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The Agile Brand with Greg Kihlström®: Expert Mode Marketing Technology, AI, & CX
#677: Why thought leadership is more important than ever with Benjamin Shapiro, host of the MarTech Podcast
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- [00:00]
Greg Kilstrom
Your brand may be staying on top of current trends, but are you agile enough to stay relevant, resilient and successful as customers, competition and the world continues to change at a breakneck pace? I'm thrilled to share the newly revised version of my first book, the Agile Brand. I'm calling it the Agile Brand Revisited. It's been updated to reflect our continually changing world, and it provides seven principles that form the backbone of an agile brand, offering detailed insights and actionable steps for incorporating them into your business strategy. This is the book that started it all and I'm excited to share it with you. It's now available in print and digital formats and available everywhere. Learn more by going to the Agile Brand guide website at www.agilebrandguide.com.
- [00:46]
Benjamin Shapiro
The Agile Brand.
- [00:55]
Greg Kilstrom
Welcome to season seven of the Agile Brand where we discuss the trend, trends and topics marketing leaders need to know. Stay curious, stay agile and join the top enterprise brands and martech platforms as we explore marketing technology, AI, e commerce, and whatever's next for the Omnichannel customer experience. Together we'll discover what it takes to create an agile brand built for today and tomorrow and built for customers, employees and continued business growth. I'm your host Greg Kilstrom, advising Fortune 1000 brands on martech, AI and marketing operations. The Agile Brand Podcast is brought to you by Tech Systems, an industry leader in full stack technology services, talent services and real world application. For more information, go to teksystems.com to make sure you always get the latest episodes, please hit subscribe on the app you listen to podcasts on and leave us a rating so others can find us as well. Now onto the show.
- [01:52]
Unknown
If content is king, why does it feel like there are 100,000 royal families in a world drowning in blog posts, videos and AI generated everything. Content has never been more abundant or more commoditized. So how do brands cut through the noise? Today's guest has a few thoughts on that and more. Benjamin Shapiro, host of the MarTech podcast, has had front row seats to the shifting landscape of B2B marketing. With millions of downloads, Benjamin has interviewed the best minds in marketing and watched.
- [02:21]
Greg Kilstrom
Strategies evolve in real time.
- [02:23]
Unknown
From AI's impact on content to the growing need for thought leadership, Benjamin is here to help us separate what still works from what's just noise. Benjamin, welcome to the show.
- [02:34]
Benjamin Shapiro
Great. Great to be here. Thanks for having me.
- [02:35]
Unknown
Yeah, looking forward to talking about this with you. Before we dive in though, why don't you start by telling us a little bit about your background and your podcast.
- [02:45]
Benjamin Shapiro
You Want the clean or the dirty version?
- [02:47]
Unknown
I don't think we're going to check the explicit box on this. So maybe the clean version.
- [02:51]
Benjamin Shapiro
I'll go. I'll go. Halfway in between, I got drunk at a party, and after being a little overserved in the suburbs of San Francisco, pre Covid while my wife was eight months pregnant, waiting at home, I sat in the front seat of my Lyft. You know, back when people decided between Uber and Lyft, now it just seems to be Uber. And I was feeling talkative and, you know, started chatting with the driver. Yeah. And he said he was from North Korea. And I honestly corrected him. I was like, no, you're not from North Korea. You're from South Korea. Thick accent, hardly spoke English. He's like, no, I actually defected from North Korea. And I was like, tell me that story. And so he went off and started telling me about how he defected from North Korea into China, got caught, got put into a slave camp, defected again after he escaped and was swimming across river with people, like, shooting at him, and had to hike through three different countries and eventually defected to Silicon Valley and. And became a Lyft driver who was studying software engineering.
- [03:53]
Unknown
Wow.
- [03:53]
Benjamin Shapiro
And I was like, you gotta tell this story to other people. It was amazing. And he was like, I want to do that, but I don't know how. I'm like, this is a great podcast. This is, like, right after Serial had just sort of popularized podcasts. And he was like, yeah, I want to do one of those. And I was like, cool. Here's my business card. Call me tomorrow, and if you do, I'll record it and I'll turn it into a podcast. I didn't think I was ever going to hear from the guy. He was my Uber driver. Right. My Lyft driver. Right. So he shows up at my house the next day, and I was like, hang on, I got to go buy two microphones. And that was my first podcast. It's called A Long Road Home. And it was the story of Choel Charles Rieux and how he defected from North Korea to the United States. And it was an art project, but going through that process of doing something creative that I just felt like had to be in the world and a story I wanted to tell. I, A, learned how to create content. I had to figure it out on my own. B, I had this asset that I wanted to figure out something to do with. So I started doing some marketing and found a marketing channel. And so later on, a year or two later in my career, I was running up my consulting practice, and I wasn't really sure what to do as kind of at a crossroads in my career. And I was like, you know what? I did this podcast. Everybody seemed to like it. I feel really good about being able to tell stories. I'm going to see if I could turn some of what I learned into a professional venture. So I launched the Martech podcast, which grew like a bat out of hell. And I was a independent consultant helping, you know, Silicon Valley startups figure out their brand. And all of a sudden I had a media property, and then my consulting practice, and the media property kept growing and the consulting practice kept not growing. So I decided to double down on that, and I was just selling sponsorships. And over time, I started getting some notoriety for the Martech podcast, and people started coming to me and asked them to create podcasts for them. And so then it was a media business and a production business. And over time, the production business has sort of eaten most of the time. And now that's really what I focus on. And that's how I started. I hear everything and got here today.
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Unknown
Nice. Nice.
- [06:02]
Greg Kilstrom
Wow.
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Unknown
Yeah, that's quite, quite. The story starts with the story, right? So that's great.
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Benjamin Shapiro
That's what we do. We just tell stories over and over again.
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Unknown
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, yeah, and, you know, for those listening, definitely, definitely. Well, finish this episode first. But definitely recommend, you know, you check out the. The Martech podcast. Definitely some, some great, great stories there. So let's, you know, we're talking about content. Let's, let's keep talking about that. And as I mentioned at the top of the show, anybody listening to this, I'm sure, is well aware we're being flooded with content. And, you know, while some of it is, is still really good, it's been commoditized. And, you know, you've. You've talked about this quite a bit as well. You know, what, what about content being commoditized? And, you know, how did we kind of get here?
- [06:51]
Benjamin Shapiro
Yeah, content being commoditized makes it sound a little bit like it's a bad thing, and I don't think it is. And there's a life cycle to new content channels that takes a long time to unfold. So I think of the sort of going back into content. When you say content, I think most people probably defer to blogs, written articles that are meant for SEO to get traffic from Google to their website. And so if you take, you know, that sort of mindset, and you think about the, the growth Curve of blogging. Blogging came out and all of a sudden there were some superstars, TechCrunch and sort of these well known brands now that were like first movers that had, you know, sort of wild adoption and exponential growth. And then over time you started seeing the brands come in and saying, you know, we should probably do some blogging too. We can use Google as a marketing channel. And then all of a sudden the landscape was flooded, right? Everybody has content, everybody has a blog. It's table stakes. You have to. But it doesn't mean that it's not effective. Even if everybody else is doing it. You have to do it or you don't seem credible. You're losing out on a marketing channel. And so I think we're at the beginning of that adoption curve where with what I do, which we call it building media brands, I think a lot of people just think of it as podcasts. The definition of podcasts is kind of changing, but with podcasting it's starting to become table stakes. If you don't have some sort of way to produce media that is consistent, that is providing humanization, making your brand seem human, you just seem like this old stodgy company. And so like flooding the zone with this new type of media is not necessarily a bad thing. It still means that you should do it. I wouldn't expect the exponential growth like, you know, the Hustle or you know, these sort of early adopters, maybe even the Martech in that group, Martech podcast in that group. But there still is a consistent growth channel that comes out of this new medium that provides incredible value in terms of building awareness, authority, trust, consideration, like all the things your brand needs to survive in the long term. That's what this type of media is great for.
- [09:13]
Greg Kilstrom
Want to learn more and join the discussion About Marketing and AI? Attend the premier conference dedicated to marketing and AI. That's Meacon, the Marketing Artificial Intelligence Conference. From October 14 through 16 in Cleveland, Ohio. Meikon brings together the brightest minds and leading voices in AI. Don't miss this opportunity to connect with a dynamic community of experts, visionaries and enthusiasts. The Agile brand is proud to be the lead media sponsor of this important event. Register today@MarketingAIInstitute.com that's MarketingAI Institute.com and use the code AGILE150 for $150 off your registration fee. I can't wait to see you there.
- [10:05]
Unknown
So, I mean, really, as you mentioned, I mean it's not early days, so like the, the, the standouts may already be kind of Established or whatever, but it's kind of like table stakes, right? Is that is kind of what you're saying is like you kind of have to do that. I mean, doing, doing content. Well, that's a whole other thing. We'll talk about, we'll talk about that some as well. But it's kind of you, you need to have a way to create content. And I would say to do it at scale with, you know, it's, it's always like marketers are always being asked to do more with less. Right. And so, you know, that kind of brings to AI. Certainly we have to talk about AI on every show anyway, so let's, let's get there early here. So how is generative AI? Maybe in some good ways, maybe in some less than good ways, but how is generative AI contributing to content creation? Whether that's overload or whether that's just helping marketers do a better job? And where do you think it adds actual value for marketers as a copilot.
- [11:08]
Benjamin Shapiro
Not as a replacement? And how we use AI, our process is we ask everybody who comes on our podcast to fill out a form and give us information about who they are, what they want to talk about, what their background is. You know, do some work in terms of describing why you'd provide value to the audience, what you want to say. And then we use AI to analyze that, understand who they are, their area of influence, how credible they are. And we score all of our applications to understand who is actually going to be our best guests. We built an algorithm and use AI to sort of ingest our data and then tell us, hey, we think that this person's the best guest and this topic is the most relevant and interesting to your audience, you should approve this interview. We were doing that before. It's just a great way to synthesize some of the manual process that we were doing. Again, it's a copilot, it's not a replacement. Then once we decide who we are going to interview, we have all this understanding of who they are and we can pull in more data about their topic, their area of expertise. And then we take these templates that we use for our interview scripting and our research, and we have AI do a first draft of our interview script. You had an open that was articulate about content when we started this podcast. We use generative AI to write our first draft of that. And what it allows us to do is when we do our pre planning meetings between our guest and our host, instead of saying, hey, what do you Want to talk about how are we going to do this? It's like, hey, we've got this guide here and we've got this standard format of how we run our interviews and here's what we think we should talk about. Let's edit this document and we're using it again to be our first draft writer. And then the guest and the host are polishing it. AI facilitates that. And then in the post production there's another touch where we've got this great piece of content that we thought through what we wanted to say and we finally got together and had a good conversation. Now we've got this transcript and we can use that to distill down what the key points are. Give it to our video editors saying we think that this is the most interesting part of our content. Write our omnichannel supportive text content. So your tweets, your LinkedIn posts again, it's a copilot. I'm writing my own LinkedIn posts, but I take a transcript, I give it to LinkedIn, I have a tone and style guide and I have it do a format with, hey, write a hook first and then write a controversial statement and then write the bullet points that describe what my philosophy is, what I said in this podcast, and then give some sort of call to action at the bottom. Yeah, it drafts all that stuff for me. And so we're able to sort of explode the places we could put our content and right, size it using artificial intelligence. Instead of just saying, I've got a 45 minute podcast interview, I'm going to put it in one channel. What I hear everything does. And sort of the magic behind it is building the operating system that allows us to take this longer format content and right, size it for every channel. So we've got the personal touch for LinkedIn, we've got the graphics for Instagram. YouTube obviously is the behemoth, the 800 pound gorilla in the room. And each one of those channels needs different formats and styles of content. And artificial intelligence helps you produce all that.
- [14:30]
Unknown
Yeah, and I mean, I think what you've touched on several times there is just the idea that there are, there are human gatekeepers at all of those stages too. So it's like, you know, you're not going to put something out there that's just straight out of, of Gen AI, unless maybe sometimes it does happen, but it happens based on guidance and very clear criteria. But most often it sounds like, you know, a human's looking over it, they're revising it, they're making sure. That it's on brand and stuff, but all of the work that, you know, back in the day would take, I don't know, a team of interns or a team of people that, frankly, between you and I, may or may not be as good as generative AI. You know, I think AI can be really effective in some of these ways. Save a lot of people time and then sounds like, you know, the human teams involved get to be a little more strategic and make sure that things are pointing in the right direction rather than sifting through hours of footage for the right things.
- [15:28]
Benjamin Shapiro
Is that. Yeah. You know, where I think people fall down the most is they think once they write a prompt that they're done.
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Unknown
Yeah.
- [15:35]
Benjamin Shapiro
And there's this iterative process of prompt engineering and mostly when you're trying to harness tone and style. And I'll give you an example, like with our cold opens for the Martech podcast. The original prompt I wrote was like, start with a hook and then get some supportive data, do a web search and give me a stat that supports the controversial statement in the hook, and then provide a couple bullet points that support, you know, what people should do, and then introduce the guest. And artificial intelligence really struggled to make something compelling with that first sentence. The hook. Right. When we're sitting here and talking about content. The hook that artificial intelligence wrote, no matter how much I engineered the prompt, was something like, the world is changing and artificial intelligence is at the center of it.
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Unknown
Right.
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Benjamin Shapiro
That's not novel. But it doesn't. AI doesn't understand the context of interesting, controversial, eye catching. What it's great at is Forrester said 83% of people are already using AI, but 37% of people are not seeing positive ROI. Right. Like understanding and doing the refinement and search and finding compelling supporting data. It's really good at, but. But framing it, it isn't. And so we re engineered our prompt to put that, hey, here's the data up front. And then I go and write, you know, sort of the statement of what I want to say. But if I had just left the prompt, I would always have vanilla, uninteresting first line in my creative just stinks. And that doesn't help from a content creation perspective. So you have to kind of always go back and refine. And so I think what people miss out on is the feedback loop when it comes to AI, which is I use artificial intelligence to create a prompt. I get something, I'm going to edit this discrete piece and then they don't think of. All right. Here's the feedback. What I edited that. You need to give that back to the prompt so it continues to refine over time. And then you really start to be able to use it where it understands your tone and what you're trying to accomplish. And so you should continue to work on the same prompts instead of always re. Prompting.
- [17:55]
Unknown
I think we are so, some of us at least are so willing to just hand off the, like, outsource the, the work to AI, when, to your point, it takes some, some work. And I, I think it's also. People tend to forget that generative AI is only. I mean, you basically said this, but like, it's only telling us what we already know or what is already known. You know, it's not, it's not inventing new things. It's not coming up with amazing. It's gonna rephrase some provocative line from it heard from or read from somewhere else or whatever. It's not gonna, you know that. I think that's a great example of where humans are still needed and, but, but pouring, you know, pouring over stats on the Internet to find the right ones, like, that's a great job for, for AI, because who's got time for that? So it's interesting how, again, I've, I've often been again, surprised at how willing people are to just say, oh, I wrote a prompt for that, or give me a prompt for that, and then they think the job's already done. So. But yeah, I want to get to another part here which is kind of going back to the idea of, you know, there's a lot of content out there. We're being tasked with kind of to keep up. We're being tasked with creating more and more content. Certainly AI can help and areas there. How should we be measuring the effect of content? Again, there's more competition, so to speak. But how do you look at measuring effectiveness of marketing content and attribution, all of that stuff?
- [19:33]
Benjamin Shapiro
Yeah, I think it changes over time when we are working either on a new media brand or we're kind of taking over responsibility for an existing. We're doing a refresh. There are four stages that I walk our clients through in terms of what their expectation should be, and the evaluation criteria changes for each one of them. I don't think that this is new news, but if you're not consistently publishing and you don't have a high enough volume to be able to get content out there to get a signal, you're wasting your time. Right. Publishing, it's like a blog post Nobody became Internet famous by publishing one blog post. You have to consistently publish, and over time, it has compounding value. And so for the beginning sort of first quarter, all I'm really worried about is publishing consistency, getting ahead of the hamster wheel where you're not just like, this week, we're working on next week's content. We try to plan six to eight weeks ahead. So we are always working on next month's content. And so if something happens where a guest cancels or something like that, it's not like, well, we have nothing to publish. We're trying to get ahead of the publishing schedule for the first quarter. So just table stakes. Do we feel good about what we're publishing? Do we like the quality? Are we saying the things that we want to say? Are we putting the content in the right channels so we can get a signal? Don't even worry about whether you're growing an audience for the first quarter. Just get the content out there and that way you will have something to evaluate. And if you can't do that, well, it's a sign that either you in house or your production team are not mass. You're not doing the job right. You're not getting enough content out there to get a signal to figure out if it's working. People want demand and they want it. They want to capture, they want prospects, they want leads and they want attribution. They want it immediately. And you're thinking about it the wrong way. You should not be building a media brand. You should not be doing a podcast to try to get more value out of the 5% of the people that are already in your market. There are other channels that are better for that. Right. That's what your Google Ads are for. That's what your direct outreach for. Right. Like 5% of the people that could buy from you are ready to buy right now. And if you're relying on a podcast to get them through your funnel, you're. You're tripping over the starting line.
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Unknown
Yeah.
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Benjamin Shapiro
The purpose of the media that you're creating is to market to the hundred percent of people, not just the 5% that are in market, but the 100% of the people that are in your TAM. Right? The people that could buy from you. And mostly it's focused on the 95% of the people that are not actively looking to buy right now. They should already have knowledge of who you are. You should have credibility and hopefully you're getting consideration. Right. What you did last year is affecting your funnel right now. The purpose of the media is to build awareness, credibility and consideration for when you're in market. And by having your content and building credibility and humanizing your brand and showing that you have industry authority, all those things that matter and are really hard to track, like that's what is going to impact the long term health of your brand. So if you want to think about pipeline in the short term, creating media is not the answer. The reason why you need to create media is so you have a consistent way to stay in front of your entire tam. So when they become in market, they know who you are, they like you, they trust you and they consider your products. And so when we talk about the evaluation, first three months, table stakes, just getting the content out there, the next six to nine months is about audience development. Right? You're just building your audience and focusing on body count and things like downloads or YouTube views or social engagement. And then it's in the, basically the second year or the end of the first year, you're looking at things like share a voice. I've been talking to these people for nine months now. Are people, are they talking about us more? And then, you know, sort of in the, the first part of the second year, then you start to see the down funnel impact of, hey, we've been talking to these people for a year. They were out of market, now they're in market. How is that impacting our brand? So yeah, if you're thinking short term about demand capture and you're like, a podcast is going to solve all of my demand capture problems and I'm going to figure out attribution. You're, you're running into the desert looking for water.
- [24:06]
Unknown
Right, Right. Yeah. No, I think that's such a good point. And, and I think, you know, the very first thing you said there about consistency, I think is so, I think it's so underrated and it's so overlooked, you know, probably for the reasons you're saying, which is, okay, somebo, they're like, hey, let's do a podcast. And you know, two months later they're, you know, three episodes in, let's say, because they can't even keep to a, you know, to a, to a regular schedule. And they're like, hey, we didn't get any leads on this. Let's, you know, let's, let's bail or whatever. Is that just expectation setting from the beginning of like, hey, this is the, this is about the, the marathon, not the sprint kind of thing or, you know, how do you, I would say it's probably a Leadership thing of like, hey, did we get any leads from the podcast? And you know, the answer is probably no after three months, right?
- [24:54]
Benjamin Shapiro
Yeah. If you're a CMO and you're doing a content marketing and on some level of brand exercise and you're expecting demand, you're, you're doing attribution based on demand generation metrics or demand capture metrics, what are you doing?
- [25:08]
Greg Kilstrom
Right?
- [25:09]
Benjamin Shapiro
Like the purpose of this type of marketing is not to capture the in market demand, right? You, there's no click in an audio only podcast. Nobody's pulling their phone out and clicking on the show notes, but they just spent 25 minutes listening to you because they are clearly in your target market if they're listening to your podcast, right? And now you have credibility and you're the industry leader. So I think that there is a top down, what you're talking about, like a sort of an executive level understanding of the purpose of media where people fall down. They're like, I need to test a podcast. So how do we get it up in three weeks so we can test it in six weeks to see if it worked? And it's like, okay, I'm going to write three blog posts and I'm going to evaluate the overall impact of it on our brand in four days, right? It just takes longer than that. You need to consistently publish. You need to give it time to grow. Like people need to have patience. But on the flip side, if you look at the brands that are really thriving, right? They have, look at HubSpot, right? Everybody's like, oh my God, HubSpot lost all this traffic. I don't think HubSpot's upset about losing all their SEO traffic. And it was an intentional decision because they built the HubSpot media network and they're focusing on harvesting value coming from YouTube instead of focusing on non performing blog posts. They basically abandoned a huge portion of their web traffic because they found another source to get media out there. And they're using the podcast and the sort of thought leadership media to get visibility, obviously, build awareness, nurture, all the, all that good stuff. And then they're mostly using YouTube as their demand capture level, their man capture layer.
- [26:55]
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it makes sense. So as we kind of wrap up here, two things for you. I know we've touched on a little bit of this already, but you talk with a lot of, of marketing experts, a lot of B2B marketing experts as well. What do you think? You know, what's your advice for them? What's broken in B2B marketing today that needs fixing.
- [27:19]
Benjamin Shapiro
Yeah, I think we touched on a lot of it, which is understanding the timeline to maturity for a marketing channel. And I think that, you know, we work primarily with mid market, mostly B2B companies and there is a growth ceiling and there's a sort of a typical trend of I found product market fit, I found a marketing channel, I dumped a bunch of paid media budget into it. Sorry, paid budget, not media. I put a bunch of money into Google and Facebook and LinkedIn and I got my ads and now I can get the people that are in my market to become my customers. And great, they're happy and they're retaining and I have a good business. But I can't continue to dump money into LinkedIn because at some point I hit a ceiling and now I'm not targeting the people that are in market. So what do I do? And, and they hit this growth ceiling because they are relying on rented audiences, right? They're, they're trying to rent LinkedIn's audience instead of cultivating their own. And by continually marketing to your target market, whether they are in market or not, you will see the long term health of your brand continue to grow. And so that takes time, that takes patience. And there's this problem where all the CMOs are like, I'm in this job for 18 months and if I don't show demand generation now, it's going to be 12 months. But the problem is in 12 months from now when you've hit that ceiling, you're like, oh, I can't pour more money into this existing funnel. It's just spilling out of the sides of the funnel. So what do I do? And you're now too late, right? You need to invest in your organic growth, your owned audiences early because those channels take a long time to cultivate. Right? It's like growing a plant. You can't put a seed in the ground and expect food to be there tomorrow. You have to water it, you have to let it grow and then you wait for the fruit to show up and then you can harvest it. And I feel like we are just in this economy where we want sugar, I want to take a bite and feel the energy right now as opposed to growing our own food. And that to me is really the purpose of media. And the problem is people just don't have the patience, they don't have the expectations, so they don't make the investments early enough. And then you get 18 months in, you've hit your ceiling with performance marketing. You can't show growth and oh, I'm out of a job because I didn't cultivate organic growth through channels. Those have higher ceilings even if they take a longer time to convert. And that's the fundamental problem that mostly mid market B2B marketers have.
- [29:58]
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. Well, good, good insights there. One last question before we wrap up here. We could, I could definitely talk about this for, for a lot longer, but what do you do to stay agile in your role and how do you find a way to do it consistently?
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Benjamin Shapiro
I think the biggest, most important thing, and it's kind of like what I said with prompt engineering, is the feedback loop. And we try with everything we do when we are publishing content to not just say, okay, it's out there, but evaluate the content and then refine. And so whether that is, do we feel good about this? Should we modify our intro scripts? How does our client feel about the content? How easy is the process for them? We are nothing but systems thinkers and so we're always working on trying to refine the system to make content production faster, cheaper, easier for our customers. And if you don't have that feedback loop, whether it's evaluating the performance of your content or the process, you never get better. And so for us, it's making sure that no matter what we're doing, we have some sort of feedback loop. And we're always constantly trying to tweak and iterate and just not rely and make the assumption that what works yesterday is going to work tomorrow.
- [31:12]
Unknown
Love it. Well again I'd like to thank Benjamin Shapiro, host of the Martech Podcast, for joining the show. You can learn more about Benjamin and the Martech Podcast by following the links in the show notes.
- [31:24]
Greg Kilstrom
Thanks again for listening to the Agile Brand brought to you by Tech Systems. If you enjoyed the show, please take a minute to subscribe and leave us a rating so that others can find the show as well. You can access more episodes of the show@theagilebrand.com that's theagile brand.com and contact me. If you're interested in consulting or advisory services or are looking for a speaker for your next event, go to www.gregkillstrom.com that's G R E G K-I H L S T R O M.com the Agile brand is produced by Missing Link, a Latina owned, strategy driven, creatively fueled brand production co op. From ideation to creation, they craft human connections through intelligent, engaging and informative content. Until next time, stay curious and stay agile.
- [32:18]
Benjamin Shapiro
The Agile Brand.
- [32:22]
Greg Kilstrom
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