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- [00:00]
A
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- [02:41]
B
No, I think I'm good on fucking up for now.
- [02:43]
A
I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. What do you guys get up to? Zach? What's. What's, like the vibe over there? Yeah, no, no, I mean, like. Like for what you do. Like, what is. What kind of stuff do you do?
- [02:58]
B
Okay.
- [02:59]
A
What's that? He plays guitar. Are you gonna learn guitar?
- [03:02]
B
I really want to get my pilot's license.
- [03:04]
A
Oh, pilot's license?
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B
Yeah, that's my goal.
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A
That'd be cool. That'd be cool.
- [03:08]
B
Y.
- [03:37]
A
Welcome back to the Adam Friedland Show. I'm Adam Friedland. I'm going back on the road with Caleb Pitts. Emerald City Comedy Club, Seattle, Washington. January 22nd to 24th. We're doing five shows. Get tickets@emeraldcitycomedy.com there's also a link in the description. And guys, tickets are going fast. They will all be selling out because I'm fucking famous and Caleb's. Caleb's famous. We're. Was that also, as always, I want to thank our members here on YouTube.com, you make the show possible. Guys, seriously, you have supported us all year and we couldn't have done it without you guys. If you're not a member and you'd like to join, members get access to all the episodes early. And if you'd like to join at the second or third tiers, you can get your name in the credits of this very fine program. If you'd like to join the Friedland Family foundation, you can do so by clicking the join button here on YouTube or clicking the link in the description below. Also, if you have Patreon, you prefer to use it, then the link for that is also in the description. Guys, merch is available. TheAdamFriedland Show. Check it out. Holiday season. Presents. Presents. Get your dad a hat. I think people's parents might have seen some of the show. My guest this week is Olivia Nuzzy. Nuzzi, if you're not familiar, made a name for herself as a correspondent for the Daily Beast, where she covered Trump's 2016 presidential campaign. And subsequently, she was hired in 2017 by New York Magazine, where she published various well regarded profiles on the President. In September 2024, news surfaced that she had been engaged in an inappropriate relationship with Current Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. That was described as emotional and digital in nature. She was subsequently fired from New York magazine and has just released a book about the experience, American Canto, which has been overshadowed by a 5 part sub stack published by her ex, Ryan Lizza, alleging that Nuzzy had acted as a de facto political operative for Kennedy, among other accusations. Guys, the lesson here is that journalists should not be famous. And I stand by that statement and I will die on that hill. So let's get to it. Please enjoy my interview. I don't know why I hit her. So let's get to it. Please enjoy my interview with Olivia Nuzzy. Scandalous, I think it was. I hope you like it. I hope it. Was it good. You guys liked it. I wonder if people. Yeah, okay. All right, Good. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome journalist, author, author of the new book on Simon and Schuster, American Canto, Olivia Nuzzi. Olivia, welcome, welcome. Thank you for doing the show.
- [06:24]
B
Thank you. You have a nice outfit.
- [06:25]
A
She didn't want to do the walk out and. Well, you asked, but you're, you know, you're a good guest. It's my house and you have to. So I'm being like the guy who asked his friend to come over and play video games and then he doesn't let him play.
- [06:39]
B
Is that a type of guy?
- [06:40]
A
No, not. I'm sorry, I'm scared, right? Why am I scared? Right? I don't know.
- [06:44]
B
Why are you scared?
- [06:45]
A
I don't know. Because I'm like. Cuz you what you yelled at me about what was that the Hitler thing we were fighting about on the phone?
- [06:51]
B
You just kept talking over me.
- [06:53]
A
No, you said something insane and then I said. You said that Donald Trump is selfish.
- [06:58]
B
Are you afraid of women?
- [07:00]
A
When I get yelled at by them, yeah. I don't want to get yelled at.
- [07:03]
B
I wouldn't say yelled.
- [07:05]
A
I don't know what. In that situation, I'm just constantly like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. It feels terrible. Anyway, I've heard your name a bunch. You're a journalist. You've interviewed the President multiple times. You're attached to various political campaigns. You made a name for yourself very young, and you've recently just published this book. How does it feel to get it out?
- [07:30]
B
Fine.
- [07:31]
A
Fine. Yeah.
- [07:33]
B
Yeah. I felt like I was sort of. I started covering Donald Trump in 2015, or I guess I interviewed him for the first time in 2014, and I didn't know that when I signed up to do that then it was going to become a Whole era, right?
- [07:46]
A
You caught a big one. Yeah.
- [07:49]
B
And so I felt like this book was sort of completing this thought that I had begun forming 10 years earlier.
- [07:54]
A
You know, correct me if I'm wrong. Like, journalists, you guys all hate each other. Is that the deal? Is it a band of brothers or is it.
- [08:03]
B
I don't hate anymore?
- [08:04]
A
I think that, like, what. One thing that kind of I'm resistant to is that I just had a sports journalist on and he said that. Or pundit, actually, he's not a journalist, but he said that I was like, is it kind of, like, is sports coverage kind of celebrity gossip at this point? You know, and he said some of the things that get the highest engagement isn't even related to the players. It's one pundit being mad at another pundit. Right. And that's kind of become the news where it's like the people covering the news kind of are the, like, stars, if anything. You know, am I off there?
- [08:41]
B
I think there's a lot of manufactured public drama, and there are a lot of people who are sort of operating in bad faith in public spaces who are just trying to perpetuate it for personal gain of some kind.
- [08:55]
A
But if you see two journalists popping off against each other, if you see our girl, if you see our girl, Taylor, just going at another one, people are locked in on it on Twitter or something.
- [09:07]
B
Yeah. Although, I mean, I think going back, I mean, it's not a new thing for journalists to have, like, sort of a personal brand. Right. Edward R. Murrow, like, his most famous cigarette, his most famous moments were often when he deviated from the straight news stuff and he expressed an opinion. Right. And expressed something of his character. So I don't think it's totally new. It's just a new medium.
- [09:35]
A
Well, that was new in that era. Right. In this day and age, it feels like kind of more. And I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, but people are up front.
- [09:42]
B
Well, I think it's a bad thing, probably. Yeah. But I think just there's always going to be sort of friction when different practices are evolving on different mediums. Right.
- [09:54]
A
One thing I noticed, like, when I've read your profiles, and they were like, I really loved them. Like, but, like, the way you write in your writing, it does track. Like, you're like, it could be about Rihanna or something. Politicians are celebrities now.
- [10:08]
B
You know, it's about character. Right. Like, what I'm always interested in is understanding the human beings that I'm writing about. Right. And for most of the last 10 years covering kind of Trump's rise to dominance.
- [10:20]
A
You caught a big one that's been.
- [10:21]
B
About just understanding the people, like seeking or influencing or clinging to power. And when a character wants something, it's a good engine for a story and a good way to sort of see their character brought into sharp relief.
- [10:39]
A
Yeah. I mean, he's the most fascinating, probably public character, I think, of my lifetime.
- [10:45]
B
I mean, he's very simple. And sometimes I've had the experience talking to him where I'll be asking a question, something about his psychology, and I'll see him start to lose interest in the question. I realize, like, oh, I've thought about your inner life so much more than you ever have.
- [11:00]
A
I love the parts in the book where you write about Trump.
- [11:02]
B
Thanks.
- [11:03]
A
They're like, so three dimensional. And he is. He is, as a character, just like, he's fascinating. He's fascinating.
- [11:09]
B
He's singular. He's strange. I mean, there's this one exchange with him. I think it's in the book where he was talking about how he's not weird. He's not weird as a person. Yeah. And I was like, okay, well, are you. Would you say you're unusual and he's. Okay, yeah, I'm unusual, but I'm not weird. I'm the most. Not weird person.
- [11:27]
A
I guess there's a connotation more unusual. You could be like the cooler.
- [11:31]
B
Unusual is more neutral.
- [11:32]
A
Yeah.
- [11:32]
B
Then weird is more of an accusation.
- [11:34]
A
I think you're from New Jersey. You know the thing. Your book is like, kind of like a shoebox of, like, photographs. Right. They're like just little pictures. I feel like. Is that accurate?
- [11:44]
B
Expressionist.
- [11:44]
A
Yeah.
- [11:45]
B
Yeah.
- [11:45]
A
It's not like Linden as much as, like, kind of images in different times.
- [11:50]
B
Yeah. I was trying to just sort of replicate the experience of the last 10 years. And with my proximity as this official witness to Trump's rise, what.
- [12:02]
A
It feels like you were remarkably successful, remarkably young. Right.
- [12:07]
B
And unsuccessful.
- [12:08]
A
No. I mean, you were kind of in the press pool in the west wing at what, 22, 23, something like that. Was that stressful at any point, would you just take it in stride?
- [12:20]
B
It was just. It's easy when you have a mission. Like when you. I think there's like a. The stakes of politics are inherent when you're covering it. You never have to wonder if what you're doing matters, because it obviously does. And that's like a great gift in some ways. Right. Because I think.
- [12:38]
A
I think you grew up fast. It feels. It seems like you became an adult quickly.
- [12:43]
B
Well, but he was. It was his first time there as well. Right. But there was something small, and I felt like I understood something of his psychology. Because he grew up in Queens. Right. He grew up in Jamaica states. I grew up in New Jersey.
- [12:55]
A
Outerborough trash when you're on the periphery.
- [12:57]
B
When you're Outerborough trash when you're on the periphery.
- [13:00]
A
Real estate, too, is disgusting.
- [13:02]
B
You're always looking at the center at Manhattan. And his whole life seemed to be about getting there and then ascending to whatever midtown heights he wanted to ascend.
- [13:13]
A
Honestly, good for him.
- [13:16]
B
But it's the personality of a striver in him. Right. And, like, this kind of resentment that he always had about Manhattan, it was interesting to watch it transported to politics.
- [13:27]
A
One thing I thought was an interesting thing from the book is that you associated New York City, like, from a very young age with Trump. Did you feel like you knew him kind of like you'd known him for a while or something?
- [13:39]
B
Well, he was just like this great tabloid villain of my childhood. Right. And then the Apprentice premiered when I think I was in, like, the third or fourth grade. He was always in the papers that my. My father always brought home, the New York Post and the Daily News.
- [13:52]
A
He's an intellectual.
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B
I mean, he worked for the sanitation department in New York. And I just was used to seeing him every place, and I don't remember a time when I was not aware of him. Right.
- [14:04]
A
Like, he's in Home Alone, too.
- [14:06]
B
He's in Home Alone, too. And there's this scene in the book where I just. I remember being in my dad's truck on Central Park South.
- [14:13]
A
I have an exit for you.
- [14:14]
B
And him pointing out that Donald Trump's town car was in front of us. And I was, like, six years old, I think, and I knew exactly who he was. I thought he was scary because he was the beauty pageant guy, and I thought beauty pageants were scary.
- [14:27]
A
Here's an interesting thing, and this is related to you. It's the toughest interview.
- [14:30]
B
Who, Trump?
- [14:31]
A
Yeah. You possessing that ability just. It's the hardest difficulty setting and being able to do that from a very young age. Like, did you feel like you became an adult early?
- [14:43]
B
I guess. You know, I was like, child of alcoholics. It's like a pretty typical.
- [14:47]
A
You have to raise them response.
- [14:49]
B
Yeah. Not successfully, but it's. It's a pretty typical response to, like, try really hard to appear collected, you know?
- [15:00]
A
Yeah. Could you just like, tell us more about how you just instantly knew how to approach that subject?
- [15:05]
B
I didn't. He's really. He's a domineering force. I mean, he's sort of like the great force around which we're all oriented. Right. In some sense in the culture for the last 10 years, increasingly. So you have to be very, like, active in an interview with him. You have to. It's like dealing with a wild animal, you know, like. So you have to just. He's sort of assessing in real time, like, what he thinks that you want or what you need. Yeah. And so he's trying to manipulate you.
- [15:32]
A
How do you. How do you, like, disarm that?
- [15:35]
B
You don't really. You just have to, like, meet him on his level and depending. I mean, sometimes he's just in a bad mood. But if you go in there thinking, I would die, that you're gonna. No, he's not. He's not scary.
- [15:47]
A
Do you think Trump would like me?
- [15:49]
B
Do I think he would like you? I don't.
- [15:52]
A
I mean, I'm not politically. I don't like him, what he's doing. But you want Trump to like you.
- [15:57]
B
You want him to like it.
- [15:58]
A
If Trump was like. Like the way he likes Zoron.
- [16:01]
B
Well, but he.
- [16:01]
A
I mean, he was just, like, in love with. He was like, oh, my Zoron. Don't ask that question. That fucking was.
- [16:06]
B
That was incredible. But I thought it was sort of like. It was a perfect example of how he just. He orients himself around power, too. He responds to energy, and he's. He's sort of like just this wild animal who synthesizes other people's energy. And he's very. For someone who's so egocentric and so unconcerned with others, he's really interested in others, and he's really sensitive to kind of what other people are putting down. He is not sensitive in the sense that he has any empathy. Right. But sensitive, like, figuring out someone. Yeah, he feels. I mean, it's like, why he has to do the rallies and why, like, during COVID for instance, when he couldn't do the rallies, it contributed to, like, what was described to me by people close to him as sort of his version of depression. And it was.
- [16:55]
A
He missed the shows.
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B
Well, it was like he was able to. Yeah, he missed the shows. And he kind of. He's energized by other people's energy. He's the type of extrovert who just, you know, he requires other people's energy. He feeds off of it in a kind of vampiric way.
- [17:12]
A
I mean, you've probably been to a Trump rally. Right. I mean, they have so much fun at that. They love it. Do the people there, like.
- [17:20]
B
No, not really. It's interesting.
- [17:21]
A
It's better than the Democrat ones.
- [17:24]
B
Well, they don't try to. They seldom try to replicate anything like that. Right. So that made it hard in, like, 2016, for instance, to really know how much value took place in the Trump rallies. Right. Especially when it wasn't being reflected in polling, because it's like, she's not trying. Hillary Clinton's not trying to host an event at a monster truck arena. So there's nothing really to compare it to.
- [17:46]
A
They would just wheel out, like, Oprah and be like, wave.
- [17:50]
B
I also just think part of it's just kind of about loneliness and boomer loneliness, where it's like, there's just. He's. The show is rolling through town, and maybe you're in, like, Biloxi, Mississippi or something, or somewhere in Oklahoma. And like, you. There are not that many, I think, opportunities to hang out in tailgate and listen to Elton John and Stones and Paparati and. And YMCA and chill with. It's funny. For a long time, the song at the, like, end of those rallies was not. The YMCA was you can't always get what you want, which I thought was very funny.
- [18:24]
A
When he came out on election night, right? Didn't he come out to the. I remember. I remember it was the, like, 2016. Did he come out 21, you mean? Yeah. So you can't always get what you want.
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B
No.
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A
And I remember his fat body in silhouette, like.
- [18:37]
B
Yeah, like a Hitchcock.
- [18:39]
A
I mean, it was one of the most insane things I've ever seen in my entire life.
- [18:42]
B
But I talked to him about this, and it's in the book where I. That night when he came out, we were in Midtown, I think, at like, the Hilton or something. And he looked. There's this scene in the movie the Candidate with Robert Redford that I think is about Jerry Brown, but he. He wins. And he has this dumbfounded. He just looks. I remember, terrified, right? And he says to his aide, what do we do now? And he looks really scared. And then the crowd sort of comes between them while he looks helplessly. And I brought this up to Trump, and I was like, oh, you reminded me of Redford. And he was like. He got very, like.
- [19:18]
A
He was a fellow blonde.
- [19:19]
B
He was thrilled to hear that I reminded him of Redford. And I was like, you looked scared. And he went, like, kind of sank back into.
- [19:26]
A
He liked that you were blonde. You think?
- [19:27]
B
No, no, I Was telling him that.
- [19:29]
A
But was that part of the bond?
- [19:31]
B
The bond? Because some. I mean, more.
- [19:35]
A
It's like when I see another Jew.
- [19:36]
B
I'm like, we're both blonde.
- [19:38]
A
Yeah, he likes it. He's like, oh, there's another blonde person here.
- [19:42]
B
It seemed more about New York. Like, I think he really missed New York when he was in the White House and felt sort of, you know, like he was in an alien space.
- [19:52]
A
I made a joke to Zoron where I was like, do you think the hang is so bad that, like, a cool guy came to hang out with him and then he. He, like, just kind of now seems like that's kind of a real thing?
- [20:02]
B
I think so. And I think he's, like, homesick for New York and all that.
- [20:04]
A
Does he have no friends?
- [20:06]
B
I don't think he has friends in the manner that, like, you might think of a friend. I think there. There are people that he. He doesn't like, hang really, you know?
- [20:16]
A
Yeah. Well, it's.
- [20:17]
B
Cause he spends a lot of time on the phone. He's like. It's a very kind of similar guy. You guys are very similar. I was thinking that.
- [20:26]
A
Yes.
- [20:26]
B
Do you want to call him?
- [20:28]
A
No, Koovie.
- [20:29]
B
I don't care.
- [20:32]
A
I do this joke every episode. I. If this is the first one that actually happens. Oliv.
- [20:38]
B
Olivia, you should call him.
- [20:40]
A
What can you do?
- [20:41]
B
I don't want to call him.
- [20:42]
A
I don't call him. He's not going to pick up from me. Does he pick up? Oh, you said in the book he picks up every call. Get my phone. Get my phone right now. This is amazing. No, we're. It's in the. Oh, my God. God. Does he pick up every call?
- [20:55]
B
I mean, I. In my experience.
- [20:58]
A
What if he's like. Hello, Adam? Oh, my God.
- [21:04]
B
Hi. Nate.
- [21:08]
A
Nate.
- [21:08]
B
May I please have my phone?
- [21:10]
A
Wait, you want to say. You want to just say. You want to say the number? So our listeners could also give him a call?
- [21:15]
B
No.
- [21:15]
A
Well, that's.
- [21:16]
B
Yeah, I don't want. Oh, I don't really want to give you his number. I feel like that's not responsible.
- [21:20]
A
Okay, so I'll call from your number.
- [21:21]
B
I have my phone.
- [21:22]
A
Where is it?
- [21:23]
B
Oh, it's there. It's behind you, I think.
- [21:24]
A
So you also have.
- [21:25]
B
No, I don't want to call from my phone. I want to talk.
- [21:27]
A
I'm not gonna prank call Trump when I'm just hanging out with my voice.
- [21:30]
B
Actually, I don't even care. Yeah, you can have.
- [21:31]
A
Is this cool? This is good. This is awesome. Caleb, why don't you look more excited? I need you guys. This is the best thing ever. This is the best day of my entire life. Whoa, dude. Oh, no. You have pink.
- [21:43]
B
What?
- [21:44]
A
Nothing.
- [21:45]
B
All right. Oh, Jesus.
- [21:46]
A
I have orange, bro. What do I say to Trump?
- [21:49]
B
Hello? Hi, Yi Yai.
- [21:50]
A
No, I should give him a piece of my mind after all this.
- [21:55]
B
All right. Wait. Can I have your phone?
- [21:57]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [21:59]
B
Can you unlock it?
- [22:00]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah. Here.
- [22:04]
B
Let's see.
- [22:05]
A
Do you think maybe he saw the Zordon episode? He might not. Should I ask him that?
- [22:09]
B
I don't know.
- [22:09]
A
Is it ringing?
- [22:10]
B
No. I can call yet. I don't know. Your phone's about to die, by the way.
- [22:13]
A
That's okay. That'd be. I'm mad at you. You have.
- [22:17]
B
You're on 4%. You are on 4%.
- [22:20]
A
That's enough for a Trump. Okay. Wow. No, that's not his actual number. That's the number he got. I don't know what to say. Can I leave a message?
- [22:38]
B
Yeah.
- [22:39]
A
Okay.
- [22:40]
B
Probably go back. Your call has been forwarded to voicemail.
- [22:51]
A
Classic. Here.
- [22:51]
B
The person you're trying to reach is not available. At the tone, please record your message. When you have finished recording, you may hang up.
- [22:58]
A
Hello, Mr. President, it's Adam Freeland. I'm a talk show host in New York City. I would love to extend an invitation for you to come on the show. I just had Zoram Ondani, who I know you're quite fond of, and he's a kind of intellectual, style, innovative Dick Cavett talk show. We also had Steiny, who I think you're friends with as well, from the Nelson boys. All right, Thanks a lot, Mr. President. It's a great honor, and I hope you're having a good day. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm so good. Do you think it was okay? Do you think it was good? I dropped Steiny. I also dropped Steiny. He might know that. Why the hell was Trump on fucking this Dynes podcast anyway? Okay, so I guess, like, I feel like I'm flying. Did you. Did you. When did you first want to be a writer?
- [23:56]
B
You know, I always wrote. I always. I was always writing when I was a kid, but I loved comedy.
- [24:04]
A
You did?
- [24:05]
B
Like, what I loved. Carlin, Pryor, Chappelle, Jeanine Grofalo, Casey calls back.
- [24:14]
A
And your book is inspired by the Divine Comedy?
- [24:18]
B
It's sort of in the structure a little bit.
- [24:21]
A
Were you always a big John Waters fan?
- [24:27]
B
I do love John Waters.
- [24:28]
A
You guys just wake up a little bit. Guys, this Is the last interview.
- [24:31]
B
I love John Waters.
- [24:32]
A
This is the last interview of the year. This is the last interview, guys. This is my six in two weeks. Olivia's Olivia. Let's make her feel like the biggest star. You are the biggest star in the world. You're our favorite. This is the best interview I've ever done. You always like comedy. Do you write comedy?
- [24:48]
B
The first pieces I wrote were, like, satire. Do you have any somewhere, really?
- [24:53]
A
Like, what do you remember?
- [24:55]
B
Like, what? Yeah, like, I wrote. I got the first letter to the editor that I was the subject of. I was writing for an alt weekly in New Jersey, and they published this letter to the editor that was like, what does Olivia do for America? And I was really upset because I was like, I write here. Like, why are you publishing hate mail against me? I didn't realize how it worked, but it was. I wrote some really terrible thing. It was about the border wall, and it was like, if Republicans are so serious about the border wall, they should send, like, the Boy Scouts to go form a human fence.
- [25:32]
A
Why?
- [25:32]
B
I don't know. It was like, 17.
- [25:36]
A
You were 17 with the border wall.
- [25:39]
B
We've all. I mean, we've had the border wall.
- [25:41]
A
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I guess so. I associated with Trump. Yeah.
- [25:44]
B
I mean, it's early 1900s. Really. It's like a USDA.
- [25:47]
A
How could I forget?
- [25:48]
B
Yeah, yeah. How could you forget? Yeah. This defining feature of the country. But. And then, you know, the border wall. The border wall itself didn't really become, like, the point of immigration debates on the left. And Right. Until the Obama administration before that, it was really about, like, it wasn't so much about the interior of the country. Like, well, it was a bipartisan issue to fund the border wall. Right. 2006, like, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, all sorts of Democrats funded. Voted to fund the border wall construction. So it was not, like this super contested issue for a long time.
- [26:25]
A
Should I call Trump back? Maybe I forgot. I feel like I'm the. I'm just thinking about this. I'm just thinking about this call.
- [26:32]
B
Yeah.
- [26:32]
A
How's he. You just, like. You just know that. Here's the thing that's fascinating is that you write critically. Right. And you still maintain his trust. He doesn't read well. He hates the media.
- [26:45]
B
Well, he's been mean to me. Like, he's.
- [26:47]
A
What's the meanest thing he said to you?
- [26:48]
B
He said I was dumb as rocks. He said I was a little derivative. Yeah, I thought that was funny. He said I was a whack job.
- [26:57]
A
A whack job. Yeah, it was pretty funny.
- [26:59]
B
Pretty good. Yeah. He called me.
- [27:02]
A
That's so Trump to say whack job.
- [27:03]
B
Yeah.
- [27:04]
A
Did he ever call you a dog? Cause he always calls women dogs.
- [27:07]
B
He also says people have choked like a dog. Like Mitt Romney choked like a dog.
- [27:12]
A
Like a dog.
- [27:12]
B
He hates animals.
- [27:13]
A
Yeah.
- [27:14]
B
And so when he talks, when he compares people to animals, it's usually just to dehumanize them some way, right?
- [27:20]
A
To dog, human, to dog them. Well, Baghdadi, right. When he killed that terrorist, he said he died like a dog, Right.
- [27:30]
B
Which is what. I don't know what that means exactly. To die like a dog.
- [27:33]
A
Yeah. What does that mean at all?
- [27:35]
B
I don't know.
- [27:37]
A
Do you remember what spurned his anger at you?
- [27:41]
B
Sometimes it's a question he doesn't like, or if he. He's failing in his efforts to sort of manipulate you in real time. He gets agitated.
- [27:50]
A
Who does he manipulate? Who's like.
- [27:52]
B
He's very, like. He's charming, right. And so. And he's like a good hang in a way, like, you can talk to. He wants to talk about. He likes to gossip. He loves talking about.
- [28:03]
A
I got a good gossip for him. I should call him back. Yeah.
- [28:05]
B
What's the gossip?
- [28:06]
A
I'm like. I can't say. I'm celebrity.
- [28:09]
B
You want to talk to him in private?
- [28:11]
A
Yeah, I heard that. I just heard that Marilyn Manson got one of his ribs removed.
- [28:15]
B
Oh, yeah. Was that before or after the Richard Gere thing?
- [28:19]
A
I heard that Richard Gere. Well, the first one was Rod Stewart was OD'd, and then he got his stomach pumped and there was two liters of semen in it, which is so much cum. I mean, it's like an insane amount of cum. Like, take us through his charm a little bit more because I think it's just fascinating to hear.
- [28:36]
B
I mean, he's just. He's a performer, right? Like, and so he's always trying to get people to like him. He wants to be liked. I mean, we all want to be liked, right? But with him, it's amplified and even, like, I think the defining trait of a politician, and I think I write something about this in the book, it's just like a politician is a man who wants to be loved more than other men, and through his pursuit reveals why he cannot love himself. Right? And all politicians really want to be loved. But with Trump, it's like the added sort of Elvis quality to him, right? Or Liberace quality. The Vegas in him, if you will.
- [29:11]
A
Well, he's a television Star, too. He's in show business. Yeah, he's way more that than, like, people think. He's like Goldman Sachs. He's, like, from New York City real estate, and he kind of.
- [29:20]
B
And not even really. It's like a marketing exercise. And, like, he wanted to be in show business. He wanted to be in the movie business. He wanted to go to film school. And I feel like the great lesson. One of the great lessons of the 20th century is if someone wants to be an artist, you have to let them because the consequences are dire.
- [29:36]
A
Oh, okay. Because of. Yeah, because of Hitler. Oh, Hitler. I wasn't thinking of that.
- [29:42]
B
Who were you thinking of?
- [29:43]
A
I was thinking of George Bush.
- [29:45]
B
Oh, also that. Yeah.
- [29:46]
A
Have we let him paint his paintings? The early ones are good.
- [29:50]
B
I prefer his earlier work.
- [29:51]
A
Yeah. The naive ones. Yeah. Where he's trying to wash off his sins.
- [29:54]
B
Yeah.
- [29:55]
A
He's just haunted by the ghosts of the dead. Iraqi one million.
- [29:59]
B
Whatever.
- [30:00]
A
You kind of. Your first arrival was you were an Internet with a friend of the show. I would say best friend. Would you guys say best friend of the show? Best friend of the show. Anthony Weiner's campaign. And then you left the campaign, you wrote it became a front page story. Is that Trump? No. Gmail. Okay, sorry. I'm so nervous. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And then the New York Daily News. Were you recruited from there to, like, become a journalist? Or did it feel like, oh, now I'm in the game? Or like, when did it dawn on you that you were like, I'm going to be a journalist?
- [30:35]
B
Like, you know, I was writing for this all weekly when I was a teenager in New Jersey, and I ran out of opinions really quickly because I didn't know anything, you know, garbage weekly. Yeah.
- [30:47]
A
And then Sanitation News. Yeah.
- [30:49]
B
And then when I started, like, performing acts of journalism, and I realized that you could do that, that you could just ask anyone anything, and that there's a sort of, like, mechanism for my curiosity and, like, a way to utilize that, and it was justified because it's in the public interest. Like, that was fascinating to me. And I was. I was interviewing. I think it was Rush Holt. He was a congressman and rocket scientist from New Jersey. He was running for the Senate in a special election to fill the seat vacated by the death of Frank Lautenberg. And I had all these questions written out, and I was, like, really nervous. And then we started talking, and I just. I threw the questions out because I realized, like, you have to. If you're in the conversation, you don't need to be nervous. You don't need. Right.
- [31:40]
A
No, I just. I don't know. Is there an overlap between, like having a theatrical training early on and like, is there a performance aspect of journalism?
- [31:48]
B
Maybe? I mean, well, certainly, like going on TV and doing stuff like that. Yeah, probably.
- [31:52]
A
Yeah.
- [31:52]
B
And understanding Trump. I think it was helpful too.
- [31:55]
A
Yeah. Because he's also a razzle dazzle showman.
- [31:58]
B
Yeah. I mean, there's someone like a longtime aide of his in American Canto says, you know, in another era, if he was better looking, he probably would have loved to have been like a Cary Grant or something like that.
- [32:10]
A
I remember you say that. But also, he is way hot. He's one of the hottest.
- [32:14]
B
You think he's hot? Yeah.
- [32:15]
A
Vs. He hasn't called. Okay, that was the bank. I ran out of money. Guys, you're all fired. Today's episode is sponsored by Incogni. Incogni helps you wipe your data from the Internet and protect your privacy. Guys, I use this product. It's a excellent product because my data is everywhere. I've been spreading data all over the Internet since I was, what, the AOL days? You know? But it's time to get clean with Incogni. Thousands of companies are collecting and trading your personal data without you knowing it. You have the right to request data brokers to delete the information they have about you. It would take years to do this manually. Incogni does the messy work for you. Incogni reaches out to data brokers on your behalf, requesting your personal data removal and dealing with their objections. What data companies hold most often is your full name, email, home address, gender, phone number, education, relatives, ssn, employment history and shopping habits. Oh, God. 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Again, that's Lucy Co. And use code TAFS to get 20% off. And here comes the fine print. Lucy products are only for adults of legal age and every order is age verified. Warning. This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Guys, that's the first ad I've ever read straight through. I'm Martha Stewart and I believe the best gifts are not only beautiful, but useful every single day. And Lenox has brought timeless beauty and lasting quality to our tables for generations. And their Lenox Spice Village is the perfect holiday gift for someone you love or for yourself. Spice Village transforms everyday spices into inspired memories filled with warmth and joy all year long. Give a gift that lasts beyond the holidays. Discover the collection@lenox.com SpiceVillage. You were first place on the Chrissy campaign with the Daily Beast. Were you at those primaries in 2016? Because that was the best show of all time.
- [41:37]
B
The 2016 primary.
- [41:39]
A
Yeah, well, the debates. Yeah, I guess. Like, what was it like? Just seeing the RNC crumbling because like he was a, he was a virus on the system. Right. They kept trying to, like, there was another. There was one week where like lying Ted would try to take him down. And one week where they were like, marco, you got to do it this week. And he was just, you just saw this guy like, like Agent Smith. He was like growing in Power, like, it's like, it's a moment of American history that you had to, like, firsthand account of.
- [42:07]
B
Like, I mean, there was, in some sense, you could look at it like there was a real democratic process on the right that year. Whereas I think there are a lot of people who, for good reason, feel that there wasn't on the Democratic side. Right. That Bernie Sanders maybe would have been the nominee had the party not put its thumb on the scale.
- [42:28]
A
I think she persisted, actually.
- [42:31]
B
Nevertheless. But I Trump, it was like nobody. There were no experts available to help contextualize what was happening. Because I remember it was my first election year that I was covering, and I would talk to, I don't know, a political scientist or somebody to try and help me understand it, and they would tell me something like, oh, well, people lie to pollsters or people get serious once it really becomes time to vote. And I would go on television and say this. And I talked to so and so who said this. And as it turned out, there were no experts. Like, there are no. Political science is a contradiction in terms. And, like, politics is extraordinarily emotional, and American politics and domestic politics is extraordinarily emotional. And he was manipulating that successfully.
- [43:20]
A
I mean, he knew how to do tv.
- [43:21]
B
Have you ever gone back and rewatched some of those debates?
- [43:24]
A
Yeah, they're the best. I watch all of them.
- [43:25]
B
You can't. You. Your eyes just go to his center, Right. Like, he is the point, and they're all. They look ridiculous.
- [43:33]
A
You remember they were telling the crowds not to cheer, and they just couldn't help. They were like, ah, yeah, right. Like, when did it dawn on you that this, like, this could be the President of the United States?
- [43:43]
B
I remember I had. You know, it was hard because I was mostly covering him. So it's not like I was at every Hillary Clinton event or, you know, on the trail with her constantly. And I was mostly just trying to understand his supporters and also just trying to understand the kind of machinations of our election system for the first time.
- [44:03]
A
Formally, professionally, at 22. 21.
- [44:09]
B
I think I was 22.
- [44:10]
A
Yeah.
- [44:10]
B
Yeah. Right. Mm. Yeah. And so I had a feeling, but, like, I remember discussing it with them to friends of mine, that we all had feelings that he would win, but you can't exactly, like, go report. Like, according to my female intuition, he's gonna win. There was no way to, you know, to corroborate that with any data.
- [44:36]
A
Yeah.
- [44:37]
B
So, yeah, it was also hard to, like, you know, it was hard to know, like, how much value do you put on the sides of his credit? Are they just there because they're curious and it's kind of like the circus is rolling down and it's something to do, or are they there because it's an actual expression of how they're gonna vote? And it's not as though he won the popular vote. Right, Right.
- [44:57]
A
It was razor thin.
- [44:58]
B
Yeah. So in the end, it's like this was this marginal victory. And I don't. I still don't really know how much. When you look back at just like the visuals of it, Right. Like Hillary Clinton in like a half full high school auditorium versus Donald Trump selling out some big stadium that wasn't really a reflection of what ended up happening. Right, right.
- [45:22]
A
People were just like, ugh, we'll vote for her. Yeah, fine, I'll vote for Hillary. I'm not gonna go to the thing, though. I'm not gonna go to the high school and stand there and listen to her, but I'll vote for her. Fine.
- [45:32]
B
Well, it's not like the types of people who usually show up to political events are unusual. They're unusually engaged, or they are unusually not busy in the middle of a workday. So you don't really get a great sense of what a quote, unquote, average voter thinks by going to, I don't know, a rally in Des Moines or Ames or something.
- [45:55]
A
There's a really funny thing I pulled from the book. In the Oval Office, you're handed a page with 58 bullet points typed in large font, and at the top, underlined in bold, all caps, it said, trump administration accomplishments. Yeah. Do you still have that piece of paper?
- [46:13]
B
Do I? I don't know.
- [46:16]
A
My impression of that first term was like, he was just like you, kind of what you illustrated earlier was like, he was the loneliest man in the world. Because it wasn't like, classy to work for Trump.
- [46:27]
B
It was a lot of people that hadn't been there before either. Right. And then there were sort of like, people who had been in politics, but probably would not have gotten the opportunity to work in a White House, because most people who work in politics, that's the goal. Right. And then you work in the White House for a few years and your stock rises and you can sort of, you can command much more in the private sector. It's like this totally cynical revolving door. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was, you know, there were a lot of.
- [47:00]
A
Was the food good? They let you hit the cafeteria or you had to go off campus.
- [47:06]
B
If you were, like, meeting with someone like, you could go with someone who worked there, but you can't. Like, in the White House, like, press briefing room, and behind it, where the reporters are, there was just, like, a vending machine.
- [47:20]
A
That's all you got. He has his own chef. That's not fair. If I was the president, I'd let all the reporters have the food so they write nice things about me.
- [47:31]
B
Right.
- [47:32]
A
President Adam gave us carnitas today. He's the coolest president ever.
- [47:37]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [47:38]
A
He let us watch. Did you ever watch a movie in the movie theater?
- [47:41]
B
No.
- [47:42]
A
President Trump sucks. Dude, don't tell him I said that. T. Colby. No, it's my friend. Text me. Why did you write the book? As a blind item? Like, as a literary device, or was that just a choice, like a flourish?
- [47:59]
B
I only named. I named founding fathers, I named writers and I named publications, but I didn't name most other people. I used to.
- [48:11]
A
Me and the fellas, we've been having a blast trying to figure out who the people were. Yeah, I think I know who the politician is. It's George Santos. It is. It is George Santos. No, I guess you've written it over the last year. Yeah. So what was your. At the outset, what was the book attempting to do?
- [48:33]
B
It wasn't really attempting to do anything. I mean, I just was writing it, Right. And so I. In September of 2024, I had this, like, rapturous event in my life, right. And I fled New York. Fled New York. I fled.
- [48:53]
A
Why does that. Why do I talk? It's my last interview of the year, September 11th. I saw myself in the middle. I'm like. At the end, you're, like, kind of left. Like, there's no triumph at the end, right?
- [49:06]
B
There rarely is. But I was writing it, and I kind of fled New York and went to the west coast. And then the election was coming to a close, and, like, this story that I had wanted to see through of the election, I.
- [49:21]
A
Did you not watch?
- [49:22]
B
No, I watched, but I was watching from this different vantage point right from the edge of the country. And it was like, it was the first time in my life where I didn't have a job and I didn't have anything to really go hurry and do. And I was sort of still, for the first time in ten years, and I was able to synthesize the ten year period and, like, look back and try and make sense of what had happened in our national politics and to the character of the country, but also what had happened in my own life to my own character. And this Sort of this warping of reality. It seemed to me that amid Trump's rise to dominance, there's this sort of sprawl of this distortion field that he is the center, and in the heat around him, everything warped. And I was in that center for a long time, and it worked for me as well. And that seemed, like, important and something that I should really try to understand.
- [50:28]
A
Do you feel Didion's style being California? Writing a book?
- [50:31]
B
People? You know, I always felt like I was too Italian to understand her.
- [50:34]
A
Like, too Italian.
- [50:36]
B
Just, like, too Italian American to understand.
- [50:37]
A
You're getting marinara on the book to.
- [50:40]
B
Understand that sort of, like, detached WASP ethos.
- [50:43]
A
You know, I don't think it's nice to be mean to hip. Like, what. To hip. Like, what is. What's wrong with wanting peace?
- [50:49]
B
But anyway, I. But then I did understand it. Some people in my life were like, you can't be living out there in Malibu and not, you know, be reading.
- [51:00]
A
That, doing, like, Eat, Pray, Love.
- [51:02]
B
Well, no, then I read it, and I was like, okay, maybe I'm, like, finally sad enough to understand it.
- [51:07]
A
Why does it cause such a stir? I guess, like, in your estimation, my book? Yeah, and just, like, the. Why are you, like, in the middle of a fucking controversy?
- [51:15]
B
I mean, last year, when I was at New York Magazine, right, Like, I fucked up.
- [51:21]
A
You didn't disclose.
- [51:22]
B
Well, yeah, like, those ethics rules exist for a reason. They're good rules.
- [51:25]
A
Did you kill stories on behalf of Secretary Kennedy? No, that's been alleged.
- [51:29]
B
Yeah, a lot of things have been alleged.
- [51:31]
A
Yeah, I've heard a lot of things. So that's not true. Yeah. Okay.
- [51:36]
B
But I. Those rules are good, and there was a reason why people were really mad at me, and they were right to be.
- [51:44]
A
Regular folks are mad about journalistic ethics.
- [51:47]
B
But I don't care. It doesn't matter. Right. Like, it just matters that I did something wrong. And in that way, I hurt the whole industry. And, like, that's. I take that really seriously. This feels different, though. Like, this current cycle of just uncharitable. What do you think it is? I don't. You know, I think it's. I guess I kind of feel like it's not really my business.
- [52:11]
A
It's your business, your life and your career.
- [52:14]
B
Yeah, but I wrote this book. Book that, like, I think is valuable.
- [52:18]
A
Yeah, but people are hating on your. I mean, like, just as for your career, you're writing a book, and everyone's saying, fuck you. It's like, you want to sell a book to people, you know I wanted the book and everyone's crapping all over.
- [52:30]
B
You but I wanted the book to be like an honest expression about this 10 year period and about my own experience and I'm happy with it. And I also knew when I was working on it anytime it would sort of like intrude like how are people gonna react to this? I was pretty clear eyed about the fact that people might just say like get the fuck out of here.
- [52:50]
A
Are people reacting to the book or are they reacting to what's happening around?
- [52:53]
B
I think they're reacting more to the latter.
- [52:55]
A
So that's why I'm saying like it's. Obviously it has affected your abilities to get your book out there to people, right?
- [53:01]
B
Yeah, but I. That's alright. Like, you know, I just wasn't. I felt.
- [53:06]
A
You can't possibly feel like this is fine.
- [53:09]
B
Well, it's not going well, right?
- [53:10]
A
No, no, no, no, no. I'm not talking about the book. I'm talking about. I'm just talking about like the way that people are like. People are fucking like pissed off at you.
- [53:18]
B
But I could take it. Like I don't feel broken up about it. Yeah, I feel, I think it's interesting.
- [53:23]
A
Well, here's the other.
- [53:24]
B
I'm more curious about it than. I am devastated by it.
- [53:27]
A
Your ex partner. I read the subsectly. I really don't care about journalism like this. I don't care. I watch sports, I read his thing.
- [53:37]
B
I didn't.
- [53:39]
A
And first of all I don't understand like I'll say this for me, this is my opinion. Okay, but it's like a little bit like bitch ass to serialize details about your a past relationship in a breakup for behind a paywall on your like writing a journal website. I mean like just for money to talk about like painful real life experiences. I think it's a little bit, it's a little bit. I don't know. No one's really having that reaction to him. I think everyone seems to be mad at you and then the third party seems to be a sitting member of the federal, of the administration. And to me I'm an outsider, right. So I've just learned about this the last fucking four days.
- [54:21]
B
Yeah, I feel like an outsider.
- [54:23]
A
It's not distributed equally, right?
- [54:26]
B
No, I mean I don't write about that person much. In the book I referenced, you mentioned but like I forgot him, you know, and I didn't want to remember.
- [54:33]
A
And so this is playing out in public.
- [54:35]
B
It's really unfortunate. And I also just think it's like. I mean, this is this like harassment campaign that's been going on for like 16, 17 months. Right. It started when I. When during the scandal in 2024. And it continued. And now it's like this bad faith effort, I think, to present.
- [54:56]
A
Is it sexist?
- [54:58]
B
Among other things, I think it's harassment. I think it's abusive. Like, I think as someone I met.
- [55:02]
A
When I put the target on your.
- [55:03]
B
Back, it's someone that I met when I was 19 years old, right. And was with for a really long time. And it's just like engaging the public and the rest of the world in this. Like, when I left that relationship, I left this ability abusive dynamic. Right. And it seems like that person is still existing within it. And if that person can't like control my life from within my life, then they'll try to control it from the outside. And it was all a way of just like stepping on the book. Right. And like writing over the book that I wrote before anyone had a chance to read that book. Right. It started before the book came out.
- [55:42]
A
There's that. But then there's also.
- [55:43]
B
And also just providing a tell all that I didn't write.
- [55:45]
A
And if indeed I'm taking you in good faith, I mean, from what I read. Here's the thing that I'm going to ask you directly about, because I don't understand why no one even cares. Right. The most absurd allegation that's levied is that there was a recording that was surreptitiously made by an illustrator in New York magazine. It included the President talking about details related to the Butler, Pennsylvania assassination attempt that have been hidden from public knowledge.
- [56:12]
B
Yeah.
- [56:12]
A
And that you received a phone call from, from Secretary Kennedy while he's in Mexico on vacation and that you deleted that recording. Is that true?
- [56:21]
B
That's not true.
- [56:22]
A
It's not true. First of all, with all this crap coming out, no one's talking about that. Even, even the people that are taking his words like, as gospel and like, listen, I'm, I'm. I'm talking to you right now. I'm taking you in good faith. But like, no one even cares about that one part, which is like, what it was. An assassination attempt.
- [56:40]
B
Yeah.
- [56:42]
A
So where, so is this individual like just completely just freestyling on this shit?
- [56:47]
B
No, I mean, some of the stuff, it's like rooted in some fact. Right. And then, but then it's like contorted in such a way that it, like it's unrecognizable and that's what makes it hard to respond to? Right? Because it's. I can't say every single thing that this person said is false. Some of it is like, you know, when you get down to it, there's some truth there, but it's not. It's like there's.
- [57:08]
A
Why would you pursue defamation claims? I mean, this is like I don't want to.
- [57:12]
B
Because it's like I don't want to be involved in what this is.
- [57:14]
A
If indeed this is not true. Saying that you fucking like covered up something related to an assassination attempt is egregious and it kill it's career ending beyond your failure to disclose your relationship with.
- [57:31]
B
I mean, but the things that this person has written are not publishable by the standards of any actual news organization. Right. It just would not meet the standard.
- [57:40]
A
But that is def. He's defaming you in public.
- [57:42]
B
Definitely.
- [57:43]
A
Even if it's on the Internet. Right.
- [57:44]
B
But from my point of view, it's like, okay, best case scenario, what I spend several years and probably like seven figures to get a substack retracted and some kind of forced apology. That person clear your name. And I was with that person for 12 years. Like, I don't want to spend any more of my time.
- [58:01]
A
So you make a fucking Jewish guy do it for you in the court. I mean, it's your name and you have. I mean, if indeed, this is like, if indeed you weren't killing stories on behalf of a politician that you were covering and if indeed like you did like delete evidence related to a presidential assassination attempt, you got to clear your name. I mean, I would see no other, no other course of action.
- [58:23]
B
My point of view is like, I don't feel like the onus should be on me to answer for this person's allegations. You know, the book is not about this person.
- [58:32]
A
I'm not even talking about the book. I'm talking about the way people are thinking about you right now.
- [58:36]
B
But this is about the book. The whole thing is designed to write over this book that I wrote. And I don't want to attack that person. Like I feel sorry for them and like it freaks me out and I think it's like disturbing and I hope that they move on. I think the problem was that it was, you know, situation where like I was really, really young when I got involved with this person and I think that they became accustomed to like violating my privacy, my space, etc. And I left, you know, and like I didn't leave in a great way, obviously. Right. Like, like I don't view this person as credible. I think this is obviously this like, vengeance campaign, right? Designed to inflict harm on me.
- [59:16]
A
It's related to a. The president, someone shooting him.
- [59:20]
B
But there are.
- [59:21]
A
That's like, it's like James Bond style allegations.
- [59:24]
B
This is like an eight. What is it, eight part series.
- [59:27]
A
It's five. And you're acting like you don't know. But you read all.
- [59:29]
B
No, I haven't read any of you.
- [59:30]
A
You're also a better writer than him too. He's probably.
- [59:32]
B
Thank you. But I haven't read any.
- [59:33]
A
You know, you're a better writer the whole time. Just don't date another journalist.
- [59:37]
B
A very different type of writing. That's part of like, what was so weird.
- [59:41]
A
Like you're being nice to him though.
- [59:43]
B
I've always been being nice about him. Like, I don't. I'm not, I've never been in. I'm not in a feud, you know. This person is trying very hard and succeeding, frankly in assassinating my character. And like, that's a choice. And I made a different choice. I have to like part of getting through this period of like being publicly shamed over the last 16 months, right. I had like rules for myself of how I would, how I would deal with things. And the first rule is just I would never use anyone else as a human shield. You know, I would never try to like wriggle out of culpability by harming anyone else. I would, like, I had to remember anything that was fake is probably ephemeral. Right. That time, if I sort of didn't waste the opportunity of this crisis in my life, this fuck up the opportunity to like proceed better and become better, then anything fake wouldn't stick around. Right. Like, that's my belief about it.
- [60:46]
A
Yeah.
- [60:47]
B
And so I wasn't like terribly concerned with that stuff. Like, I know it's not true and like, you know, I have my lawyer respond when appropriate, but like, oh, so you got one. Yeah.
- [60:56]
A
Thank God you have one. That's all I'm asking you if you have a guy.
- [61:00]
B
Yeah, he's amazing.
- [61:01]
A
Do you have a support system around you? Do you have like a. Do you have good friends that like, are there for you as well?
- [61:07]
B
This is not at risk of shattering me.
- [61:10]
A
Yeah.
- [61:11]
B
You know, it's just not. I think it's unfortunate, but I think it's very interesting. But the response to this also is in the book, right? Like, I write about what I did wrong in my book. I write in American Canto about the truth of that affair, right. I write of things that don't make me look good. I didn't think anything would redeem me, and I wasn't trying to do that.
- [61:29]
A
You said you lied, but I assumed, like, it was. It was kind of vague. You said, you said I committed ethics violation. And you also said, and I lied for him. Right?
- [61:38]
B
Yeah, you did lie for him.
- [61:40]
A
But it was. Yeah, right. It was with Lizzo. It was with your part.
- [61:47]
B
But I, you know, the spin that he and I agreed on was like, that it was a flirtation, nothing more. Right. And that was. You know what? It's been the only thing that I've been surprised by because I knew, like, when I poked my head up from being in this sort of isolation that I might be met by, like, some madman charging at me with an axe. Right. Like, I figured that people weren't going to be normal in general about me writing a book, but I didn't know that other people would participate in that harassment or other institutions would participate in the harassment or in my violations of privacy or in my being slandered or just character assassination. That was a surprise to me, but it's been interesting.
- [62:35]
A
Why has this not spurred a political scandal? It feels like it's all about you and your ex partner.
- [62:42]
B
Because my ex partner is trying to harm me.
- [62:44]
A
But it's not. But. Yes, but kind of like it seems like the political sex scandals are like, one of America's favorite things. Isn't that everything is so schizophrenic these days and there's just scandal, scandal, scandal, scandal. That no one.
- [62:57]
B
There was a scandal about it. There was a scandal about it a year ago.
- [63:00]
A
But did he face any blowback from it? The Honorable Reverend Doctor Secretary.
- [63:06]
B
I mean, it was before the election, right?
- [63:09]
A
Oh, he's a candidate or a surrogate for Trump.
- [63:12]
B
He, at that point that the scandal kind of sparked, he had dropped out of the presidential race and he had endorsed Donald Trump. Yeah.
- [63:19]
A
Do you buy all that crap he says about the, you know, the health stuff?
- [63:24]
B
No.
- [63:24]
A
You think it's dangerous?
- [63:25]
B
Yeah, yeah, some of it. Yeah. I mean, I also think that there are some good things that he's done, too. Right. Like, I think when it comes to processed foods, diets, food diets, pesticides, I thought the work that he did as an environmentalist was important. Suing Monsanto. Yeah, that's great. I think that's great. But when it comes to degrading trust in the medical profession, or when it comes to negatively affecting vaccination rates or sowing confusion about that stuff, or relying on people who are not credible or just not being transparent in the government.
- [64:04]
A
Dr. Umar.
- [64:05]
B
Not good. Right. And what, among things that we shared, I think was just like a broad skepticism, power. Fell in love, right?
- [64:14]
A
You fell in love with someone.
- [64:15]
B
Yeah, I just fell in love with someone. And in the wrong circumstances, in the wrong person. Right. And I had to write.
- [64:21]
A
How did you first feel like you've fallen in love?
- [64:24]
B
I write about it in the book.
- [64:26]
A
Yeah, but like, he's told you he loved you, you didn't say it back a couple times. Had it started before your profile of him?
- [64:37]
B
No. After.
- [64:37]
A
Because you kind of flamed his. You dunked on his ass in that. It was a critical profile.
- [64:42]
B
Yeah.
- [64:42]
A
Yeah, they were critical.
- [64:43]
B
He hated it.
- [64:44]
A
Yeah, he hated it.
- [64:45]
B
He really hated it.
- [64:45]
A
You are able to, like, write critically about subjects and then maintain kind of their trust in an interesting way.
- [64:52]
B
But don't you find, like, if you're critical of someone, but you're being honest about it, and it's not coming from. It's not in bad faith, you're not trying to inflict harm, you're just being honest that not. You know, oftentimes people are all right with that. No. You don't find that.
- [65:08]
A
No. No one likes to be criticized, even if it's legitimate. How did New York magazine find out about your relationship? Like, how was that? How did they tell you about it?
- [65:16]
B
They. The editor in chief confronted me in a meeting.
- [65:21]
A
Had someone leaked it to them or.
- [65:23]
B
Yeah, Kara Swisher had brought it to them. She later told the New York Times.
- [65:29]
A
About that, and she became aware of it from. You don't know or.
- [65:33]
B
I have my suspicions, I guess.
- [65:35]
A
So you didn't feel like you were, like, on a house of cards that could come.
- [65:39]
B
I mean, it just felt really besides the point, which is my mistake and one of the delusions I was operating under was that it didn't matter. Right? And it mattered. Everything matters so much, right? Every little thing that we do here matters. And so I think, to me, it seemed. And part of what I spent a lot of the last year thinking about was, like, you don't just wake up one day and make a big mistake, right? Like, if you're gonna make. If you're gonna fuck up in some rapturous way, it's probably gonna be preceded by, like, imperceptible errors in judgment and a lot of letting things slide with yourself. That sort of amounts to. To, like, a misconfigured worldview. Right. Or, like, amounts to a path before you that's like gone awry. And that was important for me to assess because a lot of people had told me, you know, when I was fired from New York magazine, a lot of people had said like, oh, like fuck it, just continue to cover the election. You should take this assignment or that assignment and you should just pretend that this didn't happen. You should be shameless. And it was like this expectation that I should or that I could assume the sort of shameless posture that animates so much of American life now and certainly animates the kind of powerful social strata in American life and that I couldn't do that.
- [67:05]
A
So are you saying you chose to remove yourself because of the, the kind of ethics violation or was it because I was fired? Everyone fucking hated you.
- [67:14]
B
Both, right? Both. Like I was fired. I also fled out to the west coast and I was really scared and I was like in hiding and I didn't want to be found. And I was scared of the person who's now writing those substack things. And I didn't really know, like everything had shifted completely in my life. Like it had been one way for a really long time and I didn't know what to do. And so I just. But it also just struck me that like personally, as an interior matter, it was like this big spiritual event and like my moral error was important. Like it was important that I take that seriously. And I became really grateful that it had happened because it felt like. I think I write in the book about how it felt like the hand of God had come and like swatted me off the path that I was on. And I became very grateful for that. That the only thing really lost was public standing and a job rather than something much more serious.
- [68:15]
A
These days in any industry, there's a tremendous amount of nepotism. You're a self made individual, you're from a working class background. If you are looking at losing that 10 years of your work product or that trajectory, do you. Can you continue to that trajectory or I feel like it's knocked off force.
- [68:36]
B
And it kind of on a different trajectory. Right. Like I, when, when that happened last year when I was fired and when I, you know, was writing the materials at first it became American Canto. Yeah, I was already on a different trajectory at that point. Right. And that was okay. And I was interested in that and I. And that was necessary for me to have the perspective required to write that book. Right. Like I couldn't. When you're really. I write about how something can become so familiar, you can become so close to something that it ceases to be familiar that it becomes.
- [69:12]
A
You're running for president.
- [69:14]
B
Yeah. I think you are. And how old do you have to be?
- [69:18]
A
35.
- [69:20]
B
When's the next one?
- [69:21]
A
20.
- [69:21]
B
20.
- [69:21]
A
Yeah. But you're 21.
- [69:23]
B
I would be able to do it. I'd be 35, I think.
- [69:26]
A
Oh, you're 32.
- [69:27]
B
Right.
- [69:27]
A
Jesus Christ.
- [69:28]
B
But, so, but my point was, it's like I was already on a different path and I was all right with that. Like, I was grateful to be on that other path and to be like interested and have the perspective to synthesize that 10 year period.
- [69:44]
A
So what's the path now?
- [69:46]
B
I mean, this book came out like a week ago.
- [69:48]
A
Yeah. Because where the book leaves you and where you're at right now. Sorry to be a Jewish mother and tell you what's going on, but like, you're. It isn't, it isn't a place of. That's like.
- [70:00]
B
But you're talking about career and you're talking about material things. I'm not though. Right. Like, this book is, to me, it was this spiritual, moral event.
- [70:11]
A
I understand. Yeah.
- [70:13]
B
And this book is a creative effort about in some sense, the spiritual process of understanding this ten year thing, understanding my fuck up, understanding where I fit and where the corrosion of my character fit within this broader story about the corrosion of the American character in this 10 year period. And to me it's like, I'm not so concerned with the. Like, nothing can be taken from you that didn't belong to you. Yeah, right. If some, like, nothing can be taken from you that wasn't handed to you unjustly to begin with. And there's no such thing as, like, justice in public narratives. There's such a thing as poetic justice in public narratives. But like, the only justice is knowing that you do not share the qualities that the people who have behaved unjustly towards you. Right. So I'm not so worried about all that. Like, I. I'm proud of American Canto. I think it's valuable. But I also was aware the whole time that maybe it wouldn't be considered valuable for like 10 or 30 years.
- [71:23]
A
But you feel as if you've like, proud of your work. That's what you're saying. Yeah. What I, what I'm seeing, and maybe I'm reading between the lines is like. Well, you think being so successful so young, like, kind of robbed you of an early adulthood, like, and that's why.
- [71:40]
B
I'm fucking up now.
- [71:42]
A
I don't know. I'm just Asking you maybe.
- [71:45]
B
Maybe you know the writer Annie Hamilton?
- [71:48]
A
I know Annie. Yeah. She's an actress.
- [71:50]
B
I think of her as. Right.
- [71:51]
A
But she's an actress, too.
- [71:52]
B
Yeah, she's an actress, too, and she's hilarious. I love her. But she said something really funny once. I can't remember who. It's like a piece or a tweet or something, but that. People always used to say that she was an old soul, and then at a certain point. Or that she was mature for her age, and then at a certain point, they stopped saying that. Probably something so bad.
- [72:11]
A
Do you think you have to catch up on, like, 24 now because you were chilling with Trump the whole time?
- [72:16]
B
No, I think I'm good on, like, fucking up for now.
- [72:18]
A
I don't know.
- [72:19]
B
Maybe.
- [72:19]
A
I don't know. What do you guys get up to? Zach? Yeah. What's, like, the vibe over there? Yeah, no, no, I mean, like. Like for what you do. Like, what. What kind of stuff do you do? Zach's in a band.
- [72:34]
B
Okay.
- [72:35]
A
What's that? He plays guitar. Nate, you should learn guitar. What are you gonna learn guitar?
- [72:42]
B
I really want to get my pilot's license.
- [72:44]
A
Oh, pilot's license?
- [72:45]
B
Yeah. Oh, that's my goal.
- [72:46]
A
That'd be cool. That'd be cool. Yeah.
- [72:48]
B
Yeah.
- [72:48]
A
Trump didn't call me back. Should I call him back again?
- [72:53]
B
You text him?
- [72:55]
A
I don't know. I'm just trying to, like. No, I'm not saying that's what you're fucking up now. Like, was it. I'm just saying for you as a person, it's like, you are busy, right? You were busy very young, right?
- [73:07]
B
Yeah, but I'm not. I don't know. I just feel. I guess.
- [73:11]
A
Do you have time now?
- [73:13]
B
I'm never bored because I'm interested.
- [73:15]
A
What kind of stuff do you use? California green juice, crystal.
- [73:21]
B
I don't drink. I don't like cold beverages.
- [73:23]
A
You don't like cold beverages? You drink hot water.
- [73:27]
B
Room temperature.
- [73:28]
A
Room temperature. Oh, me too.
- [73:29]
B
Yeah.
- [73:30]
A
Yeah. I don't like ice water because it hits my teeth.
- [73:32]
B
I don't. Yeah, yeah.
- [73:35]
A
We're dressed the same.
- [73:36]
B
Yeah.
- [73:36]
A
It's crazy. I just think it's. Yeah. I'm annoyed that I had to learn about any of this crap.
- [73:42]
B
I'm so.
- [73:43]
A
I'm really glad that we got. I got to meet you and talk to you because I thank you for having me, because I think that. I don't know, we just had Alec Baldwin on the show.
- [73:50]
B
Very similar.
- [73:51]
A
No, but it's just, like, the way people that are well known. The way people process their lives fucking up is there's a revelry that people have. People like, kind of like jack off to it, you know, in the same way, it's like, I think, like, I see how talented fucking Alec Baldwin is. And I was saying this to him. It was like, you know, his struggles with celebrity undermine the very reason for him being a celebrity.
- [74:19]
B
It was interesting, though, because it's like I spent so much of this 10 year period as like, officially cast as like a witness, right? And then to be someone who suddenly becomes witnessed and to like be witnessing the witness being witnessed, right. It creates this really. And as someone who has been in the media for this really long period of time, I guess I used to think that there was like, subject and chronicler, right? And there were like, there's that vantage point and this vantage point, there's inside the story and outside the story. And then this whole experience has sort of crystallized for me that it's more like this, this kaleidoscopic thing, right? It's more. There are, it's. There are a million facets to a story, a million different vantage points there. It's much more complicated and more interesting than I had kind of given it credit for.
- [75:16]
A
Do you like being the subject? It kind of probably sucks.
- [75:19]
B
It sucks.
- [75:20]
A
Maybe you should apologize to Trump. Say, now I understand what it's like to be the subject.
- [75:25]
B
It sucks. But it also teaches you about being the chronicler in a way that, like, does that make sense?
- [75:32]
A
You need to let Trump write an article about you.
- [75:34]
B
You see, like when you're. When you are written about, right?
- [75:37]
A
Yeah. I can't read it.
- [75:40]
B
It's really, really hard to read.
- [75:42]
A
You watch this. No, you. Come on.
- [75:45]
B
No, I'm asking you.
- [75:46]
A
You're gonna see what.
- [75:47]
B
I'm gonna ask Nate to watch it.
- [75:48]
A
Wait, was it. It was mainly sexting, not. Not on the phone or texting.
- [75:54]
B
I don't talk about that in the world.
- [75:56]
A
Well, you know what the joke, the obvious joke is? He didn't get mad at me. The obvious joke is that. Cause he has to text. Cause he talks so funny. George Santos, Olivia Nuzzi, everyone. She's mad at me. Sam. Love. It isn't just one color. It comes in countless shades, different hues. Desert diamonds celebrate all the people we love and all the shades that make them who they are in an entire spectrum of unexpected tones. From warm whites to pale champagnes to deep ambers. Natural colors that reflect they will always be loved for exactly who they are. Discover desert diamonds. A diamond is forever.
- [77:30]
B
Too fast, Trevor. Too fast.
- [77:31]
A
Here at the Zebra, research shows people would rather teach their kids to drive than search for auto and home insurance. I know what I'm doing, Mom. Or attend a corporate team building workshop. Go, team. Feel that synergy. Or be regaled by Uncle Frank's conspiracy theories. They're listening to us right now. That's why the Zebra searches for you. Comparing over 100 insurance companies to find savings no one else can Compare. Today@thezebra.com we do the searching, you do the savings.