David A. Graham on What Project 2025 Wrought

Summary

The Al Franken Podcast

Episode: David A. Graham on What Project 2025 Wrought
Guest: David A. Graham, The Atlantic
Date: December 21, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Al Franken sits down with journalist and author David A. Graham to explore the impact of "Project 2025," a policy blueprint created by figures in and around Donald Trump's orbit and the conservative Heritage Foundation. Graham recently published a concise overview of the 920-page Project 2025 report, outlining how its recommendations have been adopted, reshaping the American government and society. The conversation delves into critical areas: federal workforce manipulation, executive overreach, Christian nationalism, justice, health care, immigration, climate, and foreign policy, all through the lens of Project 2025’s ongoing influence.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background & Motivation of Project 2025

[16:55 – 20:29]

• Franken applauds Graham for condensing the massive Project 2025 report into a 138-page book, calling it “a very complete summary” and notes its serious consequences:

  “A lot of what the project's authors wrote...has been adopted and is in no small part responsible for the scary state of our country today.” (Host, 01:34)

• First Trump Administration Failings:
  Graham explains that even Trump allies considered his first term unsuccessful, with major promises left unfulfilled (wall, Obamacare repeal, tariffs, “drain the swamp,” etc).

  “Most of his political priorities in the first term had not happened. The wall hadn’t been built. Obamacare hadn’t been repealed...Nothing that he said he was going to do really had happened.” (David A. Graham, 17:44)

• Deep State and Loyalty:
  Project 2025 emerged from the belief the administration was "sabotaged" by disloyal staff and bureaucrats. Its drafters emphasize filtering out anyone not loyal to Trump and the new agenda.

  "They give every outward sign of believing these things and I think they have a real bunker mentality that leads them to embrace crazy conspiracy theories like that." (David A. Graham, 19:11)

2. Project 2025 Structure & Preparation

[19:59 – 21:47]

• Four-Pronged Plan:

  1. Detailed right-wing policy platform
  2. Extensive database of loyal potential staffers
  3. Online training courses
  4. Effort to build a “shadow administration” before even designating a candidate

  “To build a database this big and...create a shadow administration before even there was a candidate is something that I don't think we've seen before.” (David A. Graham, 20:29)

• The original Trump team was blindsided by their 2016 win, whereas Project 2025 represents a much higher level of planning.

3. Weaponizing and Restructuring the Federal Government

[22:04 – 27:12]

• Federal Workforce 'Trauma':
  Russell Vought, former OMB director and Project 2025 leader, aimed to “traumatize” civil servants, cut workforce, and centralize power in the executive branch.

  “One of the big successes of Project 2025 is to really demoralize federal workers, to put them out of their jobs legally if possible, but dubiously legally if not.” (David A. Graham, 22:36)

• Expanding OMB Power:
  Vote repurposes the OMB from administrative support to powerful political command center, managing personnel and enforcing loyalty.

  "We're going to manage personnel, we're going to fire people. We're going to do all the hiring. And so we're going to create this power center, this political power center..." (David A. Graham, 24:04)

• Shift in Constitutional Powers:
  Project authors vacillate between arguing Congress ceded too much power to the executive and encouraging the president to seize even more control.

4. Executive Overreach & Impoundment

[25:16 – 26:13]

• Trump has impounded billions appropriated by Congress, especially targeting blue districts—a practice both illegal and unconstitutional, yet ongoing.

  “There's a law that Congress passed back in 1974 saying the president can't do that unless Congress agrees to it...the power of the purse sits with the Congress...this goes right around that.” (David A. Graham, 25:33)

• The expectation is that Trump’s Supreme Court will side with him if challenged on impoundment legality.

5. The Rise of Christian Nationalism and Social Policy Rollbacks

[27:12 – 35:45]

• Restoring “Traditional Family”:
  Heritage Foundation president Kevin Roberts lays out a society centered on “the family as the centerpiece of American life,” defined rigidly as a man and wife.

  "They want a biblical vision of the family. Most of the people involved are Christians. Many of them are white male Christians...Russell Vogt says I'm a Christian nationalist. I don't take that as an insult." (David A. Graham, 27:12)

• Department of Justice as Political Arm:
  Gene Hamilton (former DOJ architect of family separations) authored the DOJ section, explicitly rejecting its historical independence.

  "He writes, the department falls under the direction...of the President...litigation must be made consistent with the president's agenda." (Host quoting, 32:48)
  "Basically, don't use it as a political prosecution. Use it as a political arm of the White House." (David A. Graham, 33:03)

• Abortion and LGBTQ Rights:
  Project 2025 seeks nationwide abortion ban, using 19th-century Comstock Act to ban mailing abortion pills, and proposes massive surveillance and cross-state prosecutions.

  “They have all these ways they want to use the federal government to try to sort of de facto ban abortion or make it harder.” (David A. Graham, 34:19)
  Focus on “biblical-based family,” with social services routed through churches and traditional gender roles reimposed.

6. Education & Healthcare Rollback

[36:01 – 37:45]

• Education privatization:

  “They quote Hayek...the government should pay for schooling, but it shouldn't provide the schooling. Basically get the government out of the business and just be a check writer.” (David A. Graham, 36:09)

• Push for vouchers, religious schooling, elimination of the Department of Education.

• Healthcare: privatizing Medicare and the VA, cutting Medicaid—slow-motion dismantling of public health infrastructure.

7. Hardline Immigration Overhaul

[38:21 – 41:59]

• Ken Cuccinelli authors plan to abolish DHS, merging ICE and CBP into a singular, draconian border force, eliminating asylum, and stripping legal immigrants’ statuses.

  “They’ve been very effective on taking away those statuses and making people who are in the country legally suddenly illegal...” (David A. Graham, 40:18)

• Project supports military use at the border, violating the Posse Comitatus Act, and advocates for “expedited removal”—deportations without hearings.

8. Economic Policy: Regressive Taxation & Gold Standard

[46:58 – 48:42]

• Push for “flat tax” (practically), elimination of progressive taxation.

  “For, I think, basically obvious reasons. People who make less money...get taxed much more on it. Whereas people who make more can save a lot more. And they save on taxes.” (David A. Graham, 47:54)

• Reduce or abolish the Federal Reserve, with some even suggesting a return to the gold standard and bank-issued currency.

9. Other Notable Policy Measures

• Census Changes: Add citizenship question to undercount and underrepresent heavily immigrant (and often blue) areas.
• Climate Policy: Outright hostility to action, with intent to dismantle NOAA and privatize weather/climate data for corporate profit.

  "It's partly ideological...opposition to climate change research, and it's partly...to privatize these things as a favor to major business interests..." (David A. Graham, 50:16)

• Energy: Expand drilling, lower fuel standards, oppose renewable energy.
• Foreign Policy:
  • China as primary threat, replace Pentagon/State with ideological loyalists.
  • Paradox: Report is pro-Ukraine (more hawkish than Trump).
  • Expansion of armed forces to enable simultaneous two-front wars.
  • Project authors call for a U.S.-led “global infrastructure spending program” to counter China, dripping with irony.
• Democratic Erosion:

  • Russ Vought’s apocalyptic rhetoric:

    “We are in the late stages of a Marxist takeover of the country...” (Host quoting, 54:36)

  • Trump’s chilling promise:

    "Just this time, you won’t have to do it anymore. Four more years...It will be fixed. It will be fine. You won’t have to vote anymore, my beautiful Christians." (Host quoting, 55:01)

  • Graham warns elections may persist—just with rigged rules:

    “Dictators love elections. They want an election because it gives them the appearance of legitimacy. It makes it seem like they have a popular mandate...What you want to do is just make sure it’s not an election you can lose.” (David A. Graham, 56:19)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On The Project’s Bunker Mentality and Loyalty Oaths:

  “They give every outward sign of believing these things and I think they have a real bunker mentality that leads them to embrace crazy conspiracy theories like that.”
  (David A. Graham, 19:11)

• On Executive Overreach and The Role of the Judiciary:

  “He thinks impoundment is constitutional, and if they can just get the right case there, the Supreme Court will rule for them.”
  (David A. Graham, 25:59)

• On Christian Nationalism:

  “Russell Vogt says I'm a Christian nationalist. I don't take that as an insult. That's what I am. That's a good description for me.”
  (David A. Graham, 27:12)

• Department of Justice Weaponization:

  “Basically, don't use it as a political prosecution. Use it as a political arm of the White House.”
  (David A. Graham, 33:03)

• On Privatizing American Education:

  “They quote Hayek and they say the government should pay for schooling, but it shouldn't provide the schooling.”
  (David A. Graham, 36:09)

• On Humane (or Inhumane) Immigration:

  "They’ve been very effective on taking away those statuses and making people who are in the country legally suddenly illegal by taking away their status."
  (David A. Graham, 40:18)

• On the Election of 2028:

  “I think we will have an election...Dictators love elections. They want an election because it gives them the appearance of legitimacy...What you want to do is just make sure it's not an election you can lose.”
  (David A. Graham, 56:19)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00 – 01:34: Adverts & Show Opening
• 01:34 – 16:31: Host’s monologue, tribute to Rob Reiner, satirical sketch with Meg Ryan & Rob Reiner
• 16:31: Start of substantive interview with David A. Graham
• 17:44: Trump's first term "failure" and Project 2025’s origins
• 22:36: Targeting the federal workforce & OMB’s expanded role
• 25:16: “Impoundment” – executive overreach in funding
• 27:12: Rise of Christian nationalism within policy
• 32:47: DOJ’s weaponization
• 34:19: Abortion and reproductive rights strategy
• 36:01: Destroying public K-12 education
• 37:45: Health care privatization
• 38:21: Immigration overhaul and cruelty as policy
• 46:58: Taxes, balanced budget, gold standard
• 49:17: Census tactics and immigration
• 49:56: Climate change and privatization of NOAA
• 50:59: Energy policy
• 51:46: Foreign policy, China, Ukraine, Defense
• 54:36: Democracy, election manipulation, Vought’s & Trump’s anti-democratic rhetoric
• 56:19: “Will there be an election in 2028?”
• 57:27: Closing comments

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Tone Notes

• The conversation combines Franken’s sardonic, deadpan humor (“I know. The fuckers.”; 26:13) with Graham’s sober, fact-based analysis, yielding a brisk, biting, and urgent conversation.
• Franken’s extended Rob Reiner tribute and the comedic sketch serve as a buffer to the hard content, providing moments of levity.

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Summary Takeaway

Project 2025 is not just a conservative wish list—it’s the roadmap for authoritarian consolidation already underway. David A. Graham’s analysis forcefully illustrates just how much has already changed in government function, social policy, and the rule of law, warning that unless checked, American democracy will persist in form, but not in substance: “Dictators love elections...just make sure it’s not an election you can lose.”

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For listeners, this episode is an invaluable primer on both the scope of Project 2025 and the ongoing structural changes reshaping American governance—from the undermining of public institutions to the imposition of religious and ideological tests for federal employment, a radical reworking of civil rights, and a dangerous disregard for constitutional guardrails.

Transcript

[Al Franken]

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[David A. Graham]

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[David A. Graham]

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[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Hey everybody, we got a great one today, you know, for a change, David A. Graham of the Atlantic joins us on his book the project how Project 2025 is reshaping America. I can't say I enjoyed the book. A lot of what the project's authors wrote in their 920 page document has been adopted and is in no small part responsible for the scary state of our country today. But David has created a helpful guide that covers it all in just 138 pages. Immigration, Health care, the attack on our federal workforce, the corruption of the Justice Department, and in general, Trump's disregard for the norms that our nation's leaders have respected in the past. For example, he's impounded hundreds of billions of dollars in funding for projects that Congress has appropriated and has been signed into law, most for projects intended for blue districts around the country. But Trump and his Office of Management and Budget have withheld the funding Illegal, Sure. But Trump will go to his supreme court expecting a 63 vote. Well, it's been a terrible week. The shooting at Bondi beach in Australia targeting Jews, celebrating the first night of Hanukkah, the shooting at Brown University, and the unspeakable murder of my friends Rob and Michelle Reiner. I'd like to tell you a bit about Rob, who I known for 50 years. By now, you no doubt have heard a lot of tributes to Rob as a director, the extraordinary breadth of his body of work as an actor, including his eight brilliant years on all in the Family and as recently as this year on the Bear. The entertainment community who worked with him and all those who knew him loved Rob, and I did, too, and was lucky enough to consider him a friend. I first met Rob when He hosted the third Saturday Night Live back in 1975, when all in the Family was in its sixth season. After that, Rob came to see Tom Davis and me perform when we went back to LA to play the improv. And I knew he was a fan of Franken and Davis because he, he dragged Steve Martin to see us. After my time at snl, Rob guest starred as himself in my sitcom Lateline for an episode with with Martin Sheen and Vanessa Williams. I just rewatched the episode. Rob was great. And when I did my radio show on Air America, Rob was a frequent guest. Now, I had a rule that if showbiz people came on the show, they couldn't talk about politics. Rob was the exception. One of his passions, early childhood education, which he fought for to get funding for in California in 1998. And he won, passing Proposition 19, which funded programs for children 0 to 5. He was the real deal. And when Rob came on, we'd also do a comedy sketch usually. So I thought I'd play one of those for you. This is with Meg Ryan, who, of course, he directed in When Harry Met Sally. Now, there was a controversy at the time. Republican actors were complaining that they weren't getting cast because of their politics. So we had Meg play a registered Republican who is an aspiring actress. And you'll hear Rob come in about halfway through as a casting director. So he here's Meg Ryan and Rob Reiner on Air america from about 20 years ago. This is our show's first trip to Tinseltown. Republicans often complain about Hollywood. Conservatives claim it's so liberally biased that conservative actors and directors have trouble finding work.

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

Which brings us to our next guest. She is Republican actress Mary Beth Hollingsworth, and she says that she has been Discriminated against because she's a conservative in a left wing industry. Welcome to the show, Mary Beth. Thank you. Thank you. It's hard to believe I was invited on such a left wing show.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Well, it's glad. I'm very glad to have you with us, Mary Beth. Now, you claim that your career as an actress has actually been hurt here because you are a registered Republican.

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

That's right. I have been repeatedly denied parts, not because of my acting skills, but because of my political beliefs.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Now, let's just establish you are a professional actress.

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

Absolutely. I was in the motion picture in Humanoid.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

All right, now, I gotta say, I don't remember that one.

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

Well, it went straight to video. But I had a speaking part. And I understand you were in Silence of the Lambs. As a corpse, A victim. Oh, sorry. And, you know, you'd think that working for a director like Jonathan Demme would lead to more roles, but because word got out that Mary Beth Hollingsworth wouldn't toe the line on the liberal Hollywood agenda, I have been effectively blackballed in what otherwise would have been the peak of my career. Wow, blackballed. That's a strong word. Tell us what you mean by that. Well. Well, I'll just give you a for instance. A few years ago, I read for the part of Erin Brockovich, you know who they gave that to?

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Julia.

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

Not Mary Beth Hollingsworth. No, they gave it to the liberal Julia Roberts. Well, Julia Roberts is a major star. Exactly. Because she's a liberal. And evidently they didn't want to give the part to someone who holds conservative views on issues like tort reform.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Well, the film was about suing a corporation, and the heroine leads the lawsuit.

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

Listen, I'm an actress, okay? I think I know how to play the part of someone who isn't me. That's what acting is.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Okay. Okay, but did you. Did you tell the director or casting director that you were for tort reform?

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

Are you kidding? And shoot myself in the foot? I know how the game is played. Well, did the director or the casting director say anything about your politics? Well, not to me. Okay. But they made things very clear to my agent.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Okay, so you're saying they told your agent that you didn't get the part of Aaron Brockovich because you're a Republican?

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

Well, I mean, basically, they didn't come out and say it. They used code words. Code words? Like what? Well, you know, all the usual crap. She's not right for the part. I don't think she's a good fit. She can't act her way out of a paper bag.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Okay, hold on. Say that third one again.

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

She can't act her way out of a paper bag. It's their way of saying she didn't get the part because she's not one of us. It's obviously code. They all got the memo because my agent hears it all the time. She can't act her way out of a paper bag.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Huh? Huh? Okay, now, Mary Beth, we have a special surprise for you because you're joining us because. I'm sorry. Because you're here. And joining us is a very special guest. He's Joel Shapiro, a casting director at Universal Studios, who, you'll be delighted to hear, is actually a registered Republican himself. Come on out, Joel.

[Joel Shapiro]

Okay.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Thank you for being here, Joel.

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

Oh, I get it. I get it. I get it. I would have expected as much from Al Franken. You're messing with me. This guy isn't a Republican. How could he be? He works in Hollywood. Yeah, actually, Mary Beth, Joel worked on the Schwarzenegger campaign, and he donated $2,000.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

To Bush Cheney 04. And as it so happens, Joel is casting a movie right now that would be very close to your heart.

[Joel Shapiro]

Yeah. It's about an actress in Hollywood who's having trouble getting work because of her right wing politics. And we're actually looking for someone unknown to play the part. You'd be perfect.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

So this is a great opportunity for you, Mary Beth. Joel wants you to audition for the lead role right here and now.

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

I haven't really had any time to study the script.

[Joel Shapiro]

Yeah, but this is right in your wheelhouse. I mean, I know you're going to hit this one right out of the park.

[Al Franken]

Wow.

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

And it does sound like a great movie. This could be a real hit, you know. All right. Why not? Let's do it.

[Joel Shapiro]

Okay.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Here you go.

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

Thank you.

[Joel Shapiro]

Now, Mary Beth, you play Melissa. You've just been turned down by yet another casting director because you're a Republican. And Al, you play the sympathetic but unsentimental agent Jerry. Okay. All right. Ready?

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

Okay, I guess. So.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Melissa, I just heard from Spielberg. You said you couldn't act your way out of a paper bag.

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

But I need this job. This is the part of a lifetime. This is the part I have been waiting for.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Hmm.

[Joel Shapiro]

You know, maybe you're not such a good fit for this part.

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

Oh, but I need this job. This is the part of a lifetime. This is the part I've been waiting for. Ooh.

[Joel Shapiro]

Wait a minute. Wait a minute. What you just did. Let's give that another shot. All right. Alright.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Sure. Yeah, that sounded okay. Melissa, I just heard from Spielberg. He said you couldn't act your way out of a paper bag.

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

But I need this job. This is the part of a lifetime. This is the part I have been waiting for.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Wow.

[Joel Shapiro]

I'm just not convinced.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Oh, but I need this job.

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

This is the part of a lifetime. This is the part I have been waiting for.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Come on, why don't we, why don't we give her one?

[Rocket Money Advertiser]

Come on.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

More chance.

[Joel Shapiro]

All right, all right, all right, all right. Now. Okay, now this time I want you to put a little desperation in there. You know, you really need this job.

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

Oh.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Okay.

[Joel Shapiro]

Right.

[David A. Graham]

All right.

[Joel Shapiro]

Okay.

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

I got it.

[Joel Shapiro]

Desperation.

[David A. Graham]

I got it.

[Joel Shapiro]

Desperation.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Go.

[Al Franken]

Okay.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Melissa, I just heard from Spielberg. He said you couldn't act your way out of a paper bag.

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

But I need this job. This is the part of a lifetime. This is the part I have been waiting for.

[Joel Shapiro]

You know, I've never said this to an actor before, but you can't act your way out of a paper bag. You're the worst actress I've ever seen.

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

Oh, I see. I was right. This was a setup. Humiliate the Republican. Well, I got news for you. Starting tomorrow, I am launching a class action suit against Paramount, Universal, Warner Bros. Disney and Steven Spielberg. I will see you all in court.

[Joel Shapiro]

Wait. You know, I do have a non speaking part for a corpse that she'd be perfect for. Mary Beth, come back. Mary Beth, come back.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Mary Beth. Mary Beth. Oh. Meg Ryan, ladies and gentlemen. And Rob Reiner, ladies and gentlemen. Huh? That was. That was 20 years ago, but Republicans in Hollywood are still making the same complaint. Rob always encouraged me to get into politics and when I did, he and Michelle were big supporters and I was always so touched by that. Franny and I had dinner with Rob and Michelle just before he was starting the Spinal Tap sequel which came out this year. We talked politics, of course, and about how they were going to spend more time traveling abroad. We had a lot of laughs. Of course. Rob was a giant in the industry and not just because of the many classic films that he directed, but because of the loving, supportive, passionate, hilarious man he was. Rob was funny and fun and, and deeply kind and committed politically and a supportive friend. I have to comment on Trump's response to this unspeakable tragedy. He posted on Truth Social that Robin Michelle passed away because due to the anger he, Rob caused others through his massive, unyielding and incurable affliction with a mind crippling disease known as Trump derangement syndrome. We know that Trump is sick, but this sick Trump made this horrific, heartbreaking tragedy about himself. This is a new low. Americans loved Rob because of the wonderful movies he directed. Princess Bride, When Harry Met Sally, Stand By Me, Misery and On and On. And a number of prominent Republicans spoke out. Until recently, I've been skeptical about all this Democratic optimism about the midterms. It's too far away, I thought. But I think Trump is deteriorating. What he said was not just crazy, it is over the top cruel. We've seen that. A lot of Americans like that, but not enough. His numbers are down and continue to go down. And Trump is hurting Americans with his Project 2025 backed policies. Let's hear more about that from David A. Graham. We've got a great one today. You know, for a change.

[David A. Graham]

Can I also just say before we start, I think that Rush Limpaugh is a Big Fat Idiot was the first real political book that I ever read.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Oh really?

[David A. Graham]

It was sitting around my parents house and I picked up because it had a catchy title and I loved it. So.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Oh, I got you into this. Maybe.

[David A. Graham]

Sorry, you're the guy to blame.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Yeah, yeah. Well, thanks for joining us, David.

[David A. Graham]

Thank you for having me.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

So I want to talk about your book, the project how Project 2025 is reshaping America. This is a very complete summary of the 920 page project 2025 in 138 pages, which I can't say exactly that I enjoyed. Fair, but I don't think that was the goal here. So I want to talk about what Project 2025 laid out and what was adopted from it and how that's changed the federal government. You start the book by saying that the first Trump administration was considered a failure. What did you, what did you mean by that?

[David A. Graham]

You know, if you go back to, let's say, you know, January 21, 2021, we had this moment where not only was Trump disgraced, you know, unceremoniously tossed out of office after January 6, he'd lost the election by a pretty decent margin. Even people around him thought he hadn't gotten things done. Most of his political priorities in the first term had not happened. The wall hadn't been built. Obamacare hadn't been repealed and replaced.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Really.

[David A. Graham]

You know, there were no tariffs. Nothing that he said he was going to do really had happened. Yeah, he didn't make America great again. He didn't drain the swamp.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

But the authors of the book thought that, that he had been what, sabotaged.

[David A. Graham]

Right So, I mean, these guys saw from. Mostly from the inside of the administration. They felt like there were people who had been out to stop Trump, and that was civil servants, you know, bureaucrats and the deep state, but it was also the political appointees around Trump. You know, they saw people. Exactly. You know, and I mean, you know, H.R. mcMaster, even Mnuchin, like all of these people who had even talked about 25th amendment or who they thought had been too busy to defend, too. Too eager to defend the Constitution.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

So. And they thought some of the authors, or maybe all the authors. But you say that they thought the election had been stolen, which is crazy.

[David A. Graham]

Yes. I think it's hard. I mean, with some of these folks, I think it's hard to tell. And people have challenged me on this, like, what's a sincere belief when it comes to that? Because it's so crazy. But they give every outward sign of believing these things, and I think they have a real bunker mentality that leads them to embrace crazy conspiracy theories like that.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

So much of the report's emphasis is on hiring workers who will be loyal to Trump and will do pretty much whatever he wants. When applying for jobs, did they have to answer the question, who won the 2020 election?

[David A. Graham]

The administration has asked that of a lot of people. I don't know if it's standard for everyone, but it's been very common. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

You write that the authors of Project 2025 designed a four prong plan. Okay. A detailed policy platform, a huge database of potential staffers, training courses. There were 30 online videos running. 30 to 90. Did you watch any of these? Were you able to?

[David A. Graham]

I watched a few of them. They're not.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

I bet. Had this been done previously in this granularity in preparation of a new administration?

[David A. Graham]

No. I mean, you know, there are bits and pieces of this. You've gotten sort of policy papers before administrations, and you've had think tanks that have helped to staff an administration. But to build a database this big and to take it upon themselves to basically, like, create a shadow administration before even there was a candidate is something that I don't think we've seen before.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

So Trump. You write that Trump didn't do this in his first term. You write that he didn't expect to win. Is this common knowledge? I didn't.

[David A. Graham]

I don't know how common it is. But if you go back, there's a bunch of really good reporting from right after the election. I mean, even with people in the. At the victory party with him, as they kind of realize, oh, no, we're going to win. We have to do something.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Now, he looked like that the first time he met with Obama the next day, or whatever that was during the Democratic convention. Democrats held up a big overblown copy of the report and Trump claimed he knew nothing about it. But he was lying, right?

[David A. Graham]

Yes.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

So there are a lot of authors. How many authors, how many people wrote for the. For Project 2021?

[David A. Graham]

So there are chapters written by individuals, and then there's also a list of contributors who helped on those. So we're looking at 70 some people altogether involved.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

And three quarters of them worked. Had worked for the Trump. First Trump administration, I believe.

[David A. Graham]

That's right. If that's what I wrote. That's right.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

That's what you wrote in the book.

[David A. Graham]

I was trying to remember.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Okay, now let's talk about Russell Boat. I find him really interesting. He was head of OMB at the end of the first Trump administration. Now head of the OMB, he said this, not in Project 2025, but in a podcast, that he wants the federal workforce in trauma. And he's been very successful, right?

[David A. Graham]

Yeah, he set out to do it. And I think that's one of the big Successes of Project 2025 is to really demoralize federal workers, to put them out of their jobs legally if possible, but dubiously legally if not.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Let me ask you a workforce question, and it pertains to doge, which obviously in this term, which had headed by Elon Musk. Trump said recently that he's going to disband doge. Now, is he disbanding DOGE because it accomplished what it needed or because it was a failure?

[David A. Graham]

I think the question is whether you believe what they said. If the goal was to create government efficiency, it was a miserable failure. Federal spending has gone up. The government is less efficient.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Are there more or less federal employees now?

[David A. Graham]

I think there are fewer federal employees, but spending has gone up. Things, I mean, and they're employees who create efficiency.

[Al Franken]

Right.

[David A. Graham]

So it's sort of cutting off your nose to spite your face. But if the goal was to traumatize the workforce and to close a bunch of departments and end a lot of research, I think it's been a success along those terms.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Now, Vote really sees OMB as playing a more powerful role in this administration. How has he been increasing OMB's role in this in the past 11 months?

[David A. Graham]

I think he's using powers that always kind of existed there. And that's one of part of his kind of cleverness. He looked at OMB and saw previous OMB directors who were mostly sort of trying to make the government work better and trying to take things from departments, route them to the White House and back and forth. And his idea is, no, no, we just need to use this to get our political goals done. So we're going to tell the departments what to do. I mean, they're kind of creating their own deep state, ironically. We're going to tell the departments what to do. We're going to manage personnel, we're going to fire people. We're going to do all the hiring. And so we're going to create this power center, this political power center, where once this was effectively an administrative function.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

I was surprised that vote, you say he wrote in the. In Project 2025 that Congress had abrogated too much power to the executive branch. But others write the opposite, that they want the president to have more power. But see, and it seems that voters change his mind.

[David A. Graham]

Yeah. Or they agree that, like, Congress hasn't done enough, but rather than want to help, that they're like, well, great, so the president should take advantage of this.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Okay, now I want to talk about impoundment.

[David A. Graham]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Okay. Which is when the president cancels funding that's been passed by Congress and very often signed in the law.

[David A. Graham]

Right, Right, exactly.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Yeah. And that's unconstitutional to impound it to get. To cancel that funding. Right.

[David A. Graham]

Well, it's certainly illegal. There's a law that Congress passed back in 1974 saying that the president can't do that unless Congress agrees to it. But you can't just do that. I mean it. And I think the reason is the Constitution. Like, obviously, the power of the purse sits with the Congress, and this goes right around that.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

But he does it anyway. And you write that he wants to go to the Supreme Court where he thinks he'll win, that they'll reverse the law.

[David A. Graham]

Yeah. He thinks impoundment is constitutional, and if they can just get the right case there, the Supreme Court will rule for them.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

And what do you think the Supreme Court will do?

[David A. Graham]

I mean, it's hard to bet against that. I've been watching the Supreme Court.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

I know. The fuckers. The fuckers. Okay. Kevin Roberts, who's head of the Heritage foundation, laid out four goals, and I was struck by the emphasis on traditional family and God in the whole report. In the report, he says, restore the family as the centerpiece of American life. And by that, he meant a family of the man and wife. Right. Not. No. Transgender. No gay marriages. Okay, that was one. Okay. Dismantle the administrative state which is what we've been talking about. Defend our nation's sovereignty, borders and bounty. Bounty against global threats. And that we'll get into like what their foreign policy stuff was. Secure our God given individual rights to live free. There's a lot of God in this thing, right? Yeah, I think that's this a Christian God mainly.

[David A. Graham]

Oh, very much so. They make room for sort of, you know, the Judeo Christian idea, but it's very much a Christian God. They want a biblical vision of the family. Most of the people involved are Christians. Many of them are white male Christians. And that's the kind of Christian nationalist. I mean, Russell Vogt says I'm a Christian nationalist. I don't take that as an insult. That's what I am. That's a good description for me.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

All right, we're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back with David Graham. If you're buying gifts for everyone else this season, maybe it's time to get yourself something you'll actually use. Like a mattress that helps you sleep better. I love to sleep. I love to get a good seven to nine hours every night. And I found out what really helps is a good bed with good sheets and a good pillow. And there's enough in the world to keep you up at night. Your bedding shouldn't be one of them. That's why I'd like to tell you about Ghostbed. Ghostbed is a family run company focused on quality and comfort and cooling, all in an effort to help people like you and me sleep better. Their mattresses are made from premium materials to help regulate temperature throughout the night so that you don't wake up overheated. And they're built to last. Backed by a 20 to 25 year warranty. You also get 100 one night sleep trial to make sure that it's the right fit for you. And here is the best part. Ghostbed mattresses cost up to 50% less than comparable brands, so you're getting real quality at a fair price. I've gotten to check out their great bedding. The Ghost sheets are made of Supima cotton with Tencel fibers specially designed to keep you cool at night while also prioritizing durability and resisting allergens and bacteria growth. The Ghost pillow is a memory foam pillow that promotes cooling. Plus right now, during Ghostbed's Cyber Monday sale, you'll get 25% off site wide. For a limited time, just go to ghostbed.com Franken and use promo code Franken at checkout. That's ghostbed.com Franken promo code Franken Upgrade your sleep with Ghostbed, the makers of the coolest beds in the world. You know, when you're old like me, you're a target for cybercrime scams and identity theft. But then again, everybody is. Especially during the holidays when cybercrime spikes. That's why it's more important than ever to have Webroot. Webroot's total protection is an all in one product with plan options for individuals and families. They provide antivirus protection, identity protection, VPNs, backups, and more. That's a lot of stuff. Antivirus protection stops emerging threats like malware, ransomware, phishing and scams. It also includes a password manager to protect your logins. Webroot's identity protection includes up to $1 million in expense reimbursement for stolen funds due to identity theft. They monitor the dark web. Ooh, scary. And credit and financial monitoring. Plus you can set up a VPN that's virtual private network for up to 10 devices, which means you can hide your IP address, personal data and location from hackers. Webroot has been protecting customers for over 25 years with a 90% retention rate. That's because of their lightning fast scans and 24. 7 US based customer support. And it's up to you who to protect. For multi device and multi identity plans, you choose who you share protection with. From family to friends. Protect yourself and your family from cybercrime. This holiday season with 75% off Webroot total [e-mail] Franken. That's 75% off for a limited time, but only with my exclusive [e-mail] Franken with my exclusive discount, Webroot total protection is less than $50 for a year. Wow. That's all in one device. Identity privacy and backup protection for $50. Peace of mind for $50. Talk about the best gift you can give yourself or your loved ones. And we're back with David Graham. Okay, let's go into what right about issues. Department of Justice. This is written by Gene Hamilton. Okay, that section. And he worked in DOJ in the first Trump administration, was the architect of separating families at the southern border. So a perfect choice. Now, the Department of Justice historically is supposed to have some independence from the President, correct? Yeah, but Hamilton makes no pretense of that.

[David A. Graham]

Exactly.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

I quote, he writes, the department falls under the direction, supervision and control of the President of the United States as a component of the executive branch. He goes on to say, litigation must be made consistent with the president's agenda.

[David A. Graham]

Right. So basically, don't use it as a political prosecution. Use it as a. As a political arm of the White House.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

And we've seen that. And we've seen that all over Comey and Comey James.

[David A. Graham]

All of that.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Yep, all that. And so they're going to indict enemies, right? It's retribution.

[David A. Graham]

Yes.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

I mean, he said it would be. He said what he was going to do. And this is autocracy, right? Yeah.

[David A. Graham]

I mean, it's all tied up with the impoundments of. I mean, all of this is designed. Anything that goes on within the executive branch, they want control over. They don't think anyone should be able to check it. And they think they're the final.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

And they want to shake down law firms and colleges and universities and media companies. It's a really dangerous time.

[David A. Graham]

Yep, Yep.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Okay. Abortion. Well, of course, there's a section on abortion and sex ed and LGBT rights section. They come down pretty much where you might expect banning abortion in all 50 states. But the Supreme Court has ruled that it's just each state makes. So that's not going to change. Right, okay.

[David A. Graham]

But they have all these ways they want to use the federal government to try to sort of de facto ban abortion or make it harder. So one of those is using the Comstock act, which is an 1870s law, to keep the mailing of abortion drugs, Abortion pills. Right, exactly. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Mifepristone.

[David A. Graham]

Right. And they also want to basically have a massive surveillance structure to keep so that states have to report information so that the federal government can track it and allow things like, you know, cross state prosecutions.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Wow. Okay. Well, is that going to happen? I mean, is Trump following up on that or is the administration?

[David A. Graham]

So far, no. I mean, I think this is one of these things where Trump doesn't see a political upside to doing it. But I also think, you know, to your point about there's so much God, this is something that's really important to the authors. So I don't think it's something they're going to let go of easily.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Okay.

[David A. Graham]

It's working in the background, you know.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

And you say there's also a very much Christian emphasis and they seem to be very much on board with traditional family. And mom stays right at home.

[David A. Graham]

Right. Mom stays at home. Dad is the breadwinner. Services are provided through churches. Welfare is dependent on lessons in the biblical based family. Really integrating God into all of these government services.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Okay, well, speaking of God, let's talk about education. You write somebody who wrote in this wanted to end public schooling as we know it. Who was that? You remember?

[David A. Graham]

I think it's all of them.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

You read every page of this book.

[Joel Shapiro]

I did.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Right. You had 920 pages. You read every page.

[David A. Graham]

I mean, the idea is that they quote Hayek and they say the government should pay for schooling, but it shouldn't provide the schooling. Basically get the government out of the business and just be a check writer.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Okay, so that would be that it provides the funding, but religious school, it could go. The funding can go to religious schools and private schools and people can get vouchers or whatever. That works.

[David A. Graham]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Okay. Meanwhile, Trump is trying to eliminate the Education Department. Okay. Di. Trump. They're against the. I. Trump got rid of that right away.

[David A. Graham]

Right, Exactly.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Health care. They want to privatize Medicare. Yes. Okay. Now you write about this and you're saying they want to go to Medicare Advantage. They just. Okay. Which. That's not good. I mean, Medicare Advantage policies, I imagine they're good. About 50% of people are.

[David A. Graham]

Right.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Have Medicare Advantage versus Medicare.

[David A. Graham]

Yeah, it's popular, but it doesn't save anything.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

And their network's very limited. And you have fewer choices of doctors.

[David A. Graham]

There's a lot of these kind of backdoor privatization things like that, where you're slowly pushing the system towards privatization. The same is true with VA healthcare. Want to push that away from care provided at VA hospitals and clinics and more towards the VA paying for private services, which is just sort of way to erode any kind of established government healthcare.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

I see. They want to make cuts to Medicaid, which has been accomplished. I mean, there is a big, beautiful bill. What is almost. How much are they cutting? A lot. Yeah, it's. It's huge. Okay, Immigration. Now, this is written by Ken Cuccinelli, who is a deputy secretary in Homeland Security. He want to abolish DHS and turn ICE and Customs and Border Protection into one agency. Why was that? Why is that?

[David A. Graham]

Well, you know, I think one thing they felt in the first Trump term was that they had all these border things they wanted to do. It was hard for them to sort of, you know, move between CBP and ICE and get all the parts together. And then they had to deal with all this stuff they didn't want to deal with, like fema. They didn't want that in there. You know, they didn't want to deal with tsa. All of these things felt like a distraction for them from the ultimate goal, which was closing down the borders in Homeland Security.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

In other words, they didn't want FEMA and Homeland Security.

[David A. Graham]

Right. So they wanted to. They want to spin FEMA off if they can send it elsewhere. Send a lot of, you know, send the Coast Guard back to the Pentagon, for example, or the Justice Department and just take apart DHS as it was created after 9, 11. So that what you're left with is a sort of super border agency. And I think we see parts of that already. I mean, the sort of interchangeability of CBP and ICE and a lot of these raids and the way they're working together is an example of how they're moving towards something like that, even without formal reorganization.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Well, and they thought that ICE and I guess the Border Protection are too eager to grant people entry into the country with asylum. That's gone.

[David A. Graham]

Right. It basically doesn't exist. Yeah. And, you know, refugee provisions are gone. Asylum has been largely blocked.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Well, asylum was really blocked in wake of the tragic shooting in Washington.

[David A. Graham]

Right.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

That was horrible. He suggests a lot of awful things like revoking the status of immigrants allowed to stay here legally, including Cubans, Haitians, Nicaraguans, Venezuelans. Remember the Haitians in Springfield that came up in the debate who supposedly eating pets, people's pets. A lot of them have lost their status.

[David A. Graham]

Right. So they've been very effective on taking away those statuses and making people who are in the country legally suddenly illegal by taking away their status.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Okay. And this is sort of the cruelty is the point. This is Adam Serwer. Right?

[David A. Graham]

Exactly.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

I mean, why do that? He wanted to cap and phase out visas for seasonal farm workers. Now, that. That's crazy. Right? I mean. Well, I'll tell you, first of all, they've been going to farms and taking people and deporting them. And we need agricultural workers. And, you know, American citizens don't like to do that.

[David A. Graham]

Right. And this is one of the places where you see farmers who voted for Trump breaking with Trump because it's hard to operate that way. And of course, Trump himself is very happy to take advantage of seasonal visas and foreign workers for his own businesses, but somehow that doesn't apply to other people.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

And he endorsed expedited removal, which means people being deported without a hearing. But that's what we do. Right, Right.

[David A. Graham]

Yeah. It's taking away due process. Basically.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

He wanted to use the military at the border, which we're doing. Which we're doing, which is a violation of the Posse Comitatus act.

[David A. Graham]

Potentially, depending on how they're used. They can be stationed there, but they can't do law enforcement work, which is a pretty fine line. And we've seen in some of these cases, you know, in, in California, we had a federal judge ruling that they, the military couldn't be used in the way that Trump was trying to use it.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

They had the Marines in there. They did, not just the National Guard.

[David A. Graham]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

And he told the generals, he spoke in front of the generals and said that he may we declare an insurrection so the military could occupy probably blue areas or whatever. Yeah.

[David A. Graham]

I mean, I think the threat of the Insurrection act is an interesting he they talk about it in Project 2025. Trump has talked about it since the first term and he still hasn't done it. And why he hasn't is something that I think it's an interesting question. And I've talked to experts who don't seem to know what he's waiting for, but it seems to me inevitable that at some point he will try to do that.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back with David Graham. Well, it's winter, the time of year for colder weather and holiday plans with family and friends. So I've been dressing in my winter clothes, stuff that's warm, comfy and sturdy. And that's where Quince comes in. Now, here's the deal with Quints. They prioritize quality, sustainability and affordability. By partnering directly with ethical factories and top artisans, Quince cuts out the middleman to deliver premium quality at half the cost of similar brands. So when you order from Quince, you can rely on their products. Take, for example, the denim jeans I got a couple months ago. They're Warren straight Jean in azure blue, which are only 60 bucks, as opposed to the typical 199 that you can expect from traditional brand markup. They fit me perfectly and I love the wash. They quickly became my favorite pair of jeans. Quint's has the kind of winter staples that you'll actually want to wear again and again. And their outerwear lineup is no joke. Down jackets, wool top coats, and even leather styles. Finding the right winter coat is easy with Quints. They've got plenty of options and the prices actually makes sense. Now let's say you have enough jeans and winter coats in your closet. Quint's has everything you could be looking for, whether it's a classic cashmere dress shirt, a cotton turtleneck sweater, or a leather flight jacket for that casual but put together look, that's me casual and put together. They even have home products such as bedding and cookware. I thought that was weird at first, but then I remembered their mission to prioritize quality, sustainability and affordability. Get your wardrobe sorted and your gift list handled with quints. Do not wait. Go to quints.com Franken for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Wow. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com Franken you really want to be.

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[David A. Graham]

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[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. And we're back with David Graham on the economy, taxes and tariffs. This is a quota I find really hilarious. The budget should be balanced by driving down federal spending while maintaining a strong national defense and not raising taxes.

[David A. Graham]

Good luck.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

I mean Trump when he ran the first time said he would balance the budget, right? And what was his deficit or debt? Deficit, I guess. 7.7 trillion, right?

[David A. Graham]

It was the Largest deficit increase in peacetime ever.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Huh. Okay, well, so they advocate a balanced budget, which, as I said as a joke, they want to simplify the income tax by reducing it two brackets. What would those be?

[David A. Graham]

So basically it's a flat tax with a little bit of a variation, but they want to get rid of a graduated income tax, for all intents and purposes, move to a flat tax, which.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Just helps high income people.

[David A. Graham]

It's extremely regressive. Yeah, exactly. It's very simple. It's easy to file. But it ends up, you know, for, For, I think, basically obvious reasons. People who make less money have to spend much more of that money, so they get taxed much more on it. Whereas people who make more can save a lot more. And they save on taxes.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Okay. They want to reduce the power of the Federal Reserve, maybe get rid of it.

[David A. Graham]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Okay. And someone want to return to the gold standard.

[David A. Graham]

This is the truly amazing thing to me is, is they want to be back to this sort of pre Civil War system where banks can issue their own currency, which was abolished because it didn't work, and also would take the US out of the position of the center of the global economy.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Right. Which is like an advantage.

[David A. Graham]

Seems like a good thing to me.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Yeah. Okay. They want the census to ask whether you're a citizen.

[David A. Graham]

Right.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Gee, why is that?

[David A. Graham]

And of course, we saw that in. They tried that in the first term and they tried it. Shut down by the Supreme Court for procedural reasons, basically.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Right, right. Procedural reasons.

[David A. Graham]

Yeah. And so, you know, they don't get a census this time around, but they want to move forward on that because they want to reduce representation in states that have a lot of immigrants, which, by the way, would hurt a lot of red states. So, you know, see how Texas feels about that.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Okay, let's go to climate. They're horrible on climate.

[David A. Graham]

You've summarized it. There it is.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

That's it. That's it. Trump has said it was a hoax, that it is a hoax. That was China. China did that. Okay. Do these people believe we have climate change?

[David A. Graham]

They don't say explicitly. Sometimes they, they just say, you know, it's the sort of. Well, if it exists, it's not caused by people, and if it is caused by people, we'll figure it out. Private enterprise will figure out how to solve the problem.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Okay. And they want to get rid of, of course, noaa.

[David A. Graham]

Right.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

That's the national oceanic and Atmospheric Administrator, which is the biggest agency in the, in the Commerce Department and has satellites, keeps track of weather and the climate forecasts.

[David A. Graham]

Hurricanes.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Yeah, yeah.

[David A. Graham]

And I'd say there's two things there. It's partly ideological in terms of opposition to climate change research, and it's partly an attempt to privatize these things as a favor to major business interests that are closely entwined and that have been trying to get NOAA privatized and make this stuff something you had to pay for for a very long time.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Right. And there's, I think there was some guy who is head of some big commercial weather forecasting thing who wanted to be Interior Secretary or something.

[David A. Graham]

That's right, yeah. He was nominated and rejected or had to be withdrawn because of opposition in the first term.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Okay. They hate electric vehicles. Yep.

[David A. Graham]

They hate solar power. They hate wind power. They love natural gas, though, of course.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

They'Re lower fuel economy standards. Okay. And of course they'd expand the number of leases for gas and oil drilling and feral land. Has Trump done that?

[David A. Graham]

He has expanded some of the leases. I mean, one of the problems you have here is although they have this real commitment, there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in drilling in the places where they're going to. When they go there, what you get is sort of rinky dink operations, but major drillers aren't going for that. So it's a place where they have this idea of a market that may not actually exist.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Okay, let's finally do foreign policy. China is the biggest threat, which I agree, I agree with. It's hard not to, I guess. I don't know. Finally, I agree with them. They see those in the Pentagon, in the State Department is too lefty. Right, Right. So they want to replace them with ideological right winger.

[David A. Graham]

Right, Exactly.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Now we have a Pentagon run by a guy who kicked the press out of the Pentagon and who's in trouble now. Maybe we don't know by the time this airs whether he'll still be there. Does anyone worry that an overly ideological Defense Department can make mistakes?

[David A. Graham]

That seems like a loaded question.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Well, it is.

[David A. Graham]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

So I want an answer. Yeah.

[David A. Graham]

I think it is a danger. And I think, you know, you're right. Like, people see China as a danger. That's a. That's something we heard. We've heard from. We heard from Trump, 1. We heard from Biden, we heard from Obama. Like that's a consistent bipartisan question or bipartisan view. But the question is what you do with that and how you approach that. And I think that's where you get into, you know, issues with Project 2025 and with the general Trump approach. Of course. Also, Trump talks a good game on China, but doesn't really do anything. That's another issue.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Now they want to expand the armed forces. This is a guy, Miller. What's his name? Christopher Miller writes we can fight. He wants to expand armed forces that we can fight and win two regional wars at once. We did that recently. Iraq and Afghanistan. We did that. And presumably these would involve China one or more.

[David A. Graham]

Right. Yeah. They see that as the field of operation.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

And Taiwan might be one of those, but Trump might not be on board that.

[David A. Graham]

Yeah, I mean, these are these places where I think they disagree with Trump to some extent. They're more hawkish than he is. You know, they're. They're more hawkish on Russia, for example, than he is as well.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Well, yeah, they uniformly in the report are pro Ukraine.

[David A. Graham]

Yeah, they don't talk a lot about it, but they talk. They're very clear about where they are on that.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

And he's selling Ukraine out. Right, okay. Ironically, the author's call for China to be a diplomatic priority as well. You write, including Max Primorak, who calls for USAID to counter China's Belt and Road initiative.

[David A. Graham]

Oops.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

With a massive global infrastructure spending program and develop. Maybe Elon Musk could manage that. He said bitterly. Okay, so I want to end on this. To give. This is a quote from Vote. But this is not in the report. But. But this is. Gives you some idea of votes. Take on how dire the state of the country was. I think this is. He maybe said this before Trump came in for the second term. The stark reality in America is that we are in the late stages of a Marxist takeover of the country, which our adversaries already hold the weapons of the government apparatus, and they have aimed it at us and they are continuing to aim until they no longer have to win elections. Okay, and this is Trump during the 2024 election. He told a group of Christians in Florida, christians, get out and vote. Just this time, you won't have to do it anymore. Four more years. You know what? It will be fixed. It will be fine. You won't have to vote anymore. My beautiful Christians, do you think we'll have an election in 2028?

[David A. Graham]

I think we will have an election. I spent some time talking to people about this, that very question, because people ask me that, and what I heard back is, oh, we'll have an election. Dictators love elections. They want an election because it gives them the appearance of legitimacy. It makes it seem like they have a popular mandate.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Hungary and Turkey.

[David A. Graham]

Yeah, Hungary, Turkey, Exactly. What you want to do is just make sure it's not an election you can lose. So you tilt the playing field. You bully media organizations, you investigate things like Act Blue, you investigate political opponents, you gerrymander, you do all of these things and then you can still have the election safe in the expectation that you will still win it.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Well, that's a great note.

[David A. Graham]

Well, you know, wanted to give you one more downer to finish.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Well, you've done it. Well, at least they haven't adopted all. Or he hasn't adopted all his stuff. But we give him time, right?

[David A. Graham]

It's only been a few months.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Yeah. Well, thanks.

[David A. Graham]

You're very welcome.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Well, I hope you enjoyed listening. That beautiful music is by Leo Kottke. The great Leo Kottke. I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next week.

[David A. Graham]

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[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

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[Joel Shapiro]

New beginning for our family on January 9th.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

The sequel to Greenland is so massive you have to see it on the big screen.

[Mary Beth Hollingsworth]

I promise I'll give to safety.

[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Starring Gerard Butler and Marina Baccarin. Oh my God.

[Rocket Money Advertiser]

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[Host (possibly Al Franken or another main host)]

Greenland 2 migration rated PG 13.