#640: Measuring the ROI on Out of Home with Jeremy Flynn from Clear Channel Outdoor

Summary

Podcast Summary: Episode #640 – Measuring the ROI on Out of Home with Jeremy Flynn from Clear Channel Outdoor

Introduction

In Episode #640 of The Agile Brand with Greg Kihlström®, host Greg Kihlström engages in an insightful conversation with Jeremy Flynn, Senior Vice President of Data Products and Strategy at Clear Channel Outdoor. Released on February 19, 2025, this episode delves into the evolving landscape of Out of Home (OOH) advertising, emphasizing the integration of audience targeting, measurement of ROI, and navigating data privacy challenges.

Jeremy Flynn’s Background and Role

Jeremy Flynn brings a wealth of experience to the discussion, having spent eight years at Clear Channel Outdoor prior to his tenure at the Palo Alto-based startup, Share This. At Share This, he focused on building a robust publisher network encompassing over 4 million websites, managing a share-to-social channels feature, and developing a data business—a pivotal role during the era when "data was the new oil."

“I've been with Clear Channel for about eight years, focusing on audience and measurement solutions in OOH, an area ripe for disruption.” [02:40]

Audience Targeting in OOH Advertising

Flynn elucidates how Clear Channel's analytics suite, Radar, leverages mobile location and identity data to comprehend consumer behaviors throughout their day. This capability allows brands to understand the impact of OOH exposures—be it at a bus shelter, roadside billboard, or airport advertisement—and correlate these exposures with subsequent consumer actions like visiting a retail location or engaging online.

“We assign about 4,500 audience attributes to every OOH unit in the market, aligning them with the same behaviors digital marketers use.” [05:00]

This approach aims to make OOH advertising as planable and addressable as digital channels, empowering brands to seamlessly integrate offline audiences into their broader marketing strategies.

Common Misconceptions about OOH Advertising

One prevalent misconception Flynn addresses is the belief that OOH advertising lacks measurability. He emphatically counters this by highlighting how modern OOH can deliver tangible outcomes beyond mere brand awareness, especially in an environment plagued by digital ad fraud.

“Out of home is finally getting a chance to shine in the true omnichannel plan, provided simplicity in measurement and targeting is ensured.” [07:29]

Integrating OOH into Multichannel Strategies

Flynn advocates for viewing OOH as a mass media channel that effectively complements fragmented digital landscapes. He emphasizes OOH's unique position to deliver both top-of-the-funnel awareness and assist in driving conversions, acting as an accelerator within a multichannel media mix.

“Out of home can be seen as an accelerator, amplifying the successes of your other media investments.” [09:06]

Measuring the ROI of OOH

The discussion delves deep into the methodologies for measuring OOH effectiveness. Flynn explains the importance of incrementality—adding incremental reach through mass media channels like OOH—and the integration of Multi-Touch Attribution (MTA) and Media Mix Modeling (MMM) to assess OOH’s impact on assisted and unattributed conversions.

“We participate in MTA models and believe the best measurement is a hybrid of MTA and MMM.” [10:45]

He underscores the need for more sophisticated measurement techniques to accurately attribute consumer actions to OOH exposures, highlighting scenarios where OOH influences immediate purchase decisions.

Data Privacy and OOH Advertising

In the context of increasing data privacy concerns, Flynn outlines how OOH advertising inherently fosters trust within communities. Unlike digital channels that often grapple with data privacy issues, OOH operates within physical spaces, establishing organic trust through repeated, non-intrusive interactions.

“Out of home uniquely establishes trust within the community, acting as a pillar of corporate social responsibility.” [14:00]

He also touches upon Clear Channel’s integration with data clean rooms, enabling brands to maintain ownership and control over their data while ensuring privacy-safe collaboration with media partners.

“We are integrated with data clean rooms to help brands take ownership of their data in a privacy-safe manner.” [17:04]

The Role of Creativity in OOH Campaigns

Flynn highlights the indispensable role of creativity in OOH advertising, asserting that effective creative strategies can elevate campaign performance. He emphasizes an "arts and sciences" approach, where data informs creative decisions to resonate with target audiences and drive business outcomes.

“The right creative can take a campaign to the next level, while the wrong creative can cause it to fall flat.” [18:11]

Brand Safety in OOH vs. Other Channels

Addressing brand safety, Flynn contrasts OOH with digital media, pointing out that OOH inherently avoids issues like digital ad fraud and ensures that advertisements reach real, engaged audiences. He underscores the transparency and accountability inherent in OOH, where marketers can physically verify their campaigns.

“In OOH, the only viewability issue might be a tree partially obscuring a billboard, which is a far cry from digital malfeasance.” [20:59]

Recommendations for Brands: Transparency and Accountability

Flynn advises brands to prioritize data integrity and establish robust measurement frameworks. He emphasizes the importance of partnering with trustworthy media owners, asking the right questions, and defining clear success metrics to ensure accountability and maximize campaign effectiveness.

“Set up the right accountability framework and partner with those you trust to define what success looks like.” [23:14]

Staying Agile: Jeremy Flynn’s Personal Strategies

When discussing agility, Flynn shares his commitment to continuous learning through reading both fiction and nonfiction. He believes that absorbing diverse concepts allows for the application of fresh ideas to drive both short-term revenue and long-term enterprise value.

“Always be learning. Reading diverse materials helps me apply new strategies to stay agile in my role.” [25:08]

Conclusion

Jeremy Flynn’s insights shed light on the transformative potential of OOH advertising in today’s multichannel marketing environment. By integrating robust data analytics, ensuring measurability, prioritizing data privacy, and maintaining creative excellence, OOH can significantly enhance brand strategies and deliver meaningful ROI.

“Out of home is a brand-safe, fraud-free, community-based media that continues to evolve with new measurement and targeting solutions.” [22:16]

For more information about Jeremy Flynn and Clear Channel Outdoor, listeners are encouraged to follow the links provided in the show notes.

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Notable Quotes:

• “We assign about 4,500 audience attributes to every OOH unit in the market, aligning them with the same behaviors digital marketers use.” – Jeremy Flynn [05:00]

• “Out of home is finally getting a chance to shine in the true omnichannel plan, provided simplicity in measurement and targeting is ensured.” – Jeremy Flynn [07:29]

• “The right creative can take a campaign to the next level, while the wrong creative can cause it to fall flat.” – Jeremy Flynn [18:11]

Resources:

• Clear Channel Outdoor: www.clearchannel.com
• The Agile Brand Website: www.agilebrandguide.com
• Greg Kihlström’s Consulting Services: www.gregkillstrom.com

Transcript

[Author]

Your brand may be staying on top of current trends, but are you agile enough to stay relevant, resilient and successful as customers, competition and the world continues to change at a breakneck pace? I'm thrilled to share the newly revised version of my first book, the Agile Brand. I'm calling it the Agile Brand Revisited. It's been updated to reflect our continually changing world and it provides seven principles that form the backbone of an agile brand, offering detailed insights and actionable steps for incorporating them into your business strategy. This is the book that started it all and I'm excited to share it with you. It's now available in print and digital formats and available everywhere. Learn more by going to the Agile Brand guide website at www.agilebrandguide.com.

[Jeremy Flynn]

The Agile Brand.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Welcome to season seven of the Agile Brand where we discuss the trend, trends and topics marketing leaders need to know. Stay curious, stay agile and join the top enterprise brands and martech platforms as we explore marketing technology, AI, E commerce, and whatever's next for the omnichannel customer experience. Together we'll discover what it takes to create an agile brand built for today and tomorrow and built for customers, employees and continued business growth. I'm your host Greg Kilstrom, advising Fortune 1000 brands on martech, AI and marketing operations. The Agile Brand Podcast is brought to you by Tech Systems, an industry leader in full stack technology services, talent services and real world application. For more information, go to teksystems.com to make sure you always get the latest episodes, please hit subscribe on the app you listen to podcasts on and leave us a rating so others can find us as well. Now onto the show.

[Host]

Is audience targeting just for digital and tv? In a privacy conscious world, are there.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Better, safer ways to reach your customers?

[Host]

Joining us today is Jeremy Flynn, Senior Vice President of Data Products and Strategy at Clear Channel Outdoor. Jeremy is at the forefront of innovating out of home advertising, helping brands navigate modern marketing challenges by enhancing the value of their media investments. With a deep understanding of privacy conscious solutions, audience targeting and brand safety, Jeremy's going to share some insights that are.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Vital for brands looking to thrive in.

[Host]

Today'S evolving ad environment. Welcome to the show Jeremy.

[Jeremy Flynn]

Thank you Greg. Thanks for having me.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Yeah, looking forward to this.

[Host]

Before we dive in though, why don't we get started with you telling a little more about your background and your role at Clear Channel Outdoor?

[Jeremy Flynn]

Sure. So Jeremy Flynn, I'm the Senior Vice President of Data Products and strategy at ClearChannel. Been here for about eight years and prior to that I was actually working in digital advertising. I was at a startup company called Share this. We were headquartered in Palo Alto, and there I was focused on building out a really good publisher network. We were on about 4 million websites. We had that little share this code that let you share to different social channels. Facebook, Twitter, Twitter at the time. And we had a publishing business, a media business, and a data business. About eight years ago, Data was the new oil looking to build A data business typically involved strong exit opportunities. And so I was excited to work in Silicon Valley at a startup doing that. And then I got a call saying, do you want to build audience and measurement solutions in out of Poem? And that just really felt like the next area to disrupt. I think the biggest challenge in out of Poem has been kind of the measurement question and the opportunity to kind of roll up your sleeves and build solutions for that seemed too compelling to pass. And that was eight years ago. And the work is still, still underway. And it definitely is shifting our industry in a really strong direction. I'm really happy to be a part of that.

[Host]

Great, great. Well, yeah, and that's a, that's a great, great segue to what we're going to talk about here, and we're going to talk about it in a few different ways. But I want to start with that idea of disruption and innovation in out of home advertising. You know, not necessarily the first place you think about for innovation and measurement and all those things. So let's, let's start by talking about audience targeting, you know, which has traditionally been associated with digital tv, you know, some other things. How does, how does out of home integrate audience targeting?

[Jeremy Flynn]

Sure. So at Clear Channel, I oversee an analytics suite called Radar. And within Radar, what we do is we productize mobile location data and identity data to understand consumers and how they move throughout their day and the different behaviors that they exhibit. And so with that, you, you can start to do some really interesting things with exposure to out of home inventory. So whether it is a roadside bulletin or a bus shelter or even at an airport, you could start to understand how consumers are traveling throughout the day and the behaviors that. That we can then observe them doing after they have been exposed to our advertising. So whether that be a visit to a retail location or going online to a website, or even downloading an app, we do have the ability to work with data to understand. All right, someone has seen this campaign. This is the action that they have taken with respect to audience targeting. We have the ability to look back at that data. So, so we, the way that we've set up our products has to look backwards and start to say, all right, over the last certain period of time, what were the repeat behaviors that we've actually observed in market offline? And with that, we've been able to actually assign audience attributes to all of our billboards. We've got about 4,500 audience attributes for every single out of home unit that we actually have in market today. And they're the same behaviors that digital marketers use to plan. Plan their online advertising. So part of, part of what I, I'm trying to do here at Clear Channel is just to make out of them as analogous and planable and addressable as if you were a digital marketer. And that that not only means using audiences that you use online, but also custom audiences based on a brand's preferred data set.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jeremy Flynn]

It could be their first party audience, their second party audience, their third party audience. So setting up the pipes to, to be able to do that is really kind of putting the power back in the brands and advertisers hands to say, hey, if I'm seeing success with this audience target on my CTV campaign or my digital campaign, or I've reached a point of diminished returns on ctv, whether it's measurement or audience scale, let me find that incremental offline audience without a home. So that was a long answer to your question, but it's an area of passion.

[Host]

Well, yeah, definitely. And yeah, I mean, I was looking forward to this conversation today because for the very reason I talk with a lot of digital marketers, I talk with a lot of marketers that, you know, they talk about omnichannel marketing and you know, most of the time when they talk about personalization and targeting and measurement, they talk, they say omnichannel, but they really are kind of referring to a few channels that are mostly digital and stuff. So, you know, I was looking forward to talk about this because, you know, I think there's a lot of misconceptions that brands have you touched on on some of those things, but I'd love for you to just dive in a little deeper of like, what are some of the biggest misconceptions that you run into from brands?

[Jeremy Flynn]

Yeah, I think, I think the number one is, is out of home even measurable? And the answer is emphatically yes. Can out of home deliver outcomes beyond why I just purchased it, which, which is usually for a product launch or a top of the funnel awareness play? The answer is yes. And so talking to brand marketers who are frankly exhausted by the lack of performance of the traditional channels that they're invested in, looking to find additional ways of reaching their customers in an environment that is ripe with fraud and just malpractice when it comes to offering solutions to advertisers. Out of home has kind of become this really nice medium that is finally getting a chance to shine in kind of the true omnichannel plan. But that, but that only happens if simplicity is there.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jeremy Flynn]

If it's simple to measure and if it's simple to, to plan and target. And so that's why I think the work has been really on out of home product people, technologists to make those solutions available for brand marketers because they will spend where it's easy to spend and they will continue to spend and grow where they see outcomes for their business.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah, well, and to go back to the omnichannel concept, I mean most brands are going to be advertising across, you know, not, not just a, not just out of home or not just, you know, digital display or something like that. So, you know, how do you recommend that brands think about integrating out of home with some of the other channels to create this like cohesive multichannel strategy?

[Jeremy Flynn]

Great, great. Question one. I would think about it as a mass media. It is one of the true remaining mass medias that exist and it doesn't encounter the general challenges that this fragmented media landscape now has. Right. It has the ability to be always on. It has the ability to be a part of a community. And then at least from a measurement perspective, which is another view I have into how well out of thumb does. It has the ability to deliver two aspects of the marketing funnel.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jeremy Flynn]

It could deliver top of the funnel outcomes.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jeremy Flynn]

Could literally drive brand awareness better than a lot of traditional media can today with the loss of their audiences. And because it's now more measurable, it actually can be proven to be just as cost effective at driving acquisition goals, driving not necessarily direct response goals because you can't click on a billboard, but it can assist in conversions. And so it is a velocity channel where if you want to amplify the work that you're doing and in fact there's a lot that, that speaks to how out of poem drives the success in other investments that you are making. Right. So it's, it's, it's an accelerator. So that's, that's how I would say how you should consider out of poem like in, in, in the media mix.

[Host]

Yeah. And then from a, from a measurement approach you mentioned, incremental is, you know, is some Kind of like media mix modeling or you know, how, what's the best way to, to, to tell the effectiveness? Cause to your point, I mean, there could be a QR code perhaps, but like you're not clicking on a billboard, but to your other points it's measurable, right?

[Jeremy Flynn]

Yeah. Well, let's talk first about incrementality, right? You set up a digital ad buy, you set up a CTD buy, you're typically given the reach frequency of that media plan and then you run that plan and then you hit full delivery. Right. As a brand marketer, you're always looking to hit newer audiences beyond the ones that you are targeting. When you're doing digital media, right. That's one to one target. When you're running out of phone, that's a one to many target. So by definition you're actually going to add incremental reach to whatever plan because you're leveraging a mass media with respect to measurability. This is where there's a lot of really great work being done in our industry. At Clear Channel, we're proud to be able to use radar to participate in MTA models as well as MMM models. And in fact, the best measurement work in my opinion is kind of a hybrid of the two. You want MTA to really show how record level data is showing how out of home drives assisted conversions deterministically and how it plugs into other, maybe more individual record level measurement solutions that other media channels could provide. So now you can see the consumer across the various touch points of being exposed to multiple media channels. And that's really great work that highlights how well out of home drives assisted conversions, but also unattributed conversions right out of home never gets credit for driving unattributed visits or unattributed conversions. But consider this, like if you're on the highway and you're hungry and the last billboard that you see is, is a, is a billboard for a McDonald's or a burger King or a Wendy's or an out burger. And you take that next exit. That's literally the last impression that as a consumer you are seeing before going to that store. Do you get that credit? I don't know.

[Host]

Right.

[Jeremy Flynn]

How do we get better at doing that? So I think we absolutely participate in MTA in that way. In terms of mmm, that's where the jury is still out. There's a lot of work in terms of how out of home data can plug into omnichannel media mix planning. And we're starting to do some research and development on how that best participates. And that's where we really look with partners as a media owner on the buy side to test data that is being developed right now for our industry.

[Host]

So you know, with all the tracking and audience targeting, you know, there's in the, in the digital world with third party cookies and you know, whether or not, you know, the cookiepocalypse was happening and then it got delayed and delayed and you know, it's a little up in the air. Exactly what's, what's going to happen perhaps, but consumer data privacy is a, is a big concern and it hinders the way that marketers can reach out. In some ways it's that certainly I'm in favor of good data privacy practices, but you know, with, with all of this and with privacy conscious consumers and brands needing to be more privacy conscious, you know, how does out of Home play in this mix?

[Jeremy Flynn]

One thing that I think out of home uniquely does is it participates in the community in which it lives. So in a very unique way it establishes trust in the community. And not as aggressively as some other media tries to do. We are a part of people's commutes, we are a part of the repeated journeys that they take throughout their day. And as such, in order for our media to survive, we actually have to have very close relationships with local governments and local municipalities. And I'm really proud of the work that when there are times of natural disaster, people look at the billboards in their community to guide them to safety. And I think that the other way to think about privacy is trust.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jeremy Flynn]

And so I think adaptome does a really good job establishing trust within the community where it exists. And as a business that is like a pillar that we have in terms of being good corporate, social, responsible actors. So I think that that's part one, I think part two, because you kind of alluded at the cookie question, I think that's in part a strategy. When you say things are coming and you say things are going away, like Google's competition is developing business plans to adapt to whatever ecosystem to come next and when, when, when that changes, that that change is intentionally disruptive and slows down competitors for, for digital investments. I think because we don't need to play in that world, we've been able to be focused on, on solutions. And I think that like if all data Went Away is the most contextually relevant media channel. It exists in a physical location that reaches a certain type of population in that location. And I like to think that if we had the most stringent privacy laws, which we should have, then Atafarm actually even gets a fairer shot at showing how well it can perform in brand campaigns. I think the last thing I'll say on it is what the question of privacy is also doing is it's not only about consumer trust, it's also about just ownership of data like whether and where it resides. And I think what we're starting to see now in our industry is brands and advertisers saying hey, I actually need to take more control or ownership of the data that like I am generating for my business. And they are also equally focused on leveraging that data to collaborate with marketers for better performing campaigns. And so cookies were effectively like a lazy solve for that and a technique where people in our industry work together to drive really good campaigns. I think that that's still going to happen, but it's going to happen in a slightly different way with different techniques. And what's cool about that, at least for out of home is we'll be a part of whatever those new techniques are.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jeremy Flynn]

And so as an example, we're the only out of home media owner at Clear Channel that's integrated with the data clean rooms because we believe that brands are going to like take ownership of their data but they're still going to want to work with other, other media owners to help better plan and, and target their, their own campaigns in a privacy safe way. And we want to enable that. At the same time, by definition we are a brand safe, fraud, free, right, community based, local first media. So yeah, winded answer to your very important question.

[Host]

Yeah, no, I mean there's definitely a lot to consider there and you know, all the talk about data and privacy, there's also a creative component to this as well. Right. So you know, balancing all of those things that you know, it's got to be the right, at the right place at the right time, of course, but we're also talking about a fundamentally creative medium and you know, where does the power of creativity come into, you know, all, all of this?

[Jeremy Flynn]

I, I mean I think at the end of the day you could have as well of a planned campaign as possible and if it has the right creative, it takes that campaign to the next level and it has the wrong creative, it can really kind of fall down. And so it's absolutely an integral part. There's definitely an arts and sciences approach. I'm on the data side so I'm not a creative expert to be clear, but I like that there's this Quote that I kind of came across which talks about data doesn't always give you the right answer, but it does tell you what to do next. And I like thinking about how that applies to creative in the sense of understanding how creative resonates with certain customers, how it plays on like their, their behaviors, their long term decision making. Right. Their brand affinity. And, and when you consider, to consider those, those kind of emotional factors. Right. That's, that's where, where creative can actually drive outcomes, business outcomes. Because we obviously are in a period of, of economic uncertainty. People will return to the brands that they trust. But then how do you actually run campaigns to establish that trust? Right. You see Apple running like their campaigns that are just almost solely based on privacy. But there are other brands that are doing, I think really interesting things with creative and having like banner years focusing on a creative first strategy.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jeremy Flynn]

So there's definitely a play in that in terms of how we're trying to incorporate data on, on our side, we are constantly issuing measurement programs that test for awareness, whether it's aided or unaided. And really kind of aligning that with the really rigorous exposure data that we, that we also can, can use to say, all right, does aided awareness to this creative actually drive like a sale? Right. And so like I'm trying to marry the two, but sometimes creative could stand by itself and sometimes data could stand by itself. And I like being able to operate with those competing thoughts separately sometimes.

[Host]

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I mean I definitely agree that they work together. And sometimes the kind of, to what you're saying, sometimes the ratio is a little more weighted on one side or the other perhaps. So agree in those cases of the creative. Another thing that you had mentioned briefly is the concept of brand safety. And you know, certainly that's a significant concern for marketers and brand folks. How does out of home help address some of these concerns? And how does this maybe compare with some other channels?

[Jeremy Flynn]

Yeah, no, it's a great, great question. I just taking it from an economic lens for a second, tens of billions of dollars a year, if not $100 billion in the US alone are fraudulent impressions that, that otherwise be put in a medium that could reach real people in the real world to help get your message out there. And so from just purely an economic and financial lens, it is like malfeasance to like allow for that fraud and waste to occur when you have a responsibility to like take those dollars and put them into places that like could actually reach real customers. I would answer that first and foremost, I would say I came from the digital world where viewability and VCPMs were the thing that we had to solve for technically. And I'm happy to be working in an industry where our only viewability issue is if a tree sometimes grows in front of our billboard and how we actually have to pare back the branches so that our ad can be seen. Like, that's actually just like, such a pleasant experience when it comes to. Comes to that.

[Host]

Maybe not for the tree, but, you know, maybe not.

[Co-Host]

Not for. Oh, no, no. We work with the local community to.

[Jeremy Flynn]

Make sure that we're doing that in the, in the right way. But yeah, it's. It's a, It's a big. It's a big reason why I think a lot of people who I end up bringing into the organization who come from digital backgrounds are like, wow, I actually see the campaign that I worked on and, like, I would challenge a lot of people maybe listening to this podcast, like, when they think about, like.

[Co-Host]

A campaign that they spent a lot.

[Jeremy Flynn]

Of hours on, like, if it's run on another media channel, do they actually see it? Like, and I talk time and time again to folks on my team. They're like, yeah, I was out for a drive and I saw the thing that we're actually measuring, or this was the audience that we used to get this campaign live. And like, I don't know, there's that, there's that, like, very fulfilling aspect that drives people's satisfaction with working in, out of home and, and for. And away from, like, serious issues that exist in other. Other media.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah, agreed. Yeah, it's the, you know, it's, it's. There's transparency and there's accountability. Right. You know, what's your recommendation for brands to get the most out of their. Their partnerships in terms of transparency and accountability?

[Jeremy Flynn]

Just data and trust and setting up the right measurement and testing apparatus and like, being nimble and flexible to test other. Other media where, where you start to see kind of things flatlining or falling short. I'll tie it into, like, topical news, which is the, the TikTok ban, right? Which is it? Is it coming? Is it staying? Is it going? And I saw a marketer post online saying, guys, there was a time where none of the social media networks even existed and marketers, like, still were able to do their jobs. And this is a reminder of how you kind of have to remain agile and nimble and be able to, like, test many different channels. And so I think the thing that I would recommend is, like, you got to set up the Right Accountability framework, but the right accounting for that to like actually say, all right, this is successful up until this point. And, and you have to find partners that you, that you trust.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jeremy Flynn]

And that, that also really matters. And that's why I think making sure you're asking the right questions of any partner, making sure that you're getting referrals about working with any partner also matters and then making sure that you, you are not doing any work unless you have like a definition of like what success is and, and implementing those practices.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Yeah.

[Host]

Yeah, I love it. Well, Jeremy, thanks so much for joining. One last question for you before we wrap up. I like to ask everybody, what do you do to stay agile in your role and how do you find a way to do it consistently?

[Jeremy Flynn]

Oh, good question. I think always be, always be learning. I really like to read a lot of fiction books, but also nonfiction. And I think it's important to find things to read that you like, want to apply like in the moment. And so like finding books that like, you may not necessarily relate to your day to day job, but like, are of an interesting topic, you'd be surprised to find like the passages that you read in those books, you're like, oh, okay, like I'm just gonna try all this one that my team, if they actually listen to this will, might laugh at me on. But there's, there's. In the 1950s, a guy wrote a book about strategy where he talks about the foxes and the hedgehogs and how like, hedgehogs are myopic in their focus and they need to like move ahead towards a single goal and a single vision. And foxes are kind of tinkering and tailoring and trying different strategies and, and it's really the combination of the two that actually drive towards like, like the best success. That's product development in 2025.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jeremy Flynn]

It's like, how do you actually know what's going to drive like long term enterprise value but short term, like immediate revenue returns? Right. And so like, I don't know, to answer your question, like, I would say reading and then applying what you're reading to like the context year to day to day is like, is the top thing I'd say.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah, I love that. I mean. Yeah. Personally, I'm always amazed at how I do similar things. Like I, I will intentionally read seemingly random things, but they never end up being random.

[Jeremy Flynn]

They always end up.

[Host]

There's, there's some nugget in there that's like, oh, wow, why didn't I know this first? Or before or whatever. So yeah, no, I love that.

[Jeremy Flynn]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host]

Well, again, I'd like to thank Jeremy Flynn, Senior Vice President of Data Products and Strategy at Clear Channel Outdoor. You can learn more about Jeremy and Clear Channel Outdoor by following the links in the show notes.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Thanks again for listening to the Agile Brand brought to you by Tech Systems. If you enjoyed the show, please take a minute to subscribe and leave us a rating so that others can find the show as well. You can access more episodes of the show@theagile brand.com that's theagile brand.com and contact me if you're interested in consulting or advisory services or are looking for a speaker for your next event. Go to www.gregkillstrom.com that's G R E G K-I H L S T R O M.com the Agile brand is produced by Missing Link, a Latina owned, strategy driven, creatively fueled production co. Op. From ideation to creation, they craft human connections through intelligent, engaging and informative content. Until next time, stay curious and stay agile.

[Jeremy Flynn]

The Agile Brand.