JON FAVREAU Talks Obama, Bin Laden, ICE

Summary

The Adam Friedland Show
Episode: JON FAVREAU Talks Obama, Bin Laden, ICE
Date: January 22, 2026

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Episode Overview

This lively and irreverent episode of The Adam Friedland Show features a wide-ranging discussion with Jon Favreau, former chief speechwriter for President Barack Obama and co-host of Pod Save America. The conversation combines sharp humor with genuine political insight, tracing Favreau's journey through American electoral history, life inside the Obama administration, and reflections on the current state of politics and media. The episode is equal parts roast, oral history, and trenchant analysis, blending Adam’s signature sardonic tone with Favreau’s candid behind-the-scenes stories.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Bin Laden Raid & Situation Room Omissions

• Favreau’s Exclusion:
  • Favreau reveals he wasn’t read into the Bin Laden operation and only found out after receiving Obama’s draft remarks.
  • Lighthearted teasing by Adam:
    • "What a loser." – Adam (00:13, 58:07)
    • Favreau explains he wasn’t the foreign policy speechwriter.
• Humor and Hierarchies:
  • Adam jokes about being outside the Situation Room eavesdropping. (58:13)
  • "Were you outside, like, trying to listen in?" – Adam (58:13)
  • "Loser. No." – Favreau (58:08, 58:24)
  • The Sick Hillary Clinton and Obama dynamic, riffing on who was really in charge. (58:30)

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2. The "Other" Jon Favreau & Stage Names

• Name Confusion with Filmmaker Jon Favreau:
  • Favreau recounts being mistaken for the actor/director.
  • "Did you work on Iron Man 2?" story (05:25)
  • "No, that wasn't me. It's the other Jon Favreau." – Favreau (05:48)
• Wider Stage Name Talk:
  • Amusing side-discussion on names like Austin Powers, Borat, Shrek, and JD Vance. (07:29-08:28)
  • "You can't have a president change the name three times." – Adam (08:20)
• Political Book Pretensions:
  • Favreau jokes about pretending to read 'Hillbilly Elegy' for political cred. (08:43-08:55)

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3. Biography & Speechwriting Origins

• College Days & First White House Jobs:
  • Adam shares a comedic "rejected" Obama speech, satirizing the "good boyfriend" meme. (03:12-04:13)
  • Favreau’s route: Valedictorian, Kerry campaign, youngest in the room (17:08+)
• Obama’s 2004 DNC Keynote & Speech Editing:
  • Favreau tells the pivotal story of being sent to remove a line Kerry wanted from Obama’s DNC speech. (17:47-20:02)
    • "He had never read off a prompter before." – Favreau (18:37)
    • "He was so mad." – Favreau, on Obama’s first reactions (19:24)
  • Memorable quote:
    • "That was the last time I would see Obama again." – Favreau (20:16)
  • Their paths cross again after Obama’s Senate win:
    • “I don’t think I need a speechwriter...but Gibbs tells me I do. And you seem nice enough, so let’s give this a whirl.” – Obama, per Favreau (21:12-21:27)

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4. Speechwriting Philosophy, Stealing, and the ‘Obama Style’

• Theft in Speechwriting:
  • Discussion on how political speechwriting is “stealing liberally”—from Cesar Chavez’s “Yes We Can” to Lincoln references. (24:22–25:19)
  • "No, you just steal liberally." – Favreau (24:40)
• Learning Obama’s Voice:
  • Favreau immersed himself in Obama’s writings and habits to internalize his voice. (26:05–26:41)
  • "I became like I was in his head at that point." – Favreau (25:42–26:05)
• Classic Bits:
  • Obama’s “funny name and big ears” lines came from Obama himself. (30:23)

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5. Inside the Campaign & White House

• Work Culture & Hierarchy:
  • Discussion of being young and running teams, occasional Harvard Lampoon guys, comics in politics (14:15–15:12)
  • The “funny guy” among Obama speechwriters: John Lovett. (15:05)
• Obama’s Management Style:
  • Collaborative: Would sit down and chat for hours about speech content, life, and politics. (26:24-26:41)
  • “He would cheer us up.” – Favreau on Obama’s demeanor post-setbacks (55:58)
• Dealing with Criticism:
  • On the weight of negative press, Obama tells Favreau:
    • “I wake up every day knowing that half the country hates me ... My job is not to sit here and be upset all the time ... My job is to do everything I can do to help the country and make people’s lives better.” (56:41)

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6. Moments of Historic Significance

• Obama’s 2008 Victory Speech:
  • Favreau shares the process of crafting the now-famous “Ann Nixon Cooper” closing, and the emotional phone call with her as the win was announced. (34:33–36:27)
  • "She was 102 years old ... I called her up ... And she goes, 'Will it be on television?'" – Favreau (35:02)
• The Disappointments and Realism of Governance:
  • Financial crisis fallout, why no bankers were jailed, Dodd-Frank, housing regrets, political constraints. (39:10–42:10)
  • "It was just like unsatisfying decision after unsatisfying decision..." – Favreau (41:26)
• Gay Marriage & Regret:
  • Obama’s delay in supporting gay marriage, balancing personal and political realities. (43:09–43:39)

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7. Political & Party Analysis

• Resentment & Party Hierarchy:
  • Tension from "skipping the line" (Obama was a relative newcomer). (51:24)
• Biden, Vice Presidency, and Running for President:
  • Humorous take on the “loser” nature of VP and Biden’s repeated runs. (52:24–53:55)
• The Role of Incremental Change:
  • Favreau discusses how transformative laws like the ACA are never perfect, but are built upon:
    • “That’s politics, that’s the way the fucking system of government is set up.” (74:29–74:48)

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8. ICE, Immigration Policy, and Moral Responsibility

• ICE Expansion Under Obama:
  • Favreau explains increased deportations in Obama’s first two years, later efforts to constrain ICE, and the limits without congressional reform. (75:35–77:14)
• Moral Obligation & Political Calculus:
  • Powerfully addresses how parties can’t neglect the human toll:
    • "You can show me the poll ... but you can't tell me that if someone hears the story of the pregnant woman snatched ... that's not going to get them angry." – Favreau (79:47)

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9. Media, Hope, and the Future

• Why Crooked Media Exists:
  • Favreau articulates the founding thesis: rebuilding political engagement by connecting news, organizing, and action. (65:16-66:00)
• The Democratic Coalition and the Working Class:
  • Dangers of over-focusing on college-educated voters; the need to win back more diverse working class support. (73:20–74:48)
• Lamenting Disappointment and Hope:
  • “It’s the hope that kills you.” – Adam, on political cycles (70:13)
  • The difference between hope and optimism: Hope as a verb vs. optimism as a prediction. (70:17)
• Post-Trump, Post-Obama Political Rhetoric:
  • Favreau calls for leaders who think big, inspire morally and spiritually, and are not just box-checking poll-tested policies. (80:15–82:53)
  • "You’ve got to have that like set of values ... and that story has to be told over and over again...without fear." – Favreau (82:52)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "You were a fucking loser, dude." – Adam, recurring joke about missed major historic moments (00:29, 58:08)
• "I was backstage... They both can’t use the same line. You have to get the line out of Obama’s speech." – Favreau, on a DNC keynote (17:47)
• "No, you just steal liberally." – Favreau, on speechwriting (24:40)
• "I became like I was in his head at that point." – Favreau, on mastering Obama’s voice (25:42)
• "If we can't get background checks at this moment with these people, like, what are we doing?" – Favreau, Sandy Hook aftermath (55:52)
• "It was just like unsatisfying decision after unsatisfying decision..." – Favreau, on the financial crisis (41:26)
• "You have to pass the Civil Rights Act. But even think, like, I mean, like, think of what it took to get so..." – Favreau, on the stakes of moral political leadership (81:39)
• "It’s the hope that kills you." – Adam, on the emotional toll of political activism and cycles (70:13)
• "He’s boss for life, you know?" – Favreau, on loyalty to Obama (85:14)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Show begins, Bin Laden topic: 00:01–00:37
• Adam’s comedic Obama speech: 03:12–04:13
• Favreau recounts 2004 DNC Obama keynote story: 17:47–20:10
• ‘Yes We Can’ origins and stealing in speechwriting: 24:22–25:19
• Crafting Obama’s victory speech and talking to Ann Nixon Cooper: 34:33–36:27
• Obama’s philosophy on criticism and political resilience: 56:41–57:32
• Immigration, ICE, and moral urgency: 75:35–79:47
• Future of the Democratic coalition, party priorities: 73:20–74:48
• Larger lessons from history and hope: 80:15–82:53

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Tone and Style

The episode is sharp, fast-paced, and playful, leaning into Adam’s biting comedic persona. Banter regularly veers into affectionate mockery, dark humor, and off-kilter tangents, but always circles back to substance. Favreau matches the energy, openly sharing White House anecdotes, campaign war stories, and a frank, sometimes self-deprecating look at the limits and realities of political power, including moments when he confronted the moral weight of government action—or inaction.

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Final Thoughts

This is an episode for political junkies, fans of behind-the-scenes stories, and anyone curious about the personalities and processes that shaped a pivotal era in American politics. It’s loaded with laughs, candor, and insight—plus some pointed advice for the next generation of political leaders and writers.

Transcript

[A]

Were you in the Situation Room? That was his. That was the moment where he got love from everyone.

[B]

Oh, with the bin Laden operation.

[A]

You were in the Situation Room.

[B]

I was not read into that.

[A]

What a loser.

[B]

Loser. No.

[A]

What a loser. Were you outside, like, trying to listen in?

[B]

No, because I didn't know what happened until. I didn't know what happened until I got the draft remarks of what he was gonna say. They didn't tell you from Ben.

[A]

Oh, you were a fucking loser, dude.

[B]

Loser. Well, I didn't do any of the. I wasn't the foreign policy, national security speechwriter guy.

[A]

That sucks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can you imagine how sick it was? Hillary Clinton saying, this is my playing. I'm calling all the shots here. Shut up, OB. Hello and welcome back to the Adam Friedland Show. It's Adam Friedland, guys. First off, going back on the road this weekend, they added a sixth show, Seattle, Washington. It's at what's it called? Emerald City Comedy Club. Thursday night. There's one extra show. Everything else is sold out. Also, folks, I'll be in Philadelphia, Pennsylvan next month at Helium Comedy Club. Get tickets while you still can. They're gonna sell out quick. And in May, I'll be in Los Angeles, California, for the Netflix is a joke fest at the Regent Theater. Presale begins tomorrow or today, if you're watching on the general feed. Right. Tomorrow at noon. Tomorrow, today at noon. Pre sale. I went with the speed this comes out to today, say the date, maybe the 21st. Presale begins at the 21st of tomorrow to 21st of January, the month, right now at noon. So that was probably earlier today. And the code is Adam. Pacific time, Pacific time. Noon Pacific Time. 3. The code is 3pm the code, Adam. Pacific time. The code is Adam. It's noon Pacific time. And it was already today at noon Pacific time. Also, I'd like to thank our members here on YouTube.com you guys support the show. And if you'd like to support us, you can select join at the top of your page. And if you join at the second or third tiers, you can get your name in the credits of this fine program. There's also a link in the description of the video below. And there's also a link to a Patreon, if you prefer to use Patreon. Finally, there's merch available. AdamFreedland Show. Guys, I'm not only all about money, okay? My guest this week is American political podcaster and speechwriter Jon Favreau. Favreau is known, of course, as the host of the political podcast Pod Save America, I never missed an episode. And he was previously employed as the senior speechwriter for Barack Obama, the Obama administration, the White House. What the hell have we done with our lives, huh? Funnily enough, this is not the first time our paths have crossed. What are you gonna say? No? Come on.

[B]

What?

[A]

Rita. Rita. Funnily enough, this is not the first time our paths have crossed. In 2013, an 18 year old Adam Friedland dropped off a packet of speeches in at the front desk of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. The reception. I was getting my start writing speeches for the president of the United States seemed like a pretty good first job. Now, of course, I was not hired, but I'd like to share a snippet from one of my. From one of the speeches that I handed over that day to imagine what life may be like had today's guest taken chance on me. Hello, I'm President. Hello. Hello. Let me. Hello, I'm President Barack Obama and I'm here to talk to you today about a seriously bad problem that's destroying the core of this nation and eating away what makes us great. America is suffering from an epidemic, an epidemic of girls who are cheating on good boyfriends. Good guys who like movies and books more than go to the club. Guys who want to stay in and be romantic instead of wearing revealing clothing. Instead of wearing revealing clothing. Guys who think makeup is the same as lying and prefer a natural look. Guys who hate condoms because the feeling of them is weird. Good guy. These are good men. Honest men who got good grades and know about music and girls need to stop cheating on them and immediately. This is a presidential order. Thanks. And can I just say, being the president is the best job I've ever had. Please enjoy my interview with Jon Favreau, everyone. Give it up for him. That was one of the best ones. Ladies and gentlemen, host upon Save America, former head speechwriter for the Obama White House, Jon Favreau, everyone. God damn it, guys. Joji, you can't pull focus and clap. How's it going?

[B]

Pretty good.

[A]

How's it you have the same name as that guy? That's gotta suck.

[B]

Know what?

[A]

Are you boys with him?

[B]

It's been. Yeah, I'm not boys with him, but I know him.

[A]

You gotta know him.

[B]

I had been in the White House for two years and one of our staff, one of my colleagues came up to me was like, hey, I noticed at the end of Iron Man 2, like, did you work on that movie? And I was like, did I work on that Movie. I'm like, you have been with me every day, every hour for the last two years. You think I had time to work on Iron Man 2? I'm like, no, that wasn't me. It's the other Jon Favreau.

[A]

You're making Obama look bad.

[B]

Well, it wasn't him.

[A]

I'm not saying. It was Barack Obama. Of course Barack Obama.

[B]

It's not Barack Obama. He knew who I was.

[A]

But why would he hire that person? Shouldn't be allowed to drive. They were.

[B]

Why would they, you know.

[A]

Well, actually, I had to change my name because there was a guy in show business. Yeah. Already with my name.

[B]

Now you're the most famous.

[A]

Yeah. There couldn't be a second Malcolm X. You know,

[B]

I first noticed it when he was in Rudy. Malcolm X. No, Malcolm X was in Rudy.

[A]

No, it was a red.

[B]

No, Jon Favreau was in Rudy.

[A]

Oh, John Favreau.

[B]

And I remember seeing the credits, and I was like. I was a kid. Yeah.

[A]

And you're like, what the fuck is going on?

[B]

That guy.

[A]

What the f. No, but I mean, you were in the White House, and you're still number two. You think? Were you number one?

[B]

I mean, deep down in here, he's done a lot of great stuff. Yeah, but big stuff.

[A]

If you run.

[B]

It wasn't just. He was like an actor. Now he's like a big director.

[A]

If you run for president, you could be the number one. Favreau. You think if you win president, that's

[B]

what I'd have to do. Yeah, that's right. I have to do.

[A]

Trudeau was the prime minister and he was the number two Justin in Canada. How pathetic is that?

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Yeah. Bieber. He's still. Bieber's bigger still.

[B]

Yeah. And now he's with Katy Perry. So it's all Trudeau. Yeah.

[A]

What? I miss everything he is.

[B]

That's what I've seen.

[A]

Yeah. Do you ever feel like a plastic bag? Do you remember where you were the first time you heard. Yeah. My friend, actually, he went to college with a guy named Austin Powers.

[B]

How that's tough.

[A]

How brutal is that?

[B]

That's really.

[A]

Can you imagine? The first movie comes out, he's like, okay, it's six months of this yeah, baby, yeah stuff. He goes to the bank and people are like, do I make you horny?

[B]

His life has been hell for the rest of his life.

[A]

There's a second one. He's like, oh, there's a sequel. He's like, well, sequels are always bad. He's like, this is the end of this nightmare. His name is Borat. Can you imagine being named Austin Powers? Boy, oh, my God. It would drive me insane. Yeah, if you're. Yeah, My name was Shrek. Doesn't JD Vance have his stage name?

[B]

Isn't JD Vance the stage name?

[A]

It's. I mean, that. Yeah. Is the stage name, right?

[B]

Well, he's changed his name three times. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't even know what the original.

[A]

You can't have a president change the name three times.

[B]

Who knows anymore?

[A]

Or was he a wife guy? Was he like, I'm taking her name?

[B]

No, it was not that.

[A]

No, he wasn't doing that.

[B]

He's definitely not a wife guy.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Cause we couldn't vote for that either. Yeah.

[B]

I feel like if I read Hillbilly Elegy, I would know what the name was. But that's only a book that I pretended to have read.

[A]

What was his last name? Knievel. You pretended to read Hillbilly Elegy?

[B]

I pretended. It was like, you buy it? And I'm like. I'm like, I meant to read it to get chicks. Where you say to get chicks. It looks like you're in politics. I'm like, everyone's talking about this book. I should probably read this book. And you, like, read the first chapter, and then you lose time.

[A]

It was every lib parent. They were like, actually, this is why we lost. And now this guy.

[B]

Now we're gonna figure it out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we did.

[A]

Peter to little. Very slim, very smart. Yeah. Okay, J.D. vance, come on the show. But you can never be the president. If you change, go back to your original name. Just David Hitler. We'll cut that. He's a friend. Okay, so wait. I looked at. I've been studying you. I know everything now. You had hot parents.

[B]

I still do. They're still. They're still very much alive.

[A]

They still look good.

[B]

Yeah, they're still hot.

[A]

They're still a hot parent kid is a thing.

[B]

Hot parent kid. Is it? Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. They stayed together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, then that's good. They weren't, like, too hot to be married.

[B]

No, they're just hot enough to be together, and they live out in California with me now.

[A]

Your dad's kind of big guy.

[B]

Big guy. Jack big guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Did it make you want to be stronger than him?

[B]

No, not really.

[A]

Do you think you beat your dad up now?

[B]

No, for sure.

[A]

Still, your dad could beat you up.

[B]

He's six two. So you're making a bobble.

[A]

You're making a bobble.

[B]

Like that.

[A]

You can't hide.

[B]

I don't want to beat up my dad.

[A]

So he had a mamby pamby son.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

But he was never disappointed, which was nice.

[A]

Yeah. But deep down.

[B]

Deep down.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

My dad.

[A]

My dad knows how to fix a car.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I think mine does.

[A]

Do we don't.

[B]

I don't know how to fix.

[A]

No, we know how to write speeches. Phenomenal speech.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So he's like, my. My boy's a speech boy.

[B]

My boys. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

He's like, he wanted you to play football. And you're like, I got it right.

[B]

Never even pushed me for that.

[A]

Did you grow up watching game tape of speeches?

[B]

No, no, no. I didn't grow up in a. Like, my parents like to talk politics. They weren't. I wouldn't say they were political, but they like to talk politics. And I remember. I do remember, like, watching the 92 presidential debates with my dad. That was, like, my. One of my earliest political memories.

[A]

Yeah. I remember my parents being so excited because he was a boomer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the song was Fleetwood Mac.

[B]

Yeah. That was a big.

[A]

They're like, it's one of us.

[B]

And I remember, actually, I remember the 88 campaign because Mike Dukakis, Democratic nominee, and my mother's Greek and her maiden name is demarcus, and he was from Lowell, and my mother's from, like, the town, like, Woburn, which is right near Lowell in Massachusetts. And so, like, the fact that he was running for president was, like, the biggest deal ever.

[A]

Really? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Why would the Democrats run a Greek?

[B]

What are they going to run, Massachusetts?

[A]

They're gonna run Stav next. What are they doing? Wait. Yeah. It's so funny that a picture of a helmet. I mean, he really did look like a bitch ass in that picture.

[B]

Yeah, but that short, too.

[A]

That's the kind of thing that could sway an election. It feels like nowadays, like, we forgot Trump got shot two days later. Like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then Joe Biden dropped out two days later.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Those are the good news.

[B]

Those are crazy summer. Yeah.

[A]

It sucks that Biden did, like, his first funny thing before he dropped out, which was he's like. When he's like. He was with Zelensky and he was like, ladies and gentlemen, President Putin. It was like he was like, doing the music guest on snl. Ladies and gentlemen, President Putin.

[B]

I remember that press conference. That was a rough one.

[A]

Who is forcing him to do that? The wife?

[B]

No, him.

[A]

No, it was the wife.

[B]

I think she was encouraging.

[A]

Jill was like, go out there.

[B]

I think they were like, you do you like, we're gonna be with you no matter what you want to do? And it was like, you want. You want some people when you're president, United States around you who will tell you difficult things that you don't want to hear?

[A]

I thought you were gonna say, laugh at all your jokes. Did Obama ever tell just a shit joke, and if you fake laughed, you definitely.

[B]

Probably.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. It's the president.

[B]

Yeah, I would definitely. I am an easy laugh anyway. But, yeah, I'm sure I fake laughed at some of his.

[A]

And you're like, come on, Mr. President, that's not good. That's. That's sexist. You can't say that about women. I shouldn't have shown you Entourage. Do you remember? He's your boss. He said that his favorite show was Entourage.

[B]

Did he say that?

[A]

Yeah. So sick. So sick. That's so us. That's so us. That's so us, dude. I mean, you were 28 years old in the West Wing of the White House. You watched the show before I did,

[B]

so I was in college. Yes. I watched it then.

[A]

So what's your. You think you're Sam.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you want to be Josh.

[B]

Do I?

[A]

Anti Semite. He's the anti Semite.

[B]

That's what it is.

[A]

You want to. You want to be Toby, the coolest guy on the show. Was there a Toby in the squad with you guys?

[B]

Toby was communications director.

[A]

Yeah, but he was a little dark.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. All the characters were just amalgam of people in the White House. So it's like Toby was like David Axelrod, little Toby, you know, but also like the communications director. I guess Pfeiffer could have been a little tough.

[A]

So you were like a Donna?

[B]

You're saying I was a Donna?

[A]

You were a Donna.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Did you have. You were the boss of people older than you at 28?

[B]

Let's see. Yeah, yeah. Couple. We were pretty young, though, as a group. Speechwriters, really. Yeah. So I think most of them were my age or younger, but, like, Ben Rhodes is a couple years older than me. No one's too older. Too much older than me.

[A]

Was there any Harvard Lampoon guys?

[B]

No, we didn't have any Harvard Lampoon guys.

[A]

That's actually a serious question that I said as a joke, but they're everywhere. But it seems plausible. Yeah, they're everywhere.

[B]

Yeah. You always run into a fucking Harvard Lampoon guy somewhere.

[A]

Yeah. Do comics get hired as speechwriters?

[B]

I mean, John Lovett, he was. I guess he was. He did a little comedy.

[A]

Jon Lovitz.

[B]

John Lovitz, my co. Founder. Co host.

[A]

You guys bonded over having another guy with your names?

[B]

No. Cause I didn't really, like. I don't know. It took us a while to put together the John Lovett, Jon Lovitz thing. Because he didn't. Because it's not like my name where it's spelled the exact same.

[A]

Like, what are you guys, stupid? It's right there. John Love. Haven't you seen Rat Race?

[B]

I have seen Rat Race.

[A]

Were you doing your homework?

[B]

Yeah, but. Yeah, no. So, yeah, Lovett does comedy. He was our funny guy. He was our resident funny speechwriter.

[A]

That's insulting, actually. You guys had real jobs and now you're podcasting and doing comedy.

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

It's. Come on.

[B]

It's pretty.

[A]

When I see NBA players, NBA players doing podcasts, I'm like, I'm doing this because I'm not in the NBA. Just please, you don't want no part of this. This is a hell.

[B]

It's a lot easier than working in the White House. What I do now.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You're lazy and rich just gets to talk about politics.

[A]

You went to Holy Cross. You and Bill Simmons, roommates. Okay. You were in a love triangle with Simmons.

[B]

Yeah. And Clarence Thomas.

[A]

Yeah. Do you think Simmons was power ranking girls at college?

[B]

You'll have to ask him. Zuckerberg was, I think.

[A]

Yeah, that's the. Yeah, that was the move.

[B]

That's how the whole thing started.

[A]

Yeah. He was doing power rankings. Yeah. I wonder if Zuck and Simmons ever had.

[B]

It's like, hot or not. And then, like, 15 years later, genocide.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Going back to, like, comics writing for politicians. You know how, like, when our government lets BB just do open mic night to be mean to the president? We just let him go to the government to give a speech and be like, obama's a.

[B]

Because the Republicans invited him. Obama didn't even invite him.

[A]

Yeah, but you're the president. You gotta be like, I'll kill you if you.

[B]

He could have tried that.

[A]

He had a line where I'm like, it's gotta be. It's Jerry. Jerry's in the writers room for sure. When he was like, they say gays for Gaza. What about. That's like saying chickens for kfc. That's gotta be a Jerry. That has to be a Jerry. Do you know, can you confirm or deny that Jerry Seinfeld's writing for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

[B]

I can do neither.

[A]

Can you call Jerry Seinfeld and ask him?

[B]

I don't know Jerry Seinfeld.

[A]

You know Jerry Seinfeld?

[B]

No.

[A]

You know Jerry Seinfeld. You're a college valedictorian. Right. And then you go into the Kerry campaign shortly thereafter. Okay, you're a speechwriter. You're probably the youngest person in the room a lot of the time, but you were, like, kind of a fly on the wall for history. So, like, what was it like? Like, that arrival of Barack Obama, like.

[B]

Yeah, so I was at the DNC in Boston, and I was a junior speechwriter at that point in the Kerry campaign. I was backstage, and all the speakers would, like, send their speeches to the Kerry campaign team, and so I was supposed to, like, make sure that all the speeches were on message. For the Kerry campaign?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then my boss, the head speechwriter at the time, now Congressman Josh, gottheimer from New Jersey. He called me. He was on the road with Kerry, and he was like, hey, there is a. There's a line in Barack Obama's speech who's giving the keynote that John Kerry wants to use in his speech. I was like, all right. And he's like, well, they both can't use the same line.

[A]

He stole his bit.

[B]

So he was like. I'm like, what are you talking. What are you telling me for? He's like, you have to get the line out of Obama's speech. I was like, what? So I have to go down the hall to where Obama's practicing the speech for the first time on teleprompter.

[A]

Wait. Go into the practice. I wanted. How did he do that?

[B]

He. How did he.

[A]

How's Barack Obama? Like, I'm about to kill it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like what?

[B]

Well, he had never. Does he.

[A]

In a mirror.

[B]

He had never read off a prompter before, so he had to learn to use a teleprompter because he had never, like, given a prepared speech. He was like a state senator, you

[A]

know, so he was an idiot, too.

[B]

He was an idiot.

[A]

So that entire White House. 80.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. For sure. And so he's practicing, and I have to go in. I'm like, 21 at the time. 22 and hot.

[A]

You were a piece of. Piece of.

[B]

So hot. I was so hot.

[A]

I've been looking at pigs, shaved head,

[B]

like, 10 pounds heavier, buzz cut, kind of yoked.

[A]

Trying to beat your dad up. Trying to beat my dad up this summer break.

[B]

I'm just like, When I'm not on the campaign. I'm just trying to get Jack to beat my dad up. So then I. So I tell him about the line, and he's so mad.

[A]

Oh, bomb.

[B]

Yeah, he, like, came up to, like. He's, like, this close to me, and he's, like, looking down. And I think I, like, blacked out for a few seconds. But at that point, this very nice man, David Axelrod, comes up to me, and he was like, hey, son, let's walk outside and we'll rewrite the line together. And so we Axe and I. That's my first introduction to him. We go outside, we rewrite the line,

[A]

and do you remember the line?

[B]

Yeah. It's the end of the red state, blue state riff where he says, like, there are no red states. There are no states.

[A]

He stole red state, blue state.

[B]

He wanted to say, there are the United States. All of us pledging allegiance to the red, white, and blue.

[A]

Oh, nice.

[B]

And Kerry wanted red, white, and blue. And so instead, Obama changed it to, like, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes. I think we did.

[A]

So anyway, to the green and yellow of Hezbollah.

[B]

What did he say?

[A]

Hezbollah. Green and yellow.

[B]

That was the alt. And I figured, like, that was. That was it. That was the last time that I would see Obama again. But then when Kerry lost and Obama won the Senate, Robert Gibbs, who was his communications director and had been my boss when I was a press assistant on the Kerry campaign, was like, hey, he needs a speechwriter. Would you be interested. Now that he's in the Senate, would you be interested in just, like, sitting down with him? And I was like, why does he need a speechwriter? He's like, that's what he thinks. He doesn't want a speechwriter either.

[A]

The guy, he was mean to.

[B]

Yeah. He's like.

[A]

He's like, get that from Kerry.

[B]

Well, so he didn't know it was me.

[A]

He didn't remember me.

[B]

So I said, so I sat down with him his first week in the Senate. We have breakfast, and we do the job interview. He's so nice. Great job interview. He was like, where'd you grow up? What's life like? What's. What's your theory of speechwriting? Why do you like.

[A]

What'd you say?

[B]

Theory of speechwriting?

[A]

You had a bullshit.

[B]

I was like, I don't have a theory of speech writing. But I talked about his convention speech in 2004 and why I loved it. And then he was like, all right, well, I don't think I need a speechwriter. But Gibbs Tells me, I do. And you seem nice enough, so let's give this a whirl.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

And then, like a year later, we're sitting around reminiscing about the 2004 convention, and Obama's like, remember that little shit who tried to take from the Kerry campaign or tried to get. And I was like, that was me. He's like, I would have never hired you. And he started laughing. He knew it was you at that point.

[A]

He did. Oh, he was doing a bit.

[B]

No, no, no, no. He found out at that moment, like, a year later.

[A]

Have you told this story before?

[B]

This is great stuff. I can't remember.

[A]

We got to tell Sorkin. We got to get Sorkin off.

[B]

We got to tell Sorkin. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[B]

For the reboot. How mean was he to you when he found out? He was. No, he was laughing. He just couldn't believe.

[A]

Now he loves time.

[B]

He was just like.

[A]

You were like, whatever. Fucking state senator. Well, you're a bitch, dude.

[B]

Yeah. It's like, I'm working for. For the next president, John Kerry.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Here's a serious question, actually, I had floating in my head, and I don't know if you've been asked this before. Did you guys kind of. To what extent was Will Ferrell to blame?

[B]

Why? Because of his George Bush impression?

[A]

Yeah. The funniest guy in the world was playing, like, a war. A war criminal. I mean, I think it's actually, like, there's something I'm not saying. It's the reason John Kerry lost.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, it was because of what he did on the damn Swift Boat.

[B]

On the Swift Boat.

[A]

We all know about that goddamn Swift boat. And that's what Obama put in his speech. He's like, john Kerry. I heard he was on a Swift boat.

[B]

Oh, yeah, that's right.

[A]

Sorry. We did do a campaign. Don't tell him I did an impression.

[B]

I promise I won't. I promise. Bush didn't get really unpopular until 562005. 2006, when Iraq went really south. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

What happened in that? What happened over there?

[B]

Yeah. Nothing good, but we've learned our lesson, so that's important.

[A]

So then you were working in his Senate office.

[B]

Yeah, so then I was working in the Senate office, and part of the reason I took that job is, like, my parents wanted me to go to law school. You know, they're like, all right, you're not making. You didn't make any money on the Kerry campaign, and we not supporting you forever. Like, you go. Go to law.

[A]

Shut the fuck up. He's running for president.

[B]

But I was like, well, I'll go work for Barack Obama in the Senate office, because he just got there. He's obviously not gonna run for president in 2008. And so I'll just do a year there. And then once the 08 campaign starts, I'll go to law school, and I'll be done with politics for a little while.

[A]

So you lied to your parents.

[B]

So I lied to my own.

[A]

That was a good lie.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

This guy's a total lightweight. It was one speech, and then that was that, really.

[B]

And then he decided to run, and then you dropped.

[A]

Yes, We Can. That's you.

[B]

Yes, we can was in the 2004 Senate race is a. It was a tagline in one of his ads. And then I and the other speechwriters brought it back for the New Hampshire speech the night of the New Hampshire primary in the. In 07.

[A]

Oh, so you copied. Yes. Yes, we can.

[B]

Yeah. Just lifted it from.

[A]

Who copied it from the farm laborers?

[B]

Yes, from. From. From Cesar Chavez.

[A]

Is there, like. Like, in comedy, if you steal a bit, it's like, a bad thing? Like, you're like. Is there the concept of that in speech writing?

[B]

No. Yeah. No, you just steal liberally.

[A]

When you. So, like, when you, like, were developing a skill in your. Your job, like, did you watch game tape of people, like, previous speeches?

[B]

I did a little bit of that. I read bold speeches. But I think the key. I think what a lot of politicians do now, which is a mistake, is like, they try to copy, like, the style of a politician in the past who gives a speech, and then it sounds phony because it's like. Like, for a while, you had politicians trying to, like, all copy John F. Kennedy. And now. Now you get that with Obama, right?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So it's like Gavin was trying Obama a little bit there.

[B]

Who?

[A]

Gavin Newsom?

[B]

Yeah, a little bit. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Josh Shapiro sounds a little Barack Obama sometimes. Let me be clear. Yeah, there's a little. It's that generation of politicians.

[A]

Beto was kind of ripping it off.

[B]

Beto's a little bit. And so I did a little bit of that. But mostly I just got to know Obama. Like, he also. He had written by.

[A]

That.

[B]

By the time he ran for president, two books. I helped him edit the second book, Audacity of Hope. So he would, like. He wrote that in the Senate office. And so he would come in in the morning. He had been up till like, 3am the night before writing, partying. He'd give the party, give this long chapter, and then I would like it. So it's like I. I became like I was in his head at that point. Yeah. Like, I knew how he thought. I knew how he. Yeah. So that's.

[A]

So Obama invented that shit.

[B]

Invented what?

[A]

Like the Obama. I mean, that was him.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I thought it was central casting. I thought it was. I thought it was the Illuminati. No, no. So that's. I mean, so then you had to, like, learn the cadence and kind of the rhythm of Obama's speech.

[B]

Yes. And then I would sort of travel with him and make sure that I go to a lot of his speeches. I'd listen to all of his interviews. I would just. Just. And then I would just spend time with him. Like, every time we were about to give a speech, I would just sit down and say, like, what do you want to say? And we would, like, chat for an hour.

[A]

Yeah. About life.

[B]

About life, about politics.

[A]

But did you guys ever watch a movie together?

[B]

I don't think we've watched them. Maybe. I don't think so.

[A]

Really?

[B]

No. They didn't really have a lot of time for movies.

[A]

Yeah. But one day, like, let's kind of just. Let's watch a movie. I do it with these boys.

[B]

You did at one point, start. I, like, have never seen any of the classics movies.

[A]

Really.

[B]

And, like, someone they were talking about on the plane once, and he was like, you've never seen Chinatown? You've never seen. And then he's like, don't come into work Monday unless you've, like, seen some of these classic movies. Like, I'm ordering you to see some of these movies. Sure.

[A]

That's your commander in chief.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because he's a movie buff. But.

[A]

So he told you to watch.

[B]

Like, I went home and I watched good movies. It was fine.

[A]

Dude is so sick. Your life is sick.

[B]

It was.

[A]

And you were hot the whole time.

[B]

Debatable.

[A]

Dude, I've been looking at pigs. You gotta go. Okay. Can I tell you guys, I'm gonna be a little Jewish mother here, but with good taste, not bad taste.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Not going to Banana Republic and buy me a shirt. And, like, you should go back to the buzz cut.

[B]

You think so?

[A]

Aviators. Messenger bag, buzz cut. Aviators. This is way worse. And you got your hair still.

[B]

I do have my hair still.

[A]

Or you went to Turkey. Well, you went with Eric Adams to Turkey. I did.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The Isam Bull in New York. Yeah.

[B]

No. Obama said to me. We were once. He Was like, he gave you a style tip. He was like, I'm just saying. He's like, you're like a good looking guy with your hair. I think you could grow it out.

[A]

I think you listen to him.

[B]

He goes, I don't think you need to be.

[A]

We gotta call Obama right now. I don't know.

[B]

You're talking. It was easy. That was why I did it. Cause I was so busy and I had never had time to do anything. So I like buzzed my hair myself.

[A]

Let's go back to speech craft. You read a lot of speeches. Can I ask you a question? Sure. This is not political. Okay. Like, was Hitler good? Like, I don't know German.

[B]

So I did not spend a lot of time with speeches.

[A]

The chops, like Bill Cosby was a great comic. I'll say it. Okay. Was Hitler good?

[B]

You know, I just haven't listened to enough of his speeches, I presume. Yeah, yeah. There was, there was some charisma there.

[A]

Did Hitler do like a yes, we can't. What was his. This is actually. Where do you stand in the goat debate?

[B]

Okay, so this is.

[A]

You think Hitler or Martin Luther King?

[B]

Where are you? This is a good.

[A]

You've been a Hitler guy for a while.

[B]

This is a good story. His first, like foreign trip in the middle of the 2008 campaign and he goes to Germany. And so Ben Rhodes and I work on the speech and Ben goes on the trip with them. I'm back in Chicago and it's like an hour before the speech and Ben had the foresight of being like, I'm just going to run it by some Germans just to make sure we're not. There's no like tripwires, you know. And we have this phrase at the end of the speech where we say something about like a community of fate or something. I don't know. And Ben's like, yeah, we have a problem. That that is a Hitler. That's a Hitler phrase. That's a Hitler. We lifted a Hitler line.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It was a Hitler bar.

[B]

It was a Hitler bar. And so we changed it. We figured it out and changed it. Like right before the speech.

[A]

You had Ben ein Berliner.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Do you think Kennedy was actually that hot?

[B]

Kennedy, yeah.

[A]

People are like, that's hot. Obama should be. Yeah, Obama's that smile.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. He's probably hotter.

[A]

Did you write the lines that were like, for a skinny kid with big ears and a funny name.

[B]

That's him.

[A]

Oh, God. I loved what he did when he talked about how he Was like, I got a funny name and big ears. That's him.

[B]

That's him. Oh, he loved talking. He loved making fun of his big ears.

[A]

Oh, my God, it's so cute the way he did it. Oh, my God. There was one about what? Lincoln, though, right?

[B]

Lincoln.

[A]

A gangly.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right. Wait, he likes some. He likes Lincoln references. Obama's into Lincoln big time.

[A]

Really? But he's a Republican.

[B]

I love when they say that's why he's bipartisan.

[A]

They say party of Lincoln. Like, they would have been in that part.

[B]

Yeah, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We just had this primary in New York in this general where a Democrat was being attacked by a Democrat. And it was like, in retrospect, it's Islamophobia. Like, yeah, like, it is like, yeah, Zoramdani is from the Upper west side. I mean, he's basically Jewish. I mean, like, he is. You know, and then they were like, this is Osama bin Laden. You were in a pretty vicious primary where your boss was attacked and there were Islamophobic attacks launched.

[B]

All kinds of attacks, I guess.

[A]

Like, and that candidate became the next candidate for president. Why is there a space for that in the Democratic Party? I mean, if we want to be like, the Republicans are racist.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, why is this happening in the Democratic Party?

[B]

Well, like, in that 08 primary, it was subtle, right? Yeah. Mark Penn, her chief strategist, had, like, written a memo that was like, we got to talk about how, you know, you're. That you're American and your American roots and that he's not as American. It was like, something. I'm paraphrasing. But, yeah, it was pretty bad. It got worse when, obviously, in the general, when Sarah Palin did her thing, but.

[A]

What was her thing?

[B]

Yeah, just being.

[A]

She made that movie.

[B]

She did make that movie. Oh, that reality show.

[A]

Oh, never mind. I talk about that different thing.

[B]

Oh, yeah, that movie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's a good one.

[A]

But I found out it wasn't Sarah Palin. It was Lisa Ann. It's called Nayland Palin. It's a pornography. Was the guy in it Barack Obama?

[B]

No, I don't think so.

[A]

No. Was it McCain?

[B]

Who could have been McCain?

[A]

Was it Putin? Because she saw him from the House.

[B]

That would have been a good.

[A]

That would have been good if he, like, across the Bering Strait.

[B]

Do a remake.

[A]

If they fell in love. Across the Bering Strait. Yeah. We just made it just a beautiful story, like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then just hardcore sex. Anyway. Has Barack Obama ever seen. We Cut that. Okay. Cut that. That's just. Come on, we're having fun. Cut that. You ever hoop with Obama?

[B]

No, they never. They never asked me to hoop. Yeah. Yeah, but you were telling me, you know what? We were in the. We were. We were in the campaign once, like, at some stop, and they were like, do you want to. Do you want to play tomorrow? And I'm like, no, I don't want to play tomorrow morning. Yeah, I'm gonna be horrible. I'm gonna be in my. I could, like, in your head. I could barely play when I was, like, a freshman in high school, so I can't imagine embarrassing myself and, like, being in my head when I was with the. With the president.

[A]

But you said that you were saying before the show, I mean, I don't know if this was off the record, but that Obama calls bullshit fouls in pickup guns. People are like, fucking, come on, dude. Come on. This is a bad line, though. I want to criticize this.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Our children are going to have to turn off the TV set once in a while and put away the video games and start hitting the books. You wrote that at, what, 24 for Obama?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What a fucking loser.

[B]

Loser.

[A]

You wrote, like, turn off the damn. You wrote, pull up your damn pants.

[B]

Pants.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He was big on all that.

[A]

He was a pull up your damn pants guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where'd he say he stole that from, Cosby, though?

[B]

He did. One of many. Yeah.

[A]

All right. I went to school in D.C. i remember the night we were talking about this on the phone yesterday. But the night Obama won, it was like. It was incredible.

[B]

My experience from that night, which I'll always remember. So I was working on the speech, like, the couple days before, and I was trying to figure out an ending to the speech if we won. And I seen some story on CNN about how there was like a three hour line to vote in Atlanta, and there was this woman who waited in line for three hours, and she was 102 years old and her name is Ann Nixon Cooper.

[A]

And Obama killed her.

[B]

And Obama killed her. And so I was like, oh, this is a great way to end the speech because I can talk about all the things she saw in the century that she's lived in America and, like, all the progress, like when she was born, like, she couldn't vote because she was a woman, because she was black. And then you could talk through all the. And so right up the ending, Obama likes it. And then he calls me right before they call the final state, and he's like, all right, I'm gonna give you final edits. Gives me the final edits to the speech. And then my friend Tommy was like, you should probably. We should, like, call in Nixon Cooper and, like, let her know she's gonna be in this speech. So I have our research people find her number. I call her up. This, like, frail woman answers the phone. And I was like, tell her the whole story. And I was like, and he's gonna. He's gonna give the speech soon. And she goes, will it be on television? And I was like, yeah, it'll be on television. She's like, what channel will it be on? And I was like, all the channels. And she's like, I'm so. I'm so happy. I'm so proud. Finally. And then right as she said that, they call Ohio and it's the election, and, like, everyone's just cheering, and I'm, like, sitting there talking to Anne Nixon Cooper on the phone for a couple more minutes. It was. It was pretty cool.

[A]

I want to cry right now. I thought she was going to say she voted for McCain.

[B]

And then she was like.

[A]

Anyway, she's like. She was like, when he runs again

[B]

in four years, let me know.

[A]

I'm 102. You think I voted for Obama, you idiot.

[B]

That Muslim. Muslim socialist.

[A]

What is wrong with you? My dad was kind of like that with Bernie. He's like, they won't let us be the president. They'll kill him. He's like, yeah, just like my dad would not. He's like, I'm not voting for him. Cause he's Jewish. Adam. They're not gonna let us. He's like, I agree with pretty much everything he stands for, but, Adam, come on. They let us be Supreme Court. They only let two Catholics. It's kinda. Yeah, it's kind of a proper Protestant country. Think about it.

[B]

Yeah, it is. Yeah.

[A]

Well, Obama was a Muslim, I guess, but. And Trump is Baha'. I Love when he talks about how much he loves the Bible. He's like, the Bible is great. It's like, I know all the parts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like when LeBron was talking about the autobiography of Malcolm X, he's like. And he was on page one. He's like, it's just how smart he was. You're like, in the middle of history, right? Did your mom still tell you to go to law school that night?

[B]

No. That they were. They let go of the law school.

[A]

They were like, you're. Now you're making 35.

[B]

This is great. You're off to the White House 35K.

[A]

You're the richest guy ever. Loser. It was like a moment where it's like, America, things could get better. Because I think I remember 9, 11. And then things started getting sad. Maybe shit's gonna be better. And I can't imagine what it was like for you.

[B]

That's what we. We did. There was, like, an echo at the beginning of the speech about how change has come to America.

[A]

That was you.

[B]

Which was intentionally from the Sam Cooke song.

[A]

Oh, I say Hitler.

[B]

From Magana Hitler. Because we thought, like, we needed a good, like, American anthem. But that was also about not just triumphant, but about, like, injustice being, you know. Yeah. Solved a little bit or at least improved. But even then, I will say, as wonderful as that night was, and it was like, you know, we were all excited because the financial crisis had already begun. We all sort of knew that we were walking into a storm and that, like, we could enjoy. We could enjoy election night, but that, like, this was going to be even harder than we imagined when we started the campaign, because things were getting. Things were pretty bad.

[A]

You should have told me. I mean, that's. It's an interesting thing to bring up because, like, that was. I did feel like idealism, but, like, I do remember very early on where I was like, they broke the economy, right? There were people that ruined people's lives. And I was. I remember going home. I was, like, graduating college, 2009. So, like, the job market was terrible. Like, and I'd go to visit my parents, and there were lights off in our neighborhood. People had been, like, foreclosed on. And I remember, like, I did feel like that idealism kind of was extinguished when, like, they didn't go to jail. And in fact, they got richer, a lot of them.

[B]

Well, so there weren't. There weren't laws on the books, which is part of the problem, part of the whole reason the crisis happened that you could prosecute some of these people for. I remember there was, like, two Bear Stearns traitors who were prosecuted. Got off. And they had a. Then there was, like, a civil suit against them. I remember, like, years later, they settled that. And one of the reasons we passed or worked to pass Wall street reform, Dodd Frank was both to make sure that that never happened again, but also to put laws in the book so that people couldn't get away with that shit. And it was. But, like, I remember, but I.

[A]

Sorry to cut you off. But, like, I do remember that, like, Larry Summers was, like, saying, like, we need evictions to save the banking crisis. You know, like, that was a major influence in the administration. It was like, I was like, it's like, why are they letting these guys do that?

[B]

Like, I remember when the, when the assholes that ran AIG were gonna get their bonuses and we. I was like, well, obviously we got. We can stop them from getting their bonuses, right? Yeah. And they were like, no, no, we're gonna have to. He's gonna have to give a statement saying we can't. Yeah. And I sat down with Larry and I'm like, okay, explain this to me. Like, I'm an idiot. And he had a flight.

[A]

He had a flight.

[B]

Yeah, right. He had a flight to get to the island. And I was like, explain this to me, like I'm an idiot, because I was. Who doesn't know anything about the economy? Which I didn't.

[A]

Me either. I don't know anything.

[B]

And I was like, why? Why are they getting the phone? I said, well, it's contract law, and if we take the bonuses and claw them back, it's against the law. And then they could supervise. And I was like, here's the thing. There's people with pitchforks like, outside the White House right now for good reason. And like, this is a just. And it's just like indicative of those first couple years where there was just like unsatisfying decision after unsatisfying decision that we had to take or couldn't do anything about because the economy, what was set in motion that destroyed the economy, was already set in motion. So all we could. Now, I do think if we went back, we should have done more on

[A]

housing

[B]

for sure, because the foreclosures just continued for way too long, and it was much worse than anyone thought at the beginning.

[A]

Did you ever voice, like, vigorous, like, opposition to a decision? Because the thing is, you're a speechwriter, right? So you're not like, you kind of were like Obama's like, what do you think? Did you ever say, what do you think?

[B]

Not really, because I was the 20 something speechwriter, okay? So, but I got to see a lot. I got to. I didn't really participate, but I get to see a lot of the policy debates unfold. So because you see that and hear it, you start to realize, okay, well, there's a reason that they're making this unsatisfactory decision. Right. And so you sort of understand it. But people, like. The most common question I always get is like, was there anything that you just completely disagreed with? Like you had a political view. That's what the only one really was like, I, you know, he didn't come out for gay marriage until the reelect in 2012 and I was for gay marriage long before that.

[A]

Well, so you get Sharia law.

[B]

I think a lot of us sort of imagined that he was actually for gay marriage, but the politics prevented him.

[A]

He probably said it. He was probably like, I'm for gay marriage.

[B]

He never said it. I think he's, you know, he's also, he's, he's old school in that regard, which is like he's, I think he, it took him a little bit to get there too. I think he got there before he actually said he was for it. But I think that the politics got in the way, if I had to guess. But that was the only issue that I was reading.

[A]

So you never had to write a speech for something that you were opposed to?

[B]

No.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No.

[A]

You're never like, gay people shouldn't get married. The speech.

[B]

Right. Because there was, there was for a

[A]

gangly kid with big ears. I'm not gay, by the way. By the way, I'm not gay. And that's why I'm Managing your money doesn't have to be a struggle. It's your Monarch is an all in one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, budgeting accounts and investments, net worth, future planning together in one dashboard on your laptop or phone. Start your new year off on the right foot financially. Get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code TAFS. I spent too much money on gifts this year, primarily to my father in law. I thought it would finally earn his trust. But I suppose there's one thing left and that's brute force. I don't know if it's fighting, maybe it's lifting a heavy thing like a barrel. Unlike most other personal finance apps, Monarch is built to make you proactive, not reactive. Monarch has new AI tools which are built in and they're called monarch intelligence. This AI is hot these days. For instance, they have AI assistant, which is a 24. 7 access to financial coaching accessible from anywhere within the Monarch app. AI Insights Monarch combs through the data to surface insights personalized for you and AI weekly recaps which they personalize based on your weekly spending summary. Monarch has helped users save over $200 per month on average. After joining, 8 out of 10 members feel more in control of their finances with monarch, and eight out of 10 members say monarch gives them a clearer picture of where their money's going to. They also have a passionate Reddit community If you want to check that out this new year, achieve your financial goals for good. Monarch is the all in one tool that makes proactive money management simple all year long. Use code [e-mail] for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first [e-mail] with the code TAFS. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or scaling your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to claim your own domain. Showcase your offerings with personal website, grow your brand and get paid all in one place. I like getting paid. That's right. Personally, when I was starting my comedy career, I wanted to build a website to update my huge audience, which was an audience of zero at the time on my dates, which were mostly open mics at the time. So I would have loved to have had a tool like Squarespace to build that in my early years. Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer services and get paid all in one place. From consultations to events and experiences. Showcase your offerings with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. Get paid on time with professional and on brand invoicing and online payments. Plus streamline your workflow with built in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. A small font get discovered fast with integrated Squarespace SEO tools. Every website is optimized to be indexed with meta descriptions and auto generated sitemaps and more so you can show up more often on the search engines. So head to squarespace.com tafs for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use offer code Tafs to save 10% off and your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com Tafs for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use Offer code TAFs to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. What's up brothers? What's up? New year, new me. The goal for this year, 350 lean guys. Listen, my new I don't know, should I talk about it in public? It's kind of embarrassing. I'm working with a trainer. I think we were placed together because we both are white guys with glasses. I got a text from my trainer this week that said way to show up. It felt good.

[B]

I bet.

[A]

Yeah, it really did feel good. Listen, like a lot of people, January is when we try to start new habits and mine has been going to the gym and naturally we started looking at what can support our goals and including working out. You need supplements. But choosing the right supplements can be confusing because not only are there so many brands out there, the supplement industry itself is a low trust category. It's lightly regulated. Products are easy to make and companies don't even have a list for everything that's in the thing on their label. And that's exactly why I've partnered with Momentous. That's exactly why. It's what makes them stand out. They've become a high trusted brand in a low trust category and they weren't satisfied with the industry standard, so they built the Momentous standard TM their commitment to doing things the right way, not the easy way, which is how I work out. You know that because when you do the easy way, you hurt your back or your neck like you did. Let that be a lesson. Momentous sources only the highest quality ingredients on the planet. Their whey protein comes from grass fed European dairy cows. And their creatine uses the purest formula of creatine monohydrate. And every formula is made with clinically backed, highly bioavailable nutrients with no fillers and no artificial sweeteners. But what truly sets Momentous apart is their testing and transparency. Every product is independently certified by NSF for sport, Circle R or Informed sport, meaning it's tested for contaminants, heavy metals, banned substances and verified for label accuracy. So you always know exactly what you're putting into your body. And if a product doesn't meet the standard, it never hits the shelves. In a space where the trust is rare, Momentous is redefining what the trust looks like. If you want to start the new year with new supplements you could truly rely on, I can't recommend them enough. And if you have a favorite like their protein, creatine or omega 3, you'll feel the difference. When everything is sourced and tested as rigorously as they do Right now, Momentous is offering our listeners up to 35% off your first order with the promo code TAFS. Head to livemomentous.com and use the promo code TAFS for up to 35% off your first Order. That's livemomentas.com, promo code TAFS. Yeah, I think those first two years, the understanding is that you guys had a rough one, Right. And what, like, did you get yelled at?

[B]

No.

[A]

Rom, you never.

[B]

Oh, Rom did Rom.

[A]

You got rommed?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

He seemed a scary guy.

[B]

Yeah. But you know what? He was a scary guy. But I finally realized that when he Yells at you, you just yell back at him.

[A]

Really?

[B]

And then it's fine.

[A]

You would yell back.

[B]

I finally did. Cause he would fuck you. He would once in a while, he would just like, once in a while call and weigh in and be like, I got this great line for the speech that, like, Carvel sent me or Begala sent me, you know, And I was like. I'm like, okay, cool. What's the line? And it's a line that sounds like it's from the 90s. And I was like. And then he was like, come on. Like, yelling at me. And then finally I was just like, no, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And he's missing a finger.

[B]

Rom was a yeller, but we, like, the Obama campaign didn't have, like, yellers. That wasn't like. Axelrod wasn't like that. Pluff wasn't like that. It really was. When we got to the White House, some of the old Clinton era people that came on Rom, mostly Rom was like a. Rom was a figure that was different than the typical Obama.

[A]

Do you think that there was a resentment amongst those Clinton people? Because in D.C. my understanding is that, like, he didn't serve a full term in the Senate. Even Obama, he was like, you know, skipping the line pisses people off.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And do you think that in the party there was, like, a resentment that kind of lasted?

[B]

I don't know. I think that. All I know is that when Hillary came on as Secretary of State, we were all very skeptical, all of us on the staff level who'd run the campaign. I think her staff was also probably skeptical. I think that Obama and Hillary genuinely developed a good relationship. And so that wasn't much of an issue. Yeah, I think the more. I think the resentment probably came more from Congress. Like, Democrats in Congress did not think, like, they were very happy that Barack Obama was president. They loved him, but they did not think that, like, they owed him everything and had to do whatever he said. Because I think a lot of them thought, well, I've been here for a lot longer than you have.

[A]

Is it true that, like, the vice president is like, the loser? Like, the total fucking loser? I think that's what my understanding is, is that you get a vice president, you're fucking. You just abused them.

[B]

No.

[A]

Go figure out this impossible thing. Loser.

[B]

There's a little bit of that.

[A]

You'll be the czar of the impossible thing.

[B]

No, Biden got to be like, help manage the Recovery Act. That was his first job.

[A]

Why'd you give him a good one?

[B]

He liked it too. Yeah, I don't know. It was a good.

[A]

No, I think you're lying, dude. You can't have the vice president.

[B]

He probably got a bad job at

[A]

telling him the vice president's head can't get too big, right?

[B]

Yeah, no, no. The vice president. It's just tough. Cause it's like. It's a job where you don't have any official responsibility. So, like, every new vice president has to, like, make up with the president what their job is.

[A]

Obama would never be the vice president. Right. Because he's too. He's got too much sauce. He's gonna give a speech that's too good that John Kerry is gonna want to steal.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He would never be the president.

[A]

You can't get a guy that's like, gonna, like, look good.

[B]

Yeah, you can't get.

[A]

You have to get a guy that's like, you know.

[B]

Well, we thought with Joe Biden, we're like, well. And he's not going to run for president because he's like.

[A]

He ran every time. Did he run every time for president since 88?

[B]

Yeah. No, but he ran. He ran twice.

[A]

Did he skip one?

[B]

Yeah, he did skip. He skipped a couple. He ran in 2008. I think before 2008, he hadn't run since 88.

[A]

He loves running for president.

[B]

He loves running for president.

[A]

I mean, he loved. He even. Even did it last time, too. He did it last. He loved it so much. He did it last.

[B]

Stop.

[A]

He couldn't stop. He was addicted. Were you guys worried about his addiction to running for president? We were like, we love you.

[B]

The whole country was here for you. Yeah.

[A]

This is an intervention. George Clooney, take it away.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, America felt like there was. It was getting sadder and sadder. And then there was this moment where it was like, what if it's better? Right? And then we saw, you know, a guy that was super young and has, like, left off as super young, who is the first black president. And it was. That's amazing. We got rid of slavery at the shot clock. That was a buzzer beater. Getting rid of slavery. I mean, like. And in America, like, we, you know, it was like, holy shit. And then we kind of saw them make his life kind of hell, no.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You know, I mean, there was a real moment where I. That I was. Where, like, after Sandy Hook. And he's, like, crying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he's like, just fucking. Just ban bazookas. Like, please. They're like, babies just died. You had to have seen him, like, fuck what is the most bummed out? You saw the boy, I think then

[B]

after Sandy Hook, when we tried to pass. Because remember, we tried to pass background checks, like the most basic incremental.

[A]

Just make sure you could imagine Charles Manson.

[B]

Right. So there's a background check bill. This horrific shooting of children just happened. It was. Baby. The sponsors of the bill are Joe Manchin and Pat Toomey, conservative Republican from Pennsylvania.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you're like, it's not like a bunch of libs. Right.

[A]

And now Joe Manchin is a soft

[B]

woke with those two sponsors and doing the bill and Barack Obama and the tragedy. No, it just fails. Just don't. We don't get. And then he's like, if we can't. If we can't get background checks at this moment with these people, like, what. What are we doing?

[A]

Did you ever cheer him up? Were you like, can we watch a movie finally?

[B]

He honestly, like, he would cheer us up. Oh, yeah. He was like.

[A]

He was nice to you.

[B]

I remember after the. It was in 2012 with the reelect, and he gives us his convention speech, North Carolina. And I thought the speech. We all thought the speech went well. We were all happy. And it got some, like, terrible reviews from a few places. And like, Politico is like, just saying it's a terrible speech. Bill Clinton gave the better speech at the convention. And we're on Air Force One, like, leaving, going back to D.C. and I'm sitting there and I'm just like, reading the Politico piece to him and other people, and I'm just like, mad and yelling. And he's like, hey. He goes, how do you think I feel? I wake up every day.

[A]

You humiliated me.

[B]

I wake up every day knowing that half the country hates me and doesn't want to hate everything that I'm doing, doesn't like I'm doing. He's like. And I just. You got to keep going. He's like, this whole job is like making sure you listen to people, that you listen to criticism that you take in all the right information, that you really sit with us. But, like, once you make a decision, you made the decision. You let the chips fall where they may. And if people are angry or people criticize you, you just gotta keep moving. Because otherwise he's like, we're never gonna get anything done. And you're gonna get in your head. He's like. And my job is not to sit here and be upset all the time. And in my head and worried about criticism. My job is to do everything I can do to, like, help the country and make people's lives better. And then it made me feel like an asshole for complaining about a Politico piece. Dude, grow up.

[A]

Why are you complaining?

[B]

Obama, grow up.

[A]

Everyone hates him. He's wearing a tan suit and eating a burger with, like, French crap on it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Those were his scandals.

[B]

Yeah, the tan suit.

[A]

He's eating a gay burger.

[B]

Dijon mustard.

[A]

Yeah, Dijon mustard.

[B]

Forgot about that.

[A]

You fucking like that? That was on the news?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Were you in the Situation Room? That was his. That was the moment where he got love from everyone.

[B]

Oh, with the bin Laden operation.

[A]

You were in the Situation.

[B]

No, I was not. Read into that.

[A]

What a loser.

[B]

Loser. No.

[A]

What a loser. Were you outside, like, trying to listen in?

[B]

No. Cause I didn't. I didn't know it happened until. I didn't know what happened until I got the draft remarks of what he was gonna say. They didn't tell you from Ben.

[A]

Oh, you were a fucking loser, dude. Loser.

[B]

Well, I didn't do any of the. Oh, my God. I wasn't the foreign policy, national security speechwriter guy.

[A]

That sucks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can you imagine how sick it was? Hillary Clinton saying, this is my play. I'm calling all the shots here. Shut up. Obama, Seal team Six.

[B]

No, I was. It was the night after the correspondence dinner where he gave a big joke speech and he made fun of Donald Trump. And so we were very focused on that speech. And I remember the day of that speech.

[A]

Oh, he ruined.

[B]

Well, we were like, he ruined the world.

[A]

And then he killed bin Laden the next day.

[B]

He was so.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

We're like, we're gonna. So it's like John Lovett and David Axelrod and I were like, all right, we're gonna go into the Oval and just get last minute edits on the. On the correspondent speech. Great. And they're like, oh, he's meeting with some general. The speech is in five hours. We gotta make all the edits. Let us in.

[A]

You know, and so he's talking to Jeff Ross, the roastmaster General, obviously getting better jokes than your ass. No, he's talking about Lisa Lampanelli.

[B]

He's all of it.

[A]

The Harvard Lampoon guys.

[B]

We go in there and he's like, chilling, throwing a football around, just in a good mood.

[A]

No. Yeah.

[B]

And then he was like, all right, I like the speech. Everything's great. There's this one line where the joke is about bin Laden. He's like. And I would just make it some other, like, you know, bad guy or Middle Eastern sounding guy, because it was about. Anyway. And so he's like, what about Hosni Mubarak? And I was like, that's a terrible. That's a terrible joke. It's like saying Mussolini bin Laden is so much. And he's like, trust me, trust me. And the meeting before us was he was on the phone with General McRaven. That was like his last call before the mission.

[A]

Okay, first of all, let's go back. He's bragging, he's doing a wink because he knows that's a better line. Right. Second of all, or maybe he doesn't want to disparage the dead. He's like, I don't want to.

[B]

Was it so possible what? He's trying to make daiso. He wasn't dead yet.

[A]

The terrorist, Osama bin Laden. What is he. What is he doing?

[B]

He was worried about getting stuck.

[A]

He's like, it wouldn't be. It wouldn't be purple of me. It wouldn't be purple of me to disparage. His body's barely cold. I'm going to go in there, he's going to be watching porno and I'm going to shoot him. He had a lot of pornography, right?

[B]

A lot of pornography, yeah.

[A]

It's pretty cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I wonder if he had Naylon Palin.

[B]

Yeah. Full circle.

[A]

That was a good call. You got jobs, brother. You got jobs, brother. All right, you left. What year did you leave the White House?

[B]

2013. Yeah.

[A]

And how'd you feel getting out there in that world? You felt like, kind of like I

[B]

could go, I'm gonna take on the world, live life a little bit. Yeah. Take a break.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I moved out here. Moved out. Moved to la. I don't hear.

[A]

Yeah. You try to get in the biz.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I thought I was gonna like, rob, can your brother. Can I get your brother?

[B]

I did. Well, I met. I met with Ari when I went out to la and it was like he was exactly like his brother.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, I thought he was gonna be

[B]

like Ari Gold and that too.

[A]

He had a Lloyd.

[B]

I walk into his office and he's like on a treadmill on the phone, walking, treadmill, yelling on the phone. And I was like, is this real? Is this just like entourage?

[A]

So you were writing, like, really important speeches for the President of the United States, and then you're writing like a 30 rock spec script for your packet, basically. What's wrong with you?

[B]

Well, then we.

[A]

Your mom, your parents should be disappointed. It's a disappointment.

[B]

It was a disappointment.

[A]

I'M gonna be a little bit of a Jewish brother. Like, what are you doing?

[B]

Yeah, well, it didn't go anywhere.

[A]

I have to do this. I have no skills.

[B]

Then we started. Then we started writing speeches. My now co host and co founder Tommy Vitor and I, we started writing speeches for hire. So we did that for a little bit.

[A]

Do you ever get pissed? Cause you're like. It's not like.

[B]

Yes, all the time. That's why I ended up. I couldn't do that job. We did it for like.

[A]

Did you write at Zuckerberg? You dropped a Zuckerberg?

[B]

No.

[A]

No. You did. He was like, this is the change that we believe in. For a gangly kid with big ears and a funny name. You're like, what are you doing?

[B]

It was just hard to take. Like any company that was like the CEO really needs a speech urgently in a month. And it's so important because you know. And I'm like, this is not that important.

[A]

Would you write a speech for Donald Trump?

[B]

No.

[A]

What if it was like he gave you $1 million?

[B]

I could. I mean, what about. I could at this point, I could easily write a speech in Donald voice. Exactly.

[A]

In his voice. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

But I would not do that.

[A]

Arnold Palmer's dick. Yeah. I wish I did a good one. Did we. What was your specs? Your, your sitcom spec script. You did 30 Rock?

[B]

No, it was called, it's called Early States and it was gonna be about a bunch of young people in Iowa. It's supposed to be like a. Like a funnier, more like, you know, raunchier sort of West Wing kind of thing.

[A]

Oh, and they're like on the campaign trail. They're hooking up.

[B]

Yeah, basically. Yeah.

[A]

And there's a little.

[B]

It's like a veep. Little more veep. Yeah. Before veep. Yeah.

[A]

All right, all right. I wrote a 911 sex of the city spec.

[B]

Was that.

[A]

Yeah, Carrie was upset cuz like that's still in development. No, they're not gonna make it. Cuz we in this political whatever. But yeah, Carrie. Cuz Carrie's dating New York City so she's really sad. But Samantha has to get south of 14th street because she needs to go have sex.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then Steve and Charlotte or Steven. Steven Miranda. Are trying to spice things up in their relationship. They're not really paying attention to 9 11. And then Charlotte's like realizes she's watching TV that she had sex with Muhammad Atta the night before. What? I think it was a kind of a serious episode. I don't know if that's meant to be funny.

[B]

More of a dramedy.

[A]

You found a company, Fenway Strategies.

[B]

Yeah, that was it.

[A]

Yeah. What the. What the f. Like a Boston.

[B]

Yeah, Boston guy.

[A]

What were your strategies? Like you should blind a Vietnamese guy in one eye in a street fight. What were your strategies? Keeping minorities in a neighborhood called Jamaica. That's a little bit on the nose. What were your strategies? Mispronouncing car. Who put that in here? Was it just pure exhaustion leaving the White House? Or like, is there like a. Do you want to get off the bench? Yeah. You kind of like, possess a very valuable perspective on things. Do you feel like, perhaps like an obligation to. I mean, look at this shit right now. I mean, like, you should. What are you.

[B]

I do. I do feel an obligation, but I think that the reason we started Crooked Media and Pod Save America and all the rest and Vote Save America was because our theory was we need, like, the way people consume. News about politics now is broken and people don't want to participate in politics.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And people are unsure of, like, how to persuade people to, you know, vote the way we want them to vote. And so we figured, let's start a media company and. And also let's make sure that there's part of the company, which is Vote Save America, that like, registers people to vote, gets people to organize, gets people to run for office themselves. So right now I feel like that is me doing.

[A]

Yeah, but look how stupid they are. The guys.

[B]

The guys know, the guys in the

[A]

White House in the. No, just in the. In. In the show. The guys in the league right now are. You're smarter than the guys in the league right now.

[B]

You know that. But now we need a good candidate. Now we need a good candidate for 28.

[A]

Why don't you do?

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Why not? Why not? You're a good looking guy. You buzz the hair. You get that?

[B]

You think I should buzz the hair?

[A]

You get the aviators. You buzz the hair.

[B]

Put the aviators back on.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Less hair.

[A]

What would JD Bin Laden do about it? What would he even do? He would have no shot against the buzzcut kid with a gangly ear and whatever with a skinny kid with a huge dick and big ears. Did you ever have to. Did he ever write the huge dick? And you're like, Mr. President, you can't just say that.

[B]

It's show nutel.

[A]

It's. Come on, a skinny kid with big shoe, big feet. You know what, that. We all know what that means. I mean, like, yeah, I guess, like, yeah. Starting a media company, obviously you have access to a lot of people, you know, that's. You have a huge platform now, of course. But, like, is there a motivation? Like, is there something inside of you where you're like, I kind of, like, especially, like, seeing so how wackadoo it is now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where it's like, I could have a direct involvement or I could have, like, a. You're doing analysis now, right?

[B]

Look, I wouldn't shut the door on it, but, like, I'm always trying to figure out, like, how am I being of most use? And right now I think I am of better use doing what we're doing.

[A]

This is a humble thing right now.

[B]

Oh, no, no, no. This is just like, I do.

[A]

They're dumb guys. They're dumb guys. Now.

[B]

There's a ton of. There's a ton of smart people.

[A]

Who's the smartest?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Besides Bernie, obviously.

[B]

Bernie. Right. No, there just needs to be. But, like, you need a candidate, right? Like, you need a. You can get a movement that's good. You get organizers, you get staffers. You need a candidate who can inspire the country. And I don't right now.

[A]

Yeah, it's probably gonna have to be stop. Or me. I think a lot about your old boss, and obviously, you know, I think about him in, like, Martha's Vineyard, watching tv, and, like, he was just like, what the. Like, there has to be a small inkling or, like, fear, where it's like, is it my fault? Did I do something? You know, or, like. Right. Like, it's like the world fell apart, like, right after.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He doesn't think it's his fault, but I think he spends a lot of time thinking about, how do we get out of this? How can I help? And he spends a lot of time talking to a lot of candidates, a lot of people in the party, trying to figure out sort of. But he. I think he also knows that. And he said this. He's like, I. You know, I can't be. They can't be, like, dragging me out on stage forever. Like, there needs to be a new younger leader in the party.

[A]

I was at the election night at Zoran's speech, and I believe that they asked the speechwriter, you know, there were a lot of parallels with Obama's speeches, and that was, like, something.

[B]

No, I talked to those guys. They're fantastic.

[A]

That must feel cool. I mean, it does feel like there's a young, handsome, charismatic guy in the

[B]

party again, when we were.

[A]

And they're calling him a Muslim again. And it's like, wow, we're back.

[B]

Yeah. We were in D.C. a few weeks ago, and a bunch of us from the Obama world got to hang out with a bunch of the Mamdani staff. And it was great. We were like the old guys, like, reminiscing and so proud of them. And, you know, it's like we're all, like, different parts of the ideological spectrum, but there's, There is a real connection there in the. This was one of the first campaigns we can remember in a while where people were so excited, and it was genuinely grassroots and that. Like, it got people off their couch and off their phones and meeting up and knocking on doors. And yes, it was about Zoron, but it was also about, like, these kids, the young people in, like, a really tough time, actually allowing themselves to be hopeful again.

[A]

It sucks, dude. It sucks because you, it's like, it's like supporting Arsenal. I was talking about it with Zoro. It's the hope that kills you.

[B]

It is the hope that kills you.

[A]

The first time it was your fault. And then it was when they knifed Bernie twice.

[B]

This is why it's like, hope difference between hope and optimism. Not the first one to say this, but, like, I like hope. Optimism, I don't like, because it's like optimism is just guessing or hope or saying, like, maybe the future will be better now. And so now we elected Zoran and, like, he'll either do great or he'll disappoint us, and that's it. But having hope is like, all right, what are we all gonna do if you're living in New York City to help make sure Mamdani's a successful mayor?

[A]

Well, you personally going back to, like, you and feeling a sense of obligation, like, you had a firsthand experience on, like, a popular grassroots movement that didn't, that had trouble translating into, into legislative success a lot of the time. Like, you more than anyone I would imagine, could impart those lessons, you know, to, to, to an administration like that. Maybe you should be like, an intern or PA or something.

[B]

I, I, I take calls from, from anyone who wants advice. I'm always happy to offer advice. Yeah, I do a lot of, I do a lot of free work in my time.

[A]

No, you're like, I'm on the phone with Zuckerberg. I can't take his call right now.

[B]

I have to teach him how to buddy Mark.

[A]

I guess, like, at this moment, like, there's the Democratic Party kind of. It still hasn't Coalesced around like platform agenda, platform agenda, you know, opposition to. What is that coalition at this point?

[B]

I think back to that first video that Mamdani did in his race when he went to the Bronx and in neighborhoods and was asking voters who like voted for Trump for the first time. They told him why and he wasn't judgmental. And they talked how it was like, well, it's too expensive. And that's why I did it. I do think that whatever the coalition is for the Democrats, it's going to be like, hey, the purpose of a political party, the purpose of government is to make sure that you can do whatever possible to improve people's lives, improve people's financial well being. And if we, you have to be willing to first of all, talk to everyone, talk to people who didn't even vote your way, leave out the possibility that, I mean, hold open the possibility that you can persuade people and that people aren't unreachable just because they voted for Donald Trump and build a coalition of working class people in this country. And we, like the Democrats, will never win an election if we are a coalition of college educated, mostly white people, which is where it's heading towards. And you know, for a while we thought, okay, we're the more diverse coalition. And then we started losing working class Hispanic voters and started losing some rappers, working class black men, you're losing rappers, losing rappers.

[A]

It's not good.

[B]

And so, you know, we're still a diverse coalition but the way it's going is it's getting more college educated and you just, you know, 2/3 of the people in the country don't have a college degree, one third do. And so just do the math. Like we're not going to be a majority coalition that way. And so you've got to find a way to reach out and win working class people again. And the way to do that is to, it's really hard because you want to have an agenda that would tangibly improve their lives. But also you have to deliver on that agenda and you have to be able to like, Zoron is going to have to figure out how to get a big part of his agenda passed or else you're going to get.

[A]

It's a messy thing too.

[B]

It's a messy thing and it's not all going to get done. And so then you've got to figure out like, okay, I mean, we dealt with this with the Affordable Care Act. It's not everything we wanted, it's not everything we needed, but we got 20 million people, health insurance. And we still need to build on it, and now we need to expand it and all that. But it's hard to say, all right, it's super difficult to pass a piece of legislation this big. We did it. That's great. But now people are still not happy because for good reason, they don't have enough. And so now vote for us again, and we'll do the rest. Like, even saying it like, it sounds so piecemeal and incremental. And the reality is that's politics, and that's the way the fucking system of government is set up.

[A]

I mean, I think, like, I was obviously a big supporter. I was a big supporter of the Bernie Sanders campaign. But I think one of the advantages is, like, you go to the doctor is a thing that you can understand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it is a tangible exchange of, like, if you vote for me, you go to the doctor. There's a transactional aspect to it. Right, Right.

[B]

Like, it is a very simple and I would imagine, compelling platform to say everyone in this country should be able to find a job. And if you have a job, you should be able to see a doctor, live somewhere, and have enough money to raise a family some free time.

[A]

Only if you have a job.

[B]

And if you don't have a job,

[A]

you can't go to the doctor, then

[B]

you can't go to the. And if you don't have. If there's not a job available to you, then we'll help you as well.

[A]

Is there a feeling amongst members of the administration of regret after seeing what's happening with ICE right now?

[B]

I don't know, because it was my

[A]

understanding it was a small program in DHS that was expanded under Obama.

[B]

Yeah. Where we fucked up was the first couple years. That's where most of the deportations happen. And then by the time I think Obama and the administration got their hands around it, they change the. Because if you're president, you have a lot of latitude there. And so you can sort of change the enforcement priorities. So then you can say, all right, ICE can only go after people who are criminal, like violent criminals or the most recent arrivals. Right. And so I think by the time, like, 12, 13, 14 got around to that. But again, you're dealing with this with ice, which is, like, has a mind of its own and got pretty big under the end of the Bush administration. So those first two years, you saw, like, a ton of deportations.

[A]

And the other expansion was under Bush.

[B]

Bush.

[A]

And then I thought Bush was trying to do the. He was trying to do Amnesty, wasn't he?

[B]

And so were we. The president can do a whole bunch of stuff on enforcement and either enforce more, as Trump is doing now, or enforce less, as we did by the end of Obama's second term. But you're never going to actually fix the system unless you change the laws and say, okay, the people who are here who are undocumented, you all get a path to citizenship, you get protection from deportation. And we're not just going to say that you get protection under one president, and then if Donald Trump wins again, you lose it, we're going to write it into law.

[A]

I had Lena Khan on the show, and she was talking about how there was a. Like, an inquest or, like, some tribunal after World War II in Congress, like, into, like, how does a country become the Nazis? And I'm like, whoa. I was like, they try to learn a lesson. I'm like, that's. I mean, that sounds baffling in this day and age, right? But then in the abstract, I understood kind of what was going on with the detainments. But there are, in effect, concentration camps in America right now. And, like, just go. I've tried to say this before, but I think the most succinct way of saying it is like, how does a country become Nazis? Like, not every German person became a Nazi or started hating Jews. They just. It was largely invisible. A lot of the time they would see people get snatched, and then they'd go to the office the next day and, like, they were sent to the East. And I think, like, I can see the Democratic Party sometimes being like, we gotta protect Social Security. You know, like, I can see them be like, we don't have time. This is happening. But, like, what's more important is protecting Social Security.

[B]

And that is, we gotta talk about kitchen table issues.

[A]

That is, I think, what's really scary to me right now, actually.

[B]

It's scary. It also, it's human beings. It's like what keeps me awake at night. It's infuriating to me. And part of this is like, we've been talking about Germany and all that. You don't even need to do any of the historical parallels, because then you get into all these conversations. Is it like that? Is it not like that just go from the level of, like, individual human beings. There are hundreds, thousands of people in this country, like, many of whom are here legally, did everything right, didn't just, like, cross the border legally. We're here legally. Some of them US Citizens, snatched away, taken from their families, from their kids, pregnant Women who aren't getting the food they need, that is happening in this country. And all I can think about is you can show me the poll that tells me, well, people don't care as much about immigration. And if you talk more about health care and Social Security, I get that. I'm a student of polling. I like polling. I've done it. But you can't tell me that if someone hears the story of the pregnant woman who is snatched from her family and imprisoned for three days with no due process, that that's not going to get them angry. And maybe. And if it doesn't, then I guess that's our country. But at least we can try to make sure that people know that those are the stories that are happening right now.

[A]

It seems like now is a time when we kind of need to take some lessons, not from just Trump being crazy, but from, like, what led us to this point, 100%. And what is, like, the first most important thing that we should be investigating or what is the biggest lesson we have to take for the Runway that led us here? I mean, because you were there eight for the Runway initial time.

[B]

I think we need leaders in this country who. And you brought this up when you talked about how the policies can sometimes feel small or incremental. But I think that Democrats for a while now have campaigned with a list of policies that poll well and also have campaigned sort of based on a sense of fear that either they're going to lose the election or that the other side is going to win and the other side is so bad that they can't say anything that would help the other side win. You know, and so everyone is campaigning very cautiously and speaking cautiously and given their poll tested lines and their poll tested lists of policies that work well. And I think one thing that I've learned from the Trump years and from the Obama years is if you want people to pay attention to politics, to be engaged in politics and to fight for the country that I think we know that we are better than sorry. If you want people to fight for the country that, that we believe in that, you have to, you have to do more than that. You have to, like, say what you actually believe.

[A]

Also, sometimes you have to pass the Civil Rights Act.

[B]

You have to pass the Civil Rights act.

[A]

And sometimes you might lose the south, like, forever.

[B]

You have to pass the Civil Rights Act. But even think, like, I mean, like, think of what it took to get so.

[A]

I mean, Johnson should be that example. That's what you were reminding me of. It's Like, I'm not gonna get reelected, you know, and it's not fair because I killed the guy from before. And, like, that is. That is not true. George Bush's dad did that. Okay, but. Okay, no, no, but, like, Johnson, you know, he made a massive sacrifice for the party and for his own political career to do something that was.

[B]

And it took 10 years of people marching in the streets, getting the shit beat out of them dying. And also leaders like Martin Luther King who, like, spoke in a way that was not just political, but, like, spiritual and moral about the country's, like, best ideals that we have never reached, but they're out there. And we need leaders who are gonna speak like that again in, like, moral and spiritual terms about. I mean, look, this. This is a country that, like, was founded on the most radical idea in history, that everyone's created equal.

[A]

Yeah. Not f. Cking.

[B]

Not f. Cking.

[A]

Wasn't that.

[B]

And, like, you've got to have that, like, set of values that you speak about. You got to tell a story about the country, about what it's been at its best, what it is at its worst, and, like, where it needs to go. And you have. And that story has to be told over and over again, and it has to be told with confidence, and it has to be told without some kind of a fear that people are going to attack you or yell at you over it. And I just think, like, that's the kind of. Those are the kind of leaders we need in the party right now. And I worry that people are thinking too small right now, not just from a policy perspective, but in a rhetorical perspective. Like, what. What is the story you're gonna tell about where this country needs to go and past Trump? We've now dealt with Trump for 10 years. We've all heard about Trump enough. Like, we don't need a whole primary in 2028. That's all about Donald Trump. There was a lot of George Bush when we ran in 2008, but, like, we didn't spend a ton of time in every speech talking about George Bush because everyone was like, george Bush is done. It's been two terms. We know that he up the country, and now we're going to talk about what's next. And I do hope that as we start getting towards 20, 26, 27, and 28, more Democrats are talking about, like, where they want to take this country.

[A]

Would he like me? Obama?

[B]

What's that?

[A]

Would he like me?

[B]

Yeah, he would like you.

[A]

No, shut up. He likes jokes.

[B]

He does like jokes. Yeah.

[A]

Have you ever told him that Kendrick Lamar isn't that good? He should put stop putting it on the list.

[B]

I've never told him that.

[A]

Now I wonder. Yeah, like, have you heard Future is way better? Is the society the institution. Society. Come on, dude, it's not smart. It's freshman year. As a writer, you can admit it's a little bit showing. Not telling or telling not showing a little bit.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You're just saying the society, the institution of the societies. You're not showing.

[B]

I'm not.

[A]

You're not painting. Oh, come on, dude.

[B]

You more of a Drake guy?

[A]

Yeah, me and Obama are. Obama just can't admit it because he's Canadian and he's anti Semitic. Has Obama ever sent you a selfie?

[B]

No, he's never sent me a selfie.

[A]

Have you sent him one?

[B]

No.

[A]

You definitely can. You. Why don't you just send him your first. Just say, I realize I never sent you a selfie before. It's crazy, man.

[B]

Hey, boss.

[A]

You still think he's your boss?

[B]

He's boss for life, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If he needs something, I'm always, you know, he needs help with something. I was like, sure, yeah, absolutely, sir.

[A]

You, like drop a baby. You're like, what? He's just. Can we. Can we face off Obama just real quick? Joji's favorite president is Obama. Joji is a 26 year old boy from Los Angeles, California, and his favorite president is Obama. And he wants to. He wants to face down and he's dying. He has a terminal illness. Shut up. Georgie's very sick and this is his life.

[B]

All right,

[A]

thanks a lot,

[B]

Sam.