BEST OF: Ed Shelleby on Being My Senate Communications Director

Summary

Podcast Title: The Al Franken Podcast
Episode: BEST OF: Ed Shelleby on Being My Senate Communications Director
Release Date: May 25, 2025

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Introduction

In this special "Best Of" episode of The Al Franken Podcast, host Al Franken sits down with his former Communications Director and Deputy Chief of Staff, Ed Shelby. The episode provides an engaging and insightful look into the dynamics of Al's Senate office, highlighting memorable moments, challenges, and the camaraderie shared among the staff. Through a series of anecdotes and reflections, Ed and Al offer listeners a behind-the-scenes glimpse into the workings of a Senator's communications team.

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Reconnecting and Setting the Tone ([01:48] - [02:43])

Al introduces Ed Shelby, emphasizing the enjoyable nature of this particular episode compared to their usual political discussions. Both agree that this episode stands out as one of their best, showcasing the lighthearted and fun side of their professional relationship.

Notable Quote:

• Al Franken ([02:25]): "We listened to it again and I have to say this is by far one of the most enjoyable episodes of the 2000 that we've done."

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Discussing Legislative Challenges ([02:43] - [04:28])

Despite planning for a fun episode, the conversation briefly veers into current legislative issues. Ed highlights a significant bill passed by the House, which is projected to increase the deficit by $3.8 trillion over ten years and cut Medicaid for 8.6 million Americans.

Notable Quotes:

• Ed Shelby ([03:04]): "And it's going to cut 8.6 million Americans off of Medicaid."
• Al Franken ([03:57]): "Yeah. I don't know. This is such a fun, upbeat episode. I hate to spoil it."

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Ed Shelby's Role and Early Experiences ([04:28] - [07:08])

Al and Ed reminisce about Ed's journey from Press Secretary in 2010 to Communications Director and Deputy Chief of Staff over seven years. They reflect on the rigorous preparation for interviews and the unexpected moments that occasionally disrupted their plans.

Notable Quotes:

• Ed Shelby ([05:11]): "But thorough prep sessions to go over every possible eventuality of tough questions and things to avoid, if you'll recall."
• Al Franken ([06:45]): "He says, so you're endorsing Hillary? And I go, yeah, I guess I am."

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Memorable Interview Mishaps ([07:08] - [10:09])

One of the standout stories involves an interview with MSNBC's Ari Melber. Despite extensive preparation, Al unexpectedly endorsed Hillary Clinton during a reelection interview, leading to unintended media coverage.

Notable Quotes:

• Ed Shelby ([05:25]): "You surprised Ari Melbert. You mean you surprised the audience."
• Al Franken ([07:08]): "Yeah. Well, okay, sometimes, I mean, you guys, I will say you did a great job always preparing me."

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Managing Public Persona and Authenticity ([10:09] - [21:26])

Ed discusses Al's authentic and honest approach, which sometimes clashed with traditional political strategies. They share humorous anecdotes about Al's attempts (and occasional failures) to pivot during interviews and handle unexpected questions gracefully.

Notable Quotes:

• Al Franken ([07:27]): "But you weren't wearing with me during that first campaign."
• Ed Shelby ([11:43]): "The dehumorizer, yes. Your instinct always was to go for the joke, even if it was not in anybody's strategic interest."

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Fun Moments and Staff Camaraderie ([21:26] - [35:50])

The conversation shifts to lighter memories, including holiday parties, personalized gifts, and the close-knit nature of Al's Senate staff. Ed shares heartfelt stories about staff interactions, emphasizing the supportive and joyful environment in the office.

Notable Quotes:

• Ed Shelby ([34:12]): "And to Anthony come, which was so..."
• Al Franken ([35:27]): "Yeah. We were known as having one of the best staffs."

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Handling Media Relations and Public Appearances ([35:50] - [44:32])

Ed and Al recount various media-related incidents, including a humorous yet strategic appearance on the Today Show and a contentious Senate floor moment involving a provocative sign. These stories illustrate the balancing act between effective communication and maintaining personal authenticity.

Notable Quotes:

• Al Franken ([19:53]): "I silently made an amazingly strong point, which is the corn is really good."
• Ed Shelby ([42:25]): "It was a horrifying photo that Start Tribune the next day did not one, but two stories about."

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Personal Growth and Lessons Learned ([44:32] - [50:49])

Reflecting on their time together, Ed and Al discuss the personal growth Al experienced in managing public interactions and the importance of teamwork. They also touch on specific policy discussions, such as education reforms and mental health initiatives, highlighting Al's dedication to truth and integrity.

Notable Quotes:

• Al Franken ([44:58]): "I thought Micheal was the biggest sweetheart in the world."
• Ed Shelby ([47:13]): "He felt so bad. And the thing you said to him made him feel so much better."

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Closing Remarks and Fond Memories ([50:49] - End)

As the episode wraps up, Al and Ed express mutual appreciation for their time working together. They share nostalgic memories and emphasize the lasting friendships formed during their tenure in the Senate.

Notable Quotes:

• Al Franken ([50:36]): "I will say that was done without my..."
• Ed Shelby ([50:49]): "Thank you for having me. Loved working for you."

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Conclusion

This "Best Of" episode serves as a heartfelt tribute to the collaborative spirit and memorable moments shared between Al Franken and Ed Shelby. Through candid storytelling and humorous exchanges, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the personal and professional bonds that underpin effective political communication. Whether reminiscing about mishaps or celebrating successes, Al and Ed's conversation underscores the value of authenticity, teamwork, and resilience in the fast-paced world of politics.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Al Franken ([02:25]): "We listened to it again and I have to say this is by far one of the most enjoyable episodes of the 2000 that we've done."
• Ed Shelby ([03:04]): "And it's going to cut 8.6 million Americans off of Medicaid."
• Al Franken ([07:08]): "Yeah. Well, okay, sometimes, I mean, you guys, I will say you did a great job always preparing me."
• Ed Shelby ([05:25]): "You surprised Ari Melbert. You mean you surprised the audience."
• Al Franken ([19:53]): "I silently made an amazingly strong point, which is the corn is really good."
• Ed Shelby ([42:25]): "It was a horrifying photo that Start Tribune the next day did not one, but two stories about."

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Note: Advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections from the provided transcript have been omitted in compliance with the summary guidelines.

Transcript

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[Ed Shelby]

Hey everybody.

[Al Franken]

We got a Best of today. So you know this is a great one for a change. It's a fun one too. My former communications director and Deputy Chief of staff Ed Shelby joins me and you'll get a real sense of how much fun we had in my Senate office. I listened to it again and I have to say this is by far one of the most enjoyable episodes of the 2000 that we've done. That's just a rough guesstimate of 2000, but this is definitely one of the best we ever done. Wouldn't you say so, Peter?

[Peter Ogburn]

Oh, definitely.

[Al Franken]

How is it possible that we haven't aired this one as a best of?

[Peter Ogburn]

I honestly, I have no idea. This is one of the best, if not the best best of in the history of this podcast.

[Al Franken]

I would have to agree with you. It's so good. I say let's go right to it.

[Peter Ogburn]

Okay, but shouldn't we say something about the horrible bill that the House passed this week.

[Al Franken]

You mean the big beautiful bill that's going to increase the deficit by $3.8 trillion over 10 years?

[Peter Ogburn]

Yep, that's the one. And it's going to cut 8.6 million Americans off of Medicaid.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, that's horrible. And it gives a huge tax break to the richest Americans.

[Peter Ogburn]

That's right. Yeah. Those of the top 0.1% of earners would take home an additional $389,280.

[Al Franken]

Wow.

[Peter Ogburn]

So if you're making over $4 million a year, you're going to get an almost $400,000 tax break. Meanwhile, the Urban Institute found that the work requirements included in the bill would lead to 5.4 million people losing all or most of their SNAP benefits.

[Al Franken]

That's food stamps.

[Peter Ogburn]

Yes, that's right. And will cost the bottom fifth of Americans 2% of their income, according to.

[Al Franken]

The Congressional Budget Office.

[Peter Ogburn]

That's right. The Congressional Budget Office that the Republicans picked.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. I don't know. This is such a fun, upbeat episode. I hate to spoil it.

[Peter Ogburn]

I know what you mean.

[Al Franken]

We got a fun one today, you know, for a change. So you were my communications guy. What was your title?

[Ed Shelby]

Deputy chief of staff, but oversaw the communications team.

[Al Franken]

You were the deputy chief of staff.

[Ed Shelby]

Yep. You promoted me and you gave me a sizable raise when I got that promotion, too.

[Al Franken]

That was done without my.

[Ed Shelby]

Okay. Jeff did that? Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. Okay. Jeff's is chief of staff. Okay.

[Ed Shelby]

So. But yeah. I started with you as your press secretary in 2010 and then became your comms director and deputy Chief of staff and was there for seven years total. I worked for you for seven years?

[Al Franken]

Yeah. So you saw a lot of me and I saw a lot of you.

[Ed Shelby]

We traveled quite a bit together, too.

[Al Franken]

So because you're my communications director, how would you tell me to do this interview? What would you tell me? I didn't prepare you for that question.

[Ed Shelby]

But thorough prep sessions to go over every possible eventuality of tough questions and things to avoid, if you'll recall.

[Al Franken]

And did that always work?

[Ed Shelby]

Absolutely. You've never made a mistake in an interview. One time, it was flawless execution.

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[Ed Shelby]

My favorite one out there's. I mean, there's a lot to choose from, but from the. Of the things we did ample prep for and then just went off the rails were the MSNBC's Ari Milber. Do you remember this interview?

[Al Franken]

I do.

[Ed Shelby]

So you just won overwhelmingly your 2014 reelection by over 200,000 votes. Ari Melber wants to do a long sit down with you about the race and about your agenda. And it's just great. Sort of like, we're past this tough reelection. Do a sit down in the office. We do hours and hours of prep. The last thing we talk about is this is December of 2014. No one has announced they're running for president in 2016. But there's, like, chatter that Bernie may be getting in and Hillary's obviously probably getting him. And we do a, you know, you know, question. If he asks you about the presidential, just say, no one's in yet. And we're. I'm not in. You know, no one's in.

[Al Franken]

I don't remember that.

[Ed Shelby]

Okay, well, that's clear.

[Al Franken]

I certainly didn't when the question was asked. So I surprised you.

[Ed Shelby]

You surprised me. You surprised Ari Melbert. You mean you surprised the audience. So basically, Ari Melber asked some vague question about the presidential. You start thinking aloud and talking about, well, if Hillary runs, I'd probably endorse her. So, yeah, I think that's a good idea. Yeah. You know what I think about it? If you want to call this an endorsement, you can call this an endorsement.

[Al Franken]

Well, he says, so you're endorsing Hillary? And I go, yeah, I guess I am.

[Ed Shelby]

And we got the Huffington posted a story the next day, the headline of which was, Al Franken realizes Mid sentence he's endorsing Hillary Clinton for President.

[Al Franken]

Well, that's terrible communications work.

[Ed Shelby]

So congratulations. No, it was great communications work because we had prepared you for it, just didn't.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, well, okay, sometimes, I mean, you guys, I will say you did a great job always preparing me. I felt very prepared. And sometimes I. What was my problem?

[Ed Shelby]

You're too honest. You're too smart. I think part of the. I mean, we talked about this a little bit when you were writing John in the Senate, which was that you, I mean, you spent your career seeking truth and correcting people who were lying and all of that. And so it was difficult for you to have a coy answer or sort of like a politician y answer and things because somebody asked you a question.

[Al Franken]

There was no you would answer, which is a big mistake. But you weren't wearing with me during that first campaign. But they tried to teach me to pivot. And that's, you know, of course, you know, pivoting, but for the audience, that's when you're asked something and you don't answer it, but you pivot to something else. And I just couldn't get it, you know. And so, for example, I was very proud of myself when I'M in New Ulm, Minnesota, and there's a statue to Hermann the German, right? This is this Hun who defeated the Romans a long time ago. And I'm there, and I'm from St. Louis park, which is called St. Jewish park in Minnesota, and I'm under the statue of this huge statue of Herman the German. And I have. I'm very tempted to say, you know, in St. Louis park, we have Stu the Jew. And so I don't. And I go to my staff afterwards, just Macintosh, and I say, I didn't do this. She said, that's great.

[Ed Shelby]

Good for you.

[Al Franken]

And then. So then, like, someone from either New York Magazine or the New York Times or someone comes to watch the campaign, and, you know, I said, I have this problem. And I said, well, did you ever really internalize this and not telling jokes? I go, yes. And then I tell him the Stu. The Jew joke, and it's on the thing. And then Jess goes, like, why did you do that? And I go, I don't know. And then she taught me to pivot, and I took it really seriously because I realized I just didn't know. Then she set up an interview in which I pivoted so egregiously that I was just having fun. And at the end of the interview, the guy from the Strip said, I think he's got a real shot. So, I mean, that taught me a lot, but I still didn't do it. Great.

[Ed Shelby]

Listen, you gave great interviews. You were smart, thoughtful, the politician. Some of the characteristics you did not have. The thing we've talked about was when, if we were being hounded by crazy Fox News or Newsmax reporters in the halls of the Senate, and I would, you know, early on, I would hand you a phone to be like, oh, you've got a phone call. And you'd take the phone. There's nobody here. What do you mean? I'd say, like, oh, I think Casey needs to talk to you. Casey's not on the phone. What are you doing? There's nothing here. And just. What? You would not take the hint? Like, I'm trying to help you, man. I'm really trying to help you.

[Al Franken]

No, you're not. There's nobody on the phone. Yeah, I was kind of stupid, but then I learned. And then I just took the phone and I went, you know, good to talk to you, Mr. President. This is during Barack. Actually, at a certain point, it got so bad because I was always on the phone. I just didn't do national press. I just didn't do Press. So at one point I just, I was walking, I wasn't on the phone, I didn't have my phone handy. So I just went like this, which.

[Ed Shelby]

Is the phone, the phone like pinky.

[Al Franken]

Thumb at my mouth and my thumb on my ear. And I would say, I'm talking to somebody. And they appreciated that because they knew that everybody does that. You know, that's what you got with me. So you guys had to put me through dehumerizer lot.

[Ed Shelby]

The dehumorizer, yes. Your instinct always was to go for the joke, even if it was not in anybody's strategic interest or in service of past.

[Al Franken]

Maybe even, especially if it wasn't. No one in strategic interest. Well, on the first day I get sworn in, take the subway, go to my desk. And I learned one of your jobs is writing notes to constituents, a congratulatory note. And in Minnesota, most of those are some kind of curling award. But this one was Ruth Anderson was turning 110. So I have this note card to write to her. And I go, you have a bright future. And at that point, Drew Lippman was my chief staff. And my assistant comes and takes it out of the room and Drew's back in about 15 seconds. What is this? I say, it's a joke. Uh huh. Do you think Ruth Anderson will find it funny? And I go, like, I don't know, she's 110. And well, how about her son? Or, you know, her family? Will her son find it funny? And I go, oh, I see what you mean. Because I could see her 90 year old son reading this and getting mad. So I went, okay, I'll rewrite it. So that was day one. And I got better, I did, but.

[Ed Shelby]

I blew it sometimes, occasionally, just, I mean, do you remember the state fair? It was 2017, 2016, 2016 state fair. You were being profiled by the New York Times. Mark Leibovich came, great reporter, was traveling with us. He went, he came to D.C. he went with you to the convention in Cleveland, the Republican convention. We were in Minnesota. And that morning Anthony Weiner's like latest transgression, you know, had come out and Huma had announced that they were getting divorced. Did you remember this?

[Al Franken]

Yes.

[Ed Shelby]

And Mark Leibovich is tagging along with us throughout Minnesota. First stop of the day is to go to the new Viking stadium, which is gorgeous facility where tagging along with women of color who were like engineers who would help build the stadium.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. And also a lot of apprentice people had worked on the thing.

[Ed Shelby]

And we go to the Viking Stadium, walk on the field. It's great. We gotta go to the locker room.

[Al Franken]

And Leibovich is a huge, huge football fan. He wrote a book called Big Game. He's like. He's a huge, huge football player.

[Ed Shelby]

And all of us are just loving it. Cause it's such a cool thing to be in this brand new stadium. And then we go from the stadium to the state fair, which is.

[Al Franken]

He drives me, actually.

[Ed Shelby]

Oh, he. Okay, I didn't realize.

[Al Franken]

He drove me. He drove me. And we're in the car, and he's talking to me, and he tells me that earlier that morning he had done an interview on Anthony Weiner. And. Because he knew some. Some stuff, and he just hated it because he didn't want to be the expert or an expert on Anthony Weiner. So we talked a little bit about Anthony Weiner, and then we arrive at the Farmers Union booth or coffee booth, and my son calls me, and I answer the phone, and he tells me that Teddy Bridgewater, who was our first draft and this unbelievably talented quarterback, had. This is during training camp, had blown out his knee and may never play pro football and all our hopes. And this is my son, who's a Viking fanatic. And I'm just going, oh. Oh, no.

[Ed Shelby]

Oh.

[Al Franken]

And then Livovich goes, what happened? You know what happened. Like, oh. I tell him, and he goes like, well, what's that like for you? And then, stupidly.

[Ed Shelby]

I say, what you said. It's just as bad as if you found out Hillary was dating Anthony Weiner. And here we are on the day that Huma's announced her divorce with the New York Times reporter who has most frequently covered this after coming from the Viking stadium. And I'm. You know, you can't. In front of reporters like that. You can't say, like, what in the shit is wrong with you? Yeah.

[Al Franken]

It's like. It's as if the worst thing happened.

[Ed Shelby]

And so I try to keep a straight face, and I can't remember. I think I went and called. Called the Clinton campaign and said, like, you'll be receiving an apology shortly because. What? Leibovich. And totally understandably, he tweeted it. I mean, he just tweeted it out because he thought. You know, he told us he thought it was fun.

[Al Franken]

He had to. But he apologized to me later, you know, and it didn't help things, but ultimately it was fine. Now, other things at the fair.

[Ed Shelby]

Mm.

[Al Franken]

Oh, Jesus. Well, okay. One day. Now I love the corn at the fair. I just love. And I gotta tell You. Anybody who goes to the Minnesota. The Minnesota State Fair is great. Okay. And this year it'll be open, I'm sure. Okay. And their corn, their sweet corn is so good. I have been going there since I was a child. I never had a bad ear of corn. Never had an ear that wasn't fabulous. And I love the corn. I think I can't emphasize that enough. So I go to the booth, I get the corn, and we're just walking around. We see Al Roker with Andrew Zimmern. Right.

[Ed Shelby]

This is not correct. You're not doing the story correctly.

[Al Franken]

Well, correct me.

[Ed Shelby]

Can I share with you? So this is the first day of the store, the fair.

[Al Franken]

First. Okay. Did I say it wasn't?

[Ed Shelby]

I don't know what you said. But you didn't buy. They had the corn at the thing. Let me tell it. So you done Fox 9. You did Fox 9, their early show. So it's like 7am you go, you do the early show. We walk out, we see a huge crowd of people who is there on opening day to. To talk about the great state fair. But Al Roker, who is there with Andrew Zimmern, who. Famous chef.

[Al Franken]

Famous chef from Minnesota. Yeah.

[Ed Shelby]

And you know him from NBC days. So we.

[Al Franken]

Roker.

[Ed Shelby]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we say, like, let's see if we can, you know, maybe Al could get on because they're talking about all the state fair foods and where it comes from. And I mean, it's just perfect for you. So, commercial break. Should I say, like, oh, Al would love to join. They're like, great, we'll have Al on. You're the only person I know in the universe who can walk on to the Today show, invite yourself on as a. Just a impromptu guest. So you go in. So the three of you were talking about food. The first thing they get to is the corn. So there's corn they have there.

[Al Franken]

Okay.

[Ed Shelby]

And. And you.

[Al Franken]

That sounds right.

[Ed Shelby]

Somebody says like, oh, I think Al, you like, you take the corn. This is like a six minute segment where they're going through all of the different foods, right? Al Roker, Andrew Zimmern. And you say no words. All you do is just eat the corn. Is. Is. Is very gentle. Violently eating this corn on live television on the Today show for the entire.

[Al Franken]

Six minutes, savoring the corn. And I thought comedically, as a comedian, that that was the funniest thing I could do. This is from a communications director standpoint, you thought I should say something.

[Ed Shelby]

Typically, when they teach you media relations in school, they tell you it is best if you want to communicate a message to speak and not just to eat.

[Al Franken]

I saw you motioning me to speak. I saw that. I saw you.

[Ed Shelby]

This is giving. I mean, this is really triggering for me telling the story because this was the biggest missed media relations opportunity I've ever experienced.

[Al Franken]

But it wasn't. I was hilarious, if I do say so myself. I've seen the tape of it and what it is, is I made. I silently made an amazingly strong point, which is the corn is really good.

[Ed Shelby]

They bump. So they. Somebody. I think somebody tries to get you out of it to like say like. So Al, that corn looks pretty good to sort of like see if they can snap you out of the days that you experience with the corn. And you just look up and say. And then just keep. Then they bump back to the anchors who say, like, gosh, I think Al Franken just loves that corn or something like that. And I guess you're right. If that was the message you were trying to convey, was the single message that Al Franken lights corn. You did a spectacular job of that. That was a win.

[Al Franken]

I liked silent movies. I liked some of those. I liked Lauren Hardy. I liked Buster Keaton and I thought that I was in a silent movie.

[Ed Shelby]

Most viewers. It's been poll tested that most Today show viewers also love silent movies and wish there was less talking on the four hour morning talk show.

[Al Franken]

That used to be more the case when the Today show started in the.

[Ed Shelby]

50S, even though people spoke occasionally.

[Al Franken]

Okay, we'll just agree to disagree.

[Ed Shelby]

All of this is. Can we just say all of this is negative. Making fun of you, working for you was great. We had a great time in the office.

[Al Franken]

Oh, there's that.

[Ed Shelby]

It wasn't all missteps.

[Al Franken]

We had a great time, I will say. And because of that I had continuity. I had wonderful continuity. People didn't leave the office.

[Ed Shelby]

No, I mean your management team. Most of us were there, if not the entire time. The vast majority of the time you were in the Senate. We have still. The Franken family universe is really, really close. We still have. Remember the area of. Outside of your office we called the pit, which is where the scheduling team was, the communications team.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, it was in the. In the whole office was outside my.

[Ed Shelby]

It was outside your. Right. It was outside your personal. We still have a text chain called the Pit. Of all the people who worked there that share stories and articles and stuff. And it was great. It was such a fun.

[Al Franken]

Oh, I know a story to tell regarding the staff. The whole Staff. So I loved hearings. I love, love committee hearings. And as you know, I really prepared and I read everything. And we can talk a little bit about that Focus on the Family.

[Ed Shelby]

Let's talk about that one great organization.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. Okay. They're anti. They're a Christian, very right wing Christian organization and they're very anti gay.

[Ed Shelby]

Yeah, they're a horror show. They are a horror show. Or even over there.

[Al Franken]

Okay, so we're doing a thing on same sex or same sex. It's doma.

[Ed Shelby]

It's doma. I think it's on the Defense of Marriage Act.

[Al Franken]

Is it?

[Ed Shelby]

Okay, yeah, it's a hearing.

[Al Franken]

And this guy, what was his name? I can't remember.

[Ed Shelby]

Thomas Minnery.

[Al Franken]

Okay. He's testifying. So the night before, I would always get. This is in Judiciary, I believe. And I get my staff, the judiciary staff prepares a briefing book for me and it has the testimony. And I read his testimony and I spot something which is the Ninth Circuit had ruled, I think it overturned Prop 8 or something, which banned same gender marriage in California and they overruled it. And part of their finding was that same gender couples did just as well in child rearing. So he kind of has to acknowledge it, but just kind of brushes by it. And then as far away from that as he can, he says this Health and Human Services report said that married heterosexual couples do better.

[Ed Shelby]

At raising children.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, at raising children. That's the opposite of what the ninth Circuit had said. And I went like, okay, the reason he put these far apart from each other was he's lying. So I know that. And so I call, I think it was Josh Reilly. And I say, find this report and see what it says. Because I don't think it says what he says it says. And of course it didn't. It didn't at all. It just said married or couples that are together do better. And it didn't say anything about same sex or anything. Nothing like that.

[Ed Shelby]

The clip is on YouTube. If you just type in Focus on the Family. Al Franken. He doesn't look good, but it is the most satisfying thing.

[Al Franken]

Mr. Minnery, on page eight of your written testimony, you write, quote, children living in their own married, biological or adoptive mothers with their own married, biological and or adoptive mothers. And fathers were generally healthier and happier, had better access to health care, less likely to suffer mild or severe emotional problems, did better in school, were protected from physical, emotional and sexual abuse, and almost never live in poverty compared with children in any other family form. You cite a, a Department of Health and Human Services study that I have right here from December 2010 to support this conclusion. I checked the study out and I would like to enter it into the record, if I may. Objection. Sorted. And actually, it doesn't say what you said. It says. It says that nuclear families, not opposite sex married families, are associated with those positive outcomes. Isn't it true, Mr. Minnery, that a married same sex couple that has had or adopted kids would fall under the definition of a nuclear family in the study that you cite? I would think that the study, when it cites nuclear families, would mean a family headed by a husband and wife. It doesn't. So I have.

[Ed Shelby]

Can I share with you my first day in the office?

[Al Franken]

Your first day?

[Ed Shelby]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Okay.

[Ed Shelby]

Remember this story I told.

[Al Franken]

Oh, is this the fair also? The fair? Yeah.

[Ed Shelby]

Find out I get the job with you. I cannot be more excited. Longtime fan. Read the books, all of it, just so excited. You know, I called my parents and told them the first day I'm gonna work for you. I'm going out to Minnesota and it's gonna be at the fair. So this is the first day. So I fly out there, me and Mark Kimball, who I had actually, he was. He was our state cons guy, and he and I had worked together before. He's a wonderful guy. Yeah, he and I worked together before. He was at the Minnesota branch of the Children's Defense Fund and I was at the. The D.C. branch. The children. So we had. We had known each other for a while and worked. So he and I are staffing you. And at the fair, basically all of the radio stations almost throughout the state broadcast from there. They have these, these booths there. So we go to a radio station called K Fan, which is sports, and you're supposed to talk about the twins, sort of what you do because you're a longtime twins fan. And they share a booth with their sister station, which is a conservative talk radio station, kltk. And we are walking past the KLTK booth and some producer from their, like, right wing show that's on comes out and starts heckling you and grabbing his crotch and saying, be a man and come on the show. And instead of just walking past him and going to the show, you decided, yes, you should do. Yeah, you stopped and engaged him and you guys have some sort of back and forth. We then go to the K Fan interview. So you sit down. I'm already a little rattled like this. That was a lot of intensity. So we go to the cafe and you're supposed to be talking about the twins. The Twins. And they ask you about the Muslim cultural center that was being built close to the 911. And you get visibly frustrated. This is in front of a live audience, in addition to being on the radio. The producer who heckled you comes over and gets in line to ask a question. And before he gets to his question, you having had this interaction that no one else has seen, no one else has seen this interaction, kind of go after this guy, like, tell them where you work, tell them where. And no one's like, why? Why is he yelling at this man? So then we leave. The heckler guy comes, continues to heckle you. It's like the most chaotic thing I've been. It's my first day. We get to the car, and you said something very nonchalant, like, I don't think I like that, or something very, like, very. And I was like, oh, my God, what did I just do? What did I sign up for the next day? Ktlk, the conservative talk radio show, does a show and talks about this interaction and how once you come over and you won't do interviews on their station and all that, and calls me and Mark Kimball, who are both husky guys. He's like, refer to us as your doughboy handlers. And they were counting this insane. And their doughboy handlers whisked him away, and the doughboy handlers tried to get him to. And so we have that first day. We have the second day where I'm talking about on the radio. And then I have. I, like, go back to the hotel. And I remember I ordered a rum and Coke and called my mom and said, like, I'm not sure this was the best idea.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, that was a rough go.

[Ed Shelby]

I mean, you know, in fairness, he was a jerk. He was an asshole.

[Al Franken]

He was a real jerk. And sometimes. And I know you ignore a jerk, and that's what you do. And I think this is pretty early in.

[Ed Shelby]

Yeah, it's 2010.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. So just, you know, I think I learned, right. I didn't engage jerks. At least I did it a lower percentage of the time.

[Ed Shelby]

A lower percentage.

[Al Franken]

That's.

[Ed Shelby]

That's good. Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Okay, we're gonna take a little break. We'll be right back with Ed Shelby, my former communications director, Ed Shelby. We're back with Ed Shelby. So we had. We were on the road a lot, and sometimes we'd go to LA when I did a show.

[Ed Shelby]

Yeah, we did. We went to LA several times. Kimmel.

[Al Franken]

Kimmel.

[Ed Shelby]

Bill Maher.

[Al Franken]

Yep.

[Ed Shelby]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

And Carl Reiner was a friend of mine. And Carl was in his mid-90s, early to mid-90s at this time. So he lived in the flats of Beverly Hills and he was just. He didn't leave his 90s. So I would, whenever I was in LA, I'd just make sure I stopped by. And he's the sweetest and Right.

[Ed Shelby]

And he lived like around the corner from Mel Brooks and they went on daily walks together. Right. Wasn't that the thing they did together?

[Al Franken]

Yeah, and I had dinner with Mel. I had dinner with Mel Brooks and Carl Reiner and we talked about your show of shows, which was Sid Caesar's show. And oh my God, we had knockwurst and boiled potatoes and string beans. But wow, that was. It'll cherish that. But you came. So I brought you right.

[Ed Shelby]

A couple of times. And in fact, I mean it wasn't just me. You got whenever kind of was staffer was with you always, which was sort of really, really nice. And I think unusual would bring the staffer to whatever fun cool thing you were doing because I know like Jake Fonz, who was one of your fundraisers, got to go to Carl Reiner's house. I mean it was just such a. And to. And you'd go.

[Al Franken]

Part of it was that Carl was. Is the biggest sweetheart in the world.

[Ed Shelby]

But it was such a surreal experience to just sit. I mean it was just, you know, it was just checking in. You go to his house, we car around his house, he'd invite you. We went up to his like kind of his workstation living area. He kind of regale you with all these tweets, right. He'd show you the tweets he was really proud of recently and he was doing at the time. I think one of the times we went, he was writing a book or was movie posters of old movies and was like showing us all the posters he found. And then he had his book on the Dick Van Dyke show that he had just written and gave you a copy, signed it.

[Al Franken]

I love that show.

[Ed Shelby]

I love that. Well, that's. I mean that's one of the things that was so cool was I grew up with that with my parents, right. I mean we watched that on Nick at night and just. And just loved it. And I think I shared that with him and he said, well, I'll get you a book too. But the only copies he had were signed. So he plucked one out, crossed it out, the person's name said to Ed, you can tell them you're more important.

[Al Franken]

Than Joy to always funny.

[Ed Shelby]

I mean, so just. And Just could not have been nicer. So that was like one of my fondest memories because it was just. I mean, it was. It was incredible. I mean, remember that room we take, you know, sometimes you take a picture of the two of you and he. His room had like a thousand Emmys in it just lying on the wall.

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[Ed Shelby]

That wasn't. I mean, that was a really cool, amazing experience. And he was so, so incredibly kind. But the other l. A trip that I remember well is when you did. You did a segment on Bill Maher show and we're gonna go to dinner with him after, and him and Sarah Silverman. And you asked me like, do you have plans? And I was like, no, I'm probably gonna eat in the hotel. And you're like, why don't you come along? And I'm like, oh, that would be fun. I'm thinking it's gonna be 10 people and it's the three of you and me. It's Al Ranking, Sarah Silverman, Bill Maher and me. And it was just. I mean, it was. I mean, it was so fun. But that was so sweet of you to. I mean, to Anthony come, which was so.

[Al Franken]

Well, you're my friend.

[Ed Shelby]

Well, at the time you were paying. It was your staffer. You were paying me or the taxpayers were paying me. I'm sorry, the taxpayers.

[Al Franken]

I felt that you. I could pay you to be my. No, I mean, the staff. Everybody in the staff really became my friend.

[Ed Shelby]

Well, yeah, but I think that's really unusual. I don't think that's. I think that's unique on the Hill.

[Al Franken]

So I think with some. Some senators, it's also the case. But we really had a tight, tight group.

[Ed Shelby]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

And they did great work, I will say that. And we were known as having one of the best staffs.

[Ed Shelby]

Well, the other thing I remember is the holiday parties that you and Franny would throw, and you got everybody on the staff amazing gifts every year. And the one that I love the most was when they redid the Senate floor for the first time in like 100 years. You guys somehow got some of the wood. Do you remember this? From the Senate floor. Cut it into pieces and then laser etched, like Happy holidays to Ed Shelby from Al Franken with your, like, laser etched signature in this piece of the wood. I mean, it was just so cool.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. Well, you guys worked so hard and, you know.

[Ed Shelby]

Yeah, we did.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. And I appreciate it. That's pretty simple, you know. I mean. Yeah. So let's see. Have we. What, have we not covered anything that's it. We don't. That's it. That's all we have.

[Ed Shelby]

I have a couple other things. I have a couple other things which we'll see if this. You want this in there. But one of the things we had to deal with as a staff, which I did not anticipate, was the eating habits in front. In public.

[Al Franken]

Okay. You're talking about my habit of just eating anywhere, anytime.

[Ed Shelby]

It's more. Do you remember the. The show or the movie. Excuse me, the movie. The Miracle Worker with.

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[Ed Shelby]

Patty Duke.

[Al Franken]

Yes.

[Ed Shelby]

Do you remember the scene where she runs around the table banging on the table to get food? Yeah, that was. She looks like Grace Kelly compared to you in some of the situations of. Some of the. You can. Soup.

[Al Franken]

Oh, okay. You're talking about Maisie Hirono's party.

[Ed Shelby]

Yeah. So does that. The same.

[Al Franken]

Okay.

[Ed Shelby]

Maisie Hirono, Senator Hawaii, has an annual birthday party where she brings in traditional Hawaiian food. And she had a whole roast suckling pig, which you really liked. And what's the thing you like most about the skin is the skin?

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[Ed Shelby]

There's a whole animal sitting in the middle of the room. And Al is eating the skin, but he's eating not just any part of this. He's eating the face skin. Sort of a Hannibal Lectery kind of just peeling this face skin off of this whole pig and eating it from the face of the pig. And then they try to collect for the President, you know, for the program part of the thing. And the room separates. So there's all these senators, including leadership on one side. There's the rest of the group who's attending this. Dozens and dozens of people. And you in the center ripping pigskin.

[Al Franken]

I love.

[Ed Shelby]

And did the same thing that Al Roker did, which was like, al looks like you really enjoying the pig to kind of get you to snap out of it. And you were like, yep, it's delicious. There was that. It was also the one. This. And this was a strange setup, but do you remember when Patrick Kennedy, the congressman from. From Rhode island, retired and you had a relationship with him and he retired. And this was early, probably 2010 or, like, something. But when he retired, they had a big ceremony that you went to and just as a guest, because you liked him and.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. And we worked on mental health stuff.

[Ed Shelby]

Right. And they had this table of food again in the middle, and they had put, like, the hummus kind of just on the table. Like, it was not like in a bowl, but it was kind of. They just like, spread it on Like a big platter or something. But it was just this. So Nancy Pelosi is speaking, honoring Kennedy, and she motions to you to say, like, oh, and Al Franken is here. And at that particular moment, you had your finger dragging in the hummus to get a little taste. Just a little taste.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. I have to make a decision on whether to edit that. It certainly doesn't make me look good.

[Ed Shelby]

It was fun. It was innocuous. It was fine.

[Al Franken]

Okay, what else you got? Were you there when, you know, it's like take your kid to work day. Were you there at the event where. Okay, so all these staffers and everybody who works in the building brings their kids, and there was one room where, you know, they were having some reception or something, and there's all these kids there, and they're all very young, pretty young. So there must be like, there's 20 kids. And I say, okay, let's see if you guys can knock me over.

[Ed Shelby]

I don't think I was there for this.

[Al Franken]

Oh, yeah, that was so much fun because they couldn't knock me over. Then I faked it that they knocked me over and they were very happy.

[Ed Shelby]

Did you just tell that story so you could share with your audience how strong you are, that you couldn't be knocked over by a bunch of children, by little kids? They couldn't do it.

[Al Franken]

So I thought maybe you were there. Skip that.

[Ed Shelby]

Now, the one I was there for, the. The thing when you were talking about the dehumerizer, was the. The more important than you. More important than you going to the metal detectors?

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[Ed Shelby]

In the Senate, everyone who. Staff and visitors have to go through metal detectors and security screening. Senators do not. So they can walk through, and they can walk through with their staff. So they're with them around the. Around the security screening. And so when Al would do that, he would do it in the least conspicuous way by saying to everyone in line, I'm more important than you. I'm more important than you.

[Al Franken]

Which most people say, I'm. I just say more important than. More important than you. More important than you. More important than you.

[Ed Shelby]

Which, in fairness, everyone thought was hilarious. Right? Almost. But I think Casey, your. Your second chief of staff, Casey said to you, it's going to make it. You in trouble at some point.

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[Ed Shelby]

And it did.

[Al Franken]

Mark Teixeira, who was the first baseman for the Yankees at the time, was.

[Ed Shelby]

In the security line, unbeknownst to you.

[Al Franken]

He was there probably to do some lobby for something good, I'm sure a charity or something, but he Tweeted out Al Franken said he was more important.

[Ed Shelby]

Than me, and that was the end of that.

[Al Franken]

Oh, shit. Okay. Well, now it happened in case he was right. But it was worth it because especially if you get there, like at 9 in the morning and there's this huge line and everybody's trying to get in and it was brighten their day. I'd just go, more important than you. More important than you. Everybody thought it was funny because it was. Except that Tekshera found himself very, very important.

[Ed Shelby]

The other dehumerizer. Well, this wasn't a dehumerizer story, but this was the. Another media relations failure was the welcome terrorist sign. Start to finish was just not a great. A great day for our office. So the point was that I think this was during a potential. It was a government shutdown or something was about to happen. And one of the things that would have been affected was like border security.

[Al Franken]

Right?

[Ed Shelby]

You did a floor speech assailing Republicans over their decision to do this and talked about all the stuff that the government would not be doing, all the services they wouldn't be providing, including border security. And your great wisdom, you decided to make a giant sign that just said, welcome terrorists. This is what Republicans want. So you went to the floor with the sign that said, welcome terrorists, put it up next to you. And that was just a horrifying photo that Start Tribune the next day did not one, but two stories about. Was the most shared, most read, most downloaded loaded story of the day.

[Al Franken]

Did they say, like, there was context?

[Ed Shelby]

There was context in the story?

[Al Franken]

It's just the picture.

[Ed Shelby]

It just the photo was.

[Al Franken]

But are people actually saying Al Franken is sending a signal?

[Ed Shelby]

Have you met the American public?

[Al Franken]

There are some people in the American. Well, anyway, so that I, I was advised against it. I will say, oh, Betsy DeVos, great gal.

[Ed Shelby]

Oh, great gal. Kind of woman you'd want to get a glass of wine with and gab, talk about the Dancing with the Stars or something. Just my favorite.

[Al Franken]

You make her sound like the principal, like Joan Cusack in School of Rock.

[Ed Shelby]

I mean, that whole period was a very dark period when, after Trump had won, before he was inaugurated and just in the first couple of months after his inauguration, the parade of people who were coming in for meetings to do, like courtesy meetings for cabinet positions was just. It was just one horrible person after another. But DeVos was special. She didn't know a damn thing about anything about that. And she came in for the courtesy meeting, which before you go before the committee that's going to confirm you to move on to the position. You usually meet with the members just to talk about their priorities and all that. And she came in and talked to you and your experience with her?

[Al Franken]

Basically she had already had some. The courtesy meetings with my colleagues and the Democrats who I talked to who had met with her had said she doesn't know anything. So I got it in my head what I was going to ask her in the hearing and I decided I was going to just test that. Does she not actually not know anything? And it took me one or two questions to go, oh, okay. And then I just said, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna give away what I'm gonna ask her about. So I just started talking about her family and kids. And so what I was asked, what I ended up asking her about, of course was.

[Ed Shelby]

But in the hearing, you said nothing to her of substance incident.

[Al Franken]

What I was going to do.

[Ed Shelby]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

And I asked her the most basic educational policy question people have, which is growth versus proficiency. When you have to measure whether school's succeeding or not. You have accountability tests. You have tests. And do the tests measure proficiency? Does the third grader meet third grade proficiency? And this is what NCLB required to be measured?

[Ed Shelby]

Yeah. No child left behind your child, which.

[Al Franken]

Was what percentage of your kids meet proficiency? And that was dumb on so many levels because teachers just taught to the middle because the kid at the top, no matter what you did, that kid would beat proficiency and the kid at the bottom wasn't going to reach it. So that was perverse. And then also the tests didn't measure where you were. They just measured whether you're third grade profession. So I was a big growth. And basically we learned that growth was the way to go and not proficiency. But this was like every school board member in the country, every teacher, every principal, every parent who was paying attention knew this. And I asked her and she. That actually was picked up by Mike. That wasn't me making a sound effect. That was from the hearing.

[Ed Shelby]

Archived audio. Yeah, she. I mean, that, that hearing was. I mean, that was. Of the many hearings that you demonstrated the idiocy of the person in front of you, that was probably the biggest. I mean, that was just such a moment. And yet she served four years as Secretary of Education and did terrible things.

[Al Franken]

Yes. Yeah. And you know, and you say the parade of terrible people that came, they got actually, as the administration went on, some of the decent people left and were replaced by worse and worse and worse people till at the end, it was unbelievable.

[Ed Shelby]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Oh, My God. Thank God we won. Oh, man. Oh, man.

[Ed Shelby]

Oh, I do have one, but I have a. This isn't a direct Biden story, but it is a separate Biden. It's a tangential Biden story. This is a staff related. Do you remember when Andy Osborne screwed up the flights to Joan Mondale's funeral? You were so. I gotta tell it, but you were so gracious about it, but it was so, so terrible.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, well, I was somewhere on the East Coast.

[Ed Shelby]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

He just mixed up Central time and Eastern time.

[Ed Shelby]

Right. So what had happened was that he printed out your schedule for the day to give to you. When he hole punched it, one of the times was hole punch through, so you couldn't read it. So he reprinted it, but printed it in the wrong time zone. So you got your schedule, wrong time zone. You get to the airport, plane is left, plane's gone. Not gonna make it to Joe Mondale, who was the former second lady, who's a friend of Al's. Minnesota. All this. So Al has to call Biden on Air Force Two to be like, I'm supposed to be there. I'm not. Can you make sure people know that I'm not skipping her funeral? And Biden said something nice about you, and I think you got it first, kind of some of the.

[Al Franken]

After I got there at the end.

[Ed Shelby]

Yeah. But Andy, who was your bodyguard at the time, was just beside himself. The whole. I mean, he felt so bad. And the thing you said to him that made him feel so much better. Do you remember? This is what I said.

[Al Franken]

Something, I think we all make mistakes.

[Ed Shelby]

You said the thing that JFK said to McNamara, I think.

[Al Franken]

No, it was what someone said about McNamara. He was chairman of Ford.

[Ed Shelby]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

And it was. He doesn't make small mistakes.

[Ed Shelby]

And that's what you said to Andy. Like, I'm glad you don't make small mistakes. Which he just thought was great and made him feel so much better.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. I think that is such a fabulous quote. I mean, he doesn't make small mistakes is one of my favorite lines from history. No, that's. I mean, it was a small mistake, but, you know, I miss Joan Montale's funeral, but. And speaking of which, Fritz died just a little while ago, and my God, what a great.

[Ed Shelby]

I know.

[Al Franken]

Jesus. Lovely, lovely guy and strong, tough guy.

[Ed Shelby]

I mean, in Minnesota, he was. I mean, he was engaged in. Involved till the very end. I mean, he really, really was in it for the service and. And truly believed all this stuff.

[Al Franken]

And really funny.

[Ed Shelby]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

And just, you know, just a great guy. Just Hamish a guy. So that was part of the privilege of being centered. But I knew him from well before that and he also supported me. You know, he believed in me before other people thought I could win and stood by me when some people abandoned me. So I really, that was, you know. But he was 90. What? 93. Yeah. Okay. You know, no. Ruth Anderson. Oh, my God. Well, this has been, this has been so much fun.

[Ed Shelby]

Thank you for having me. Loved working for you. All of us loved working for you. It was such a, it was such a delight and so fun, you know.

[Al Franken]

Like it just right back at everybody on the staff and miss you, miss how much fun it was and the great stuff we accomplished. Well, thanks, Ed.

[Ed Shelby]

Yeah, thank you for having me.

[Al Franken]

Well, I hope you enjoyed listening. That beautiful music is by Leo Kottke, the great Leo Kottke. I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next week.

[Ed Shelby]

If you like the Al Franken podcast, you can listen to all episodes ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

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[Al Franken]

Thanks.

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