← The Agile Brand with Greg Kihlström®: Expert Mode Marketing Technology, AI, & CX
The Agile Brand with Greg Kihlström®: Expert Mode Marketing Technology, AI, & CX
#684: The founder of Reebok and CEO of Syntilay talk about AI-generated product design
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- [00:00]
Greg Kilstrom
Your brand may be staying on top of current trends, but are you agile enough to stay relevant, resilient and successful as customers, competition and the world continues to change at a breakneck pace? I'm thrilled to share the newly revised version of my first book, the Agile Brand. I'm calling it the Agile Brand Revisited. It's been updated to reflect our continually changing world and it provides seven principles that form the backbone of an agile brand, offering detailed insights and actionable steps for incorporating them into your business strategy. This is the book that started it all and I'm excited to share it with you. It's now available in print and digital formats and available everywhere. Learn more by going to the Agile Brand guide website at www.agilebrandguide.com.
- [00:46]
Ben Weiss
The Agile Brand.
- [00:55]
Greg Kilstrom
Welcome to season seven of the Agile Brand where we discuss the trend, trends and topics marketing leaders need to know. Stay curious, stay agile and join the top enterprise brands and martech platforms as we explore marketing technology, AI, E commerce, and whatever's next for the Omnichannel customer experience. Together we'll discover what it takes to create an agile brand built for today and tomorrow and built for customers, employees and continued business growth. I'm your host Greg Kilstrom, advising Fortune 1000 brands on martech, AI and marketing operations. The Agile Brand Podcast is brought to you by Tech Systems, an industry leader in full stack technology services, talent services and real world application. For more information go to teksystems.com to make sure you always get the latest episodes. Please hit subscribe on the app you listen to podcasts on and leave us a rating so others can find us as well. Now onto the show. When consumers can get AI generated designs completely customized to their needs, what does this mean for the future of brands and the customer experience? I have two guests on my show today. One is the founder of one of the world's most iconic shoe brands and the other is the co creator of the first AI designed commercial shoe. Today we're going to talk about what it takes to innovate and grow a brand and how things are both similar and different since Reebok launched its brand in 1960. And now Scintillate brings a whole new era of AI based designs to the market. To help me discuss this topic, I'd like to welcome Joe Foster, the founder of Reebok and Ben Weiss, the CEO of Scintillate. Joe and Ben, welcome to the show.
- [02:33]
Joe Foster
Oh thank you for inviting us. Thank you Greg.
- [02:35]
Ben Weiss
Great to be here.
- [02:37]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, looking forward to talking with both of you. And you Know, we're going to start at the beginning, so to speak, and talk with Joe about your journey. And for those listening, I highly recommend, if you want to learn more about the history of Reebok and Joe's story, that you check out his book, Shoemaker. But today we're going to hit at least some of the high notes here. So. So, Joe, can you talk a little bit about your motivations for starting Reebok and what drove your initial interest?
- [03:05]
Joe Foster
The motivation is quite simple because the family business, J.W. foster and Son, established my grandfather way, way back in 1895. Unfortunately, he died in 1933. I wasn't born till 1935, but his sons took over. So my uncle and my father had taken over the business and kept it running. That was okay whilst my grandmother was alive, but when my grandmother died, out came a feud, which I still don't know what the feud was about. But my, my father and uncle never really spoke to each other. They would exchange a few harsh words with each other, but that was it. So net result, a company run by two people who didn't speak. It was going down, failing. And no matter what I said or my brother said didn't make any difference. We couldn't, we couldn't get through. So the, the net result of that was that we had to find a way of making a living. So we, we decided the best way to do that was to set up our own company and that became Reebok. So that was the start. That's why. So the motivation was about. With nowhere to go with the family business, let's start our own company.
- [04:18]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, yeah, Love it. So you started in the sales and marketing function at Reebok. How did that inform the way that you thought about the brand as it grew internationally into, you know, one of the most recognizable brands in the world?
- [04:32]
Joe Foster
Well, I think like many, many companies, you start and you go a bit to the left, go a bit to the right, you change this and you, you find that really, you've got to move with, where's the business? Where can you find it? And we, we have to look for white space because we just left the family business. They were not going to fund us, obviously, so we, we had to bootstrap it right from the beginning, which meant everything was a bit tough and we had to go where we could find the money. So we started with cycling, we moved into athletics and running, and that was, that was really where we started to make a difference. And the white spaces were sort of orienteering, fell running, cross country, Running areas that we could go into. And eventually we found our way into the mainstream and we, we sort of really owned the athletics business in the uk and that's when we decided the next best thing to do was to move to the usa.
- [05:31]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, do you think that that sales and marketing foundation, that and your role in the company, I mean, did that maybe it was a practical aspect of it or just, you know, the need to, you know, to drive revenue, all that, did that, did that guide some of those, those early decisions?
- [05:49]
Joe Foster
Well, the thing is, what we, we didn't want to do what the, the family business had done. My uncle and father didn't speak. We're two brothers. We needed to speak, we needed to run the business, we needed it succeed. So Jeff, Jeff said, look, I'll look after the production, I'll look after the factory, you do everything else. Now we can call it sales and marketing, we can call it everything else, which is trying to find finance, all the things that you do to get a company going. And we were sidestepping, we were doing things, what's next, finding that white space. And so we moved about, we did a lot of things, but really it's when we decided to go to America at first that was a bit of a tough job going to America. It's like it's a long way off and it costs a lot of money. But we got a bit of luck there. The British government decided they would fund these adventures so they funded us to the NSJ show in Chicago which meant they bought the standard and they paid the airfares and half of our expenses whilst we were there. So that was a good deal, I could do that. And it was then finding out how to get in the American market, which took me 11 years, it didn't come overnight. But yeah, the main thing is though, we were doing pretty good in the UK and so that could fund efforts to get into America. And the 11 years seemed to go by pretty fast, you know, whichever way it's. And, and by that time in, in those 11 years running had grown from being a fairly good business to being immense in America. It was absolutely immense. And with it grew a small company called Nike, right. And a magazine which was Runners World. They both grew on, on the strength of the, of the market growing. And so we were lucky that we dropped into a market which was growing, expanding rapidly, so there was always a bit more room for somebody else to come in, so there's room for us. And when Runners World gave us five star ratings for Three of our shoes and that was the best rating you could get all of a sudden from trying to push on the market. The market wanted us and that brought us into the market. Two years in the market, we found another piece of white space and that was aerobics and that's what took us from 9 million to 900 million in four years. So landing in America and landing on another piece of white space, that made us big.
- [08:25]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, yeah. And yeah, as you said, that move and that focus on growth paid off, you know, eventually hitting 1 billion in sales globally as the best selling shoe brand. Along the way, you know, you mentioned finding the white space, finding those markets and you know, to me that's all about finding ways to innovate and whether that's finding a new market, finding a way to make a better product. What, what is true about innovation both then and now and, and what's different from what you're seeing?
- [09:01]
Joe Foster
Well, it depends. I mean the market has changed and always has changed and it keeps on changing. And now we're, we're into something totally different. And I think what you've got to be, you've either got to be the change, you've either got the one that does it or you've got to be next in, you've got to be up to date. You've got to really next with it to make sure that you're, you're not getting left behind. You know, the, the family business, they did get left behind because they were not looking at the market. They were just doing what they've been doing for 30 or 40 years and it failed. So I mean during that time we overtook, how did us, we overtook Nike and we actually became number one. Wow.
- [09:38]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah. Yeah.
- [09:39]
Joe Foster
And that was great. You know, it was great to do that and we were number one. When I stepped back, I stepped back in beginning of 1990, I stepped back and decided it was time for somebody else to run the show. But yeah, we had good fun and we innovated and you know, what's next? Well, you know what's next. We're now talking about 3D printing, but AI designing this is coming in. So it's, it's, it's moved on and the whole retail market has changed. There used to be small sports stores, now there's a few giants and they are now giants. They're, they're massive. They're probably bigger than most of the brands. Some of these retailers, they're so big and so you now have to look at that. But now we have online as well, right, so you can actually build a business online and. But like any business, it's getting the people to know who you are.
- [10:38]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, so you mentioned AI generated designs. I think that's a great segue to the next part of this conversation. And clearly you've had a lot of success. I mean you had the number one company in the world and your segment had a lot of success. What inspired you to want to be part of Scintillay?
- [11:00]
Joe Foster
Well, Ben reached out and he's not stopped reaching. That's the thing. He just keeps reaching and reaching and reaching and he's got so much energy and that's what you need, you need today is the energy to. Oh, that didn't work. Well, it worked all right. But we need something better and so this is, this is where we are now with Ben. It's really what we're, we're looking at is, is Ben is just, he just wants to make that billion before he's 30 and I can't blame him.
- [11:29]
Greg Kilstrom
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- [13:42]
Ben Weiss
Yeah. So we believe there's a really great opportunity to back content creators with their own shoes. Like athletes. There are tons of content creators that have amaz influence, their own fan bases, and they've got every merch item under the sun. Hat, shirt, shorts, hoodies, you name it. But for some reason, Greg, they never really have shoes. And the question has kind of been why, you know, why can't these people, who are some of the most influential people today, more influential than many athletes, get a signature shoe? And it's been because there's been three issues to doing that. One is that there's very high cost to make new designs. It takes a lot of time. Two is you've got to make a mold for every single size that you're going to create. And then three is you've got all this inventory, minimum order requirements for inventory, storage of that, et cetera. Well, we're like, you know, what if we could have a different method to go and back these people and see if they can do shoes? And we realized that artificial intelligence would be an amazing way if it's a change our process of design and then make it more cost effective and quicker. If you have AI generating most of your design, you cut down on your designer cost a lot, which now we have AI doing 70% of our design. And even soon we'll have it doing even more than that, which, you know, really nobody else is doing at this point. We now are 3D printing our shoes entirely. So every single shoe, there's no molds necessary and we print on demand, somebody orders. When we just make it for them, four to six weeks later, we send it to them. So this system here now takes three months to make a new shoe instead of 18 months. And it's a whole different method that we can say, hey, you know, X content creator, X brand, we can make you a shoe. And we can see how it will do in a couple months instead of waiting 18 months, which is the typical time frame. So AI makes a massive difference in this category and it's going to continue to design Stuff that just looks so exciting and different, which is what our brand's all about. We're designed by tomorrow. That's our slogan.
- [15:22]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, I love it.
- [15:23]
Ben Weiss
Yeah.
- [15:23]
Greg Kilstrom
I mean, there's so many, so many interesting aspects here. I mean, you know, you mentioned some of the, you know, the not needing inventory and all those things, and even just the speed to understand what works and what doesn't from a creative aspect. You know, you touched on this a little bit. But, you know, some of the initial designs for Scintillate were inspired by things like yachts and spaceships and things that you don't necessarily directly associate with shoes. At least, you know, can you talk about the freedom that AI generation allows?
- [15:52]
Ben Weiss
Yeah, the freedom is massive. And it's, it's a great point that you brought up. I mean, you can do stuff that's just impossible traditionally. And I mean, we started with this idea of like, why don't we take something that's luxurious and classy, like a yacht, and then also combine it with futurism and what's next with spaceships and let's put those two together. So, you know, we use ChatGPT, for example, to help make our shoes. ChatGPT is making your shoes now. And we gave it a bunch of different images of sci fi artwork and said, can you help us come up with code to shade our shoes like this? And it did. And that's something that's pretty, pretty interesting use case for ChatGPT in general. But it enables us to now take really interesting pieces of art and just inspiration and put it into something. And the shape with 3D printing is really limitless. I mean, we made the bottom portion of our shoe look like a boat. It's curved like that. We have a yacht bridge on the front of it. So you just like you would have on a typical, you know, a nice yacht, you have this like bridge portion at the top of the shoe and it adds a very nice angle to it so you can get really creative. And I think that's also what content creators want. They want to be able to be the creative director on their own product. They haven't done shoes partially because it shouldn't be another merch item. You know, it needs to be high quality. There's a certain standard set in this space and that's what we're delivering here. We've got a good factory partner, Zellerfeld, on it. They just did Nike's first fully 3D printed shoe. And we've been off to the races and know, trying to lead in this category, designing real shoes you can wear with AI.
- [17:12]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, one more key feature of the product is that they don't have traditional sizes. So, you know, they're printed, you know, for the consumer's feet. Exactly. How does this, you know, full customized approach change a brand's relationship with its customers?
- [17:30]
Ben Weiss
Yeah, it's, it's very different what we're doing here because, I mean, really, when you have, when you wear shoes, if you don't have the right foot, it can be, can be very problematic if you don't have the right fitting experience. And, and what we have here is we have a really simple way to get the right fit. We take a photo of each one of your feet next to an 8 by 11 piece of paper, normal piece of paper you have in your printer, and it takes one minute to take a picture. And through the system that we have, we're able to get 12 different data points, your arch, height, length, width, instep information, et cetera. And they custom make each shoe individually to each foot. So you've got each foot being taken care of because sometimes your right foot's bigger than your left, and people find that out when they go through the scanning system. And, and we still take your size information just in case, you know, we have that as reference. But now you're getting a custom one of one pair made for you specifically. And it's not even close to as expensive as what custom shoes have been before. I mean, you could spend a thousand dollars, a couple thousand dollars on custom shoes. This is $150. When we came out, we were the most affordable 43D printed shoe you can get. And I think that this has also got an amazing amount of traction because we've got the advice and leadership of Joe, and Joe's a living legend, and to have that and have him advising us as we built this out, I mean, it's been, been really incredible because now, you know, the product's up to par with what a lot of, a lot of great brands have made before. Especially with Reebok's done, I think we're really getting in that direction.
- [18:50]
Greg Kilstrom
Love it. Love it. Well, yeah, let's. So for, for both of you now, I'd love to ask just, you know, a few more questions as we, as we wrap up here first. And Joe, we can start with you. You know, is artificial intelligence the future of, of product design and what does that mean for brands and the product design function?
- [19:09]
Joe Foster
Well, I think what AI does now is it gives you an extension To a designer's way of thinking, you can design something, put it down, then it can go to chat beauty and say, just look at this and give me 10 different ideas. Throw a bit of this in and this is what it will not do away with the designer. The designer will always be there having original ideas, show it a hundred different ways. And, and, and you can do that just pressing a button, you can do that that quick. Whereas in the, the old way of designing you just had to do a bit more, change this a bit, change that a bit. It was all done drawing. You could do computer aided design, but it didn't actually do anything more than draw the line straight that you were drawing. It would, it would do it a bit differently. But no, I mean, so the, the designer now, he, he has a tool which is so brilliant, that tool now is so good that this design is going to come up with anything. You're going to see some wild things in the future. It really is incredible. What is going to happen with design 3D printing, well, we've got to get that speeded up a bit, which, which is possible, but it's like anything else where there's a demand, there's creativity. So if, if there's a demand for 3D printing, there'll be more creativity with 3D printing and they'll be able to speed this up, they'll be able to make it different. So, you know, we, we're just creating the interest there. Let's hope we can get that to, to move along as fast as we would like. But you know, we, we're going to be flexible. We're going to be traditional as well. We're going to be, we're going to use AI and go tradition, no limits.
- [20:58]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah. Love it. Yeah. Ben, what are your thoughts about the role of the product design? I mean, as you're starting scintillate, what is that role of the product design function given the role of AI as well?
- [21:10]
Ben Weiss
Yeah, I definitely agree with Joe on this. And we don't see the human designer being replaced. I do think there's going to be major pieces of what the typical designer does that are going to be replaced with AI and then the designer can actually spend a lot more time on really interesting outside the box ideas instead of the minutiae. You know, for example, like with our process of designing a shoe with AI, you know, we started instead of spending a lot of time sketching out and just telling your designer what you want and showing image references, we did this together with the designer and just generated Images and did them really precise with AI to the point where we pretty much had a concept that looked like what we wanted with that. And then he made a sketch based on that. So we didn't have to spend all this time going back and forth. And then we also used AI to generate a 3D model. We could have spent all this time by hand making a 3D model going back and forth on that, but the generation was much more precise. Then we use another AI to generate patterns and textures all around the shoe too. So these are steps that could have been done by hand. We still have the designer involved and guiding us. And I don't think it would have come out as nice as it has without the designer being involved. But this now freed up more time for more interesting ideas. So you get a shoe that comes down, it looks like a yacht in a spaceship. You don't really get that typically because you have the time to kind of think outside the box and you can play around with it. But AI design is one piece of this. Like Jill mentioned, we're going to go traditional with production, with AI design. But with 3D printing, you can really capture the imagination with what's possible. You can make stuff that's so out there and so different with AI design and free its limits in terms of production. So that's part of the reason we want to start with that, to show the world what's possible. And the world has recognized that. It was on the front page of USA Today and some other great places because it's been such a breakthrough product in this space. And now it's about time to give creators a shot.
- [22:48]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, yeah, I love it. And so then, you know, more broadly speaking, even, you know, outside of the world of shoes, even, you know, a world where consumers can get customized products exactly how they need them and how they want them. Again, the size thing, you know, basically made to, you know, made to the exact size and scale and all those things certainly opens up a lot of potential. Do you think this is going to be the norm, you know, within a, within a decade and you know, what should brands be doing to be prepared for this eventuality?
- [23:21]
Joe Foster
Well, as I said, things move on and things change. You know, when I started the retail business or just small sports stores, you, you used to have to stock your own product and send a dozen shoes to, to a sports shop. Now the whole thing is different. You go meet in the big guys and they'll give you a 12 month order. There's some flexibility in there, but really they're giving you 12 months worth of work. And then you as a brand, all you see is samples. You never see any production. It goes direct from the factory to these big retailers. So this has all changed and that's not going to change back. People are not going to go back to small orders. It's going to be 12 month advanced orders. So when it comes to making shoes, it's the same way. You know, we've already now gone to AI and I think everybody's going to use AI they're all going to bring that in. Maybe the big guys will just stick it on one side for the time being and just see how it can work. Because I mean there are lead times on. Traditional shoemaking is as Ben said, 18 months from an idea to becoming a product. And you know, they're so well into that and that's how it happens. But these things are changing. So you get to the point and if, if we can get 3D printing to the point where yes, it can have different materials coming through because at the moment it's just all, all one TPU material, thermoplastics and people have some brilliant ideas and all of a sudden you find that you've got a different material and sometimes because of the materials you can use, the whole product will change. So the product is changing from being what it is. You know, we never thought that Crocs would be as big as they are. We all thought that was just an old fashioned thing. Right, well, an old thing to be. But now, now they're becoming fashion and again one, you can see them all over the place now. So, you know, things will change. Everything is changing. So yes, expect change, be part of it, create it. And you know, that's what we're trying to do. So the, the other people were doing just the same. It will change. Everything is on that point of what let's change. And I think the political situation is encouraging that.
- [25:44]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, yeah. Love it. Yeah. Ben, what are your thoughts? I mean, does this mean, does this open up new product categories for scintillate down the road or how do you see AI kind of opening up potential there?
- [25:57]
Ben Weiss
Yeah, I think it's going to open up a lot. I mean we now have a two pronged approach, Greg, with what we're doing. First stage of this, I mean as Joe's mentioned about the scale, the scale with 3D printing is not fully there yet. So first stage for us is like partner with X creator, X brand or even just put an interesting design out and see how it does. And we can do that so fast. Instead of 18 months, we can do it in three months. And it's even getting faster than that at this point with 3D printing and AI design, because we've really automated majority of all the processes involved. So because of that, now we can test ideas really quickly. We don't have to spend a year and a half to find out if something will work and if it will work or if it won't work. And so we have this big competitive advantage there. Then we could take that design and we could produce it traditionally and we could scale it from there, which we already know. If the design works, you know, we'll have that insight and we'll. We'll know if this brand works in the footwear space. We'll know this creator will work in the footwear space very fast. So we can now take some of these risks that other brands aren't necessarily able to do, and we can cast a wider net in terms of who can sell shoes and what types of designs will work. So now we want to do that, and that's exactly what we're doing. We have four different partnerships we've already signed with brands and creators, etcetera, to go in and do this and have them come in and be the creative director on their own version. And then we're also working on scaling to, you know, to retail and to have a mass marketplace because 70% of shoes today are still bought in stores. People want to try them on, they want to feel what they're like and get the right fit there. And so, you know, we're working on scaling out, but I think that AI is going to produce some really exciting designs, and I think that will differentiate us even as we go in retail without 3D printing.
- [27:27]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, love it. Well, Joe and Ben, thanks so much for joining today. One last question for each. I'll ask the same question to both of you. I like to ask this to all my guests. Joe, we'll start with you. You know, what do you do to stay agile? And how do you find a way to do it consistently.
- [27:45]
Joe Foster
To stay agile? At my age, I'm not quite so agile as I used to be. And so what I do to stay agile is I meet people like Ben.
- [27:53]
Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, love it. Love it. Ben, how about you?
- [27:57]
Ben Weiss
Yeah, well, I try to just surround myself with really good people that have a lot of knowledge that I can learn from, like Joe. And, you know, I also go to networking events fairly often and just try to get a pulse on what's going on and read pretty frequently too. So I think it's so important to just learn from the best and be around the best. And that's an amazing way to stay agile.
- [28:16]
Greg Kilstrom
Love it. Love it. That's why I do this show. Well. Again, I'd like to thank Joe Foster, the founder of Reebok, and Ben Weiss, the CEO of Scintillay, for joining the show. You can learn more about Joe, Ben and Scintillay by following the links in the show Notes thanks again for listening to the Agile Brand brought to you by Tech Systems. If you enjoyed the show, please take a minute to subscribe and leave us a rating so that others can find the show as well. You can access more episodes of the show@theagile brand.com that's theagilebrand.com and contact me. If you're interested in consulting or advisory services or are looking for a speaker for your next event, go to www.greggkilstrom.com that's G R E G K I H L S t r o m.com the Agile brand is produced by Missing Link, a Latina owned, strategy driven, creatively fueled production co op. From ideation to creation, they craft human connections through intelligent, engaging and informative content. Until next time, stay curious and stay agile.
- [29:27]
Ben Weiss
The Agile Brand.
- [29:31]
Greg Kilstrom
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