← The Agile Brand with Greg Kihlström®: Expert Mode Marketing Technology, AI, & CX
The Agile Brand with Greg Kihlström®: Expert Mode Marketing Technology, AI, & CX
#691: Gaining agility and results with composable CMS, with Mark Wheeler from Storyblok
00:27:53
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the Agile Brand.
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Welcome to Season seven of the Agile Brand where we discuss the trends and topics marketing marketing leaders need to know, Stay curious, stay agile and join the top enterprise brands and Martech platforms as we explore marketing technology, AI, e commerce, and whatever's next for the Omnichannel customer experience. Together we'll discover what it takes to create an agile brand built for today and tomorrow and built for customers, employees and continued business growth. I'm your host Greg Kilstrom, advising Fortune 1000 brands on martech, AI and marketing operations. The Agile Brand podcast is brought to you by Tech Systems, an industry leader in full stack technology services, talent services and real world application. For more information, go to teksystems.com to make sure you always get the latest episodes, please hit subscribe on the app you listen to podcasts on and leave us a rating so others can find us as well. Now onto the show. Is your CMS holding your creativity and marketing growth hostage when speed and agility are everything? Most marketing teams are still stuck in the slow lane waiting on developers to publish updates, launch campaigns, or even fix a typo. Sound familiar? Today's guest says it's time for marketers to take the wheel. Mark Wheeler, Chief marketing officer at StoryBlock is here to talk about redefining what a CMS should be with a composable API. First platform that puts control back in marketers hands with with clients like Netflix and Adidas, StoryBlock is helping to lead a movement away from bloated, outdated systems and sort of faster, smarter and more flexible way of working. Mark, welcome to the show.
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Hey Greg, it's good to be here. I feel like you've done my pitch for me there.
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All right, end of show. It's a short one today. Awesome. Well before we dive in though, there is plenty more to talk about. Before we dive in, we're why don't you start by giving a little background on yourself and your current role at StoryBlock.
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Yeah, I've been with StoryBlock now since the end of August last year. It's a great company where what's actually quite interesting about it is we're actually 100% remote, so we don't have any offices. So we have the 270 employees around the world, believe it or not, in 50 different countries.
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C
Oh, wow.
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So it's a very interesting business. Doing some exciting, you know, really, I think being pretty disruptive. In the category before that, I actually used to work for, I've been in tech actually for about nearly 30 years now, but I worked for a German software company before that in the enterprise software category and I was CMO there for three years. Very exciting ride. We actually ended up nearly tripling the size of the business and selling to SAP in, in November of 2023. But I've also worked for companies such as Adobe Sitecore that are also, of course, very prominent in this category.
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Yeah, yeah, love it. Well, we'll have to talk at a future time about the distributed workforce. That's a fascinating topic to me, but today we're going to focus on the CMS aspect of things. What. Why don't we start with, you know, as you mentioned, you've been working in Martech and tech for quite a while now. What have you seen as far as, you know? Why are traditional content management platforms often struggling to fit the needs of modern marketers?
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Yeah, well, you know, one of the reasons that I joined storyblock was that as a cmo. So forgetting about for a second the company that I work for, sure. What I, what I saw were pain points that folks like myself were experiencing every day. And you know what it's like when you're chatting with your marketing team. They're like, oh, hey, Mark, I know you want to get this done in the next week, but, you know, I've, I'm going to have to raise a ticket for this. I'm going to have to get this job posted with a couple of developers and, you know, they're telling me they're not going to be able to get back to us on this until, you know, probably later next week. So this is going to take us a couple of weeks for us to get this thing done. And that is just a very familiar story. This, this sort of ticket environment in which we've got ourselves embroiled in and, you know, we've created a latency that's really holding us Back. And I think the problem is, depending on Whether you're in B2B or B2C, the need to get stuff posted digitally, because that is our primary shop front today, is not measured, doesn't want to be measured in, in, in weeks, maybe not even in days. Most marketers would love the opportunity to get stuff posted in about an hour. Yeah, but that isn't today's reality. Part of the reason for that is, is that the CMSs that exist today, they were fundamentally built for a different era. They're rigid, they're highly developer dependent and they're not scalable. So like I say, when marketers want several changes or they want to experiment, even, you know, really start to jump into some innovation, these platforms are holding them back.
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Yeah, yeah.
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The other challenge is we're not just marketing to a web browser anymore. Of course, a lot of businesses now, of course, deliver content through mobile applications, whether it's on iPhone or Android. And of course they want a single, single content repository to be able to service a multitude of different platforms. So marketers spending more time chasing tickets than shaping campaigns.
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Yeah, yeah, well, and it's also kind of counterintuitive because data is getting democratized. In other words, marketers have readier access to information in which to make quicker decisions. And yet to your point, when it comes time to actually make that decision and make it so, so to speak, they're held back because of things like you're talking about, you know, whether it's submitting a ticket or just technical limitations and. Oh, if I could only just make this happen myself. Right, yeah, yeah.
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And, you know, I, we, we have, we have quite a few customers in the fashion category.
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Yeah.
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And the challenge for them now is, you know, particularly with social media, of course, influencers or those people that, you know, who get photographed regularly.
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Right.
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They may be wearing something on a Sunday, you know, Kim Kardashians wearing something on a Sunday, you know, first thing on Monday morning, they want to be merchandising.
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Yeah.
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That, that top or that dress, whatever it is, first thing, or something that looks close to it. So that's, you know, that's the speed with which marketers are looking to move and they're just finding it a real challenge.
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Yeah, yeah. And so what's the, there's, there's, obviously there's limitations from a process and a, like internal structure, you know, organizational structure standpoint. But let's talk a little bit about the composable aspect of this. How does, you know, we've talked about composable plenty on the show. But how does a composable CMS help solve some of these issues? What's the composable aspect of it?
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Yeah, so what you're finding now is in a headless and API first world, the relationship between marketer and developers is changing because the developer is now able to build these pre built components. So think of it as a layout structure. It's the image belongs here, headline belongs here, subhead belongs here. So you've got essentially a component that defines the structure of how it wants to appear regardless of device. And so with that in place, the marketer now simply uses drag a photo, type in a headline, type in a sub headline, apply their copy so that the structure and the setup is already pre configured. So, so for a marketer now I'm empowered to publish myself. Yeah, I don't need to engage the developer. They've provided me everything I need in order to be able to execute. So now the timeframe is totally on me. And you know, and AI is also starting to play a really important part here too because now, you know, you might want to be able to implement in different languages or you might want to ideate with another content writer. Some of these things can be done incredibly quickly now. But this concept of a pre built component is what changes the game for marketers. With a visual editor, what you can do is simply take control of the publishing process and the creation process yourself and get your content out to market as quickly as you can essentially produce it.
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Yeah, and I think an important part of that is that it doesn't do away with the developer. There's still for all the talk of AI replacing at some point maybe that comes to pass, but in the near term or whatever, you know, there's a place for developers, you know, to your point, like they play a critical role in making sure that things are set up, but they're not in the way of marketers. They're, you know, everybody kind of gets to play a strong role. But then marketers can just do what they need to do at the speed they need to do it, right?
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Yeah, totally. And think about the flip of that, which is one of the things that I've seen over the years is that marketers get so frustrated with developers because, you know, they want to. It's like, oh, one of our competitors is doing this and oh, look how cool that is. And then they say to the developer, could we do something like that? Could we? Or maybe even better. And then the devil says, well, you know, with the time that you're giving me and I've got these other projects on, I can't get it done. Or the frameworks in this monolithic CMS don't allow that. Yeah, so, so with this, when we turn the table, suddenly we're giving developers now way more time not, you know, spending time removing commas and changing headlines.
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Right.
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And really being able to start spending time on doing the cool stuff that is then going to enable the marketer to even step up the game even further. Yeah, so it's a real win win by changing this, this whole paradigm.
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Yeah. And you know, you mentioned, you know, headless and to be able to publish to multiple types of platforms and channels and everything like that. I mean in addition to that being able to integrate with a lot of different platforms and you know, customers are expecting a lot more self service and a lot more, you know, functionality at their fingertips, so to speak. API first seems like, you know, it's a, it is, it's a buzzword but it's also, you know, it's, it's real, it's, it's kind of like AI, like AI's hype. But there's, there's reality to it as well. You know, can you talk a little bit about API first and you know, what does it mean in the context of a CMS and why it matters?
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Yeah. And look, those two stories actually of AI and API are actually intertwined as well. But yeah, maybe I could kick off with a little, little story on that to articulate why it becomes important. Yeah, you're very. And so this is a B2C thing. But recently I wanted to buy myself a new iPad. And one of the big department stores in the uk, whom many of us trust, big name, sent me, sent me an email saying, look, we've got a hundred pounds off this iPad. And I'm like, wow, There's a story 15 minutes from me. I'm going to jump in the car, I'm going to go and pick this thing up. I'm pumped. I'm gonna go get this thing. So I got there and went up, went up the stairs, met the, the lady at the, in the, in this Apple area and I said, look, I see you got £100 off. This is the model I like. I see that you have one in stock. Yes, please.
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Yeah.
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And so she then brings up her, her own iPad which is actually, actually accessing their stock system and pricing system, says well I, I'm sorry but I don't actually have it at this price. I've got it at 100 pound more, I'm afraid. So I can't give it to you. Hold on. No, no, no, no. Let me show you what it says on my iPhone here. And in addition to that, in the retail environment, you know, I guess many of you have noticed now that often in front of products there's a little screen that provides a point of sale. And I said, look, it also says it's 100 pound cheaper here.
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Wow.
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So anyhow, the point, my point being is content consistency is really important in the customer buying experience. And what has happened as we've proliferated screens across the buying experience? The content is also proliferated. Maybe it's been copy and pasted, but essentially it's not been a singular source of content. And so this move to headless and API first has meant that what we've been able to do is essentially bring a singular source of content that can span the differing screens and experiences that customers might have in the buying journey. That's a very B2C context, but also it's very relevant in B2B. Think about what our website is showing and think about the information that our salespeople have in order to engage their customers. So it's consistency, you know, it's not aesthetic, it's really, it's something that's really strategic.
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Yeah, yeah.
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The other thing that I think really stands out in an API first stack like this is that developers, there's been a whole range of new frameworks and tools that have arrived in the last several years. And of course you want to enable your developers to use whatever frameworks they prefer to use. Productivity is faster, they can do the cool things that they want to do, and then marketers can control the message and focus on that. So that's the second thing. Then things like personalization, localization, experimentation, all these things become infinitely easier. Yeah, but I, I said I'd connect your AI.
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Right, right.
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With the API. Look, in, in the next two years, there's just a, in fact, it may even happen sooner, who knows? But consumers are moving from the traditional search environment to a, an AI search as a preference. Now, it's not become the leader yet, and who can tell how quickly that will happen? But the question is, are your consumers still using Google or are they using ChatGPT to find out?
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Yeah, yeah.
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Now if you're going to be relevant in this AI search environment, you need an API first cms, because it's that API first CMS that enables these GPT environments to interrogate your content and to be able to consume it and then be able to restructure it and repurpose it and form it into the answers that people are looking for.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So in this next stage of the way consumers are discovering information, discovering content, you know, the game of SEO as it is today is going to change.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And so if you're not starting to think in terms of an API first approach to your content management, then you run the risk of becoming invisible in this new AI led content discovery.
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Yeah, I mean, I see it as, I mean, I try to draw parallels because I think it helps. You know, it was, um, with mobile, right? So it was like, it was the year of mobile for like five years in a row. Like, everybody kept saying, it's coming, it's coming, it's coming. And it didn't. And then all of a sudden it did. And you know, all of a sudden when it tipped to, you know, there's more mobile traffic than, than, you know, traditional, you know, laptop desktop traffic or whatever, it was a, it was a very quick change all of a sudden, you know, it took forever and then it, and then it didn't. Right. So, I mean, it feels kind of that way. I mean, I see, you know, just with the customers that I work with and, and what I'm seeing is like, it's, it's, it's upticking, you know, it feels like it's taking forever. But I don't know about you, but
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I'm definitely at tipping point between when do I use Google or when do I use Copilot or when do I use Chat GPT.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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I'm guessing my own behavior is probably about 50, 50 now.
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Yeah, yeah, I know. And it's, it's funny how it, that it kind of creeps up on you, but it just, it becomes, and then it becomes a habit. Right. And then. Yeah, yeah, that's how it happens with, with everybody. One other thing I want to talk about. You know, we've, we've focused a lot on the, the technical and, and the, even, even a little bit on the process part of this. I want to talk about the, the creativity part of this too is just, you know, it's when marketers are able to get what they need more quickly, when they're able to rely on data to make decisions and make those decisions more quickly. What kind of, you know, creativity does that unlock? And, you know, and freedom to do things that may have otherwise been, oh, that's going to take too long to do or things, you know, how should marketers be thinking about creativity as well.
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Yeah, look, I think when you start to have this type of data and with these types of tools, then your ability to start tuning your message to your Persona, starting to tune your message to where a buyer is in their journey, then suddenly creativity, I think, can take you to a whole bunch of new places. Give you an example. Actually, this is one my own team is working on right now, which is quite exciting. We've built a propensity model for accounts that are well suited to a StoryBlock purchase. We've mapped them against intent data, and from that, we've reshaped our entire nurture process. And so that essentially, when we're nurturing our customers, we're start. We're looking at them by Persona type, but we're also looking at an intent score and starting to adjust our messages accordingly. So if, for example, Greg is, you know, we've determined Greg's an ideal customer for us.
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Right.
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If. But. But we've noticed he's actually not been very active on the topic of trying to understand the latest in CMS technology, then the message will be, hey, Greg, you know, I noticed that you haven't been looking at this technology, but there's a lot going on in. Out there in the world, and it's probably perhaps time for you to think about it. Here's why. Versus if you had a very high score, then the message is, hey, Greg, look. I see. I see your. Your maybe some things is going. Is a foot.
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Yeah.
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With your organization in terms of making a change. Don't make a change. And could tell you spent some time listening to what StoryBlock could do to potentially help you.
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Yeah.
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So as we start to capitalize on the data that's available to us, I think we have tremendous potential to really start tuning in contextually more effectively to our buyers. So it's partly about personalization, but I'm a big believer also in contextualization and being there with the right content, the right conversation at the right time. And that's a big focus. One of the big focus projects in my team right now.
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Nice. Nice. Yeah. Because, I mean, it can be technically the right message, but if it hits you at the wrong time, if it's too early, too late, or just, you know, whatever, then it's. It's technically personalized, but it's not. It's not the right message. Right.
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Yeah, I. I see. I see so many issues with personalization as it is today.
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Yeah.
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You know, Dominic, the CEO of StoryBlock, he has a great line which is Personalization has been purchased by 8% and used by 0%. And the reason being is so many personalization projects have really failed to get off the ground because of the way they're applying data with the message. A personal example of mine was back at Christmas, I bought my wife a dress for a Christmas present. I thought that was going to win me some brownie points. Now the interesting thing is that brand has continued to market me dresses. It's a failure and they didn't really understand the context of the purchase or really look to understand what I was trying to trying to buy. Their actual real understanding of me as a consumer was predicated on a singular data point. And that's a typical example of what's leading to a lot of personalization fails today.
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Yeah, yeah. Well, as we wrap up here, just a couple things for you. I want to kind of tie it all together. I mean, throughout you've mentioned some of the things related to things like roi. I mean, certainly execs are being tied to that. But I want to maybe ask two questions and one here is how do we tie all this together to make the right investment decisions? It sounds like there's a lot of compelling reasons to, to go with composable and all this. And where should leaders be looking ahead in the next couple years for the future of cms?
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Yeah, look, I think it is a difficult conversation to have partly because many organizations have had their current CMS for maybe five, maybe seven years. And so making a transition from one technology to another probably is too big a bite in one singular step. So a lot of what I'm seeing is that many organizations who are on these monolithic legacy CMSs are looking at particular projects. Maybe it's a new product launch, a new campaign launch, maybe a new entry into a market. And what they're doing is they're adding a modern headless CMS in addition to their existing. And so this particular what they're finding then is that project has been able to move more quickly. And the positivity that tends to come from that and the confidence that comes from that initial project then stems into, okay, we'll do the next thing, the next launch. But maybe at the same time what we can also do is transition or retire some legacy content on an existing system or modernize it and bring it over.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So most organizations aren't just saying, oh well look, let's switch off the old system and move. Doesn't happen. We've got, it's like saying we're going to move from One ERP to another.
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Right.
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It's, you know, it's too big a deal.
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Right, right.
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So it gentle steps. Pick the projects that are most critical to, to drive your roi. New campaigns, new product launches, things of that nature. Move to a modern headless CMS and then over time then build a plan over perhaps maybe 18 months to then transition the legacy content onto the new system. It's a good opportunity. It's a bit like moving house, you know.
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Right.
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To retire maybe some older content.
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Yeah.
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And, or maybe even refresh and renew. A lot of organizations often find some of their highest performing content dates back to 2018 and maybe it's a time to revisit it.
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Yeah. You know, at some point. Right, right. Nice, nice. Well, hey, thanks so much for joining the show, Mark. One last question for you. I like to ask everybody, what do you do to stay agile in your role and how do you find a way to do it consistently?
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Oh, good question. Look, I, I, one of the things that I find, I, I'm, I'm a big proponent of technology in, in marketing and one of the things I think I've especially enjoyed through my career is spending a lot of time with people who are on the cutting edge of those technologies but doing so in a very pragmatic way. I always think about what are the, the bets that have long term potential? Because I think in martech there's a gazillion technologies arriving on a weekly basis and the problem is actually sifting through the ones that really can give your team potential over the years ahead, not the months. And also think about it carefully, marketing departments, I think we sometimes have a reputation now for buying a lot of tools, some of which end up sitting on the shelf. So I think it's one that is very important to place your bets very carefully.
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Yeah. Love it. Well, again, I'd like to thank Mark Wheeler, Chief marketing officer at Storyblock for joining the show. You can learn more about Mark and Storyblock by following the links in the show notes. Thanks again for listening to the Agile brand brought to you by Tech Systems. If you enjoyed the show, please take a minute to subscribe and leave us a rating so that others can find the show as well. You can access more episodes of the show@theagilebrand.com that's theagile brand.com and contact me if you're interested in consulting or advisory services or are looking for a speaker for your next event, go to www.greggkilstrom.com that's G R E G K I H L S t r o m.com the Agile brand is produced by Missing Link, a Latina owned, strategy driven, creatively fueled production co. Op. From ideation to creation, they craft human connections through intelligent, engaging and informative content. Until next time, stay curious and stay agile.
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