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The Agile Brand with Greg Kihlström®: Expert Mode Marketing Technology, AI, & CX
#671: Going national while staying true to your local roots with Jay Rushin, H&H Bagels
00:22:27
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- [00:00]
Greg Kilstrom
Your brand may be staying on top of current trends, but are you agile enough to stay relevant, resilient and successful as customers, competition and the world continues to change at a breakneck pace? I'm thrilled to share the newly revised version of my first book, the Agile Brand. I'm calling it the Agile Brand Revisited. It's been updated to reflect our continually changing world, and it provides seven principles that form the backbone of an agile brand, offering detailed insights and actionable steps for incorporating them into your business strategy.
- [00:31]
Jay Rushin
This is the book that started it.
- [00:33]
Greg Kilstrom
All and I'm excited to share it with you. It's now available in print and digital formats and available everywhere. Learn more by going to the Agile Brand guide website at www.agilebrandguide.com.
- [00:46]
Jay Rushin
The Agile Brand.
- [00:55]
Greg Kilstrom
Welcome to season seven of the Agile Brand where we discuss the trend, trends and topics marketing leaders need to know. Stay curious, stay agile and join the top enterprise brands and Martech platforms as we explore marketing, technology, AI, E commerce, and whatever's next for the Omnichannel customer experience. Together we'll discover what it takes to create an agile brand built for today and tomorrow and built for customers, employees and continued business growth. I'm your host Greg Kilstrom, advising Fortune 1000 brands on martech, AI and marketing operations. The Agile Brand Podcast is brought to you by Tech Systems, an industry leader in full stack technology services, talent services and real world application. For more information, go to teksystems.com to make sure you always get the latest episodes, please hit subscribe on the app you listen to podcasts on and leave us a rating so others can find us as well. Now onto the show.
- [01:52]
Jay Rushin
How do you take a brand that's iconically local and make it feel authentic everywhere? That's a challenge facing every regional brand trying to scale when your name is practically synonymous with a place like H and H is with New York City, growth isn't just about expansion, it's about staying true to what made you iconic.
- [02:09]
Greg Kilstrom
In the first place.
- [02:10]
Jay Rushin
Today I'm joined by Jay Rushin, CEO of HH Bagels, a brand so New York it's practically a supporting character on episodes of Seinfeld and Sex and the City, Jay has been leading the charge to take this beloved local brand national. With over 70 franchises signed and new locations popping up from Boca Raton to Santa Monica.
- [02:29]
Greg Kilstrom
Jay, welcome to the show.
- [02:31]
Jay Rushin
Thanks Greg, appreciate it.
- [02:32]
Yeah, looking forward to talking about this with you. Before we dive in though, why don't you give us a little bit about your background and you know, how you came to H and H?
- [02:40]
Sure, yeah. I'll give you the kind of 32nd version, but I spent 20 years in finance, and probably the last five years of that I was looking around the country for a small business to acquire H. H just sort of kind of fell into my laps and, you know, worked from there. But I've been a lifelong foodie. You know, I'm the world's worst salesperson. So I had to find something that would fit my skill set so that I could actually succeed. So H, H bales sells itself and I could put my financial and operational acumen to work to, uh, kind of turn around and improve it.
- [03:20]
Nice, Nice.
- [03:21]
That's how we got here in 30 seconds.
- [03:23]
Great, great. So, yeah, I mean, and that's actually, that's a great segue to the first thing which is, you know, about. About growth. And so, you know, you. You landed at. At hh. There's a phrase that what got us here won't get us there, you know, won't get us where we need to go. So, you know, it's a phrase we hear a lot in business. How do you balance growth with also preserving that authenticity? You know, H and H certainly is a beloved New York City institution. So how do you. How do you balance those?
- [03:51]
Well, I'd say that I have. I guess I have a little bit of a different lens on the subject. You know, in my opinion, authenticity can also become a trap, limits evolution. So it's almost, you know, something you want to connect with, but you don't want to wrap your entire brand around because there's a lot of dangers to kind of that. So we want to stay connected to our history, all the amazing things that the brand has built over the half century that it's been around. But we also want to evolve and improve every day and become better at what we do every day. So I think that's kind of how we look at it.
- [04:33]
Yeah, yeah, definitely. So when you're opening locations in places like Florida, Southern California, how do you. How do you do, you know, kind of what you just said, you know, balance, balance some of that legacy, but also be open to the new and know, make sure the experience still feels like H and H. But even when you're thousands of miles away.
- [04:55]
Yeah, for sure. Well, I would say we connect that authenticity with our core product, our bagels. We use the same recipe, the same process that we've used for over 50 years. We still fully kettle our BO. Our bagels in New York City water. We use absolutely the best Quality ingredients and the bales and all of our products. So that's how I think we're most connected to that authenticity is the product itself. And then everything around that we want to evolve and improve. The entire customer experience is thankfully much different than the very traditional New York City bagel experience from 20, 30 years ago, which was not that great. So how do you connect a great product with a better service model than the traditional. That. That was the challenge that we took upon ourselves to. To kind of figure out that. That mouse trap. So.
- [05:54]
Yeah, well, and. And I think that's. That. That plays well to what you were saying, which is, you know, keep the good things, but be willing to evolve the things that need improvement. Because to your point, the, the bagel. The bagel re. Experience of 1985 or whatever, not necessarily what consumers are expecting today.
- [06:12]
Right, exactly. You know, I couldn't have said it better myself. You know, we. A lot of trials and tribulations to. To kind of land on the right service model because the bagel category is complicated and it has some unique challenges that other categories don't have. So you don't know what you don't know. Right. So 20 years in finance, I had to experiment and learn on the go. So, you know, that was an evolution in and of itself.
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Yeah.
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Once we landed on that, on the right customer service model, then everything. We were able to kind of build everything around it, and that's what we've done over the last decade.
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Yeah, well, and so that growth also includes franchise groups. So you've signed three new franchise groups, it sounds like, to open 20 new locations. How do you find the right partners? What are you looking for in a partner? And what do they need to understand about the brand?
- [07:14]
Yeah, I mean, I would say that all our franchise groups were probably up to the mid teens of different territories at this point. They're really, really passionate about the brand. They absolutely get what we're doing and where we're going. We love that about them. That's what attracted us to doing, doing deals and giving territories to these groups. And, you know, ultimately we want to work with those smart, driven, passionate groups that are aligned with the brand, aligned with the goals, and again, they kind of get what we're doing and where we're going. So we've had, you know, we're, we're, we're really lucky to have the groups we have already, and we're excited to continue opening, you know, the rest of this year.
- [08:01]
Yeah, yeah. And in that kind of understanding of the brand is it, you know, you mentioned the, you know, the product itself is, is kind of the thing that stays true and authentic. Authentic. Is it. Are you looking for partners that kind of get the product itself or is there a New York City connection? You know, how, how do you, do you balance those things?
- [08:22]
I would, I would say probably our first kind of half dozen groups were all connected to the brand, connected to the history. Yeah. Literally they, you know, you lived in New York City or grew up in New York City or, or thereabouts. And you know, you know how many times I've heard early on, like I used to go to H and H on the Upper west side with my parents while I was in elementary school. You know, so there was a real direct connection for the, for kind of those first movers in the franchise groups as we've now opened locations around the country and, and that interest level is, is broadening out. You know, there isn't necessarily that direct, you know, experience necessarily. It's might have been I lived in New York for a couple years during college or in my early professional career or you know, something like that that's a little less direct. But, you know, across the board, the brand awareness is extremely high.
- [09:25]
Greg Kilstrom
Want to learn more and join the discussion About Marketing and AI? Attend the premier conference dedicated to marketing and AI. That's Meacon, the Marketing Artificial Intelligence Conference from October 14 through 16 in Cleveland, Ohio. MEACON brings together the brightest minds and leading voices in AI. Don't miss this opportunity to connect with a dynamic community of experts, visionaries and enthusiasts. The Agile brand is proud to be the lead media sponsor of this important event. Register today@marketingai institute.com that's marketingai institute.com and use the code Agile150 for $150 off your registration fee. I can't wait to see you there.
- [10:17]
Jay Rushin
Talk a little bit about the evolution of the customer experience. So, you know, since you've been involved, you know, how, what were some of the things that you looked at and you saw some room for improvement and stuff like that?
- [10:29]
Sure. Well, you got to go back to your original like New York bagel model, which is effectively what I acquired and walked into in 2014. You know, the customer comes up, they place an order with a person. That person then disappears and goes and makes their order for them. And then you magically reconvene at a cash register and either you or the person that's helping you tells, tells that cashier what, what they got and you take your bag and you anyway. But you know, I guess, you know, coming. Coming with new eyes. It didn't. It didn't seem very efficient to me at the time.
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Yeah.
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And it didn't seem very customer friendly at the time. So my first thought was to do like all the QSRs did, and that you walk up, you place your order of the cashier, that order gets printed off in the back line, and then someone makes your order, comes and brings you the bag. And, yeah, you know, it seemed much more efficient. So in 2016, when we opened our second location at the time on the Upper west side, that's what we did. And it was an epic failure. It did not work. So. And that's where the complications of the bagel category comes in, because there's so many modifiers in the bagel category that the cashier ultimately wasn't able or willing to kind of type in that many details about every order. Light toasted, dark toasted, lightly spread, heavy spread, scooped on and on and on and on and on. So, you know, what we thought was going to improve that mistake profile actually did the opposite. And the mistakes went up. Customer satisfaction went down. So back to the drawing board. So that took some time to evolve and explore, and we really decided to go with the. Like that Chipotle model where it's all customer facing. It really clicked with us as it was thinking it through, that if the customer could almost participate in their order being made and the team member is facing them and communicating with them, that all of those modifiers can. Can be not only communicated to the team member, but also could be caught if something was going wrong. Because you're looking through glass and watching it being made. Yeah. So that's where we shifted. And our first model was out for the Moynihan train hall back in 2021. We could tell literally within seven days that we had finally figured out the kind of the mouse jack for the. For the bagel category. And then we went and closed our west side. We remodeled that, and that was kind of the final impetus to launching the franchise business, once we understood what that did for the model and how that could scale nationwide. So.
- [13:37]
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, so it sounds to me like even though the, you know, the very first attempt to change things was. Was not a. A pure success, it sounds like, you know, you're kind of being outside the. The industry, so to speak, coming in. You know, it forced a way of looking at things. And again, maybe the first attempt didn't. Didn't work as well, but the second attempt, to me Kind of sounds like a melding of the two of the two. Right. So it's like you've got to, you've got to maybe make a misstep once in a while to get to the right thing. Is that, is that how you see it?
- [14:09]
Oh, I have absolutely. I'm, I'm a firm believer that success only comes after multiple mistakes and you know, misdirection. So, you know, you have to be open to error to succeed in pretty much in anything in life, is my point of view.
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Yeah, yeah. So I first heard about H and H. I'm a huge Seinfeld fan. You know, I remember that episode well. Kramer was on strike and all that stuff. HH has been featured there on Sex and the City and others, you know, New York based shows and things like that. How does that cultural, you know, cachet factor into like how you market the brand?
- [14:53]
Sure. Yeah, look, we, we absolutely love that pop culture history that's like really the last golden age of true television and you know, it won't ever exist again pretty much for the history of the world. So, so we love that connection. But I've always told our, our marketing team that should never, it should never rely on it and it should never hold them back from evolving the brand, exploring their creativity and you know, having fun with, with all of that. So, so we touch on it from time to time. We, we, we, we definitely love, love that connection, as I said. But yeah, but you know, every, everybody's got, every brand needs to evolve and improve and grow otherwise, you know, weathers and dies.
- [15:44]
So yeah, yeah. And so, you know, you, you talked through how you modified the, the customer experience kind of prior to scaling as a, as a franchise. What are some of the things that either you learned or, or did once you started franchising and growing? You know, what, what needed to kind and stuff like that.
- [16:06]
Sure. You know, fortunately, 95% of it, we, we accomplished prior, prior to scout.
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That's good.
- [16:16]
And that's probably what took us so long. You know, a lot of people ask me what, what took us so long? Why now? And it's like, oh, why now? It's because we finally got everything done that, you know, we could legitimately look outward and, and be capable of scaling nationally and be successful. Scaling nationally. Yeah, it's not easy. Like may look easy, but the years of effort to get to this place is what, you know, people can't necessarily see. So it took us years to develop and build a 20,000 square foot bakery in Queens, New York. But now every single bagel globally is made out there and now we know that the product is going to be the same whether it's in Los Angeles, California, New York, New York, Boca Raton, Florida or anywhere else in the entire globe. So.
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Yeah.
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And then, you know, we already talked about the COVID customer service model. We updated and re our brand early last year. So, you know, really now it's just small evolutions and small changes. You know, as I alluded to with the franchise groups, we had a ton of really smart people and they bring us ideas. We have consistent operations calls with the ownership and the operators and we're very open minded to the new ideas and making adjustments on the fly.
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That's great. That's great. Yeah. So along those lines then, what do you see on the horizon? Is it continued growth? Where do you see things going?
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We've got a lot of new markets on the way, so Washington D.C. we're going to open next month.
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Nice. That's, that's my neighborhood, so.
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Oh great. West Palm beach and Jacksonville are opening sometime in the month of June. Knoxville and Tampa in August. We've got more locations in the early fall in Los Angeles and Jacksonville as well. Then we've got a lot more that we haven't announced yet in the back half of the year. So stay tuned. We've got probably at least a half dozen more cities coming by by end of the year.
- [18:22]
That's great. That's great. Well, thanks so much for joining, Jay. One last question for you. I'd like to ask everybody, what do you do to stay agile in your role and how do you find a way to do it consistently?
- [18:35]
That's a big question, I would say by nature. I'm a thinker, reader, researcher, explorer. That's just my personality. So, you know, from that vantage point, I'm a big, big believer that success comes from keeping a flexible, open mind at all times. So, you know, what does that mean to me? That means being open to failure, open to change, open to being wrong, open to someone out there having a better idea than you and accepting that that openness really creates a culture for, you know, evolution, growth, improvement and really kind of staying current.
- [19:20]
Yeah, yeah. Love it. Well, again, I'd like to thank Jay Rushin, CEO of H& H Bagels, for joining the show. You can learn more about Jay and H and H Bagels by following the links in the show notes.
- [19:32]
Greg Kilstrom
Thanks again for listening to the Agile brand brought to you by Tech Systems. If you enjoyed the show, please take a minute to subscribe and leave us a rating so that others can find the show as well. You can access more episodes of the show@theagile brand.com that's theagile brand.com and contact me if you're interested in consulting or advisory services or are looking for a speaker for your next event, go to www.greggkillstrom.com that's G R E G K-I H L S T R O M.com the Agile brand is produced by Missing Link, a Latina owned, strategy driven, creatively fueled production co op. From ideation to creation, they craft human connections through intelligent, engaging and informative content. Until next time, stay curious and stay agile.
- [20:25]
Jay Rushin
The Agile Brand.
- [20:30]
Greg Kilstrom
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