Podcast Summary: The ∞actualinfinity Podcast
Episode: The Cycle of Evasion and Pursuit
Host: Steve Mattus
Date: February 16, 2025
Episode Overview
In "The Cycle of Evasion and Pursuit," host Steve Mattus unpacks one of the most universal – and, as he describes, exquisitely agonizing – patterns of human behavior: our constant attempts to outrun discomfort and chase after some elusive state of fulfillment. Speaking candidly from his personal experiences with trauma, neurodivergence, and transformative healing, Steve reframes this cycle not as a personal failing but as a function of our nervous system and a cultural inheritance. He invites listeners to break the loop by turning toward their present experience with awareness and self-compassion, revealing the love and peace that are always already here beneath the chaos.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Universal Hamster Wheel: Evasion & Pursuit
- (01:05) Definition of the Cycle
- We try to escape discomfort (evasions like social media, achievement-chasing, or addiction) and pursue what we hope will bring relief or worthiness.
- Steve normalizes this cycle: “Our nervous systems are literally wired for this cycle. The sympathetic response often kicks in because our whole world feels dangerous.”
— Steve Mattus [02:01]
- (02:54) Validation for Listeners
- Experiencing this is not a sign of failure; it's a sign your biology is responding to perceived dangers.
2. The Role of Trauma & Neurodivergence
- (04:10) Personal context
- Steve shares his lived experience with “religious trauma, complex trauma, sexual abuse, addiction. I’m autistic. I intimately understand what it means to want to escape reality my entire life.”
- (05:15) Shame-free Invitation
- No blame is placed on those caught in the cycle; instead, compassion and understanding are extended.
3. The Ever-Present Awareness
- (06:00) Foundational Being
- Despite all changes in life, one thing is constant: awareness.
- “That awareness isn’t separate from you. It is what you fundamentally are… It is what you’ve always been.”
— Steve Mattus [07:29]
- “That awareness isn’t separate from you. It is what you fundamentally are… It is what you’ve always been.”
- Despite all changes in life, one thing is constant: awareness.
- (08:22) Awareness as Love & Peace
- The nature of this awareness is loving, peaceful.
- (09:00) Metaphor: The Ocean and the Waves
- “When we’re caught in the cycle… we’re like waves desperately trying to find the ocean, not realizing that we’re already the ocean.”
— Steve Mattus [11:51]
- “When we’re caught in the cycle… we’re like waves desperately trying to find the ocean, not realizing that we’re already the ocean.”
4. A New Response to Pain
- (10:10) Turning Towards, Not Escaping
- Real liberation happens when you stop running from discomfort and instead meet it with loving awareness.
- (11:00) Not About Transcendence or Denial
- “We are fucking human. We’re going to be messy and we’re going to have pain… I don’t believe that our purpose here is to transcend human experience. I think we’re supposed to be in our fucking experience, all of it.”
— Steve Mattus [13:12]
- “We are fucking human. We’re going to be messy and we’re going to have pain… I don’t believe that our purpose here is to transcend human experience. I think we’re supposed to be in our fucking experience, all of it.”
- (12:30) Practicality over Spiritual Bypass
- This isn’t about spiritual bypassing, denying real needs, or refusing practical help.
5. Reframing the Nervous System Paradigm
- (15:45) Current Approach is Flawed
- Many nervous system trainings reinforce the same evasion/pursuit cycle by making relaxation or the “ventral state” the goal.
- (16:40) Presence as the Path
- True healing emerges through meeting each moment as it is, not forcibly manipulating our state:
- “If we can just do that, if we can just be here now… our system naturally begins to shift.”
— Steve Mattus [18:20]
- “If we can just do that, if we can just be here now… our system naturally begins to shift.”
- True healing emerges through meeting each moment as it is, not forcibly manipulating our state:
6. The Practical Practice: Pause & Notice
- (14:00) The Miracle of Noticing
- “If you can just notice, like, oh, I’m going after this thing because I think that’s going to get me in a better place, just notice that. That would be a miracle.”
- (14:35) A Simple Invitation
- When you feel the urge to evade or pursue, pause. Breathe. Notice that both discomfort and the urge to avoid are happening in the larger space of your being.
- You don’t have to change the discomfort, escape it, or shame yourself.
- (15:02) Transformation Through Presence
- Practice this recognition repeatedly and “the cycle of evasion and pursuit dissolves naturally. And it changes absolutely everything.”
7. Closing Reflections: Trust in What’s Already Here
- (19:50) Radical Suggestion
- “What if everything you’re looking for is already here? What if you could stop running? What if you could trust that you are already the peace and love that you seek?”
— Steve Mattus [21:12]
- “What if everything you’re looking for is already here? What if you could stop running? What if you could trust that you are already the peace and love that you seek?”
- (21:30) No Quick Fixes, Only More Love
- Steve emphasizes that this isn’t about instant relief, but about showing up in reality, in complexity, and most of all, in love.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On the cycle of evasion and pursuit:
“That constant drive to escape what feels uncomfortable while chasing after what we think makes us happy… it’s like being caught in an endless hamster wheel, running and running and never actually getting anywhere.”
— Steve Mattus [01:30] -
On validating neurodivergent and traumatized experiences:
“When you’re dealing with genuine pain and trauma, the desire to get away makes complete sense. But here’s the revolutionary truth I’ve discovered: the peace, the love, and the safety we’re all desperately seeking, it’s already here.”
— Steve Mattus [05:18] -
On spiritual bypass vs. grounded practice:
“This isn’t just philosophical theory. It’s not just a spiritual paradigm. It’s practical liberation.”
— Steve Mattus [09:40] -
On embracing human messiness:
“We are fucking human. We’re going to be messy and we’re going to have pain. This is our human experience.”
— Steve Mattus [13:12] -
On noticing as miracle:
“If you could notice it, anything is possible, because we can do a lot with that. It’s then — the fact that we don’t even notice it — that keeps us stuck.”
— Steve Mattus [14:00] -
On closure and radical acceptance:
“What if you could stop running? What if you could trust that you are already the peace and love that you seek?”
— Steve Mattus [21:12]
Timestamps for Significant Segments
- 00:11 — Introduction of the core cycle and validation for listeners
- 04:10 — Steve’s personal context: trauma, neurodivergence, and escape
- 06:00 — The unchanging nature of awareness
- 11:00 — Not about transcending, but inhabiting humanity fully
- 14:00 — Noticing the cycle and beginning a practical shift
- 15:45 — Critique of conventional nervous system paradigms
- 18:20 — The simplicity and naturalness of healing through presence
- 21:12 — The final invitation to radical self-trust and love
Episode Tone and Style
Steve’s delivery is raw, direct, and deeply vulnerable. He peppers the episode with humor (“We are fucking human…”) and swearing, dismantling sanitized self-help advice in favor of authentic, lived wisdom grounded in both neuroscience and lived mystical experience. There’s an emphasis on compassion, groundedness, and the willingness to sit with the messiness, rather than escape or fix it. The message is radical in its simplicity and fiercely loving in its intent.
Key Takeaway
Instead of frantically trying to fix or escape yourself, pause, notice your experience, and recognize the awareness — the love — that’s always holding it all. Everything you’re seeking is already here, in the very heart of your lived, imperfect, irreducibly human moment.
“More love, not less – all-ways.💜™”