The Agile Brand with Greg Kihlström®: Expert Mode Marketing Technology, AI, & CX

Episode #744: Journey Management and Driving Business Results with Mark Smith and Raymond Gerber, Institute for Journey Management
Date: October 2, 2025
Host: Greg Kihlström
Guests: Mark Smith & Raymond Gerber (Institute for Journey Management)

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the newly launched Institute for Journey Management, exploring its mission to elevate journey management as a discipline, drive business results, and foster industry collaboration. Greg is joined by Mark Smith (formerly Kitewheel) and Raymond Gerber (formerly Thunderhead), who share their unique history as former competitors and now partners in championing customer-centric transformation. Together, they discuss the hurdles in journey management adoption, the evolving impact of AI, and the Institute’s plans to overcome industry silos and deliver practical value to organizations.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origin and Purpose of the Institute for Journey Management

[01:41–05:00]

• Background: Mark and Raymond, both with extensive leadership in the journey orchestration space (Kitewheel & Thunderhead), realized that despite their companies’ successes, the overall journey marketplace hasn’t reached its full potential.
  • "We set up this institute to help more companies understand what's possible from Journey Management." — Mark Smith [02:33]
• Aha Moment: Their mutual introduction by Joanna from Forrester crystallized shared frustration:
  • "We shared this kind of frustration about the fact that this Journey marketplace hadn't really taken off, despite the examples we'd seen of value." — Mark Smith [05:37]
• Mission Shift: Initial technical focus evolved to elevating and clarifying the “journey” concept:
  • "...change our manifesto to focus on elevating the concept of journeys." — Raymond Gerber [04:29]

2. Industry Collaboration—Breaking Down Silos

[08:30–09:54]

• Vendor Alignment: Early meetings convened CEOs from major journey technology firms to dream up new forms of collaboration:
  • "It's pretty rare to get head on competitors like that to start collaborating in a new way." — Mark Smith [09:06]
• Industry Problem: Historically, journey management vendors became siloed, fostering confusion and missed opportunities for true customer-centricity
  • "Vendors in the space created silos... while we do journeys, but not like the others." — Raymond Gerber [07:18]

3. Barriers to Effective Journey Management

[10:50–14:36]

• Complexity: Moving from touchpoint management to holistic journey management is a transformational, difficult task:
  • "When you try and get to the point where it is a customer managed journey versus a managed customer journey... you are saying for yourself, your own organization, I'm willing to give up control..." — Raymond Gerber [10:54]
• Siloed CX Teams: Many journey management solutions ended up isolated within underfunded CX teams rather than organization-wide
  • "We still have the issue... trying to sell it into a CX team where the CX team is underfunded. They don't have a corporate remit." — Raymond Gerber [12:37]
• Short-termism: Transformational journey initiatives require long-term commitment when executive priorities often focus on quarterly results:
  • "The real benefits from a transformation to become truly journey centric are a long term win... but it often gets left behind; smaller wins this quarter." — Mark Smith [14:02]

4. The Institute’s Approach & Methodology

[15:21–16:02]

• Tools for Success: The Institute will provide:
  • Methodologies and frameworks for incremental and long-term transformation
  • A peer community for sharing real-world experiences (both success & failures)
• Strategic Goal: Help organizations achieve long-term journey-led transformation via short-term wins.

5. Who Should Join the Institute?

[18:00–20:13]

• Primary Audience: Business leaders/P&L owners seeking actionable education and practical case studies
  • "Our primary initial audience is the business leader... who owns a P&L and has got all of these business goals on their shoulders." — Mark Smith [18:01]
• Community Model: Carefully-curated, invite-only initial membership to foster meaningful industry exchange
  • "...we want to make sure that we start building on a very, very solid base..." — Raymond Gerber [19:19]

6. The Role of AI in Journey Management

[20:17–23:24]

• Focus on Practical Impact: Institute’s education will prioritize actionable applications of AI, not just theory
  • "AI is only as good as the questions that you ask...we hope to educate...to know what questions to ask and how to interpret results." — Raymond Gerber [20:52]
• Agentic AI & Customer Experience: The rise of agentic AI will increase both the need for journey management and the sophistication of interactions
  • "You need a lot more management and context for that [AI-powered automation], which is exactly what a journey management system provides." — Mark Smith [22:20]
• Anticipating Interface Changes: Expect transition from managed interfaces to prompt-based, customer-managed interactions
  • "...the typical business users...will want the interface to be prompts...allow [vendors] to get more value...without spending too much time on worrying about the interfaces." — Raymond Gerber [24:01]

7. Looking to the Future: Trends and the Road Ahead

[25:01–26:51]

• 2026+ Vision: Expanding Institute membership, layering education for practitioners beneath business leaders, building a robust industry peer network
  • "...we're going to be on a big membership drive and looking for many thousands of people to be in this institute by the end of 2026." — Mark Smith [25:28]
• Technology Evolution: ML, RL, and Agentic AI will become embedded in journey platforms, layered with GenAI interfaces
  • "...machine learning models, reinforcement learning, required within agentic AI to become mainstream and embedded within all the journey platforms..." — Raymond Gerber [26:03]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I've never been a really good student, but I've been a really good researcher...I averaged about reading 1,500 pages a month..." — Raymond Gerber on lifelong learning & agility [27:23]
• "So many people in business have no time to think, to like really think about things. And so that's reading and thinking." — Mark Smith [28:12]
• "We hope that we can position the Institute as a mechanism for people to educate how to filter out and how to maximize the value of those [AI] solutions." — Raymond Gerber [21:38]
• "Who wants to develop a 5-year plan when what you earn is dependent upon this quarter, this year's numbers delivery?" — Mark Smith [14:18]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:41–04:29]: Guests introduce themselves and the origin of the Institute
• [05:37–07:18]: The “aha moment” and industry frustration leading to the Institute’s founding
• [08:30–09:54]: Meeting of major vendors, biggest insights from cross-industry collaboration
• [10:50–14:36]: Core challenges in journey management adoption, including silos, complexity, and short-term thinking
• [15:21–16:02]: Institute’s methodology: frameworks, community and long-term focus
• [18:01–20:13]: Target audience, membership strategy, and value to leaders/practitioners
• [20:46–24:43]: The place of AI in journey management—agentic AI, prompts, generative tools
• [25:01–26:51]: The Institute’s 2026 vision; anticipated technology and industry trends
• [27:15–28:12]: Quickfire closing: How the guests stay agile—lifelong learning and reflection

Summary

This episode showcases the visionaries behind the Institute for Journey Management as they tackle the industry’s key hurdles—organizational silos, lack of clarity and collaboration, underfunded CX priorities, and the challenge of adopting new AI-infused technologies. Mark Smith and Raymond Gerber argue that real transformation requires both a community and methodological rigor, led by business leaders prioritizing long-term value over quarterly wins. Their approach marries practical executive education, a peer-driven knowledge network, and an embrace of AI as both challenge and enabler. It’s a call to arms for leaders ready to break free from old silos and realize the true value of journey-centric organizations.

Learn more about the Institute for Journey Management: i4jm.org
To get in touch with the host: gregkihlstrom.com