Podcast Title: The Al Franken Podcast
Episode Title: BEST OF: Anne Applebaum on her book Autocracy, Inc.
Release Date: December 1, 2024
Host: Al Franken
Guest: Peter Ogburn discussing Anne Applebaum's Autocracy, Inc.

Introduction

In this compelling "Best Of" episode, Al Franken engages in an in-depth conversation with Peter Ogburn about Anne Applebaum's insightful book, Autocracy, Inc. Released a few months prior to the podcast, the discussion delves into the intricate networks of autocratic states and their strategies to amass wealth and power. The conversation also reflects on the political climate in the United States, particularly in light of recent elections and appointments.

Overview of Autocracy, Inc.

Peter Ogburn opens the dialogue by summarizing the essence of Applebaum's book, highlighting the collaborative efforts of diverse autocratic regimes:

Peter Ogburn [07:12]: "What I describe in the book is a network, not an alliance, not an axis, but a network of autocratic states who share very little. They don't have the same ideology. They have different economic plans and so on. Theocracy, nationalism, communism, all very different. But who nevertheless cooperate."

He emphasizes that countries like Iran, Russia, China, North Korea, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, and Belarus, despite their differing political and economic systems, work together to further their malign interests globally.

The Network of Autocratic States

Ogburn elaborates on the mechanics of this network, explaining how these nations engage in:

• Money Laundering: Facilitating illicit financial flows to bolster their economies and fund oppressive regimes.

• Manipulation of Financial Markets: Influencing global markets to destabilize economies that oppose their interests.

• Propaganda Coordination: Spreading coordinated misinformation to undermine democratic ideals and promote authoritarian narratives.

He underscores the fluidity of these alliances, noting that cooperation occurs when it serves their mutual interests, even if temporarily.

Implications for U.S. Politics

The conversation shifts to the recent U.S. political landscape, particularly the implications of Donald Trump's actions and potential presidency on international relations and domestic policies:

Peter Ogburn [14:29]: "It's not just Ukraine that they're bad on. I mean, if you think what Trump is, what's Trump most famous for now in the rest of the world? And is the attack on the Capitol on January 6th."

Ogburn expresses concern over Trump's perceived affinity for autocratic leaders like Vladimir Putin and his administration's historical attempts to foster closer ties with Russia. The appointment of figures associated with Project 2025, a conservative blueprint aiming to expand executive power, further exacerbates these worries.

Case Studies: Hungary and Venezuela

Hungary's Illiberal Democracy

Ogburn differentiates between illiberal democracies and outright autocracies using Hungary as a primary example:

Peter Ogburn [10:59]: "An illiberal democracy is one where there are some elements of democracy... the courts are captured, the bureaucracy is captured. There's a one party that basically runs all of the institutions."

Under Prime Minister Viktor Orbán, Hungary exhibits democratic frameworks in name but operates under stringent controls that stifle genuine opposition and maintain the ruling party's grip on power.

Venezuela's Descent into Authoritarianism

The discussion moves to Venezuela, tracing its transition from a once-thriving democracy to a nation plagued by economic despair and political repression:

Peter Ogburn [27:09]: "Venezuela is producing more refugees than Ukraine because Venezuela is so poor and there are so few opportunities there that people flee the country."

Ogburn critiques Hugo Chávez's and Nicolás Maduro's regimes for dismantling democratic institutions, leading to widespread poverty and mass emigration. The international support from other autocratic nations sustains these oppressive governments despite their unpopularity.

Propaganda and Misinformation

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the rampant propaganda propagated by autocratic states:

Peter Ogburn [21:35]: "Something like 30% of Americans believed that this story was true because they'd seen it repeated in so many different places..."

Using the example of false claims about biological weapons laboratories in Ukraine, Ogburn illustrates how coordinated misinformation campaigns can deceive large swaths of the population, undermining trust in democratic institutions and fostering divisive narratives.

Solutions and Responses to Autocratic Networks

Ogburn proposes several strategies to counteract the influence of autocratic regimes:

1. Domestic Reforms:

   • Combat money laundering by tightening regulations on anonymous companies and trusts.
   • Regulate social media to prevent the unchecked spread of propaganda.

2. Enhanced Foreign Broadcasting:

   • Invest in programs like Radio Free Europe and Voice of America to promote truthful narratives abroad.

3. Algorithm Regulation:

   • Implement stricter controls on the algorithms that determine information dissemination on digital platforms.

4. Military Modernization:

   • Strengthen and modernize defense capabilities to deter autocratic aggressions.

Peter Ogburn [35:00]: "One of the things I'm afraid of is that in the fall we will make the wrong decision. And if we do, we risk being part of the problem rather than a solution to it."

He emphasizes the critical need for leadership committed to defending democratic values and resisting the alluring narratives of authoritarianism.

Conclusion

Al Franken and Peter Ogburn conclude on a somber yet hopeful note, acknowledging the grim realities of the current political climate while advocating for resilience and proactive measures to uphold democracy. Ogburn shares a poignant anecdote reflecting the importance of humor and optimism in dark times:

Peter Ogburn [36:10]: "I'll tell you a story that I recently heard about the Late Senator John McCain... it's always darkest before it turns pitch black."

The episode serves as a clarion call for vigilance, urging listeners to recognize and counter the subtle erosions of democracy both domestically and globally.

Notable Quotes:

• Peter Ogburn [07:12]: "What I describe in the book is a network, not an alliance, not an axis, but a network of autocratic states who share very little."

• Peter Ogburn [14:29]: "It's not just Ukraine that they're bad on... And is the attack on the Capitol on January 6th."

• Peter Ogburn [21:35]: "Something like 30% of Americans believed that this story was true because they'd seen it repeated in so many different places..."

• Peter Ogburn [35:00]: "One of the things I'm afraid of is that in the fall we will make the wrong decision."

This episode of The Al Franken Podcast provides listeners with a thorough analysis of Anne Applebaum's Autocracy, Inc., highlighting the pervasive threats posed by interconnected autocratic regimes and the urgent need for democratic resilience.