#656: Integrating CX and EX to create better customer outcomes with Sasha Fard, Capital One

Summary

Podcast Summary: Episode #656 - Integrating CX and EX to Create Better Customer Outcomes with Sasha Fard, Capital One

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Agile Brand with Greg Kihlström®
• Host: Greg Kihlström
• Episode: #656
• Title: Integrating CX and EX to Create Better Customer Outcomes
• Guest: Sasha Fard, Country Lead for Customer Experience Management at Capital One
• Release Date: March 28, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode #656 of The Agile Brand with Greg Kihlström®, host Greg Kihlström engages in a profound conversation with Sasha Fard, the Country Lead for Customer Experience Management at Capital One. The discussion revolves around the integration of Customer Experience (CX) and Employee Experience (EX) to foster better customer outcomes, enhance employee engagement, and drive sustainable business growth.

Guest Background

Sasha Fard's Journey in CX and EX

• Timestamp [02:47]: Sasha introduces herself as a certified Customer Experience Professional (CCXP) with over a decade of experience in both CX and EX fields.
• Career Path: Started in market research at a boutique consulting firm, progressed to managing Voice of the Customer (VOC) programs at a top North American bank, and ultimately joined Capital One to focus on brand development.
• Achievements: Leads a cross-functional team at Capital One, overseeing customer experience across key touchpoints and journeys. Notably, her team won the Global CXPA Impact Award for initiatives that enhanced both customer and employee experiences in global call centers.

The Interconnection of CX and EX

Why Fuse Customer and Employee Experiences?

• Timestamp [04:41]: Sasha emphasizes the intrinsic link between CX and EX. Engaged employees are pivotal in delivering exceptional customer experiences, which in turn drive better business outcomes.
• Case Study: References Ritz Carlton's approach, where employees are empowered with a $2,000 budget to resolve guest issues autonomously, fostering a proactive and motivated workforce.
• Key Insight: Simple actions like actively listening to employees and acting on their feedback can significantly enhance both EX and CX without substantial costs.

The Role of Brand Alignment

Aligning External and Internal Brand to Gain Competitive Advantage

• Timestamp [06:43]: Sasha discusses the importance of brand authenticity and consistency. She uses Costco as an example, highlighting how staying true to their promise of high-quality products at low prices reinforces both customer and employee trust.
• Authenticity Matters: Points out that brands like Tesla thrive because their internal culture and external promises are aligned. Any inconsistency can lead to employee disengagement and customer distrust.
• Conclusion: Ensuring that brand and culture align consistently is crucial for maintaining competitive advantage and fostering loyalty among both customers and employees.

Best Practices for Integrating CX and EX

Avoiding Common Pitfalls

• Timestamp [09:42]: Sasha identifies two primary mistakes companies make:
  1. Overemphasis on Metrics: Focusing solely on metrics like Customer Satisfaction (CSAT) can lead to gaming the system rather than fostering genuine improvements. Instead, organizations should concentrate on behaviors that drive these metrics.
     • Quote: “We actually didn't even have CSAT in our agent scorecard because we didn't want them to think about CSAT and just trying to focus on this one score.” – [09:42]
  2. Failing to Act on Feedback: Collecting feedback without taking actionable steps can erode trust and reduce future participation. It's better to refrain from asking for feedback than to ignore it consistently.
• Engagement and Ownership: Involving employees in the solution-making process enhances their sense of ownership and motivation. Continuous feedback loops after pilot initiatives reinforce the value of their input.

The Role of Technology and Platforms

Leveraging Medallia for Success

• Timestamp [17:16]: Sasha highlights the critical role of technology platforms like Medallia in collecting and reporting feedback across organizations.
• Data Collection: Utilizes multiple channels (email surveys, SMS, digital intercepts) to gather comprehensive feedback from both customers and employees.
• Reporting: Tailors dashboards to different user roles, ensuring that relevant metrics are accessible to respective leaders (e.g., contact center leaders have dashboards specific to their teams).
• Quote: “Technology plays a critical role... it's really about people and driving change.” – [17:16]
• Key Point: While technology is essential for data collection and dissemination, the focus should remain on using these tools to drive meaningful actions and improvements.

Ensuring Continuous Improvement

Embedding CX and EX into Organizational Culture

• Timestamp [19:38]: Sasha underscores that CX and EX are systems, not one-off initiatives, requiring sustained commitment.
• Strategies for Sustainability:
  • Relationship Building: Engage with stakeholders to reinforce the value and benefits of CX and EX initiatives.
  • Celebrating Wins: Share successes broadly within the organization to maintain momentum and showcase the impact of efforts.
    • Example: Capital One celebrated their CXPA award through monitors, cakes, and town hall sessions.
  • Setting Targets: Establishing ongoing targets for both EX and CX ensures continued focus and accountability without being punitive.
• Quote: “Sharing wins, sharing results, reinforcing the benefits is key...” – [19:38]
• Conclusion: Maintaining continuous improvement requires relationship management, recognition of achievements, and persistent goal-setting.

Highlights and Future Outlook

Medallia Experience Event Insights

• Timestamp [22:01]: Sasha expresses excitement about the Medallia Experience event, eager to learn from other leaders and share her insights on fostering connections between EX and CX.
• Key Takeaway: The event provides a platform to explore best practices and leverage tools and technologies that enhance both employee and customer experiences.

Staying Agile

Continuous Learning as a Path to Agility

• Timestamp [23:17]: Sasha shares her personal approach to staying agile in her role:
  • Continuous Learning: Constantly acquiring new skills and knowledge to adapt to evolving challenges.
  • Embracing New Roles: Transitioned from focusing solely on VOC insights to becoming a proficient change manager and problem solver.
  • Certifications: Obtained Lean Management certification to enhance problem-solving capabilities.
• Quote: “I'm always looking to learn new skills and learn new ways of doing things.” – [23:17]
• Conclusion: Agility is maintained through perpetual learning, adaptability, and expanding one's skill set to meet emerging demands.

Conclusion

In this insightful episode, Sasha Fard articulates the profound synergy between Customer Experience and Employee Experience. By integrating these domains, organizations like Capital One not only enhance customer satisfaction but also foster a motivated and engaged workforce. The discussion highlights best practices, the pivotal role of technology, and strategies for sustaining continuous improvement, offering valuable lessons for marketing leaders aiming to build agile, customer-centric brands.

Notable Quotes:

• “We actually didn't even have CSAT in our agent scorecard because we didn't want them to think about CSAT and just trying to focus on this one score.” – Sasha Fard [09:42]
• “Technology plays a critical role... it's really about people and driving change.” – Sasha Fard [17:16]
• “Sharing wins, sharing results, reinforcing the benefits is key...” – Sasha Fard [19:38]
• “I'm always looking to learn new skills and learn new ways of doing things.” – Sasha Fard [23:17]

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Additional Resources:

• Learn More About Sasha Fard: Follow the links in the show notes to connect with Sasha and explore more about Capital One's initiatives.
• Medallia Experience: Stay updated with insights and best practices by attending the Medallia Experience conference.
• Subscribe to The Agile Brand: Access more episodes and stay informed on the latest trends in marketing technology, AI, and customer experience by subscribing to theagilebrand.com.

Transcript

[Domo Representative]

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[Greg Kilstrom]

Brand.

Welcome to season seven of the Agile Brand where we discuss the trends and topics marketing leaders need to know. Stay curious, stay agile and join the top enterprise brands and Martech platforms as we explore marketing technology, AI, E commerce and whatever's next for the Omnichannel customer experience. Together we'll discover what it takes to create an agile brand built for today and tomorrow and built for customers, employees and continued business growth. I'm your host Greg Kilstrom, advising Fortune 1000 brands on martech, AI and marketing operations. The Agile Brand podcast is brought to you by Tech Systems, an industry leader in full stack technology services, talent services and real world application. For more information go to teksystems.com to.

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We are here at Medallia Experience at the Wynn in Las Vegas and seeing some examples of amazing customer experience and employee experience and the latest updates from Medallia. Companies often separate customer experience and employee experience into different silos. But what if the real key to competitiveness and long term success is infusing the two together? How can organizations integrate CX and EX to create better customer interactions, drive employee engagement and unlock real business value? Joining me today is Sasha Fard, Country Lead for Customer Experience Management at Capital One. Sasha, welcome to the show.

[Sasha Fard]

Thank you for having me Greg. Great to be here.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Yeah, looking forward to this and yeah, always love to be able to connect in person at these events. So looking forward to talking here. Why don't we before we jump in, why don't we start with you telling us a little bit about your background and your role at Capital One.

[Sasha Fard]

Sure, sounds good. I'm a certified Customer Experience Professional or CC xp. I've been in the CX and X space for more than 10 years now. I actually started in market research working at a boutique consulting company where I managed end to end research products, syndicated studies. Then I moved over to CX Consulting where I manage VOC programs for a top 10 North American bank. And then I said, you know, I really want to get involved with the, with the brand side and really build the brand myself. So I moved over to Capital One a few years ago. In my current role, I lead a cross functional team to measure and improve customer experience, you know, both overall and across all key touch points and journeys. So I worked work with digital channels, teams, contact centers, product strategy, marketing, really across the board, across Canada had a lot of success so far. So a few months ago we actually won the global CXPA Impact award for. Thank you very much. Yeah, this was for initiative that improved customer experience and employee experience across our global call centers. So really looking forward to sharing some of the insights this week with folks and also learning from other leaders as well.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Nice. Nice. Well yeah, you are definitely the person to talk about this topic then. So let's dive in here and talk about why customer experience and employee experience should be fused, not separated. So many businesses, as I mentioned at the top of the show, they tend to focus on customer experience or ex kind of in isolation. And why do you think it's critical to fuse these?

[Sasha Fard]

I think that both of them, they're very interconnected. Right. So engaged employees create better customer experience that lead to better business outcomes. If employees feel that they're feeling supported and heard, they're just more likely to be motivated and take ownership over their work. So being in CX or an ex, a case study that we always hear about is Ritz Carlton where they really empower their employees. They give them $2,000 budget and to rescue a guest experience. And so when a customer has an issue, the employee doesn't have to go to their manager and get preapproval. They can just solve this problem on the spot and they're empowered to do so. So that's like a case study that we always hear. But it doesn't even have to be as grand as that on such a big scale. It could be as simple as just listening to employees and just taking action on their feedback. So whether that's helping the employee to improve and optimize a CX process that they own and manage, whether it's giving them the right tools, whether giving them the right training, just really listening to them and taking action on their feedback. And this isn't such grand scale or so expensive. The incremental cost is not that great where the investment really pays dividends in terms of employee retention as well as customer loyalty. So they're very connected together.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Yeah. I think it's that agency that when employees are given that it can be motivating. And then to your point, it sounds really straightforward and I'm sure anyone listening, it makes sense to them. And yet it's still kind of, it's often siloed still in organizations. But in addition to all the things that you mentioned, how do you look at this integration of the brand, whether it's external brand or internal brand and culture as a competitive advantage?

[Sasha Fard]

Sure. So brand is essentially like what the customer, what the company promises to the customer. It's really intentional, really well thought out and it's intended to really say, hey, this is how we're different from our competitors. So one example that I like to think about is Costco. Right. Everyone loves Costco because they're like, hey, I get access to all these high quality products at really low prices. Right. And that works for a lot of people. And then other people say, well, I don't really like the warehouse style shopping experience. I want some frills kind of talking about myself. Yeah, I want some frills in the shopping experience. And so if, and which is fine, but that's not what Costco promises to its customers. Right. So if they make changes to try to appeal to folks like me, then it just wouldn't feel really authentic to the, to the customer as well. And I think authenticity is key, especially right now. I think it's becoming more and more important to be authentic, especially with the Gen Z generation. Authenticity is very important for them. So employees really want to work for a company where they really, you know, they believe in the brand, they trust the brand and they also, they want to be proud of the brand that they, that they're working for. So, you know, like Tesla has been in the news a lot recently and I was thinking about them and their whole thing is about accelerating, you know, the transition to sustainable energy. If they were to like make a switch and say, now we're gonna go into the oil business and build all these gas guzzling cars, then employees are gonna be a little confused. They won't feel as connected to the company and they might leave. So yeah, I think it's really important to make sure that the brand and culture are aligned and doing so on a consistent basis to create that advantage.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Yeah, and I mean, another thing you're touching on is the brand. Certainly as consumers, we experience brands all the time in advertising and everything, but it kind of starts within. Right. It's you create the brand, the employees ideally align with it because it aligns with their values and it's consistent and all those things. And then that kind of propagates out into the world as something that is either consistent or not. To your other point of if it's not consistent, not only the employees don't know what to say to the customers, but customers don't know what they're buying.

[Sasha Fard]

Right, Exactly.

[Greg Kilstrom]

So let's talk a little bit about some best practices then. So again, I think the concept of tying CX EX together probably makes a lot of sense, but in practice, any large organization especially, there's lots of existing silos and hierarchical structures or whatever. So let's talk a little bit about what works and maybe what doesn't work. What are some of the biggest mistakes that companies make when they're trying to integrate CX and ex?

[Sasha Fard]

Sure. I think just based on my experience, one of the biggest mistakes is focusing too much on metrics. I think metrics are important, but really the focus should be on the behaviors. So let's say that the company is looking to increase customer satisfaction and then they sometimes they focus too much on that metric, the customer satisfaction score. But it really should be about, hey, what are those behaviors that drive the customer satisfaction? So when we're looking to, you know, we're focusing on improving customer satisfaction. Our contact center, we actually didn't even have CSAT in our agent scorecard because we didn't want them to think about, you know, CSAT and just trying to, like, focus on this one score. Then there's, you know, opportunity for them to say, well, this is so important. I might try to like, game it or manipulate it, that which does happen. And just really didn't want to focus on that. You know, you see this with car dealerships a lot as well. They're just focused so much on the score. So I think best practice is really to focus on the behavior, see what impacts customer satisfaction, whether it's being knowledgeable as a frontline agent, whether it's having good active listening skills, and then just really just focusing on those behaviors. I think another mistake is obviously not acting on the insights. So very similar to cx. If you don't respond to feedback, then employees are going to not feel engaged, they might push back a little bit and then they might not participate in future waves as well. So I think it's better to not even ask for feedback than ask for feedback and not do anything with it. Because then employees will say, well, this is, it would just impact their trust. They might not feel like the ask is being authentic and then they would also think that, you know, hey, if they're not listening to me and taking action on my feedback, then they're probably doing the same with customers. So you know, this, this company might not be that interested in EX or cx. So not acting on the feedback is another one. And I also like to really make sure that employees and associates are involved in the solutioning as well and really making sure that they're involved in what we're going to do and how we're going to do it so that it works for them. So by having them engaged in the solutioning, they feel a sense of ownership, they're more motivated to take action on it. So I really like to make sure that all the frontline folks, all the associates are engaged. And then once we, you know, we launch a new initiative, just constantly get their feedback as well. Like after, let's say we pilot something, hey, how did it go? What could we do to make it better? And that really shows the employees that hey, we're here to listen and then we're here to really help them be engaged and empowered to deliver a great customer experience.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Yeah, yeah, I love that. And so, you know, just a lot of great insights there. And some of it speaks to just the value of giving the employees agency to talk about giving them involvement in the solutions. In other words, it's important to ask for feedback. It's definitely important to listen as you said as well, but also to actually involve them as co creators and making this better.

[Domo Representative]

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[Greg Kilstrom]

The other thing I want to briefly touch back on, you know, the using that single like measurement score. I totally agree with your thoughts there on I think it can be. It can. At best case, I think it can help. It can prevent people from looking holistically about all of the things that go into making great experience. Do you think that's especially important when you're kind of starting out on that journey too? Of like focusing on a single score? Kind of. It doesn't let you look at all of the potential aspects. Or is that something that just it's kind of prevalent throughout?

[Sasha Fard]

I think it's best not to focus on any single thing like a single score or a single source. So when we look at customer experience for, let's say a particular touch point, we look at everyone should have some sense of ownership for a particular metric or a score. So someone is responsible for the overall experience, right? So they will be looking and monitoring that particular metric. Someone else is focused on an aspect of that customer experience. So we're not going to ask them to hey, focus on this score or monitor the score, see what folks are saying. But really focus on those areas where you can directly control and influence. I think part of the best way to get folks more engaged with CX and EX is how can I actually influence the feedback and the scores that we're looking at just so I feel like I can actually have ownership over it as well. So I think it's ideal to look at multiple scores and metrics and then also from different sources. So for example, we look at perception from surveys, but then we also do call listening. We look at that and see what the sentiment is on those calls. We look at Social media, there's just so many different ways to listen. Especially with the explosion of technology in the last 10 years or just.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Well, that's a great segue to the next thing. So we're here at Medallia Experience. Capital One's a Medallia customer. What's the role of platform and software? Obviously there's a huge people component, but maybe let's talk a little bit about what's the role of software and platforms in enabling success.

[Sasha Fard]

Sure. I think technology platforms has an important role to collect feedback and then also report feedback across the organization. So there's, you know, we use the platforms to just collect data from wide variety of sources. So we do like email surveys, but you could also do SMS text. There's your digital intercepts. There's just so many different ways to collect data and it really depends on what works for your customers and employees to meet them where they are. Right. So if you just focus on one channel that might not be getting the wide coverage of feedback that you want. So using multiple channels is usually the recommended option. And then in terms of reporting, so you can report the data across the organization with user based dashboards, I think that's really the best way to share feedback is having user based roles. So let's say a contact center leader has their own dashboard dashboard, the digital channel leaders has their own dashboard that really shows their relevant metrics and so on. So I think technology plays a critical role. And like I mentioned, technology has exploded in the last 10 years. I think 15 years ago the best way that we collected data was through telephone data collection, which was very expensive. And now it's just so easily accessible. So many different ways to collect and then also report and democratize access to data. But I think the key point is, as you mentioned early on, is that technology is just a component to the overall strategy and it's really just about people and driving change and making sure the organization is taking action. I think it's best not to get too hung up on the technology and making sure, hey, I got the pretty dashboard and everything looks so nice and everyone's going to look at it and say I love the colors on the dashboard. So I think it's important to use it the way it's intended but then also focus on the bigger picture which is driving change and improving CX and.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Exactly, yeah, yeah, well, and then along those lines, continuous improvement. Certainly, you know, it's one thing to get it, you know, kind of get it set up and then feel like things are going well, but like how do you, how do you ensure that continuous improvement is in place rather than treating this as a like one time initiative or something?

[Sasha Fard]

Right. I think that is such a key question because CX and EX is not an ad hoc initiative, it's essentially a system and it's a system that needs to be embedded, you know, across the organization, organization. So it is a big commitment from companies to, you know, to agree to accept that. And I think the best way to make sure it's sustainable is to, you know, be like a relationship builder and manager and just really engage with folks and make sure that you're reinforcing the value, reinforcing the benefits, sharing wins, celebrating results. You know, I mentioned before we won the CXPA award, so we really made it a point to share that broadly across the organ organization. We had it like in our monitors, we had like a cake, we had parties, it was like in our, you know, town hall sessions and so on. And the idea was to really reinforce the benefits of the work that we're doing because CXEX is not, it's relatively new discipline, right. It hasn't been around for a hundred years like finance or accounting. So people are still kind of getting used to it, still trying to understand the benefits. So, you know, sharing wins, sharing results, reinforcing the benefits is key, especially since, you know, turnover does happen. So those champions that you had, that, you know, you got it kicked, kicked off the ground, they might leave or they might switch and go to another role. So you always need to continuously sell, you know, the new person coming in and so on. So I think there's kind of a selling component to it as well. And then another key best practice is to make sure folks have certain targets as well so that they're keeping focused in the long term. So having targets for both EX and CX and not really essentially to be like punitive targets where you must meet this goal, but really just to make sure someone is keeping an eye on this for sustaining. So for example, our agents, our frontline agents, one of the key drivers of CX is to make sure that they're knowledgeable, right? So the knowledge management team who's putting together all those knowledge articles and making sure that they're knowledgeable, we want them to monitor the feedback, make sure that it's still useful for them on an ongoing basis, make tweaks or not. So I think having targets in place really helps keep the focus and continue sustainability as one of the strategies.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Yeah, yeah, love it. Well, as we wrap up here, two last questions for you here. I know we're just kind of starting the event here at Medallia Experience, but either what's a highlight so far or what's something you're looking forward to most here.

[Sasha Fard]

So what I'm looking forward to most is, you know, since this is kind of like day one is two, it.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Is like hour two of the event.

[Domo Representative]

So maybe not a highlight. Yeah, right.

[Sasha Fard]

But I'm just really excited to be here. I'm looking at the lineup for today and tomorrow. I'm just really excited to, you know, learn from the leaders, learn from as well as the, the Medallia folks and try to see, you know, what are some of the best practices and leveraging some of the tools and technology. Yeah, I'm just really excited to just learn from leaders and then also share some of my insights. And I love the kind of the theme I would say or I've seen a lot of sessions about the connection between EX and CX and making sure the frontline folks are engaged. So I think it's a great opportunity just to learn from other folks and see what other folks are doing and try to use it in my practice as well.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Love it. Love it. Well, one last question for you. I'd like to ask to everybody, what do you do to stay agile in your role and how do you find a way to do it consistently?

[Sasha Fard]

Staying agile is just really critical and for me it's about continuous learning. You know, I never, you know, call myself an expert because I feel like if I did then I would just relax and I would just, you know, sit on the couch and say, hey, I'm an expert. I don't need to learn anything new. So I'm always looking to learn new skills and learn new ways of doing things. And so one of the things that I learned a few years ago was, you know, being in this role, I really thought, hey, to be successful we need to be really great at VOC and voe insights and generating actionable insights and being that thought leader, that's what's going to help you be successful. And then what I realized, especially coming into the brand side from consulting, I realized that's more table stakes really. That's not what's going to really get you to where you need to be. Really need to be a good change manager, change agent and get, you know, focus on getting buy in from folks, focus on collaboration with other people and just like having everyone move into the same direction, which is not easy, especially if you work at a large organization and there's so many different players involved. You know that that's a challenge there. So you need to have like good skills to do that. So I, you know, I decided to learn more about change management a few years ago. Another key learning was problem solving. You know, like we are problem solvers essentially and so you need to have like a really good tool in order to solve problems and I felt I needed to add to my toolkit for that. When we have an insight how to attack that problem, how to understand the problem, I think a lot of people don't even understand what the problem is before they start solving the problem. So I felt like I needed a strong tool to do that. So I got my Lean Management certificate. So there's just a couple examples of always keep learning, keep staying on top of things and just be better.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Wonderful. Well, again, I'd like to thank Sacha Fard, Country Lead for Customer Experience Management at Capital One, for joining the show. You can learn more about Sasha, Capital One and Medallia by following the links in the show Notes thanks again for.

Listening to the Agile Brand brought to you by Tech Systems. If you enjoyed the show, please take a minute to subscribe and leave us a rating so that others can find the show as well. You can access more episodes of the [e-mail] that's theagile brand.com and contact me. If you're interested in consulting or advisory services or are looking for a speaker for your next event, go to www.gregkilstrom.com that's G R E G K-I H L S T R O M.com the Agile brand is produced by Missing Link, a Latina owned, strategy driven, creatively fueled production co op. From ideation to creation, they craft human connections through intelligent, engaging and informative content. Until next time, stay curious and stay agile.

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[Greg Kilstrom]

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