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The Agile Brand with Greg Kihlström®: Expert Mode Marketing Technology, AI, & CX
#624: 2025 hiring strategies and how to plan with Sue Keith, Landrum Talent Solutions
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- [00:01]
Greg Kilstrom
What's the state of your website? If you're looking for a new digital experience platform or DXP to run your digital experiences, I have the book for you. The Agile Brand Guide to Digital Experience Platforms is part of my best selling series of MarTech books. In this book I explore and demystify DXPs and look at the roles a digital experience platform should play, the different types on the market, as well as how to initially evaluate platforms, then how to best implement a DXP once you've selected it. The book also features a forward from Rupali Jain, Chief Product Officer at leading DXP provider Optimizely, as well as several other thought leaders in the industry. Learn more and get a copy in print or digital now by going to the Agile Brand guide website at www.agilebrandguide.com.
- [00:48]
Sue Keith
The Agile Brand.
- [00:57]
Greg Kilstrom
Welcome to season seven of the Agile Brand where we discuss the trends and topics marketing leaders need to know. Stay curious, stay agile and join the top enterprise brands and martech platforms as we explore marketing technology, AI, E commerce and whatever's next for the Omnichannel customer experience. Together we'll discover what it takes to create an agile brand built for today and tomorrow and built for customers, employees and continued business growth. I'm your host Greg Kilstrom, advising Fortune 1000 brands on martech, AI and marketing operations. The Agile Brand Podcast is brought to you by Tech Systems, an industry leader in full stack technology services, talent services and real world application. For more information, go to teksystems.com to make sure you always get the latest episodes, please hit subscribe on the app you listen to podcasts on and leave us a rating so others can find us as well. Now onto the show as we move into 2025, are your hiring strategies aligned with the realities of the marketing job market or are you basing decisions on outdated assumptions? In this special episode brought to you by Landrum Talent Solutions, a national recruiting firm specializing in marketing and HR positions, we're going to talk about the current job market for marketing professionals, how, how businesses are responding in this post election year and what marketing leaders should know as AI continues to reshape the workforce. Joining me today is Sue Keith, Corporate Vice President at Landrum Talent Solutions. With deep expertise in navigating complex labor markets, sue has a front row seat to the evolving dynamics of marketing roles, hiring trends, and the broader implications of AI and economic uncertainty. Sue, welcome back to the show.
- [02:43]
Sue Keith
Thanks Greg. It's good to be back.
- [02:45]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, always, always great to talk with you here for Those that haven't heard one of our conversations before, do you mind giving a little background on you and your role at Landrum Talent Solutions?
- [02:56]
Sue Keith
Sure. Well, Landrum Talent is a national recruiting firm that specializes in two functional areas, marketing and hr. I lead our marketing practice and marketing the way we break up marketing and we think about it as the umbrella term, four categories, marketing, communications, product and creative. And we can help our clients with any type of hiring they need, whether it be full time h, contract positions or contract to perm. And all of our team are, we're all former marketers turn recruiters. So we like to say we speak the language and I think it makes us pretty good matchmakers.
- [03:24]
Greg Kilstrom
Great. Great. Well, yeah, so let's, let's dive in here. Obviously, you know, we're right at the top of the year. Lots of thinking about the, the months ahead. And I want to talk about a few things about the 2025 marketing job market. So let's first talk about what we're seeing in the media and reality of the job market. So, you know, there can be a gap between what gets reported and what's happening on the ground. From your perspective, what's the reality of the job market for knowledge workers as we kick off 2025?
- [03:58]
Sue Keith
So I feel like a bit of a broken record since I seem to say this every time we talk, but there's, there's been a real disconnect between the media's coverage of the job market and the reality for knowledge workers. And it's really, it's not entirely the media's fault. It's really how the jobs reports come out and the headlines are taken from that. Don't tell the whole story. And what I mean by that is retailers, restaurants, other industries that employ hourly workers are still struggling to find employees. We've all lived it, right, trying to go get service at somewhere. And this is largely what the monthly jobs reports address. But the reality is for white collar employees that the job market has been really tough for almost two years now. And that's what the media has largely missed. It's this nuance, or maybe it's probably, I would say it's bigger than a nuance. Although I am now starting to see coverage of what's being called the white collar recession. And so, for example, I read an article in the Washington Post a few weeks ago on this topic and I thought to myself, in fact, I probably said it aloud, scaring my dog. But I said, finally, someone is covering what's been so obvious to our firm for quite A while. And I guess to double down on this, the Post just published an article this week and this is the headline. Happy holidays. You're laid off. White collar workers bear the brunt of downturn. So we're finally getting some of the, what I call the reality covered. And I really should say that I take no joy in this coverage or this reality. But what I am is I'm relieved for all the talented marketers we talk to every day who are struggling to find a job, but yet all they keep seeing in the media is that the job market is super strong. Anyone who wants a job can get a job, and that's not their reality. So at least what they're experiencing and what we're seeing is finally getting some attention.
- [05:41]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, and I mean that's, you know, to your point, it's not good news, but it's, it's a step in the right direction because it's, it's accurate and maybe we can do more about it if we, if we know what's going on. Are there specific trends or roles within marketing that you know, either one, either in particularly high demand, despite what you're saying here, or maybe facing the greatest challenges in this, this white collar recession?
- [06:13]
Sue Keith
Yes, we're definitely seeing some trends. So as I mentioned, we support both full time and contract roles and contract to perm positions. And we've definitely seen an uptick in clients requesting interim support. So bringing in a contractor to do a role that maybe would have been hired as a full time position in more normal times. So you know, in many cases the marketing leader needs someone full time on his or her team, but just can't get the headcount approved. So they're getting creative and they're bringing on a contractor to do the work because it still needs to get done. And the way this is facilitated is typically the budget for contractors come out comes out of the CMOS marketing program budget versus an HR manager HR influenced headcount budget. So what CMOs are doing are they're striking a balance between investing in programs and investing in people to help execute those programs. So that's the trend when it comes to kind of the types of positions that our clients are asking us to help fill. So when we say when it comes to how we're looking at actually types of actual positions, the roles themselves, we've seen a renewed focus on both product marketing and partner marketing roles. Now both of these were really huge post Covid in say 21 and 22, but we've seen demand for those roles slow down over the past 18 months or so. What's really interesting is we attribute the renewed interest in these positions to the same reason we saw the increase right after Covid. So at that time, or at that time and now today, B2B demand, and for mostly in a B2B world, demand marketing has gotten harder than ever. And I actually heard someone refer to it as B2B inflation recently, which I think is a really good way of describing it. Yeah, what it means is you need even more touches, more content, more effort to book a meeting or get a prospect to convert, however you define conversion, which also means it's more expensive to do all these things. So just like we saw during COVID when demand gen tactics that had reliably worked pre pandemic suddenly stopped working so reliable, so reliably, we're seeing again a renewed focus back on product marketing. So do we have the right product? Do we really understand our buyer Personas? Have we missed a potential buyer segment? Do we have a strong product roadmap? Are there other use cases for our product we can monetize? And what's the competitive landscape look like? All those things, all those really important strategy and product questions. And then the same goes for partner marketing. You know, when we say, okay, well, selling through our direct channels has gotten even harder. Let's put a renewed focus on our partner channels to see if they can help fill that gap. And then really, at least to me, really most interesting is a focus back on event marketing roles. So, yes, event marketing that was left for dead after Covid is making a comeback. And it's again, it's for the same reasons. I just talked about why product and partner marketing roles are in vogue again. The CMOs we're talking to are saying one of their best demand gen channels has returned to being events. You know, do this B2B inflation, which is affecting all their other demand channels.
- [09:05]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, yeah. So let's talk a little bit about, you know, we've, we've looked at the, the job roles and everything. Let's talk about the business investments that these companies are making. So, you know, certainly just, just as we're seeing in the job market itself, election years are bringing some economic uncertainty. You know, there might be a little, a lot of uncertainty right now in a number of areas. How are companies approaching their overall 2025 investments in areas like technology, programs, people, and particularly in marketing? Are you seeing companies adopt kind of a wait and see approach or are they taking some proactive steps to kind of adapt to the current environment?
- [09:55]
Sue Keith
So I think the best way to describe the current environment is it's very interesting. There's so many reasons that is interesting. But, you know, so regardless how you feel about the election result itself, a Republican win is typically viewed by the business community as very favorable, which would then, to your point, typically invest in more investment in 2025. You know, new strategies, new technology, new people, meaning hiring. But we're seeing really mixed reactions. Some our clients are really bullish, while others are really hesitant because there are still some major uncertainties and they're taking more of that wait and see approach that you mentioned. So if you think about tariffs, potential reduction in the federal government, headcount in the federal government, the loss of immigrant workers, the global instability we're seeing in several areas around the world, there's just so much going on to create so many. It's, it's so much uncertainty. I was at a 2025 Venture Outlook conference this morning and one of the panelists who's a career investor said simply, things are messy right now and get ready for a roller coaster ride which is going to last for a while. So let's just say I'm not making any bets.
- [11:10]
Greg Kilstrom
Switching gears a little bit here. So, you know, there's uncertainty, there's certainly cutbacks in certain areas and certain types of, of jobs. That said, there, you know, there, there still is a job market there and still opportunities. How can marketing professionals stand out? And what is, you know, amidst the chaos, I don't know if it's more competitive, but just different type of competitive job market. Right.
- [11:41]
Sue Keith
Maybe chaos is better than messy. A little more accurate. Well, the first thing I want to say is to anyone listening who is job seeking, I know it's really been really hard. It's a lot of reallys, but it's really bad. It's been the most challenging job market I've seen in my 13 or so years in the recruiting industry. And so my advice to stand out, it's not a new idea. It's to network. Because when you're competing with 200 or 300 of your fellow marketers for the same job, you need to do something more than just submit an application. So you have to leverage your network, figure out who might be connected to someone at the company you're interested in, and ask for help. And I say that knowing that a lot of people are uncomfortable asking for help. But the irony is that most people like to help others, especially if you're playing into their ego by asking for their opinion or their advice. So, yeah, I would just say you have to network, you have to find connections. Don't be afraid to ask someone for a connection into a company or to another contact or just finding a way to get what I call your resume to a human.
- [12:47]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I, you know, I agree with you. It's like I, so I'm sometimes reluctant to, to say this or whatever, but I take a lot, quite a bit of time to talk with people that reach out to me and, and I've benefited so many times in my career from me reaching out to someone that, who had, they're way better, they have way better things to do than talk with me for 30 minutes and, and share their thoughts. But for some reason they did it and thank God they, you know, like, it was hugely beneficial to me. Try my best to, you know, to do the same to others. But you know, I'm, that's one case. Like there's so many people that are willing to do that. So, you know, I would just say, to mirror what you're saying, like, don't be afraid to do that. I mean, the worst case is maybe you get ignored or maybe they say, no, I don't have time or whatever. But like the, the best case is, yeah, you learn something. I mean, I, I learned something from every conversation I have, which is why I do a podcast actually, is to learn. So yeah, so long, long winded way of saying like, absolutely yes. I mean, you know, reach out to people and, and there, there's plenty of people that are more than willing to, to help on the, on the hiring side, you know, despite there being a lot of candidates out there looking for work, what advice would you give to the hiring managers who may be struggling to find the right talent for their team?
- [14:19]
Sue Keith
Still, I think my first answer is re. Or maybe my primary answer is reread your job descriptions. So here's what I mean by that. So we're finding that hiring managers are throwing everything they can into their job racks. And a good part of the reason for this is that as I mentioned, headcounts are squeezed or non existent net new. So the hiring manager is trying to find one person who can do two or three discrete functions that they normally would have hired two to three discrete people for. So this results in job descriptions are likely going to be impossible to fill if you're looking for someone who ticks every box, and especially if you're asking your internal recruiters to sort through what would be hundreds of applications, and they're not marketing practitioners so they can't be expected to parse out something in someone's resume that says, oh, I think it actually means they could do this. So what we tell our clients is you really need to identify the top three or four skills needed to be successful in the job. And that's hard. Right. Especially when you're trying to get three jobs in one. But it's really an important exercise. And then everything else becomes nice to have, so. Or what we call bonus points. And what that does is then it takes those hundreds of people have applied, and instead of looking for 17 things on every resume, you're looking for three or four. And then you can distill that down to a short list of potential contenders.
- [15:44]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I mean, you know, if. If everything's a priority, then nothing's a priority. Right? So you've got. You've got to make some. Some tough decisions, right?
- [15:54]
Sue Keith
Yeah. And, you know, ideally, this will help to streamline the hiring process, you know, making it less. All right, maybe slightly less painful for everyone involved.
- [16:02]
Greg Kilstrom
Totally, totally. Next thing I want to talk about, you know, the Show's running in 2025. In 2024, I had an unofficial rule that we had to mention AI every episode. I think I'm going to probably carry that through to 2025. We'll see. It's still early, but let's talk a little bit about AI and the marketing function because things continue to evolve. Last time you and I spoke, it was, you know, still, you know, things keep evolving. So, you know, as AI continues to transform marketing and the marketing function, how are you seeing it reshape the types of roles and skill sets that organizations are looking for in their teams?
- [16:43]
Sue Keith
Well, I think your unofficial role should become official. I mentioned I was at this venture conference breakfast this morning and there were, you know, the moderator tried to get people just come back to, like, more macro predictions for 2025 in terms of investment and is the dry powder going to start getting used and all that. But I think 90% of the conversation was about AI and understandably, it's causing a lot of angst for market. Well, it's causing a lot of angst for everybody, but it's certainly causing a lot of angst for marketers. I read a recent Gartner survey. I think it said something like 26% of marketers they surveyed expect to reduce headcount due to AI. So that doesn't sound great if you' you know, a marketer and especially if you're on the market and we're still Seeing most marketing teams using AI technology primarily to accelerate what I call content and creative production. So basically it's productivity tools. I can spit out more blog posts, I can do more design. However, the use of AI for more strategic purposes, marketing purposes is definitely growing and I think that's what 2025 is going to be about. You know, so examples doing a better job with your customer segmentation, which then leads you to do even more personalization and personalized targeting. You know, predictive analytics that help you model what prospects are more likely to buy and conversely what customers are more likely to churn. You can do better and faster SEO research to identify trending keywords. You can optimize your ad campaigns. For example, we met this cool startup at a digital marketing conference earlier this year and there's probably other companies doing this as well. But if you're saying running like 10 different creative versions on for Facebook, on a Facebook ads, that software will almost immediately figure out which of the creatives is working and which isn't and then you know, swap out the winners for the losers. So stuff like that, that would have taken, you know, at least days, if not weeks for all that the analysis to come back to say who's clicking on what you're doing in minutes now and making things, you know, your ad spend way that, that much more efficient. And then really hot right now is conversational marketing through chatbots and agents. And that's a whole other topic we could get into another time. But that's really big right now.
- [18:56]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think, you know, next time we talk, next quarter. Yeah, I think agents is, there's so much going on there. So yeah, lots to talk about there. Are there AI related skills or technologies that the hiring managers out there should prioritize when they're evaluating? Just trying to think, think a few steps ahead. Yeah.
- [19:17]
Sue Keith
At this point I don't think hiring managers should be expecting to find an AI or marketing AI expert. In fact, I would argue there's no such thing because the technology keeps changing. Yeah, but I think as a hiring manager you should be looking for curiosity around AI and a proactive willingness to figure out what's out there that they can't help that candidate do if they were to get the job, do the job better. You know, I tell job seekers that while they can't be expected to be fluent in AI, they should certainly be keeping up with the changes and the various use cases so they can at least be conversant about AI during interviews.
- [19:54]
Greg Kilstrom
Makes sense. So last thing I want to Talk about is just, you know, a little, a little preparing for the, for the future. And again, despite chaos, uncertainty, there's still going to be hiring happening and all that in the, in the months ahead. What should marketing leaders keep in mind as they plan their hiring strategies to account for, you know, things like AI's growing role in the function?
- [20:21]
Sue Keith
I say be ready. And what I mean by that is be ready to be asked by your management team or your board or your investors how you plan to leverage AI to do your team's jobs or your team's function more efficiently. And then what does that mean in terms of headcount and ultimately your hiring plans? Much is being made right now about AI reducing the need for new hires. And that's what CEOs, CFOs, boards are hearing. It's not necessarily true in most cases, at least not yet. But marketing leaders need to be prepared to fend not only their net new hiring requests, but also the sizes of their current teams because they're going to get asked, can you do more with fewer?
- [21:04]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah. And for those organizations that, you know, they have existing marketing teams, but you know, they're not necessarily as up to speed as they could be on AI related things. How can they upskill their existing teams and make sure they're staying, you know, staying in pace and remaining competitive?
- [21:27]
Sue Keith
Yeah, well, the CMOs we've talked to, they're doing several things. You know, some are bringing in AI experts to train their teams on what's out there and what tools to be on the lookout for and how to leverage them and how they can be incorporated into the marketing, both strategy and execution. Some have required their staff to use at least one AI tool in their job and then report back to the team on a period basis. Basically the CMO said, I don't care what you do, just use something and then bring those learnings back to us. You could call it a proof of concept, which I think is a really cool idea. Then others are designating what they're calling AI champions within their team. So it's, it's people on their teams who've shown an interest or hand raisers say, I'm really interested in this AI thing. And then that person can make sure the marketing team remains current on how AI can be used to complement and or augment their marketing program. So no one can know all of this. I've been encouraged by the way different marketing leaders are doing things. They recognize that this thing's coming or it's really here, so what can we do? To make sure our team stays up to date and is leveraging the tools so that we can demonstrate. We're trying to. If you can't be not ahead of this, you're at least at pace with it.
- [22:42]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, yeah, I love it. Well sue, always great to talk with you. One last question I ask everybody here. What do you do to stay agile in your role and how do you find a way to do it consistently?
- [22:54]
Sue Keith
I love that you asked that. Our firm's competitive differentiator is is that we know marketing better than any other recruiting firm out there. And so how do I make sure I stay agile and then deliver on that promise? Well, I talk to marketers, so I talk to marketing leaders who are hiring, talk to marketing candidates who are job seeking. So basically for my job I get to talk marketing strategy, marketing tactics. Org structures more tech platforms, you know, with really smart people every day. So not only does this help me stay agile myself, but it means I'm able to bring these insights I get from all these other marketers that I talk to across industries, across functions. I can bring these insights to bear when we're advising clients on how to organize their teams, identify skill caps they need to address, or identify even what type of hire do they need? Is it really kind of a short term contract need or is this a full time position you truly need? Or perhaps something in between like contract to perm?
- [23:49]
Greg Kilstrom
Well, thanks Sue Again I'd like to thank Sue Keith, Corporate Vice President at Landrum Talent Solutions for joining the show. You can learn more about sue and Landrum Talent Solutions by following the links in the show notes. Thanks again for listening to the Agile Brand brought to you by Tech Systems. If you enjoyed the show, please take a minute to subscribe and leave us a rating so that others can find the show as well. You can access more episodes of the show@theagile brand.com that's theagile brand.com and contact me. If you're interested in consulting or or advisory services or are looking for a speaker for your next event, go to www.gregkillstrom.com that's G R E G K I H L S t r o m.com the Agile brand is produced by Missing Link, a Latina owned strategy driven, creatively fueled production co op. From ideation to creation, they craft human connections through intelligent, engaging and and informative content. Until next time, stay curious and stay agile.
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Sue Keith
The Agile Brand.