TAYLOR LORENZ Talks Journalism, Internet Labor, Viral Culture

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Adam Friedland Show

Episode: TAYLOR LORENZ Talks Journalism, Internet Labor, Viral Culture
Date: September 18, 2025
Guest: Taylor Lorenz (Journalist, Wired, NYT, WaPo, author of Extremely Online)

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Overview

This engaging episode of The Adam Friedland Show features a deep, frequently irreverent conversation with internet culture journalist Taylor Lorenz. The discussion dives into the evolving landscape of online influence, the legitimacy of internet labor, the toxicity—and necessity—of “personal branding” for journalists, and the complex interplay between tech platforms, free speech, and political power. The episode is at once celebratory and critical of the internet, offering frank insights from the frontline of digital journalism.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Wired “Dark Money” Story ([03:35]–[05:43])

• Taylor Lorenz’s Recent Report: Adam asks Taylor to summarize her recent Wired feature, which exposed a covert program funneling Democratic Party money to a network of around 90 political influencers.
• Controversy and Backlash: Taylor notes that many influencers exposed in her piece responded by attacking both her and others.
  • “They were secretly taking thousands of dollars a month as part of this Democrat messaging. And, yeah, they spent the past few weeks crashing out and slandering me…” – Taylor ([04:41])

Taylor’s Internet Roots and Journalism Trajectory ([07:14]–[12:13])

• Becoming “Extremely Online”: Taylor reflects on how she began her career as a content creator on Tumblr, wrangling temp jobs and posting viral content, which led to agency gigs and eventually media roles.
• Legitimizing Influencer Journalism:
  • “I was, like, very early to embrace the, like, influencer journalist thing, and that made a lot of people in, like, mainstream media really mad at me.” – Taylor ([09:02])
• Early Social Media Jobs: From managing the Verizon Wireless Facebook account (“My favorite moment...the 10th anniversary of 9/11, thank God. And they wanted to put the Verizon logo in the lights…” – Taylor, [10:16]), to launching Daily Mail’s social channels, Taylor charted the commodification of internet content and labor.

The Rise and Changing Faces of Influencers ([17:27]–[18:58])

• Evolution Since Vine: The conversation moves from the Vine-era Paul brothers to today’s cross-platform, cash-flush “creator economy.”
  • “The biggest change…is just the money and the legitimacy.” – Taylor ([18:57])
• Platform Power & Labor: Early influencer demands for payment are described as a tipping point that led to platform-hopping and serious money entering the space.

The Internet—A Miserable Equalizer? ([19:03]–[20:28])

• Does the Internet Suck for Celebrities?:
  • “Do influencers or celebs know how much the internet, like, sucks for everyone else?” – Adam ([19:03])
  • Taylor contends that it sucks for them too, but admits that most wouldn’t stay online if it weren’t for the money.
• Online Anonymity & Surveillance: Taylor highlights the loss of privacy and the rise of facial-recognition tools ([21:43]), noting new forms of surveillance enabled by platforms like PIM Eyes.

Censorship, Free Speech and Section 230 ([22:18]–[25:22])

• Liberal vs. Conservative Censorship: Taylor warns of increasing bipartisan appetite for internet censorship, citing legislative pushes like the Kids Online Safety Act.
  • “Liberals want censorship of right wing ideas and right wingers want censorship of, you know, trans stuff and reproductive justice. They just want to censor each other.” – Taylor ([23:45])
• The Dangers of Age Verification: Taylor cautions that demands for strict age verification risk ending online anonymity, with severe consequences for speech, journalism, and activism.

Branding, Bias, and Journalist Authenticity ([31:14]–[34:36])

• The “Neutral Journalist” Myth: Taylor dismisses the idea of journalistic objectivity, arguing it’s better to be open about one’s beliefs:
  • “Journalism is not a neutral act. Every editorial decision is made to present a certain version of events… I think that that’s an antiquated view of journalism…” – Taylor ([32:23])
• Trust and Transparency: She proposes that transparency about bias builds more audience trust than “farce” neutrality.

The Attention Economy and Influencer Accountability ([34:36]–[38:18])

• Downsides of “Personal Brand” Journalism: Taylor recognizes the perverse incentives the attention economy creates for journalists and critics:
  • “Now you can’t rely on [the mainstream media for attention]. So you have to do it yourself.” – Taylor ([35:22])
• Beef in the Creator Space: Adam asks about Taylor’s “shit list” and reporting on figures like MrBeast and right-wing influencers, and the sometimes unintended consequences (cancelled shows, hate fandoms).

Virality, NIL, and Internet Impacts on Sports ([38:28]–[39:07])

• Viral Videos Change Recruiting: Taylor once reported on how viral high school highlights upended college basketball recruiting—a process thrown into new chaos by NIL (name, image, likeness) deals.

Right-Wing Mastery of Online Media ([40:05]–[41:16])

• Personality-driven Ecosystem: Taylor credits the right with savvy, early development of alternative online media systems and influencer tactics driven by feeling sidelined by traditional media.

Personal Toll and Harassment ([42:30]–[44:01])

• Swatting and Online Abuse: Taylor discusses being targeted with severe forms of harassment, including “swatting”—false calls to police directed at her and her family.
  • “What I care about is people swatting my parents.” – Taylor ([42:51])
• Coping Mechanisms: While she shrugs off Twitter trending and online hate, she’s frustrated by real-world consequences.

Free Speech, Civil Liberties, and Corporate Internet ([47:31]–[50:11])

• Her Core Cause Now: Taylor’s main issue is defending online free speech, critiquing both "liberal" and "corporate" moves to limit it.
  • “I really care about speech online and if I had to sort of think about like, I feel like if I have to pick an issue that I want people to understand, it’s that one.” – Taylor ([50:10])
• Capitalism and Platform Power: Taylor suggests that many online pathologies are products of market concentration (Google, Meta, X), not an excess of speech per se—calling for regulation and more user control.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Internet Labor:
  “I’m gonna write my own articles about how, like, this is labor and, like, this is work and, like, Internet labor is real labor.” — Taylor Lorenz ([10:44])
• On the 2016 Election Night:
  “It was like, forum admins and, like, influencers and content creator, Internet People… that election was so defined by the Internet and new media.” — Taylor Lorenz ([12:36])
• On “Objectivity” in Journalism:
  “Journalism is not a neutral act. Every editorial decision is made to present a certain version of events… I think it’s much better to be open about my beliefs.” — Taylor Lorenz ([32:23])
• On Section 230 and Free Speech:
  “It’s the law that guarantees a free Internet… It allows for you to have basically any platform to sort of like host your speech…” – Taylor ([22:45])
• On Censorship & Legislation:
  “That’s why they can come together on these really dangerous, bad, bad, bad, dangerous censorship laws. Like the Kids Online Safety Act.” – Taylor ([23:43])
• On Harassment and Swatting:
  “What I care about is people swatting my parents. You know, like, that shit’s happening.” — Taylor Lorenz ([42:51])
• On the Attention Economy:
  “I think I’ve always had a very realistic view of the attention economy and always had a very realistic view of who I’m actually competing with…podcasters, with YouTubers…” — Taylor Lorenz ([35:22])
• On Her Project and Ambition:
  “I want people to recognize the dynamics of our Internet. Sort of help educate people about the attention economy and take it seriously… I’m very focused on speech. Free speech and protecting free speech online.” – Taylor ([46:48])

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Important Timestamps

• Wired “Dark Money” story summary: [03:35]–[05:43]
• Taylor’s media career beginnings: [07:14]–[12:13]
• Rise of influencer legitimacy: [17:27]–[18:58]
• Section 230 and censorship debate: [22:18]–[25:22]
• Neutrality, bias, and trust in journalism: [31:14]–[34:36]
• Beef in digital culture, MrBeast, and fallout: [36:07]–[38:18]
• Swatting, harassment, and coping: [42:30]–[44:01]
• Speech, platform power, and regulation: [47:31]–[50:11]

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Tone and Style

• Candid, irreverent, and deeply online: Both Adam and Taylor joke constantly, oscillate between self-deprecation and incisive critique, and maintain a conversational, sometimes chaotic energy.
• Critical but nuanced: The episode is skeptical of both traditional and new media, holding all power structures–corporate, political, and technological–to account.

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This episode will especially resonate with listeners curious about journalism’s changing rules, the evolution and legitimacy of influencer labor, and the ongoing tensions between speech, anonymity, and platform power on the modern internet.

Transcript

[A]

Do influencers or celebs know how much the Internet, like, sucks for everyone else?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think it sucks for them, too.

[A]

No, it doesn't.

[B]

What are you talking about? They get, like. Well, they get money, but, I mean, I don't.

[A]

Well, they get money.

[B]

They got. They get money. The people get money.

[A]

They get more money than Austin Butler, probably. Would you be online if you were making $0?

[B]

Probably not. No. No, no, no, no, no, no.

[A]

I don't know. It's scary. It's like you can see people getting killed and then. And then the nword I. It's too scary. Hello and welcome back to the Adam Friedland Show. Guys, it's finally here. The merch. The merch. The merch. We've been talking about it for weeks. You guys have saw me preview last week. I said, it'll be here any day now. It's finally launching. And for our members and patrons, you have access, early access, and discount codes for all merch drops moving forward, as well as early access to episodes. If you'd like to become a member or a patron, please hit the join button at the top of this page or the link in the description of this video below. For patreon and for YouTube memberships, we got three new shirts, plus the classic Adam Friedland logo shirt and one hat. And I think you guys are gonna look fucking sex. You guys are gonna look sex in them. You think so? Yeah. You've been wearing it. No. No. So once again, it's the TV glow shirt. What are the other names? Put it on the screen. The logo shirt. The logo shirt. The doodle shirt. I don't really like it, actually. That's based on a shirt that we found Jay Leno made for the Tonight Show. Not a big deal. Pretty cool. And plus the TV glow shirt that. That's kind of based on, like, the CRT monitor. Kind of a Videodrome kind of Cronenberg style.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then we have this hat, guys. I have pictures of hot girls wearing them. I'll be posting them all week. And of course, the classic Adam Friedland show logo shirt. Go to Adam theadamfriedland Show and shop there for any of these shirts. The Adam Friedland show. TheAdamFridland show for merch. My guest this week is journalist and podcaster Taylor Lorenz. Taylor has been in the news recently for a bombshell report she published in Wired magazine highlighting dark money funneled from the Democratic Party to political influencers across platforms. A damning piece of reporting that we fail to mention in the episode. Because it was recorded, like, how long ago? Yeah, a couple months ago, actually now. So we missed the big. You probably clicked for that. So why don't I call her? Yeah, I'm gonna hit her up. She can catch you up. So it's like. Okay, calling Taylor. She'll catch us up. Hey, so you're. Howdy. Oh, wait, are we. Am I. I'm not, like, recorded right now. Are you. Are you. Is this off the. Is this on the record? I don't know how to talk to you people.

[B]

You're on the record.

[A]

Well, no, you're on the record, actually. You're on the record. Okay. Bastard. Two could play at that game. Anyway, so we're about to drop your episod episode, but, you know, we did, like, like two years ago or something, so I just wanted to catch up for our audience, like, if you could just, like, tell us a little bit about your Wired piece just so we can kind of like, just mention that and, you know, have, like, as if you were on the show. And I said, so, Taylor, tell me about the Wired piece. So if you want to just. Yeah, does that make sense? Okay, yeah. Oh, sorry.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah, go ahead.

[B]

Anyway.

[A]

No, just kidding. Go ahead.

[B]

I published the story with Wired a couple weeks ago. Now, at this point, documenting a program that was being run in secret, basically, where a bunch of Democrat influencers were receiving money.

[A]

And it's like a. Like, it's gained a lot of. It's controversial or something. They're getting.

[B]

Well, this influencer network has allegedly about 90 influencers in it, and it won't surprise you to know that they don't like being reported on very critically. So I revealed that they were secretly taking thousands of dollars a month as part of this Democrat messaging. And, yeah, they spent the past few weeks crashing out and slandering me and slandering you.

[A]

Oh, man, I'm sorry about that. Anyway, yeah, it's terrible. So that's. That's. That's horrible. Anyway, just for the record, did. Just for our audience, I think this is like, I. I just. To. To maintain the trust that our audience has in us, but, like, did you ever see my name anywhere in any of those lists or whatever reports or.

[B]

Yeah. Did your name come up in the reporting? Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, what do you mean?

[A]

Yeah, what do you mean, a good question? Did you see my name anywhere in it? Just.

[B]

Yes. No. No, your name did not.

[A]

All right.

[B]

You were not. You were not on the list. You did not.

[A]

Okay. All right. Yeah. Okay, Cool. Sweet. Yeah. Okay. Nice. Yeah. Hope you enjoy your. Your Tuesday. Okay. Or Monday or whatever. I mean, it's coming out on two. I'm gonna. Okay. Yeah. Well, you won't see it there because they. They won't work with me because I am. Anyway. Okay. Have a nice day. Yeah, congrats about Wired or whatever. Whatever that's called. Bye. So, yeah, so there's that. I'm innocent and. Yeah. Enjoy the interview. It's really good with her. Journalist Lightning rod. The lightning rod. Our next guest is an independent journalist. She's also previously worked at outlets like the New York Times, the Washington Post. She cut her teeth covering Internet culture. Ladies and gentlemen, Taylor Lorenz. Thank you. Is it this or this?

[B]

Pleasure.

[A]

I don't know you. I don't know. I feel so. I took a PCR for you, though.

[B]

I know. Thank you.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I have no immune system, unfortunately.

[A]

Is it tough, like, just like, operating that way?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And people are mean to you. They're like you're illusion.

[B]

Yeah. I hate it. They're like, fuck you.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's tough. Everyone here is in hazmat suits right now.

[B]

No, it's annoying, but I would say, like, I mean, I'm in a bunch of documentaries and stuff, and like, they usually still take precautions on set for

[A]

stuff in this show. I. As I was telling you before, like, I've made a living on the Internet, but I haven't interacted as much with the Internet as most people. I like kind of mainly just watch movies and stuff and sports and in. In these interviews. I've been kind of discovering this ecosystem and it's been incredibly stressful. But from what I understand, this has been your focus for like, what, the last 10 years of your life?

[B]

Fifteen at this point.

[A]

And it. And in your estimation, like, has that. Has it driven you. It must have driven you insane.

[B]

I think it probably drove me insane a long time ago. And now I'm just like the frog in water.

[A]

How do you. How do you cope with, like, the. The insanity of, like, your. Your area of focus is the Internet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It must have take like a.

[B]

Psychological and influencers. Not even just the Internet. It's like online influence.

[A]

Well, they're awesome. We love them.

[B]

Greatest minds of our generation.

[A]

Who's the best one?

[B]

Oh, I can't pick favorites, really. Maybe you.

[A]

I shall speed.

[B]

Oh, influencer. I love speed.

[A]

I'm influencer.

[B]

Yeah. I think podcasters are influencers at this point.

[A]

I'm not. I'm former podcaster.

[B]

Former podcaster. Well, showman. YouTube is the show on YouTube.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Am I a YouTuber?

[B]

You're a YouTuber now?

[A]

Oh, yve, I will say the one thought I used to have. You know that one thought you have about yourself, it's like you're trying to fall asleep, and it's like, the worst. It's just like the biggest, like, like, most awful, like, thought about yourself, and then you're, like, trying to fall asleep, and you're like. Like, that was that You're. That. I'm a podcaster who lives in Brooklyn, and I feel like I've retired from that, and it feels so good. Now I'm a YouTuber.

[B]

Now you're a YouTuber that lives in Brooklyn.

[A]

Jesus Christ. I should kill myself.

[B]

I don't know. I was, like, very early to embrace the, like, influencer journalist thing, and that made a lot of people in, like, mainstream media really mad at me.

[A]

It was seen as trash.

[B]

Yeah. They were like, ah.

[A]

But I mean, to some extent, you were, like, the first person to recognize that as, like, a force in popular culture.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, maybe like, the first person in journalism to, like, really make it a beat. I started on Tumblr after college. Yeah, it was the recession. I was temping, but it was just like, I don't know. I got good at making viral content.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And this girl at Tumblr, like, I got pretty popular on there, and, like, media people started to follow me, and I was like, maybe I should be in, like, media or something, or, like, marketing. I don't know. I just didn't know what I was doing, you know? And this girl at Tumblr had me into the office and was like, yeah, like, what are you doing? And I was like, I work these temp jobs and I'm working. I was working as a messenger. I was working retail. And so she helped me get into advertising. And then I was doing social media for brands and writing about copywriting and. Yeah, and then I ran. I wrote for the Verizon Wireless Facebook page.

[A]

Oh, my God. Yeah, that was her. That was her.

[B]

My favorite moment from that job. It was the 10th anniversary of 9 11, thank God. And they wanted to put the Verizon logo in the lights. They wanted to do a Facebook post that was like, I don't think that's funny. 4G. We kept it going.

[A]

Yeah. Verizon wanted to add.

[B]

They wanted to do that. And I just remember being like, this was like, before there was even really backlash to brands online. But I was like, I feel like, we shouldn't do that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And then I was writing. I was blogging, always writing about influencers when I was big on Tumblr. Like, other people that were big on Tumblr were like, fuck Jerry the fat Jew. And a lot of, like, early YouTubers. And the mainstream media was like, writing really stupid articles about them. And I was like, I'm gonna write my own articles about how, like, this is labor and, like, this is work and, like, Internet labor is real labor.

[A]

Memes is labor.

[B]

Yeah, it's hard labor to make.

[A]

Well, so you approached it as a content creator and then went into journalism. Yeah, it's interesting.

[B]

I was always. I always had, like an audience online, even before I was in journalism. And then I went into doing. I ran the People magazine Vine account. I was doing, like, social media for, like, media brands. I launched all the Daily Mails. So social media channels.

[A]

What was it like working for them bastards?

[B]

It was great. I mean, it was like a crazy job because they just. I was the youngest woman in, like, senior management. Cause they, like, this was 2012 when, like, if you knew how to, like, do anything on the Internet and get traffic for them, they were just like, oh, my God. So, like, I got to go this, like, executive retreat in a castle in England and tell them about, like, Facebook with Rupert. Rupert doesn't own the Daily Mail. It's Paul Dacre. It's like, it's the Roth. I can't remember their name, but it's a different right wing family in England.

[A]

But I mean, at this point, we can see that, like, it's had. I mean, it's just. It is culture at this point.

[B]

Oh, well, now, is there.

[A]

Is that still up for debate amongst legacy media?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The legacy media. I mean, I know I. It's interesting because, like, I. I was at. So I covered the first. I had a Snapchat show in 2016. I covered the first Trump. So they were like, did you get a quibi deal? Quibi? No. I wish.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

They were just throwing money out. They were throwing money out. I know.

[A]

Katzenberg, where are you, dude? Give me something for this.

[B]

He should have relaunched.

[A]

I would sell this to anyone. I would sell this to fucking Lockheed Martin if they.

[B]

But I just wanna say, like, in 2016, I was at the Hilton in the room when Trump won. And not many media reporters even bothered to get. Yeah. Credentialed for that. And it was all like, Internet people. It was like forum admins and like, influencers and like, content creator, Internet People that election, even though all these liberals were like, it was Russia that put him in office or whatever, like, that election was so defined by the Internet and new media. And I think it. I don't think it was until this election the mainstream media even started to notice that, like, oh, we're actually becoming irrelevant. I think it was like, when Trump started to put these people in the press briefing room and all this stuff.

[A]

What was that night? Because my impression was always like, that was one of the most insane things I've ever seen in my entire life. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was at the Chapo Trap House live show.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And they wrote an entire show to be like, congrats, Hillary. Right. And as it was falling apart that night, I was like, this is the funniest thing in the world. And then I went to a bar. You know that picture of Paris the day after the Nazis took over?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there's those pictures. There's those, like, the citizens of Paris that are like, we have lost Paris. Yeah. And like, they're like. They're. That is what Brooklyn looked like at the time. My impression was like, those pictures of Trump in the war room was like, he didn't want to win.

[B]

Oh, he didn't want to win. He didn't think he was going to. And no one at the party thought he was going to win either.

[A]

So funny.

[B]

And it was so funny. And then they were going insane. I stayed there. I stayed up all night that night. I stayed there until 6:30 in the morning. That party went all night. And then I went and got in line outside the New Yorker Hotel to cover Hillary's concession speech, where everyone was just weeping. Yeah. Everyone was like, you went to Afton, said Hillary. Yeah. And she was like, oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You did Molly at the Deplorable. No, no, no, you didn't.

[B]

I had some. I think I had some, maybe a drink or two, but.

[A]

Ooh, yeah. With. With who? Like the. The QAnon caveman.

[B]

I was making. Yeah. I was making.

[A]

Do you remember the moment he walked out?

[B]

Oh, absolutely. I have it on camera.

[A]

It is. It is maybe one of the most. Because I just smoked weed and then I laughed and I was like, donald Trump from Apprentice just became the president. And then. And then he walked out on stage and he's a big old stupid, like. Like, body. And it was kind of in silhouette, and it was like, you can do

[B]

it what you wanted.

[A]

And I was like. I was, like, blazed. And I was like, this is the most insane thing I've ever seen in My entire life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The coral part of you can't always get what you want.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, like, just. It. It was like. I think a moment of, like, this is, like, a. It's douchey to say this, but I'm like, this is one of the greatest works of art I've ever seen in my entire life.

[B]

This past election, I didn't think we were gonna get. I was like, there's no way we're gonna. He's not gonna do it twice. That election, I was like, 100%. He's winning, and I have the receipts.

[A]

How do you didn't know 100%.

[B]

Not 100%. But I was telling people that I thought he was gonna win because I was doing Facebook stuff and Internet. Like, I mean, I was working social media, and, like, well, when Bernie was. I covered Bernie for the first three months before he dropped out. Ripley obviously was like that anyway. But Bernie would do well on Facebook. But, like, Trump was just like, the Internet. There was this, like, groundswell of support online that, like, no liberals were taking. Like, liberals were in, like, full. Just delusion. They were delusional about it, and they were so delusional about the Internet and delusional about, like, I think they were just, like, delusional.

[A]

I've been going through, like, an archive of Howard Stern. Like, I grew up listening to Stern a lot, and he went on, like, almost a hundred times, and I've been, like, listening back to them because, like, as an interviewer, like, he is one of the most difficult interview subjects, right? Like, he. If you're untethered to the truth, you know, like, if you say, oh, like, do you know Roy Cohn? He's like, I never met him. Like, what do you do, right? When you know that he knows the guy, right? But Howard, the way that he kind of, like, massages his ego and then gets anything out, just like, does Melania Dwaynel with you? And he's like, oh, Howard. I would never say. I would never say. But one thing that Trump recognized was, I think polite society saw Howard's audience as trash, right? But he realized the size of the audience, and he built the Apprentice into the number two rated program after the Super Bowl. And I think that that was kind of a proto, like, maga, like, realization he's had, because he's not really a businessman. He's from television.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, he's very good at that.

[A]

I want to talk about, like, covering influencers, though, and then go back to, like, contemporary politics. Like, how. How has that ecosystem changed Like, Like, I think a lot about what the Paul brothers were in 2015 versus what they are now. And like, what are the conditions that you've. You've noticed that have sustained careers and what has killed a career?

[B]

You know, there's just so much more money in this space. There's so much more legitimacy. 2015, I mean, the Paul brothers came vine, and I write about this in my book Extremely Online. That was sort of when people started to become like multi platform before they were very associated with one platform. When Vine. Well, no, after Vine. So vine started to decline. There was this famous meeting where 19 or 20 of the biggest Viners I wrote, you know, got together and demanded money from Vine. They were like, we're making you guys so much money.

[A]

Like King Batch.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

What happened to him? He's dead.

[B]

Oh, no, he's around.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But yeah, it was that era. And so they wanted money from the platform. The platform. The platform was just owned by Twitter, didn't want to give them money because they were worried that every celebrity would then want to be paid for their tweets and they just didn't also have the money. So. So they sort of really started to go to YouTube and become these multi platform stars. And that was also when all this money started to really pour into the space. And that was like the beginning of the prank era of YouTube and you saw all these people take off. But I would say like the biggest change of the past 20 years really since the content creator industry started, is like just the money and the legitimacy.

[A]

Do influencers or celebs know how much the Internet, like sucks for everyone else?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think it sucks for them too.

[A]

No, it doesn't.

[B]

What are you talking about? They get like. Well, they get money, but I mean, I don't.

[A]

Well, they get money.

[B]

They got. They get money. The people get more money.

[A]

They get more money than fucking Austin Butler, probably.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that's true. A lot of them are making money. But the ones that don't make money, I'm always fascinated by. Because it's like, that's everyone on the Internet. Well, those. Right, exactly. The average people that spend all day online.

[A]

Would you be online if you were making zero dollars?

[B]

Not. No, no, no, no, no, no.

[A]

I don't know. It's scary. It's like you can see people getting killed and then fucking. And then the N word. It's too scary. Is that free speech or Elon's making

[B]

it that it's not free speech. He banned a bunch of journalists. I Got banned. I got back on though.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah, I got banned.

[A]

You think? Just this as an aside, but like you have a autoimmune disorder from COVID

[B]

Not autoimmune, but an immune. Autoimmune is when you're immune works over time. My immune system basically does not work enough.

[A]

Autoimmune means you have really good immune.

[B]

It's like overworking your immune system. My immune system.

[A]

So AIDS is good? What? I don't.

[B]

No, AIDS is not. HIV is not.

[A]

Is that auto. No, no. Okay. I don't, I'm not, I don't, I don't. Whatever. Okay. But like you think wearing a mask, like masking up, you think that makes you a better like you're, you could be sneakier as a journalist.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

It's kind of good for you. I think people like don't know that they're sitting next to the journalist.

[B]

I think the only one still masking in 2025. I feel like, I mean you could

[A]

be in public and they're like, there's some masked person but it turns out to be lightning rod infamous journalist Taylor Lorenz.

[B]

I will say I was at the inauguration this year in a bunch of inauguration parties for Trump and yeah I was. I think the only person masked was Huktua. There she was not, but some others affiliated with her were around.

[A]

Who's affiliated with Hakutua?

[B]

Like other random influencers.

[A]

Oh God, so trashy. Okay, you think that maybe. I think. You know what is fair. You guys used to wear like a fedora with like a little book.

[B]

The Reddit people.

[A]

No, like journalists.

[B]

Oh journalists, yes. With a little like press badge or whatever.

[A]

Yeah. And then you know who the journalist is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, now you don't know. You know, you could be out in public, you might be saying something. You guys should wear those like you think. I think you guys should wear those vests from like war zones. Blue vest.

[B]

That's like press with the fedora.

[A]

Just because I say I mess up things that I say all the time.

[B]

But people don't need to be a journalist to like now we just have this like crowdsourced surveillance state where everyone's recording everyone at all times, like everywhere you go, you know.

[A]

Really? Yeah, not all the time.

[B]

A lot of the time I think with facial. I don't know if you've ever used the website. Have you ever heard of PIM Eyes? Oh, you gotta search yourself on PIM Eyes.

[A]

I don't wanna look.

[B]

It's like one of those websites where it scans Internet for your face and you'll find yourself. I mean, I found myself in like parties from like Williamsburg in 2011.

[A]

Nice. Animal Collective.

[B]

Yeah. It's like that. I was living in Williamsburg in 2011. I thought it was like peak cool.

[A]

I want to go back because I'm getting off track again. But like, as someone that's covered this, like, do you think we could fix it?

[B]

I do believe in like the, I do believe in like an open web and free speech and the Internet's democratizing power. I don't. I think what's been really scary in liberal and leftist spaces over the past 10 years really is this regression where they're so pro censorship, so pro they want to fucking dismantle section 230. Like they want to.

[A]

What was that?

[B]

It's basically the law that guarantees a free Internet. It allows for you to have basically any platform to sort of like host your speech for. If I wanted to sue you, I'm suing you and not the platform. So it, it protects platform's ability to publish a wide, you know, wide variety of things.

[A]

Is it protects Google from getting sued?

[B]

Yeah. And if sued for defamation, like sued

[A]

for defamation, you can make a lot more money if you get them in the lawsuit too. Be sick.

[B]

Well, they would just shut down. Like, I mean, the point is they would stop. They wouldn't shut down. They would stop hosting sports. And that's the concern. They sort of pre censor things with like the Kids Online Safety act and this panic over children, you know, like having open access to information about like trans people when they're teenagers. It's caused these platforms to pre censor a lot of stuff. And I think a lot of these platforms have become way too censorious. We don't have enough free speech online, you're saying.

[A]

But liberals aren't telling them to censor trans people.

[B]

Liberals, Liberals want censorship of right wing ideas and right wingers want censorship of, you know, trans stuff and reproductive justice. They just want to censor each other. And that's why they can come together on these really dangerous, bad, bad, bad, dangerous censorship laws. Like the Kids Online Safety Act. Like the Take it down act.

[A]

You mentioned kids. It's like, I didn't, I'm 38. So like, we didn't have like, like I couldn't just watch porn like, like, like, like pornhub style. I had to go searching for it. I had to like, like people would like hide it in the woods and stuff like that in the woods. And I feel like, I don't know, maybe it's like, I don't. Maybe it's fucked kids up like that at 11. They can just see people fucking any. You know, it's like maybe that's a little bit not speech.

[B]

But here's the thing.

[A]

I'm open to that.

[B]

Yeah, I'm sure. I think when you frame it that way, it feeds into a moral panic. I think that, I think that what you're asking for. It seems like what you're advocating for is age verification online. I think you need to weigh the upsides and the downsides, right? Like, could an 11 year old see porn online? Maybe. But do you want this comprehensive age verification system where everything you do online is tied to your offline identity? That's what they're trying to build right now.

[A]

What does that mean?

[B]

Basically remove anonymous speech online. So right now you can go on a website, right? And the government doesn't know who's browsing what website, who's consuming what content, who's posting what a lot of the times. Right. Just really essential to democracy. It's really essential to free speech, activism, journalism, stuff like that. Right. So we want anonymity on the Internet.

[A]

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[B]

like, I think we did.

[A]

I mean, we could guess, but he wasn't like.

[B]

He wasn't over it. Badass.

[A]

He wasn't like, fuck. Rest and piss Biden. Did you say that? Rest and piss Biden.

[B]

I did.

[A]

You're doing.

[B]

You know what you're doing.

[A]

You know what you're doing?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what you're doing?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what you're doing. You know, like these like journo DC

[B]

blue check types, they'll take it every.

[A]

Take it.

[B]

Yeah, they'll take it every time. Every time.

[A]

What is the. What is the line between someone that's playing the game, someone that's covering the game, and where do you exist in that? In that spectrum?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I do hate. I will say I believe. I believe that shit. Like, I don't. I hate Joe Biden. Like, I think he is a.

[A]

Sure. But you're trying to piss off other fucking. Other people in your fucking industry that are you. I mean, it's a. You live in a world of scoundrels and you're Trying to, like, piss off, I don't know, the Atlantic.

[B]

I like to get a rise out of these people that I think are sort of just fundamentally unserious. Like, they're lying. Like, their whole thing of, like, we don't have. We don't have an agenda, we don't have an opinion. I think now especially, I mean, considering the context of Gaza, like, we see that the media does have an agenda, and the media does have a certain political stand and certain journalists at these places, I mean, all journalists. Journalism is not a neutral act. Every editorial decision is made to present a certain version of events. And so I just think it's a farce to not acknowledge that. And I've always. And this is why a lot of these mainstream media people hate me is like I said for a long time, sort of from the jump, that I think that that's an antiquated view of journalism, and I think it's much better to be open about my beliefs and people can disagree.

[A]

But does it color, like, people's interpretation? Because they're gonna be like, she's like, Fox News, right? Yeah, was like, I feel like things changed because they were like, this is a brand of journalism. And I think that, like, I guess it's an interesting question.

[B]

Journalists have always had brands.

[A]

Does that color your analysis as a liberal or leftist? Or, like, you know, like, does that, like, instead of, like, oh, I'm. I'm finding sources and I'm telling a story, and I have, like, professional ethics,

[B]

but I'm not lying about it. Like, what bothers me about traditional media is that they're lying. Like, they're not and not all of them, of course. And there's a.

[A]

When did I ever lie? Joe Biden was fine.

[B]

He was doing great, guys, I think, you know, just. I think that. Again, I think this concept of neutrality is a farce. I don't think it's neutral. I've worked in these newsrooms, too. Sometimes they're trying to get. They're actively trying to get laws changed. Right? Like, they're trying to do certain things. And I just think that we should be honest about it. And I will say that is what I think the public. What has caused the public to. And I wrote so much about this in my book, but what has caused so much of the public to lose trust in mainstream media? Is that farce? Is that sort of. Well, this is just. We're not like, CNN being like, you know. Well, we're totally neutral and, you know, but the war in Iraq is necessary and they do have whatever. You know, people lie about all these different major events and now people have the Internet, they can see these lies. And I think it builds. I don't think I know that it builds trust among my audience to know where I stand on things. A lot of people in my audience don't agree with me, but they know my political ideology and they know that I'm going to come with a certain perspective that I'm not trying to conceal.

[A]

If you're performing a public spat, do you think it's building a brand for yourself and do you think that that distracts from hard journalism or do you think that benefits your.

[B]

I think it totally depends on the type of reporter that you are. Yeah, like, I don't love the system that we have now where there's so many amazing journalists that are not sort of good at manipulating the Internet and aren't ability, like don't have a good ability to get attention or make a TikTok or whatever that are just doing phenomenal investigative journalism. Right. And now they feel like they have to be a brand and they have to do all this stuff. That's a very broken system. I would love to live in a world that, that is not, I think in the current version of the Internet that we have. You know, it is this reality that attention is necessary. And that's always been the case. They sort of offloaded and they would offload that. I mean, you used to be able to depend on a mainstream media brand to sort of deliver you audience, deliver you attention to your stories. Now you can't rely on that. So you have to do it yourself. I just, I think I've always had a very realistic view of the attention economy and always had a very realistic view of who I'm actually competing with and who I'm competing with for attention online. And I don't think I compete with other traditional media journalists as much as I compete with podcasters, with YouTubers, with these other people. And so I've always.

[A]

Shit list.

[B]

Who's on my shit list?

[A]

Yeah. Who you trying to fuck with?

[B]

Oh, God, I don't know. But I wouldn't say I intentionally like start beefs. I report quite bit a critically on influencers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, when I did that big Mr. Beast story in 2021 about his labor violations or whatever, I had like Phil DeFranco making videos about me. Like, I've always had a beat that sort of.

[A]

What did he do?

[B]

Oh, he made this video saying I was. Did a hit piece in it.

[A]

No. What did Mr. Beast do?

[B]

What did Mr. Beast do? He did. He was.

[A]

Because he's a fine individual.

[B]

Yeah, well, he was doing some labor. He had some labor. Some labor issues.

[A]

Like a sweatshop.

[B]

Hey. He was debatably torturing his employees.

[A]

I mean, he tortures people on his show all the time.

[B]

Well, I think that was the thing. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

The show is the Stanford Prison Experiment.

[B]

Yeah. He was also signing people to respond

[A]

to desperate people like, Please, Mr.

[B]

Beast, I went to Greenville to do a story on the economic impact these had on Greenville. And like the town. And it's bizarre because everyone.

[A]

People move in there so they get a free iPhone and stuff.

[B]

There's.

[A]

That's awesome.

[B]

The whole town is like, China, Please, China.

[A]

Please, China. This is against Christ. Continue. Sorry.

[B]

The town is just like, everyone's sort of hoping that he might come into their business, give them. And they'd be like, oh, I heard Jimmy's video. He's gonna make this video. So Jake Paul has said that he wants to run for president. He's eligible in 2035. Jake Paul, I don't think he can do it. I think Mr. Beast. Mr. Beast said he wants to run for office.

[A]

We need speed against Beast. Decide.

[B]

Well, I'm voting speed.

[A]

Yeah. Beast, Republican speed. China. What's the worst you ever ruined someone's life?

[B]

I wouldn't say I ruined someone's life. I report critically on people that are

[A]

doing scams on the for real tip. Even if they're a bad guy. What's the most eviscerated you ever did?

[B]

The way the attention economy works, like all press can be good press. So I don't know that I.

[A]

So you're hyping.

[B]

But I mean, I've gotten people's like shows canceled, I guess on like networks and stuff. I don't know what shows I got the girls from the. More. Pamela Geller's daughters. You know who Pamela Geller is? Famous. Just a crazy right wing influencer. Yeah, she. She has these two extremist daughters who had this podcast on like Yahoo Network or something.

[A]

You got a podcast? Yahoo. Yahoo Podcast.

[B]

Yahoo Podcast. And now I think like somebody. Their fandom like really hates me for that.

[A]

I don't know who these people are. Pamela Geller went sort of speed, Mr. Beast. Pretty much.

[B]

That's all you need to know.

[A]

LeBron Luka.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Jalen Preston.

[B]

I know the sports world. You know that I did a story years ago for the Atlantic about how viral videos were making college basketball recruiters like, visit high schools that they Wouldn't previously because, like, these teenagers would go viral and like, how that was affecting the recruiting process and.

[A]

Well, that's been like thrown into chaos now.

[B]

Oh, now? Yeah, I followed.

[A]

I mean, obviously nil, because they can make money now. So they have to like recruit four year olds.

[B]

Yeah. And like, they have to like pay

[A]

off a corrupt family member of a four year old in the middle of Iowa or something. Like, we saw your boy, but it's

[B]

like interesting to see.

[A]

You want to get him signed to CIA.

[B]

No, literally.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But also, like, they have. I went to CU Boulder, and like, we have Deion Sanders now and like Prime. Prime. Coach prime, which is, you know. But it's like, interesting.

[A]

Like, did you chill with Steinie?

[B]

Did I go. I didn't. I don't think we. I don't know if he overlapped, but I didn't know him in college.

[A]

His nickname was Xanax at his frat.

[B]

Really? What frat was he in? I was a sorority girl in college.

[A]

What sorority were you?

[B]

Alpha Fee.

[A]

Did we just break that scoop? Did we just break that? What was Alpha Fee like? I was bitches mean.

[B]

No, it was. It was. It was chill.

[A]

No, it wasn't.

[B]

It was not.

[A]

What did you guys do?

[B]

They were bullying.

[A]

Who were you mean to the ugly girl sorority?

[B]

Everyone was really mean. It was like. It was. I don't know, it was like the late 2000s.

[A]

Like, it's kind of interesting. It probably prepped you for like the world of journalism.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Greek life.

[B]

Greek life, yeah.

[A]

Why do you think that the right wing has done the Internet better?

[B]

Oh, they've always had a very personality driven media ecosystem. I mean, even since the days of like talk radio, they've always. Yeah, fire.

[A]

I mean, yeah, he did that job every day. Geeked off of. He was like, future. He just hopped in the booth. Perfect.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he was on fucking perks.

[B]

I mean, so many of them are just March Madness phenomenal, like entertainers and good at getting attention and good at having opinion. They also, because they felt like they never were gonna get a fair shot from like the traditional media, which they feel like, which I think is probably true. It's like very much more sympathetic to Democrats. Like, they always had to build this alternative media structure and they recognized the power of the Internet, really, in the early 2010s, like Bannon and this sort of like newer wave of people that founded these digital media companies, like, realized influencer. They recognized influencer culture very early, I guess.

[A]

Like, what is your prescription for how progressives can actually like get this back, like. Or is it a lost cause?

[B]

No, I don't think it's a lost cause.

[A]

Should they start saying the N word also? No, because that's how the right. The right might be winning.

[B]

It's like this girl on TikTok.

[A]

I don't think that. No, you shouldn't.

[B]

Obviously not. There's this girl on TikTok that's like, the Democrats need to be bullies. And she came and she got canceled recently because she was like. And by the. I was popular in high school and it's not true that the popular people and everyone was just like, why? You're like 34. Like, why are you talking about, you

[A]

know, all this stuff? Yeah, you're gonna die earlier.

[B]

I probably will.

[A]

I think you are.

[B]

I mean, my immune system is like non. Existent.

[A]

No, it's not even cause of that. You're gonna die because you're. Cause this is cause stress. No stress.

[B]

Stress.

[A]

I mean, stress is a killer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cigs are healthier than stress.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think.

[B]

I'm pretty sure I live in la. I have a good life. Like, I don't. It's. It's not. I don't take it.

[A]

Those people are so stupid over there.

[B]

I like LA because it. It's.

[A]

Let's do LA versus New York. Let's go. No, I'm just kidding.

[B]

I like. What I like about LA is like, it's just a little removed from the whole, I don't know, media, DC, NY shit.

[A]

It's true. They don't have any media in la.

[B]

It's just they never made any movies.

[A]

Are you gonna make a movie about what the most harassed woman every time

[B]

they want to do? I don't know what you're gonna do for the intro of this. Anytime someone does like a. Like an interview with me or whatever, it's like they have to do the. The super cut in the beginning of like, Taylor Lorenz. Taylor Lorenz. And it's just like, do you ever

[A]

want to be the least harassed woman?

[B]

I don't think. I don't take. I don't care. Like, I don't if people want to yell online. It's not affecting me. And this is what pissed me off so much about that MSNBC thing. Like, I don't care if people say all day how many times I trend on Twitter. It's funny to me, what I care about is people swatting my parents. You know, like, that shit's happening.

[A]

What does that mean?

[B]

When they call in, they hit them no, it's like swat. It's a federal crime, but they call.

[A]

Oh, the SWAT team thing.

[B]

Yeah. And they, like, not.

[A]

That's antisocial.

[B]

Well, that type of shit. They're doing that shit to my family members. They're harassing people that just. Like the person that's just.

[A]

You're playing in the mud with all these people.

[B]

Totally. But I'm saying, like, that's.

[A]

Do you feel bad? A little bit. Cause it's like you're engaging with the crappiest of the crap.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you say, sorry, you're like, mom, my bad.

[B]

I don't. Well, my parents thankfully, like, don't. They're like.

[A]

They didn't realize the SWAT team was there.

[B]

Well, it's happened a few times, but. But, yeah.

[A]

So you've destroyed your family. You're dying. You now have a debilitating disease.

[B]

My family's dying.

[A]

You're also gonna. You're. You're engaging with the scoundrels. You're disrespecting Piers Morgan, some of the. Some of the finest people in our society. And Piers, if you'd ever. If you want, like, I'm here. Here you go again, Piers.

[B]

Did you see they let me on handed you recently?

[A]

How was that?

[B]

I was. I want them. They gotta put me back. He kept asking me, what's it like doing that?

[A]

It must be so fun.

[B]

I thought it was. Can you tell them to let me 100%? The producer has not responded to me since. I was like, let me know anytime. Cause they talk about me all the time on Fox News. And I'm like, put me on if you're gonna talk about me. Like, let me say my part the whole time. Hannity is just being like, you know, don't you think Brian Thompson had a soul? And, I don't know, just weird shit like that.

[A]

Oh, yeah, you got in trouble for saying you felt happy that Luigi killed that guy.

[B]

No, I said.

[A]

I said you were like, I love that shit.

[B]

I said I felt joy that people were finally acknowledging the systemic violence of our healthcare system.

[A]

You felt joy in that?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Which.

[A]

And he was, like, shocking.

[B]

He was like, how could you use that word?

[A]

I haven't the fuckiest. What are you saying?

[B]

He's at the fucking nhs. He doesn't even know how bad we have it.

[A]

I love peers, dude. Yeah, he's the man, dude.

[B]

I still read the Daily Mail, like, top to bottom every day.

[A]

Oh, he was the Daily Mail.

[B]

He was on Daily Mail? Yeah. He had, like, a column. He was really Good friends with the old editor.

[A]

What would it. If you wrote an article about someone and they killed themselves, would you feel bad?

[B]

Of course, yeah. I mean, if my article was like, relevant to. If they killed themselves unrelatedly. But yeah, I mean, if I wrote something that ultimately led them to spiral, I would feel bad.

[A]

This is like. I think this is perhaps one of my greatest challenges because you're. You're. You're perhaps the most media trained guest I've ever had. Because you're me. The media.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. But I do think it's weird to be on the other side of things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's hard to interview.

[A]

How the fuck do you. Welcome to the Thunderdome.

[B]

I had to go to a zoom improv class once. I like tv.

[A]

That made me nauseous just now.

[B]

It was so bad, Adam. It was so bad.

[A]

During COVID You did UCB improv, dude.

[B]

I don't know if it was ucba. I didn't get this, like, TV contributor gig that I was up for. And the feedback was like, you're not good enough. Like on your feet. And so.

[A]

Oh. To be like, with a microphone.

[B]

Yeah, I was gonna do. It was like this like, TV hosting thing. Cool. Mario Lopez style, which I've done tons of Internet stuff like that. This was for broadcast anyway. And that was a feedback. And so they were like, oh, you should do like an improv class. This was like April 2020. So I googled, like, improv. Yeah, I did a zoom improv and two of the people in the zoom improv were in the same room.

[A]

That's one of the most loser sentences.

[B]

It was terrible. Well, that was my. That was like, I'm done with this shit. I did one class and I never went back.

[A]

Don't be saying that in front of Tucker because he's gonna kill your ass on that. She did zoom improv. What? I guess I have one last question. What would you identify as, like, your project? Like what? Like what? Like, obviously you have an ambition, career wise.

[B]

There's a few things I think I want to help people understand the Internet. I want people to recognize the dynamics of our Internet. Sort of help educate people about the attention economy and take it seriously. I mean, I think. I do think I've done a lot to help people understand the media landscape differently than maybe they have now. More recently, now that people sort of seem. I feel like I've accomplished a lot of that. Like, I don't feel. I used to feel like if I don't write this story, like, no one will cover it like no one else covers this industry. Like there's not that many reporters. Like I have to do it now. I feel like there's people covering that now. I'm very focused on speech. Free speech and protecting free speech online.

[A]

And babies watching porn and stuff.

[B]

No, I mean just like civil liberties. Like I, I think like I said before, liberals and leftists have abandoned so much of that and pushed this like bullshit moral panic. Stuff that's not based in reality and not based in any sort of science or anything. And so I care.

[A]

I remember like government class when you learned about Skokie, Illinois.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I always thought it was like so cool that there were like lawyers, a lot of them were Jewish at the ACLU that were defending Nazis.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like their right to like march through a community which I understand had a lot of holocaust survivors but having like a principle like free speech being paramount. But now that would to me sounded like. So that's really dope that like it's more important we protect this.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And even by standing up for the Nazis. So I kind of, I understand that as a progressive principle for sure.

[B]

But most progressives today, I would argue don't. Like I think a lot of people on the left today would argue for deplatforming, would argue for censorship. They're arguing for these age verification laws, these really dangerous Internet bills that do want to strip speech rights.

[A]

But these are corporations with profit incentives, Right?

[B]

Exactly. And we should crisis instead of punishing the users, which is what these speech laws do. They're not punishing the companies. There's a reason why Apple and X are backing a lot of these, like, you know, backing like age verification and things like the Take It down act or whatever. Because it punishes the users, it punishes speech online. It doesn't actually fundamentally affect the business model. These profit driven companies, they have no incentive to protect free speech. If they get this law passed in Texas that they have, it's hb. I can't remember the name. I made a video about it recently. But you know, they want to censor all speech about abortion online. Criminalize it essentially. And that we don't have state by state Internet laws that will result in that sort of content getting censored across the country. And Facebook doesn't care. They're like, okay, if the government says that, sure, we'll censor it. We don't care. We're in the profit driven business.

[A]

Yeah. Because you got muscles now in a chain.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And he's like, now free speech.

[B]

He doesn't care. None of them actually care about speech. But I don't think many people do care about protecting free speech outside of maybe FIRE and the Electronic Frontier foundation and like a couple organizations. But like, I'm talking about like activists. Like, they don't care. They're saying this bullshit about like, we gotta ban cell phones or whatever. Like, it's just, it's like I really care about speech online and if I had to sort of think about like, I feel like if I have to pick an issue that I want people to understand, it's that one.

[A]

Yeah. I just, I worry, I don't know,

[B]

I don't know too much speech.

[A]

I just worry that people like just aren't. People are being like freak, freakazoids. People are being fucking weird. And I think that like, I mean, I think it is bizarre to be like for $0 yelling at the government or like the president all day. Right? I think that's. Yeah, I think it's like, I can't understand, but I think that everyone kind of like views things as like personal branding now and like, but like, I like it when things are normal and it's, it's too weird.

[B]

You're in the wrong decade. I think, like, I think a lot of the problems that people ascribe to the Internet are broader problems with like capitalism. And I think we could have a less profit driven Internet and that would be a better Internet.

[A]

How the fuck are you gonna do that?

[B]

We have, we have, I mean we have systems like that. We, we did things broker companies. No, but we, we have, right now we have a duopoly. I think it's interesting by the way, that there's all this like antitrust conversation. I think that should have happened 10 years ago.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think the fact that so much of the Internet now is defined by like a very small amount of major social platforms that have like a complete dominance of the market and can act arbitrarily to, you know, like, I think that's bad. I think we should have more competition. I think we should have more private spaces. I think users deserve more control online over their online experience. These are all things we can advocate for that would make the Internet a lot less like the way that you hate. You know, it makes all of us miserable, right? Like it fucking makes all of us miserable. Like, but the answer is not to like eliminate the Internet and censor speech. The answer is to regulate these companies in a smart and coherent way that actually targets the companies themselves.

[A]

And maybe also the answer is like, if someone has a job. They can't be doing that all day long. Right.

[B]

I feel like more jobs like require. Require you to engage with the Internet

[A]

though maybe it's just like not enough jobs so people are just like, I'm gonna be on the computer like too many email jobs. I'm gonna be filming people like not wearing, you know, wearing someone telling me to put a mask on cvs. And then I'm gonna be in Congress in two years time.

[B]

Yeah, that. I mean that. But I think that that's the broader issue with like our attention economy and all. Yeah. I also don't think we would have a lot of these problems if we had a coherent. Like so many of our problems are. I think if we had an actual populist movement, if we had a movement for that was driven around class solidarity and workers rights and things like. I just think a lot of these problems that are sort of systemic problems that, that we view through the Internet would not manifest in the same way. But we don't have that. We have the Democratic Party instead.

[A]

They're fire.

[B]

They're not doing anything. You're trying to get that DNC money.

[A]

How do you get it? You know them.

[B]

I mean, how do you get it? You gotta, you know, Taylor runs everyone.

[A]

It's sam.