splicing as composition.

Quote:
“You are simultaneously hearing improvisation and composition after the fact.” – Josh, [42:02]

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3. Track-by-Track Impressions & Key Moments

a. Pharaoh’s Dance

[37:39–41:23]

• Opening track (20+ mins, Side A): Praised for its chaos, tension, and "ascending to another plane."
• James: “Sounds like an Egyptian God’s tea party...pure chaotic bliss.” [39:43]

b. Bitches Brew (Title Track)

[46:07–50:07]

• 27 minutes, 19 edits: Ominous, ritualistic, hypnotic. Miles’s trumpet acts as a voice, often waiting to "say something" rather than showing off virtuosity.
• “He is waiting to express himself. This isn’t just, ‘look at how talented I am’.” – James, [47:57]
• Macero’s production transforms improvisation into an unrepeatable studio creation.

c. Spanish Key

[52:26–54:52]

• Nastiest groove, Latin and funk influences:
  • James: “Sounds like something out of an Italian film in the 70s...eventually becomes a groove fest.”
• Rhythm is the anchor, letting musicians find space without clashing: "Loose and locked at the same time." – Josh, [54:16]

d. John McLaughlin

[58:01–59:43]

• Shortest track, only one without Miles:
  • Commissioned with the instruction “play as though you didn’t know how to play guitar.”

e. Miles Runs the Voodoo Down; Sanctuary

[60:18–72:33]

• "Voodoo Down" is the “pop single” (no edits, deep funk, blues, New Orleans groove).
• Sanctuary: Closing track, melodic, acts as a palate cleanser after 90 minutes of sonic mayhem.

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4. Comedy Parallels & Reflections on Risk

[43:20–45:18], [55:02–59:47]

• Improvisation as creative process: Stand-up and jazz share spontaneity and revision, with the structure often found after experimentation.
• Lineup analogy: A great comedy lineup is like a great jam session — each with a unique voice, differences enhancing the whole.

5. Album Reception & Legacy

[74:14–81:12]

• Critical reception: Initially divisive, later lauded. Became a platinum-selling jazz album — a rarity.
• Influence: Inspired fusion and a host of experimental, genre-blurring musicians (Weather Report, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Radiohead’s "OK Computer" cited as influenced).
• Enduring debate: What is jazz? Does innovation equal sellout?

Quote:
“Do you want to remind yourself of what ‘no’ can...How big of a ‘yes’ ‘no’ can be? Being told you can’t do something, and then you find out that this helps remake the thing that made you.” – James, [85:47]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "This is the musical equivalent of walking into a basement at 3AM and realizing everyone down there is a genius. There are three drummers. Nobody knows what's happening. And Miles Davis is staring at you like somehow you're the asshole." – Josh, [15:28]
• “This isn’t dumbing jazz down — it’s finding enormous new musical language.” – Rolling Stone review cited by Josh, [74:22]
• “This is a space horror crime film disguised as an experimental jazz fusion record.” – James, [70:13]
• “Brew is basically...not the sound of Miles knowing exactly where music is going. It’s the sound of him being brave enough to go looking for it.” – Josh, [88:04]
• Funny anecdote: Josh’s dad met Miles in an elevator:
  • “You’re Miles Davis, right?”
  • Miles, behind sunglasses: “Nah, man.”
  • Josh’s dad: “Well if you see him, tell him I dig his music.”
  • Miles (removing sunglasses): "Thank you, baby." [82:20]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:50] – Introduction to Bitches Brew & genre boundaries
• [19:56] – Miles’s evolution and the path to Bitches Brew
• [29:20] – How the album’s sound shaped European film and music
• [37:39] – Pharaoh’s Dance breakdown
• [46:07] – Dissecting the Bitches Brew title track & its production
• [52:26] – Spanish Key and the paradox of tight/loose rhythm
• [58:01] – John McLaughlin track & leadership through paradox
• [60:18] – Miles Runs the Voodoo Down as the "pop single"
• [66:41] – Sanctuary as the perfect album closer
• [74:14] – The initial critical reception and legacy
• [81:12] – Sales, vindication, and why Miles’s risk-taking mattered
• [85:47] – Why listen to Bitches Brew? Art, challenge, and transformation

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Final Thoughts & Critical Insights

• Bitches Brew remains a towering, challenging work — messy, bold, never background music.
• The album's method—frameworks for improvisation, edited into a new kind of composition—parallels stand-up, innovation, and the artistic need to court failure to achieve greatness.
• For listeners: It’s not an immediate crowd-pleaser, but demands (and rewards) patience and repeated listens.
• “You don’t have to love it, but you have to respect it.” – James, [78:57]

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Episode Highlights & Listener Takeaways

• Bitches Brew is experimental by design: free structures, relentless groove, and risk at every turn.
• What once provoked cries of "sellout" now reads as audacity and vision.
• The parallels with comedy underscore the universal struggle in art: challenge the form, accept criticism, and let public opinion catch up.
• It is not background music, but a headlong dive into chaos and brilliance — and a testament to being "brave enough to go looking for" new sound.

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Guest Plugs

• James Mattern:
  • Instagram: @thejamesmattern
  • Stand-up album & doc: Check Spot
• Josh Adam Meyers:
  • Podcast: The 500
  • Patreon & YouTube (see show links)

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Summary Verdict

Bitches Brew is rightly canonized — not as “easy jazz” but as a declaration of artistic independence, and a soundtrack to the moment when jazz, rock, funk, and psychedelia combusted. This episode is an essential listen for anyone who wants context, laughter, and a little reassurance that loving something challenging is part of the art experience.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

If you want to understand the world today, you need to go back to the 90s. From the Internet boom to the rise of reality TV, the 1990s changed the way we live. I'm Kathy Kinzora. On my podcast history of the 90s, I go inside the stories, events and trends that defined a decade from the fall of communism to the rise of grunge. If it happened in the 90s, you'll hear about it on History of the 90s wherever you stream audio.

[A]

In 2008, a woman rang into a BBC radio show and begged them to stop picking on her niece, Amy Winehouse. Amy did not ask to be a teenage icon. Amy just loves to write and sing. We're going deep into the BBC archives to show you a side of Amy Winehouse. I think we sometimes forget we're here for the messy, the brilliant, the human version of our heroes. I'm Emmanuel Joci. I'm Kai Wright. Listen to big lives wherever you get your podcasts. The 500. The 500. JM been walking us down through that 202012 edition, so it ain't nothing to you. Hundreds more to go. And in need of a friend. The king of peaceful angelo. Talking the 500 until the end Talking the 500 until the end with my man JL on the 500 Talking the 500 until the end. That is Miles Runs the Voodoo down. It is by Miles Davis. It's from bitches brew from 1970. It's number 95 out of 500. And the 500 with me, Josh Adam Myers. I'm gonna do this quick because it's four in the morning right now and I forgot to do this. So how's everybody doing? You guys good? Yes. Goodsies. Let me turn the volume and make sure it's coming in because you hear the fart. There it is, everybody. That's my bro. Great week. This weekend I will be in Tampa. I am doing a comedy festival, the joke World Comedy Fest. Doing this from jams and some shows. It's gonna be fun. The band's gonna be there. Nick's not Nixon. My drummers in. Where's my drummer? Edinburgh. Yeah, he's in Edinburgh. My with my pianist Mark. I'm exhausted. It was my buddy Napoleon's birthday. I've been making music. Follow me at Josh Adam Myers. I love it. A lot of good stuff happening with it, man. Support any way you can support the podcast Patreon. Subscribe to the YouTube YouTube.com the500podcast all right, so I think this is our third or fourth miles record. We. I don't know if you could even call this jazz, but I guess this is what the point of music is. To push something so forward that it's fucking coming out your ball, baby. Cause this is a jazz, funk, rock, maybe psychedelia. It's all got locked in a room, took the wrong drugs, and somehow emerged as geniuses. All those guys got in the room, they did all that stuff in 69 miles had basically, I don't know, like completely changed jazz multiple times and basically made kind of Blue. One of the greatest albums I've ever heard. Possibly the greatest jazz record ever. And I could have spent the rest of his life just doing that. But he didn't. Instead, at 43, he heard Hendrix, Sly Stone, James Brown, Mama Llama I just made that one up. But he said, I'm gonna blow this thing up, man. And the result is this record. And I think that's really cool. 90 minutes. It's a hard listen if you've never listened to jazz, if you don't know Miles. But this is electric, it's massive, it's groovy, it's experimentation.

[B]

Basically,

[A]

the greatest musicians ever of those instruments at the time saying, hey, here's an idea. Now let's figure it all the out as we do it. But I know exactly what we're doing. But I really don't. And my guest today is the one and only James Maddern Mad Dog. He's been coming back, baby. James is the man. This was a good one, man. This is when I love doing the podcast. It's just easy. We get to chill, we get to hang out. I mean, hands down, just one of my favorite dudes. All right, let's get to the episode Ray review and subscribe to the 500. Listen free in all platforms at Josh Adam Myers on all search the 500 podcast. Let's see if I can remember because I don't have my notes in front of me right now. Email the [e-mail], follow the Facebook group. And all for these 500, we have a website. Figure it out. Guess what it is, guys. Guess what it is. All right, you ready, guys? Do it. Brew by Miles Davis. I know it is. Wait, wait, wait. We're not talking about kind of blue. This is in. This is in 2028. This is in the year 2028. We didn't go. But we didn't go into the future.

[B]

Oh, that one's. Because that's deep.

[A]

That's 12, dude. I think that's the 12th. That's pretty impressive. Well, you know, good for a jazz

[B]

guy, having this many in the goddamn top 100.

[A]

I mean. Well, first of all, what have we done? We've done Sketches of Spain. I think that was first.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

We did of him. I know we did. I think. I think it's Sketches of Spain. This and kind of Blue. A movement was positive. There might be. Maybe there's more and I'll research it.

[B]

Not Jack Johnson.

[A]

No, no, but there was. There was. Oh, actually, I gotta look. Maybe there was Jack Johnson on there.

[B]

Probably not, but that would be. That'd be in the conversation.

[A]

You know, the other ones of this

[B]

era aren't gonna make it, but probably were on some artist lists.

[A]

You know what's funny though, too, is that you Are my. Excluding Nebraska.

[B]

Yeah. Now I'm a jazz. It's because I'm not a jazz guy, which is crazy. But I like music that pushes it. So all these records you've gotten me for so far. And like I said, I guess there's another one we might do later.

[A]

You're going to. You'll be back.

[B]

That is incredibly experimental. I just like these people who decide to do something different. So, like, when you tell me these. I mean, if you just had me to come in to talk about the birds. They're lovely. But it wouldn't be the.

[A]

That's. I use Wayne Fetterman for that. Dude. By the way, I threw this to Wayne Fetterman, and Wayne goes. This is one of his. Please knows.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

He goes, please, no.

[B]

And Wayne's delightful. Our personalities. It would make sense that Wayne does birds and that. And doesn't want anything to do with this. And I'm the one going, yeah. When do you need me ready, Vi? Okay, I'll see you in two days.

[A]

I knew you were gonna be ready immediately. Dude. When you were. You needed no time because you were. You came off a Coltrane, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And you came on for.

[B]

I was doing planks when you told me, honestly, I was doing planks.

[A]

You know, he's the king of the Upper east side. Just doing planks.

[B]

And then I'm like, all right, I got, what, two hours of prep? Okay.

[A]

There's more than that.

[B]

There's a couple hours, bro. I don't know. But I just put it together.

[A]

Shut the front door, dude. You know it so well. And also, like, you did. Didn't you do Shape of Music to come?

[B]

Yes. Which I'm a little more in general with because. Because I really do love Ornette Coleman. It just. It There just. It's really weird when we get to, like. Like you're humming the most famous jazz riff ever or one of them a second ago.

[A]

Yeah. What would be. I think that Take five, then Take

[B]

five, and then Love supreme. Favorite things.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Giant steps. Yeah. But which we did last time. So this doesn't necessarily have that. The album we're about to do. It really doesn't.

[A]

What does it have?

[B]

Just pure madness. And that's the beauty of this record is. Is. Is that it goes all over the place. It's a soundtrack to one's own inner thoughts. I mean, I don't know how much you want to dive into it now, but that's what's exciting about this. And I can see why it's in the top 100. Because once again, for get critics, this Rolling Stone list also is full of artists. And real musicians love this because it challenges them and they want to be as free as. As this.

[A]

And so you. You agree with that. You agree where it's. Which is, I would say, is the opposite of. Of what? Of pop music, which is. There is no. You put on the Beach Boy. Well, I'm gonna say the Beach Boys, but yeah, even the Beatle. I mean, the Beatles, early stuff. It's like, Love Me do is not challenging. It's, you know, it's. Challenging is like, you know, revolution number nine, you know, or something off when you start getting in the White Album. But that's not even on the level of this. This is as challenge. This is. This is what I thought. I. Because I. I've told this story and I might have said it to you before, like, I hated jazz growing up because of my father. And I was like, ah, this is lame. I'm heavy metal guy. And then it was 19. I was. I think I was 20, 20 years old, maybe. Maybe about to be 21. And I had my Jeep and it was summertime, and I was. I was done with the albums that I had in my tape player in my Jeep. And I had 89.3 WPFW, which is a Howard radio station, jazz station. And I flipped it to the radio. It's all the same bullshit, 98 Rock and, you know, all that shit. And I'm like, I don't want to hear this. This is what I listen to. And there was. It was a. It was a FundRaiser Weekend on WPFW.

[B]

Every goddamn week.

[A]

Every week.

[B]

College Stations is just you listening to bbb.

[A]

Hey, everybody, Fundraiser here.

[B]

That was Chet Atkins.

[A]

That was. That was Wes Montgomery with Live at the Old Apollo Theater. We'll try to raise money, and we're gonna be talking for about 45 minutes.

[B]

Clearly a race in the middle, right?

[A]

With jazz. What the.

[B]

There's a lot of white dudes with pipes too, baby. There's a lot of. What's his name? Harry Cranes from. From Madman.

[A]

It could have been Wolfman Jack.

[B]

You are Wolf Man Jack.

[A]

He was a white dude.

[B]

You are Wolfman Jack.

[A]

So. But I. But I.

[B]

Listen, Wolf Man. Listen, what if I just nicknamed you that?

[A]

I'll take it, dude. I mean, that's how I got the part on. On FS for Family is that Bill. The first time we started hanging out, when he did the Jam, he goes, I'm writing a TV show and you're going to be the character, the dj. And then he was like. It was like he sent it to me. He told me exactly what he wanted. I sent him the audition and he was like, oh, yeah, dude, that's great. As long as you could just do what I said. And they would even like, even like the producer, Michael Price would just tell me, like, say the lines just like this. I was like, I can act. He's like, just say it like this.

[B]

I was like, it's all they want, baby.

[A]

No, but I do. 89.3. And it was like, cool, man. It was like they were doing a lot of miles. They weren't playing any of the Brew stuff or his later work. They were playing like, the stuff that was like, you know, the kind of blue, the Birth of Cool. Maybe they, maybe they started getting to what is it on the corner. Maybe they got a little bit, which is after this. Yeah, but, but there's still, that's, that's like, still funky. It's like, it's still a song. And I. So then I started buying the records and, and I, and I said, I gotta buy Bitches Brew because I got a feeling this is gonna be like hip hop. And I put this on and I mean, and this is at before. I mean, dude, it was. I hated it. I was like, why did I just waste $30?

[B]

I didn't love this initial the first time either. I'm gonna be honest with you.

[A]

I don't think anybody can. Yeah, unless you, unless you study jazz and you're like, no, because this is like what I wrote about.

[B]

This isn't jazz purism, though. That's. I'm sure we're going to discuss this throughout this episode. This isn't. And then just musicians who play with Miles has said all these jazz critics were critical of it and it's because they were looking at it as a jazz record. It's not a jazz record. It gets lumped in it because we have to categorize thing. It's Miles Davis, but it is something else. And it leads to other things. And you know, you're gonna hear and I'm sure with your notes is fusion and fusion. It's gonna hear. You're gonna fusion and fusion and return to forever and all that. I, I. There's a million other places it goes to that I'm willing to talk to you about with this. Well, you know what's great, that's what's crazy.

[A]

What I loved about listening to it. I don't know if I should Say this now or later, but now that's in my head is that, you know, because, you know, I just played you some of the samples of, like, the music I'm doing. There's a million things in there that I've noted where I'm like, oh, I like that. Sure. That little three notes. Because that's the thing about this album. It's like I said, this is what I wrote. I was like, this is how I sum this record up. It's like walking in where you know, this we're talking about. This is a. The musical equivalent of walking into a basement at three in the morning and realizing everyone down there is a genius. There are three drummers. Nobody knows exactly what's happening. And Miles Davis is staring at you like somehow you're the asshole.

[B]

And that's what he wanted. That's what he wanted. The people don't know this. So this is Bitches Brew. I don't even know.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, they know. I mean, people that listen to this podcast, they are. Die Hard's been waiting for this.

[B]

Okay, so he just, like. He gives some chord changes and patterns and said, play whatever you want. Just play these cards and that. This is what's great about. So people don't know. They were set up in a half circle and Hammond and was Wayne Shorter in the middle as well. I believe those two are in the middle and everyone else is around them. The rhythm section, as you mentioned, two basses. Each track's either two or three drummers at times. You can hear, if you're very astute and your hearing's great. You can hear Miles say someone's name. So they would play a lead or go to a change or. It's. It's fascinating. He wanted it loose like that because he wanted something organic to come out of it.

[A]

I think. I think he. I think he essentially, you know, jazz had really never been this electric.

[B]

Well, so, yeah. So today, as I'm doing cardio, I go and get the.

[A]

What did you do today? Elliptical. You're elliptical guy. Keep those. Keep those noise. Those knees. Knee joints. Juicy, bro.

[B]

I want. I need with all the movements I do so. And I went on Amazon and got the. Another kind of Blue. Miles goes electric, which is on this album, but then leads to him playing the Isle of Wight with all these rock bands and folk bands. And he just does one song for 30 minutes. It's the famous. What do you call that? Call it whatever you want. That's the name of this track.

[A]

Yes, Rules.

[B]

So. But they talk about. He Looked around as the evolution of music, and he's like, why aren't we using electricity instruments? And it's fascinating to see guys like Herbie Hancock in this talk about how it changed how they play, or a Chick Corea. We don't think of it like that. We just think a keyboard player and a piano player are the same, but in their minds, they're different. And the sounds are different. The organic.

[A]

I love the way you talk. I love the way you talk. You are. You are.

[B]

It's all wrestling promo. The piano is the piano. It's organic, it's acoustic. But then you get on a keyboard, and I'm staring at Josh's keyboard here, and the sounds and the tweaks you can get out of it are fascinating. And with an electric organ, when you can you compress. Is that a pedal as well? They have those things that you can do on that.

[A]

Sure, I got that.

[B]

And it became a new instrument for these guys. And you could see them talking about how it changes how they play. It felt like a kid opening up a Christmas present, going, what can I do with this? For the rest of the today, the next month, the next year, the next lifetime. It changed something that they were already astute at, and they had to relearn it in a way, and they were fascinated by it.

[A]

You live. You live literally, what, 20 blocks down from where this was recorded.

[B]

What streets was it on?

[A]

49th East 52nd Street, Midtown. It's. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's. It's a good hand job place there now.

[B]

Okay, let's put that out there for the cops. Get there.

[A]

Right on. Rub Tug Quarterly.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, it's. You know, I think. Well, let's. Let's do this. Do you want to. You want to, like. Because, I mean, we might have talked about it, but I feel for this record, you know, when you're talking about something, oh, we did Sketches of Spain. When you're talking about something like Sketches of Spain, you could see it fits in with what he was doing. And he wanted to work with Gil Evans. You know, these are. He did Porgy and Bess, Sketches of Spain. You know, he had his evolution of music. So I feel like for. To get there, I want to make sure we make. We just mention, like, the. The. The evolution of how he got there. Before we start getting into this record, I feel like. I feel like that's an important thing because Miles. What I love about Miles Davis, and I've said this on the podcast about the artist that I love, and I know we've talked about this is that you start here and you end way the. Over there. Radiohead, the Beatles. You know, I could. I could name a million bands that. That have done that, that are. That are pushing the boundaries, changing with the times in a way that is

[B]

not changing before the times change.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it. That's what I meant. It's because. Because it's not. They're doing something like Radiohead did something before everybody else is doing it. But all they were really doing is going back and doing old Pink Floyd and shit like that. On their level.

[B]

They come from this. Tom York will also tell. I mean, Tom York has been quoted of saying that. That a lot of. Okay, Computer. He took influence from Brew.

[A]

Oh, my God. Yes. I'd say that on King of Limbs more than anything. It's so. So out there that you are. You're just like. I mean, it's a mess. But then it comes together, which as we get into talking about the record deeper in. This is kind of what this record is. It's like. It's messy, messy, messy. And then, whoa, whatever they did right there, can they do that for another five minutes? Because they don't. And now that's over. So. All right, so let's talk about the road to Bitches. Brew. I'm going to cut out all the mishpigosh. I'm going to cut out the 1944. Him be going to Juilliard, which is right down the street from where you

[B]

too, the other way.

[A]

He's playing with Charlie Parker. 49 to 50. Participates in sessions that become basically the birth of cool, which is inventing. You know, when he's playing with Parker. That's bop or hard bop. Is that like. I think there's. It's. It's.

[B]

I always get confused. What is called bop? And what is hard bop?

[A]

Bebop. So bebop in 44. Maybe hard, I'd say, because he goes bebop then into hard bop. And then. Then it would be Bertha Cool. Now you have cool jazz. And it's more subtler. Subtler textures and unusual orchestration. Early 50s. He's a heroin addict or struggling with it. Kicks. It rebuilds his career. 54 the Walking Sessions style. Just a major figure in hard bop, everybody. Sorry. We actually jumped ahead on the bop, where he's a bop guy. I love this. He says he's understanding. Spacious trumpet style increasingly contrasts with the more virtuistic. Play every note, you know, before the bartender closes. I love that approach. 55 Newport helps him. He has a performance here. It helps him relaunch himself to the highest level and leads towards Columbia Records forms his first great quintet. John Coltrane, Red Garland, Paul Chambers, Philly Joe, Jo Jones records the famous run of Prestige Records including cooking, relaxing, working and steaming. He knew what the he was doing signs with Columbia 57 does a Gill Evan stuff. 58 milestones. He's moving towards modal which is a more simplistic jazz three notes. It's what it's the soloing that is there. The rest of the band is following that. Those three note structure was my favorite class was history of jazz. So I. I love modal and I love slow jazz. It's Marin said I love there's nothing better than slow blues. I think there's nothing better than slow jazz. Oscar Peterson Trio. Go fuck yourself. Amazing. So then milestones Porky and best in 58. Then kind of Blue with the greatest collection of jazz artists in the history of jazz. In my opinion. Coltrane, Cannonball Adderley, Bill Evans, Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers, Jimmy Cobb. Comes the most celebrated jazz record ever. Then Sketches of Spain in 60s. All right. So I up that timing. Then builds the second great quintet. Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter, Tony Williams. Dismantling. They begin to dismantle traditional assumptions about rhythm accompaniment form from inside acoustic jazz albums esp. Now you're getting weirder. Miles smiles Sorcerer Nefertiti. He's starting to increasingly use the free rhythmic interaction. He starts paying attention to the younger music. And that's kind of where we're at around right now. Rock, soul and funk are taking audiences by storm. And jazz once commanded them. They have lost them. And now he's hanging out with Bette Davis. Really. It's his personal music connection. Betty Davis also excuses him further to temporary fashion.

[B]

It's not the Betty Davis you think it's.

[A]

It's different Bette Davis.

[B]

I'm looking up her actual maiden name. She always gets referred. It's Mabry because I knew her again there. So he married this unbelievable. Just a firebrand of a woman.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Betty Mabry. They're together. They're married a year. She becomes Bette Davis. He produces her album which is kind of a rock album. Years ago when I cared about the Discover Weekly on Spotify. They they. I ended up downloading her cover does a decent job. A Politician by Cream. And you can hear Miles go now get. Get the chewing gum out your mouth, bitch. Like it's crazy. As he's producing it. And she turns him on so he's like everyone else in jazz at that point. I don't want to speak for everyone, but I will. They hated rock and all this mainstream shit going on and they could see the writing on the wall that. That jazz was becoming more of a niche after years. People forget that jazz was a popular very music.

[A]

It was. It's one of the true American art forms, man. Started here. And many. You could say it started in. In Kansas City, Chicago, New Orleans, I mean a million places. But. But it is the one thing that America and Europe. Europe still loves it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

More than us, actually.

[B]

Probably now that's where you can make money.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, it's a. Oh, dude, it's. I was in. I was in France and you would see the guys on the. On the metro just with their cases and you'd be like, ah, there's like, there's a session going pretty dope, right? Oh, it's amazing. And I see it here in New York. New York appreciates it. So yes, dc, like Blue's Alley, place like that. But I mean, you go out to fucking Des Moines, Iowa, there's a jazz club and it's like, it's fucking Kenny G territory, baby.

[B]

It seems like it's getting better because of a live experience is what people want now that. So there's that. So Bette Davis turns him on because she's younger. Hendrix and Sly Stone and he's like, oh, and I want to say around this time too, Earth, Wind and Fire, like he gets. And he also sees that they're playing arenas and they're selling records and there's people, young people are lined up to see them. So he's like, well, why can't I do this? And then. So this is probably one of the reasons why people initially slogged this record for being pop. I mean, there's people who called him a prostitute for doing this. He's a sellout. It's hilarious to go back and look at reviews of him being called a sellout now. I guess in one sense, yes, because he's the popular music was this electric music and rock music. But there's nothing mainstream about anything on this goddamn record.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At all. At all. And yet he was like, what a sellout with your pop nonsense. And it's like boopap. It's just crazy, obvious, avant. Borderline. I'm. It's not even borderline. There's some absolutely horrifying and creepy moments to this record. Yeah, I'm going to put this out here too. I mean, I have Shades of this throughout the notes. When we go through the tracks. 70 soundtracks to me come out of this. Like as I'm listening to this, doing the prep work again, extensively.

[A]

I love that you do that, man. I love having you on. It really is.

[B]

We were going to do something. We do it.

[A]

Yeah, we do.

[B]

If I'm going to. If we're going to go cliff diving, I'm going to have some trunks.

[A]

We should free base cocaine. To really listen to this record.

[B]

I think you should have fun by yourself. We should do it. I think I'm busy that night. So it's tonight. My mom's me from the dead.

[A]

I got supper. You got 7:30 at Gotham.

[B]

So she. Okay, so.

[A]

So basically she. She turned him on a style. She turned him on into this. Yes. But also like he could see it. Like you said, Sly in the Family Stone, James Brown. Music is. I mean, this is. It's the funkiest it's ever been.

[B]

It's cool and psychedelic and so this is a psychedelic record. But what I was trying to say is this reminded me. If I close my eyes and listen to this record, it reminds me of being a kid watching the UHF station. And they. These movies that were clearly coming from Italy, that were horror movies or crime movies, or even just American film. I hear the soundtracks of even Death Wish, of even parts of Dirty Harry, of Dario Argenta's, which was. You know, Goblin is this great band that does all these horror movies in Italy. A lot of Argentos, and clearly they're influenced by this. You close your eyes and that's what it is. This becomes a lot of Galio and Italian soundtracks in the 70s, which are very stylistic films, comes from this. Tell me they don't come. Well, there's elements, yes, but that might even come from more of the conventional R and B of that in the funk. But I think in Europe in particular, they really came to this. This where it's just where the. With the. The keys and the synths, with the. With the bell sounds and all that and the boo doo doos. Boy, did I really convey anything by going, boo doo doo. People know what the hell I'm talking about.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

But in the tweaks from the guitars and some of the minimal moments that the musicians do in this becomes to me, go find, go look. Go, go, go find some of these Argento soundtracks from the 70s, everybody, that goblin did. And tell me you don't hear this, I'll do this. And it's fascinating music, but to me. And that's what's funny that this is a pop sellout. No, this is music to get murdered to a lot of it.

[A]

Well, you know, I think, I think to really fully understand this record, it's like you, it's because he inches into this. He doesn't, he doesn't dive headfirst. He gracefully falls into the bathtub as, as some would say with like, Phyllis to Kilimanjaro, then going into it in a silent way. You know what I mean? So he's, he's pushing it towards that.

[B]

Which is a space record. And this album's very spacey too.

[A]

Yeah, but this, but this becomes more

[B]

aggressive than in a silent way.

[A]

I mean, dude, if the idea of listening to this record on a psychedelic is a bad trip waiting to happen, except those moments where it comes together and you're like, it does.

[B]

I can only imagine, dude, it's, it's, it is.

[A]

And I, and it's that, you know, listen, I, I, you said it perfectly of, of why this record was hated. And I think that as a person, like, I would never give anybody this record until you've been listening to Miles or jazz in general for at least 10, like a. Why do you. There's 95 balls in this apartment. Why do you do this? There's one ball under the thing. Are you getting mad because you're a big fan of brew and you loved it when I turned you onto it. Let's. Who knows? Yeah. Like a word on the street is you hated Miles when he did this. No, but I, I, I. So I think there's kind of like, you know, this guy in 25 years went from Charlie Parker, cool jazz, hard bop, modal jazz, post bop, electric fusion, all in, in, in. That's incredible. Reinventing. And, and to do something like this, I mean, of course it's going to get shit on or it's going to be, you know, either it's universally accepted immediately as a groundbreaking or he breaks every rule in the fucking game.

[B]

And this is why he has In a Rolling Stone. This is pop, rock, R and B magazine, pop culture online magazine, whatever you want to do. Now he has two goddamn jazz records in the 100 as we started this, right in the top 100. Why is he, let's just say it out here. Why? Because he's not a jazz musician. He's a musician and he wanted to

[A]

keep creating, I think music. No, I think, I think why. And it's, and it's noticing this is that Miles is not. Miles has surpassed the idea of being a musician. He is a. He is a way of life of. He is a. He is a human that is now a. A word that is in. You could say, oh, you're being. That's because it's cool. He's cool.

[B]

Well, you're saying, oh, so he. Yes. I think he is more of an entity at this point. I am saying the career when he's alive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He wasn't looking at himself as being a jazz. As I am a jazz musician, which is what people do. And people do. Comics do this too. I'm a. This. This. He is. I'm a musician. I'm going to play the music. I feel at this moment, in the moment in time that I want to and I want to challenge myself and I want to keep pushing things, you know, he said when he told the guys, you know, play what you want as long as they're within the chords in this. Right. He wanted to see where they went. He was as intrigued where he was as a band leader and a performer and as someone who could gather talent. Where will it go? He didn't have like a full. He didn't think these were going to sound this way. And we'll get to it. A lot of this is production, which people don't understand.

[A]

And it really. It's. This is another one of those big records where the studio becomes an instrument, its own instrument. And. And I. And I think, you know, we talked about. Well, we haven't talked about it yet in. Because we haven't done Pet Sounds. But as we've been inching towards it, like, we're like almost. We've had a couple. We did like Smile and some other things. And I think the record right before that one, the Beach Boys, where he started playing around with that. The Beatles did it. Everybody. You know, Miles and I may just be repeating something you're saying is. Is. There's a. There's this crucial bridge where he's getting together with Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, who's Zion all his first name. Joe's albino. Is it Joe? I'll figure it out. I have it somewhere. Don't worry. Don't. Don't worry. And John McLaughlin and becomes a crucial bridge. Yeah. To this full electric period. He later. McLaughlin later recalled Miles giving famously cryptic instructions designed to break musicians out of their habits. That is the kind. It's that. That expression, you know, where he says, it's not about the note. It's not the note. It's. It's the. It's the attitude that you play it or it's like. It's not the notes you are playing, it's the notes that you're not playing. Yes.

[B]

But there. And there's a lot of attitude in this and this passion to this.

[A]

And he wanted. He's changing how musicians create. Instead of composing everything in a conventional detail, he creates frameworks for improvisation. And then also. Which we'll get to the editing room. Becomes part of the compositional process. And the result is.

[B]

Bro, the producer. I'm gonna screw up the name. Brilliant. What he did in the production of this.

[A]

I was right. It was Joe's albino. Yeah. You wanted. You want to talk about. You want to. Do you want to go into some tracks?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You excited? Are you feeling. This is Palm.

[B]

This is great.

[A]

I mean, this is my favorite episode I've ever done. I'm not lying.

[B]

Well, this is.

[A]

I love having you on.

[B]

And this is fun for me to quote, unquote, research for the. You know, the weekend and the last couple days because this music is inspiring. So it's also great to then when I go do my shows, how I feed myself and keep the lights on is you're inspired because you're listening to pure creativity and chances and people allowing themselves to fail, which is how you ultimately succeed.

[A]

100%. But that's a big. I mean, he's at a place in his career. We can do whatever he wants. You know what I mean? It's like. It's not like the guy is. This is early on. You know what I mean?

[B]

Well, I don't know how he was financially at this point. I know he was definitely broke.

[A]

Let me find out.

[B]

A few years before.

[A]

Yeah, let me find out. Hold on. How much money did Miles Davis have before making in the mid-70s?

[B]

He goes on a hiatus for roughly about eight years.

[A]

See? Let's see. Internet tell us. Here we go. It says frustrating. We can Estab. Miles is already very successful established jazz star, but Brew moved him into a different. Obviously signed to Columbia. I mean, I mean, it's nothing to sneeze at, but, you know, touring internationally, one of jazz's most prestigious. Blah, blah, blah. 69. He was driving a Ferrari when he was shot outside of Brooklyn nightclub. So he's in a Ferrari, you know, let's say 1969. That's got to be at least $15, you know, 15 years. You think. Do you think like in the.

[B]

The.

[A]

Like the 1700s, they were like. I mean, the way they talk about Elon Musk now. He's a trillionaire. He's like, changed. This guy's got 100 bucks.

[B]

It is crazy, though, when you see what. When you put in the difference. Like, when someone got a royalty check for, like, $14,000 in, like, 1965. That's like a half a million dollars.

[A]

I know, I know.

[B]

You could buy things with that.

[A]

Oh, dude, it's. That's. It's insane. So. All right, so here's what I got. It says he was. He wasn't. He wasn't selling the records on the scale of other rock artists like you said he was. He was jazz famous. And that's what makes this record crucial, because it says Miles. Official site says it surpassed 100,000 copies, which at the time was considered an extraordinary sales figure for a jazz recording. Ultimately went platinum. Immediately afterward, financial leverage increased significantly. 71 Columbia contract fully paid him 100,000 a year for three years, plus royalties. That's. That's roughly 800,000 a year in 2026. But Miles was not some starving jazz musician gambling his last 20 bucks on bitches Brew. He was already one of the biggest names in jazz, which was. Wasn't risking poverty, just his reputation. All right, and the gamble worked. So, yeah, let's. Let's dive in. Let's talk about some of these tracks, dude. Banana, man, while I find my notes. Banana. I could do this album, Which are noises I've made on psychedelics to the dog. I've done that once. I was, like, making, like. I was, like, watching, like, me. I went to Jim Jeffries, and we were taking a bunch of mushrooms over the pandemic. And. And then I me would just keep eating and eating, and I wasn't feeling it. And then his buddy was like, hey, I'm gonna leave. Do you want to ride? I go, yeah. And then we got in his car, and we got on the 101, and I was. I literally thought I was in Tron. I was like, my God, I ate way too much.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it all hit me. And then I got home, and I just started, like, talking in weird languages to the dog. And I think she understood all of it. All right. Opens with Pharaoh's Dance, composed by Joe Zawin. All 20 minutes long.

[B]

Yes. So this was a double album with vinyl. And this is one side. This is the whole side A. Yeah, yeah. And the title track that we'll get to next is side this is a

[A]

warning that normal rules have been suspended.

[B]

Well, then. But now. So this will show the. The influence. This is what's crazy. So sellout, right? Sellout. Well, this is album Oriented rock is. Is kind of starting now where people would just play one side of a record or you could do a long song. This is before they realized. Let's get back to hits in that, you know, this album ends up selling because of underground DJs and that. And you know, FM's still kind of new at this point. Relatively new.

[A]

Used to be AM people don't we talk about it on the podcast. But AM used to be the shit.

[B]

And so they play sides of this. And so this kind of hit people kind of like, you know, you hear. So this comes out in 70, right? You got the third Zeppelin album coming out that year. You've had two Blues Out Zeppelin records. You had Cream set for several years before that you had Hendrix with some of these longer in the jam. This is kind of in a way, and I'm not a drug guy, but I'm assuming if you're doing drugs in 1970 and you hear these long ass tracks aids better than a lot of the prog rock that was coming out there. That what people were getting into and melting their minds. And so that's how it picked up. I mean this is slow. This album was a slow burn that got to 100,000 and then got to half a million going gold. And so Pharaoh's Dance. Pure psychedelia craziness. There we go. Now this. Okay, you ready? I have some weird descriptions that I've written and I'm going to do non linear, which I think is fitting for this record. I love this record's very nonlinear.

[A]

Fix it in editing just like Marcelo does.

[B]

Pharaoh's Dance sounds like an Egyptian God's tea party around the 11th minute. Pure chaotic bliss. Only word to use to describe. This is extraordinary. I wrote it in all caps. Feels like ascending to another plane. Like not even another planet, another plane of existence.

[A]

I wrote. I wrote this track. Sounds like a dance where everyone at the wedding immediately understands. Oh shit, cocaine's here.

[B]

Well, and. And that could be argued in a lot of these tracks of where it just sporadically will pick up out of nowhere. That's why when people describe this as an aggressive record, there is just pure aggressiveness. It's almost like they're trying to punch a God.

[A]

Wow. Really? I love that you said that. That is so apt.

[B]

That's what they're doing.

[A]

And there's just 20 minutes of that, which is. It's hostility. It's like. This is hard. I'm sorry, I'm chewing Tic tacs because I can't smoke right now. And I. I mean, it. It's like, it's all. This is not easy. Like most albums are like, here's our single, right? And Miles is like, nah, man. Egyptian electrical anxiety. Good luck.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, with Sellout.

[B]

I'm gonna say this after every track that we describe as being some psychedelic meltdown. And they'll be, remember, sell Out. This is Sell out, this pop album to a lot of purists in 1970. Sell out. Think about the words that we just used to describe this track. What makes you think that that's Brenda Lee singing what was hers. Sorry, sorry. Was that her? I mean, there's too many leads.

[A]

It could be like every day things are going.

[B]

Which is a wonderful pop song.

[A]

I mean, it's one of the best ever. Nowhere close, but I. I think, you know, so it's. And by the way, we.

[B]

We.

[A]

We didn't. We mentioned him and we keep saying this, but. But what's really important about this is Teo. Teo's editing. He. So basically it's. It's. It's. Basically, it contains extensive spices, loops restructuring. Stop start architecture isn't simply a document of. Of 20 uninterrupted minutes happening naturally in the room. It's like. It's incredibly important. You're simultaneously hearing improvisation and composition after the fact.

[B]

After the fact. And splice the old fashioned way. Splicing tape. Tape together.

[A]

Yeah. And play on a reel to reel. Fucking cutting it, putting it together, I'm assuming.

[B]

So there's three sessions, supposedly 10am to 1am the workday for these guys. And let's see. I have it here. The hours of material. I think it was like 20 hours. And he pieced it together. Yeah, sorry. You'll fix this in post.

[A]

No, we're actually leaving that. We're leaving that mistake.

[B]

Well, you leave them in nine hours of material. Nine hours of material. It took over a month of production to put it together, bro.

[A]

I bought the. When I bought. I bought the one that. All the sessions, like the one that's like. It's crazy. I don't have it anymore. I don't know what the fuck I did with it, but I had like the record. It was like. It was like. It was like. Like eight CDs of some shit. It's crazy. I want to ask you a question. It's like. Because you do a lot of, you know, I mean, it's what the style of stand up that you know, that you do. I do a lot of times. Improvisation. We find our final structure like afterwards, you know, it's like from what we might have improvised on stage as comedians. Does stand up ever work like that in a sense for you? Where you go on stage with a mess of ideas, improvise around them and only after like 10 performances realize, oh, that's what the bit actually is.

[B]

Episode 10, performing. There's still stuff I'm tagging from years ago that I bring back for certain things. And I realize, oh, I need to re cut this album because it's way better now.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it is.

[B]

Works in progress, you know. You know, they say we put all this faith in law and medicine. And I'm sure I've said this before, but they, lawyers and doctors are practicing their field. They're practicing artists. We're pract. I'm still practicing comedy. I'm professional. I get paid to do this. I do all right, but I'm still just pract. I'm trying to get better all the time. And, and humans, we're just practicing life if we're being factual about it. So when you look at it that way, you're just trying to keep progressing with it and to, to get to a better place.

[A]

What album?

[B]

So, so it's, it's constantly up. You're trying to perfect imperfection is what we're doing.

[A]

Okay, so if you're. We have to do Miles. I was going to say that Beatles might be easier because it's more. I think people might understand that. But let's do Beatles.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

What album are you on right now in your life, in your career?

[B]

Oh, Jesus Christ. I'm probably on a Yoko album where she's just screaming.

[A]

That's my favorite thing ever with Chuck Berry. They're jamming and spectacular. No, realistically, what would you say? Where are you? Where are you? Are you rubber solenoid? Are you getting a little bit more revolver? I think I'm probably. I think I'm about to hit sergeant Pepper.

[B]

Well, that's interesting. You know what, man? I've been doing this a long time, so I should be somewhere in the back. You know how I feel right now? I feel like I'm getting tighter. Finally. After years of being looser and ad libbing a lot and crowd work, I'm now really getting to a tighter set. And I used to kind of won't say judge that, but I didn't think that was for me. Yeah, I'm getting there. So you know where I'm at? I'm in Hamburg. The 10,000 hours are paying off finally.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

Really paying. I am, I Am doing the set and just there to try and hit the audience as much as I can.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

Hold this.

[A]

I'm gonna get her ball.

[B]

She needs the ball.

[A]

Know. I know, I know.

[B]

Oh, babies.

[A]

Oh, which one? There's nine under one of them. That one.

[B]

The.

[A]

Is that.

[B]

All right?

[A]

I'm going to plug this. Can I use this? Are you Chaos?

[B]

That's not me. Hey, buddy. That's what it is.

[A]

Sorry. Here we go.

[B]

All right.

[A]

There we go. There we. Yeah. Where were we? Oh, yeah. The second song. We don't have to do every song. Let's do. There's not many title tracks, right? Yep. Brew. 27 minutes. 27 minutes, 19 edits in this.

[B]

He.

[A]

They say. He. You know, it's funny. He's like. He probably heard the phrase radio single and was like, all right, you guys. Just like, this is an insult. What is a single? This piece opens in this, I would say, ritualistic, ominous space. Miles's trumpet almost sounds like a voice, you know, calling into, like a really big cave. And by the clearest demonstrations of the album's philosophy, this track repetition doesn't mean nothing is happening.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that's fair.

[A]

And I think the small changes become bigger because the background is so hypnotic in that this is all the stuff I wrote.

[B]

It is quite hypnotic.

[A]

And I said, I. I think. And I. I think Miles. I wouldn't. He's not. He doesn't give a. About impressing you with like. With like a lot going on with the constant activity of this. The musicians. But he waits and then it's like. It's like Jordan, dude. He's like Michael Jordan in this song. You know what I mean? He's, like holding the ball. He's waiting for the shot. He's letting the defense, everybody open up a good quarterback. And then he's just like, there it is. Boom. And then he hits it and he strikes and. And, you know. And then sometimes you get that huge rhythm section. It's almost create something closer to like a landscape than traditional accompaniment.

[B]

But it also seems like he's waiting to have something to say.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[B]

Why play if you don't? Because none of this is just, hey, I can play these runs. Hey, I can play these notes. Hey, I know scales. It's a voice. You said it. It's a voice. The trumpet's a voice in this. He's yelling a lot of the times. He is waiting to express himself. This isn't just, look at how talented I am. I'm telling you how I feel through the way that I prefer to my lips on this trumpet with this band playing around me.

[A]

And then also, once again, it's. You got to give it up to the producer is the post production is what is part of the composition. Like we said, you know, in the first song, he uses echo editing and manipulation to create all that supernatural atmosphere associated. And it's. It's why bitches Brew becomes relevant for like, far outside of jazz. And because it's not like. It's not like let's accurately record a great jazz band. Let's make sound. Let's make a sound that could never exist exactly like this outside the recording. And I think that's what's interesting about it. It's. It's. And to name the record this, it says Miles wanted Brew badly enough that Macero sent Columbia management a memo in 69, essentially reporting the title and asking them what to do about it, which is hilarious.

[B]

Very funny.

[A]

Miles accidentally created the world's first email from hr. You know what I mean? But, yeah, I mean, but it's like imagine. Hey, guys. So Miles Davis wants to call it Brew. Please advise.

[B]

And Brew is the verb. That's what people don't realize. And the. I mean, it's a derogatory term towards women sometimes it's empowerment. Depends on who says it. You know, it could be Betty, could be several people. But they're brewing something. They're putting together some kind of a black magic, some kind of sensational magic. Oh, it feels magic.

[A]

I don't know. Another name of an album like this on this kind of music that fits so perfectly. That's the way it's like radio. Okay. Computer. It just sounds like.

[B]

Sounds like what it is.

[A]

It sounds exactly what it is. And what's the comedy equivalent of finally getting enough career leverage to say, no, this is what I'm doing. You guys figure out how to sell it.

[B]

Well, I don't know. Comedy can be different. I mean, it might come back to the day the laughter died Dice, which is, in a way, is a jazz album. And it's psychedelic and it's just throwing it out there and not caring. And it's an experiment. It's an album that's impacted my life. Some could argue for the worse, but that we could discuss that another time. So I think that could be the equivalent.

[A]

Then I'm gonna give you high cholesterol. Really? Yeah. I mean, I. I was thinking about that is like what comics could call their shots like that. I mean. I mean, guy Started with Gerard. He could. I mean, he's going to hbo. He's like, this is what I want to do.

[B]

Well, that could. That's an interesting. Yes. But what he's doing. Absolutely.

[A]

You know, I don't think it's a valid. Yeah, I think. I think someone like a Mulaney at this point, I. I think Bill kind of can do that. I think. But I also think that, you know, it's, you know, more deserving. He could do it if he wanted to, but I don't think Bill.

[B]

The experimentation at comedy is very difficult. I mean, Harlan Williams did that special at the Grand Canyon or a mountain. But this is the point. Now look at this. People have done some of these. I don't want to say it dies on the vine or goes into the ether, but it doesn't become this. Making an experimental comedy album isn't the same as an experimental music. Yeah, it's worth a shot. I mean, it's. I have three albums. I have one that's experimental. Ish. That's probably my best one. I feel fortunate, but, I mean, it's. No one cares.

[A]

Well, now, but soon. I mean, you know, once podcast comes out, I mean, it's gonna change everything, bro.

[B]

Everybody, which I'm. My last jobs. We built like this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We put it all out and then we put it together. It becomes an art collage.

[A]

I love that you did that.

[B]

Isn't it crazy?

[A]

It really is.

[B]

Check spot, everybody. And if you do Album of the

[A]

year 20, go see him. He's hosting nine shows tonight, 1345, tomorrow, smoke crack. Yeah, it's freebase, dude. We're not. We're not. We're not low. We're not low. Like, we're highfalutin. All right, let's do. Let's do Spanish key.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

17 and a half minutes recorded in the same studio. Studio B. Probably the albums I wrote. The album's nastiest groove.

[B]

That's what it is. So I wrote sounds like something. And I kind of hinted at this earlier, but here's the first time I wrote it on the notes. Sounds like something out of an Italian film in the 70s that starts as a crime pic and becomes a horror. Feels like you're traveling in a train or a car, and the driver, slash conductor, is the trumpet player. And sometimes he tells you that outside there are terrors. But eventually outside becomes wonders. Eventually, because a groove becomes a groove fest with McLaughlin laying it down builds to a psychedelic Latin groove. And I can hear the influence of Radiohead, specifically on this track completely agree with you.

[A]

I would also hear the James Brown influence.

[B]

Sure. Who's blowing up then?

[A]

Yeah, I, I really thought that was like, oh, there's the canal. I was like, there it is, baby. He's like, he's wearing it.

[B]

Kind of like reading notes with non linear, just blank sentences and blah blah blah and blah blah.

[A]

Just that, I mean it sounded like you knew what you were talking about. So that was a really good reading of. Of those notes.

[B]

Words I wrote. Yes.

[A]

I mean, I think, you know, look, it is, it is. Rather than using, you know. So I. This way I found is like rather using conventional song form chord progressions gives the musicians a modal riff based environment. So it's closer to kind of blue than we think. But let's rhythm become the organizing principle. So everybody doesn't need to be telling a different harmonic story. They need to find their place inside the groove. The result feels simultaneously loose and locked. And that's one of the great paradoxes of this record. It sounds like chaos until you listen to the rhythm section.

[B]

And it's amazing that he decided to do that. And who was it? The bass player? The electric bass player never played jazz. And that was kind of the key as well. Here, let's. I got him here. It's. Harvey Brooks was not a jazz player, but that's kind of something they. They wanted. Don't fall into these traps because we're not making a jazz album. We're making an album. We're making modern music. And God, it's just crazy. That much rhythm and it doesn't get clunky.

[A]

No. Well, I. This is the. I get a good question for you because I think like you. So basically this whole track works because everyone can be doing something different without fighting for the center, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you are one of the most respected hosts in the comedy game, especially in New York. You are one of the go to for not just big names and like, you know, but also the Cellar, your comedy club, Gotham, all of them, you're respected. Is that basically is this song like what a great comedy lineup feels like where everybody has their own voice, nobody's stepping on each other and somehow the differences make the entire show better because you've seen so many shows so you know, is it better to have like, you know.

[B]

Well, it's weird because with comedy I think a host should be unselfish and I'm probably in the minority of this.

[A]

You're very. Dude, you are. You. You run a tight ship. So you're.

[B]

Well, I look at the guy, I get accused of sounding like some kind of a communist or socialist, whatever. Not necessarily wrong Marxist, but the greater good people bought a ticket. If it's not a headliner, it's a showcase. I'm there to serve comedy as pretentious and self indulgent as that sounds. And so I want to put on a great show. Now all the other comics are going to do the best show for themselves, which they should. So it's weird. It's not. It can accidentally get there. I don't think all the comics are gonna go and say, let's just put on a show together. I think they might be like, I wanna do my thing. Some of them are probably trying to outshine the other acts before or after them and that. But sometimes the happy accident leads to it being perfection. And then sometimes it's a bunch of comics that all love each other. They look at the lineup, they're excited, they want to watch each other, they want to hear how the other one did.

[A]

Last Tuesday, is it last Tuesday? We were at the Gotham.

[B]

Oh, that was. And so that. That felt like that. And then you.

[A]

It was, it was. Let me just say, the lineup, it was incredible, man. Like, I mean, I felt just happy to be a part of it. Yeah, it was James hosting. Was it Jordan first? Jordan. Is it Jordan or Jordan Fisher?

[B]

Jordan Fisher.

[A]

Okay, Jordan Fisher, then. What? Nikki?

[B]

No, Glazer was there. Tim Dillon was there.

[A]

It was. Yeah, it was. But it went Mark, Mark Norman, Tim Dillon, Nikki Glaser, me. And I mean, I, I was. I know why I was booked, because I could go after those names and still. While doing the checks and still keep a good. Keep attention. Yes, but I mean, it was, it was. And it was one of those shows where I was like, I don't know if I. Like, I thought I bombed. And then you get off and everybody's like, you did great. You're like, oh, it's check drops.

[B]

I've heard other feedback saying good things about you to become.

[A]

Okay, thank God. Okay, thank God. Because the perfect joke would have been,

[B]

like, quite honest with you. Yeah.

[A]

No, but it was. It was. It's always fun. But that's like everybody in that lineup, we all watched each other. Well, I mean, they. The other guy, Tim stuck around for a little bit. Nikki stuck around for as much. But they have nine other shows to get to. But I mean, it just felt like it was a. It was a really big love fest. And when you have egos or what could be egos from comedians like that Big three of them. Three of the biggest working comics in the country. In the world. If not that, you know, all in the same lineup. It just felt like, hey man, we're just working out. We're all just. Yeah, I love that new joke. Blah blah blah. It felt really special. It was so. It kind of reminds me of this song.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you want to talk about John McLaughlin?

[B]

Yeah. Only track Miles is not on. It's pretty. He doesn't play on it.

[A]

Four and a half minutes.

[B]

It's the shortest. Track.

[A]

Named it after the guitarist. He. John had entered Miles's orbit during the In a Silent Way period. He later recalled being terrified during his early Miles experiences. Miles and giving him the wonderfully innate insane instruction to play as though he didn't know how to play guitar. Which reminds me of one of the early records we did and we've talked about it. The Eddie Hazel guitar solo in Maggot Brain. Play like your mom. You just found out your mom died.

[B]

And now in the second half you get another letter. She might be alive.

[A]

I thought she came back to life.

[B]

It could be. And I think it's been told different ways. But it's. It's. I thought the way I heard it was she might be alive.

[A]

But I think this is. I think this song is why Miles is. And is, you know. Is an incredible band leader. Is. If not one of the best.

[B]

He doesn't have to plan the goddamn track.

[A]

But. No, but it's not just amazing. But he's hiring these musicians that are some of the greatest technicians alive. Right. And then he tries to tell them to forget the technique that they understand. Because technique can become a habit. And Miles wanted the reaction. And I think that's what's important about. About Miles. It's like that story that Herbie Hancock has where he says I was playing and I up thinking Miles is gonna be mad at me. And instead because he's so present and understands the instrument and hears what every guy is doing. Miles just adjusted and didn't get mad at him. He thought he was. He thought he was doing that on purpose to. To make Miles well.

[B]

He wanted everyone to react. He wanted people to be on their toes and listening to each other.

[A]

I know. I know. It's. It's improv. It's. It's. It's. It's watching like the greatest, you know, comedic improv. Yeah. And basically McLaughlin goes on and does what the Mahavish New Orchestra. Another. Another one of Fusion's defining bands.

[B]

A legendary guitar player.

[A]

Yeah. And he gets in they play together. Miles Beyond. Two jazz geniuses naming songs after each other because he named his song Miles Beyond. Yeah, dude. All right, let's get to my favorite track on this record.

[B]

Well, let's, I, I, I think we both agree on this.

[A]

It's probably the, it's probably the pop single just because of that opening.

[B]

And it's the only song. This is, this is no edits. This is played through.

[A]

Probably it's the best title for sure on the record. Miles runs a Voodoo Down. What a great. Like, you know, Mad Dog runs the Voodoo Down. Josh Adams goes to the buffet. I'm take that one. All right. It also, this also, this is the funkiest title in jazz history. It confirms that Miles Davis has reached the level of cool where he can put his own name in the title of his own song.

[B]

Yes. You know, third person Ricky Henderson's this is.

[A]

This album is halfway depending on being a jazz LinkedIn page. You know what I mean? It's just like, let's, it's, it's also this, this track is heavy blues funk feeling. Miles closer to the earthy groove vocabulary he'd been absorbing from funk and rock. And here's a fantastic studio story. Thank you. Internet percussionist Don Alias, best known primarily as a hand percussionist, ended up playing drum kit on Miles Runs of Voodoo Down. Miles official archive specifically identifies his drum performances on Brew. Oh, isn't that nice? Accounts of the session say Miles wanted a particular marching, New Orleans flavored rhythmic feeling. And Alias delivered the groove. Miles move, baby. Surround yourself with legendary drummers, then hear something from the percussion guy. This is one of those tracks that modern listeners frequently single out as her favorite. Yeah, it's, it's, it's Spectrum. Everything we said. Yeah, it's, it's, it's not, it's not even debatable. Like, this is probably Radiohead fans also said this is. They have also noted its later appearances in sample based World around Kinetic. Yeah, off of. I'm, I'm pretty sure that's off Kind of a King of Limbs. So as an mc, which is almost its own instrument in comedy, when did you realize hosting wasn't just the guy who says who's next, but an actual skill you could become dangerous at?

[B]

Well, that's interesting. I don't know when it came about, but it just, it just feels, it, it feels like another position to me on the team, you know, it's just, it's, it's, I'm not just there to hit the ball. I feel like the catcher, you Just feel like you're your own specialty, like a goalie is or something like that. And so it has its own mark if you're willing to accept it. You know, a lot of people aren't.

[A]

And I mean, it's. It's selfless. Like, it's. Because it's. But it's also like when you're good at something. Because I. I've hosted and I. I like hosting my own shows, like I love. Yeah. Because I. Then I feel like I could do

[B]

time, and that's a different thing.

[A]

Yeah. I do the Comedy Store. I'm doing the Jam. I mean, I could go too long, but I think there is. It's. It is a skill. I always hated it when I never understood why they would put the younger comics as the host.

[B]

It's like, Europe doesn't do that.

[A]

No, it's. The better could do black rooms. The best comic is usually the host. Tony Baker, Ray Grady, like Martin Lawrence. It's. It's like you. You want the, The. Because I, I. I love when Michael Che was a. I might. We might have talked about this. I may have said it on the pod, but I'll repeat myself and tell me if I did. Is that he was talking to this younger comic who'd been doing it. I mean, realistically, a month, two months we were out front of this. The stand smoking a cigar, and the guy's trying to talk about what he's. What he wants to talk about on stage. Well, I was talking about religion and this. And Mike goes, dude, just get comfy in the car, dude. You're the emcee, man. You're. You know what I mean? You're the driver of a car.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And this is. And this is. And this is like, really just. We're doing a set, which is too. But as the host, you are really the driver of the car. And you're. You're the Uber driver and. Or the cab driver. And you have to make sure it's a smooth, not bumpy ride where they can check their phone and be comfortable and feel at ease because you are steering the ship. Because if you're Herky Jerky, like a new comic would be, the show can eat a dick.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And it makes no sense to me why anybody would do that. And it's. Why, like, sd. I mean, I see it. A lot of the comics she has up there are some of the guys that. You're like, these guys are just doing sets. You sim. Like Matt Richards. I mean. I mean, Matt Richards does do us he does five sets.

[B]

He does his thing, and I love him.

[A]

I'm not putting him down. He's one of my favorite comics to watch. But I think there is a. You know, it is a. There is. You are on a tight ship, but you set it up. You make sure. And I've seen you vent. I've seen you get frustrated when. When a comedian might be running behind or runs the light. It's like you want to. You want to make sure you're paid to do this and do the job. And it's so. It's.

[B]

Look, man, also, people spend their hard earned money. I mean that at the end of the warmup, people spent their hard earned money in a complicated economy.

[A]

Wait, it's doing bad right now?

[B]

The economy's not great. I think we're probably in a recession. You know, it takes a couple of quarters for them to announce we're in a recession.

[A]

At least it ain't a fogging. What's. What's below a recession?

[B]

A depression.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Let's hope it doesn't get to that. But so, you know, you want to give people what they paid for, you know, and that's why you should play with heart, and that's why this record's great, because you're playing with heart and people are listening and reacting with heart. And that's the beauty of it.

[A]

Kind of like this podcast.

[B]

Yeah, we're playing notes here as well. We should.

[A]

You know, we should. What we should have done is we've remembered we're going to do non linear. We should have done it out of order.

[B]

Out of order. Why are we doing all right still doing its thing.

[A]

Well, guess what? On the way that I downloaded it, Sanctuary actually is the first track and we're going to. So Sanctuary, composed By Wayne Shorter, 11 minutes, the final piece on the original record. And like I said, there is a lot more out there. Everybody, if you. I'm curious. I'm actually very curious of the listeners. I want the listeners to tag us. Or reach out to B and James and let us know if you actually listen to this record in its entirety. This is not an easy listen. You know, I bet there's a certain place if you don't know jazz the way that, like, I mean, I've studied it. I'm not. I wouldn't call myself at all like, you know, I'm a jazz guy. I know the greats. I know some deeper cuts. I know you. You say I play this song. I know the majority of them. Maybe I could sing the melody A little bit of some of the famous stuff, but, you know, and I know the history to a point, like, I don't sound like an idiot, but this is a hard, hard listen to somebody, especially if. If you're doing this podcast and it's like, if you're like me, and let's say you never listened to jazz before and you didn't listen to those other albums that we talked about beforehand that led to this. You know what I mean? Can you get through this? Is. I mean, it reminds me of the. Kyle Kanane reminds me of metal box by PiL.

[B]

Oh, interesting that you went with that.

[A]

Well, you know why? Because when I heard that we, you know, I had Kyle Kanane, it was on the list. And if. If any of the people that have been listening since the beginning, it was one of the first few ones we did on Spotify. And I mean, Kanane, it's. It's. It's. I remember I hated it. And that was back when I would listen to each record nine, 10 times and then talk about, how could you consume myself? I wouldn't go to another record, you know, if. If the pot. If I was stacked with episodes. And I had three weeks before the next recording. I only listened to that record. I didn't move on. I wanted to do. We don't do them out of order like we do them now for timing and, you know, and guest purposes. And I remember hating it because it was weird editing.

[B]

I think John Lydon would. Would. Would be happy that you hated it initially.

[A]

Oh, he would love.

[B]

He.

[A]

That's what he wanted. There's no way he made that record, considering going like this has got people that love. Sex Pistols are going to love this.

[B]

That record's arguably more punk than Never Mind the Bullocks.

[A]

It's. It's the brew. I said that. I said on the podcast, you can go back and quote me on it. I. I remember waking up one morning the night before being like, this is the worst album. I can't believe it's on the list. And then I woke up the next morning. We're not s. Humming, if that. I don't think there's anything on that record you can hum. But I. I was singing pop tunes. Pop tunes. I kept saying that over and over. And I put the record on again. It was a day of recording it with Kyle and I. And I remember. I remember I said, this is one of the greatest albums ever made. I got it and I understood it, but I gave it the time that it deserved and it needed And I don't think anybody else did that.

[B]

And you got another one of these coming up in the next six months. Year. I don't forget. What number was the one. The other one you've talked about with me doing. Potentially, it's a. One of those albums listed, too. And you. Absolutely. It's. It's hated.

[A]

What is it?

[B]

Trout Mouth? Trout Mask.

[A]

Oh. By.

[B]

By Captain Beefheart.

[A]

Oh, well, dude, that's a. I.

[B]

That's an album that some people have listened to 30 times, and then on the 31st goes. Oh, and it's. It's an album that some people still hate.

[A]

I think I told you about it. That's how I became friends with Tom Murillo. The night that we met at the Hollywood Improv. Through Ahmed. Ahmed. He was. He was. Eat a couple of drinks in him and he's like. And he told him I did this podcast. He pulled the list up and he'd. We just started getting. I can't think. He went to Captain Beefheart and he was like, how is this higher than that? I'm gonna see if I can get you and him on at the same time. Yeah, it's probably not gonna happen, but, you know, I'll try my best. What'd you do? I dropped my Tic Tacs. All right, here, let's finish up. Sanctuary.

[B]

Probably the most melodic song on the record.

[A]

Yeah, I think so. I think the. It's. It's a perfect closing title, Sanctuary, because after almost 90 minutes of bitches Brew, Sanctuary sounds pretty good. You know what I mean?

[B]

It's the way. It's the. You know, when on cd, there's another track. But this is how the vinyl, how this record came into the earth initially closes, and it's the perfect coda to it. I really didn't write too many notes on this one.

[A]

What do you got?

[B]

Well, I already said best melody of the. Of all the tracks. You ready for this? This is like a song you play at the end of a war.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Over the grave of your own. And. And the fallen people that you've taken.

[A]

Dude, it's literally what I had almost to the same thing, which is just like. It's like. This is almost like a reflection after the violence and density.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there is violence and density in this record. People need to really come to grips with that. We've said it, but the playing is there. There is carnage to this. It is a space horror crime film that is disguised as an experimental jazz fusion record. That's what this is.

[A]

And Big Ups also to Wayne. Like, I don't think everybody realized how crucial Wayne Shorter is Miles Story at a mental note.

[B]

It's like we haven't given him enough credit. That baritone sax. And there's some notes we didn't get to on that. That the sounds that he says is crazy. It's sometimes. What track did I write this down for? John McLaughlin. I wrote the last note I wrote on that. The sex sounds like it's hunting for trouble. He sounds like he's hunting a lot of the time.

[A]

Are you Robert Christow? Are you Robert Christo?

[B]

It's just between that and some of the electric piano playing, it sounds like. Like feet are stomping on Saturn. They're just like.

[A]

Yeah. But I think guys with Wayne, you know, because how cool is that that him and Joe get together and they create Weather Report after this. And it's really just almost like a little. They realize they can play together. But. But also Wayne is not just a saxophonist in the second great quintet. He's one of the central composers in conceptual minds. Like he is. He is as important to this record as. As Maceo and as Miles as anybody. And think about this dude. The guy who composed track one and the guy who composed track six eventually leave to form one of the most important fusion groups ever. So they. It's like this is the album's closing credits are basically like the opening credits for the next decade.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yeah. And this also can divide listeners precisely because it feels different from some of the nastier grooves that are around it. Even modern fans. Discussions have people defending it when some people rank it as last.

[B]

But it's. It's. This is when people made albums. This is a palate cleanse.

[A]

Yeah. It's like instead of like sports, people getting mad over quarterbacks. They're furious about the 11 minutes of Wayne Shorter.

[B]

Yeah. But I mean, this.

[A]

This is. This is.

[B]

We ate all this rich food. This is something to just.

[A]

It's aperitif.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So, you know, after this album built around chaos and you got a track called Sanctuary to close it out. What's Sanctuary? For a comedian who spent his entire adult life in clubs and in airports and green rooms and around other comics basically hysterically famous mentally ill people. Like, what do we do for relaxing?

[B]

This will be me, God willing, in my 60s doing voiceovers for animated series and just having a pool at that point. And maybe have started a family in my 50s. And I could.

[A]

We're never getting married, you and I, dude. We're dying alone. Let's end up together. How about that?

[B]

Why don't you take it it easy?

[A]

Talk about we'd have fun. We listen.

[B]

Have fun with your free basing.

[A]

We free basing. We listen to Weather Report.

[B]

Well, flip a coin like Harvey Dent. Later, we'll see how that goes.

[A]

I don't think that. I don't think. Does comedy ever stop being a sanctuary? Because I don't think it ever becomes a job. It's like we love it too much in the world. It's music, man. You know, look, dude, we can look. Can musician. Can a comic look as cool? I mean, even Shane Gill is coming. Well, Shane Gill is walking out too. Man, at the Lincoln Field. That was pretty rad. Chappelle can be a comedic. There are comedic rock stars. Dice, Daniel Simonson, comedic rock star. All right, that's my time, everybody.

[B]

What a great time.

[A]

No, hold on. It's.

[B]

We.

[A]

We gotta do our.

[B]

Oh, yeah, we gotta do that. And then I gotta.

[A]

Wait, no, we got you. You gotta give it 7:30. Oh, you got you your whole routine. No, no, I know.

[B]

I gotta meditate and I probably should put some food in my belly.

[A]

Sweet. No, no, please do it. I want to. Here. I want to get. I just want to get.

[B]

I have a wicked piss working right now.

[A]

Oh, off. Give me. I want to get the critics thing because I wanted to see if anybody. They changed their tunes.

[B]

Well, everyone did. Well, Downbeat had all this. It was the album of the year in downbeat 1970. And they put all this horrible out about him.

[A]

So Rolling Stone purists loved it. Extremely enthusiastic L. Langdon winner. He praised the records richness, argued that Miles's music was expanding in beauty and scale. Miles wasn't. Was. This isn't dumbing. Miles isn't dumbing jazz down. It's finding enormous new musical language. I. I think it's with the other albums we discussed. Dude, I'm so happy you've done the three big jazz records. Robert Christo, Village Voice named it the best album jazz album 70 and voted miles jazz man of the year. I mean, how could you not? And he cooled somewhat on it later though, eventually describing it as overflowing with brilliant ideas, but somewhat unfocused. You think? British reviewer. Who gives a fuck about that guy? But jazz world, like we said, deeply divided. Criticism wasn't simply this music sucks. It's. It's that question. It's. It's. I remember doing the history. History of jazz class and I remember them, the guy playing Zappa and going, is this jazz? And people saying, you know. No, and I was. A lot of. It's improvisation, you know what I mean? Or it's, it's, it's structured, but then there's improvisation there. That's. Which is what jazz is based off of, you know, but jazz.

[B]

I saw that quote in that documentary and I forget who said it. Jazz is a term, right? It's a term that. Is it from New Orleans? Is it from. This is going to shock people from like whorehouses where the woman would want. There'd be a guy playing piano while you're in the room with the john and they would speed through the song

[A]

because if they ended racist thing, that's a hundred.

[B]

They'd play it quicker. They'd be like, hey, put some jazz on this. Because I want it to, I want him to finish quick. That's where the term comes from. Put some jazz on it. Jazz it up. So that's, that's technically what it is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it evolves and changes throughout. So is it really what it was supposed to be?

[A]

I, you know, it's. Is, was, did, did Dylan sell out when he went electric?

[B]

Just grew. Why be limited?

[A]

I understand that, but I'm saying this is the equivalent of that, isn't it? Right?

[B]

No, absolutely is. The whole time we were talking about silly premises. When we look back at hindsight.

[A]

Why, dude. And listen, I'm not going to even put myself on the level of Miles Davis or anything of any sort whatsoever. So please, never, when I say this comes out of my mouth, please do not think that I am putting myself. I am not Miles Davis. I am Ornette Coleman. At least I, you know, what is stand up comedy? Does it have to be. Does it have to be just standing there? Can it be Bob Nelson? Nelson Schmelson? Can it be. I'm trying to think of some of the other out there guys. Can it be what I do? Yeah, Andy Kaufman. It doesn't make it Rick Glassman. It's like. Or something which is, you know,

[B]

in

[A]

the, in the family. You know, he's not, he's maybe not nuclear family of Andy Kaufman, but he's definitely an outdoor cat. Like, I think there is, is, is standup comedy, dude. I, I get judged if I sing or if I do something. Some comics on that and they, they say you're not doing stand up.

[B]

Well, magicians, there's always that stuff.

[A]

Bill always said to me, he goes, Dane would be killing. And the guy that had to follow him, we pacing going, this isn't even stand up. He's. He's not even telling jokes, and he's like. But he's doing his job. He's crushing. And I think that. I think that is still. It's, It's. It's art. It should never be limited to one thing. Oh, it has to be this. Now I understand. Baseball has to be. You got to do this. These are the rules. There are no rules to art. Hence Jason Pollock. Hence, you know, basket fucking Keith Haring. It is. It is radio. I mean, Radiohead, any of the bands that we've talked about, Pink Floyd, like,

[B]

Marlon Brando wasn't supposed to turn his back to the audience.

[A]

Marlon Brando was my dude. Marlon Brando took. Didn't take Ilya Kazan's direction in on the Waterfront when she dropped the glove, and instead of, like, needing it for the scene, he picks it up and instead of giving it to her, he puts it on his hand. That wasn't in the script. That's. That's. That is a guy living in the full moment and. And realizing that in this scene, in this world, this is what it is. And it's. It's completely. You know, it's. This backlash is such. And. And. And listen is. Do I like this record? No, I really don't. I'm not gonna lie. I don't. I'm not. I don't hate it, but I'm never. I wasn't looking forward to this and to really listen to this beforehand, like I said, I, as a guy, now making music and drawing a sample. I've got about 20 things I'm going to steal from this. I'm going to separate and pull. But. But I'll tell you right now, dude, it is. It is, it is, it is. I respect it, and I respect it more after doing this podcast.

[B]

You know, you don't have to love it, but you got to respect it. Huh? It's like something on the Sopranos. I might even like the record before.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

A little more. Might be even a little. As he dips his toes into this space. Electric music. I won't even say jazz. It's probably a little more palatable to eat, to consume. That being said, though, it's been quite enjoyable. Walking around the streets, listening to this madness and feeling the energy. It's a mad scientist record.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I enjoy that.

[A]

Is this an easier listen than. Because obviously Mask is going to be, well, Giants. I've never listened to them, so I'm very excited.

[B]

You're going to have to probably. I don't think it's on Spotify Now I think you're going to have to hunt it down on YouTube.

[A]

Okay. So is this okay? Because Giant Steps is easier to listen to.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Shape of jazz.com Is this an easier listen?

[B]

Interesting. Interesting. I think.

[A]

And what I mean, I mean, why

[B]

I'm telling you, Shape of Jazz that comes. Sounds more still like jazz. And now that was scary to people when it came out. That album is more accessible. Yes. To what we know to be jazz. This is challenge. This is more challenging than that. Yes, this is it. This sounds like volcanoes on planets that haven't been discovered exploding and melting. That's what it sounds like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's what some of these tracks sound like. There's a volcano going off on Venus, and Venus might not survive, but something will be left of that rock. That's what these. These tracks are.

[A]

And you know what? And I. And I love this. To put the button on it before we do final questions. It's Miles wins in the end. Yeah, Miles. Miles wins. He's completely vindicated with all the critics on him. It sells a hundred thousand copies, respectively, and quickly. And then it was an extraordinary number for any jazz release at that time. It becomes his first gold record, like we mentioned, and eventually goes on to be platinum, you know, and then. And that created another controversy after that, because then Jazz Pierce could say, see, he's. He's chasing rock fans. And Miles essentially said, yeah, but they're listening.

[B]

And.

[A]

And I think that's rad. I'm gonna tell you something, and then we're gonna do final questions. I told you that my dad meeting Miles Davis story.

[B]

I can't remember.

[A]

So my dad used to. When he lived in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania. And he was. He was staying at the Four seasons in Washington, D.C. he was an accountant working for whoever the. One of his first jobs. And he's on like the seventh, eighth floor, and he gets in the elevator and goes down two stops, doors open. Miles Davis walks in. This is 70s. This is probably right after this. It's like 72, maybe. I mean, I don't know. 72, 73, 74. Right around then. And dressed like he's going to the. You know, to the Knicks, you know, like he's going to like a boxing match. So the furs, the big glass. He is. He is full. Bette Davis Stout callback. And it's just him and my dad. My dad goes, gets, you know, because he does not like me, you know, doesn't talk to people like I do. And he goes, you're Miles Davis, right. And Miles, wearing the glass, goes, nah, man. And then they go down and my dad's getting off of the second floor and I guess Miles going to the lobby and he goes, well, listen, doors open because I know you're not Miles Davis, but if you run into Miles Davis, can you just let him know I really dig his music? And my. And Miles takes off his sunglasses and goes, thank you, baby.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

All right, favorite song on this. Actually, before we do that, promote away, please.

[B]

I'm not promoting anything. The James Madder on Instagram. That's it. And go listen to check the check spot. And go watch the check spot. We did like a black and white film, kind of the Making of. We should have done more of the backstage stuff, but it's putting together me doing stand up while the bills are being paid, basically doing a Q and A and just kind of free jazzing it to put together. So check it out. I meant a lot. Okay.

[A]

All right. All right, here we go. And guys, I say this once and listen to the check drop. Support this guy. I mean, this. James, I really had a great time today. I love having you on, and thank you for coming in. We actually had Eartha Kit booked originally. No, we didn't.

[B]

The ghost of Earth again.

[A]

Oh, she's dead.

[B]

I don't remember. I don't think she's with us.

[A]

I think she probably did.

[B]

I think Julie Neilmar is the only Catwoman left with us.

[A]

She ran the voodoo down. All right, favorite song. I think we already established that. Is. Is this. Is this a skippable record or a no skip record? And if it is, what are you skipping over?

[B]

I think you just played a whole goddamn thing.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

It's its own thing. It. It just. It's. It's almost uncaring.

[A]

Characteristic. Yeah.

[B]

Category.

[A]

It is. It could be. Dude, it is. It is. Listening to Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, you listen to the whole thing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

All 40 minutes or however long it is. It's Rhapsody and Blue. It's. But it's like. But it's. It's sections and it's all one piece. It's like you wouldn't. You wouldn't watch Ken Burns Civil War and Only and skip over parts two and three.

[B]

If you had to. Look, the title track has outlived everything. Maybe because it is the title track. That's the. If you had to only listen to one, you'd listen to the title track. But Voodoo's right up there. But. But this is a. This is. This album's a Frankenstein. So each track is just the body part of Frankenstein. So do you want just the arm of Frankenstein or. Sorry, Frankenstein's monster. I don't want people to correct me on that. Or do you check out the whole monster?

[A]

All right. And I know people probably did. Can you fuck to this record?

[B]

Yeah, but there's some real. I don't know, Bubba. There's some real wild moments. Maybe. Maybe the Pharaohs.

[A]

I mean, I think I. Listen. I bet you people food it down. Maybe people. This is. I think I. I mean, it's not something I would put on.

[B]

If you find someone who can do it to this. That's. There's probably some chick, bro.

[A]

You got a.

[B]

You probably should wipe it down right away.

[A]

It is the. In Jerry Maguire. Remember when we. The. I guess her friend Renee Zellweger, when they haven't had sex yet, he's like, I. I know you guys are going to. You guys got back together. He's like, so here, put this on. It's Miles Davis, Coltrane or something. But it was like. And he puts it on and it's just like out there, like free jazz, like improvisation. And he's just. Tom's like, turn this off. Like, you can't to this.

[B]

Well, that's Cameron Crow, right?

[A]

Genius, man.

[B]

That's him calling back Fast Times at Ridgemont High. Play side. And then he's in the car playing Cashmere, which is not what you did moan.

[A]

Oh, man. God bless his. So, all right, final thoughts. Why should someone listen to this record and why it deserves to be on here? However you want to.

[B]

You want to be challenged. Do you want something that. That is supposed to not be, but is and has now been for almost 60 years? Do you want. Want to remind yourself of what no can. How big of a yes no can be? Being told that you can't do something, that you shouldn't do something. Being told that you're stupid, that what you've invested your time and your energies to is rotten and a disgrace and turns its back on what made you. And then you find out that this is. Helps remake the thing that made you.

[A]

Yeah, I. You know, I. Listen, I want to pull back on what I said about disliking this record. I don't think dislike is the right word. It's just challenging. And, you know, it's not something you. It's not. We do. We've done this. I don't know what number this comes in at, but it's like, dude, we're. We've done over 400 episodes of the greatest music ever. And I mean some of those records just are, are just cream cheese, spreadable, easy, delicious. And then some are a little bit tougher. Metal box even. Like some of the. When I remember doing like indestructible Sound of Soweto, you're doing like African singers, not music I would vibe into. But you find it, it's easier. This one is challenging. This one is really, you know, it is, it is basically dark. It is, it's hypnotic. It's messy, for goddamn sure. And it almost sounds like there's 12 geniuses this arguing during like an alien invasion. But that's why you should hear it because it's, it's. It's one. One of the greatest musicians in the history of music. I mean he's up there with, with Beethoven, Mozart and Prince and. Yeah, I mean like he is, he is Gershwin in his form. And, and it's, it's a guy saying I could live off of every. I could live off everything I've done before. I can live off kind of blue and just play that and, and be successful and be rich. Or I could challenge myself because I want to be dangerous. And I think that's, that's the thing is like Miles Davis, you know, he wasn't the best human being as we've learned, but he, you know, but most aren't John Lennon. John Lennon, you know, it's. It Brew is basically Miles knowing isn't the sound of Miles knowing exactly where music is going. It's the sound of him being brave enough to go looking for it.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And on that note, James, thank you, sir. Go take your pp. I love you buddy. And hopefully I see you sooner than

[B]

Captain P.

[A]

What I tell you? What I tell you? The one and only James Madder. And follow them all on social media. James Mattern. And go to jamesmatter.com for all tickets. Like I said, this weekend I'm in Tampa at the Joke World Comedy Festival for new music pick this week brought to you in part by Distrokid is a track called Even Flow by Ulysses Owens Jr. And Generation Y. Find links to the music on the podcast website the 500podcast.com and send us a song. We will play it 500podcast gmail.com if you're inspired by these records, we will play it next week. Hank Williams. 40th 40th birthday. No 40 greatest hits. Do your homework, guys. Bye bye. Sa.

[B]

It,

[A]

Sam. The 500 keeping it please see for the fleece nation on the 500. The 500. Next chapter podcast.