BEST OF: Anne Applebaum on her book Autocracy, Inc.

Summary

Podcast Title: The Al Franken Podcast
Episode Title: BEST OF: Anne Applebaum on her book Autocracy, Inc.
Release Date: December 1, 2024
Host: Al Franken
Guest: Peter Ogburn discussing Anne Applebaum's Autocracy, Inc.

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Introduction

In this compelling "Best Of" episode, Al Franken engages in an in-depth conversation with Peter Ogburn about Anne Applebaum's insightful book, Autocracy, Inc. Released a few months prior to the podcast, the discussion delves into the intricate networks of autocratic states and their strategies to amass wealth and power. The conversation also reflects on the political climate in the United States, particularly in light of recent elections and appointments.

Overview of Autocracy, Inc.

Peter Ogburn opens the dialogue by summarizing the essence of Applebaum's book, highlighting the collaborative efforts of diverse autocratic regimes:

Peter Ogburn [07:12]: "What I describe in the book is a network, not an alliance, not an axis, but a network of autocratic states who share very little. They don't have the same ideology. They have different economic plans and so on. Theocracy, nationalism, communism, all very different. But who nevertheless cooperate."

He emphasizes that countries like Iran, Russia, China, North Korea, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, and Belarus, despite their differing political and economic systems, work together to further their malign interests globally.

The Network of Autocratic States

Ogburn elaborates on the mechanics of this network, explaining how these nations engage in:

• Money Laundering: Facilitating illicit financial flows to bolster their economies and fund oppressive regimes.

• Manipulation of Financial Markets: Influencing global markets to destabilize economies that oppose their interests.

• Propaganda Coordination: Spreading coordinated misinformation to undermine democratic ideals and promote authoritarian narratives.

He underscores the fluidity of these alliances, noting that cooperation occurs when it serves their mutual interests, even if temporarily.

Implications for U.S. Politics

The conversation shifts to the recent U.S. political landscape, particularly the implications of Donald Trump's actions and potential presidency on international relations and domestic policies:

Peter Ogburn [14:29]: "It's not just Ukraine that they're bad on. I mean, if you think what Trump is, what's Trump most famous for now in the rest of the world? And is the attack on the Capitol on January 6th."

Ogburn expresses concern over Trump's perceived affinity for autocratic leaders like Vladimir Putin and his administration's historical attempts to foster closer ties with Russia. The appointment of figures associated with Project 2025, a conservative blueprint aiming to expand executive power, further exacerbates these worries.

Case Studies: Hungary and Venezuela

Hungary's Illiberal Democracy

Ogburn differentiates between illiberal democracies and outright autocracies using Hungary as a primary example:

Peter Ogburn [10:59]: "An illiberal democracy is one where there are some elements of democracy... the courts are captured, the bureaucracy is captured. There's a one party that basically runs all of the institutions."

Under Prime Minister Viktor Orbán, Hungary exhibits democratic frameworks in name but operates under stringent controls that stifle genuine opposition and maintain the ruling party's grip on power.

Venezuela's Descent into Authoritarianism

The discussion moves to Venezuela, tracing its transition from a once-thriving democracy to a nation plagued by economic despair and political repression:

Peter Ogburn [27:09]: "Venezuela is producing more refugees than Ukraine because Venezuela is so poor and there are so few opportunities there that people flee the country."

Ogburn critiques Hugo Chávez's and Nicolás Maduro's regimes for dismantling democratic institutions, leading to widespread poverty and mass emigration. The international support from other autocratic nations sustains these oppressive governments despite their unpopularity.

Propaganda and Misinformation

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the rampant propaganda propagated by autocratic states:

Peter Ogburn [21:35]: "Something like 30% of Americans believed that this story was true because they'd seen it repeated in so many different places..."

Using the example of false claims about biological weapons laboratories in Ukraine, Ogburn illustrates how coordinated misinformation campaigns can deceive large swaths of the population, undermining trust in democratic institutions and fostering divisive narratives.

Solutions and Responses to Autocratic Networks

Ogburn proposes several strategies to counteract the influence of autocratic regimes:

1. Domestic Reforms:

   • Combat money laundering by tightening regulations on anonymous companies and trusts.
   • Regulate social media to prevent the unchecked spread of propaganda.

2. Enhanced Foreign Broadcasting:

   • Invest in programs like Radio Free Europe and Voice of America to promote truthful narratives abroad.

3. Algorithm Regulation:

   • Implement stricter controls on the algorithms that determine information dissemination on digital platforms.

4. Military Modernization:

   • Strengthen and modernize defense capabilities to deter autocratic aggressions.

Peter Ogburn [35:00]: "One of the things I'm afraid of is that in the fall we will make the wrong decision. And if we do, we risk being part of the problem rather than a solution to it."

He emphasizes the critical need for leadership committed to defending democratic values and resisting the alluring narratives of authoritarianism.

Conclusion

Al Franken and Peter Ogburn conclude on a somber yet hopeful note, acknowledging the grim realities of the current political climate while advocating for resilience and proactive measures to uphold democracy. Ogburn shares a poignant anecdote reflecting the importance of humor and optimism in dark times:

Peter Ogburn [36:10]: "I'll tell you a story that I recently heard about the Late Senator John McCain... it's always darkest before it turns pitch black."

The episode serves as a clarion call for vigilance, urging listeners to recognize and counter the subtle erosions of democracy both domestically and globally.

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Notable Quotes:

• Peter Ogburn [07:12]: "What I describe in the book is a network, not an alliance, not an axis, but a network of autocratic states who share very little."

• Peter Ogburn [14:29]: "It's not just Ukraine that they're bad on... And is the attack on the Capitol on January 6th."

• Peter Ogburn [21:35]: "Something like 30% of Americans believed that this story was true because they'd seen it repeated in so many different places..."

• Peter Ogburn [35:00]: "One of the things I'm afraid of is that in the fall we will make the wrong decision."

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This episode of The Al Franken Podcast provides listeners with a thorough analysis of Anne Applebaum's Autocracy, Inc., highlighting the pervasive threats posed by interconnected autocratic regimes and the urgent need for democratic resilience.

Transcript

[Al Franken]

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[Ann Applebaum]

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[Al Franken]

Hey everybody, we got a great one today. You know, for a change. In fact, it's a best of so that Peter and I could take a little break during Thanksgiving so you can sit back and relax, knowing that you're not going to have to sit through one of our stinkers. And to be frank, this is one of the best of the best of because it's Ann Applebaum on her scary book Autocracy Inc. About the autocratic countries in the world. These are autocracies that often have little in common, but which often work together to build their wealth and power. We aired this originally a few months ago and Ann was, I will say, sounding not a little nervous about how our election was going to go and the prospect of what a Trump presidency would do to the balance of power in Ukraine. Trump, of course, says he can end that war in one day, clearly eager to sell a democratic country out so his buddy Putin can retain the territory Russia's captured since the war began, not to mention the Crimea, which he took back in 2014. Anne's book Autocracy Inc. Is about how a network of autocratic states that share very little have different systems, including countries like Iran and Russia, North Korea and Zimbabwe, China and Belarus, but which all have malign intentions, engage in money laundering, manipulation of financial markets, and send political enemies to prison and worse. And Ann indicated in this episode, which again we recorded a few months back, her concerns about our election. And we now know how that turned out. And there's certainly no solace from the nominations. Trump's been making several Project 2025 drafters gaining key positions in the government all the easier to fulfill Trump's horrific agenda. Now President Elect Trump always contended that he knew Nothing about Project 2025, but several of his Cabinet picks certainly do. Trump has plucked a number straight from the 900 plus pages of the Heritage foundation backed blueprint, which laid out plans to dramatically expand executive power and implement hardline conservative policies. Most recently, Trump nominated Russ Voigt, an architect of Project 2025, to return as director of the Office of Management and Budget, a very powerful position. Voight is one of the roughly 140 members of the first Trump administration who were involved in Project 2025. He's at least the fifth Project 2025 contributor that Trump has picked for a top job. Voight authored the Project 2025 chapter on the department he's been tapped to lead. Other picks like Steve Miller are associated with Project 2025, and Miller will presumably once again have a lot to say about making cruelty the point and how they expelled 10 million migrants and their legal children out of the country. So we've got a revisit to a great one today with a little bit more perspective on how this all may play out in the next months and years. It's Ann Applebaum with a great, if somewhat disturbing one. You know, for a change.

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[Al Franken]

Congratulations on the new book Autocracy Inc. The Dictators who Want to Run the World. I learned a lot reading this thing and it helped shape my understanding of the world and I think it will of anyone who reads this. You won a Pulitzer for a book ways ago, right?

[Peter Ogburn]

I did, but that was for a long, serious history book. And this is a very short essay that I think you can read in a couple of hours. So it's unlikely to win any Pulitzers.

[Al Franken]

It took me a little longer than a couple hours.

[Peter Ogburn]

Sorry to hear that.

[Al Franken]

No, no. Well, I'm a slow reader, but I also savored it. How's that?

[Peter Ogburn]

Well, that's good. That's good to hear.

[Al Franken]

Trump just hosted Viktor Orban a couple weeks ago, prime minister of Hungary at Mar? A Lago, and for, I think, for the second time in, I don't know, about six months or something. And Trump chose J.D. vance as his vice presidential nominee. And Vance is one of the first senators to come out against funding the war in, in Ukraine. What, what's at stake in this election in terms of how America works with the rest of the world?

[Peter Ogburn]

So what I describe in the book is a network, not an alliance, not an axis, but a network of autocratic states who share very little. They don't have the same ideology. They have different economic plans and so on. Theocracy, nationalism, communism, all very different. But who nevertheless cooperate. Iran, Russia, China, North Korea, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Belarus and others.

[Al Franken]

How many autocratic countries are there?

[Peter Ogburn]

Well told, it sort of depends how you count, but you can get up to about three dozen, depending on what you count as autocratic. And there are a lot of midway states that have mixed regimes. So my book really focuses on a small group who have really malign intentions who are interested in undermining us, meaning you and me and probably everyone listening to this program and the ways in which they do it are through money laundering, manipulation of financial markets. They seek to stay in power, you know, in order to accumulate money. They also use kind of coordinated propaganda to undermine the ideas and ideals of democracy and to promote an alternative idea about theocracy or autocracy being stable and safe. And they work together when it's convenient, which is not always. And really the only source of opposition to them would be a similar network in the democratic world. And right now, the only candidate for leader of that network is the United States of America. And if it's led by people who don't want to do that, then we're already going to be living in a very different world.

[Al Franken]

Well, hence the stakes of this election. The book isn't about domestic politics, but the election will have huge consequences about our foreign policy and our role in the world. And in terms of These autocracies, you know, especially in terms of Russia. We know that Trump is no fan of Ukraine's and either is J.D. vance.

[Peter Ogburn]

No, on the contrary, it's been, I mean, it's been clear for a decade or more that Trump has been interested in having a special relationship with Putin. He was thwarted in his aims during his first presidential term. If he wins a second presidential term, that's going to be a lot less likely. It's also notable that some of the people pushing hardest for Vance include David Sachs and Elon Musk, who also, for reasons I can only speculate, I don't want to be conspiratorial on your podcast. I can only speculate why are they so interested in having good relations with Russia. Why did Musk suddenly announce a huge donation to the Trump campaign after the Vance election? I don't know.

[Al Franken]

Vance is one of the first vote against aid Ukraine.

[Peter Ogburn]

Vance did even a little bit more than voting against it. He's also said openly he doesn't care about it. He doesn't care who wins. He doesn't see it as an important contest. The idea that a Russian victory in Ukraine would threaten Germany and Poland and the Baltic states and maybe others doesn't bother him really. He's in favor of the United States exiting the world. I'm not even really sure if he has any interest in the United States competing with China, but he's not particularly hawkish there either. His idea is that we should leave everything and come home. And if Europe is conquered by Russia or Taiwan is conquered by China, who cares? And that seems to be his attitude.

[Al Franken]

Well, back to the book, I guess. Autoxy Inc. I was talking about Orban, and he heads up what you call an illiberal democracy. What is the difference between that and an autocracy?

[Peter Ogburn]

Well, so an illiberal democracy is one where there are some elements of democracy. So there's a. I mean, it's not even. You can't really call it a free press. There are a couple of websites in Hungary that publish things critical of the government. There aren't any really, TV stations or newspapers. The courts are captured, the bureaucracy is captured. There's a one. One party just, you know, basically runs all of the institutions in the. The constitution is constantly rejiggered and updated and changed in order to suit the ruling party. And as a result, the ruling party always wins the elections. There may be a bit of electoral cheating in there as well. So there's kind of an appearance of competition and there's sometimes competitive leaders.

[Al Franken]

What Are some other illiberal democracies like Turkey and India.

[Peter Ogburn]

Turkey is one, India is increasingly one. India is very big and complicated. But it's also increasingly looks like that as well. I mean, there are a lot of countries where democracy has declined in this matter. It became illiberal until it became autocratic. I mean, that's what happened in Venezuela. Venezuela was a democracy and it was undermined by Hugo Chavez again through this process of capturing the state, taking over the institutions.

[Al Franken]

Didn't he run to recapture democracy there or something? That was his platform.

[Peter Ogburn]

Well, he would try. First he tried a coup d'etat and that failed. And then he was in jail for a bit and then he ran for president of Venezuela and then he won. And then he proceeded to dismantle the system. And usually these things start with pressure on judges, pressure on the media, pressure on independent institutions. Basically anybody who can criticize the leader or check the leader's power, or anybody who calls for transparency so that we know what the leader is actually doing or how he's spending his money or earning his money. And usually it starts with that and then it goes further, unless it stopped.

[Al Franken]

You wrote a book, Twilight of Democracy, the Seductive Lure of Authoritarianism. When did you write that?

[Peter Ogburn]

That was published in 2020. And that was about the threat of that kind of liberal democracy in the United States, in Poland, where I lived part of the time. And actually it was a bit about Hungary too. So it was about how that process unravels. This new book is a little bit different. It's about the states that are already dictatorships and how they are interested in undermining us, as I said.

[Al Franken]

Have things gotten worse in the world since you wrote that?

[Peter Ogburn]

Well, things got a bit better in Poland because the Polish opposition galvanized itself, reorganized itself, inspired young people to vote and won an election, even though it was a very unfair election that was slanted toward the then ruling party. So they stopped that sort of slide towards dictatorship, towards the one party state. Really, that's one positive story. You know, you can look at some other unexpectedly positive election results in the UK or France. I mean, those weren't, aren't countries that were in this kind of trouble. Unfortunately, the country that's doing the worst, where the institutions seem to be faltering the most dramatically is the United States. And so the country that is traditionally perceived as the leader of the democratic world and has actually been a model for a lot of the rest of the world. You know, people look up to the United States as almost the country that defines Modern democracy.

[Al Franken]

Well, how so have we been falling back? Other than that, we right now have Trump and Vance as this ticket, both of whom are very bad on. On Ukraine.

[Peter Ogburn]

It's not just Ukraine that they're bad on. I mean, if you think what Trump is, what's Trump most famous for now in the rest of the world? And is the attack on the Capitol on January 6th. So the, the specter of a former president seeking to undermine the results of an election and trying to use viol. Violence in order to do that and change the law and break the law, which, by the way, Vance has said it was okay to do that.

[Al Franken]

If he had been vice president, he would have put the ballots through the other ballots.

[Peter Ogburn]

Yeah, he would have blocked the election. So, you know that. And that's. By the way, if they were to be elected, we would have to. If and if Trump were to serve out four years, we would certainly have to worry about Vance in 2028. You know, would he certify a free election then? So, you know, we already had the specter of somebody who actually assaulted, I mean, literally, the citadel of democracy, the US Capitol, as the presidential candidate, once again, of one of our largest parties. And that by itself is, believe me, confusing for the outside world. And, you know, it's accompanied by this Trump, and not just Trump, but the right more broadly and even from other parts of the culture, this kind of assault on the media, the undermining of the media, the specter of very partisan judges.

[Al Franken]

We just saw the judge informed, yeah, throw out that case. Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Peter Ogburn]

Yeah, I mean, it was. She. It was a very interesting timing. So she made this. You know, it appears to be, as far as I can tell from legal scholars, a very strange decision to throw out a case on the grounds that the person prosecuting it wasn't legitimate.

[Al Franken]

And what was that based on? Do you have any idea?

[Peter Ogburn]

Maybe it's something to do with something Clarence Thomas said during a previous case. Maybe it was just her desire to do Trump a favor at a key moment. I mean, it was sort of in between the assassination and the Republican Convention.

[Al Franken]

That doesn't sound like a judge.

[Peter Ogburn]

No, it doesn't. It's interesting. Is for something else I'm writing, I was working on this question of what is judicial independence and how do we ensure it? And of course, all the bits and pieces and constitutional elements that are meant to ensure it all still kind of assume that judges want to be independent. Right. That they don't want to be beholden to a politician. Or a party. And they don't take account of the possibility that there would be judges who seek deliberately to be partisan and to do political favors for particular people. I mean, that's kind of, that's just not, that wasn't in the brains of the founding fathers when they wrote up their documents. But it's one of a lot of very small, gradual, and some less small and less gradual signs of democratic decline. And we don't always see them because we're caught up in day to day politics or maybe we don't pay attention to politics at all. But to the outside world, they look pretty alarming. And to people who saw the United States with having a leadership role, speaking in favor of rule of law, speaking in favor of free media, you know, being a being, if not always a perfect model, then at least aspiring to be an inspiration for the world, suddenly look a lot different. And then, as I said, that's accompanied with this question of whether, when push came to shove, are we still planning to defend our democratic allies? Do we still have a community of values with not just the Europeans, but with the Japanese or with the South Koreans or with the Taiwanese? Do we still feel some obligation? And if there isn't a community of values and we don't really aspire to be a better democracy anymore, then do we still care about what happens to others? And that's, I think, a question many are asking today.

[Al Franken]

You say autocracies are not run by one person. Right. And I'm not sure I completely understand. I mean, does Putin run Russia or not?

[Peter Ogburn]

He's the leader of Russia, but his leadership is enabled through many other people. He doesn't run it by himself. So there are networks of people both inside Russia and in other countries who, for example, exchange surveillance technology and ideas about propaganda. The Russians work together with, you know, the Byelorussians to keep their regime in power. And the Byelorussians in turn help the Russians prosecute their war in Ukraine.

[Al Franken]

They allow troops in and material out.

[Peter Ogburn]

They allow elude troops in. They allow weapons in. They, you know, there are other things they're doing. They're very hostile. They create a lot of trouble for other countries.

[Al Franken]

On their border in Europe is Belarus considered. They don't, people don't trade with them. Other countries that are democracies, they used.

[Peter Ogburn]

To trade with them, but since the war, a lot of things are sanctioned. I think there's still some trade that goes back and forth, although there's an open conversation a lot of the time about whether we shouldn't Just shut the borders. One of the things Belarus is doing, and this is a new tactic, the Russians have done it in Finland as well, is to use migrants. They bring migrants deliberately from the Middle east. They bring them in large crowds to the Polish border. They, I mean, sometimes force them across the border where they create trouble for Polish border guards. And actually recently a Polish border guard was murdered by, by one of these migrants. So there's a, you know, this kind of weaponization of migration. And there, there, there are multiple attempts to destabilize Poland that come from Belarus. And Russia has the, has the same tactics elsewhere as well. You know, these are this kind of hybrid conflict. So there's a, there are military conflicts, there are cyber conflicts. There's actually, there's propaganda, obviously propaganda, conflict ob.

[Al Franken]

The key tools of autocracy propaganda and controlling the narrative as you call it in the book. And you wrote a piece in the Atlantic pretty recently about propaganda sources from China and Russia around the world. And it was astounding.

[Peter Ogburn]

Yeah, so the piece was taken from the book. It's not an exact excerpt, but it was kind of bits and pieces from the book were there. And it's really, it's exactly. It was trying to explain how Russian, Chinese, actually Venezuelan, Iranian and other propagandists now all often work together. They use some of the same networks, the same, you know, China has bought all these media properties in Africa for example, or has content sharing arrangements with them and they now cooperate. I mean, they publish Russian propaganda, they publish other propaganda. They. My favorite story there is the story of the so called bio labs in Ukraine.

[Al Franken]

That's in Ukraine. Right?

[Peter Ogburn]

Right after the outbreak of the war in Ukraine, a mythological story about biological weapons laboratories emerged. The Russians began repeating it. They put it out on all their broadcast networks, but also the Chinese began putting it out on their broadcast networks and all their television stations in Africa and so on.

[Al Franken]

And Fox News reported it, didn't it?

[Peter Ogburn]

And Tucker Carlson repeated it. And there were a couple of sort of social media bloggers and trolls.

[Al Franken]

And what percentage of Americans bought this?

[Peter Ogburn]

Something like 30% of Americans believed that this story was true because they'd seen it repeated in so many different places and they'd heard the. Either they heard Tucker Carlson say it or they saw it on social media or they heard some other echo of it or they heard it through one of the many fake networks or fake websites that the Russians run surreptitiously and they believed it. And that's it. It was an excellent illustration of how efficient this network is at Putting out lies and putting out distortions. And unfortunately, it also illustrates how, you know, it's not just the Russians doing this to us. It's Americans who want to use the same tactics and who sometimes use the same stories and the same narratives, how Americans are promoting it as well. So the mistake is thinking of this autocratic network as somehow something outside of the United States, you know, that we have to fight. No, it's inside the United States. It's part of our political culture.

[Al Franken]

Well, how do we. How do we fight this? How do the free world. Do we use that phrase anymore? Free world.

[Peter Ogburn]

I think we can revive it. I'm happy. I'm happy to talk about the free world.

[Al Franken]

Well, how do we respond to. I mean, because the sheer tonnage in that piece you wrote, which is also of the book, is amazing.

[Peter Ogburn]

The.

[Al Franken]

The amount of propaganda that is being thrown on social media and all around and TV and radio around in Africa and South America, all over.

[Peter Ogburn]

Well, so. Well, we'd have. We have to start by having a president of the United States who wants to fight the propaganda and doesn't want to be part of it. One of the things I'm afraid of is that in the fall we will make the wrong decision. And if we do, we risk being part of the problem rather than a solution to it. I mean, there are solutions. I've talked about them many times. I even talked about them once in a Senate testimony. You can both invest in telling a different story. We have these foreign radio stations and foreign broadcasting networks and foreign information networks.

[Al Franken]

And what do we do now? Do we not invest in those?

[Peter Ogburn]

Not much. I mean, we have Radio for Europe, Radio Liberty, which broadcasts in a bunch of languages. We have something called Radio Free Asia. We have Voice of America, which has been around for a long time, but by comparison to their Russian and Chinese equivalents, these are tiny. I mean, they're just small little projects. So we could think harder about that, but also we should think harder about how we use what we know, how we expose Russian and Chinese networks inside this country, how we talk about them. We should also think about regulating social media instead of letting the platforms do it voluntarily, which they don't do very well. We should. We might need to be a little bit more hard edged, you know, and there are ways to do that, too. While.

[Al Franken]

Tell me about that.

[Peter Ogburn]

Well, not censoring, but, you know. Yeah, you may. You maybe you disagree.

[Al Franken]

No, I don't, actually. But tell me about who does.

[Peter Ogburn]

Oh, well, the American right has pushed back against any attempt to do any form of social media regulation on the grounds that it's censorship because they want the right to put out propaganda and lies and they want the right to repeat, you know, Russian or Chinese or Iranian propaganda if it suits them. And they don't want any kind of regulation at all. And then some of the media platforms are agree with them. I mean, we see what happened to Twitter. I don't know how much time you waste on that platform, but it's, it's changed very dramatically. Yeah, it's had a dramatic change.

[Al Franken]

We're going to take a break for a moment. We'll be right back.

[Ann Applebaum]

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[Al Franken]

Let's talk about some of the other autocracies in the world. Venezuela, we I think mentioned in just before and I mean when, when did Chavez take over there?

[Peter Ogburn]

So it's back in the 80s. So it's a long, it was a long process. It was Chavez and then he died and he's now, he was replaced by Maduro. And Venezuela is interesting to me because Venezuela is an example of a country with a left wing ideology. Chavez talked like a left wing redistributionist, sort of socialist.

[Al Franken]

Well, he redistributed a lot of money to himself and to his friends.

[Peter Ogburn]

Right, exactly, exactly. I mean, and that's, that's where it wound up. But his his initial appeal was to the poorest in Venezuela, and he promised them he would lift them out of poverty. And what's happened instead is that he undermined Venezuela's instit. He brought an end to Venezuelan democracy, and he's now impoverished Venezuela to the extent that when I last looked, Venezuela was producing more refugees than Ukraine because Venezuela is so poor and there are so few opportunities there that people flee the country. I mean, a few years ago I was in Peru, and people there were already talking about the numbers of Venezuelans who were around seeking to start businesses or get jobs and so on, because there are so few opportunities in Venezuela. And we see them elsewhere, too. They show up on the US border. The destruction that first Chavez and then Maduro were able to wreak on their country is pretty extraordinary. It was the richest country in South America. It has oil. It had its stable democracy for several decades, and they destroyed it.

[Al Franken]

Who trades with them? Is this like Cuba and other autocracies that support them?

[Peter Ogburn]

Cuba trades with them. But one of the arguments I make in the book is that the Venezuelan regime, which is unbelievably unpopular, would not be in power were it not directly supported by this autocratic network that we started talking about. So the Russians give them weapons. The Chinese give them surveillance technology and.

[Al Franken]

Photography Inc. That's right.

[Peter Ogburn]

The Chinese invest in their companies and sometimes give kickbacks to the state. The Cubans help them out with surveillance, and they send spy to police and police and so on. So it's almost like there's this group of countries who are seeking to prop up Venezuela. And one of the most interesting ones, actually is Iran. So Iran is a country that has no historical links to Venezuela. What does they have to do with each other? Nothing, except that they're both sanctioned and they both produce oil. And the Iranians now help the Venezuelans evade sanctions. And the Venezuelans, in turn, give passports to Hezbollah terrorists, for example, they help the Iranians move around Europe. There's an exchange that they do, and it assists both regimes. And both regimes actually are unpopular. Both of them have impoverished their countries, and both of them stay in power through helping one another and through their contacts with Russia and China, et cetera.

[Al Franken]

I'm just struck with the level of evil. You write about Russia and Syria targeting hospitals and humanitarian aid.

[Peter Ogburn]

Yep. And they're doing it in Ukraine.

[Al Franken]

Again, is that to send a message.

[Peter Ogburn]

Or is it just a message? We don't care about your stupid rules. We're not interested in your morality or your human rights language or your un Resolutions.

[Al Franken]

You write this about the Russians. They built torture chambers for civilians, kidnapped thousands of children, gave them new Russian identities, and prevented them from returning home. That's. You said this to me. This is genocide.

[Peter Ogburn]

That's what the Russians are doing in Ukraine right now. That's exactly what they're doing. And they're doing it knowingly. They planned it. When Russian troops arrive in a. In a newly occupied Ukrainian territory, they have a program they carry out. They started looking for children as soon as they arrive. You know, they went to orphanages, they went to schools, they. All kinds of ways.

[Al Franken]

Now, how does Trump. I mean, Trump will end our efforts there, right?

[Peter Ogburn]

I mean, we don't really know what Trump will do because Trump himself doesn't have an ideology. He doesn't. I mean, he says one thing one day and one thing the next, but he's given, yeah, pretty strong indications that he would end U.S. support.

[Al Franken]

He seems to have a odd relationship with Putin.

[Peter Ogburn]

He has admired Putin for many years. He's never really hidden that his campaign sought to make contact with the Russians in lots of different ways before 2016. He very happily accepted Russian involvement in that campaign. Remember the leak of material from the dnc that was through a Russian hack and Russian social media games.

[Al Franken]

And that was part of the Mueller report.

[Peter Ogburn]

And the Mueller report showed all of that. I mean, it was. It was never disputed. There was a Senate Intelligence Committee investigation afterwards that repeated the findings of the Mueller report.

[Al Franken]

I think Bill Barr sort of mischaracterized the report.

[Peter Ogburn]

Bill Barr mischaracterized it and sought to downplay it because he didn't want Trump to be in trouble for it. But it was a. It was a big shadow overhanging the election, election in 2016. And it lingered throughout the term. And I think a second Trump term, particularly if, as I said, with Vance as his vice president and with major pro Russian people backing him, David Sachs and Elon Musk, then we're back having some of those conversations all over again and a bit more sinister this time. I think they have a clearer idea.

[Al Franken]

Of what they're doing very often. And you write about this in the book, that, that these oligarchs in. In Russia, for example, or in other autocracies park their. Their money overseas. Including in the United States.

[Peter Ogburn]

Yep. The United States has an extensive system of anonymously.

[Al Franken]

Right, That's.

[Peter Ogburn]

We have. We have states that allow anonymous companies to be created there or anonymous trusts. This includes normal, ordinary states like Delaware or Wyoming or South Dakota. You can create companies in those states very Easily you can do so anonymously and they can then operate anonymously. Some of this is beginning to change. There have been some laws passed recently that are just signed to make that more difficult, or at least for names to be registered somewhere. But up until now, both the financial markets, but also the real estate market was very open to money laundering. So it was very easy to buy an apartment or a condo and probably.

[Al Franken]

Bought from the Trump properties.

[Peter Ogburn]

Yes. So many properties, many of the Trump condos were sold to. Exactly. To these anonymous companies whose real owners, you say beneficial owners, aren't known. So we don't really know who buys them or who owns them. So very wealthy people who want to hide their wealth, park their wealth in houses or in apartments in the US or in London or in south of France as a way of storing money, as a way of keeping value, and they do it using these anonymous companies. So we essentially enabled this form of money laundering in the US And Europe as well.

[Al Franken]

You wrote a book, Twilight of Democracy, the Seductive Lure of Authoritarianism. When did you write that?

[Peter Ogburn]

That was published in 2020.

[Al Franken]

And it sounds like you're saying that authoritarianism was very attractive and seductive.

[Peter Ogburn]

Yes. The argument of that book was that it's more attractive than you think it is. You know, that people in our society, in the US or in Europe, see the appeal of it and can be drawn to it.

[Al Franken]

Are you more optimistic now, or were you then about our ability to fight these authoritarian regimes?

[Peter Ogburn]

I felt better after the 2020 election, and I'm afraid now I feel rather worse again. So I'm wor worried that we didn't really learn any lessons and that enormous numbers of Americans seem fine with the degrading of institutions, and they're fine with the idea of a United States that is either part of the autocratic world or in any way enables it. And I'm profoundly worried about it.

[Al Franken]

So in your epilogue, you write about how democracies can counter autocracies. What are some of those ways?

[Peter Ogburn]

Well, one of the. I mean, a lot of it involves domestic reform, and we can change our system so that we don't allow money laundering anymore. We can, as we discussed, you could regulate algorithms, or, you know, you could set up rules about foreign propaganda and social media, which isn't merely voluntary. You could begin to invest, as we've also discussed, in telling a better story abroad and in pushing back against autocratic narratives wherever they're found around the world. And then also, I mean, it's funny, I was doing a conversation like this recently with somebody else who pointed out to me that I didn't in the book talk a lot about the military. And that's partly because I was thinking of other things. But, but being prepared and understanding the scale of what we're facing and thinking harder about how we're going to modernize our defense establishment for the coming century, I think that's a part of the answer to.

[Al Franken]

Well, Anne, this is pretty dour and any, any higher note that we can end on because I, I'm not very optimistic right now about the. What's going on in our politics here.

[Peter Ogburn]

Well, I'll tell you a story that I recently heard about the Late Senator John McCain, who gave a speech in which he said, and what I'd like to conclude is by quoting Chairman Mao, who always said it's always darkest before it turns pitch black. And someone said to him afterwards, when did Chairman Mao say that? And he said he didn't say it. I made it up.

[Al Franken]

That sounds like McCain.

[Peter Ogburn]

Or as a famous European anarchist once said, there's always time for a bottle of champagne between the revolution and the firing squad. So I think we can just look around for black humor and ways to cheer ourselves up.

[Al Franken]

Well, I've always believed in black humor, so thank you and good luck with this. I think that this could be your next Pulitzer. Who knows? You don't think so? It's too short. You think it's too short?

[Peter Ogburn]

I think Pulitzers go to serious, heavy books. This is a short, provocative book.

[Al Franken]

Okay, well, you can't hurt anybody even with a hardcover of this thing. Autocracy Inc. The Dictators who Want to run the world. Thanks, Anne.

[Peter Ogburn]

Thank you.

[Al Franken]

Well, I hope you enjoyed listening. That beautiful music is by Leo Kottke. The great Leo Kottke. I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next week.

[Ann Applebaum]

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[Al Franken]

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[Ann Applebaum]

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