← The Agile Brand with Greg Kihlström®: Expert Mode Marketing Technology, AI, & CX
The Agile Brand with Greg Kihlström®: Expert Mode Marketing Technology, AI, & CX
#852: Zoom Room CEO Mark Van Wye on agile dogs and agile brands
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- [00:01]
Greg Kilstrom
What if your most visible, most exciting product wasn't your real product at all, but was actually a Trojan horse for building a much deeper, engaging customer relationship? Agility requires more than just a willingness to change. It demands a deep understanding of what truly motivates your customer, allowing you to evolve your model in service of their emotional outcomes, not just their transactional needs. Today, we're going to talk about how a brand can embody the very principle it sells, turning a core service into a flywheel for customer retention, emotional engagement, and scalable business growth.
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Welcome to season eight of the Agile Brand Podcast. This season, we're going all in on Expert Mode, MarTech, AI and Customer Experience, talking with the people and platforms behind the brands you know and love. Again, I'm your host, Greg Kilstrom, and I help Fortune 1000 companies make sense of martech, AI and marketing ops. Hit, subscribe or follow to make sure you always get the latest episodes. And leave us a rating so others can find us as well. And make sure you check out our sponsor, TechSystems, an industry leader in full stack technology services, talent services and real world adoption. For more information, go to techsystems.com now let's dive in. To help me discuss this topic, I'd
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like to welcome Mark Van Wei, CEO at Zoom Room. Mark, welcome to the show.
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Mark Van Wei
Thanks so much, Greg. Yeah.
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Greg Kilstrom
Looking forward to talking about this topic with you. Before we dive in, though, why don't you give a little background on yourself and your role at Zoom Room?
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Mark Van Wei
Sure. It's been 18 years now with Zoom Room, and we are the premier indoor dog training company in America, author of the number one dog training book, last five years running, and I'm the CEO there. And agility is part and parcel to our business.
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Greg Kilstrom
Yeah. Love it.
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Mark Van Wei
Love it.
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Greg Kilstrom
Yeah. And definitely there's lots of kinds of agility. Right. So it's amen. Yeah. We'll be talking a little bit about canine agility, a little bit about customer and marketing agility, and all of the above. Right, Exactly.
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So, yeah.
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So let's start with kind of start at the top with the strategic view of things and really looking at what I referred to in the beginning, agility as a flywheel here. So you've described dog agility as a Trojan horse for your business. Can you unpack that? And how do you see a. How do you use a highly visible and exciting service to draw customers into a much deeper, more substantial relationship with the brand?
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Mark Van Wei
Agility is so Instagrammable, for lack of a better word. I mean, it is. It is the sizzle in marketing terms. And the relationship between the people and their dogs is really the stake. And I came at this really quite innocently. When I first learned about dog agility, it was, you know, the fastest growing dog sport still is. And I didn't quite see it as the sport, not because I was putting it down, but it was less about the athleticism of the dog. It was like a childhood game between the owner and the dog. People think that dogs run agility courses. They don't. It's the two together. So the. The person running the course says in English to the human, go there, then there, then there, then come back this way. Dog does not understand that dog knows how to jump through a tire, go weave through poles, and then running at full speed, the human has to be right there with the dog, communicating in real time, wordlessly to the dog where to go, how to go. All of that without breaking. You know, like if the coach was on the field with the players calling the plays while everyone's running and charging. And I was like, this is the most. This is what everyone wants from their dog, is real time communication in both directions, where without breaking the sweat, if you could do that in the real world, you would have the most perfect interspecies communication system. That's amazing. That's what agility is. It's obedience. It's everything. It's just the core part of this interspecies communication. It's not a dog sport. And so coming at it that way, that's where I thought other people could get hooked by the fun flash of it, but end up with dogs that were the greatest part of their lives.
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Greg Kilstrom
Yeah. Yeah. And I have to confess, I've seen a lot of. Me and my wife have watched many a dog agility competition on TV at the very least. So I know anyone who's not familiar with it, definitely recommend you watch it, just to kind of see what we're talking about here as well. So let's talk a little bit more about how this then connects to the customer experience. And so you've said that your system is designed to deliver positive emotional outcomes on every visit, even with a new trainer. So from that customer experience, design perspective, what processes or environmental factors have you engineered into that Zoom Room experience to make sure that that happens?
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Mark Van Wei
It starts with the four walls. So the centerpiece of the Zoom Room is the gym. And even if you're there for a puppy class, you just came in with the puppy, not to do agility. You. You're there for puppy training. You can't not see all the agility stuff everywhere and you're not seeing the stuff that you and your wife saw on espn. You're not seeing these incredible, you know, shepherds and you're seeing little teacup chihuahuas jumping over the things in the photos. You're seeing big bulldogs and you're going, wait, any dog can do agility. Maybe not at the national trials, but at Zoom Room you can. And you're seeing the equipment and you're starting to develop this aspirational sense of like, that seems, seems really cool. And it's no secret, when you came in, probably you're coming in just as an agility class is leaving and you're seeing some of that happening and so you're already getting that curiosity. And even in the puppy classes, we'll start to bring the things down very low so that it's safer growing joints and muscles to just start to test out a little bit what that feels like. And then we give you the chance to feel the pride of teaching your dog how to jump through a hoop or, you know, because our motto is we don't train dogs, we train the people who love them. And so you're going to come or you and your wife are going to come with your dog at first, maybe once, twice a week. And this thing that you thought would be obligatory at first then becomes a habit and it becomes something that is your favorite part of the week. And you've developed this community of people and that emotional pride you feel in what you accomplished with your dog and, and in this company of like minded people is just absolutely electric and so positive. And you maybe haven't even done the agility yet. But it was those images that you saw online that maybe brought you in and got you curious at the first part.
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Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, so it's, I mean, so there's a couple of things going on there. I mean, one is, you know, you're building, you're building a community of dogs that participate in this, of course, but you're building a community of people, right, that are, that are all maybe at different levels of, or their dogs are at different levels in agility or whatever. But it's, you know, it. So it's got that aspirational component that you mentioned, but it's also got that kind of that regular, I mean, that regular community aspect, right, that, that, that then, you know, the, the brand benefits, I mean, everybody benefits from it, but the brand benefits from it as well, right?
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Mark Van Wei
Completely. I mean, community centric is a core part of our values because it's just there's not a lot of places where you can come together and be with other people and their dogs in a completely safe way that is monitored, as opposed to unmonitored, like at a dog park. And we're always having different fundraisers and activities and events that would appeal, that people can bring their dogs to. And people every day somewhere in the country are making a new friend because kind of like a Mommy and Me class, they're going through a puppy or a class specifically for newly rescued dogs together, where someone else is asking the question that they were too embarrassed to ask themselves, and they look over and they're like, thank you for asking that. I was embarrassed, but that's what I want to know, too. And. And the classes are so fun. So it's. It's just nice to have a place where people can actually go today. And political lines don't matter. Nothing else matters. Everyone loves their dog, and it's. It's. It's just incredibly warm.
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Greg Kilstrom
Yeah.
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Mark Van Wei
Yeah.
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Greg Kilstrom
Well, and I. And I do think. I mean, you mentioned, like, dog parks and stuff, and, you know, there's. There's nice parts about those as well. But I think the. The structure here and kind of maybe the. The guardrails, so to speak, for lack of a better term, makes it. Makes it safe, makes it welcoming. And. And. And for those that, you know, if I were bringing in my dog for the very first time, had no idea what me or my dog would have, no idea what we were doing. There's a. It's okay, right, that some people are more expert and some not. Right.
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Mark Van Wei
And the fact that you're there tells me so much about you, because you could have dropped your dog off somewhere, right? But you're there to actually get sweaty and run around and do it, because we're not touching your dog. Your dog is on leash with you. We're gonna say, greg, so what I want you to do now with your dog is blah, blah, blah, and you're gonna do all the work. We're just giving you the skills that's going to translate when you get home. And that really, really changes the dynamic. So the kinds of people that are coming are the people who clearly want their dogs integrated. You're someone who I would know, if you come to class, you want to take your dog to work, you want to take your dog shopping, you want to take your dog on trips, you want to go hiking with your dog. And that is what we're about. We're a crucible. We're a gym, a place where you come in and you're going to learn these real world skills to have a socialized dog, a dog that you can take for a walk, you can take on errands and it's just going to be chill. It's not about a dog who plays the piano or, you know, not that we couldn't do that, but our focus is on giving you the dog that when your friends invite you to go to the pub and have a beer with them and you know they and their cool friends and their cool dog are going, you don't feel anxiety. But what if my dog barks or pees or whatever? You're going to learn that type of socialization at Zoom Room around all these other people and dogs and you'll feel very comfortable. And that's who's attracted to us and what we really specialize in.
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Greg Kilstrom
So how do you then measure success? I mean, you know, you've talked about a few things as far as, you know, it's kind of a, it's definitely an engaging and a stick picky, you know, experience so to speak of, you know, people want to, want to grow, want to, want to keep them and their dogs learning and stuff like that. But you know what, how do you measure success with customers and things like that?
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Mark Van Wei
We use a lot of KPIs and a lot of centralized dashboards. You know, we are a franchise. So We've got almost 60 locations around the country and growing. And so for us, it's a question of the stickiness. You know, we're not looking for that first day package that you buy. This isn't like give us thousands of dollars. We're looking for something where this is going to be a repeat business. Something that's an ongoing. I often use the metaphor of thinking of how weird it would sound if I said, hey, next week I'm graduating yoga. You know, this is something that should have no milestone. You don't graduate a zoom room class. It's something you keep steeping and steeping yourself in. And there's no end of things that we can do together. So I care about lifetime value. I care about referrals. I mean, when I look at our cac, the cost to acquire a customer that is kept very low for us and that is through to some degree, skill on the advertising side. But a lot of it is deflated by the number of client referrals we get. So that word of mouth is so valuable to us, obviously as a growing company, but valuable to us financially as well, because the ratio of that lifetime value to the CAC is through the roof. We care about the cash flow of our franchisees. So we don't just measure lifetime value. We look at like short term returns, like how quickly, like within eight week cycle you are able to recoup any of the investments that you've put in so far. And those are just some of the key ones. At the end of the day, what I as a franchisor care about is scalability. So if you did something at your store and it was so incredible and it was working for you, but it wasn't something I felt would translate to everybody. That doesn't hit my success. Peter. It has to be something that will work everywhere for anyone. If you and your wife go off traveling somewhere and someone else is in the store working, it's going to be just fine without you. This is not a business that depends on a celebrity at the center or any expertise. It is a thing that is about. It's something that's completely democratizing. And for that to work, everything has to scale. Everything has to work, no matter. It can't be dependent on any one person that helps us keep our payroll down. So that's another important metric. So by keeping just the headcount very low within each store. And that helps with profitability as well.
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Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, as a franchise model, then, you know, that does add a layer of. There's, there's good and there's, there's more complex complexity there as well. So when did you, when did you decide to, to turn it into a franchise model?
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Mark Van Wei
Day negative one. So it was designed from the beginning. Yeah, this was not. I, this would not be interesting to me as like a thing to do in town.
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Greg Kilstrom
Yeah.
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Mark Van Wei
My background had been in creating large scale curricula that would be pushed nationally, designing programs that would be taught in, you know, to millions of people at the same time. And to me, being able to do that with, with dogs and people, that's what's exciting to me. The idea that this can, can be placed anywhere in any reasonably sized metro area. That's what's really exciting. So that was from the, from day one. That was the plan. It had to be a headless system that had a solid technology stack and something that could be put in place by someone with no prior skill. You couldn't have a cost of labor that would drag this thing down. It had to be something where as long as you have people that are energetic and passionate about other people and animals, the business will hunt.
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Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, yeah, well, and, and so to talk about the technology a little bit too. So, you know, in, in prepping for this, your, your notes mentioned you proactively not only restructured pricing, but rebuild some of the tech. Not because of market pressure necessarily, but by just asking better questions. Can you, you know, unpack that a little bit? You know, what, what does that mean from, you know, asking better questions? And, and you know, how, how does this lead to something like that?
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Mark Van Wei
I mean, obviously the day we're talking today, that's the front page in every financial paper and business paper is what's happening in the software sector. And I don't want to date our conversation too much, but the day we're talking right now is the day that a lot is happening with software companies. And historically, SaaS companies and any software company have designed software in a way that works for their own scalability from their perspective as software vendors. And, and we as merchants have to take a second seat to their needs as a software vendor. And I think we have, I won't even say we are entering, I'd say we have entered a new era in which software itself can be something that serves the exact needs of your specific taco truck. Right. So like, if you, this can be, do everything you need, but if I were designing software, I'd want to make something that works for your taco truck and your yoga studio and your, you know, barber shop that those days are over and it can now be. Everything can be bespoke. And once you move into that bespoke area, you can ask the questions of, what do our franchise need? What do our franchisees actually need? What do our customers need? What do we, as stewards of this entire ship? What do we need? What are the actual. Because you could clutter a dashboard with a million things, but where's the signal? Where's the noise? What actually moves the needle? How could you build something that answers the vital questions that we really care about every day? And once you ask those questions now, you can build that, and you have a vastly better and more efficient system.
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Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, yeah. So then, as Zoom Room continues to scale, I mean, it sounds like you started this with the intention to scale with the intention to franchise. And so a lot of companies, whether they fall into it or they, you know, they didn't kind of do it by design, it. It does make this, I guess, this question a little. A little different. But what. What. What are you concerned about as far as, like, maintaining brand. Maintaining business agility as you continue to scale? Because, you know, there. I would imagine there are different challenges at different. Even franchise, you know, numbers of franchises and stuff as well. So, you know, what. What kind of. Whether it's systems, cultural elements, you know, all those. What's top of mind for you right now?
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Mark Van Wei
I think that most things I'm just incredibly excited about, you know, like, dogs. Not a fad, famously.
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Greg Kilstrom
Right, Right.
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Mark Van Wei
Dogs. Getting to be part of your everyday life. Like, not again. Like, this is not a pandemic puppy bubble of, like, you know, the flavor of the month. This is not going anywhere. So the evergreen nature of what we do for people is really exciting to me. For Zoom Rooms to be fun, like, that's easy and appealing, that's easy. The part that I'm always challenging myself for is to simplify is to make it easy. Like, if you were to call one of our franchisees right now and they said, I love what I do, that's great. I love my customers, I love my staff, all of that would be music to my ears. But the thing I don't know that you would hear, and I want to hear evermore, is it's so easy. Like, it's really not that hard to do. I get there in the morning, it's always going to be work. Right. It's a business, and it's because of the franchise model. They're not our employees. It's their business. They need to work in it, and there's work to be done. But I want the systems to be so thoughtful that it is just not so complicated, it's not so effortful. And to me, to keep stripping away at those complex. Because the moment it's not you doing it, you start to push out from that hub. You get in these layers of, like, the old telephone game. You know, I'll tell someone and then they'll have operational support people. And by the time it gets to the franchisee, there's been a little bastardization. And then you start to see differences. And you want the crullers at the Dunkin Donuts in Boston to be like the crullers, you know, in West Hollywood. And how do you get that consistency and that uniformity? And the answer is ever greater systems of communication and without needing some sort of, like, jackbooted enforcement of going in, you know, on, like, with the white glove and, you know, checking the crawlers every day. So that's always a challenge. Is. Is carrots and sticks and that sort of like maintaining that consistency. But I want to just keep designing systems that get, you know, if there's a way to take something that takes six hours down to one minute. Fantastic.
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Greg Kilstrom
Yeah, yeah.
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Mark Van Wei
Love it.
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Greg Kilstrom
Well, Mark, it's been great talking with you today. Really, really lots, lots of insights here. Got two last questions for you before we. Before we wrap up. First one, if we were having this interview one year from today, what is one thing that we would definitely be talking about?
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Mark Van Wei
I would love if it were about that you had just run into one of our franchisees and they said that exact same thing. They said, it's gotten so easy. I come in, in the morning, and so much of the work that I used to have to do is kind of done for me. And it's just I get to focus my attention on being present for my customers because only me and my staff can do that and all the other stuff that goes with running a business, it's like it's running itself. That would be my dream.
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Greg Kilstrom
Love it.
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Mark Van Wei
Love it.
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Greg Kilstrom
Well, last question for you. What do you do to stay agile in your role, and how do you find a way to do it consistently?
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Mark Van Wei
It's a great question. I guess. I don't even think about it. The nature of what I do is I'm writing a book one day and writing code another day, and then I'm like, out in the field talking to people, or I'm like an introvert. Hold up. Yesterday I was lying on the ground covered with flowers, 37 Norwich Terrier puppies crawling all over me. It's like different things all the time and if I have a free moment I'm like designing a new board game. So it's just my brain doesn't know how not to do that. And I just. Yeah, it's not a practice to stay sharp and focused and ready to move. I just got born wired that way.
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Greg Kilstrom
Just a way of being. Yeah, yeah. Love it. Love it. Well again I'd like to thank Mark Van Wy, CEO at Zoom Room for joining the show. You can learn more about Mark and Zoom Room by following the links in the show notes.
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This episode is brought to you by Tech Systems. They're leaders in full stack tech services, talent solutions and helping companies put it all in action. You can learn more@techsystems.com that's teksystems.com and thanks again for listening to the Agile Brand podcast. If you like the episode hit subscribe
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and drop a rating so others can
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find the show too. And if you're interested in consulting, advisory work, or if you need a speaker for your next event, feel free to reach out. Just visit GregKillstrom.com that's G R E G K I H L S t r o m.com the Agile brand is produced by Missing Link, a Latina owned, strategy driven, creatively fueled production co op. From ideation to creation, they craft human connections through intelligent, engaging and informative content. Until next time, stay curious and stay agile.
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Mark Van Wei
The Agile Brand.