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The Agile Brand with Greg Kihlström®: Expert Mode Marketing Technology, AI, & CX
#659: The current state of the job market with Sue Keith, Landrum Talent Solutions
00:26:45
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- [00:00]
Domo Representative
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- [01:03]
Sue Keith
Brand.
- [01:11]
Greg Kilstrom
Welcome to season seven of the Agile Brand where we discuss the trends and topics marketing leaders need to know. Stay curious, stay agile and join the top enterprise brands and Martech platforms as we explore marketing technology, AI, E commerce, and whatever's next for the Omnichannel customer experience. Together we'll discover what it takes to create an agile brand built for today and tomorrow and built for customers, employees and continued business growth. I'm your host Greg Kilstrom, advising Fortune 1000 brands on martech, AI and marketing operations. The Agile Brand podcast is brought to you by Tech Systems, an industry leader in full stack technology services, talent services and real world application. For more information, go to teksystems.com to make sure you always get the latest episodes, please hit subscribe on the app you listen to podcasts on and leave us a rating so others can find us as well. And now onto the show. This episode is brought to you by Landrum Talent Solutions, a national recruiting firm specializing in marketing and HR positions. We've talked about volatile job markets before on this show, but has it been anything like what is currently going on? What should marketers looking for employment be expecting and what should employers looking to hire be looking out for in the months ahead? Today we're going to talk about the current state of hiring for marketers and how communication execs are responding to the latest developments in the world while still needing to get their work done. To help me discuss this topic, I'd like to welcome back to the show Sue Keith, Corporate Vice President at Landrum Talent Solutions. Sue, welcome back to the show.
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Sue Keith
Thanks Greg. It's always fun to chat with you.
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Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, yeah, Definitely looking forward to talking with you again. For those that missed one of our previous conversations, why don't you start with giving a little background on yourself and what you're currently doing.
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Sue Keith
Sure. Land of Talent is a national recruiting firm that specializes in two functional areas, HR and marketing, which is the practice I lead. As our listeners know, marketing is a pretty big category, so we see it as four categories, Marketing, communications, product and creative. And we place full time, contract and fractional positions within those buckets. Our whole team is all former marketers, myself included. So we like to say we speak the language and I think our clients would agree that we're pretty good matchmakers.
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Greg Kilstrom
Great. Great. So, yeah, let's, let's dive in here. And you know, as I mentioned at the top of the show, I want to talk about the state of hiring. So what is the state of hiring for marketers in today's volatile environment? Let's use that term.
- [03:47]
Sue Keith
Right. Well, it's definitely an interesting time to be talking about hiring, especially as you and I both sit here in D.C. as I've mentioned several times on the show, the job market for marketers for the last few years has been pretty tough as companies pull back on marketing investments and marketing people. For smaller companies, this pullback was mostly in response to their investors demanding their portfolio companies show a path to profitability versus that. Previously it was like grow at all costs, no matter what it costs. Then for larger companies, I think it was more in anticipation of a recession that the pundits were all predicting but didn't actually materialize. Now I should note that I'm talking about the last few years and not the current state with all the new warnings about a pending recession. I think a combination of ironically and somewhat sadly, our team was cautiously optimistic about the hiring market as we headed into 2025 because, you know, no matter how you feel about the election results, a Republican win is typically considered positive by the business community. So we're expecting a resurrection of investment in strategic initiatives, in technology and in hiring. We'd also seen a renewed interest in several roles. So specifically partner marketing, which is I think is a reflection of companies deciding not to rely solely on their direct sales team or perhaps maybe put all their eggs into their channel. Channel partners. We saw event marketing roles coming back as events become, you know, five years post Covid where they're back and then also content strategy. But you know, the current climate, shall we say, has, and as you just said, has created a lot of uncertainty. And this uncertainty is keeping companies on the sidelines. So, you know, Doge's cuts are certainly having a measurable impact on the D.C. market, but it's also having far reaching reverberations in many states across the country.
- [05:31]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, yeah. Well, and, and yeah, I mean it's, you know, I, I don't like getting too political on the show, but it's, it's hard to avoid, you know, some of this talk and what we're talking about. You know, there's in addition to what you mentioned, as far as kind of some uncertainty around recession or not, there's also, you know, there's been various executive orders that relate to some of them maybe not as close relations to, to the job market, particularly the marketing job market, but others do have an impact. How, how are you seeing communication execs responding to those, you know, to the various executive orders that have been coming out?
- [06:12]
Sue Keith
Well, we've been hosting virtual roundtables with CMO since COVID And as I mentioned, that was we just passed the five year anniversary of when the who declared Covid. Covid a pandemic. So it's kind of crazy. It feels like it was both yesterday and 20 years ago.
- [06:25]
Greg Kilstrom
Right, right.
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Sue Keith
So after we've been talking to CMOs for all these years, every month late last year, we decided to add communications execs to the mix for. And little do we know at that time we'd have so much to talk about. We've hosted two roundtables so far this year with comms leaders and they really cover a diverse range of industries. So on the commercial side, B2B and B2C to B2G government contractors who are quite in the crosshairs right now to nonprofits and associations. And we cover a lot of ground during these conversations. But I'll give you the kind of the hottest topics, if you will. The first is what I'll call, I call fluidity. So as one of the participants said, I love this quote, the ability to have agility is especially critical right now as the new administration induces new mandates, reverses mandates, new new policies that are, that are impacting companies. Internal communications was another topic. So everyone at these meetings is responsible also for employee communications as well as external messaging. And interesting enough, back to Covid. Several of participants said it feels like it's Covid all over again where you need to compute, communicate with your employee base. But things are changing at such a rapid pace, it's difficult to know when what to say and when to say it. But I thought this was an interesting point. Several of them mentioned said, you know, as an anchor in all this volatility, they're focusing on their company's cor, you know, their company's values to continue to inform their strategic decisions. That kind of leads into the next one, which is DEI messaging. So not surprisingly, one of the hottest topics was how companies are reevaluating their DEI initiatives and adjusting their external messaging. And you know, some of these folks have replaced the term diversity with language that's just broad and inclusive. Others have removed DEI language entirely from their websites. So you'll, you see companies responding in different ways. And you know, one of the leaders on these calls said something, I thought it was an insight that was spot on. She said, right now it's not a question of right or wrong, it's a question of the leadership team's risk tolerance. So that's how each company is approaching this. And also this varies depending on the industry. As I mentioned, government contractors are in the crosshairs right now. So they're going to have, they're going to have to really consider their risk tolerance more so than some other industries or other companies. Another interesting topic, and for me was pretty unexpected, was influencers. So I feel like influencer marketing is like the Phoenix. Every year, the marketing pundits predict its demise and it always rises back from the ashes. But if you think about it, it really makes sense as more and more your buyers get their, and your stakeholders get their news and information and misinformation from social channels. That means they're putting their trust in the people they follow. So communicating your messages through those follow followers has become a critical component of an external messaging strategy. And, you know, and this applies to all sectors, you know, influencer marketing is no longer just a strategy for big, big consumer brands.
- [09:19]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, to the, to the point of agility and the need to be able to be nimble in these times. I mean, one of the characteristics, let's just say right now, is just kind of the rapidity of how things are maybe changing and then sometimes changing back and then sometimes changing yet back again, or just how rapid things are being rolled out. Maybe there's a few different mindsets here. There could be the, okay, let's wait and see and just kind of see how things shake out. Or there could be the more reactive, like, okay, this happened today, we gotta, we gotta jump on this and, and have an answer within hours. Are there any common themes? There are threads like, are people, are leaders being more reactive? Are there, are they being a little more cautious and just kind of letting things shake out. Or maybe all of the above.
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Sue Keith
I'd say all the above. D what we're seeing is both. So there are companies who sell to government agencies who have just done preemptive layoffs, Right? I have a good friend who just got caught up and just basically, I think she said that any position that that company was filling on behalf of whatever agency it was, if it had the term consultant in it, I think it was, they just got axed. And so the companies that are looking at these executive orders, which have direct impact on the agencies they support, the government agencies they support, and are really doing some preemptive, perhaps reactive things, I'd say if you're not in the business of selling to the government, I don't think we've seen a much different reaction. It's just more a continuation of what we've been seeing over the past few years. Like I mentioned, companies, they continue to be reluctant to invest in new people while the political and the economic environment is so unstable.
- [11:19]
Domo Representative
Know data is valuable. We use it to tell a story, to make informed decisions for our businesses. But turning data into actionable insights can be a challenge. It's time to unlock the true potential of your business data with Domo's AI and Data Products Platform. Domo lets you channel AI and data into innovative uses that deliver a measurable impact. Ask your data Anything at any time. Anyone on your team can use Domo to easily prepare, analyze, visualize, automate and distribute data, all amplified by AI. Domo goes beyond productivity. It's designed to transform your processes, helping you make smarter and faster decisions and drive real growth. All powered by Domo's trust, flexibility and years of expertise in data and AI innovation. Data is hard. Domo is easy. Make smarter decisions and propel your business forward with Domo. Learn more today@AI that's AI.domo.com want to learn more and join the discussion About Marketing and AI? Attend the premier conference dedicated to marketing and AI that's Meacon, the Marketing Artificial Intelligence Conference from October 14 through 16 in Cleveland, Ohio. Meikon brings together the brightest minds and leading voices in AI. Don't miss this opportunity to connect with a dynamic community of experts, visionaries and enthusiasts. The Agile brand is proud to be the lead media sponsor of this important event. Register today@MarketingAI Institute.com that's MarketingAI Institute.com and use the code AGILE150 for $150 off your registration fee. I can't wait to see you there.
- [13:13]
Greg Kilstrom
So yeah, I think this is a recurring theme whenever you and I, I chat. But all of this aside, and you know, there's, there's, no matter what's going on, there's always going to be something happening that is a reason to pull back or push or whatever. But what does all this mean for those marketing and comms leaders that you know, they still need to get worked on, there's still widgets to be sold or you know, what, whatever the case may be, you know, what does this mean for those leaders that you know, they still have to get stuff done but maybe their staff is more limited or, you know, what, what, what do you recommend there?
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Sue Keith
So, you know, as I mentioned, we support contract, fractional and full time roles so we cover all types of hiring needs. And I'm going to take this back to Covid again, just like during COVID especially in the early year of OR two of COVID we saw, we've seen an uptick in our clients requesting interim support for the last couple of years and we're seeing it even more so now. And that's because, you know, when everything's uncertain and headcount is really impossible to get, but as you said, the work still needs to get done. So a contractor, an interim contractor is a really good solution there. So you know, while sometimes this the need is temporary, say it's maternity leave coverage or you've just got to get some people to help with a product launch that's got some finite time periods to it. You know, oftentimes what we're seeing is the hiring manager really wants to hire a full time person but couldn't get the headcount approved. So what they're doing is they use their own budget to bring on a contractor, which avoids any tricky negotiations with hr, which means they're dipping into their own program dollars and then they're striking a balance between investing in those programs and investing in people to help execute those campaigns. The other interesting we're seeing is what I'm calling a proof of concept. So in this case, again, the hiring manager doesn't have headcount, but they really need to get work to get done. So what they're doing is they're bringing a contractor one, to get the work done, but two, to demonstrate the leadership, the value of having someone in that position and they use that evidence, if you will, to eventually secure headcount. We've actually seen the strategy be effective numerous times with our clients.
- [15:16]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, yeah. What about, I know we've talked a bit about fractional roles in the past. Is there, I mean it sounds like there's interest in contractor roles for the reasons you just mentioned. Are you seeing interest in fractional roles in general versus times in the past?
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Sue Keith
Yes, and I think it's a combination of two things. One, the definition of fractional has been broadened to basically replace the word contractor unless you truly are a fractional CMO or CXO insert X. And there are so and so there's that, there's two is, you know, like I just said, a lot of companies, a lot of CMOS or CCOS can't get headcount approved, but they can use their own budgets. Typically the budget for contractor comes out of your bucket, not the HR headcount bucket. And then three, there are so many people on the market that they've all hung their fractional shingles. So it's definitely very, it's a hot, hot market at the moment.
- [16:16]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, we've been talking from the employer perspective on a switch gears here and let's talk about this from the job seeker market. Certainly, you know, again with, with a lot of, a lot of the layoffs. But you know, particularly, you know, as you mentioned, both of us sitting here in dc, there's very particular kind of bent to that conversation. But what can job seekers do in, you know, what seems to be, I know it feels like we always say this, but like an increasingly challenging market. You know, what should job seekers be doing now?
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Sue Keith
Sure. Well, the first thing I tell everyone we talk to, because we talk to so many really talented marketers who just cannot find a job, they get some interest, they might be a finalist and then something goes bump in the night. The first thing I say is it's not you, it's truly them. It is really a tough, I'd say unforgiving market. The next thing our team recommends is you be disciplined. Your job is to find a job. So you want to set aside specific time blocks, time periods with very clear actions and hold yourself accountable. But also give yourself some breaks. Like just don't sit going at it for eight hours a day. You really like do it for X number of hours and then take a break and do something that's distracting, which ultimately I think you'll just feel better in general, which means your job search might go better and eventually you'll interview better. We just talked about this. If you can be open to contract roles, as we talked about, way more prevalent than full time positions right now. It also gives you something to put in your resume, expose you to a whole new, potentially a Whole new network of people and could possibly convert to a full time position. Back to my proof of concept talk. You're not be surprised when I say network, network and network some more. And then there's a lot of twist to this. Ask for help. I've noticed an interesting paradox. People don't like to ask others for help, but most people like to help others. So you know, ask a former colleague, even if you haven't talked to that person in five years to connect you with someone at the company you're interested in. Ask someone you trust, introduce you to groups or part of, et cetera. You just ask for a connection, some sort of support. And most people want to help. I mean the worst thing that'll happen is you get ignored. That's really the worst thing.
- [18:35]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, I love that, I love that. But just to cut in first, like just, I love that advice. And you know, a good friend of mine gave me similar advice years and years ago. She moved from Alaska to the big city, you know, D.C. or whatever and characterizes it as this. Like she didn't know that you couldn't reach out to the CEO of a company and just ask for help for something. And amazingly got a lot of. Not everybody responded of course, but like got so many responses of people just being willing to help. So like I always keep that in mind of there are a lot of like, I know, you know, I do my best to do the same in my own way, you know, to respond to questions and stuff. But you know, I've been helped by so many people that really I, I doubted they would even like respond to my LinkedIn message or email or whatever. So I definitely just want to, want to pile onto that one.
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Sue Keith
Yeah, just ask. Ask. What's that? What's that line we use? If you don't ask, you don't get.
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Greg Kilstrom
Right, right.
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Sue Keith
The other, another idea is create your own networking group of job seekers. So it's another way to expand your network or as we say in marketing, reach, you know, and this is especially if you're uncomfortable networking with strangers. I mean there are a lot of people, this is really uncomfortable. So pull in people, you know, and then those people can bring in their, their contacts to expand the group. So that's another way. And again I've watched people do this. It also is just, it's a nice way. And we do this once a month with job seekers is virtually as we bring together directors above who are job seeking and it is the feedback we've gotten. I mean we can only help so Many people get a job, but we've gotten some really nice feedback from folks that just thank you for giving me a place of other people in the same boat as me. I call it networking advice and commiseration. So create your own little networking group of job seekers if you're comfortable doing that. Another option, volunteering. Great way to meet people and network. There are tons of professionals who volunteer. Plus again too, you can put it on your resume and it might be something, whatever you're doing might resonate with whoever's reading your resume. You know, here I have a real life example. So my colleague recently joined the board of a non profit and within I think a couple of weeks one of her fellow board members became a candidate we presented for one of our positions. So I can't promise that's going to happen. But volunteering and you're also going to feel good about yourself and it's a nice way of take a break from the job seeking. You know, another thing I, I've talked to several people about who've done this. You might want to take a part time job now. Less for the money, it's more about getting out of the house, you know, taking a break from the job seeking. Like we mentioned, meeting new people. One marketer told me she's really enjoying serving as a mentor to the more junior people who work at, I think it was Williams Sonoma. The one thing I should mention, like you clearly need to understand the implications of taking a job if you're receiving unemployment benefits. So I just wanted to make that note because for some people might not be worth worth it. And then here's my last piece of advice. I strongly recommend keeping politics out of your LinkedIn posts. It's really important to remember that about, let's say half of the audience will be on the other side of wherever you stand. So it's just really risky.
- [21:44]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, yeah, that's great, great advice and some, yeah, some great ideas there. And to, you know, as we wrap up here, you know, I know we've talked about a lot of the challenges and certainly, you know, there might be some more challenges yet to come. But you know, to kind of end on a, on a positive note, I guess a question for you, you know, what are some bright spots that those listening should consider?
- [22:11]
Sue Keith
I'm glad you asked this question because I, I feel like I'm often the voice of doom during our conversation. At least I have been for the last couple of years. So one positive and again, I'm going to go back to something we just talked about fairly ad nauseam. Well, full time jobs may be hard to find. There are a lot of freelancing contract opportunities out there and I'm wondering too if they will stay those opportunities will stay out there because as more and more companies experiment with using contractors instead of full time people, that may just become their norm. So definitely be open to that and make sure people know you're open to that. So not everybody assumes if you're looking, if they see you looking for a full time job, not everyone will assume that you're actually open to a contract engagement. So make sure people know that. And then we almost got through this without mentioning AI, but here we go.
- [23:04]
Greg Kilstrom
All right, good one.
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Sue Keith
AI is also an opportunity. So I like to say candidates should become conversant in AI. Actually, I'll expand that to all marketers, not just candidates. Not an expert, I'm not sure anyone can be, but knowledgeable enough to talk about the use of AI in marketing strategy during interviews. Because you are almost you should assume you'll be asked about AI during an interview. Just assume and be ready for it. You know, you've probably heard that saying that says you're not going to lose your job to AI, but you may lose it to someone who knows AI. Yeah, I tweak that. Say you're not going to lose a job opportunity to AI, but you may lose to a candidate who knows AI. So be as conversant as you can.
- [23:43]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, love it. Well, sue, thanks again for joining today. One very last question. I know I asked this to everybody, but since you've been on the show before, I know I've asked it to you before, but as with agility and improvement, might have a slightly different answer this time. So what do you do to stay agile in your role and how do you find a way to do it consistently?
- [24:06]
Sue Keith
Yeah, well, one of the I do love this question. One of the cool things about my job is I get to create a lot of thought leadership, which means I'm constantly talking with marketing communication leaders about the trends they're seeing, the issues they're grappling with right now. Doge. So while I myself may not do marketing per se anymore, this allows me to talk marketing every day with really interesting people. And if I if you don't mind, I have a shameless plug.
- [24:33]
Greg Kilstrom
Oh sure.
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Sue Keith
To that point, you know, I talked about the roundtables we're doing with communications executives and we also do them with marketers most almost every month. If you want to find the recaps of those conversations or on our blog page@landrum talentsolutions.com right right.
- [24:49]
Greg Kilstrom
Love it. Well, again, I'd like to thank Sue Keith, Corporate Vice President at Landrum Talent Solutions for joining the show. Thanks to our sponsor, Landrum Talent Solutions, a national recruiting firm specializing in marketing and HR positions. You can learn more about sue and Landrum Talent Solutions by following the links in the show Notes thanks again for listening to the Agile Brand brought to you by Tech Systems. If you enjoyed the show, please take a minute to subscribe and leave us a rating so that others can find the show as well. You can access more episodes of the show@theagile brand.com that's theagile brand.com and contact me if you're interested in consulting or advisory services or are looking for a speaker for your next event, go to www.greggkilstrom.com that's G R E G K I H L S t r o m.com the Agile brand is produced by Missing Link, a Latina owned, strategy driven, creatively fueled production co op. From ideation to creation, they craft human connections through intelligent, engaging and informative content. Until next time, stay curious and stay agile.
- [26:01]
Sue Keith
The Agile Brand.
- [26:05]
Domo Representative
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- [27:01]
Greg Kilstrom
Before we continue, I wanted to share a key strategic resource that a majority of the Fortune 500 are already aware of. Finding the best technology, business and talent solutions is not easy. With business demands and competitive pressures mounting, you need to be able to design, deploy and optimize optimize your technology to provide leading customer experiences while driving business growth. Those of you that have been listening to this show for a while know that this podcast is brought to you by Tech Systems, a global provider of technology, business and talent solutions for more than 80% of the Fortune 500. TechSystems accelerates business transformation for their customers. Whether you're looking to maximize your technology ROI drive business growth or elevate customer experiences. Tech Systems enables enterprises to capitalize on change. Learn more at techsystems. Com. That's teksystems. Com. Now, let's get back to the show.