The Lost Episodes: Don Lemon

Summary

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The Adam Friedland Show

The Lost Episodes: Don Lemon

Date: July 29, 2026

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Overview

In this installment of The Adam Friedland Show's "Lost Episodes" series, Adam hosts former CNN anchor and media icon Don Lemon for a sprawling, candid, and frequently comedic conversation. The discussion covers Lemon’s media career, the evolution and corporatization of news, identity, authenticity, media trust, generational change in LGBTQ culture, memorable news moments, and the chaotic legacy of the Trump years. Both Adam and Don bounce between irreverent jokes and substantive insights, giving the episode a loose, lively, and at times self-deprecating tone.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Don Lemon’s Early Career and Inspirations

• Parallels with Oprah Winfrey: Adam draws a comparison between Don Lemon’s rise from the South through affiliate stations to national prominence and Oprah’s similar journey. Don acknowledges Oprah as "the GOAT" and inspiration but adds nuance:

  "Yes, a decay of trust because it's become more corporatized over time and that tends to peel away the trust." (12:35)

• Traditional News Pathways: Don notes that, pre-internet, anchors had to work their way up in small markets and hone their craft—a path he sees as largely disappeared:

  “You could actually go learn the craft before the Internet, make your mistakes... And then by the time you got to a big market or to network, then you were honed.” (08:04)

• Mentors and Representation: Don describes his first news director giving him a shot on air and the importance of seeing local Black anchors on TV when he was young.

  “There was a woman who was an inspiration in my town...Jean West. She was a local newsletter lady. And then I saw her and I was like, oh, well, that's like my family.” (33:15)

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The Changing Nature of Media & Trust

• Decay of Trust in Media: Don and Adam agree that corporate consolidation has diminished trust. Don links this to editorial self-censorship and the corporate protection of business interests.

  “Mainstream media... It’s all by companies who have, you know, their business to protect. And so you got to be careful what you say on the air.” (12:49)

• Loss of Editorial Standards: Don reflects on the democratization of media—everyone having a platform—and laments the erosion of standards and rigor:

  “It's bad in that there are no standards.” (19:39)

• Rise of Alternative Information Sources: Adam and Don discuss the rise of shows, podcasts, and YouTube as competing information environments, blurring the line between journalism, entertainment, and influence.

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Identity, Community, and Generational Change

• On Being Gay and Generational Attitudes: Don shares the shift in LGBTQ experience: from the fear and loss of the AIDS crisis in the 1990s to the normalization and "heteronormativity" of younger generations:

  “I kind of liked it when being gay was, like, sort of special and counterculture... Now... all of my friends... want to get married. They want to be heteronormative.” (28:23, 29:09)

• Marriage and Rights: Don admits he married for his husband’s sake, expressing a sense of OG/old school detachment from the institution but support for equal rights.
• Cultural Critique: Both Adam and Don joke about cultural shifts, norms, and authenticity, with Don playfully calling out sagging pants and both riffing on the origins of the practice.

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Lessons from Journalism and Media Ethics

• Authenticity vs. Editorial Constraint: Don says the key lesson after leaving cable was regaining authenticity—being direct and relatable, rather than reflexively filtering everything:

  “Because then people at home aren't getting what they should be getting. And people, people. And you're not serving. It's not relatable because people at home aren't filtering themselves that much.” (41:35)

• Corporate Media Limitations: Don admits legacy media is stuck in tradition, but could benefit from letting authentic voices—like comedians or long-form podcasters—mix with news programming.

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The Trump Era, Conspiracy Theories, and Media Cynicism

• Trump’s Media Impact: Don and Adam explore how Trump’s presidency permanently damaged trust in the news, with fact checks losing meaning for loyal followers.
• Conspiracy Theorists Ascend: Adam notes, “Remember, when a conspiracy theorist used to be... the smelliest, like, and he was wearing, like, a Vietnam jacket. And you're like, good luck with that library guy. Now it's literally nothing is real anymore.” (49:56)
• Memorable Moments:
  • Election Night 2016: Don’s love story begins at a Weinstein-hosted watch party; he jovially notes Trump as a "catalyst" for meeting his husband.

    “...there was one thing good that came out of that, but no, it was. That's actually a really good story. Do you want to hear it?” (15:11)

  • Jussie Smollett Case: Don distances himself from Smollett’s fabricated hate crime, noting skepticism from the outset.

    “We knew it was a lie right away. Like, immediately I knew it was a lie.” (42:50)

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Media Versus Comedy & Influence

• Comedians as Informers: Both ponder the blurring lines between comedy and news. Don sees value, Adam warns it's overblown:

  "Don't get the news from a comedian. Get it from the news." (49:36)

• On Being 'Different' Than TV Hosts: Don argues we're all multifaceted, and shouldn’t over-mystify people in media.

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Reflections on News, Legacy, and What’s Next

• Future Ambitions: Don wants to build his own network, focusing on authenticity and reach via digital media—acknowledging the shifting locus of attention away from legacy TV.
• Cable News’s Rise and Fall: Don recalls the moment cable eclipsed broadcast as the top news format (George Floyd, Covid, Trump) and recognizes its decline as YouTube and new media take over.

  “Television has a prestige. It's gonna have it for a minute. But no, I get the same thing out of doing it the way that I do it that I did when I was there without a pretense.” (48:35)

• On Editorial Standards in New Media: Don warns that a lack of rigor and editorial standards online poses dangers—but ultimately reiterates the importance of being where the audience is and encourages the melding of authenticity with responsibility.
• Being Pushed Out of CNN: Don frames his CNN exit as a “blessing in disguise,” enabling him to reinvent himself.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Modern Journalism’s Demise

  "Kids don't know how to write now, you can start with this. You don't have to go around and learn. And everyone thinks that they should be, like a network correspondent or anchor immediately. Like within a year or so, it's like, no, it doesn't. It shouldn't work that way." – Don Lemon, (08:04)

• On Media Authenticity

  "They need people who are authentic. The thing that I had to untrain myself and retrain myself… Because I used to second guess myself all the time… Not always. Because then people at home aren't getting what they should be getting." – Don Lemon, (41:19, 41:35)

• On Trump’s Appeal and Machismo

  "Trump is so gay... He's taken over a gay anthem. YMCA. That's the gayest song ever." – Don Lemon, (44:23, 44:34)

• On Meeting His Husband on Election Night

  "We said, I don't want to sleep alone tonight because this is pretty fucking scary." (16:47)

• On the Future of Media

  "I would like to build my network and have some folks who are working for me. Correspondents everywhere and have my own little—yeah, network or big network." – Don Lemon, (55:32)

• On Conspiracy Theories

  "Remember when a conspiracy theorist used to be... and he was wearing, like, a Vietnam jacket. And you're like, good luck with that library guy. Now it's literally nothing is real anymore." – Adam Friedland, (49:56)

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Important Timestamps

• Don Arrives, Early Banter: 02:09–05:50
• Don’s Media Path & Inspirations: 05:50–11:30
• Legacy Media and Trust: 12:24–14:09
• Election Night 2016 & Meeting Husband: 15:00–17:03
• Generational LGBTQ Changes: 27:09–29:27
• Corporate vs. Digital Media: 38:49–42:27
• Jussie Smollett Story: 42:02–43:47
• Authenticity vs. Editorial Restraint: 41:19–41:47
• Conspiracy Theories & News Decay: 49:48–51:08
• January 6th & Trump Era: 51:08–53:06
• Future Ambitions & New Media: 55:32–57:54

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Episode Tone & Style

The conversation is irreverent, self-aware, and often playful, with Adam leveraging his comedian’s sensibility and Don matching with candor. They veer fluidly between thoughtful media analysis, generational and cultural riffs, and running in-jokes about legacy media, internet culture, and the absurdities of the current moment. Both are critical yet affectionate towards their respective crafts.

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Transcript

[A]

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[A]

Hey, guys. Welcome back to the Adam Friedland Show. For the next four weeks, we will commence our Lost episode series. This week we have Don Lemon. I think we did it last year. Is that right, Thomas? Yeah, probably around last year. I don't know why this was never posted. Oh, I think he got arrested afterwards and it was no longer relevant. I don't know. Guys. We have four big Lost episodes coming up the next four weeks, followed by the season three premiere of the Adam Friedland Show. Real quick, I'll be on the road. Denver Comedy Works, October 22nd and 24th. And New York, New York, New York Comedy Festival, November 13th. A big ass motherfucking show, guys. Make sure you get tickets. AdamFriedland show. Wow, that was awesome. Ladies and gentlemen, media icon Don lemon. Everybody. From Louisiana, from Mr. How are you?

[B]

What's up?

[A]

How are you? Thanks for coming.

[B]

Nice hat.

[A]

Thank you. You gave me your hat.

[B]

Where'd you get that?

[A]

From you. I don't think you guys got to go out here and get. Do you know what the website is for?

[B]

What?

[A]

Lemon Party.

[B]

Oh, no, it's for. It's donlemon.com.

[A]

what do you know? Have you heard of the website?

[B]

Have I heard of what?

[A]

There's a website called Lemon Party.

[B]

They talk about Lemon Party. I've never. I don't know. I've never heard of Lemon Party.

[A]

No, I mean, it's a loose show. I could. I mean, we're all in loose show.

[B]

Is this some, like, sexual stuff?

[A]

This was like a legendary website that like in high school you would like, put into your friends, like family computer. I Mean, it's. It's a really. It's like you've never heard of. I assumed your family was never heard of Big Lemon Party. Lemon Party isn't the most. What is going. Guys, I'm very upset. Zachary, I need help with the iPad. Can you help?

[B]

Should I buy that website now?

[A]

Don, the fact that you don't know that.

[B]

All right, I'm gonna look it up, see if I can find it.

[A]

You should look it up. It's. It's. I mean, can someone back me up here? You guys are like, not.

[B]

Dude, it doesn't show. Do you even have WI fi in the studio?

[A]

Yes, we do. And the password is. I found it. Well, yeah, Zach, this is. It was a website that just. Yeah. Can I see it?

[B]

Yeah, on my phone.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, on your phone. This is Don Lemon. It's a big deal. You can tell your mom.

[B]

Are you.

[A]

Big Head?

[B]

Which one of these is you?

[A]

So it was a website that just showed this image, and it was a big prank growing up, and it was.

[B]

What is that?

[A]

It's Lemon Party. Your family started this website.

[B]

Is that three old dudes?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, wow. It's really beautiful. I didn't know that they got down like that.

[B]

Is that what you're into?

[A]

No, it's guys. Since fucking sixth grade. Lemon Party is like. It's the big joke. You text someone. One time I had Chet Hanks on, and he was getting mad at me.

[B]

That's my favorite interview with you.

[A]

Well, I did a second one where he got actually mad at me. And, I mean, he's the best guy ever, but. Well, actually, you shouted it out. I saw. You showed love.

[B]

That was my favorite interview with you. When I was starting my show, I looked at you.

[A]

Copied.

[B]

Well, I looked to you for inspiration.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Honestly? Yeah. Cause I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. I had no idea what I was doing. And I like. This is my aesthetic. You know what this is?

[A]

This is a Saarinen Tune knockoff.

[B]

It's a knockoff.

[A]

These are. We tried to match the Dick Cavett show, and he used cheap knockoffs. So we unnecessarily spent $16,000 on four of these chairs.

[B]

Did you know that I said that when I walked in? Who was your inspiration? Dick Cavett. It looks like the Dick Cabot Show. I didn't even know that, but I like, these are. These are, like.

[A]

Don, congratulate. And we all know this.

[B]

These look like. Like, it could be Noel.

[A]

Like, these were no. Yeah. These are Eames. Eames lobby chairs from the Knoll Corporation that we unnecessarily spent $4,000 on each. And they came from a courthouse in Pennsylvania. People probably went to the death penalty.

[B]

You could have gotten these. A knockoff at Design with Emreach, probably.

[A]

No, but designed within reach. Not exactly within reach. You've been 1% for too long, my friend. So tell us about St. Barts. How's your things?

[B]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[A]

You got. Who do you have. You have Katzenberg, you have Geffen, you have Sydney Sweeney. You had the guy that made Spider Man.

[B]

Lorne Michaels.

[A]

You had Lorne Michaels.

[B]

Yeah. You got. Everyone you've got is.

[A]

You have an ambition to host Jared Kushner. What's he like as a guy, Jared Kushner?

[B]

I don't. I've never met Jared Kushner.

[A]

I feel like there's just. There's. I can typically sense what a guy is like. He feels so. Just like what he's like from a video game. You walk past him and he's just on the street and he's like. He's like, in, like. You know, he's just a. They call it an NPC. What are you like. You're, like, 65 years old, but you look 23.

[B]

I'm 85. No, I'm 50. I'm in my 50s.

[A]

You're in your 50s. Closing in, so you look incredible for 50s.

[B]

Thank you. I looked a lot younger before Trump came to office, but to my knowledge, I've never met Jared Kushner. I've met Ivanka and all the other kids.

[A]

She must be lovely.

[B]

Yeah. But Jared's brother Josh is amazing.

[A]

He's a big real estate guy.

[B]

He's a good dude.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. He's married to the Carly. What's her face?

[B]

Klaus.

[A]

Klaus. Klaus. Kind of a little bit.

[B]

She's gorgeous.

[A]

Yeah. But, Klaus, it just sounds like someone that's sending you to the. To the neighborhood. We don't have to get. I get into Holocaust too early every episode. Anyway, I want to get into you because I think you're. I didn't know your backstory prior to, like, researching for this episode, but I think you have, like, a really interesting kind of backstory. Like, you're from the south, and you kind of, like, you did kind of an anchorman bouncing around between affiliate stations kind of situation, and then you found yourself at the top. You know, the parallel that I thought of, like, analyzing your career was like. Like, was Oprah Winfrey, because she was, like, from the South. She worked in affiliate news stations, and she kind of worked her way to the top of kind of media.

[B]

I think it's one of the. Who was it?

[A]

Was she an inspiration for you?

[B]

Yeah, well, of course. I mean, Oprah. She's the goat. She, you know, then she went the talk show route, but sort of traditional news. Yes. I think I was one of the last. Do you know who Ben Smith is? Who's.

[A]

Yeah. From Buzzfeed. From Semaphore. Yeah.

[B]

He said it had one of the last traditional sort of news careers where people had to go to different markets and work their way up.

[A]

Does the path not exist anymore?

[B]

It does, but not to the same extent, because you could actually go learn the craft before the Internet, make your mistakes. And then by the time you got to a big market or to network, then you were honed and you could write. You know how to do. Kids don't know how to write. Now, you can start with this. You don't have to go around and learn. And everyone thinks that they should be, like a network correspondent or anchor immediately. Like within a year or so, it's like, no, it doesn't. It shouldn't work that way.

[A]

How bad were your mistakes? You got someone in the electric chair or something?

[B]

You know, you pronounce shit wrong, you get stuff wrong.

[A]

Oh, have you been on a news blooper before?

[B]

I'm sure I have.

[A]

It's one of the funniest.

[B]

It's the best.

[A]

I mean, what was their name? The. The officer that got killed? The famous one, the lady. The Mega Doo Doo.

[B]

Oh, you know that one? No.

[A]

What's her name? Dee Dee Megadoodoo. An officer dead in the line of duty. Dee Dee Megadoodoo. News bloopers are the. The absolute funniest thing on earth.

[B]

Yeah, I haven't been a news blooper, but I have some pretty funny news moments. Well, yeah, once. Once it wasn't me. I was doing an interview and the person was satellite and their chair, the air started going out of their chair, so the chair just started going down while she was on. That was funny. And then I have funny moments because I didn't give a shit. So I had funny moments. There's a funny cheesecake moment. What is it called? What's the Cheesecake Factory moment? And then there's like a. And then there was a maga hat funny moment. I had a bunch of fun.

[A]

What does that mean? Cheesecake maga hat.

[B]

There was just a thing where we Were talking about this, you know, a MAGA hat. This guy wearing a MAGA hat in the Cheesecake Factory. Someone brought it up and then everybody just sort of cracked up.

[A]

That was on the news.

[B]

Yeah, it was on the news.

[A]

So what, this guy was just wearing a hat in a restaurant?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sorry, I'm just. Okay.

[B]

It wasn't, it wasn't the guy in the restaurant. You have to watch it.

[A]

Do you ever go to an affiliate station in a city you've never lived in before? You're like, these people are disgusting. No, like, when you were in Philly, you were like, ugh, I have to cover these monsters.

[B]

No, but I, I hate all this. After a while, it got old. Like, standing in front of, you know, a place where there was. Something was breaking, like, at 9 in the morning and it's 11 o' clock at night. And it's like, why are we here? It's like, you know, that got old or just like random shootings and stabbings?

[A]

Just like. What was your, like, first kind of major lesson that you got, like, along the way? Or like, did you have a mentor? Like someone that, like, saw some potential in you growing up?

[B]

I never, I never really had a mentor. I mean, folks saw potential. My first news director saw potential because I was working here at Channel 5. That was my first job. Fox 5.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know where it is? WNYW?

[A]

I don't know where the.

[B]

Do you remember Metromedia? You're not old enough to remember Metro Media. It's in the old Metromedia building.

[A]

Yeah. Is it like this? It's kind of like. Yeah, it's kind of.

[B]

It sounds like a Metro, but it's where A Current Affair started. Do you remember that? It's where, like. Oh, yeah, like tabloid TV started in that building.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I worked for the 10 o' clock news. And so my first news director, one of my first news directors. I was a field producer and an assignment editor and satellite fee coordinator and all that shit. And writer. And then I wanted to be on air and I put my tape together and she said, you're really good. I'll put you on. She started putting me on the air. And that's, that's, that's how I built my tape.

[A]

How did you know that you'd be good at that?

[B]

I knew when I was, I knew when I was a kid. What'd you say?

[A]

If you were uglier, it probably would have been scary.

[B]

Don't come on to me. It's embarrassing.

[A]

I'm not coming on to you. I'm just saying, like, when you came out of the closet on cnn, were there, like, women that were like, you?

[B]

No.

[A]

You had to have had, like, ladies

[B]

that were like, no, they were like, I don't. I don't care. He's still. Or they were, like, disappointed.

[A]

You just didn't notice them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You definitely had gals that were like, oh, my God, he's the perfect man. And then they're like, motherfucker.

[B]

Yeah, maybe. Why are all the good ones, they always gay guys?

[A]

Yeah. Like, in shape and stuff. We're disgusting slobs, me and my friends. That's what you. How long would you consider that you've been in your field?

[B]

Like, oh, since 1991. 92.

[A]

So you're like, that is a dramatic shift in. In what media is and how it's.

[B]

Yeah, I've seen everything.

[A]

Do you conceive of it as like you've been in the belly of a decay, or at least a decay of trust?

[B]

Yes, a decay of trust because it's become more corporatized over time and that tends to peel away the trust. People don't trust because they think it's too much corporate influence.

[A]

You're talking about like CNN or network news.

[B]

I mean network news, but just corporate media in general, just sort of mainstream media. It's all by companies who have, you know, their business to protect. And so you got to be careful what you say on the air.

[A]

Has that, like, ever, like, conflicted with, like, like, you've had to self censor. Have you had to self censored?

[B]

All the time when I was.

[A]

You've had to sell some bullshit crap. You mean sell like, you know, the affiliate or the network wants you to, like, say, like, oh, yeah, like, we don't give you cancer.

[B]

No, I've never been told. I will say when I was at cnn, was never told what to say. I was never told that you must do something except toward the last year I was there, which was not very pleasant.

[A]

But your boss was Zucker when you were there.

[B]

Yeah. Jeff is awesome.

[A]

Does he regret not giving Trump a better contract offer for the Apprentices?

[B]

No, I don't think he's.

[A]

It's kind of a little bit his fault. If Trump wasn't like, renegotiating for the new season, he wouldn't have done the escalator and the run for President.

[B]

I think that was over. I think your timeline is off.

[A]

I think he was a little bit renegotiated. He was like, zucker, I'm gonna be the president. I Don't need you. And then accidentally, he became the president twice. It's kind of doing it twice is a little bit like, shame on him.

[B]

Yeah. I would say it's hard to say it's one person's fault because it takes a lot of people in the country.

[A]

Zucker and Weiner, I think the two.

[B]

Anthony Weiner.

[A]

Well, had it not been for the laptop a week, 10 days out from the election, Comey wouldn't have written the letter. It's the most damage done by any one penis of all time. We wouldn't have had literally the end of democracy.

[B]

I'm thinking about that.

[A]

Think about it.

[B]

You might be right. Honestly, you might be right. I never thought about that.

[A]

Or if they let Trump buy the Bills, he would have just been the team owner of the Buffalo Bills with Jon Bon Jovi. There's a lot of tinfoil hat moments we've had over the last couple years. But you met your husband.

[B]

But it's kind of. How do you know this shit?

[A]

Well, I just thought that was, like, bizarre that you got so horny from Donald Trump winning in 2016. I was sad. I was mourning and you were like, I'm horned up.

[B]

It's really the best story ever, honestly.

[A]

Tell us.

[B]

We talk about it. I don't know if he mentioned it in his vows, but he said, thank

[A]

God Donald Trump was the president. God is so horny.

[B]

I think we mentioned it in our reception speech that there was one thing good that came out of that, but no, it was. That's actually a really good story. Do you want to hear it?

[A]

Yeah, I love it.

[B]

So it was election night, and I'm not. I'm not political. I'm not a political reporter. So everything went to D.C. and all the folks in D.C. so you were off. So I had the night off, and then I can. Then Chris and I would come in the next day and, like, do it and then do the fun shit or analysis. And so I got invited to this party at Cipriani in Soho or downtown. And so it was.

[A]

It was.

[B]

It was an election night watch party given by Harvey Weinstein.

[A]

Really? Yeah, really. So you were getting horned up with the Weinstein. It sounds. This is a really beautiful story.

[B]

So he invited a bunch of people. It was. I was there. I think Martha Stewart was there. Andrew Cuomo was there.

[A]

That had to be the best.

[B]

Miles Teller was there.

[A]

Oh, of course. Rubber. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

No, a bunch of folks. And so we met Tim and I met Downtown was our first date.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we walked in and he sat at a table like this, and you know how they make the table bigger so get more people around him? And when he sat, he kicked the thing and everything fell off of the table.

[A]

Oh, it's like a romantic comedy.

[B]

Yeah, it was like a romantic comedy.

[A]

Cute.

[B]

And then when that settled down, we started seeing the numbers come in, and they were like, oh, yeah, she still got Pennsylvania. She's still got Florida. And I was looking at my CNN email going, oh. And then we were like, let's get out of here. And then we went to the Polo Bar to meet my agent, and we watched the results from there. And then everyone's like, holy shit.

[A]

Everyone's cheering. Probably at the Polo Bar.

[B]

No, really? And then we said, I don't want to sleep alone tonight because this is pretty fucking scary.

[A]

Really?

[B]

And he ended up staying, and I lived in Harlem then.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. And so the next morning, he had to ride home on the subway with a bunch of black people. And he's like. He wanted to just go, I didn't do it.

[A]

So he's a racist, your husband. So you. You mentioned racist.

[B]

He thought people would think that he voted for him. He voted for Trump. And he said, you know, because it was just a little uncomfortable.

[A]

My parents met at a gay bar, actually.

[B]

Did they?

[A]

No, they didn't meet, but my dad sealed the deal at a gay bar.

[B]

He had sex with her at a gay bar?

[A]

No. Well, I think that night, I don't know if it was at the gay bar, but they kept getting set up on blind dates, and she kept being like, this guy, and she was like, this guy sucks. And. And it was like three blind dates or four.

[B]

So what were they doing in a gay bar?

[A]

My dad was at a party. She shows up with her girls, and he's like, oh, my God, it's the girl from the blind dates. He's like, maybe I'll try and chat her up again.

[B]

Your dad was at a party at a gay bar?

[A]

No, this is prior to the gay bar.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So they just go to a party, and it's the girl that hates him from three blind dates. And she's, like, said to her girls, she's like, let's get out of here. I want to go dancing. Right. And him and his friend, like, followed them, I guess, and they went to a gay bar, like a club. And my dad was like, oh, my God, this place is gay. So him and his friend, like, held hands on the way in because they thought that they get caught.

[B]

That's the only way they could they

[A]

get caught for not being gay? And I guess that that was the bold.

[B]

What is the test for that?

[A]

It's cuter than your racist husband. I think that's. It's. It's interesting because, like, we're in this place in time right now where I'm kind of afforded access to. I talked to the mayor, isn't it? And it's just. I have absolutely no right. Like, I. I'm just wearing glasses. Like, this grift is about to be up. But what's interesting is, like, you talked about how, like, you don't have to wait in line like you did prior, like, going station to station. That whole pathway is gone. Is it a product of, like, the democratization of media? Is it a product of, like, everything is the media now? Everyone's a freaking journo now? Or like.

[B]

Well, I don't think everything's a journo. Everyone's a journo. But I think there are different ways to get information. Like, I don't know if you would consider. I have to look at Larry King's resume. But a journalist, but he certainly gave information. He was an interview. I don't think Johnny Carson was a journalist, but you certainly get it. Information from shows like that. And some of the morning show folks are not journalists. There are people who are on now who are not. Who didn't go to school for journalism, but yet they're, you know, maybe they took a path and, you know, for their career, but I think it's good and bad. Yeah. Is it the democratization of media?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah. But it's good and bad. It's bad in that there are no standards.

[A]

Would it benefit from, like, a standardized, like, definition? It would, right?

[B]

It would.

[A]

Why isn't there one?

[B]

Because it's hard to control everything. I mean, the Internet has made everything so hard to control. Before, you just had to get information. You didn't have access to information like that. You didn't have access to be able. I mean, this is basically a network in your pocket. We can go live right now, and people will start watching us. You want to do it?

[A]

I'm scared of it. I make Zach touch the buttons.

[B]

But you weren't able to do that. You know, even.

[A]

Yeah, you could have a meltdown about wearing a mask in a Walgreens, then being Congress, like, two years later. Like, seriously, it's. It feels a little bit like. A little like the class. It used to be classier.

[B]

What? The media, you mean?

[A]

Just the country.

[B]

Oh, the country used to be classier Yeah, I agree with that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, look how we're dressed now. I mean, before we do this, we'd have to wear, like, a suit or something.

[A]

Fetterman is so hot right now. We have to. We're trying to do the thing. We're trying to like, and, you know, it's just like, why can't we just be ourselves?

[B]

Yeah, but it's good and bad. It's bad. And again, there are no editorial rigors for the most part. And then it's good because you can actually, you know, you're not influenced by someone else's. How they want you to tell the story.

[A]

I think a lot about, like, when there's, like a. Like the Boston bombing, I think, was one example of this. When there's, like, citizen, like, people on Reddit trying to, like, there's, like, really catastrophic events a lot of the time. Like, people, like, innocent people are, like, kind of like their lives are fucked with during, like, moments of crisis like that. And it just feels like sometimes there should be more of a. Kind of a system in place to, like, prohibit people from, like, thinking that they're Batman of the media, thinking that the dark night of the media.

[B]

What do you mean? What are you talking.

[A]

Well, I'm just saying, like, you know, like, to me, what would make sense? Because I'm like a freaking pinko. You know, whatever is like, there should be just a. There should be public media that doesn't have a profit incentive.

[B]

You mean media that doesn't make people crazy?

[A]

Well, media that's, like, not trying to make money for GE or something. You're like.

[B]

Well, that's what I. That's what I mean by the corporate media, and that's influence. I mean, you can't fuck up a GE contract. I'm just. I'm just.

[A]

But I'm trying to make money for boner pills right now. Is that. Is this a better alternative? Like.

[B]

Well, yeah. Are people watching you?

[A]

I think that if you have, like, a public broadcasting system with, like, you know, safeguards that are kind of enumerated by, you know, legislation, like, it's the only way to kind of protect people at the end of the day.

[B]

Well, look, I look at it differently. As long as you're not pretending. You're not pretending to be a journalist. You're just being Adam.

[A]

No, I was gonna ask you, because I have some headlines I want to

[B]

practice with you, then that's fine. But there are people out there who pretend to be journalists, and they're not, and they don't you know, they don't have the range. And I don't think you have to do that. I just think there's a difference between being an influencer, a streamer, and a journalist.

[A]

I'm not the influencer. A streamer. This is a long form Jewish style YouTube talk show and it's very important, according to the newspaper. I think it's because I'm wearing glasses. Would you feel like I'm copying you if I went into the middle of a hurricane and just stood there with a microphone?

[B]

There are a lot of people who

[A]

do that, but you're like, that's what a journalist is supposed to do to get rained on.

[B]

Well, that's part of it. That's what a reporter does.

[A]

You were into that, though. I could tell.

[B]

It was. It was interesting. I liked it.

[A]

Were you the most extreme one? You're like, I'm gonna go to the hardest wind. Anderson Cooper doesn't have shit on me. No, I'm gonna go.

[B]

There was never competition like that, but it was.

[A]

Why do we need a guy getting rained on?

[B]

Well, you don't. Yeah, yeah, but people love it.

[A]

It's so funny.

[B]

It is.

[A]

It must be so fun.

[B]

It is fun until. Unless it's freezing and then you're soaking wet and then you end up, you know, with pneumonia or something. But yeah, it is fun. It is fun because everybody watches and you're blowing around and. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of fun. And they just. Until the worst of it passes. You're just standing there and you have to come up with shit to say because they're not going to leave you. If the. If you're aware the bad weather, hurricane or whatever it is, then they're on you the entire time. So you just have to talk and show shit.

[A]

So coming from your background, like you're from a religious family from the south, you kind of like made it to New York City. Your family backstory is pretty interesting. Is it true that there was a second family or something like that that you discovered later on in life?

[B]

No, it wasn't a second family or

[A]

there was a divorce or.

[B]

Yeah, well, my mom had divorced her first husband, which is my sister's dad. My mom was like a teen pregnant bride or whatever. But then years later, my mom went to work. As she was walking to college, she passed this law office that said a legal secretary needed, and she applied and she got it. She went in and got the job. And then my dad was an attorney. And then they ended up having a relationship. Well, My dad was. Was married. But back then, divorces were not quite as easy, and he didn't divorce her. The rumor was that she was a lesbian, and so they just stayed together.

[A]

The other wife.

[B]

The other wife.

[A]

Sounds like your mom was a little bit being a bitch, maybe. No, she's like. I heard she's lesbian.

[B]

No, my mom never said that. It was actually the other way around.

[A]

Not really.

[B]

She was probably cruel.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, she never spoke ill. And she was actually very kind to the woman. And I remember the woman never knew. I mean, I think she probably suspected that I was a dad. Yeah, for sure. She didn't know, but she didn't pry. It was kind of like don't ask, don't tell. They. They led separate lives.

[A]

So he's a lawyer, but he couldn't figure out how to get a divorce?

[B]

No, it's not. He couldn't figure it out. You just didn't do it. I think he was just being kind.

[A]

Napoleonic code. I know what you're saying. Yeah. So he was a. He was older. Is he your stepfather?

[B]

Older than my dad, my mom, your mom, your.

[A]

Is he Mr. Lemon?

[B]

No, no, my stepdad.

[A]

He was your biological father?

[B]

My biological father. He was my biological father, but my sister is Lemon. Yeah, that's her. That's their dad. My mom was married and then got a divorce, but I just took the last name because my parents weren't married.

[A]

Was your stepdad. You're like your father figure. Growing up.

[B]

He was my everything, but he died when I was seven.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it was a lot of girls.

[B]

Yeah, I was nine. Would you say there's a lot of what?

[A]

Girls?

[B]

Grandma and then a stepsister. My mom remarried.

[A]

Yeah, Grandma.

[B]

It was a lot of women.

[A]

They drove you nuts?

[B]

They did.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

But you learn a lot when you're. When it's all women.

[A]

When they're yelling at you, what do you do?

[B]

You learn to. You have to deal with it.

[A]

How do you deal?

[B]

They'll yell at you. But, I mean, my sisters did. But they were also my biggest protectors.

[A]

One of your biggest guesses? D.L.

[B]

hughley, one of my biggest guests. Well, he's always a friend. Yeah, he's alive. We do. We do shows together.

[A]

And you're also D.L. you're Don Lemon.

[B]

I'm D.L. don Lemon. And at one point, I was D.L.

[A]

you were DL?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is. Is David Letterman active in the DL community?

[B]

Initially?

[A]

Was he. He's a. He's an inspiration.

[B]

Did you guys get that? They didn't get it initially.

[A]

Initially. Well, next question. When you moved to New York as, like, a young gay guy, it must have been incredible coming out of the

[B]

south in the 90s.

[A]

In the 90s, it was really fun. AIDS was over, right? No, no, it was like, ending. Right. It was on a down slope.

[B]

Well, I mean, you didn't know it then. I mean, there was no cure. It was actually wasn't on the downs, but it was pretty much like it was a height almost.

[A]

What did you learn about your community? Because, like, those guys that came for the decade before literally went through the Holocaust. I mean, like, you were like, the next generation up.

[B]

Yeah, the next generation up. But still, it was still part of it. I mean, in the 90s, it was still AIDS. The AIDS was ravaging the community and it was scary.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, like, people's sexual habits changed.

[A]

Did it make intimacy, like, scary for, like.

[B]

Yeah, I think a lot of people who grew up, who are. Came out around the time. I think they have intimacy issues now.

[A]

I just think about those old timers. They just, like. They. All of their friends died. Yeah. I don't think that we respect them enough.

[B]

You think they're OGs.

[A]

They've been through hell. And they also, like, just like, got beaten up and stuff prior to that. Like, they were like. They weren't like, on Will and Grace.

[B]

No.

[A]

But, like, they were, like, thought of as, like, the fringes of society. They really took the shit.

[B]

But it was fun then. I kind of liked it when the thin mustache guys. No, I kind of liked it when being gay was, like, sort of special and counterculture and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now it's just, you know, all of my friends, like, everyone I know is this heteronormative.

[A]

It's gay of me to be straight. I feel like it's what I feel, gay to be straight. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like I don't have tattoos and I'm straight. I'm like, yeah, I'm punk rock, basically, at this point.

[B]

Yeah. Do you want to go to a gay wedding or a straight wedding?

[A]

A gay wedding or a straight wedding? Why would a gay guy get married? What a waste of gay.

[B]

That's what I'm talking about.

[A]

Married.

[B]

I know. I mean, my husband is younger, so he wanted to get married, but I didn't.

[A]

I mean, were you like, this is ridiculous.

[B]

But you can't say that. You can't say that to a generation who's now used to having the same sort of rights and accessibility as everybody else.

[A]

They all went to Goldman Sachs.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. So they all, you know, the younger folks are. They want to get married. They want to be heteronormative. And for someone like me, it's all well and good. I can do it, but I did not necessarily need to have a wedding or get married. I would like the rights. The same rights as everybody else, but I didn't have to do that.

[A]

Do you old head them? Do you OG them?

[B]

Yeah. Fuck yeah.

[A]

You're like, listen, young buck.

[B]

Fuck yeah.

[A]

Pull up your damn pants.

[B]

I do you.

[A]

Well, you. You're a Pull up your damn pants guy.

[B]

Kind of.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I saw. I saw you talking about.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What do you hate most about sagging?

[B]

Well, I don't want to see the crack of someone's ass dirty underwear. I just. It's gross.

[A]

You like, because it's your community, so you want to like. You want to be like, we. Let's hold our. It's like.

[B]

That's not. That's not.

[A]

No, it's like how I'm like, let's not like, cause a famine and have a baby star.

[B]

You mean the black community.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's how I'm critical of my community. It's. My sagging is. Let's just not bombard a civilian population with a. I just don't.

[B]

I just don't think it's. I mean, necessary. And it's also comes from prison culture, like when you couldn't wear a belt and so.

[A]

Yeah, but. So does the word punk, right?

[B]

Yeah, but still.

[A]

But, yeah, but you're not a jailhouse.

[B]

How often do you use that word?

[A]

Punk? Yeah, like punk rock. Yeah. It used to mean a guy that was getting. People were having sex with in jail. But then it became.

[B]

Yeah, but that was a different thing. That was.

[A]

Punk is cool. Cool.

[B]

It was. Punk is different than the way you say it would be. P O N K Punk. Punk.

[A]

I think in the 50s it was

[B]

P U N K. Well, that's that

[A]

they were a prisoner.

[B]

Punks were like, oh, we gotta look

[A]

this up on the Lemon party dot com.

[B]

Yeah, but I am that guy.

[A]

Yeah, you really are. Is it like. But is that. I mean, like, is that the same thing as trying to get married and stuff? Like, kind of normativity, like, kind of like. Yeah, I mean, there's a Put on Dockers.

[B]

There's kind of. No, I don't think you have to wear doctors. I don't think. I'm not saying you have to dress a certain.

[A]

I grew up with a lot of Jewish guys that were dressing that Way. And we thought it was the coolest, what with their sagging and. Yeah, of course.

[B]

Oh. I mean, your generation.

[A]

My generation of Jewish guys, like, grew up on hip hop.

[B]

Yeah. But it's okay. You can get away with it.

[A]

Why? What are you saying?

[B]

Because white guys can get away with it.

[A]

They control the weather. Not Jews.

[B]

I mean, white people.

[A]

They control them. You're the one. That's. The media.

[B]

It's different than black kids who are. It's a different standard.

[A]

So you're saying I should be allowed to sag but not the black kids?

[B]

You should be allowed to say, that

[A]

doesn't sound fair to black kids.

[B]

It's okay for you and it's easier for you.

[A]

The sagging thing just.

[B]

And it's not gonna. People aren't gonna look on you as some sort of thug or punk because you're doing it.

[A]

I don't think sagging has been a thing for, like, 15 years.

[B]

I still see people doing it. But, yes, it hasn't been a thing for 15 years. You're right. And so that's when I, you know, when I said, that was 15 years ago.

[A]

But you go up on the subway to a kid, you're like, you know, this is from prison culture.

[B]

No, I don't. And this means that you would see people. You don't see people sagging still.

[A]

I don't look for it. I don't know. It's just normal. It's kind of. Who cares? It's one of the worst things.

[B]

I don't care. But if you ask me about it, I'm going to give you my opinion.

[A]

You're the one that's saying Jewish people should be allowed to do it and not black people.

[B]

Okay, I did not say that.

[A]

Maybe your husband said that on election night to you.

[B]

I did that.

[A]

Going back to the Oprah point. Like, like, I met. I was in an elevator with her once, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I used to always have this, like, kind of like, why the hell do people care so much about this lady? Like, telling you to read books and stuff? And I was in an elevator. I was like, it is. There's. She had. She's exciting. There's something so incredible about her. Right?

[B]

Yeah. And like.

[A]

Like coming from the south, going through news and then kind of getting to the top of media, like, who were, like, your inspirations independent of that? Like, when you were like, this is what I want in my career.

[B]

When I started those. This is pre Oprah. It would be like Bryant Gumbel or Max Robinson or even Peter Jennings, like, those were the books that I liked. And then there was a woman who was an inspiration in my town who I saw on television, and that kind of sealed the deal. And her name was Jean West.

[A]

She was local news.

[B]

She was a local newsletter lady. And then I saw her and I was like, oh, well, that's like my family. It's not like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I was like.

[A]

She was like, jimmy JJ Walker on the news.

[B]

Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. But that was the only representation we had.

[A]

I can't imagine anyone doing that on the news.

[B]

No, but I mean, you did not have. Yeah, I know, you know, people who looked like me for a lot of people who look like me on the news.

[A]

And she.

[B]

I saw her and I was like, oh, wow, she's amazing.

[A]

When were black people, like, did. Was that a later thing? In the 70s?

[B]

70s and yeah. Really came to prominence, like, more so in the 80s.

[A]

On the news.

[B]

On the news.

[A]

What a ridiculous place we live.

[B]

I know.

[A]

That's like, not long.

[B]

It wasn't that long ago.

[A]

And you were like, the first.

[B]

No, I'm old heading. You.

[A]

You're old head. You were the first gay anchor in, like, cable news.

[B]

Well, the first one. The first person who was really out was Rachel Maddow, but she wasn't Rachel Maddow like she is now. I mean, she was a big deal, and she was on msnbc. And I don't know if Rachel calls herself a journalist or a writer or whatever, but anyways, she was definitely a television host. And she was out, which was admirable. First she sent me flowers. She was like one of the first people you had to reach out and say, congratulations and you're gonna be great. So. Yeah. And then me and there was another

[A]

guy saying to me that, like, that's not like. I feel like everyone's getting. I feel like the entire Republican Party.

[B]

What's a big deal? But I mean, it's. It was a big deal back then. It's not a big deal now.

[A]

Nobody cares if you're covering, like, a figure that's like working to pass legislation that, like, would damage your community or take rights away from you. And you understood that they were gay. Gay. What is the. What is you without them?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is there, like, what is the line that you tow journalistically? Like, for what?

[B]

Outing someone?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, like, it's just like. I mean, my imagine in my imagination. Like, it's like a lot of these fellows are like, I don't think you

[B]

need to out someone if they're Not a hypocrite.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

So there's like nobody's.

[A]

All of the Republicans are.

[B]

Yeah. It's nobody's business. But if you are, you know, proposing legislation or enacting legislation that is, you know, the antithesis of what you're doing, then of course it should be called out.

[A]

Did you ever find yourself weighing that?

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

As a journalist where you saw like someone doing anti gay kind of legislation or something that you.

[B]

No, but I've had to report on it. I mean, there are lots of figures who are in the news, but I didn't know. Look, again, I'm not a D.C. reporter. I did not just report on politics, so I wasn't that into it. But there certainly were rumors about people and then you'd hear about them hitting on their interns or staffers and that kind of thing.

[A]

And then advocating for taking rights away from your community.

[B]

Yeah. It so happens people would say the more conservative they are, the more homophobic.

[A]

So would you consider pulling the trigger

[B]

if you're the more homophobic they are?

[A]

The gayer, I imagine. Because you're thinking about gay all day long, you're gay.

[B]

Which is true. Because if you just.

[A]

It's just the way you're thinking.

[B]

If you just allowed yourself to do it, you wouldn't have to think about

[A]

it, be happy and be rich. God forbid.

[B]

You think if you were gay, gay makes you rich and successful.

[A]

Yeah. You work harder.

[B]

Overachievers. Yeah.

[A]

You went into Cable 2006 then.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And so that was like end of Bush.

[B]

When I went into cable initially, like broadcast people looked down on cable and even some local people who, if you

[A]

work for, like trashy.

[B]

If you went. If you worked for a network which was a network owned and operated station, like if you worked for a WABC or WNBC or KNBC or whatever, these were the stations that the networks owned. Okay. That was considered prestigious. And then broadcast news was considered prestigious. And cable was like, not so cool. Not so prestigious. Anybody could work there. That was the perception. And they called it the Chicken Noodle Network by cnn.

[A]

Oh, that must have hurt.

[B]

But then that flipped. But actually it started to. It flipped under Trump.

[A]

Under Trump.

[B]

Because people. Yeah.

[A]

No way.

[B]

Yeah. Because it became more relevant and people.

[A]

Not during Obama. Fox News came up during kind of Bush and then into Obama. I feel like that's when it was over.

[B]

Yes. But the. I think the apex or whatever or the zenith of cable news was Maddow

[A]

telling my dad that Putin's trying to kill him. No.

[B]

No. Was George, Floyd, Covid and Trump all at the same time? Yeah.

[A]

You witnessed all of that?

[B]

As I saw the rise of cable news because people was on all day and so the Internet started to come in and people realized I don't have to wait until 5:00 clock or 6:00 clock or 6:30 to get the news. I don't have to just get the news on the morning show and then wait all day to get an evening broadcast. And so people just started watching more cable news.

[A]

It's kind of too much of the news.

[B]

Too much of the news. And then that's when cable became vogue in fashion. And then I just happened to be. It was just timing for me.

[A]

Yeah. Did you like.

[B]

I'd never watched CNN before I went to work there. I had no idea who the people were.

[A]

Did you have like a concept of like, we're part of an institution that is losing the public and we're desperate to like, keep their attention somewhat?

[B]

Like, wait, say again, What?

[A]

Like, like, did you feel like. Because the point we're at right now is that like, faith in traditional, like corporate media is like the lowest it's ever been. I feel like, like people just think it's. Everything's a lie and they, you know, people watch YouTube now, right.

[B]

It's the number one network.

[A]

Right. And it's like, did you feel it while you were in corporate media? Did you feel that grip loosening?

[B]

I did feel it loosening, but not as much as it had because I was still in a bubble. And when you're there, because you are so, you know, enmeshed in it, you think that everyone is paying attention. And so I would say, oh my gosh, you know, did you hear about. I'd be covering something all day and then I'd go hang out with friends or people and I would say, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they'd go, what's that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I think people, you know, especially in cable news, I think that everyone is paying attention to everything. And it's not so partially it is. I think, you know, Fox News kind of started it. You know, Roger Ailes kind of started the.

[A]

The goat.

[B]

Yeah. He kind of started people to the distrust in news because he inserted, you know, characters, right ring right wing characters into, you know, the primetime ecosystem. But part of it, it's partially our own fault. And I include myself as well.

[A]

Do you have a regret or is there something you look.

[B]

Well, I can't like criticize. I can't criticize corporate media because I was A part of it for such a long time. And it's only been, you know, three years since I've been gone from corporate news and people still associate me with it. But there were things that, you know, I probably could have done that would have helped.

[A]

But you could have saved the news.

[B]

Well, I think if I could have done honestly, and I don't probably at the time, I can't because I'm looking back now with a 20, 25 lens on 21, 20, 22, 23, when I was there, I think if I could do in that corporate structure what I do now, it would be much more beneficial for America, the world and the corporate structure. That's what they're missing. I think the folks in the corporate media should start hiring people like you and like me to come in and do. Yeah, but. Yeah, but they don't have to. You don't. They don't have to promote you as a news show. You can be a talk show on the pro, on the network.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, I think that because it's hard to. You have to. You have to untrade.

[A]

I'd probably get in trouble.

[B]

No, you would. You would get in trouble.

[A]

Me having the show here is that I have kind of creative autonomy.

[B]

But if they allowed you to do that, then they probably wouldn't. Yeah, they wouldn't. They wouldn't. But if they did, I think it would be much better for them. Yeah, they wouldn't lose revenue and viewers.

[A]

What do you think that shift is? When you say they need people that are doing more like what you're doing right now. What, what, what have you changed?

[B]

Well, they need people who are authentic. The thing that I, that I had to untrain myself and untrained and retrain myself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I used to second guess myself all the time. Like second, third, like before anything came out of my mouth, I was like,

[A]

okay, but that's good. It's the news. You have to.

[B]

Not always. Because then people at home aren't getting what they should be getting. And people, people. And you're not serving. It's not relatable because people at home aren't filtering themselves that much.

[A]

You're saying the presentation has to be authentic.

[B]

The presentation has to be.

[A]

And sometimes when you just let it rip, you need like sourcing and you

[B]

need like to be talking about source is a whole different thing. I'm not saying let it rip and lie. I'm saying have the conversations that people really have at home and that are more productive.

[A]

Do you miss the jussie Smollett story. I just miss it.

[B]

The Smollett story.

[A]

It was just so nice. When you think back to it, it's

[B]

like, wow, that was nice about. That was nothing nice.

[A]

He was just a liar.

[B]

He's a liar.

[A]

You say you. You got. You got attached to that somehow.

[B]

No, I got attached to that wrongfully because I never believed.

[A]

With Smollett.

[B]

That was a lie. Yeah, that was a lie.

[A]

Where you were. You were the third. It was the African brothers, and you. You were the third accessory. No, that's what I understand. No, I found that out on the.

[B]

No. You know, what happened is he. I knew him from. We had mutual friends from Harlem from the liar community, and I knew him. I knew. We knew it was a lie right away. Like, immediately I knew it was a lie.

[A]

How'd you know it was a.

[B]

He hates me because I called him out.

[A]

So you texted me, you said you,

[B]

but that's not out there in the narrative. Everyone thinks, like, oh, my God, like, no, he's a liar. No one believed it in Chicago at, like, 10 degrees outside, that someone is looking for Jussie Smollett with a noose and a MAGA hat. How would they even know who he was?

[A]

Well, because he's huge. Power is one of the biggest shows on television.

[B]

It's not Power. It was Empire.

[A]

Empire. Yeah.

[B]

So everyone was trying to get an interview with him, and I had his number, so I was trying to get an interview with him. And I said, jussie, come on. Nobody believes you. If you want to get your story out, you should. Come on. The cops don't believe you. People don't believe you. Come on and tell your story. That's what any journalist should be doing. And then. But he said, I didn't want to turn my phone over because I had texts from Don Lemon there. I don't care. I didn't give a fuck if they saw my text.

[A]

No, he was protecting you.

[B]

No, he's not protecting you.

[A]

He didn't say thank you to Jussie a little bit for.

[B]

There was nothing in there that would have gotten me in trouble trying to get an interview.

[A]

So you said they have you dignitarized to a liar.

[B]

I think he was just lying.

[A]

There's something nice about a liar like that, right?

[B]

You like that?

[A]

Like a gay liar. There's something charming, like, what's his name? From the Republican congressman? Santos. It's just.

[B]

There is a Santos effect.

[A]

There's something kind of just, like, great. It's like, this guy's Going for it with the lies.

[B]

I don't know if he has.

[A]

It can't last forever. It can't last forever. Right?

[B]

I know, but I don't know if he has to be gay. There are a lot of heterosexual liars.

[A]

No, but there's something funny or funnier. If it's like. Cause there's more. Do you think of Trump as, like, a campy figure or.

[B]

Trump is so gay.

[A]

Yeah. And it's. It's. It's. That's before.

[B]

You guys aren't surprised by that, are you?

[A]

He's marketed in terms of, like, machismo, but if you, like, look at, like, even the interior of the house is Liberace.

[B]

Look, he's taken over a gay anthem. Ymca. That's the gayest song ever.

[A]

The Cruising.

[B]

I can't even enjoy it anymore.

[A]

He's at. His song is a cruising for dick song.

[B]

At the ymca in the locker room.

[A]

I mean, it just must. You really should do a right wing pivot. It must be so fun.

[B]

You mean I should become a right wing.

[A]

First of all, the money's good.

[B]

Oh, I thought about your way.

[A]

The money's good. And, like, think about how much fun this batshit old queen is talking about.

[B]

You're about 15 years old, a golfer's

[A]

dick size, like, 100 years ago.

[B]

You're 15 years too late. Can you imagine if I had become. Everyone thought. Before Trump, people thought I was a black conservative on cnn.

[A]

I. I still think so.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I think you're a conservative in. In whatever. I have some better men's clothing.

[B]

I have some conservative leanings. I do.

[A]

But what are your main concerns? The pulling up the pants.

[B]

Well, that's.

[A]

Come on, you got to quit with that. It's not nice to the kids. Oh, I'm a rich guy. I'm a rich guy, and I'm telling you that you're probably his pants. Maybe it's just a bit. Maybe they're. It was a hand me down pants, and they're growing into it. You don't. Their butt cracks are holding them back in this world. Thomas, can I get a vape? Sorry.

[B]

Is there any water around this, too?

[A]

Yeah, let's get water. I want to get a velo. Actually, do you have a velo? No. I'll get a water. I'm sorry, Lemon. I was really cooking on that. This episode is brought to you by ebay live. Here's how it goes. First, you're just watching ebay live, seeing some rare finds, not even bidding, just lurking, and then you see A rare rookie card. Go for an absolute steal. A 90s handbag comes up and you have to jump in. Maybe put that rookie card in the handbag. Maybe you lose your first auction, you bid again and win. And that winning feeling, it's such a rush because you know everyone else wanted it too. Meanwhile, on ebay live, you don't just watch the action, you're in it. Download the ebay app to stream and shop live eBay, live things people love. Kane. Do gay guys like Bob Dylan? I've always wondered. I feel like. No.

[B]

Do gay guys like Bob Dylan?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. It's a good question.

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

No. Why?

[B]

What do you mean? Like, his music? Yeah, yeah. That's not something you're gonna dance.

[A]

He's like Streisand for me. He's my Streisand. Right. Yeah.

[B]

Gay men like Bob Dylan?

[A]

No, they like having fun and stuff. I like.

[B]

Oh, because Bob Dylan makes you sad.

[A]

No.

[B]

You want to be all weepy.

[A]

No, it's about like, you know, it's just. It feels like it's. I don't know.

[B]

What's your Bob Dylan song?

[A]

Every. Every single thing. I mean, like, you can't even. Brother, you can't even start. Is there a comp competition? Like, when you're at the top?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, there are such few spots. Right? Like, you were. Like, you were at, like. Do you want back in the game or.

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

You don't want back in the game?

[B]

No.

[A]

But you got the desk and stuff and the suit.

[B]

Yeah, but that's all rented.

[A]

Who cares? I mean, it's just. It's like. It's a. It's kind of a. I guess as legacy media fades, there is still a press. It's like why talk shows still exist.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No one's watching. Fucking late night. Right. But it's kind of this legacy media product that you just.

[B]

It's almost like people performing for themselves. Well, I don't know if Fallon's the

[A]

only one watching Fallon, but, you know, it's just kind of a thing you're supposed to have.

[B]

No, but a lot of the people who are watching are like, industry kind of. Industry kind of people who are still attached to that kind of. That kind of television, which is great. I mean, I love Jimmy Fallon. I know Jimmy. I know Kimmel.

[A]

He's a colleague.

[B]

Yeah. And. And Seth. But great shows and, you know, even the. The cable news, so people still watch it. Television has a prestige. It's gonna have it for a minute. But no, I get the Same. I get the same thing out of doing it the way that I do it that I did when I was there without a pretense.

[A]

It's just. You could say anything on this crap. Yeah, I have to stop myself because, like, now comedians, people think are smart.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm one of the dumbest guys ever. Right. And I could just say, Covid, transmission, vaccine. And then people would be like, it's on the. It's on the screen. Yeah, There must be something to it,

[B]

you know, But I think comedians perform a very important role in society. I do.

[A]

No, it's too much. They're making too much of it.

[B]

Well, I don't know. My friend DL is very important, I

[A]

think, from the community.

[B]

From the community. He's also. He also gives information and he's very political and he's in tune with the news. And I would watch him for.

[A]

Don't get the news from a comedian. Get it from the news.

[B]

Do you think that you're different than me? You think you're different than someone who's on television? We're all human beings. We're multifaceted. It's not like you're just a one note person. No one is.

[A]

I think seeing how, like, you remember, like, when a conspiracy theorist used to be, like, a guy that smelled like

[B]

pee at the library, or like your

[A]

uncle, it used to just be the smelliest, like, and he was wearing, like, a Vietnam jacket. And you're like, good luck with that library guy. Now it's literally nothing is real anymore. And I feel like that's really. It's. And things are happening so fast now.

[B]

That guy has a very successful podcast and makes millions of dollars.

[A]

No, that guy is still in the library smelling like, I should have. I could have done this. I could have been. That guy just still smells like piss. Well, I mean, it's. Do you find yourself, like, engaging with this as a beat or as, like, an area of focus? Do you find that, like, it infects your, like.

[B]

No, I don't engage in conspiracy theories on.

[A]

Well, but you're covering this on my show.

[B]

But. And I don't cover that. I don't cover that it was fake, but it's a lot of it. A lot of it is out there. And I believe you do have to have some sort of evidence or you become a conspiracy theorist. Like, people think that there were anomalies with the election. And so, okay, it's okay to think that, but no one is pushing it through and asking people to change votes because of it or you know, some investigation that's going to continue to go on and on and on forever when there's actually no evidence that it happened. But people do believe it.

[A]

So that's why I asked, what was it like being on the news January 6th?

[B]

Kind of surreal.

[A]

Because they thought they were gonna win.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They were running out of the building. They thought they were gonna beat the government.

[B]

They thought that they had won.

[A]

What do you mean win? They like smoked weed at the Capitol restaurant.

[B]

They won the election and therefore, you know, for just. It was justified.

[A]

They kind of did like pranks. When they got into the building, there was a guy who's like, I'm gonna fart on Pelosi's chair.

[B]

No, they did nothing.

[A]

Another guy took a podium.

[B]

No, they shit on stuff.

[A]

They pooped. I mean, that's kind of like they

[B]

pooped and peed on stuff.

[A]

It was one of the dumbest things that we've ever seen anyone try.

[B]

Well, isn't that kind of the point? And that's probably why they were pardoned. Because he realized, I think at some level that he co opted those poor people and that he manipulated them. No, he was probably, they're grown ass people.

[A]

But I'm gonna get this caveman out of Gitmo. Fuck you. I'm Trump.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you think he's ever gonna get in trouble for anything?

[B]

Um, no.

[A]

It's awesome.

[B]

Well, now, I mean, he's president, but if he wasn't president, he might be in an orange jumpsuit.

[A]

Come on. How many times we said that?

[B]

If he wasn't president, of course.

[A]

Teflon Don. He gets away with.

[B]

Well, he's gotten away with all of it pretty much.

[A]

He never gets in trouble.

[B]

Yeah, they throw all the cases out or they put them on hold.

[A]

He really defeated you guys.

[B]

I think I was never at war with him.

[A]

Well, what it is, was like the

[B]

media is there, but he actually did damage the media a lot. Trust in the media. Yeah.

[A]

Because the fact check never worked. Right. Because his followers know he's lying. Right. So it's like if they know he's lying, but they say he's lying for us.

[B]

No, I don't think his followers.

[A]

What is the purpose of like a. Like a check on that?

[B]

No, I don't think they know he's lying. They just think that. They don't care. So people never registers with.

[A]

I think they know he's lying.

[B]

I don't think that some of them understand that he's lying because they actually believe it. There are true believers out there, there are people who believe the economy is great and better right now.

[A]

Okay, so what did you hear about that? Was it fun on the island? Like, how many people went. You said. You said you knew.

[B]

On what?

[A]

The island?

[B]

What island?

[A]

Was it like the. Was it like steel drums? Like the Girls Gone Wild commercial?

[B]

What island are you talking about?

[A]

You know, the guy, the main. The boss.

[B]

You know, you say it.

[A]

Who? Mr. Epstein. Was he funny?

[B]

You know, you would have gotten on that plane if someone.

[A]

I would have been so impressed by the wealth, and then I would have gone there and be like, dershowitz, what are you doing? It's. I mean, that's another thing where it's like. It seems like there's been a break, right, between the maga, kind of. What is MAGA at this point? Like, if Marjorie Taylor Greene's like, I'm out. Like, what is it?

[B]

A lot of people are out. A lot of people are gonna. I think a lot of people are gonna fall out. I think she's kind of leading the way as an example, and I think she's more. At least for now. I don't see that she's lost any power.

[A]

You fuck with her?

[B]

No, not really. I mean, I see her for who she is, but I would sit down and talk to her.

[A]

Who is she? What's her vibe?

[B]

Like, she's a.

[A]

Is she funny?

[B]

No. She's a bigot. She's a loudmouth. She's smarter politically than I gave her credit for, but she has all those things that she did before she started saying the right thing, before the pivot.

[A]

How many times have you met the gentleman, Mr. Trump?

[B]

Oh, God, a lot. Ten, maybe. Yeah, I've interviewed him many times.

[A]

What do you make of him?

[B]

Look, he can be charming in person, but I find him to be very insecure. I just don't like liars. Lying is my thing. That's one of the only things that.

[A]

What's the last.

[B]

Don't ever lie to me. I don't lie.

[A]

Come on, bro.

[B]

I know I don't lie. That's one of my things I will tell you. I'd rather tell you the truth.

[A]

You were on the Communist News Network. You definitely lied.

[B]

Don't lie.

[A]

You've never told?

[B]

No, I have told a lie, but

[A]

I don't know how to think of the last lie you told.

[B]

Last time I lied, I think I told these guys I was excited to do this.

[A]

Shut up. I guess, like, what's your kind of project, like, moving forward? If you see your careers shifted Right. Like, what is the ambition? Right. And how does it. Like, where does it fit in? Where do you see yourself fitting it?

[B]

I would like to build my network and have some folks who are working for me. Correspondence everywhere and have my own little. Yeah, network or big network.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's it.

[A]

And then these guys.

[B]

Yeah, they're part of it.

[A]

Are you ready for on air?

[B]

They've been on air, We've been on air. What do you guys do?

[A]

What are your big hits, man?

[B]

The Cliff Farmers.

[A]

Yeah. We have a podcast that just went on TMZ. Oh, you got TMZ. That's big. Wait, you TMZ'd your own guys?

[B]

No.

[A]

Yes. Yes. Kinda.

[B]

Well, I didn't put it on.

[A]

We were also on irl. We went to the protest. We were interviewing people while he was in the studio. On tmz?

[B]

No, on my. On his TMZ clip.

[A]

The podcast. But we do like. We help with the. The live stream mainly. We went to the Chicago. In Chicago, covered the ice rays. He goes live in the. Where we go Congress.

[B]

Oh, we go to the Capitol, and we go live from the Capitol of the office buildings.

[A]

Are you gonna send one of these guys to a hurricane? See. See what they're made out of.

[B]

I think they'd be great.

[A]

He's.

[B]

He's from Florida. His dad actually did hurricane coverage.

[A]

Oh, you're Florida. You have the experience. But you look sturdier as a gentleman. You know, I think I can withstand those winds. Does he, like, bring you into a conference room and they have like a. Kind of a swamp fan, and he kind of tests you out, see if you're ready for the hurricane?

[B]

Yeah, that's actually his. That's the other.

[A]

You're not category four material, sir. Yeah.

[B]

His dad is a meteorologist. He's a weatherman.

[A]

Really?

[B]

So he does hurricane. His dad does hurricane Kurt. He was on this show, my show.

[A]

Should we get a weatherman?

[B]

You should.

[A]

You need one. I really appreciate your time. I think it must be like for you to have seen such a shift in your field. I think. I guess it's like, is there a course correction that's required? I mean, that's my main.

[B]

Kind of was left wondering, you know, getting pushed out of cnn, I think was the. A blessing in disguise because I got to, like. Not many people get to reinvent themselves later, and I get to reinvent myself.

[A]

What about for how people consume, like, the news, though?

[B]

Well, that's. Well, this is where people are consuming the news.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I want to be where the audience is, the audiences on social media and streaming are Digital. It's on YouTube, you know, no longer. Well, it's still there at the networks, but, you know, less, less so every day.

[A]

How do we, like, avoid, like, the lack of kind of formal editorial process that we can be exposed to?

[B]

What do you mean, how do we avoid it?

[A]

Like, I mean, online, you could say anything right now. You say Adam Freeland is, like, the fucking smartest guy in the world, and then some guy will see it's on a screen, he'll, like, believe it.

[B]

Adam Freeland is the smartest guy in the world.

[A]

Don Living. Thanks a lot, man. Thanks.

[B]

My brother. Sam.