← The Abigail Peugh Podcast
The Abigail Peugh Podcast
28. Using Your Story to Build A Community That Will Buy From You with Sun Yi
00:52:50
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- [00:05]
A
You're listening to an episode of the Abigail Pugh Podcast with, you guessed it, Abigail Pugh. I'm an introverted mama who took my online business from zero to seven figures in 15 months, selling my own digital products on social media. And guess what? I did it all with my 3 year old daughter no less than 3ft away from me at all times. Now I'm bringing you everything I've learned about building a wildly profitable online business that supports your life while allowing you to truly live it. Get ready for raw, honest conversations with entrepreneurs making thousands per month selling their own digital products and people just like you who ditch self doubt to create the life they've always wanted. If you're ready to make more money, have more impact, and still have time for the things that matter most, you're in the right place. Grab your sneakers, head out on your hot girl walk, and let's dive in. Today's guest is someone that I was introduced to a few years ago and probably a year and a half ago, I want to say, and he is, is all about storytelling, which I love. We all love that here on my podcast and in my community. And like I said, he's all about storytelling and he does it in a way that's so different. And you don't see a lot of people doing storytelling the way that Sun Yi does it. He's also the first male on my podcast, which is really fun. I feel like I have all these girls and women on the show and it's fun to have my first male guest. So, Sun Yee, welcome to my podcast. I'm so excited you're here.
- [01:28]
B
Thank you so much for having me, Abigail. I didn't know I was the first male. Now I feel like I'm under pressure.
- [01:38]
A
Not at all, not at all. I just feel like a lot of my products are named like Rich Girl Reels or Rich Girl this. So I do attract a lot of women. And it's funny. I get men in my DMs, like, hey, is this product, like, would this still work for me? Could I be a rich girl man? I'm like, absolutely. I just, it's just a fun, fun thing that I do.
- [01:55]
B
It's actually perfect because like, most people I work with are female personal brands and like 95% of their audience are female. So I'm very familiar with the world.
- [02:06]
A
Yeah, I love that. Well, tell us a little about your journey. I know you have, you've, like, worked with some of these big names and your content doesn't feel like that. And not in a bad way. I mean that in a very good way. You just are very approachable and everything that you share is all storytelling based, which I love. So I'd love to hear just a little bit about your story and your journey.
- [02:26]
B
Yeah, thank you. So my background is in design. I started out as a web designer. I started an agency. We work with a bunch of big corporate brands. And then about, I'd say about eight or nine years ago, we started one of our first personal brand client was. Her name is Gabby Bernstein. And from there I kind of fell in love with like personal brands and we started working with a lot of big personal brands and I wanted to build my own personal brand. So in 2020, right after like the pandemic started, I started like posting on Instagram and people kept telling me, like, oh son, can you teach me storytelling? And like, like people started approaching me and asking me to do a course on storytelling. And that's. Up until that moment, I never even like thought of myself as a storyteller, even though kind of, I guess that's what we do on websites for our clients. So since then I just kind of, you know, call myself a storyteller, story coach, I guess.
- [03:29]
A
I love it. And it's, it's funny, so many people, I feel like their products, their digital products, their courses come from people just saying, hey, I really like what you're doing. Can you create a course from it or can you teach me how to do it? And I feel like those are always like the most natural. The natural way to do it is just like showing up, being yourself, telling a story, and then kind of like seeing what your audience needs. And do you find yourself doing that still? Like with new products that you're creating, like, do they come to you asking for more or is it mainly storytelling still?
- [03:58]
B
Yeah, for sure. Like I've. What you, what you just said is like you hit it on the nail. Because if I look at all of my clients or even anyone that I know that are successful, it was never by design. Like in a sense where like I have this five year plan to get to this point. It was never like that. It's, it's always like. And even if you look at like really big YouTubers or content creators, they almost kind of fell into it by accident because people asked for it or, you know, something that they did went viral and people wanted more of that, so they started doing more of those. And so I do think that like a lot of content creators need to not overthink it and just See what people react to and kind of go after that.
- [04:40]
A
Yeah. Is that how you kind of do a lot of your content?
- [04:43]
B
Yeah. So, like, one of the things you mentioned before, before the call was like, my tagline is called. I never thought of it that way. So I didn't come up with that. And I didn't, like, I wasn't sitting in, like, a conference room trying to, like, come up with a brand strategy. What happened was people started commenting that in my, like, on my posts, Like, I would keep seeing that comment over and over again, and then I just, like, started using it as a last slide on my carousels, and people are like, oh, my gosh, that's such a perfect tagline for you. And that's just kind of how it happened.
- [05:17]
A
So, yeah, they wrote it for you. I tell people all the time, like, listen to your audience and use the words that they are saying in your marketing. Right. And you did that on an even bigger scale of making it your tagline. And it's literally what I like. That thought pops into my head when I read your content, and it's fun. At the end of his carousel, you guys, when he does it, I'll tag his socials and everything below for you. But at the. On the last slide, he has it, like, upside down. So your brain is also kind of, like, thinking, like, oh, I never thought of it. Like, I love it. It's such a playful thing. And, like, you're thinking it before you even get to that slide. Because he's. He's definitely a deeper thinker, and he. I was telling him this before the call. He definitely posts stuff that, like, is open for people to disagree with, and I think that's hard for me. Do you. Do you like that type of content? Do you like when people come into the comments and disagree?
- [06:05]
B
Yeah, I think that. Well, majority of people don't disagree. Maybe on threads they do, but.
- [06:13]
A
Yeah.
- [06:14]
B
Yeah, I do think that, like, there's two sides to every story. So, you know, like, almost every opinion that I have, even the opinions that I feel strongly about, I know that there's another side to it that I would even admit to. Right. So nothing in life I don't think is black and white. There's always so. So what I like to do is, like, what I realized after four years of making content is all of my. The opinions that I have. Let's say it's. It's like, for example, people say, okay, in business, a lot of people say, jump out of the plane first and then learn how to Make a parachute or like, start first, start before you're ready or something like that. Right. So that's an opinion. But then there's also another side that says, like, you have to be patient. Right. So almost every advice has another side that. You know what I mean? So that's kind of what I love about creating content. Because I think a lot of times what happens is we get carried away. Like, because everybody says, like, oh, just start first. Right. When you make content, start first. So they get very impatient because like, they, they actually misunderstand that as like, oh, I just need to be very aggressive and. But at the same time, you also have to be super patient when you make content. So it actually works, works both ways. And I think that's what I love about making content, actually.
- [07:33]
A
It's fun. And like you said earlier, Threads is. Threads is very different than Instagram, which I actually love. You do have to have a little bit of thicker skin if you get on the wrong side of threads. But I was just telling, I posted something, I think about it yesterday, the day before, I'm telling my audience that I, like test content on Threads first. And I see if people, you know, engage with it. I see if they're like, it's a new concept essentially for them, and then if they like it, I'll post it on Instagram. And I think so many people are missing out on this opportunity to like test something on a platform where it's easy. You literally just type it. Like, Threads is a predominantly text heavy. I don't think you need to have it be fancier than text. Some people do, but I don't do it. Is that something that you purposefully do where you're posting on Threads first and then when it does well, do you take it over to Instagram?
- [08:21]
B
Yeah, I think we should always utilize like, Threads is a good opportunity right now because there is more consumers than creators. So whenever there's like that imbalance. Whenever platforms. Yeah, when. Whenever there's an imbalance, like. Cause when your new TikTok was like that a few years ago.
- [08:39]
A
Yeah.
- [08:39]
B
So whenever there's like a new platform and that happens, you're gonna reach way more people than you. Like, like even now I feel like third threads is getting a little more competitive now. But like before, I will literally just post anything and it'll get so many views. And that's why it's such a great place to test, because when you have 100 followers, it's hard to test content because you can't really tell which ones people love or not. But on a platform like Threads, if your thread is good, tons of people will see it even if you don't have followers. So it's a great place to test whether our content, if it works well on thread, most likely it works well on other platforms as well. That's what I found.
- [09:22]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like threads, there's just like, it's way more low effort because you can't really rely on a trending audio, you can't rely on a caption, you can't rely on, you know, like multiple aspects. Whereas, like on Instagram with a reel or a carousel, you have multiple places to hook people in. Whereas on Threads, it's literally just your text, like, and what you're saying. And I challenge myself to like post once a day on threads. And I don't overthink it. I don't. I literally just like, whatever thought pops into my head that day, I'm like, you know what, I'm going to share this on threads. And then the ones that do well, I turn it into something else over on Instagram or even my email list. I just tried that this week. Where threads did well. I posted as a reel, the reel did well, and now I use it as an email. And I was like, why not just like, repurpose the crap out of it? But I do love that like, low pressure ness of threads is that like, it can take you two minutes to create something and if it doesn't perform well, you're not like, oh, my God, I spend all this time on this and if it does, you're like, cool, I got content for my carousel later on today.
- [10:22]
B
Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, you have to. I always post without really thinking about whether people are going to like it or not. I just post it and then actually majority of them don't do well. Yeah, and that's fine.
- [10:36]
A
Totally. And I feel like you can like do more on threads without worrying about it, like suppressing anything else. I feel like sometimes with Instagram, if you post like two back to back, then, like, it doesn't really allow your content to be pushed out how it should. Whereas with Threads, I'm like, never worried about that. So some days I'm like, you know, I'm gonna post five times today and test these things out. I got a lot, I got a lot to say today.
- [10:54]
B
Yeah, you're right. The algorithm on Instagram and YouTube are more like it. Your last post actually affects your next post. And so, like, it, it's, it's dependent on like, the algorithm, like, less, but I feel like through it, you're right. Like, I. One post can get, like, 100 views, and the next one can get, like, half a million. It's like, it's. It's literally the wild, wild west.
- [11:15]
A
It really is. I was just going to say the exact same thing, but fun. And I love the low pressure. Without, like, before, I felt like Twitter was the only option. And, you know, Twitter's been around forever. It's just. It's more. I feel like it tends to go more political. And I'm like, I just want to have fun on a platform. I just want to, like, post fun things and play. And I feel like that's what Threads allows you to do. So I love that. Now, I would love to hear. Do you have, like, a formula for storytelling? I feel like so many people get caught up in storytelling. Like, they want to tell their whole entire story in a real instead of just, like, one part of their story. So do you have, like, I'm sure now naturally, I'm the same. Like, I don't have a formula. I just naturally know how to storytell. But when you started and what you teach people, do you have, like, a formula for people? Like, how does that work for your brain?
- [12:07]
B
Yeah, I'm just. What I'm doing right now is I think I've always told stories kind of like you. Like, I think they're people that are just, like, naturally good at storytelling just because they've been doing it for a while or something like that. But it's one of those things, like, you don't really. You can't really break it down into. It's hard to teach. You can't. So for the past couple of years, what I've been doing is, like, reverse engineering, like, why are these stories doing well? Or something like that. And there are a few things. Like one of them you just mentioned, you always want to stick to one point because a lot of people are like, oh, yeah, like this story. The lesson of this story is this. But it's also like, you know, it's like, let's say if you're thinking about overthinking, then they. They kind of. It seeps into, like, talking about perfectionism and then things into, like, worrying about being judged and, like, imposter syndrome. And they just go on and on and on. But you really need to narrow down and say what is, like, the single point of the story. So I always tell people, like, if you can't tell me the lesson of the story in one sentence, like, you don't have a story. Like, you. You just have. It's just. There's a difference between, like, a biography and a story. And the story should have, like, an exact point that you're trying to make. A lot of people do that, right? They're like, they'll tell. Start telling a story, and they'll. At the. At the end, we're like, oh, that. But that's for another. You know, that's a story for another day. Or, like, I don't know where I was going with that. Or like, I guess the point of the story is like. Like, you really have to work out those kink. And I think that's actually another area where I love threads, because once I. When I'm writing thread, first of all, it forces me to, like, get clear with the one lesson. And also when I just write it helps me clarify what I'm trying to say. So that's. That's like, definitely a main thing. But I would say even more important than that for me is. So I call it Myth Truth sandwich. So all stories that I tell has some. I always start with some sort of a myth that people already believe. And then I come up with an example, and the example is the actual story. And the example kind of contradicts the myth. Myth. And then finally the truth. And the truth is not necessarily the opposite of the myth. It's usually somewhere in between. So, for example, like, one thing I might say is, you know, okay, like a myth might be. Some people say, you know, never quit, right? So that's. That's a myth that people might believe in. Let's say right now, like, don't ever give up. Or, you know, that that's kind of a cliche. And then the example that I would give is like, like, if you play. If you play poker, you have to know when to fold the hand so that you can survive to win the game, right? So, and then, like, the truth would be something like letting go of a hand so that you can win the game is not the same as quitting or something like that.
- [14:59]
A
So I love that. And I feel like that's like your. That's your way of storytelling now. Like, when I see your carousel, I'm not in my head thinking, oh, there's a myth, and then this. But I do know, like, the kind of the layout that you're going to do them now, and I like it. I like noticing. I like the comfortability of, like, okay, I kind of know what's coming, but not really. I know more Kind of the layout of how you're going to do it, but not exactly how you're going to do it. And I think people overthink that a lot in content creation is they're like, oh, I have to change everything every single time I post. And I'm like, no, like, find something that you're good at and that people like, like a style of video. And then you create different versions of that video. I mean, there are entire TikToks where like, they do the same dance to different songs on the entire page. Granted, like, that's entertainment stuff, but still I'm like, I still scroll through and watch everyone. And I love, like the repetition of the same thing in different ways. And I feel like you do that really good. Like you have this outline of what you do and it makes content creation easier, honestly. And I'm the same. I have a few types of reels and a few types of carousels that are like, very easy for me. And I just plug in, like different information each time, but the layout is the same. And that's kind of like a very easy way to make content creation so much easier. Because I feel like people stress about.
- [16:21]
B
Everyone consumes content a certain way, but for some reason when they make content, it's counterintuitive. Like, when they make content, they don't make it like the way they would consume. For example, like, everyone loves playlists and series on YouTube. Like, for example, like, let's say you're watching a channel that. And they. This channel kind of, let's say, did a series on pranks. Right. Then even if their channel has other content, like, you're interested in the pranks, that's why you follow them or something like that. So actually people like those repetitive content because that's the reason why they're following you, right? Yep. But then when they make their content, they feel like, oh, I don't want to do repetitive content. Every content I do has to be brand new or something like that. Right. So it's really counterintuitive. Like, I just think about, like, how you consume content.
- [17:13]
A
You like the repetition? No, exactly. And I feel like it's funny whenever I, you know, we are like, have a trip or something planned and I'm literally just repurposing old content. And the way I repurpose is I don't usually post like the same video. I just take like the text that I did in unreal and exactly the same caption. And then I have like a new B roll and a new audio. Right. And they always perform so well. And I'm kind of annoyed sometimes because I'm like, dang it. I have been, like, trying to come up with, like, fresh, new ideas all the time when, like, my old ones are still performing well. And one of my friends, he says this all the time. He's like, you can't. You can't, on one hand say, nobody's seeing my content, and then on the other hand, say, I can't repurpose content because it's like they can exist at the same time. And if. If not a lot of people are seeing your content, there's nothing wrong with repurposing it. And even if a lot of people are seeing your content, people don't pay attention to everything that they see. And nobody watches your content the way you do. Right. Like, we overanalyze and think about everything, and then other people are not doing that.
- [18:13]
B
Just right now. What. What you did right there is, like, an example of a myth. True sandwich, actually. People say, nobody watches my content, but then they also say, oh, like, I don't want to repost my content. It's like, okay, what if nobody watches your content? Then you should repost it so that they can see it. Right. Like, so that's a perfect example of a mithril sandwich.
- [18:34]
A
Oh, you're rubbing off on me. I did that. I love it.
- [18:39]
B
Because that's the thing that makes people go, I never thought of it that way. Right.
- [18:43]
A
Yep, exactly. And I feel like you do have to dumb stuff down enough to where people can understand it, and I think you do a really good job with your examples. There are some people that, like, tell stories, and it's so in depth the way they're telling it. And I'm like, on social media, you can't do that. Like, on a podcast. Absolutely. On YouTube, the longer form, you can kind of get away with it a little bit more. But, like, I always tell people, if your content can be understood by a seventh grader, like, it's too intense for a reel or it's too intense for a carousel, because people are consuming so quickly. It's not like they're sitting down and they're ready to read this novel. They're, like, flicking through at a red light while they're trying to consume something, and, like, you have to grab their attention. And I feel like you do such a good job of, like, dumbing it down to where, like, I can understand what you're saying so very quickly. And that's another thing so many people do wrong. Like, they Go into, like, the depths of their soul to talk in their caption. And I'm like, talk to me like you're at a coffee shop. Like, sit down and type it out. Like, I type my stuff when I'm, like, sitting in my living room and my toddler's playing around me. Like, I'm not super concentrated. I'm literally just trying to get out my words. And that always performs so much better. And I feel like you're so good at that type of content as well.
- [19:48]
B
Yeah, I try to be very. Cause I think I learned how to do that while making websites. Because what happened was, like, I would keep writing copy and then I'll post it. Post there and it wouldn't perform. Or, you know, sometimes I'll. I'll make a website and I'll have some. Somebody like, actually go through the website. Well, here's a good practice. Like, in your website, if you. There's a app called Full Story which like, literally records what the user is doing on your website. And, like, you're going to be so frustrated when you watch it. You're so frustrated because they. Nobody ever uses the website the way, like, nobody reads everything, like, the way you would imagine or something like that. And I've had that experience so many times. And then same thing, like on. When I post on threads, I'll say something really that I think is pretty simple. But when you read the comments, like, people didn't get it. Like, they didn't really fully understand this. So the next time I post that, I'll dumb it down a little more and make it really clear. And then maybe some people still don't understand it. So when you just do it for a while, you can kind of feel it. Like, it's like, okay, I don't think people are going to get this. Like, no matter how simple it is. I think that's just like some habit that you form after you post content for a while. Like, you start to realize unless it's so super simple, people are just not going to get it.
- [21:06]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like also whatever, like, niche or, you know, whatever. Niche, I guess, is the right word that you're in. You talk in phrases that people who are not in your niche don't talk in. Oh, yeah, you really, like. I never say words like funnel or sales funnel, things like that, because my audience is. A lot of them are content creators or newer entrepreneurs. And when I say that, they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, what is a sales funnel? And so, like, I just never use Those types of words in my marketing because essentially, are they building one with me? Yes. Right. Their. Their funnel is their reels, and it's taking them to their stand store, and then it's getting them on their email list. Like, it is a funnel, essentially. But I don't talk like that in my stories because a lot of content creators who are trying to monetize, like, they don't know what a sales funnel means. And, like, I don't want to lose them on that or make them feel dumb, because they're not dumb at all. They just. They don't talk in the way that I do as someone that's a marketing person. Right. Like, that's what I do. I wake up excited. I love marketing. Like, I. My phone has so many screenshots of advertisements that I see out in the wild that I'm like, babe, babe, you have to see this. It's so good. My husband's like, cool. I'm like, okay, I'll just geek out on it myself. But other people who are, you know, like, that's not their area of expertise. Like, they're not going to understand it the same. So, yeah.
- [22:25]
B
Even if, like, 50% of your audience understands it, like, you're literally leaving the other 50 people, personally, your audience out. Right. And it's exactly. I see it kind of like this. I think part of it is because we're so used to it because we're talking the lingo offline with people all the time.
- [22:40]
A
Yeah.
- [22:41]
B
But also, there's a little bit of ego attached to it, too. Like, people don't want to sound stupid. Like, like, they're gonna. They're gonna be like, oh, people are gonna think that I'm dumb or I don't know enough, or if I dumb it down. And I kind of see it as, like. Because some people try to be clever and they, like, it's almost like an inside joke or something like that. But the problem with the inside joke is that, like, only insiders are gonna get it. Like, nobody. Like, so you don't want to do inside jokes on content creation. You just wanna make everything super clear. And for me, like, I always keep in mind that a lot of my audience are not, like, English is not their first language also. So if, you know, like, if you go to a foreign country and you try to speak English, like, you would talk to them like you would talk to a child. Right. So you have to keep that in mind almost.
- [23:31]
A
Yeah, I didn't think about that. Okay, so what is one of the biggest mistakes that you see people doing when they are trying to tell a story and how can they fix it?
- [23:40]
B
I think you. I think the one you mentioned about, like, making it too long.
- [23:45]
A
Yeah.
- [23:46]
B
Too long. Too complicated. So that. That's like, without a doubt, the number one thing. And yeah. I'm trying to think, like, okay, so I mean, that's so important what you. That the long and complicated thing is that if you just fix that alone, it's going to make. That's like you're 80% there.
- [24:03]
A
Yeah.
- [24:03]
B
Because so many people understand that.
- [24:06]
A
Yeah.
- [24:06]
B
But they don't actually do it. It's. You know, I say this about, like, people that are Christians. Like, a lot of Christians, they believe in the Bible, but they don't actually follow it. So it doesn't matter if you know or not. Like, if you know that your content should be simple. Like, if you don't actually do it, it's useless. You know what I mean?
- [24:24]
A
Yeah.
- [24:25]
B
So that alone will get you most of the way. But another thing that I see is so the myth truth sandwich that I talked about. So that applies. Let's say if I'm telling a personal story, a lot of stories. I'll give you an example. Like, the other day, I. Not the other day, but a few months ago, I saw this story on threads. I forgot it was on threads or Twitter, but somebody was saying, when I was young, I was not like everyone else, so everybody thought I was weird, but I didn't care. And eventually I found other people that were also weird and we formed our own clique. So the lesson of the story is that just be yourself and yada, yada, yada. Right. Which is good. But the thing is, if you carefully listen to that story, there is no lesson that this person learned. They're teaching a lesson, but they're basically saying, oh, I didn't care. I was always smart. I always knew that I should be authentic. And there's a lot of that in most storytelling. And what I call that is. I call that a sob story. It's like, oh, it's. It's never my fault. Right?
- [25:35]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [25:36]
B
So what you want to do is you always want to tell a story from a point of view where, what did I do wrong? Right. That I. And what is the lesson that I learned? And then that I changed. So if you were to. If I were to rewrite that story, which most likely, like, everyone cares. There's no. Not a human being in the world who doesn't care about what other people think of them. So the way I would write it is when I was young, I was different, I was weird. So nobody wanted to hang out with me. So I tried everything to fit in. Like, I tried to dress like them, I try to talk like them, I try to, you know, do all of them. Until, you know, like I started to realize that, you know, I wasn't being myself. Or maybe some like, find a moment, right? Like something like, oh yeah. Until one day they were making fun of my sister and just to fit in, I try to. I also, you know, went along with them and made more fun of my sister and I felt terrible about that. And you know, that that's when I realized that I can't be like this anymore. And then I changed. So you have to find your weakness, your flaw. And without that character flaw, it, the story is just not going to be as good and, or vulnerable.
- [26:43]
A
It's funny, people ask me all the time because in, in my community and in a lot of my offers, I do prompts for them and I like pull the story out of them because so many people don't know how to tell their story. And I get so much pushback sometimes of people saying like, oh, I like am I going to sound not as credible by sharing my mistakes? And I'm like, no. People want to know that you're a real human. They want to know that you've thought the hard things or you've gone through hard things or you've maybe like struggled through something that they are now struggling through. And I've never once thought, oh, I'm not going to share my struggle because everyone is going to think I'm less than. And I think I've just always been a more of an open person. And I appreciate when other people struggle and they share it. And that's like a huge part of my marketing. It not on accident, like now it's not on accident. But at the beginning I just kind of always shared the good and the bad and the hard moments. And it's funny now my students are like, oh, well, it doesn't make me seem less credible. And I asked them, I'm like, do I seem less credible? Because I shared that, like I had a zero dollar day when I had a 613 day streak of no zero dollar days. Like, no. You're all like, phew, finally she's human. Great. I'm so glad, like I'm so glad that she's sharing the hard moments. And I think it's important for people to share the wins and the hard moments. And even when you don't look good. Like, I've shared things that like, don't make me look great. And I'm like, you know what? Like, I'd rather be open and kind of invite them in to feel like they can share their hard moments too. Because as someone who, you know, when you're a leader in the space, you have to go first. You can't expect other people to like, share their hard moments with you if you never share yours with them. And like, I don't, I don't want to be on a pedestal ever. Like, I want to be on the same level as everyone else. And I think it's important to share like the hard things. And I feel like a lot of people don't think that.
- [28:35]
B
Yeah, like what you said is exactly right. I think people are afraid that they're going to lose credibility. So that's the biggest hurdle for most people that I find, like, in my community too. What I found helps, number one is like, first you have to start at a more of a safer space. So in my community, I try to create smaller spaces where people can start sharing their weaknesses and flaws, which is easier than doing it in public. And then you can build your way up. And also another thing is people are actually inspired. Like, what happens is when I first asked them to share something vulnerable or something like their weakness or flaws or something like that, they won't do it. And I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, that's not a flaw. That's not like, you know, kind of like when you at a job interview, when you say, what's your weakness? They're like, oh, I'm a perfectionist. Right. Or I'm a workaholic. Right. Like, exactly. So people kind of do the whole humble brag thing.
- [29:34]
A
Yeah.
- [29:34]
B
And it's really hard to get them to. And then people get really, get stuck, like, and they're like, I don't know. I really can't think of an Uruk. I can't really think of. When I was, you know, I, like, I was always like this. I, you know, I never, I never care about what other people think of me. I was always like this, you know, like something like that until I. So what I have to do is I share one of my clients vulnerable story, like let's say from Mel Robbins or some, someone that's like super successful. Right. Which is. And, but their story is super vulnerable too. Right. And when I do that, like, for example, one of the stories that I share about Mel Robbins is how, how she, when she was going through like she was stuck in her life, like she would wake up late and she couldn't even get her, like she would, she couldn't stop drinking and she would, she couldn't even get her kids to school on time. And you know, like she, she would be, she would be at a grocery store like trying to make up on the checkout line, trying to make up excuses of what she's going to say when her credit card gets declined because she knows the credit card is not going to get, go through like some of the like vulnerable moments. And then as soon as I do that, all of a sudden they have like, oh, they're like, oh, I have one. And then, you know, so you get inspired. Like the way to get people to be vulnerable is for you to be vulnerable first. And I think that inspires other people to be more vulnerable.
- [30:58]
A
Absolutely. And it really builds community. Like I, I never like started out necessarily to build a community. Obviously. I think in the back of my mind I wanted to. Right. Like I wanted to be around people that wanted to do what I wanted to do and wanted to, you know, get into content creation. Right. Because that's kind of how I got started and it, by sharing like the hard moments. Like that's how my community was built. And now I feel like I have such a tight knit community that trusts me and I trust them and it's because like I've been open about that with them and like you, I always tell people, I'm like, you have to go first. And in the beginning it's going to be crickets and that's normal. It's normal for like, you have to go first, you have to put the question boxes out there. You have to like ask questions and you know, ask them to open up. But like, you also have to do it yourself and you have to open up first for then people to feel comfortable opening up to you. And it's not easy at first. Like even now sometimes I just, I kind of feel these like vulnerability hangovers after I share something hard. I like put it on the Internet and I'm like, you know, I can't come back until tomorrow. Like I just, I need a break. It's, it's a lot to share and it's, it's heavy to be vulnerable but it builds the best trust and connection with people and it just makes the harder moments easier when you're going through them with other people.
- [32:17]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean I, I, I think that's what it means to be a leader. Is like, you have to go first. Right. Like, I saw this video of, like. Like, in Virgin Airlines, like, Richard Branson, they were having, like, a company party, and Richard Branson first jumped in the pool with all his clothes on and then made a fool of himself. And then, like, few minutes, everybody else started jumping in. But it's embarrassing to be that first one, right?
- [32:44]
A
Yeah.
- [32:45]
B
And I think vulnerability doesn't always mean, like, you have to find the most devastating parts. Like, it can be something like, for example, I. I lived in New York City for, I guess, most of my adult life, and in New York, there's, like. There's this, like. Like, everybody drinks. Drinks black coffee. Nobody puts, like, milk in their coffee or sugar in their coffee. Right. But I like my coffee, like, light and sweet. I like milk and sugar in my coffee. So. So even something like that. Right. Why, I. I actually share that. I could, like, I love putting sugar and coffee in my. Like, milk in my coffee. And actually, a lot of people commented, like, oh, me too. And these are like. And then, like. So people start opening up, right?
- [33:33]
A
Yep.
- [33:33]
B
So it's vulnerability is actually something like. It's really saying that thing that everybody was. A lot of people were thinking but were too afraid to say. And you want to be the first to say it.
- [33:48]
A
Yeah.
- [33:48]
B
And. And you'll find that, like, that's the thing, like, what you said about building community. Right. Like, humans as humans. Like, because I have, like, our community members are from, like, 70 different countries and, like, all different backgrounds, religions, and whatnot. And at the end of the day, I think humans are. We're more alike than different. Like, we like to be like, oh, yeah, we're all individuals. But, yes, to a certain degree. But at the end of the day, like, I just think that human stories are human stories, and we all have very similar stories. So when you do, when you are saying the thing that you're afraid or you're embarrassed to say, you're ashamed to say, other people will be like, oh, my gosh. Yeah. Like, I thought I was the only one. But, you know, like, when you. And that's what builds the connection. Right. When I say, oh, I thought I was the only one, and I was always too ashamed to say it, but now that I hear you say it, I feel like we have some sort of a bond. Like, we. We share a secret that nobody else has or something like that.
- [34:50]
A
Yep.
- [34:50]
B
Yeah, that. That's what. Look, I have this book here called story by Robert McKee. And Robert McKee says story is the currency of Relationships. So that's actually how you build communities 100%.
- [35:05]
A
And I think, too, sometimes people think being vulnerable means, like, being vulnerable means sharing, like, the really intense moments in your life. And I don't think it is, like.
- [35:15]
B
I like your rock bottom moment.
- [35:16]
A
Right. I don't. I think it's fine if you want to share that, like, after you've gotten through it. I never share anything from our personal life that, like, I'm going in at the moment, maybe later when I'm through it, and I have, like, the emotional capacity to talk about it maybe. But even then, like, my relationship with my husband, I don't talk about that on the Internet very much. My relationship with my daughter, like, hard things that she's going through. I don't want to blast that on social media. And you don't have to, like, it doesn't have to be, you know, your entire life. And, like, I am very open with my audience, but, like, I don't share my daughter's face. I don't talk about my daughter and my husband a lot. And that's very much on purpose. Like, I want them to feel like they don't have to be, you know, on the Internet, the way I'm comfortable being on the Internet. But, like, that's not the only way to be vulnerable. And, like, even sharing that, I can't keep up with my laundry. Like, things like that. Like, people and like, seeing a laundry pile. Like, my podcast studio at the beginning, before I was at the one that I'm at now was my closet, and I had, like, weeks of laundry to do, but I left it because I needed the sound to be, like, muzzled out. And it worked. And, like, sharing little things like that. Yes. Was it messy? Yes. Was it embarrassing? Absolutely. But I had so many moms saying, like, oh, my God, like, why? Why can't we keep up on the laundry? Like, it's. It's a simple task, but it's so hard sometimes. And, like, little things like that, like, vulnerability doesn't have to mean sharing every single piece of your life on the Internet. I don't want to do that.
- [36:43]
B
Yeah. Privacy and being public versus being private has nothing to do with being authentic because, you know, plenty of people who share everything, but they're fake. Right. Like, when you watch reality shows or whatever it is, you know, plenty of people that share literally everything about their life, but you can still see how fake they are. Right. Versus, you know, people that are private. Right. That even in your friend group, you know, people that are very private but they come off very authentic when they are talking to you or something like that. So it's like, it's really, it has nothing to do with being public or private.
- [37:21]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And I had someone push back. I was probably on threads because that's usually where pushback is saying that like, oh, well then you're not truly authentic. And I'm like, I do disagree. I feel like I'm more authentic because I'm not like pushing my family life into my content or like forcing my child to be in a real. Like, I, I don't, she's four. She doesn't know if she wants to be on the Internet or not. Like, I don't, I don't want to push her into that. And it's not authentic to not share something that's like part of your personal life. Like, I think it's more authentic to be like, you know, I'm not comfortable sharing that part of my life, but the parts that I am, I'm going to like go all in.
- [37:55]
B
That's like saying that, okay, if you don't share your bank account PIN number, you're not being authentic. What? Like, exactly. It has nothing to do with authenticity. It has to do with like some, some informations are private. And I like what you said about before. Like I, I always tell people not to share something that you're going through now because most likely what's going to happen is if, if you're deep in it right now, the story is going to come out as a SOP story because you, you're, you might still be traumatic about it or something like that. So you want to wait till like you're over it. You, you clearly be able to see what happened.
- [38:35]
A
Yeah.
- [38:36]
B
And see where you are wrong. Otherwise like if you're going through a breakup and you share it right now, you're just going to be like, ah, this, you know, she's such a, like she's such a bitch or like he's such an asshole. Like blah, blah, blah. And you're going to go into display mode.
- [38:50]
A
Yeah.
- [38:51]
B
And not really look at like maybe what, what I've done wrong or something like that. And that, that goes back to like the sob story versus a vulnerable story thing, you know?
- [39:01]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And even, I mean my, or like the beginning of my business started right after like a hard thing. Like my husband had two strokes. He's like, he was in early 30s when they happened like very unexpected. And that's kind of like what pushed me to believe in myself. But like I Didn't start creating content and like talking a little bit about our story until April, May, June, July, like three or four months later. And even then, like it was still fresher. But we knew kind of like how he would recover. But like at the beginning, I can't imagine sharing a ton of that. Right. Like we had friends who were sharing to just like update people because we, you know, lived far from all our family. But like, I really had to work through things and decide like, do I want to talk about this? And ultimately I decided to talk about it a little bit because it was a huge push in my, like, believe in yourself. You need to, like, you need to do something for your family. You need to like stop being a right hand woman and go for it for yourself. And that was a huge part of my story. So I did tie it in a little bit. But I'm always like very careful. Like, I don't want that to be like my whole entire story. Like, I don't want to just be known for that. But I did want to share it. And it's crazy. To this day, every time I bring it up, I get so many messages from people saying like, my husband had strokes as well. He was young. We went through this. Like, thank you so much for sharing. I feel seen. I feel like I can get through something like this. And it's, it like brings me to, it's. It's very emotional when I do bring it up and I do talk about it because it opens the door again for people to share something hard that they have gone through. But like I said, I couldn't have shared all of that when it was.
- [40:33]
B
Happening or even if their husband didn't go through a stroke. I think every woman would feel that like, because like, I know a lot of couples like that where like, let's say the breadwinner of the family like lost their job or like something some hardship was going through.
- [40:49]
A
Yeah.
- [40:49]
B
And maybe like some woman would have like felt like, oh, I can't, I can't step up and I can't be, I can't be the person that, you know, my partner leans on or something like that.
- [41:00]
A
Yeah.
- [41:01]
B
But when you share a story like that, first of all, if they're in that place, it might encourage them to, you know, step up or if they have been, been the person that steps up, then you know, they're going to be like, oh, I can totally relate to that or something like that. Right?
- [41:17]
A
Yeah, absolutely. It's hard, but it's worth it.
- [41:22]
B
Another mistake while you were Saying that another thing that. Another huge mistake that I. That reminded me. No, no, no, no. It's. It's. It's actually what you said about that. That's not the only story that you tell. Because I think a lot of personal brands that I work with, they feel like they need this one hero's journey story that. Their brand story that everybody knows, and that. That's, like, their story, but it's. That's a. That's a huge myth. Right. Because if I were to ask you, like, what's Oprah's story? Like, she doesn't have one story. Or if I ask you, like, what's Tony Robbins story? He doesn't have one story. Right. Same thing with all my clients. They don't have one story. So we've. We know that all the. All the people that we follow don't have that one main story. They have lots of stories, right?
- [42:19]
A
Yep.
- [42:19]
B
But for some reason, we feel like we need to have that one story.
- [42:22]
A
Yep.
- [42:23]
B
Which is, like, I think a huge mistake.
- [42:25]
A
Yes. And I think the fun part about storytelling is that your story is ever evolving, so you always have new stories to tell. Like, everything that I do in my content comes from things that are happening in my. My life or my business. And I'm like, hey, cool. This worked really well. Like, let's talk about it with people and show them how I did it. Or, hey, I had this hard moment, like, probably a month ago, I was here recording a podcast on a weekend, and there was a guy in the elevator with me, which usually on weekends, there's nobody here, so I wasn't expecting anybody. And I, like, walk in. I was holding my podcasting gear. And he was like, oh, are you doing a podcast today? And I was like, oh, yeah. And he's like, oh, are you. Do you have your own show? And I was like, yeah, just, like, really embarrassed and quiet. And then he was like, oh, like, what's the name of the show? I would love to listen to it. And I was so embarrassed telling this guy the name of my podcast. And he was like, great. Like, I'm gonna listen. That's so cool. You never meet anybody who has a podcast. And he gets off the elevator, and immediately I was like, what the actual f? Like, why am I talking down on myself? Why am I not, like, excited? Like, I've done 20, 21 episodes now. I don't know how many at the time. Like, why am I not proud of myself and excited? And, of course, I brought that into a story, and I talked about like, believing in yourself and, you know, talking about what you do in a way that, like, you're confident in what you're doing. Like, people pick up on that confidence. And this guy was probably like, oh, like, I wonder how good the poncho is going to be. This girl just, like, over there, you know, embarrassed and talking shyly. And it was a simple little story that I was able to do an Instagram story and create a reel about it. I probably should have done an email and a thread about it, too. But, like, little micro stories are what storytelling is. It's not this overarching. Like, here's my entire story, every single reel. It's like, small things. And honestly, when you're a personal brand, marketing can be so easy because every day in your life, things are happening that you can pull in and make a story on and, like, teach a lesson, which I love that kind of marketing. It's my favorite.
- [44:13]
B
Yeah. If you're aware. I think the awareness is, like, for you to be aware of that moment.
- [44:18]
A
Yeah.
- [44:18]
B
And be like, oh, this can be a story with the teaching. Like, it. I actually think that if you're just paying attention around you all the time, every day there, like, there are teaching moments like that where, you know, there's probably a lot of people who. This. This is something I know from. I work with this woman named Nicole Lapin. She. She wrote a book called Rich Bitch and Boss Bitch.
- [44:43]
A
Love her already.
- [44:45]
B
And she talks about, like, how women are in the workplace. And a lot of women are like, first of all, they apologize for no reason all the time. They. They're like, oh, I'm so sorry to bother you. But, you know, like, so they're always, like, in this apology mode. And another thing is they, like, they have a lot of hard time taking compliments and that, like, what you just said is an example of, like. Like, you didn't. You know, it's. It's. It's kind of a similar thing when you're, like, talking. Kind of talking yourself down.
- [45:13]
A
Yeah.
- [45:14]
B
Versus not being able to think, oh, it's nothing. It's just a small little podcast or something like that. So you know what I mean? So, like, that's like, a great teaching moment. And I'm. Yeah, it's. It's so. You're so. Right. Like, you just want to be aware of that. Like.
- [45:30]
A
Yeah.
- [45:30]
B
And another thing is, like, you're. You said before that your story is always evolving. I love that because so many people think that once they have an opinion or they tell a story or something like that, they feel like they have to stick by that story. Like, otherwise people are going to think I'm fickle, like, I changed my mind or something like that. But I'm actually like, there are a lot of stories that I told or a lot of opinions that I've spoke about in my content, and it's still there. Like, I haven't taken any of it down that I actually disagree with now. And we have to be able to say, oh, yeah, I did say that four years ago and I was wrong. And so once you're comfortable saying I was wrong or, yeah, I changed my mind on that or whatever, it is actually, like, you'll, you'll have unlimited. Like, you'll have no fear of telling stories or, or saying your opinions because you, you know that, you know, you have no problem saying, you know, having to stick by something, right?
- [46:29]
A
Yep.
- [46:30]
B
So just understand that your story is always evolving. And like, if you're, if your story is actually not evolving, that means you're not growing. So you don't want to be like, you don't want to be that person. Yeah.
- [46:40]
A
Yep. I always tell my daughter, I'm like, I'm always open to having my mind changed. And I really, like, instill that in her too, that, like, you're not married to an idea or a way of thinking. Like, I'm always open to changing my mind. And even last week I did something, a thread, and then I turned it into a carousel about how, like, I used to think that everything was content, but then everything literally became about content and I couldn't. I couldn't do it anymore. So now I, like, batch create my B roll video all on one day instead of, like, making my entire life about content. And I'm sure over a year ago or even six months ago, I have a reel or something posted saying everything is content. Like, just record it and it's easy to have content. And now I'm like, no, the opposite. And like you said, I'm not going to go back and delete those other posts or anything. Right. Like, I want to show that I'm a human that's evolving. And then, like, I'm sharing that with the world. It's not like I'm like, okay, well, I said this. Now I can't say this. No, like, I'm growing. And like you said, if you're not, if you're not able to grow, like.
- [47:42]
B
What you just said, that right there is going to make you a better storyteller when you change mind. Because what ends up happening is that means that you used to think this way, and let's say now you think slightly differently about that topic. That means you understand why somebody would think that the way you used to think, right? So. And that's the myth. So you start with. So I'll give you a perfect example. So I used to think that me as a designer, and I hear designers and copywriters and marketers say this all the time, that I'm the expert. So, you know, like, I know what the client needs, right? I'm the expert, right? So if the client, like, and this specifically for designers, like, they hate it when. When the client goes like, can you make the logo bigger? And it's like, no, I'm the. I'm the expert in design. I know. You know, I know that it shouldn't be bigger, whatever it is. Like, I know that font shouldn't be that big or whatever it is, right? So they say, why would I. Why would I give you the second best option? Or why. Why would I not want to push the best solution for you, your. Your brand, right? But then, like, I saw. I used to think that, and I was very stubborn about that. I was like, no, like, this is the better option. Like, your wrong client, right? Like, and then when I was, like, shopping for apartments, like, there was this apartment that was clearly a logically a better choice, Better location, better investment, blah, blah, blah. But I just personally like this other apartment better, which wasn't. Which was my personal choice, right? And it was a worse investment. It's not as good of a location and blah, blah, blah. But I had my reasons, right? Like, imagine that real estate agent was like, no, we will not sell you that apartment because you're wrong, right? Like, I know what's better for you, right? Like, yeah, so. So that's. That's an example of, like, that's when I started to change my mind. It was like, okay, sometimes, like, I. I should be okay to give client the wrong. The. The not the best option if the client prefers that or something. At the end of the day, I'm in the service business, right? So I. I actually changed my mind on that. But. But I. At the same time, I understand why designers would say that. So the way I would tell that story is, like, I would start with the myth to. To let them. To let the audience under. Know that I know where you're coming from. Yep, I understand. And that's how I used to think. And I. I actually, I start the story as if I'm gonna be on their side.
- [50:11]
A
So, like, I love this guy.
- [50:13]
B
Yeah. And then I flip it with an example. Then that's when people go like, oh, yeah, I never like, yeah, because a lot of times when you. When you get into, like, arguments or when you get into, like, these debates, the person feels like they're not being heard. They feel like they're not being understood. But when you start with the myth, what happens is they get it. Like, oh, I get that you understand me and you really understand where I'm coming from. And then you give them a little different truth, then that's when they're going to be like, oh, I never thought of it that way. And maybe they might not change their mind right away, but at least that seed of an idea has been planted in their head.
- [50:50]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And that's what people are doing in reels when they're like, I used to struggle with xyz or I made these. These are three things I would never do as a right. Because they've done those things. And the people can hear that and be like, oh, shoot, I'm doing that. Like, why should I not be doing that?
- [51:06]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Exactly.
- [51:07]
A
Fun to work into the content. Sun. This was amazing. Do people call you son? Like, that's your full name. Do people just call you son? I'm, like, feeling so.
- [51:15]
B
Yeah, they just call me son.
- [51:16]
A
Okay. Thank you so much. This was. I'm like, I can't wait to listen to this episode. This was so much fun. I could talk about storytelling all day long, clearly. But can you let us know where they can find you, follow you on Instagram threads and kind of a little bit about your. Is it called Sunday Sunday Store, Sunday series? What is that called?
- [51:36]
B
Sunday service?
- [51:37]
A
Yeah, Sunday service. A little bit about that.
- [51:39]
B
Yeah. Everything you can find in my Instagram. My Instagram is, like, my main, I guess, platform. It's Sun Y, Sun E. And I have a community called Night Owl Nation, which is where every Sunday we meet. I teach every Sunday. And then the big part of that is, like, we have these things called small groups, so people meet within our community every week. And so every Sunday, I give them an assignment. I'll give a prompt. I said, this week, talk about this. And then they'll share a story at night. I just found that that's, like. It just gets people to practice, like, okay, telling stories and just comfortable with telling stories. So, yeah, that's. Night Owl Nation is my community.
- [52:26]
A
Awesome. Well, I will tag everything in the show notes for you guys. Thank you so much for joining me for another episode and I will see you next week. Thank you so much for hanging out with me and my guests today. If you learned anything from our episode, I would love it if you could share it over on your Instagram stories and tag me at Abigailpure until next time. Love you, mean it.