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- [00:02]
Bob Odenkirk
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- [00:35]
Al Franken
Hey, everybody. We got a Best of today. So, you know, when I say that this is a great one for a change, I actually mean it. We're bringing back my conversation with Bob Odenkirk, which we taped back in 2022 after he had just shot the last ever episode of Better Call Saul. Bob played Saul Goodman for 13 years, first on Breaking Bad and then on Better Call Saul two of my my favorite series. Now we're playing the best of, not just because it's one of our best, but because the sequel to his hit action movie Nobody, Nobody 2 is out in the theaters. Now. Bob told me a couple months ago that the sequel was testing through the roof, so you'll want to see that in the theaters. I know. I'm. I'm planning on it. And you'll want to listen to this one because Bob and I cover a lot of ground. We started working together almost 40 years ago at Saturday Night Live. I was one of the original writers on that first season 50 years ago. Bob joined as a writer in 1987. We reminisce about the old days, some of the pieces we wrote together, and about the classic he wrote for Chris Farley as Matt Foley, the motivational speaker who lived in a van down by the river. Then we talk about his cult favorite, Mr. Show on HBO with David Cross, plus his stint on Garry Shandling's show as Larry Sanders, agent. That's the part that got him the role of Saul Goodman and subsequently as a star in an action movie and its sequel. And he was just on Broadway in Glengarry Glen Ross, for which he was nominated for the Tony. I saw that opening night and it was. It was great.
- [02:26]
Bob Odenkirk
He was great, too.
- [02:28]
Al Franken
Bob has had a remarkable career in comedy, comedy, comedy, drama. The title of his memoir, Comedy, comedy, comedy, Drama. So give a listen. It's a great one, you know, for a change. So I love the book. Love the book. You talk about so much stuff that I relate to. One of the things I wanted to ask you about is that you started writing comedy really early.
- [03:07]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [03:08]
Al Franken
And it was Your ambition to be a comedy writer? Well, it wasn't. You didn't actually then think there was such a path for you, right?
- [03:16]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah, absolutely. And I don't know how you experienced your journey to finding that career, but, you know, it's that Midwestern thing of, like, you know, human beings don't do show business. I've never met anyone.
- [03:31]
Al Franken
We didn't know anybody.
- [03:32]
Bob Odenkirk
You don't even think about it. It's even saying that that line of thought is not even close enough to your brain. It's just an impossible consideration. So I had my. I would borrow my mom's typewriter when I was about 9 or 10 and write sketches, write fake parody commercials.
- [03:50]
Al Franken
And you're writing. This is fifth grade or when.
- [03:52]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah, that would be like sixth grade. Yeah. I think I shared in the book that some teachers would have me do. I did a series of sketches about different historic things. And I got big laughs, Al. I mean, they were really funny.
- [04:09]
Al Franken
You know, I wrote something very early about. It was a Civil War sketch.
- [04:15]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [04:16]
Al Franken
It was when I was really young. What happened was the boys were on the playground. We come back, the girls, we got a surprise for you. We're going down the AV room. The girls do a show. It's really corny. I get the boys together and we do a parody of their show and make them cry. And then Mrs. Morrison goes like, why don't we do a show together for the parents? And Alan can write it. That was. Alan and I did a Civil War sketch, and it was set in a Civil War first aid tent, like a Red Cross tent. And the girls were the nurses. And the one joke I remember that I wrote was that they hear about Lincoln getting assassinated over the radio, and it was an anachronism joke, and it didn't get a laugh. And I remember thinking, huh, I think I set this up wrong.
- [05:08]
Bob Odenkirk
Oh, my God, that is so cool. That is so cool. Is there anything that you can connect that to? Like, did you watch TV and think about writing or.
- [05:21]
Al Franken
God, yes, I watch. I love comedy. You loved comedy.
- [05:26]
Bob Odenkirk
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, you gotta know how important you were to that. You and Tom.
- [05:32]
Al Franken
Well, you don't mention me that much in the book.
- [05:35]
Bob Odenkirk
I do mention you, and I think I can't wait to hear what. I was a little concerned what you'd say.
- [05:40]
Al Franken
It sounds like the first time we meet, you pitch something and I'm an.
- [05:45]
Bob Odenkirk
Yes.
- [05:46]
Al Franken
I'm going, why?
- [05:47]
Bob Odenkirk
Why? What do you mean, why? It's a comedy show. It's a comedy bit. I. I But, well, in the end, you saved my ass, too, because.
- [05:58]
Al Franken
How did I save your ass?
- [05:59]
Bob Odenkirk
Because it was about the third week I was there, and I was already struggling really hard, and I was, you know, socially awkward as I just am. And. And. But I was for a long time. And you. Let me help you with that sketch. I hope I remember it correctly. It's the one where Phil's walking through the subway as the homeless guy, then he's the theater guy, and.
- [06:22]
Al Franken
Oh, yeah, yeah. He's begging on the subway. He's a homeless guy begging on the subway. And then just he comes back again. And now he's a member of a theater troupe that's fundraising for their theater troupe. He's not a homeless guy who's playing. Playing one in the last pass through the subway. And then he comes back several times, always asking for money.
- [06:49]
Bob Odenkirk
It's a great sketch. Let me just say what happened was you and Tom had written it, but it was mostly you. It was people passing through the subway. I'm a homeless guy. We're doing. Then we're doing play. And it was like I said, it should just be the same guy or something like that. And then it's one guy, and he keeps changing his story. And. And then you put my name on the sketch. And then Jim Downey said to you when he saw the sketch, and it was a good sketch. It played well in the show. He said, al, did Odenkirk really help, or are you just giving him a handout here? And you said, no, no, he helped. He made that sketch work. And that was huge for me. Huge.
- [07:30]
Al Franken
We wrote some stuff together. And I also remember, like, Love Toilet.
- [07:34]
Bob Odenkirk
Oh, yeah.
- [07:35]
Al Franken
Remember Love Toilet.
- [07:35]
Bob Odenkirk
Love Toilet. Yeah. It's a great sketch. And. And I was talking to people about comedy sketches, and I learned so much from Robert Smigel.
- [07:46]
Al Franken
Oh, my God. And you knew Robert in.
- [07:48]
Bob Odenkirk
In Chicago, But I learned a lot from you because you just knew how to write a sketch, really a strong sketch that would work on the show. And you could write sort of across the different genres, too. So I learned a lot from. From just being around you.
- [08:06]
Al Franken
Well, thanks. Now, you wrote probably one of the most classic sketches, which was Farley as Matt Foley, motivational speaker, which I wrote.
- [08:17]
Bob Odenkirk
In my third year at snl. So it was. I had three years of a lot I'd learned under my belt by then.
- [08:26]
Al Franken
You write about. In the book about your first interview with Lorne.
- [08:29]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [08:32]
Al Franken
That was crazy what you did.
- [08:33]
Bob Odenkirk
I know. It's so stupid.
- [08:37]
Al Franken
Tell the folks. You bomb. Tell the folks.
- [08:40]
Bob Odenkirk
I had such issues with authority, you know, and poor Lorne, for Lauren, caught the brunt of it, but I really did. And I'm a waiter. I'm not even a waiter, Al. I'm not even a waiter yet. I'm still taking. They don't even trust me to take orders. I just bring food to the table, basically. Lorne. Well, Robert tells me you write sketches, and what do you like? And then I go, well, I like Python. You know, kind of like sctv. Not so into this show. Don't think Saturday Night Live is very good. Interesting, interesting. Well, what do you. Do you want to write sketches on this show? You know, Lauren, I don't think it's going in the right direction. I don't know if I want to. I don't think I would actually. I really, truly walked in thinking, he doesn't want me to kiss his ass. This guy must get his ass kissed every day, all day long. He wants to hear a cold, hard realist. Tell him, you know, the truth.
- [09:54]
Al Franken
You might have overdone it.
- [09:58]
Bob Odenkirk
I did. I promise you, I did. I can't believe I got hired. Even when I walked out of the room, I was like, you handled that wrong. That was so wrong. And then later, you know, Mike Myers had a meeting at Bonnie and Terry Turner met at the same time, and I think Mike did one of them. I talked to later and said, you know, I kind of treated Lorne. I was very critical of the show. What did you do? And then they said, I think it was Mike. He goes, oh, I told him it was all I wanted to do my whole life.
- [10:33]
Al Franken
That's the right. That's the right answer to that question.
- [10:37]
Bob Odenkirk
You say it. You know, I do think Lorne appreciated a little bit that I was a comedy snob and that, you know, he loved Python, too, a lot.
- [10:45]
Al Franken
Oh, I got a story to tell you about Python. So the first year of the show, I think even before the show started, you know, we all went to the Pythons or on Broadway. And so we're invited to the party afterwards. And I go up to Cleese and I said, you're my favorite. And he goes, I. Oh, really? Tell him. And he points to Eric.
- [11:06]
Bob Odenkirk
Oh, God, that's great.
- [11:11]
Al Franken
He did it hilariously, too.
- [11:13]
Bob Odenkirk
Yes, it's wonderful.
- [11:14]
Al Franken
Okay, let's talk about. God, there's so much to talk about in this book. This book is so rich. Here are some of the things I want to talk about. Okay. Yeah, Del Close. I want to talk about Bob and Ray. I want to talk about the credibility gap. I want to talk about Mike McKean. I want to talk about nobody. Of course. I want to talk about Saul. Of course. Breaking Bad. Of course. Of course, of course.
- [11:35]
Bob Odenkirk
How about My Heart Attack?
- [11:37]
Al Franken
How about your heart Attack?
- [11:41]
Bob Odenkirk
Well, let's. Let's. The book. You know, I didn't. You know.
- [11:46]
Al Franken
You didn't do the heart Attack.
- [11:47]
Bob Odenkirk
No, I didn't, because I wanted it to be a version of that conversation I had with Dell where Dell rambled about his career.
- [11:56]
Al Franken
And let's tell who Dell is.
- [11:58]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah. So Del Oppos was a mercurial figure from the theater of the 1960s and 70s. He was part of the Compass Players when they were in St. Louis with Mike Nichols and Elaine May and Severn Darden. And he was part of the committee in San Francisco. And he was an actor teacher and director of improvisation at Second City for most of his career. And I bumped into him on the street. I didn't know what he looked like. I barely knew his name. And by happenstance, when I was strongly considering going into show business, hoping, wishing I could find a way in or understand a way in, I bumped into him in a bookstore in Chicago and I said, are you Del Close? I had remembered his name from the program at Second City and also from the Saturday Night Live credits where he'd spent a year or two as the acting coach when they were trying to develop a certain degree of camaraderie amongst this cast that they couldn't get to gel. It was Eddie Murphy, Joe Piscopo.
- [13:11]
Al Franken
Oh, okay. That was during the Ebersol.
- [13:15]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah. And they. They brought Del in to do theater games and shit with people. Some people were into it, some didn't participate. Dell, by the way, loved Eddie Murphy and thought Joe Piscopo was kind of funny, but didn't love him. And. But he loved all the other guys who were, you know, actors, sketch type actors. Julia Louis Dreyfus and whoever else was on in those years. And so Dell had just quit that job at snl. I had seen his name on the credits. I run into him in the street. I say, are you Del Close? And I have my little recorder with me. I go, I'm here for my college radio station. Can I interview you?
- [13:51]
Al Franken
And.
- [13:51]
Bob Odenkirk
And he said, yeah, I'd love to talk. I just quit cocaine, I just quit heroin. I just quit Second City. And I would love to talk about what's next for me. And so we went to his little shithole hobbit apartment and he rambled for two and a half Hours, most of which I still have on cassette.
- [14:11]
Al Franken
Yeah, you, you know, you quote from it freely, long passages, but everyone should know this guy's a God in improv.
- [14:19]
Bob Odenkirk
But at the time he wasn't. And by the way, Al, at the time he was years old. And I, I would have guessed at the time, I would have thought he was 60, at least 65 maybe.
- [14:29]
Al Franken
And that's of course being heroin and cocaine. Yeah, I was 21, do that too.
- [14:35]
Bob Odenkirk
But also he did all these drugs. So he talked and I walked out of his apartment two hours later and thought, I'm gonna do this, man. I'm gonna try. This could be the greatest career ever to be in. Because I don't know what it was. It was about his energy. You know what else, Al, I was excited about? I'd never met someone his age who was talking excitedly about what they were going to do next week.
- [15:03]
Al Franken
Well, your dad certainly didn't.
- [15:04]
Bob Odenkirk
No, but you know what I mean, guys back then, once they were 40, 50 years old, it was golf and, I don't know, dragging your ass around, getting the shit done and hoping to retire as soon as you could. And so it was just amazing to meet somebody who was like, I'm doing a theater show next week and I don't know what it's going to be, but we're going to have monologues, we're going to use the news newspaper. Like, what are you, you know, you seem like you're my age and I loved that energy. And I felt like I don't have to be a success, a massive success to be happy pursuing this career. I could do the kinds of offbeat things that he had done and that would be. Sounded pretty wonderful to me. And also, I knew I wasn't going to do drugs like that because I just don't like them that much.
- [16:02]
Al Franken
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- [18:12]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [18:16]
Al Franken
Oh, my God. You work with him in Chicago.
- [18:18]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [18:19]
Al Franken
And just the funniest.
- [18:23]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [18:24]
Al Franken
Most magnetic. Just could make the audience laugh at will.
- [18:31]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [18:31]
Al Franken
You know, you talk about him going up and down.
- [18:35]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [18:35]
Al Franken
With drugs and stuff. And I went through that with him. And he tried. He really tried a lot. But he was in halfway houses. He went to rehabs. He had periods where he did it. And it was just so unbelievably, such a waste, of course, of that. I know that you are not happy with the Chippendale sketch, which Downey wrote.
- [19:02]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah, no, I really don't like it. And I think it was a bad thing that it happened. I don't think I'm alone. I think Chris Rock feels the same way. Because, Al, no matter what you say about the construction of the sketch or what the core joke of it was, the truth is that audience responded in a huge way, both because of the humor, but it was amplified by Chris's physique, which was shocking. And Chris knew it. And, you know, I feel like I can see it in his eyes and some part of him. And you know, he walked around saying, fatty fall down retarded. Calling himself. He did that all the time, every day. And to me, that moment was him saying, they laugh at me because I'm a up mess, fat disaster. And he wanted that laughter so bad. And especially at that moment. That was his first big sketch on the show and that is why the response was as big as it was. It was supercharged by that shock and awe which he'd gotten before he did it at Second City too. In various Forms, you know, he would take his shirt off, but he. It just reinforced in him. That's why they're laughing at me. That's my value to the world is this big, obnoxious, you know, kind of appalling physique. And it just broke my heart. And I just think it just played to Chris's worst instincts about himself. And I know there was a great joke in that sketch. There's a great joke. Of course it's funny that the judges can't decide who's a better dancer or why they like Patrick Swayze.
- [21:03]
Al Franken
This is the part of the job I hate. Was Mike Myers line.
- [21:08]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [21:09]
Al Franken
They had to choose between, yeah, great.
- [21:12]
Bob Odenkirk
Great, even a great bottom line, a great sketch. But it just. It. Maybe Jim doesn't recognize it, but he's a pretty goddamn smart guy. Maybe he didn't know Chris well enough yet. But for people who knew him, I feel like it was not good.
- [21:30]
Al Franken
But they also. He was so coordinated. I mean, so.
- [21:35]
Bob Odenkirk
Oh, he's a great dancer.
- [21:36]
Al Franken
Graceful. And it was. That was part of it too. And also his attitude in it.
- [21:44]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah, but Al, look, you know, I just think it's a disagreement. I mean, I love those guys. And maybe this is me. Maybe I'm projecting my feelings, but I feel like, you know, Chris walked around saying that stuff about himself, and that's my feeling. Is it maybe reinforce that in a bad way?
- [22:06]
Al Franken
Well, let's talk about you.
- [22:08]
Bob Odenkirk
Okay.
- [22:09]
Al Franken
Okay. I mean, the book is kind of about you.
- [22:11]
Bob Odenkirk
Troublesome, cantankerous, hard to read.
- [22:15]
Al Franken
Yeah. One thing in the book that really made me laugh is when you describe your dad. Dad's job, what your dad's job was.
- [22:22]
Bob Odenkirk
He made business forms.
- [22:30]
Al Franken
And I think you say in the book something like, say that again to yourself, and then you'll be in my thrall or something.
- [22:38]
Bob Odenkirk
Now you are asleep, and you will do my bidding.
- [22:42]
Al Franken
He made business forms. There's nothing. And he was. He was not a happy guy, it sounds like.
- [22:50]
Bob Odenkirk
And no, I think he was. You know, I wish I could tell you more about him, but I didn't. I tried to get to know him. I really did. When he. When I was 22, I got a phone call that he was dying of cancer and we should come see him. And so my brother and I drove down to Indianapolis where he was staying with his parents. And I thought, this is a great opportunity. I very clearly, consciously said to myself, this is my chance. I'm gonna hi to him. I'm going to talk to him, and I'm going To connect with them. And, you know, I knew he was a funny guy. He made wise cracks. He loved barroom jokes, and he didn't love the kind of humor I love, but he did like to laugh, like. Like jokes and stuff. But, man, I tell you, I went, forget it. It's not happening. This guy was laying in bed talking about somebody else's car that was better than his and somebody who got a job that they didn't deserve. And why didn't he get it?
- [23:48]
Al Franken
Resentment, it sounds like.
- [23:50]
Bob Odenkirk
I don't understand who goes through life doing that math, you know, it. It's just. Was crazy. I was just sitting there going, who gives a shit? By the way, you're dying of cancer.
- [24:02]
Al Franken
Okay, okay, now we're happy. Let's go. Happy.
- [24:06]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah. But your podcast doesn't need to be happy. It can be.
- [24:10]
Al Franken
No, we call ourselves the Happy Podcast. Let's talk about some of the influences that you have. The credibility gap. And Mike McKean, who plays your brother, Better Call Saul, who's brilliant in it. Brilliant in it. And by the way, I love the show. I love it.
- [24:31]
Bob Odenkirk
You're so great.
- [24:32]
Al Franken
If Franny and I binge watched it again during the. During the pandemic.
- [24:39]
Bob Odenkirk
Wow.
- [24:40]
Al Franken
And Ray is wonderful. Everybody is wonderful. But Mike. Wow.
- [24:46]
Bob Odenkirk
Wow.
- [24:48]
Al Franken
And he came from the credibility gap, which was. And he was Lenny and Swiggy. I can't remember. He's Lenny or Squiggy with Dave Lander. And the credibility gap had Harry Sheer in it, too.
- [24:58]
Bob Odenkirk
Yes.
- [24:59]
Al Franken
You know, they did a who's on First. You write about somebody doing a who's on First.
- [25:03]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah. Steven Leo, who's on First. But they did a great who's on First? The credibility gap did. It was a lineup for a three day, like Woodstock Festival.
- [25:12]
Al Franken
Yeah. And it was the who, the Guess, Guess who, and. Yes.
- [25:18]
Bob Odenkirk
That's what I'm trying to find out.
- [25:23]
Al Franken
And it was. It was just perfect. And you're a big Bob and Ray fan.
- [25:27]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah. And we should talk about Bob and Ray.
- [25:30]
Al Franken
I try to get my listeners to really pay attention to Bob and Ray.
- [25:33]
Bob Odenkirk
I wish their stuff was more accessible. I don't know why it's not on Spotify or something.
- [25:38]
Al Franken
It's on YouTube. You can go to stuff on YouTube.
- [25:41]
Bob Odenkirk
Okay.
- [25:42]
Al Franken
It's not the radio stuff, but some of it is. Some of it is radio.
- [25:46]
Bob Odenkirk
Brilliant stuff. And you love them too, huh? How did you hear them, Al?
- [25:50]
Al Franken
You know what? I heard them the same way you heard them. Which is. A friend of mine had a tape of them.
- [25:56]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah. Yeah, that's how I did.
- [25:58]
Al Franken
So you and I had the exact same experience, which is we didn't grow up. We didn't grow up in New York where they were on radio.
- [26:04]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [26:05]
Al Franken
We had the exact same. Matt Newman played them for me and Tom.
- [26:09]
Bob Odenkirk
You were. Hey, do you remember the Bob and Ray bit where the guy is swimming across the country and he's got a semi truck filled with water, and for every length of the truck that the truck drives, he swims one lap as it drives across the country? They just did some just brilliant, silly and dry. Just dry as hell stuff. It's just the best.
- [26:38]
Al Franken
Now, Smigel, let's talk Smigel.
- [26:40]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah. Robert Smigel is one of the great comedy writers of the era.
- [26:45]
Al Franken
And you know what's great is that both you and he, he always wanted to be a sketch writer, you know, And I. Tom and I were doing a movie in Chicago.
- [26:57]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [26:58]
Al Franken
And we went to see his show. And what was the name of that group?
- [27:03]
Bob Odenkirk
All you can eat. All you can eat was the show. Robert Smigel and a group of funny sketch performers got together and did a show that was mostly scripted by Robert Smigel. He wrote most of the sketches. Even if some other people maybe had the idea. Robert put them into words and into script and constructed them. And it was such a hit that it played for a year and a half at the theater building and did really well. And one of the actors in that show was Dave Reynolds. And you and Tom were. Right. Had written a movie and were directing it called Just another Saturday night.
- [27:39]
Al Franken
We weren't directing it. We weren't directing it, but just another Saturday night.
- [27:43]
Bob Odenkirk
And you cast Dave in one of the leads. It was kind of an ensemble pie.
- [27:47]
Al Franken
Right, right.
- [27:48]
Bob Odenkirk
And because Dave had to go shoot your movie, I got. Being a friend of Robert's, I got to fill in for Dave in the sketch show for probably five weeks, which was a lot of good money for me. Thank you, Al.
- [28:04]
Al Franken
It also was the key to your career.
- [28:07]
Bob Odenkirk
It was because I got to know Robert even better. And then you guys came because you've gotten to know Dave Reynolds and you wanted to. And he had told you about this great sketch show he was in, and you guys came and watched all you can eat. I wasn't in it. Dave was in it that night. And then you said, who wrote this shit? It's great. And you found you met Robert. And then the next year, you and Tom were executive producers of Saturday night Live.
- [28:32]
Al Franken
Producers. Producers.
- [28:34]
Bob Odenkirk
Okay, thank you. And you hired Robert as a writer and because Robert got hired as a writer over the next two and a half years, I was able to contribute over the phone and continue getting to know Robert. And he was seeing my work as I was writing.
- [28:51]
Al Franken
You know what's impressive about that group and, well, about Robert, really. So Tom and I watch the show and we just. Of course, we go like, who wrote this? You know, who wrote this stuff? And they won't say, and Robert won't say. And I think we went to see it again and I just figured out it was Robert.
- [29:12]
Bob Odenkirk
See, I remember because I talked to Robert about this and he said, oh, I didn't write everything. I didn't. This idea was Hughes and this idea.
- [29:22]
Al Franken
And it's like, well, not everything in it was great.
- [29:25]
Bob Odenkirk
No, it was really good, but damn good. I mean, for a bunch of kids putting on a show to make a show that runs like that one did. And I can even remember some of the sketches. The. They were just pretty well done. And Robert clearly oversaw the writing. But listen, I owe you for my whole career, as you can see.
- [29:47]
Al Franken
No, that's not true.
- [29:48]
Bob Odenkirk
That's true.
- [29:50]
Al Franken
Well, I did tell Vince Gilligan about you.
- [29:55]
Bob Odenkirk
You did tell Vince Gilligan about this idea about a chemistry teacher who has to make meth.
- [30:01]
Al Franken
Well, Smiggle, people should know. I think they know him as Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog. I mean, he's the behind that, but he's behind so much Dubbears. He's behind all this. He's a brilliant writer, one of the stalwarts at the show, and a perfectionist and hilarious. So it's good that you knew Robert there. So I credit Robert more than us. We just saw it. We figured out Robert. That's what we did. I Missed youh Show.
- [30:37]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [30:38]
Al Franken
With David Cross.
- [30:39]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [30:39]
Al Franken
You guys were doing stuff that was very different in Sensibility, which is why it was a cult. I mean, is.
- [30:46]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [30:47]
Al Franken
A cult hit.
- [30:48]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah, I mean, we did some pretty crazy stuff. We, you know, Al, we did some sketches that are pretty traditional sketches like Hunger Strike or Lie Detector or. The Audition is one that people love to do in their.
- [31:01]
Al Franken
Well, the Audition is a classic, and it's tradition. It has a very. That feels like a very David Cross kind of conceptual.
- [31:11]
Bob Odenkirk
It was written by Dino Stamatopoulos, who you might know. Great writer. You know, when I think of that show, we certainly had fun and we indulged our every whim. But my favorite thing about the show were the. Just the solid, good sketches we did that. That are kind of classic construction sketches. Not. Not the stuff where we wandered around being indulgent, because that stuff is kind of easy to do. But I'm really proud of the probably about 10 or 12 sketches that are just great ones. And one of them is the story of Everest. Have you ever seen that one?
- [31:51]
Al Franken
No.
- [31:52]
Bob Odenkirk
Oh, you'd love it. Go on YouTube and watch the story of Everest.
- [31:57]
Al Franken
Okay, I just want to interrupt the conversation here. I did that. I went on YouTube. I got the story of Everest. It's hilarious. It's. And it's. It is a classic. Is so funny. Do yourself a favor. After you're done with this podcast, don't. Don't stop listening to this podcast, for God sakes. But then go to YouTube and get the story of Everest. You'll be glad you did.
- [32:24]
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- [32:51]
Al Franken
Well, you did the Shamling show. Yeah. Larry Sanders. You played his. Were you a network exec or an agent?
- [32:59]
Bob Odenkirk
I was an agent. I was Ari Emanuel, essentially.
- [33:02]
Al Franken
Yeah.
- [33:03]
Bob Odenkirk
I was just doing my impersonation of Ari.
- [33:05]
Al Franken
And it's so funny that when you were called about Breaking Bad, you hadn't seen it, right?
- [33:12]
Bob Odenkirk
No, I hadn't. I didn't. I didn't watch it until I was on the plane. I had a DVD of it and I watched about maybe 15 minutes of it. I kind of knew it was it. I knew it was a drama. That's all I knew. I mean, it wasn't a hit.
- [33:32]
Al Franken
That's all you need to know.
- [33:33]
Bob Odenkirk
The show wasn't a hit.
- [33:36]
Al Franken
It wasn't. And it. That was. Was it the first? That was first season or second? First.
- [33:40]
Bob Odenkirk
It was the second season.
- [33:42]
Al Franken
Second.
- [33:42]
Bob Odenkirk
The first season was abbreviated because of the writer strike.
- [33:46]
Al Franken
Oh, that's right.
- [33:47]
Bob Odenkirk
And as a result, not many people had seen it. And the one friend that I called about it raved about it, said, it's the best show on tv. You have to do that show. But nobody else, I think I knew, had he ever even seen it.
- [34:02]
Al Franken
I love that. Okay, so you. You're gonna shoot for the first time and Saul has lots of lines.
- [34:09]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [34:10]
Al Franken
And you're used to comedy. I guess. I. I think in comedy sketches, you have to learn your lines, but you're used to sort of like, okay, it changes lines.
- [34:22]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah, I'm used to. I'm used to a lot of freedom with like, punch up the lines, say what you want. That's funny, and shift it around all you want, you know? And I'm also used to things getting cut down al. You know, comedy. There. There are some funny comic monologues, but most of the time it's kind of a faster paced dialogue. It pops back and forth between characters, and you don't sit on one person for six lines or more. And this thing that I got from. From Breaking Bad was Saul Goodman talking and talking and talking.
- [34:58]
Al Franken
And you sort of didn't bother to learn your lines at first?
- [35:02]
Bob Odenkirk
No, I. I didn't learn my lines for the first week. I didn't bother. I. I was certain. I was certain that they were gonna change that to just cut those monologues down to two lines. So. So I didn't learn it. I get there on Friday. I have the weekend, the shoot is on, like, Tuesday. I get the blue pages, which is like, I don't know, the second rewrite or the third. And it's really where you should start. You should know your lines then. And nothing has changed. One word has been altered. And I'm like, oh, I have. Well, I have two days. But I've never done anything like the. The rambling monologues that Saul did. And so I just dug in, man. I, I didn't. I was, you know, I was scared, but I. I was. I had the time to do it. I just dug in and. And I did that. I did an impersonation of Robert Evans because, you know, Evans had that kind of cliffhanger. What am I going to say next? You have no idea. And it was kind of fun to listen to. You're like, wow, what is he gonna say next? It's just crazy, right? Did. I did. Was it the best thing that ever happened to me or the worst? It was both, you know, and I just did that just to kind of prep, just to keep myself entertained. But I also thought it was kind of fun to find, like, a different rhythm and try to make those monologues fun to listen to.
- [36:40]
Al Franken
You kind of right about, you know, acting and being in the moment in a pretty. I mean, you wrote the book now, so you've been doing how many years of Saul? How many seasons?
- [36:53]
Bob Odenkirk
Well, I mean, it's like 13 years ago that I started playing that character we've. And Al, by the way, we finished shooting the series a week ago today.
- [37:06]
Al Franken
So how's it end?
- [37:07]
Bob Odenkirk
I can't tell you anything.
- [37:09]
Al Franken
Okay, okay, okay. Of course you can't.
- [37:12]
Bob Odenkirk
Here's what I'll tell you, Al. The two shows, Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul have never been so intertwined.
- [37:23]
Al Franken
Oh, good. I was hoping that. I was hoping that. Because that is bringing it up to date. Right. That's the whole point. It's a backstory.
- [37:34]
Bob Odenkirk
Well, you could. The way it works is basically those. The writers have their choice of how much they want to tie these two shows together. And in the last season, I was very surprised at how they dug in on that and they really bound them together and it's pretty cool. Pretty cool.
- [37:52]
Al Franken
Well, I mean, that makes a lot of sense, obviously, because. Yeah.
- [37:56]
Bob Odenkirk
I think when you watch the last season of Saul, if you watch it, and I hope you will, you'll probably want to watch Breaking Bad after. As soon as it's done.
- [38:05]
Al Franken
Well, that's exciting. I've been waiting.
- [38:08]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [38:09]
Al Franken
For those to intersect.
- [38:10]
Bob Odenkirk
Well, I even held this up and then I had a heart attack. And that took me up for five weeks.
- [38:14]
Al Franken
Oh, let's talk about the heart attack just a little bit.
- [38:17]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [38:17]
Al Franken
So you're fine, you're fine.
- [38:19]
Bob Odenkirk
Alec goes like this. It goes. You're fine, you're fine. You're dead. Then you're fine again.
- [38:28]
Al Franken
Yeah. Your kind of heart stopped or something. Right.
- [38:32]
Bob Odenkirk
Well, look, yes, I had a full on heart attack. I was very lucky because we were in the studio and we had walked to the far side of the studio. It was Covid, so COVID protocols kept everyone far from each other, which might have been dangerous, but it would have been far more dangerous if we'd been on location or if I'd gone to my trailer. I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't be talking to you. There'd be no season because I would have died. So I had a heart attack. But Racy Horn and Patrick Fabian were right there at their spots nearby and they saw me go down. They ran right over to me. They started yelling because Ray said I turned blue right away. Like. Like within seconds I was turning blue and gray. They started screaming. People were very far away because it's a huge modern studio and they actually thought people were laughing or they couldn't tell what was the yelling was. But I think it was pretty intense. And then some. The medic came over and I'll just say it was his first day as a medicine and he Lost his shit a little bit. His jaw dropped and he kind of froze. Ray and Patrick continued to yell and slap me and shit. And eventually some of the crew wandered over. Not too long, and they went and got Rosa Estrada and Angie Meyer, who was the ad. And Rosa Estrada was a medic. She'd served a tour with the army. And she ran out from her office and started cpr. Total pro. Crazy pro. Did it just right. She's done it before. And she also had an AED in her car. So Angie Meyer took over while she ran to her car after about 10 minutes and got the AED.
- [40:31]
Al Franken
What's an AED?
- [40:32]
Bob Odenkirk
An AED is a defibrillator that you can, you know, it's like a simple one that you can keep in your car. You can have it at your house. They have them.
- [40:40]
Al Franken
Oh, yeah, yeah, I have one.
- [40:42]
Bob Odenkirk
Do you?
- [40:43]
Al Franken
No. Well, a lot of people didn't know what it was.
- [40:47]
Bob Odenkirk
It's really easy to use. And it's a different. Okay. By the way, I was told later the safest place to have a heart attack is a casino or a airport because they have AEDs everywhere anyway. Okay, plan your next heart attack. Morongo Casino. Anyway, she jacked me up. It took me three shots to come back to a steady rhythm, which is a lot. And. And if anything was the most scary point, it was after the second defibrillation that didn't work. People were. People were pretty sure it was over. So luckily the third one worked. And the next morning I had this surgery through my wrist to put in two stents. So, you know, that's it.
- [41:44]
Al Franken
And you're good.
- [41:45]
Bob Odenkirk
I am now.
- [41:46]
Al Franken
Who told you? Did anybody. Any of your friends ever tell you that maybe they're working you too hard?
- [41:54]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah. Yeah, some friends did. I think maybe you said something.
- [42:01]
Al Franken
Yeah. And Robert.
- [42:03]
Bob Odenkirk
Robert, you know how showbiz works. They get the money.
- [42:06]
Al Franken
No, but you were doing like what, 14 hours?
- [42:09]
Bob Odenkirk
First of all, you're 16.
- [42:10]
Al Franken
14 hour days. And. And you're the star of the. There's no show if you say, guys, we're doing 12 hour days.
- [42:20]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah, I know, I know. And you made this point to me and I thank you for it. You and Robert did me a great service by giving me the same lecture on two different phone calls with great emphasis and gusto and certainty. And it meant a lot to hear. It helped me a lot because as I was coming back, I wasn't sure how to approach the job. And there was talk about I was still in a pretty. We can stay for A couple months, Al. I couldn't. I couldn't have done more than 12 hours. Thank God we landed on that and made it a, you know, a sure thing.
- [43:01]
Al Franken
And, and the rest of the crew just was so happy that you did that, right?
- [43:05]
Bob Odenkirk
They really were. They really were. They were all thankful that, that there was a reason to call the day after 12 hours. I mean, oftentimes they had to continue with other actors and other scenes, but it, it did limit what the whole crew could do most days. And they were all very appreciative, you know, but this is how this business works. You know, you get the money for a movie or TV show and then you get to the set and then you just try to shoot until you're done and whatever that means, you go as late as you can.
- [43:39]
Al Franken
I know, but this is a series that you're the star of.
- [43:43]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah, well, you and Robert made the point to me when this 12 hour limit was in play and I was like, I don't know. I don't want to hold up the show and I don't want to limit. People are willing to do 16 hours. I mean, they're willing to do anything. They're so happy to be in show business. And you said, what the fuck is your problem? You fucking died. Take care of yourself. And you. You guys were right.
- [44:08]
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- [44:35]
Al Franken
I want to talk about Nobody.
- [44:37]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [44:37]
Al Franken
Are you gonna do the sequel?
- [44:39]
Bob Odenkirk
Oh, yeah, I want to. I mean, we're writing it right now. I say we.
- [44:44]
Al Franken
Nobody was the number one movie in the country for quite a while. And it's great.
- [44:50]
Bob Odenkirk
It's the number one streamer of the year.
- [44:53]
Al Franken
It's so fabulous, that movie. I mean, it's so funny to go from sketchwriter, comedian, I mean, you know, a sketch player, to a small part on Larry Sanders, to Saul on Breaking Bad, to having the whole Barrett Call Saul show built around you. But then to be. I think I called you after I saw. I don't even think I had seen it yet. I saw the trailer, but I knew how successful it was. Already and said you should just do a talk show and say you're only doing action movies. It's so great, Al.
- [45:36]
Bob Odenkirk
Thank you, man. Thank you. It was such a crazy dream to do it.
- [45:41]
Al Franken
It was like, hey, everybody. Everybody listens to this. Just stream this thing and you'll thank me and then listen to the podcast again.
- [45:52]
Bob Odenkirk
Thank you.
- [45:53]
Al Franken
Let's see. Oh, Jeremy Irons. You got to tell us Jeremy Irons stories. He hosted the show.
- [45:58]
Bob Odenkirk
He's hosting the show, and he's a great actor.
- [46:01]
Al Franken
Snl.
- [46:02]
Bob Odenkirk
And I'm supposed to write the monologue with Rob Schneider, I believe. Yeah. And we have an idea, and that's its own fight. Me and Schneider or anybody in Schneider.
- [46:18]
Al Franken
I wrote stuff with him where we had a great time.
- [46:22]
Bob Odenkirk
Yes, good. So we write this monologue, and it's just about. He's up for an Oscar. And it's just about the Oscar. I can't remember what it is. It's just about the Oscar. And it's like, smart, smart alec shit. And it's not. There's not a lot to it. So we go down, we show it to him. He reads it. He's getting pressured. I mean, it's like, I think it's Saturday. Might be Friday, but I think it's Saturday. He's got to do it a few hours, and he gets so mad at me. And I have a little recorder that I was using to record my ideas and stuff. And I press record as he starts to get mad at me. And I recorded him yelling at me, and he goes on this rant where he's like, I don't know. I don't know. What is it, Mr. Irons? Well, it's just that, I mean, I'm an actor. I can dance, I can sing, I can do gymnastics. I'm a juggler. I can do monologues. And you have me doing things. This. This is what you want me to do. He's so mad. And he's right. He's kind of right. He can do a lot of cool shit. And we have him making stupid wisecracks about wanting to win an Oscar or something. I don't know.
- [47:50]
Al Franken
Yeah, he was difficult. I mean, Downey had written a brilliant piece with him. And Farley, he's a former, like, banker, like, enormously rich banker from London who's disgraced, and he has to go to Nebraska and manage a Burger King or something like that. And he's interviewing Farley for a job. Do you have a car? But then it's just a monologue of him saying what he used to be and just hating this. And he just goes to Jim like, it's one joke, isn't it? It's just one joke.
- [48:35]
Bob Odenkirk
Some of the best sketches are one joke.
- [48:39]
Al Franken
I know. No, this was a brilliant sketch.
- [48:43]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [48:43]
Al Franken
And it was Jim down. I mean, I'm not saying Jim wrote some pieces that died, but we all did. But this one was hilarious.
- [48:52]
Bob Odenkirk
Wait, you have to tell me, Al. You have to tell the whole world about the Steven Seagal sketch real quick. Real quick. The last one, the one where he ends up by looking into camera and saying, that's what you get from messing with Mother Nature or something.
- [49:07]
Al Franken
If anyone ever asked me who is the worst host ever, there's no question. Yeah, it's Steven Seagal. Oh, my God. You know, he was so bad. This is a. I don't know if you know this story. So, like, two weeks later, we had Nicolas Cage, and he's had done this movie, Moonstruck, I think, with Cher.
- [49:31]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [49:32]
Al Franken
And his monologue, he starts just talking about how great it was working with Cher, and he just talks about her body parts and stuff. And Davey Wilson, you know, over the thing goes, you know, Nick, could you. You know, Lauren wants to talk to you. And Lauren goes, like, why are you talking about her? Well, they're just so great. He goes, well, you know, you're Sophia Coppola's cousin. What if someone talked about, you know, her like that? And he goes, oh, God, you're right. Oh. And he does that kind of thing. And. And then he goes, you must think I'm the worst host that ever hosted the show. And Lauren just goes, no, that would be Steven Cigar. And then. And then about two weeks later, I'm on the Tonight Show, Jay's hosting, and it's like me and the Ramones. And I'm going, that's not a Tonight Show. And when I get there, it's Seagal is the big guest. And then. So I. I'm the second guest. I get there on the chair, and during a break after my first segment, he leans over to me, goes like, why did Lauren say that about me?
- [50:44]
Bob Odenkirk
Oh, geez.
- [50:45]
Al Franken
And I kind of freeze. I don't know what to say. And Jay just leans over and goes, oh, you know, the joke is that, you know, you're the. You're this. Yeah, you're such a big star. And, you know, wouldn't make any sense not to make fun of a big. You know, it has to be the biggest star ever.
- [51:03]
Bob Odenkirk
Oh, my God.
- [51:04]
Al Franken
Also, you're so Tough. I mean, you do these action movies, so that's the funny thing, too. And Seagal's going, oh, oh, yeah.
- [51:14]
Bob Odenkirk
Oh, my God. Jay is great right there. He's the hero.
- [51:17]
Al Franken
Oh, my God, he saved my ass.
- [51:19]
Bob Odenkirk
Perfect. Really well done.
- [51:21]
Al Franken
And then right after that, and then he's going, oh, all right. Okay, we're back.
- [51:29]
Bob Odenkirk
That's a great one, man. I love that Leno's the hero.
- [51:33]
Al Franken
Oh, he was the hero. I'm just going like, that's brilliant. Okay, I want to ask you about when you were in the Post with David and Spielberg's directing this movie and you and David Cross are in it. Who are the co stars and writers, et cetera, of a cult thing that Spielberg doesn't know and you don't tell him, right?
- [51:58]
Bob Odenkirk
No, because we. No, because you want to be in.
- [52:02]
Al Franken
The Spielberg movie, and he might freak out. So then. But about two thirds of the way through the movie, someone goes like, wow.
- [52:09]
Bob Odenkirk
It'S Bob and Dave. Exactly.
- [52:13]
Al Franken
He figures it out and he goes and he says, do I have a problem?
- [52:19]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah, that's right.
- [52:20]
Al Franken
Oh, boy.
- [52:21]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah. We were. Not only were we in it together, but he kept putting us next to each other. And.
- [52:29]
Al Franken
So he had a wig, David had a wig.
- [52:32]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah, but we. We looked at each other and we would. Every time he would go, you, David, go stand there. Bob, go. Go stand there. You guys were walking through Bob, go, Go walk next to David. And we'd be like, all right. I think he's a fan of the show. I think he just wants a Mr. Show reunion in his movie. Okay, well, I don't want to say it, but that seems like what's happening. So then Zach Penn was there, and he's a screenwriter who loves Mr. Show and Friends of ours, and he had written Ready Player One. And they were working on it at the time, as well as Spielberg doing the post at the same time. And Zach was the one who. Behind the camera. Spielberg once again puts us together and you say, we're two thirds. We were about. We had finished almost all the major group scenes. We were done. We had one, maybe one more scene and he does this thing again where he goes, david, go stand closer to Bob. And Zach, out loud, goes, oh, my God, Bob and David. And that's when what you just said happens. Spielberg goes, what are you talking about? And he goes, they had a show. HBO, Bob and David, Mr. Show. They were on the show. It's the greatest. It's a funny sketch show. And then Spielberg goes, oh, do I have a problem? And then Zach said. I immediately told him, no, no, don't worry. It's a cult hit. Nobody knows it.
- [54:01]
Al Franken
We gotta go. But I wanna thank you for all your help when I was running for the Senate.
- [54:08]
Bob Odenkirk
Well, I gotta thank you for all your help. And I think I mentioned in the book that you helped me, and I mean it, Al. And so thank you for everything and your support all these years, and congratulations.
- [54:20]
Al Franken
Jesus Christ, look at your career. It's fab. I mean, and, boy, did you earn it. If you'll see in the book of your going through periods, like, really long periods, where nothing works, nothing happens. So I'm so happy for you, and I'm looking forward to the next Nobody.
- [54:38]
Bob Odenkirk
Thanks, man.
- [54:39]
Al Franken
And I'm looking forward to this season of Saul.
- [54:41]
Bob Odenkirk
Oh, I can't wait for people to see it, Al. It's gonna be great. I really love what they wrote. It was so good. I can't wait.
- [54:52]
Al Franken
Well, I hope you enjoyed listening. That beautiful music is by Leo Kotke. The great Leo Kotke. I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next week.