OLIVIA NUZZI Talks Trump, Scandal, American Canto

Summary

---

The Adam Friedland Show

Guest: Olivia Nuzzi
Episode: Olivia Nuzzi Talks Trump, Scandal, American Canto
Date: December 17, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode features acclaimed journalist and author Olivia Nuzzi in a candid, wide-ranging interview about her career, her acclaimed new book American Canto, and her tumultuous experiences covering Donald Trump, navigating political scandal, and becoming the subject of intense media scrutiny herself. Adam Friedland and Nuzzi discuss the shifting nature of journalism, the celebrity of public figures and reporters, Nuzzi’s reporting style, and recent controversies that have affected her personally and professionally. The episode deftly mixes sharp insights, irreverent banter, and moments of vulnerability.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Success, Adulthood, and Ambition

• Early career: Nuzzi began covering Trump at an unusually young age (22-23), giving her a unique vantage point but also, as she recounts, possibly accelerating her adulthood at a cost to traditional youth.

  • Quote: "You were kind of in the press pool in the west wing at what, 22, 23, something like that. Was that stressful at any point?"
    — Adam Friedland [09:43]
  • Quote: "I think you grew up fast."
    — Adam Friedland [10:13]
  • Quote: "I was like, child of alcoholics. It's like a pretty typical response to, like, try really hard to appear collected, you know?"
    — Olivia Nuzzi [12:18]

• Reflection on ambition: Nuzzi and Friedland discuss the “striver” mentality and Trump’s own path from Queens outsider to the heart of Manhattan and American politics.

2. Trump as a Subject and Interaction with Power

• Reporting on Trump: Nuzzi offers unique insight into Trump's psychology, energy, and his relationship with the press.

  • Quote: "He's a domineering force... a wild animal... he's sort of assessing in real time, like, what he thinks that you want or what you need."
    — Olivia Nuzzi [12:40]
  • Quote: "You have to just meet him on his level... depending. I mean, sometimes he's just in a bad mood."
    — Olivia Nuzzi [13:09]
  • Quote: "He orients himself around power, too. He responds to energy..."
    — Olivia Nuzzi [13:41]
  • Quote: "For someone who's so egocentric and so unconcerned with others, he's really interested in others, and he's really sensitive to kind of what other people are putting down."
    — Olivia Nuzzi [13:41]

• Trump's loneliness: They discuss how, as president, Trump was often isolated, with few real friends and a deep need for attention and connection via rallies and phone calls.

  • Quote: "Does he have no friends?"
    — Adam Friedland [17:39]
  • Quote: "I don't think he has friends in the manner that, like, you might think of a friend... He doesn't, like, hang really."
    — Olivia Nuzzi [17:41]

3. The Persona of the Journalist

• Rise of journalist as celebrity: Both host and guest reflect on how social media and changing media consumption have put journalists themselves in the spotlight—often becoming news as much as reporting it.

  • Quote: "There's a lot of manufactured public drama... people who are sort of operating in bad faith in public spaces just trying to perpetuate it for, you know, personal gain..."
    — Olivia Nuzzi [06:16]
  • Quote: "It's not a new thing for journalists to have, like, sort of a personal brand... Edward R. Murrow... his most famous moments were often when he deviated from straight news."
    — Olivia Nuzzi [06:42]

• Character-driven reporting: Nuzzi describes her writing style as “expressionist” and motivated by exploring character, regardless of whether the subject is a politician or a pop star.

  • Quote: "It's about character... for most of the last 10 years, covering kind of Trump's rise... it's been about just understanding the people... seeking or influencing or clinging to power."
    — Olivia Nuzzi [07:42]

4. American Canto and the Ethics Scandal

• Book as synthesis: American Canto serves as a completion of her decade immersed in US politics and the psychic cost of that proximity.

  • Quote: "This book was sort of completing this thought that I had begun forming ten years earlier."
    — Olivia Nuzzi [05:22]
  • Quote: "I was able to synthesize the ten year period and... try and make sense of what happened in our national politics and to the character of the country—but also... in my own life..."
    — Olivia Nuzzi [43:56]

• Ethics controversy: Nuzzi addresses her firing from New York Magazine after revelations about her undisclosed relationship with Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., the subsequent public shaming, and the online campaign led by her ex-partner.

  • Quote: "Those ethics rules exist for a reason. They're good rules... What mattered was that I did something wrong. And in that way, I hurt the whole industry."
    — Olivia Nuzzi [46:00]

• Public fallout and media harassment: She describes the persistent, highly personal campaign against her by her former partner and how this has overshadowed the publication of her book.

  • Quote: “This is this like harassment campaign that’s been going on for like 16, 17 months... and now it’s like this bad faith effort, I think, to present sexist, among other things. I think it’s harassment. I think it’s abusive.”
    — Olivia Nuzzi [49:38]

5. Handling Public Controversy and Personal Reputation

• Defamation & truth: Friedland presses Nuzzi about not pursuing legal action over particularly egregious claims, including allegations of suppressing evidence related to an assassination attempt on Trump; she asserts that those claims are false but explains her reasons for not litigating.

  • Quote: "That's not true... I don't feel like the onus should be on me to answer for this person's allegations. You know, the book is not about this person."
    — Olivia Nuzzi [50:57–52:59]

• Resilience and reflection: Nuzzi speaks openly about the emotional toll of public shaming, the importance of owning up to moral errors, and her focus on spiritual/intellectual growth over public stature.

  • Quote: "This is not at risk of shattering me. You know, it's just not. I think it's unfortunate, but I think it's very interesting."
    — Olivia Nuzzi [55:43]
  • Quote: “I'm proud of American Canto. I think it's valuable. But I also was aware... that maybe it wouldn't be considered valuable for, like, 10 or 30 years.”
    — Olivia Nuzzi [64:48]

6. The Broader Picture: Journalism, Power, and American Culture

• Reporting as performance: They discuss the overlap between journalism, theatricality, and the necessity of performance in both politics and the media.

  • Quote: “If you're in the conversation, you don't need to be nervous. You don't need. Right.”
    — Olivia Nuzzi [29:15]
  • Quote: "Because he's also a razzle dazzle showman."
    — Adam Friedland [29:30]

• Comparing Trump the celebrity to other public figures: Both share thoughts on why scandals now seem more diffuse and less focused on substantive political issues, even when high-profile figures are involved.

  • Quote: "It feels like it's all about you and your ex partner."
    — Adam Friedland [57:11]
  • Quote: “Because my ex partner is trying to harm me.”
    — Olivia Nuzzi [57:17]

• Personal consequences of public witnessing: Nuzzi reflects on the shift from observer to subject, and how being written about has changed her understanding of her work.

  • Quote: "I spent so much of this 10 year period as, like, officially cast as, like, a witness, right? And then to be someone who suddenly becomes witnessed and to, like, be witnessing the witness being witnessed... it's much more complicated and more interesting than I had kind of given it credit for."
    — Olivia Nuzzi [68:54]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I've thought about your inner life so much more than you ever have."
  — Olivia Nuzzi on interviewing Trump [08:20]

• "A politician is a man who wants to be loved more than other men, and through his pursuit, reveals why he cannot love himself."
  — Olivia Nuzzi [26:11]

• "You want him to like you."
  — Olivia Nuzzi on Trump [13:32]

• [20:24–20:33] Adam leaves a voicemail for Donald Trump live on air
  “Hello, Mr. President, it's Adam Friedland. I'm a talk show host in New York City. I would love to extend an invitation for you...”

• "People are fucking, like, pissed off at you."
  — Adam Friedland [47:45]

• “I wrote this book that, like, I think is valuable... I wanted the book to be like an honest expression about this 10 year period and about my own experience."
  — Olivia Nuzzi [47:06]

• "This is not at risk of shattering me... I'm not in a feud, you know, this person is trying very hard and succeeding, frankly in assassinating my character. And like, that's a choice. And I made a different choice."
  — Olivia Nuzzi [54:16]

• On scandal:

  • [57:21] "It seems like political sex scandals are like one of America's favorite things... Or is it that everything is so schizophrenic these days... that no one—"
  • [57:33] "There was a scandal about it in New York..."
    — Olivia Nuzzi

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Olivia's Early Success & Trump Coverage:
  [04:39]–[13:00]
• Trump’s Personality and Relationship With Media:
  [13:00]–[17:41]
• Journalists as Celebrities & Social Media:
  [05:29]–[07:29]
• Trump Voicemail Prank:
  [19:00]–[20:33]
• Writing Satire & Start in Journalism:
  [21:31]–[24:00]
• Navigating Interviewing Powerful People:
  [25:25]–[27:26]
• Debates, Campaigns, and 2016 Election Coverage:
  [36:14]–[40:12]
• Ethics Scandal, Fallout, and Current Controversy:
  [45:51]–[55:46]
• Reflection on Book’s Purpose & Reception:
  [64:22]–[66:46]
• Role Reversal: Becoming the Subject:
  [68:54]–[70:00]

---

Closing Thoughts

Olivia Nuzzi provides a rare, unflinching look at the emotional and ethical complexities of modern journalism in the age of celebrity and scandal. From her proximity to the core of American power to her navigation of very public controversies, Olivia remains reflective, witty, and bracingly honest. The episode digs into the corrosive effects of fame—both for politicians and journalists—and considers what it means to witness, participate in, and be consumed by contemporary history.

---

Summary by The Adam Friedland Show Summarizer Bot—distilling the famed intersection of news, chaos, and culture.

Transcript

[Adam Friedland]

Well, you think being so successful so young, like, kind of robbed you of an early adulthood, like, and that's why

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I'm fucking up now.

[Adam Friedland]

I don't know. I'm just asking you, maybe do you think you have to catch up on, like, 24 now because you were chilling with Trump the whole time?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

No, I think I'm good on, like, fucking up for now.

[Adam Friedland]

I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. What do you guys get up to? Zach? What's, like, the vibe over there? Yeah, no, no, I mean, like. Like, for what you do. Like what. What kind of stuff do you do?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Okay.

[Adam Friedland]

What's that? He plays guitar. Are you gonna learn guitar?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I really want to get my pilot's license.

[Adam Friedland]

Oh, pilot's license? Yeah.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Oh, that's my goal. That'd be cool.

[Adam Friedland]

That'd be cool.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Y.

[Adam Friedland]

Welcome back to the Adam Friedland Show. I'm Adam Friedland. I'm going back on the road with Caleb Pitts. Emerald City Comedy Club, Seattle, Washington. January 22nd to 24th. We're doing five shows. You get [e-mail] there's also a link in the description. And guys, tickets are going fast. They will all be selling out because I'm fucking famous and Caleb's. Caleb's famous. We're. Was that also, as always, I want to thank our members here on YouTube.com, you make the show possible. Guys, seriously, you have supported us all year and we couldn't have done it without you guys. If you're not a member and you'd like to join, members get access to all the episodes early. And if you'd like to join at the second or third tiers, you can get your name in the credits of this very fine program. If you'd like to join the Friedland Family foundation, you can do so by clicking the join button here on YouTube or clicking the link in the description below. Also, if you have Patreon and you prefer to use it, then the link for that is also in the description. Guys, Merch is available. TheAdamFriedline show. Check it out. Holiday season presence presents. Get your dad a hat. I think people's parents might have seen some of the show. My guest this week is Olivia Nuzzy. Nuzzi, if you're not familiar, made a name for herself as a correspondent for the Daily Beast, where she covered Trump's 2016 presidential campaign. And subsequently she was hired in 2017 by New York Magazine, where she published various well regarded profiles on the president. In September 2020, 4. News surfaced that she had been engaged in an inappropriate relationship with current Health. Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. That was described as emotional and digital in nature. She was subsequently fired from New York Magazine and has just released a book about the experience, American Canto, which has been overshadowed by a five part substack published by her ex, Ryan Lizza, alleging that Nuzzy had acted as a de facto political operative for Kennedy, among other accusations. Guys, the lesson here is that journalists should not be famous. And I stand by that statement, and I will die on that hill. So let's get to it. Please enjoy my interview. I don't know why I hit her. So let's get to it. Please enjoy my interview with Olivia Nuzzy. Scandalous, I think it was. I hope you like it. I hope it. Was it good. You guys liked it. I wonder if people. Yeah, okay. All right. Good. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome journalist, author, author of the new book on Simon and Schuster, American Canto, Olivia Nuzzi. Olivia, welcome, welcome. Thank you for doing the show.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Thank you. You have a nice outfit.

[Adam Friedland]

She didn't want to do the walk out and. Well, you asked, but, you know, you're a good guest. It's my house and you have to. So I'm being like the guy who asks his friend to come over and play video games and then he doesn't let him play.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Is that a type of guy?

[Adam Friedland]

No, that's. I'm sorry. I'm scared, Right? Why am I scared? Right? I don't know.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Why are you scared?

[Adam Friedland]

I don't know. Because I'm like. Because you what? You yelled at me about. What was that the Hitler thing we were fighting about on the phone?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

You just kept talking over me.

[Adam Friedland]

No. You said something insane. And then I said. You said that Donald Trump is selfish.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Are you afraid of women?

[Adam Friedland]

When I get yelled at by them, yeah. I don't want to get yelled at.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I wouldn't say yelled.

[Adam Friedland]

I don't know what. In that situation, I'm just constantly like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. It feels terrible. Anyway, I've heard your name a bunch. You're a journalist. You've interviewed the President multiple times. You're attached to various political campaigns. You made a name for yourself very young, and you've recently just published this book. How does it feel to get it out?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Fine.

[Adam Friedland]

Fine. Yeah.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah. I felt like I was sort of. I started covering Donald Trump in 2015, or I guess I interviewed him for the first time in 2014, and I didn't know that when I signed up to do that. Then it was going to become a whole era. Right.

[Adam Friedland]

You caught a big one.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah. And so I felt like this book was sort of completing this thought that I had begun forming 10 years earlier.

[Adam Friedland]

You know, correct me if I'm wrong, like, journalists, you guys all hate each other. Is that the deal? Is it a band of brothers or is it anymore? I think that, like, what. One thing that kind of I'm resistant to is that I just had a sports journalist on and he said that. Or pundit, actually, he's not a journalist, but he said that. I was like, is it kind of, like, is sports coverage is kind of celebrity gossip at this point? And he said some of the things that get the highest engagement isn't even related to the players. It's one pundit being mad at another pundit. Right. And that's kind of become the news where it's like the people covering the news kind of are stars, if anything. Am I off there?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I think there's a lot of manufactured public drama.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

And there are a lot of people who are sort of operating in bad faith in public spaces who are just trying to perpetuate it for, you know, personal gain of some kind.

[Adam Friedland]

But if you see two journalists popping off on. Against each other, if you see our girl. If you see our girl, Taylor, just going at another one, people are like. People are, like, locked in on it, you know, on Twitter or something, you know. Yeah.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah. Although, I mean, I think going back, I mean, it's not a new thing for journalists to have, like, sort of a personal brand. Right. Edward R. Murrow, like, his most famous cigarette, his most famous moments were often when he deviated from the straight news stuff and he expressed an opinion. Right. And expressed something of his character. So I don't think it's totally new. It's just a new medium.

[Adam Friedland]

Well, that was new in that era. Right. In this day and age, it feels like kind of more ideal. And I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, but people are upfront about.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Well, I think it's a bad thing, probably. Yeah. But I think just there's always gonna be sort of friction when different practices are evolving on different mediums. Right.

[Adam Friedland]

One thing I noticed, like, when I've read your profiles and they were like, I really loved them. But, like, the way you write in your writing, it does track. Like, you're like, it could be about Rihanna or something. Politicians are celebrities.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

You know, it's about character.

[Adam Friedland]

Right.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Like, what I'm always interested in is Understanding the human beings that I'm writing about. Right. And for most of the last 10 years, covering kind of Trump's rise to dominance, you caught a big one that's been about just understanding the people, like seeking or influencing or clinging to power. And when a character wants something, you know, it's a good engine for a story and a good way to sort of see their character brought into sharp relief.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. I mean, he's the most fascinating, probably public character, I think, of my lifetime.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I mean, he's very simple. And sometimes I've had the experience talking to him where I'll be asking a question, something about his psychology, and I'll see him start to lose interest in the question. I realize, like, oh, I've thought about your inner life so much more than you ever have.

[Adam Friedland]

I love the parts in the book where you write about Trump.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Thanks.

[Adam Friedland]

They're like, so three dimensional. And he is. He is, as a character, just like.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

He's fascinating.

[Adam Friedland]

He's fascinating.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

He's singular. He's strange. I mean, there's this one exchange with him. I think it's in the book where he was talking about how he was. He's not weird.

[Adam Friedland]

He's not weird as a person.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah. And I was like, okay, well, are you. Would you say you're unusual and he's. Okay, yeah, I'm unusual, but I'm not weird. I'm the most. Not weird person.

[Adam Friedland]

I guess there's a connotation more unusual. You could be like the cooler.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Unusual is more neutral. Yeah. Then weird is more of an accusation.

[Adam Friedland]

I think you're from New Jersey. You know the thing. Your book is like kind of like a shoebox of, like, photographs. Right. They're like just little pictures. I feel like. Is that accurate?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Expressionist.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

It's not like lindening or as much as, like, kind of images in different times.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah. I was trying to just sort of replicate the experience. Experience of the last 10 years. And with my proximity as this official witness to Trump's rise, what it feels

[Adam Friedland]

like you were remarkably successful, remarkably young. Right.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

And unsuccessful.

[Adam Friedland]

No, I mean, you were kind of in the press pool in the west wing at what, 22, 23, something like that. Was that stressful at any point? You just took it in stride.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

It was just. It's easy when you have a mission, like when you. I think there's like a. The stakes of politics are inherent when you're covering it. You never have to wonder if what you're doing matters, because it obviously does. And that's like A great gift in some ways. Right. Because I think.

[Adam Friedland]

I think you grew up fast. It feels. It seems like you became an adult quickly.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Well, but he was. It was his first time there as well. Right. But there was something sort of. And I felt like I understood something of his psychology because he grew up in Queens. Right. He grew up in Jamaica states. I grew up in New Jersey. When you're on the periphery, when you're outer borough trash, when you're on the

[Adam Friedland]

periphery, it's real estate, too. It's disgusting.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

You're always looking at the center at Manhattan. And his whole life seemed to be about getting there and then ascending to whatever midtown heights he wanted to ascend.

[Adam Friedland]

Honestly, good for him.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

But the personality of a striver in him. Right. And, like, this kind of resentment that he always had about Manhattan. It was interesting to watch it transported to politics.

[Adam Friedland]

One thing I thought was an interesting thing from the book is that you associated New York City, like, from a very young age with Trump. Did you feel like you knew him kind of like you'd known him for a while or something?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

He was just like this great tabloid villain of my childhood. Right. And then the Apprentice premiered when I think I was in, like, the third or fourth grade. He was always in the papers that my. My father always brought home, the New York Post and the Daily News.

[Adam Friedland]

He's an intellectual.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I mean, he was. He worked for the sanitation department in New York. And I just was used to seeing him every place, and I don't remember a time when I was not aware of him. Yeah, right. Like, he's in Home Alone, too. He's in Home Alone 2. And there's this scene in the book where I just. I remember being in my dad's truck on Central Park South.

[Adam Friedland]

I have an exit for you.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

And him pointing out that Donald Trump's town car was in front of us. And I was, like, six years old, I think, and I knew exactly who he was. I thought he was scary because he was the beauty pageant guy, and I thought beauty pageants were scary.

[Adam Friedland]

Here's an interesting thing, and this is related to you. It's the toughest interview.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Who, Trump?

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. You possessing that ability, just. It's the hardest difficulty setting and being able to do that from a very young age. Like, did you feel like you became an adult early?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I guess, you know, I was like, child of alcoholics. It's like a pretty typical.

[Adam Friedland]

You have to raise them.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah. Not successfully, but it's. It's a pretty typical response to, like, try really hard to appear Collected, you know?

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. Could you just, like, tell us more about how you just instantly knew how to approach that subject?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I didn't. He's really. He's a domineering force. I mean, he's sort of like the great force around which we're all oriented. Right. In some sense in the culture for the last 10 years, increasingly. So you have to be very, like, active in an interview with him. You have to. It's like dealing with a wild animal, you know, like. So you have to just. He's sort of assessing in real time, like, what he thinks that you want or what you need. Yeah. And so he's trying to manipulate you.

[Adam Friedland]

How do you. How do you, like, disarm that?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

You don't really. You just have to, like, meet him on his level and depending. I mean, sometimes he's just in a bad mood, but if you go in there thinking that you're gonna. No, he's not. He's not scary.

[Adam Friedland]

Do you think Trump would like me?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Do I think he would like you? I don't.

[Adam Friedland]

I mean, I don't know. I'm not politically. I don't like him, what he's doing. But you want Trump to like you.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

You want him to like you.

[Adam Friedland]

If Trump was, like, the way he likes Zoron, well, but he. I mean, he was just, like, in love with. He was like, oh, my. Zordon, don't ask that question. That fucking ridiculous.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

That was incredible. But I thought it was sort of like. It was a perfect example of how he just. He orients himself around power, too. He responds to energy, and he's sort of. He's sort of like just this wild animal who synthesizes other people's energy. And he's very. For someone who's so egocentric and so unconcerned with others, he's really interested in others, and he's really sensitive to kind of what other people are putting down. He is not sensitive in the sense that he has any empathy. Right. But sensitive, like, figuring out someone. Yeah, he feel. I mean, it's like, why he has to do the rallies and why, like, during COVID for instance, when he couldn't do the rallies, it contributed to, like, what was described to me by people close to him as sort of his version of depression. And it was.

[Adam Friedland]

He missed the shows.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Well, it was like he was able to. Yeah, he missed the shows, and he's able. He kind of. He's energized by other people's energy. He's the type of extrovert who just you know, he requires other people's energy. He feeds off of it in a kind of vampiric way.

[Adam Friedland]

I mean, you've probably been to a Trump rally, right?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Mm.

[Adam Friedland]

I mean, they have so much fun at that. They love it. Do the people there, like.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

No, not really. It's interesting.

[Adam Friedland]

It's better than the Democrat ones.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Well, they don't try to. They seldom try to replicate anything like that. Right. So that made it hard in, like, 2016, for instance, to really know how much value to place in the Trump rallies. Right. Especially when it wasn't being reflected in polling, because it's like, she's not trying. Hillary Clinton's not trying to host an event at a monster truck arena. So there's nothing really to compare it to.

[Adam Friedland]

They'll just wheel out, like, Oprah and be like, wave.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I also just think part of it's just kind of about loneliness and boomer loneliness, where it's like, there's just. He's. The show is rolling through town, and maybe you're in, like, Biloxi, Mississippi or something, or somewhere in Oklahoma. And like, you. There are not that many, I think, opportunities to hang out in tailgate and listen to Elton John and the Stones and Pavarotti and YMCA and chill with. It's funny. For a long time, the song at the, like, end of those rallies was not. The YMCA was you can't always get what you want, which I thought was very funny.

[Adam Friedland]

When he came out on election night, right. Didn't he come out to the. I remember. I remember it was the, like, 2016. Didn't he come out 21, you mean? Yeah. So you can't always get what you want.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

No.

[Adam Friedland]

And I remember his fat body in silhouette, like.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah, like a Hitchcock, maybe.

[Adam Friedland]

It was. I mean, it was one of the most insane things I've ever seen in my entire life.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

But I talked to him about this, and in the book where I. That night when he came out, we were in Midtown, I think, at like, the Hilton or something, and he looked. There's this scene in the movie the Candidate with Robert Redford that I think is about Jerry Brown, but he. He wins. And he has this dumbfounded. He just looks terrified, right? And he says to his aide, what do we do now? And he looks really scared. And then the crowd sort of comes between them while he looks helplessly. And I brought this up to Trump, and I was like, oh, you reminded me of Redford. And he was like. He got very, like.

[Adam Friedland]

He was a fellow blonde.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

He was thrilled to hear that. I reminded him of Redford. And I was like, you looked scared. And he went, like, kind of sank back into.

[Adam Friedland]

He liked that you were blonde. You think?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

No, no. I was telling him. I know, but, like, Redford.

[Adam Friedland]

But was that part of the bond?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

The bond? I wouldn't say it was a bond, because some. I mean, more.

[Adam Friedland]

It's like when I say another Jew, I'm like.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

That were both blonde.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, he likes it. He's like, oh, there's another blonde person here.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

It seemed more about New York. Like, I think he really missed New York when he was in the White House and felt sort of, you know, like he was in an alien space.

[Adam Friedland]

I made a joke to Zoran where I was like, do you think the hang is so bad that, like, a cool guy came to hang out with him and then he, like, just. And it kind of now seems like that's, like, kind of a real thing.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I think so. And I think he's, like, homesick for New York.

[Adam Friedland]

Does he have no friends?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I don't think he has friends in the manner that, like, you might think of a friend. I think there. There are people that he. He doesn't, like, hang really, you know.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, well, it's. Cause he spends a lot of time on the phone.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

He's like. It's a very kind of similar guy. You guys are very similar. I was thinking that.

[Adam Friedland]

You have a phone.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yes. Do you want to call him?

[Adam Friedland]

No, Koovy, I don't care. I do this joke every episode. I'm gonna let. If this is the first one that actually happens.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Olivia, you should call him.

[Adam Friedland]

What can you do?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I don't want to call him.

[Adam Friedland]

He's not gonna pick up for me. Does he pick up? Oh, you said in the book he picks up every call. Get my phone. Get my phone right now. This is amazing. No, it's in the. Oh, my God. Does he pick up every call?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I mean, I. In my experience.

[Adam Friedland]

What if he's like. Hello, Adam. Oh, my God.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Hi, Nate. Nate. May I please have my phone?

[Adam Friedland]

Wait, you want to say. You want to. Just say. You want to say the number so our listeners could also give him a call?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

No. Well, that's. Yeah, I don't want. Oh, I don't really want to give you his number. I feel like that's not responsible.

[Adam Friedland]

Okay, so I'll call from your number.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I have my phone.

[Adam Friedland]

Where is it?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Oh, sorry. It's behind you, I think.

[Adam Friedland]

So you also have.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

No, I don't want to call from my phone. I want to talk.

[Adam Friedland]

I'm not gonna prank call Trump when I'm. My boys.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Actually, I don't even care. Yeah, you can have this.

[Adam Friedland]

Cool. This is awesome. Caleb, why don't you look more excited? I need you guys. This is the best thing ever. This is the best day of my entire life. Whoa, dude. Oh, no. You have pink.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

What?

[Adam Friedland]

Nothing.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

All right. Oh, Jesus.

[Adam Friedland]

I have orders, bro. What do I say to Trump?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Hello?

[Adam Friedland]

No, I should give him a piece of my mind after all this.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

All right. Wait, can I have your phone?

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Okay. Can you unlock it?

[Adam Friedland]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Here.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Let's see.

[Adam Friedland]

Do you think maybe he saw the Zoron episode? He might not. Should I ask him that?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I don't know.

[Adam Friedland]

Is it ringing?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

No, I didn't call yet. Your phone's about to die, by the way.

[Adam Friedland]

That's okay. I'm mad at you.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

You have. You're on 4%. You are on 4%.

[Adam Friedland]

That's enough for a Trump. Okay. Wow. No, that's not his actual number. That's the number he got. I don't know what to say. Can I leave you a message?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah. Okay. I'll probably call back.

[Adam Friedland]

I just want to.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Your call has been forwarded to voicemail.

[Adam Friedland]

Classic hip.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

The person you're trying to reach is not available. At the tone, please record your message. When you have finished recording, you may hang up.

[Adam Friedland]

Hello, Mr. President, it's Adam Friedland. I'm a talk show host in New York City. I would love to extend an invitation for you to come on the show. I just had Zoram Ondani, who I know you're quite fond of, and he's a kind of intellectual style, innovative Dick Cavett talk show. We also had Steiny, who I think you're friends with as well, from the Nelson boys. All right, Thanks a lot, Mr. President. It's a great honor, and I hope you're having a good day. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm so good. Do you think that was okay? You think that was good? I dropped Steiny. I also dropped Steiny. You might know that. Why the hell was Trump on fucking. This is Dye News podcast anyway? Okay, so I guess, like, I feel like I'm flying. Did you. Did you. When did you first want to be a writer?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

You know, I always wrote. I always. I was always writing when I was a kid, but I loved comedy.

[Adam Friedland]

You did? Like what?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I loved Carlin, Pryor, Chappelle, Jeanine Garofalo, Casey Calls Back.

[Adam Friedland]

And your book is inspired by the

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Divine Comedy, Sort of in the structure a little bit.

[Adam Friedland]

Were you Always a big John Waters fan.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I do love John Waters.

[Adam Friedland]

You guys just wake up a little bit, guys. I love John. This is the last interview.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I love John Waters.

[Adam Friedland]

This is the last interview of the year. Okay. This is the last interview of the year, guys. This is my sixth two weeks. Olivia's Olivia. Let's make her feel like the biggest star. You are the biggest star in the world. You're our favorite. This is the best interview I've ever done. You always like comedy. Do you write comedy?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

The first pieces I wrote were, like, satire.

[Adam Friedland]

Do you have any?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Somewhere, probably.

[Adam Friedland]

Like, what do you remember?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

It's a really bad satire. Like what? Yeah, like, I wrote. I got the first letter to the editor that I was the subject of. I was writing for an alt weekly in New Jersey, and they published this letter to the editor that was like, what does Olivia do for America? And I was really upset because I was like, I write here. Why are you publishing hate mail against me? I didn't realize how it worked, but it was. I wrote some really terrible thing. It was about the border wall. And it was like, if Republicans are so serious about the border wall, they should send the Boy Scouts to go form a human fence.

[Adam Friedland]

Why?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I don't know. It was like I was like, 17, you know, I was just like, being.

[Adam Friedland]

You were 17 with the border wall.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

We've all. I mean, we've had the border wall.

[Adam Friedland]

Oh, yeah, I guess so. I got associated with Trump. Yeah.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I mean, it's early 1900s. Really. It's like a USDA.

[Adam Friedland]

How could I forget? Yeah.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah. How could you forget? Yeah. This defining feature of the country. But. And then the border wall. The border wall itself didn't really become, like, the point of immigration debates on the left and Right. Until the Obama administration. Before that, it was really about, like. It wasn't so much about the interior of the country. It was a bipartisan issue to fund the border wall. Right. 2006, like Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, all sorts of Democrats funded. Voted to fund the border wall construction. So it was not like this super contested issue for a long time.

[Adam Friedland]

Should I call Trump back? Maybe I forgot. I feel like I'm just thinking about this. I'm just thinking about this call.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah. How's he.

[Adam Friedland]

You just, like. You just know that here's the thing that's fascinating is that you write critically. Right. And you still maintain his trust.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Like, he doesn't read.

[Adam Friedland]

Well.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

He doesn't.

[Adam Friedland]

He hates the media.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Well, he's been mean to me. Like, he's been.

[Adam Friedland]

What's the meanest thing he said to you?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

He said I was dumb as rocks.

[Adam Friedland]

That's all right.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

He said I was a little derivative. Yeah. I thought that was funny. He said I was a whack job.

[Adam Friedland]

A whack job? Yeah, it was pretty funny.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Pretty good. Yeah. He called me.

[Adam Friedland]

That's so Trump to say whack job.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

Did he ever call you a dog? Cause he always calls women dogs.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

He also says people have choked like a dog. Like Mitt Romney choked like a dog.

[Adam Friedland]

Like a dog.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

He hates animals. Yeah. And so when he talks, when he compares people to animals, it's usually just to dehumanize them in some way.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. To dog them. Well, Baghdadi, right. When he killed that terrorist, he said he died like a dog.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Right. Which I don't know what that means exactly. To die like a dog.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. What does that mean at all?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I don't know.

[Adam Friedland]

Do you remember what spurned his anger at you?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Sometimes it's a question he doesn't like, or if he. He's failing in his efforts to sort of manipulate you in real time. He gets agitated.

[Adam Friedland]

Who does he manipulate? Who's like.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

He's very, like. He's charming. Right. And so. And he's like a good hang in a way, like, you can talk to. He wants to talk about. He likes to gossip. Yeah, he loves talking about.

[Adam Friedland]

I got a good gossip for him. I should call him back.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah. What's the gossip?

[Adam Friedland]

I'm like, I can't say. Other celebrity.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

You want to talk to him in private?

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, I heard that. I just heard that Marilyn Manson got one of his ribs removed.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Oh, yeah. Was that before or after the Richard Gere thing?

[Adam Friedland]

I heard that Richard Gere. Well, the first one was Rod Stewart was OD'd, and then he got his stomach pumped, and there was two liters of semen in it, which is so much cum. I mean, it's like an insane amount of cum. Take us through his charm a little bit more because I think it's just fascinating to hear.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I mean, he's just. He's a performer, right? Like, and so he's always trying to get people to like him. He wants to be liked. I mean, we all want to be liked. Right? But with him, it's amplified and even. Like, I think the defining trait of a politician, and I think I write something about this in the book, it's just like a politician is a man who wants to be loved more than other men, and through his pursuit, reveals why he cannot love himself. Right. And all politicians really want to be loved. But with Trump, it's like the added sort of Elvis quality to him. Right. Or Liberace quality. The Vegas in him, if you will.

[Adam Friedland]

Well, he's a television star, too. He's in show business. Yeah, he's way more that than, like, people think he's like Goldman Sachs. He's, like, from New York City real estate, and he kind of.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

And not even really. It's like a marketing exercise. And like, he wanted to be in show business, he wanted to be in the movie business. He wanted to go to film school. And I feel like the great lesson. One of the great lessons of the 20th century is if someone wants to be an artist, you have to let them because the consequences are dire.

[Adam Friedland]

Oh, okay. Because of. Yeah, because of Hitler. Oh, Hitler. I wasn't thinking of that.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Who were you thinking of?

[Adam Friedland]

I was thinking of George Bush.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Oh, also that. Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

Have we let him paint his paintings? The early ones are good.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I prefer his earlier work.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. The naive ones. Yeah. Where he's trying to wash off his sins. Yeah. He's just haunted by the ghosts of the dead. Iraqi 1 million of whatever. You kind of. Your first arrival was you were an Internet with a friend of the show, Anthony Weiner. I would say best friend. Would you guys say best friend of the show? Best friend of the show, Anthony Weiner's campaign. And then you left the campaign, you wrote it, became a front page story. Is that Trump? No. Gmail. Okay, sorry. I'm so nervous.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Okay.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, yeah. And then the New York Daily News. Were you recruited from there to, like, become a journalist? Or did it feel like, oh, now I'm in the game? Or like, when did it dawn on you that you were like, I'm going to be a journalist?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Like, you know, I was writing for this all weekly when I was a teenager in New Jersey, and I ran out of opinions really quickly because I didn't know anything, you know, garbage weekly. Yeah, yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

And then the Sanitation News. Yeah.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

And then when I started, like, performing acts of journalism and I realized that you could do that, that you could just ask anyone anything, and that there's a sort of, like, mechanism for my curiosity and like, a way to utilize that, and it was justified because it's in the public interest. Like, that was fascinating to me. And I was. I was interviewing. I think it was Rush Holt. He was a congressman and rocket scientist from New Jersey, and he was running for the Senate in a special election to filled a seat vacated by the death of Frank Lautenberg. And I had all These questions written out. And I was like, really nervous. And then we started talking and I just, I threw the questions out because I realized, like, you have to. If you're in the conversation, you don't need to be nervous. You don't need. Right.

[Adam Friedland]

No, I just, I. Is there an overlap between, like having a theatrical training early on and like, is there a performance aspect of journalism? Maybe?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I mean, well, certainly, like going on TV and doing stuff like that. Yeah, probably.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

And understanding Trump. I think it was helpful too.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. Because he's also a razzle dazzle showman. Yeah.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah. I mean, there's someone like a longtime aide of his in American Canto says, you know, in another era, if he was better looking, he probably would have loved to have been like a Cary Grant or something like that.

[Adam Friedland]

I remember you saying that. But also, he is way hot. He's one of the hottest.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

You think he's hot? Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

Vs. He hasn't called. Okay. That was the bank. I ran out of money. Guys, you're all fired. Today's episode is sponsored by Incogni. Incogni helps you wipe your data from the Internet and protect your privacy. Guys, I use this product. It's a excellent product because my data is everywhere. I've been spreading data all over the Internet since I was what, the AOL days? You know. But it's time to get clean with Incogni. Thousands of companies are collecting and trading your personal data without you knowing it. You have the right to request data brokers to delete the information they have about you. It would take years to do this manually. Incogni does the messy work for you. Incogni reaches out to data brokers on your behalf, requesting your personal data removal and dealing with their objections. What data companies hold most often is your full name, email, home address, gender, phone number, education, relatives, ssn, employment history and shopping habits. Oh, God. With Incogni's custom removals feature in the unlimited plan and family unlimited plan, you can point to any people search site or any website where your personal information is visible and one of their privacy agents will take care of the rest for you. I personally experienced scams. I personally experienced data theft and I've personally experienced scammer data theft in my days and I'm not proud of it. Listen, I'm a famous guy, but I'm just like you. I get scammed by scammer data theft, scams and data theft. They probably got my email and a data breach and sent me a phishing email. And folks, phishing emails aren't just what you go to the lake with your grandfather. You read in the news about another big company being affected by a data breach and somehow your personal information has been among the leaked data. Data even if you've never done business with said company. Oh, I bet you folks are on discord, whatever the fuck that is. And recently they had a data breach and there's an article they had a data breach. Employers, landlords and random strangers can access your personal details without your consent. So use code [e-mail] tafs to get exclusive 60% off. That's code tafs@incogni dot com tafs to get an exclusive 60% off claim your 60% off and get your personal data off the market. Chime is changing the way people bank fee free Smarter banking billed for you. Not like old school banks that charge you overdraft fees and monthly fees bill for you and not the 1%. Chime isn't just another banking app. They unlock smarter banking for everyday people with products like MyPay giving you access to up to $500 of your paycheck anytime you get paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Some old banks still don't do this because they're too damn old. Forget overdraft fees, minimum balance fees and monthly fees. Chime turns everyday spending into real rewards and progress. Bank fee free plus overdraft coverage you can count on helps you build credit history stress free get paid when you say up to $500 earned up to 3.5% APY on savings 8x higher than traditional bank rank 5 stars by USA Today for customer service real humans 247 guys it's a new way to build credit history with your own money, yet rewarded every single day. New card unlocks safer credit building cash back every spending and they just launched, you guessed it, the chime card. Okay, and it's a new way to build credit history with your own money and get rewarded every single day. No annual fees, no interest, no strings attached. And when you get qualifying direct deposits you get 1.5 cash back. And when you get qualifying direct deposits you get 1.5 cash back on eligible chime card purchases. So folks, I use this and you should too. It's when I was a younger man I could have really used this $500 two day early direct deposit would have really gotten me out of a bunch of pickles. A bunch of pickles in my younger Chime is not just Smarter banking is the most rewarding way to bank enjoy the millions who are Already banking fee free today. It just takes a few minutes to sign up. Head to chime.com tafs that's chime.com tafs. Guys. This episode is sponsored by Aura Frames. Guys. Christmas. It's in five minutes time, guys. And if you're hunting for the right gift, Aura Frames makes it look like you planned it all along. It's hard to find a personalized gift. All of you guys, you guys are very successful people. You work all the time. You guys certainly only make time for the Internet to watch the Adam Friedland show. And Aura Frames is the perfect gift for people. It makes it seem like it's thoughtful, okay. And I've never thought about anyone other than myself. So you just download the Aura app and you connect to wifi. You have unlimited photos and videos that are free. Preload photos before they ship. Keep adding from anywhere, anytime. Personalize your gift. Add a message before they arrive. Share photos and videos effortlessly straight from your phone all year long, gift box included. Every frame comes packaged in a premium gift box with no price tag. That's nice. I kind of actually they should have an option for price tag. So you see. So you show people how much you really care to the. To the scent. You can't wrap togetherness, but you can frame it. So for a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com you get $35 off. Or as best selling carver matte frames named number one by wirecutter by using the promo code TAFS at checkout. That's auraframes.com promo code TAFS. The deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast. So get your orders now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. You were first placed on the Chrissy campaign with the Daily Beast. Were you at those primaries in 2016? Because that was the best show of all time.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

The 2016 primary.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. Well, the debates. Yeah, I guess. Like, what was it like? Just seeing the RNC crumbling because like, he was a. He was a virus on the system, right? They kept trying to. Like there was another. There was one week where like lying Ted would try to take him down. And one week where they were like, marco, you got to do it this week. And he was just. You just saw this guy like, like Agent Smith. He was like growing in power. Like it's like it's a moment of American history that you had a firsthand account of.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I mean, there was in some sense, you could look at it like there was a real democratic process on the right that year. Whereas I think there are a lot of people who, for good reason, feel that there wasn't on the Democratic side. Right. That Bernie Sanders maybe would have been the nominee had the party not put its thumb on the scale.

[Adam Friedland]

I think she persisted, actually.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah. Nevertheless. But I Trump, it was like, nobody want. There were no experts available to help contextualize what was happening. Because I remember it was my first election year that I was covering, and I would talk to, I don't know, a political scientist or somebody to try and help me understand it, and they would tell me something like, you know, oh, well, people lie to pollsters or people get serious once it really becomes time to vote. And I would go on television and say this. And I talked to so and so who said this. And as it turned out, there were no experts. There are no. Political science is a contradiction in terms. And politics is extraordinarily emotional, and American politics and domestic politics is extraordinarily emotional. And he was manipulating that successfully.

[Adam Friedland]

I mean, he knew how to do tv.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Have you ever gone back and rewatched some of those debates?

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, they're the best. I watch all of them.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Your eyes just go to his center. Right. Like, he is the point. And they're all. They look ridiculous.

[Adam Friedland]

You remember they were telling the crowds not to cheer, and they just couldn't help. They were like, yeah, like, when did it dawn on you that this, like, this could be the President of the United States?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I remember I had. You know, it was hard because I was mostly covering him. So it's not like I was at every Hillary Clinton event or, you know, on the trail with her constantly. And I was mostly just trying to understand his supporters and also just trying to understand the kind of machinations of our election system. For the first time, formally, professionally, at 22.

[Adam Friedland]

21,

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I think I was. 22.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so I had a feeling, but, like, I remember discussing it with them to friends of mine, that we all had feelings that he would win, but you can't exactly, like, go report. Like, according to my female intuition, he's gonna win. There was no way to, you know, to corroborate that with any data.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

So, yeah, it was also hard to, like, you know, it was hard to know, like, how much value do you put on the sides of his crowds? Are they just there because they're curious and it's kind of like the circus is rolling down and it's something to do, or are they there because it's an actual expression of how they're going to vote. And it's not as though he won the popular vote. Right, Right.

[Adam Friedland]

And it was razor thin.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah. So in the end, it's like this was this marginal victory. And I don't, I still don't really know how much when you look back at just like the visuals of it. Right. Like Hillary Clinton in like a half full high school auditorium versus Donald Trump selling out some big stadium, that wasn't really a reflection of what ended up happening. Right, Right.

[Adam Friedland]

People are just like, ugh, we'll vote for her. Yeah, fine, I'll vote for Hillary. I'm not going to go to the thing, though. Yeah. I'm not gonna go to the high school and stand there and listen to her, but I'll vote for her. Fine.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Well, it's not like the types of people who usually show up to political events are unusual.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Right. They're unusually engaged and.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Or they are unusually, like, not busy in the middle of a workday. So it's not. You don't really get a great sense of what, like a quote, unquote, average voter thinks by going to, I don't know, a rally in Des Moines or names or something.

[Adam Friedland]

There's a really funny thing I pulled from the book. In the Oval Office, you're handed a page with 58 bullet points typed in large font, and at the top, underlined in bold, all caps, it said, trump Administration accomplishments. Yeah. Do you still have that piece of paper?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Do I. I don't know.

[Adam Friedland]

My impression of that first term was like, he was just like you. Kind of what you illustrated earlier was like he was the loneliest man in the world. Because it wasn't like, classy to work for Trump.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

It was a lot of people that hadn't been there before either. Right. And then there were sort of like, people who had been in politics but probably would not have gotten the opportunity to work in a White House, because most people who work in politics, that's the goal, Right?

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

And then you work in the White House for a few years and you're still. And you can sort of, you can command much more in the private sector. It's like this totally cynical revolving door. Yeah. Yeah. But it was, you know, there were a lot of.

[Adam Friedland]

Was the food good? They let you hit the cafeteria or

[Olivia Nuzzi]

you had to go off campus if you were, like, meeting with someone, like, you could go with someone who worked there, but you can't, like in the White House, like, press briefing room and behind it, where the reporters Are. There was just like a vending machine.

[Adam Friedland]

That's all you are. He has his own chef. It's not fair. If I was the president, I'd let all the reporters have the food so they write nice things about me.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Right.

[Adam Friedland]

President Adam gave us carnitas today. He's the coolest president ever.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah, yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

They let us watch. Did you ever watch movie in the movie theater? No. President Trump sucks, dude. Don't tell him I said that. Did he call back? No, it's my friend. Text me. Why did you write the book? As a blind item, like, as a literary device or like, you know, was that just a choice, like a flourish?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I only named. I named founding fathers, I named writers and I named publications, but I didn't name most other people. I used, you know, me and the

[Adam Friedland]

fellas, we've been having a blast trying to figure out who the people were. Yeah, I think I know who the politician is. It's George Santos. It is. It is George Santos. No, I guess you've written it over the last year.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

So what was like your. At the outset? Like, what was the book attempting to do?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I wasn't really attempting to do anything. I mean, I just was writing it, Right. And so I, In September of 2024, I had this, like, rapturous event in my life, right. And I fled New York, September 11, fled New York. I fled.

[Adam Friedland]

Why do I talk? It's my last interview of the year, September 11th. I saw myself in the middle. I'm like, at the end. You're, like, kind of left. Like, there's no triumph at the end, right?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

There rarely is, but I was writing it and I kind of fled New York and went to the west coast, and then the election was coming to a close and, like, this story that I had wanted to see through the election, I.

[Adam Friedland]

Did you not watch?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

No, I watched, but I was watching from this different vantage point right from the edge of the country. And it was like, it was the first time in my life where I didn't have a job and I didn't have anything to really go hurry and do. And I was sort of still for the first time in ten years, and I was able to synthesize the ten year period and, like, look back and try and make sense of what had happened in our national politics and to the character of the country, but also when it happened, you know, in my own life, to my own character and this sort of this warping of reality. And, like, it seemed to me that, like, amid Trump's rise to dominance, there's this sort of sprawl of this distortion field, right? That, like, he is the center, and in, like, the heat around him, everything warped. And I was in that center for a long time, and it worked for me as well. And that seemed, like, important and something that I should really try to understand.

[Adam Friedland]

Do you feel Didion's style being California? Writing a book?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

People, you know, I always felt like I was too Italian to understand her.

[Adam Friedland]

Like, too Italian?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Just, like, too Italian American to understand.

[Adam Friedland]

You're getting marinara on the book to

[Olivia Nuzzi]

understand that sort of, like, detached WASP ethos, you know?

[Adam Friedland]

I don't think it's nice to be mean to hip. Like, to hip. Like, what is. What's wrong with wanting peace?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

But anyway. But then I did understand it. Some people in my life were like, you can't be living out there in Malibu and not, you know, be reading

[Adam Friedland]

that, doing, like a Eat, Pray, Love.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Well, no, then I read it, and I was like, okay, maybe I'm, like, finally sad enough to understand it.

[Adam Friedland]

Why has it caused such a stir? I guess, like, in your estimation, my book? Yeah. And just, like, the. Why are you, like, in the middle of a fucking controversy?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I mean, last year. Year when I was at New York Magazine, right? Like, I fucked up.

[Adam Friedland]

You didn't disclose.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Well, yeah, like, those ethics rules exist for a reason. They're good rules.

[Adam Friedland]

Did you kill stories on behalf of Secretary Kennedy? No, that's been alleged.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah, a lot of things have been alleged.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, I've heard a lot of things.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I did not.

[Adam Friedland]

So that's not true.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah, but those rules are good. And there was a reason why people were really mad at me, and they were right to be, but it was.

[Adam Friedland]

Regular folks are mad about journalistic ethics,

[Olivia Nuzzi]

but I don't care. It doesn't matter. Right? Like, it just. What mattered was that I did something wrong. And in that way, I hurt the whole industry. And, like, that's. I take that really seriously. This feels different, though. Like, this current cycle of just uncharitable opinions. I don't. You know, I think it's. I guess I kind of feel like it's not really my business.

[Adam Friedland]

What's your business? Your life and your career.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah, but I wrote this book that, like, I think is valuable.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, but people are hating on your. I mean, like, just as for your career, you're writing a book and everyone's saying, fuck you. It's like, you want to sell a book to people. You know, I wanted the book, and everyone's crapping all over you, but I

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Wanted the book to be like an honest expression about this 10 year period and about my own experience. And I'm happy with it. And I also knew when I was working on it, anytime it would sort of like intrude, like, how are people gonna react to this? I was pretty clear, right, about the fact that people might just say, like, get the fuck out of here.

[Adam Friedland]

Are people reacting to the book or are they reacting to what's happening around?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I think they're reacting more to the latter. Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

So that's why I'm saying, like, it's. Obviously it has affected your abilities to get your book out there to people, right?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah, but I just. That's all right. Like, you know, I just wasn't. I felt.

[Adam Friedland]

You can't possibly feel like this is fine.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Well, it's not going well, right?

[Adam Friedland]

No, no, no, no, no. I'm not talking about the book. I'm talking about. I'm just talking about like the way that people are like. People are fucking like pissed off at you.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

But I could take it. Like, I don't feel broken up about it. Yeah, I feel, I think it's interesting.

[Adam Friedland]

Well, here's the other.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I'm more curious about it than. I am devastated by it.

[Adam Friedland]

Your ex partner. I read the sub cyclic. I really don't care about journalism like this. I don't care. I watched, I watched sports, I read his thing.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I didn't.

[Adam Friedland]

And first of all, I don't understand. Like, I'll say this for me, this is my opinion, okay, but it's like a little bit like bitch ass to serialize details about your a past relationship and a breakup for behind a paywall on your, like writing a journal website. I mean like, just for money to talk about like painful real life experiences. I think it's a little bit. It's a little bit. I don't know. No one's really having that reaction to him. I think everyone seems to be mad at you and then the third party seems to be a sitting member of the federal, of the administration. And to me, I'm an outsider, right? So I've just learned about this the last fucking four days.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah. But I feel like an outsider.

[Adam Friedland]

It's not distributed equally, right?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

No, I mean, I don't write about that person much in the book I reference you mentioned, but like I forgot him, you know, and I didn't want to remember. And so this is playing out in public. It's really unfortunate. And I also just think it's like, I mean, this is this like harassment campaign that's been going on for like 16, 17 months. Right. It started when I went during the scandal in 2024 and it continued. And now it's like this bad faith effort, I think, to present sexist, among other things. I think it's harassment. I think it's abusive. Like, I think as someone I met

[Adam Friedland]

with the target on your back, it's

[Olivia Nuzzi]

someone that I met when I was 19 years old, right. And was with for a really long time. And it's just like engaging the public and the rest of the world in this. Like, when I left that relationship, I left this abusive dynamic. Right. And it seems like that person is still existing within it. And if that person can't, like, control my life from within my life, then they'll try to control it from the outside. And it was all a way of just like stepping on the book, Right. And writing over the book that I wrote before anyone had a chance to read that book. Right. It started before the book came out.

[Adam Friedland]

There's that, but then there's also just.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

And also just providing a tell all that I didn't write.

[Adam Friedland]

And if indeed I'm taking you in good faith, I mean, from what I read. Here's the thing that I'm going to ask you directly about, because I don't understand why no one even cares. Right. The most absurd allegation that's levied is that there was a recording that was surreptitiously made by an illustrator in New York magazine. It included the President talking about details related to the Butler, Pennsylvania assassination attempt that have been hidden from public knowledge.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

And that you received a phone call from Secretary Kennedy while he's in Mexico on vacation and that you deleted that recording. Is that true?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

That's not true.

[Adam Friedland]

It's not true. No. First of all, with all this crap coming out, no one's talking about that. Even, even the people that are taking his words, like, as gospel and like, listen, I'm talking to you right now. I'm taking you in good faith. But, like, no one even cares about that one part, which is like, what it was an assassination attempt.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

So where. So is this individual, like, just completely just freestyling on this shit?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

No, I mean, some of the stuff, it's like, rooted in some fact. Right. And then. But then it's like, contorted in such a way that it, like it's unrecognizable. And that's what makes it hard to respond to. Right. Because it's. I can't say every single thing that this person Said is false. Yeah, some of it is. It's like, you know, when you get down to it, there's some truth there, but it's not. It's like there's this.

[Adam Friedland]

But why would you pursue defamation claims? I mean, this is like, I don't want to.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Because it's like, I don't want to be involved in what this.

[Adam Friedland]

If indeed this is not true. Saying that you fucking, like, covered up something related to an assassination attempt is egregious and it's career ending beyond your failure to disclose your relationship with.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

But the things that this person has written are not publishable by the standards of any actual news organization. Right. It just would not meet the standard.

[Adam Friedland]

But that is def. He's defaming you in public.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Definitely.

[Adam Friedland]

Even if it's on the Internet. Right.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

But from my point of view, it's like, okay, best case scenario, what, I spend several years and probably like seven figures to get a substack retracted and some kind of forced apology. That person clear your name. But I was with that person for 12 years. Like, I don't want to spend any more of my time.

[Adam Friedland]

So you make a fucking Jewish guy do it for you in the court. I mean, it's your name and you have. I mean, if indeed, this is like. If indeed you weren't killing stories on behalf of a politician that you were covering, and if indeed, like, you did delete evidence related to a presidential assassination attempt, you gotta clear your name. I mean, I would see no other course of action.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

My point of view is like, I don't feel like the onus should be on me to answer for this person's allegations. You know, the book is not about this person.

[Adam Friedland]

I'm not even talking about the book. I'm talking about the way people are talking about you right now.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

But this is about the book. The whole thing is designed to write over this book that I wrote. And I don't want to attack that person. I feel sorry for them and it freaks me out and I think it's disturbing and I hope that they move on. I think the problem was that it was a situation where I was really, really young when I got involved with this person. And I think that they became accustomed to violating my privacy, my space, etc. And I left. And I didn't leave in a great way, obviously. Like, I don't view this person as credible. I think this is obviously this, like, vengeance campaign, right? Designed to inflict harm on me. She's related to a fucking.

[Adam Friedland]

The president, someone shooting him.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

But there Are.

[Adam Friedland]

That's like. It's like James Bond style allegations.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

This is like an eight, what is it? Eight part series.

[Adam Friedland]

It's five. And you're acting like you don't know. But you read all of that.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

No, I haven't read any of it.

[Adam Friedland]

You're also a better writer than him too. He's probably.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Thank you. But I haven't read any of.

[Adam Friedland]

You know, you're a better writer the whole time. Just don't date another journalist.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

A very different type of writing. That's part of like, what was so

[Adam Friedland]

weird you're being nice to him though.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I've always been being nice about him. Like, I don't. I'm not, I've never been in. I'm not in a feud, you know, this person is trying very hard and succeeding, frankly in assassinating my character. And like, that's a choice. And I made a different choice. I have to like part of getting through this period of like being publicly shamed over the last 16 months. Right. I had like rules for myself of how I would, how I would deal with things. And the first rule is just I would never use anyone else as a human shield, you know, I would never try to like wriggle out of culpability by harming anyone else. I would, like, I had to remember anything that was fake is probably ephemeral. Right. That time if I sort of didn't waste the opportunity of this crisis in my life, this fuck up the opportunity to proceed better and become better, then anything fake wouldn't stick around. Right. That's my belief about it. And so I wasn't terribly concerned with that stuff. Like, I know it's not true and I have my lawyer respond when appropriate,

[Adam Friedland]

but like, oh, so you got one.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

Thank God you have one. That's all I'm asking you if you have a guy.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Of course I have a lawyer. Yeah. He's amazing.

[Adam Friedland]

Do you have a support system around you? Do you have like a. Do you have good friends that like, are there for you?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

This is not at risk of shattering me.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

You know, it's just not. I think it's unfortunate, but I think it's very interesting. But the response to this also is in the book, right? Like, I write about what I did wrong in my book. I write in American Canto about the truth of that affair. Right. I write of things that don't make me look good. I didn't think anything would redeem me and I wasn't trying to do that.

[Adam Friedland]

You said you lied, but I assumed like it was kind of vague. You said I committed ethics violation. And you also said. And I lied for him. Right, Yeah, I did lie for him, but it was. Yeah, right. It was with Lizzo. It was with your.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

But I, you know, the spin that he and I agreed on was like, that it was a flirtation, nothing more. Right. And that was. You know what? It's been the only thing that I've been surprised by because I knew, like, when I poked my head up from being in this sort of isolation, that I might be met by, like, some madman charging at me with an axe. Right. Like, I figured that people weren't going to be normal in general about me writing a book, but I didn't know that other people would participate in that harassment or other institutions would participate in that harassment or in my violations of privacy or in my being slandered or in, you know, just character assassination. Like, that was a surprise to me, but it's been interesting.

[Adam Friedland]

Why has this not spurred a political, like, scandal? Like, it feels like it's all about you and your ex partner.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Because my ex partner is trying to harm me.

[Adam Friedland]

But it's not.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

But.

[Adam Friedland]

Yes, but, like, kind of like it seems like the political sex scandals are, like, one of America's favorite things. Is it that everything is so schizophrenic these days and there's just scandal, scandal, scandal, scandal. That no one.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

There was a scandal about it. There was a scandal about it in New York.

[Adam Friedland]

But did he face any blowback from. From it? The Honorable Reverend Doctor Secretary.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I mean, it was before the election, right?

[Adam Friedland]

Oh, he's a candidate or a surrogate for Trump.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

He, at that point that the scandal kind of sparked. He had dropped out of the presidential race and he had endorsed Donald Trump. Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

Do you buy all that crap he says about the health stuff?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

No.

[Adam Friedland]

You think it's dangerous?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah, yeah, some of it. Yeah. I also think that there are some good things that he's done, too. Right. Like, I think when it comes to processed foods, diets, pesticides, I thought the work that he did as an environmentalist was important. Suing Monsanto. That's great. I think that's great. But when it comes to degrading trust in the medical profession, or when it comes to negatively affecting vaccination rates or sowing confusion about that stuff, or relying on people who are not credible or just not being transparent in government.

[Adam Friedland]

Dr. Umar.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Not good. Right. And I, you know, among things that we shared, I think was just like a broad skepticism, power. Right.

[Adam Friedland]

You fell in love with someone.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah. I just fell in love with someone and in the wrong circumstances and the wrong person. Right. And I handled.

[Adam Friedland]

When did you first feel like you'd fall in love with.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I write about it in the book.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, but like, he's told you he loved you, you didn't say it back. A couple times. Had it started before your profile of him?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

No. After.

[Adam Friedland]

Because you kind of flamed his. You dunked on his ass in that. It was a critical profile.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

He hated it.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, he hated it.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

He really hated it.

[Adam Friedland]

You are able to, like, write critically about subjects and then maintain kind of their trust in an interesting way.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

But don't you find, like, if you're critical of someone but you're being honest about it and it's not coming from. It's not in bad faith, you're not trying to inflict harm, you're just being honest. That not, you know, oftentimes people are alright with that. No. You don't find that.

[Adam Friedland]

No. No one likes to be criticized, even if it's legitimate. How did New York magazine find out about your relationship? Like, how is that. How did they tell you about it?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

They. The editor in chief confronted me in a meeting.

[Adam Friedland]

Had someone leaked it to them or.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah, Kara Swisher had brought it to them. She later told the New York Times

[Adam Friedland]

about that and she became aware of it from. You don't know or.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I have my suspicions, I guess.

[Adam Friedland]

So you didn't feel like you were like on a house of cards that could come tumbling down?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I mean, it just felt really besides the point, which is my mistake and one of the delusions I was operating under was that it didn't matter. Right? And it mattered. Everything matters so much. Right. Every little thing that we do here matters. And so I think, to me, it seemed. And part of what I spent a lot of the last year thinking about was like, you don't just wake up one day and make a big mistake, right? Like, if you're going to make. If you're going to fuck up in some rapturous way, it's probably going to be preceded by imperceptible errors in judgment and a lot of letting things slide with yourself, that sort of amounts to like a misconfigured worldview. Right. Or like amounts to a path before you that's, like, gone awry. And that was important for me to assess because a lot of people had told me, you know, when I was fired from New York magazine, a lot of people had said, like, oh, fuck it, just continue to cover the election. You should take this assignment or that assignment and you should just pretend that this didn't happen. You should be shameless. And it was like this expectation that I should or that I could assume the sort of shameless posture that animates so much of American life now and certainly animates the kind of powerful social strata in American life and that I couldn't do that.

[Adam Friedland]

So you. Are you saying you like chose to remove yourself because of the kind of ethics violation or was it because I was fired? Everyone fucking hated you.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Both, right? Both. Like I was fired. I also fled out to the west coast and I was really scared and I was like in hiding and I didn't want to be found. And I was scared of the person who's now writing those substack things. And I didn't really know, like everything had shifted completely in my life. Like it had been one way for a really long time and I didn't know what to do. And so I just. But it also just struck me that like, personally, as an interior matter, it was like this big spiritual event and like my moral error was important. Like it was important that I take that seriously. And I became really grateful that it had happened because it felt like. I think I write in the book about how it felt like the hand of God had come and swatted me off the path that I was on. And I became very grateful for that. That the only thing really lost was public standing and a job rather than something much more serious these days in

[Adam Friedland]

any industry, there's a tremendous amount of nepotism. You're a self made individual. You're from a working class background. If you are looking at losing that 10 years of like your work product or that trajectory, can you continue to that trajectory? Or. I feel like it's knocked off course and it kind of.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

It's on a different trajectory. Right. Like when that happened last year when I was fired and when I was writing the materials at first it became American Canto. I was already on a different trajectory at that point. Right. And that was okay. And I was interested in that. And that was necessary for me to have the perspective required to write that book. Right. Like I couldn't. When you're really. I write about how something can become so familiar, you can become so close to something that it ceases to be familiar that it becomes a form.

[Adam Friedland]

You're ready for president.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah, I think you are. And how old do you have to be?

[Adam Friedland]

35.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

When's the next one? 20. 20.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. But you're 21.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I would be able to do it. I'd be 35, I think.

[Adam Friedland]

Oh, you're 32, right. Jesus Christ.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

But so, but my point was it's like I was already on a different path and I was alright with that. Like I was grateful to be on that other path and to be like interested and have the perspective to synthesize that 10 year period.

[Adam Friedland]

So what's the path now?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I mean this book came out like a week ago.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, but like looking ahead because where the book leaves you and where you're at right now. Sorry to be a Jewish mother and tell you what's going on. But like you're. It isn't, it isn't a place of. That's like.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

But you're talking about career and you're talking about material life. I'm not though. Right.

[Adam Friedland]

What do you mean?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

This book is. To me, it was this spiritual moral event.

[Adam Friedland]

I understand. Yeah.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

And this book is a creative effort about in some sense the spiritual process of understanding this 10 year thing. Understanding my fuck up. Understanding where I fit and where the corrosion of my character fit within this broader story about the corrosion of the American character in this 10 year period. And to me it's like I'm not so concerned with the like. Nothing can be taken from you that didn't belong to you. Yeah, right. Nothing can be taken from you that wasn't handed to you unjustly to begin with. And there's no such thing as justice in public narratives. There's such a thing as poetic justice in public narratives. But the only justice is knowing that you do not share the qualities that the people who have behaved unjustly towards you. Right. So I'm not so worried about all that. Like I, I'm proud of American Canto. I think it's valuable. But I also was aware the whole time that maybe it wouldn't be considered valuable for like 10 or 30 years.

[Adam Friedland]

But you feel as if you've like proud of your work. That's what you're saying? Yeah. What I, what I'm seeing, and maybe I'm reading between the lines is like. Well, you think being so successful so young like kind of robbed you of an early adulthood and that's why I'm fucking up now. I don't know, I'm just asking you.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Maybe, maybe you know the writer Annie Hamilton?

[Adam Friedland]

I know Annie.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

She's an actress.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I think of her as right.

[Adam Friedland]

But she's an actress too.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah, she's an actress too. And she's hilarious. I love her. But she said something really Funny. Once I can't remember who. It's like a piece or a tweet or something, but that people always used to say that she was an old soul, and then at a certain point or that she was mature for her age, and then at a certain point, they stopped saying that. Probably something similar.

[Adam Friedland]

Do you think you have to catch up on, like, 24 now because you were chilling with Trump the whole time?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

No, I think I'm good on, like, fucking up for now.

[Adam Friedland]

I don't know.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Maybe.

[Adam Friedland]

I don't know. What do you guys get up to? Zach? Yeah. What's, like, the vibe over there? Yeah, no, no, I mean, like. Like, for what you do. Like, what kind of stuff do you do? Zach's in a band.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Okay.

[Adam Friedland]

What's that? He plays guitar. You should learn guitar. What are you gonna learn? Guitar.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I really want to get my pilot's license.

[Adam Friedland]

Oh, pilot's license.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah, that's my goal.

[Adam Friedland]

That'd be cool. That'd be cool. Yeah.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

Trump didn't call me back.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Trump didn't.

[Adam Friedland]

Oh, should I call him back again?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

You text him?

[Adam Friedland]

I don't know. I'm just trying to, like. No, I'm not saying that's why you're fucking him now. Like, was it. I'm just saying for you as a person, it's like, you're. You were busy, right? You were busy very young, right?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah, but I'm not. I don't know. I just feel. I guess.

[Adam Friedland]

Do you have time now?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I'm never bored because I'm interested.

[Adam Friedland]

What kind of stuff do you. California green juice, Crystal.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I don't drink. I don't like cold beverages.

[Adam Friedland]

You don't like cold beverages? You drink hot water?

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Room temperature.

[Adam Friedland]

Room temperature. Oh, me too.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. I don't like ice water because it hits my teeth.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I don't. Yeah, yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

We're dressed the same.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

It's crazy. I just think it's. Yeah. I'm annoyed that I had to learn about any of this crap. I'm so glad that we got. I got to meet you and talk to you because I thank you for having me, because I think that, I don't know, we just had Alec Baldwin on the show.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Very similar.

[Adam Friedland]

No, but it's just, like, the way people that are well known, the way people process their lives fucking up, is there's a revelry that people have people, like, kind of, like, jack off to it, you know, in the same way, it's like, I think, like, I see how talented fucking Alec Baldwin is, and I was saying this to him. It was like, you know, his struggles with celebrity undermine the very reason for him being a celebrity.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

It was interesting, though, because it's like I spent so much of this 10 year period as, like, officially cast as like a witness, right? And then to be someone who suddenly becomes witnessed and to like, be witnessing the witness being witnessed. Right. It created this really. And as someone who has been in the media for this really long period of time, I guess I used to think that there was, like, subject and chronicler, right? And there were like, there's that vantage point and this vantage point. There's inside the story and outside the story. And then this whole experience has sort of crystallized for me that it's more like this. This kaleidoscopic thing, right? It's more. There are. It's. There are a million facets to a story, a million different vantage points there. It's much more complicated and more interesting than I had kind of given it credit for.

[Adam Friedland]

Do you like being the subject? It kind of probably sucks.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

It sucks.

[Adam Friedland]

Maybe you should apologize to Trump. Say, now I understand what it's like to be the subject.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

It sucks. But it also teaches you about being the chronicler in a way that, like, does that make sense?

[Adam Friedland]

You need to let Trump write an article about you.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

You see, like, when you're. When you are written about. Right?

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. I can't read it.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

It's really, really hard to read.

[Adam Friedland]

You watch this? No, you. Come on. No.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I'm gonna ask you.

[Adam Friedland]

You're gonna want to see what.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I'm gonna ask Nate to watch it.

[Adam Friedland]

Wait, was it. It was mainly sexting. Not. Not on the phone or texting.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

I don't.

[Adam Friedland]

Well, you know what the joke, the obvious joke is? You're gonna get mad at me. Obvious joke is that because he has to text because he talks so funny. George Santos. Olivia does the. Everyone. He's mad at me.

[Olivia Nuzzi]

Sa.

[Adam Friedland]

Sam.