The Al Franken Podcast
Episode: David A. Graham on What Project 2025 Wrought
Guest: David A. Graham, The Atlantic
Date: December 21, 2025
Episode Overview
In this episode, Al Franken sits down with journalist and author David A. Graham to explore the impact of "Project 2025," a policy blueprint created by figures in and around Donald Trump's orbit and the conservative Heritage Foundation. Graham recently published a concise overview of the 920-page Project 2025 report, outlining how its recommendations have been adopted, reshaping the American government and society. The conversation delves into critical areas: federal workforce manipulation, executive overreach, Christian nationalism, justice, health care, immigration, climate, and foreign policy, all through the lens of Project 2025’s ongoing influence.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Background & Motivation of Project 2025
[16:55 – 20:29]
-
Franken applauds Graham for condensing the massive Project 2025 report into a 138-page book, calling it “a very complete summary” and notes its serious consequences:
“A lot of what the project's authors wrote...has been adopted and is in no small part responsible for the scary state of our country today.” (Host, 01:34)
-
First Trump Administration Failings:
Graham explains that even Trump allies considered his first term unsuccessful, with major promises left unfulfilled (wall, Obamacare repeal, tariffs, “drain the swamp,” etc).“Most of his political priorities in the first term had not happened. The wall hadn’t been built. Obamacare hadn’t been repealed...Nothing that he said he was going to do really had happened.” (David A. Graham, 17:44)
-
Deep State and Loyalty:
Project 2025 emerged from the belief the administration was "sabotaged" by disloyal staff and bureaucrats. Its drafters emphasize filtering out anyone not loyal to Trump and the new agenda."They give every outward sign of believing these things and I think they have a real bunker mentality that leads them to embrace crazy conspiracy theories like that." (David A. Graham, 19:11)
2. Project 2025 Structure & Preparation
[19:59 – 21:47]
-
Four-Pronged Plan:
- Detailed right-wing policy platform
- Extensive database of loyal potential staffers
- Online training courses
- Effort to build a “shadow administration” before even designating a candidate
“To build a database this big and...create a shadow administration before even there was a candidate is something that I don't think we've seen before.” (David A. Graham, 20:29)
-
The original Trump team was blindsided by their 2016 win, whereas Project 2025 represents a much higher level of planning.
3. Weaponizing and Restructuring the Federal Government
[22:04 – 27:12]
-
Federal Workforce 'Trauma':
Russell Vought, former OMB director and Project 2025 leader, aimed to “traumatize” civil servants, cut workforce, and centralize power in the executive branch.“One of the big successes of Project 2025 is to really demoralize federal workers, to put them out of their jobs legally if possible, but dubiously legally if not.” (David A. Graham, 22:36)
-
Expanding OMB Power:
Vote repurposes the OMB from administrative support to powerful political command center, managing personnel and enforcing loyalty."We're going to manage personnel, we're going to fire people. We're going to do all the hiring. And so we're going to create this power center, this political power center..." (David A. Graham, 24:04)
-
Shift in Constitutional Powers:
Project authors vacillate between arguing Congress ceded too much power to the executive and encouraging the president to seize even more control.
4. Executive Overreach & Impoundment
[25:16 – 26:13]
-
Trump has impounded billions appropriated by Congress, especially targeting blue districts—a practice both illegal and unconstitutional, yet ongoing.
“There's a law that Congress passed back in 1974 saying the president can't do that unless Congress agrees to it...the power of the purse sits with the Congress...this goes right around that.” (David A. Graham, 25:33)
-
The expectation is that Trump’s Supreme Court will side with him if challenged on impoundment legality.
5. The Rise of Christian Nationalism and Social Policy Rollbacks
[27:12 – 35:45]
-
Restoring “Traditional Family”:
Heritage Foundation president Kevin Roberts lays out a society centered on “the family as the centerpiece of American life,” defined rigidly as a man and wife."They want a biblical vision of the family. Most of the people involved are Christians. Many of them are white male Christians...Russell Vogt says I'm a Christian nationalist. I don't take that as an insult." (David A. Graham, 27:12)
-
Department of Justice as Political Arm:
Gene Hamilton (former DOJ architect of family separations) authored the DOJ section, explicitly rejecting its historical independence."He writes, the department falls under the direction...of the President...litigation must be made consistent with the president's agenda." (Host quoting, 32:48)
"Basically, don't use it as a political prosecution. Use it as a political arm of the White House." (David A. Graham, 33:03) -
Abortion and LGBTQ Rights:
Project 2025 seeks nationwide abortion ban, using 19th-century Comstock Act to ban mailing abortion pills, and proposes massive surveillance and cross-state prosecutions.“They have all these ways they want to use the federal government to try to sort of de facto ban abortion or make it harder.” (David A. Graham, 34:19)
Focus on “biblical-based family,” with social services routed through churches and traditional gender roles reimposed.
6. Education & Healthcare Rollback
[36:01 – 37:45]
-
Education privatization:
“They quote Hayek...the government should pay for schooling, but it shouldn't provide the schooling. Basically get the government out of the business and just be a check writer.” (David A. Graham, 36:09)
-
Push for vouchers, religious schooling, elimination of the Department of Education.
-
Healthcare: privatizing Medicare and the VA, cutting Medicaid—slow-motion dismantling of public health infrastructure.
7. Hardline Immigration Overhaul
[38:21 – 41:59]
- Ken Cuccinelli authors plan to abolish DHS, merging ICE and CBP into a singular, draconian border force, eliminating asylum, and stripping legal immigrants’ statuses.
“They’ve been very effective on taking away those statuses and making people who are in the country legally suddenly illegal...” (David A. Graham, 40:18)
- Project supports military use at the border, violating the Posse Comitatus Act, and advocates for “expedited removal”—deportations without hearings.
8. Economic Policy: Regressive Taxation & Gold Standard
[46:58 – 48:42]
-
Push for “flat tax” (practically), elimination of progressive taxation.
“For, I think, basically obvious reasons. People who make less money...get taxed much more on it. Whereas people who make more can save a lot more. And they save on taxes.” (David A. Graham, 47:54)
-
Reduce or abolish the Federal Reserve, with some even suggesting a return to the gold standard and bank-issued currency.
9. Other Notable Policy Measures
- Census Changes: Add citizenship question to undercount and underrepresent heavily immigrant (and often blue) areas.
- Climate Policy: Outright hostility to action, with intent to dismantle NOAA and privatize weather/climate data for corporate profit.
"It's partly ideological...opposition to climate change research, and it's partly...to privatize these things as a favor to major business interests..." (David A. Graham, 50:16)
- Energy: Expand drilling, lower fuel standards, oppose renewable energy.
- Foreign Policy:
- China as primary threat, replace Pentagon/State with ideological loyalists.
- Paradox: Report is pro-Ukraine (more hawkish than Trump).
- Expansion of armed forces to enable simultaneous two-front wars.
- Project authors call for a U.S.-led “global infrastructure spending program” to counter China, dripping with irony.
- Democratic Erosion:
-
Russ Vought’s apocalyptic rhetoric:
“We are in the late stages of a Marxist takeover of the country...” (Host quoting, 54:36)
-
Trump’s chilling promise:
"Just this time, you won’t have to do it anymore. Four more years...It will be fixed. It will be fine. You won’t have to vote anymore, my beautiful Christians." (Host quoting, 55:01)
-
Graham warns elections may persist—just with rigged rules:
“Dictators love elections. They want an election because it gives them the appearance of legitimacy. It makes it seem like they have a popular mandate...What you want to do is just make sure it’s not an election you can lose.” (David A. Graham, 56:19)
-
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On The Project’s Bunker Mentality and Loyalty Oaths:
“They give every outward sign of believing these things and I think they have a real bunker mentality that leads them to embrace crazy conspiracy theories like that.”
(David A. Graham, 19:11) -
On Executive Overreach and The Role of the Judiciary:
“He thinks impoundment is constitutional, and if they can just get the right case there, the Supreme Court will rule for them.”
(David A. Graham, 25:59) -
On Christian Nationalism:
“Russell Vogt says I'm a Christian nationalist. I don't take that as an insult. That's what I am. That's a good description for me.”
(David A. Graham, 27:12) -
Department of Justice Weaponization:
“Basically, don't use it as a political prosecution. Use it as a political arm of the White House.”
(David A. Graham, 33:03) -
On Privatizing American Education:
“They quote Hayek and they say the government should pay for schooling, but it shouldn't provide the schooling.”
(David A. Graham, 36:09) -
On Humane (or Inhumane) Immigration:
"They’ve been very effective on taking away those statuses and making people who are in the country legally suddenly illegal by taking away their status."
(David A. Graham, 40:18) -
On the Election of 2028:
“I think we will have an election...Dictators love elections. They want an election because it gives them the appearance of legitimacy...What you want to do is just make sure it's not an election you can lose.”
(David A. Graham, 56:19)
Important Timestamps
- 00:00 – 01:34: Adverts & Show Opening
- 01:34 – 16:31: Host’s monologue, tribute to Rob Reiner, satirical sketch with Meg Ryan & Rob Reiner
- 16:31: Start of substantive interview with David A. Graham
- 17:44: Trump's first term "failure" and Project 2025’s origins
- 22:36: Targeting the federal workforce & OMB’s expanded role
- 25:16: “Impoundment” – executive overreach in funding
- 27:12: Rise of Christian nationalism within policy
- 32:47: DOJ’s weaponization
- 34:19: Abortion and reproductive rights strategy
- 36:01: Destroying public K-12 education
- 37:45: Health care privatization
- 38:21: Immigration overhaul and cruelty as policy
- 46:58: Taxes, balanced budget, gold standard
- 49:17: Census tactics and immigration
- 49:56: Climate change and privatization of NOAA
- 50:59: Energy policy
- 51:46: Foreign policy, China, Ukraine, Defense
- 54:36: Democracy, election manipulation, Vought’s & Trump’s anti-democratic rhetoric
- 56:19: “Will there be an election in 2028?”
- 57:27: Closing comments
Tone Notes
- The conversation combines Franken’s sardonic, deadpan humor (“I know. The fuckers.”; 26:13) with Graham’s sober, fact-based analysis, yielding a brisk, biting, and urgent conversation.
- Franken’s extended Rob Reiner tribute and the comedic sketch serve as a buffer to the hard content, providing moments of levity.
Summary Takeaway
Project 2025 is not just a conservative wish list—it’s the roadmap for authoritarian consolidation already underway. David A. Graham’s analysis forcefully illustrates just how much has already changed in government function, social policy, and the rule of law, warning that unless checked, American democracy will persist in form, but not in substance: “Dictators love elections...just make sure it’s not an election you can lose.”
For listeners, this episode is an invaluable primer on both the scope of Project 2025 and the ongoing structural changes reshaping American governance—from the undermining of public institutions to the imposition of religious and ideological tests for federal employment, a radical reworking of civil rights, and a dangerous disregard for constitutional guardrails.