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- [00:00]
Al Franken
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- [00:59]
Al Franken
We got a great one today. You know, word change. And this time, this time I mean it because David Axelrod is my guest. Finally, somebody knows what he's talking about. And right before David joined me on Thursday, we got the news that Matt Gaetz had withdrawn his name from consideration for Attorney General. Something about him having sex with an underage young woman, a 17 year old girl whom he paid for the sex. And it seems that a critical mass of Republican senators had a real problem with that. I'm wondering when Trump is going to start vetting these people. Normally the FBI does a pretty exhaustive background check on these folks. Anyway, a few short hours later, Trump had found a replacement to nominate in Gates place, Pam Bondi, former state attorney general for Florida. Bondi had also argued before the United States Senate on behalf of Trump in his first impeachment trial. So she's already been an attorney general, so more experience in running that kind of operation than Matt Gaetz. Now all this puts some added focus on Trump's nominee for defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, who has a little trouble of his own. Also, I'm guessing no FBI background check. It seems that Hegseth had sex with a woman in Monterey, California, where he had been giving a speech and brought the woman to his hotel room. The woman said she felt that Hegseth had slipped something into her drink because all she remembered was waking up with Hegseth over her with his dog tags hanging in her face. She went to the cops with whom she filed a sexual assault charge against Hegseth, who who said he had done nothing wrong. Sometime later, Hegseth paid the woman to agree to a statement that said, I don't know what it said other than she's to keep quiet about the whole thing. I have the feeling that there's going to be more of these surprises awaiting us. But for the moment, let's go to David Axelrod. And finally, finally, finally a great one. You know, for a change.
- [03:20]
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- [04:33]
David Axelrod
As we're speaking. Now, as we're just starting off, it's Thursday afternoon. Matt Gaetz has just withdrawn. That's been announced.
- [04:42]
Unnamed Guest
That was interesting because one of the questions he really was the most extreme test of whether there was any semblance of checks and balances. And obviously they got the word from the Republican members of the Senate that this was a bridge too far for them.
- [04:59]
David Axelrod
Yeah, he was not qualified for the job.
- [05:01]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah, there was that. He wasn't qualified for the job. And that was the smallest problem or the smaller problem.
- [05:08]
David Axelrod
Right. There's only two basic problems that one and the one which is that he's accused of having sex with an underage girl.
- [05:18]
Unnamed Guest
Paying for it, too.
- [05:19]
David Axelrod
And paying for it.
- [05:20]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [05:21]
David Axelrod
And more than once. And anyway, did Trump do background checks on all these people or on none of them?
- [05:28]
Unnamed Guest
No. I mean, first of all, he's refused to allow the FBI to do background checks. You know, when I was appointed to my position in the White House, I mean, I was interviewed by the FBI. They interviewed a lot of people about me. They did exhaustive investigations on everyone. And every cabinet member to date has been through that process that Trump has refused to do that and the Gates thing was apparently cooked up on an airplane ride from Florida to Washington. And they announced it without any background check. And they've run into another problem here with the secretary of Defense. Hegseth.
- [06:05]
David Axelrod
It's a similar. It's in the same area involve sex with a woman, but this not underage and paying.
- [06:12]
Unnamed Guest
And paying her off to bury quiet about allegations. So they are not doing vetting and they're paying a price for it. But you can see where Donald Trump would not think much of vetting. So.
- [06:31]
David Axelrod
Yeah, how does he vet exactly? You know, he's been adjudicated as a sexual assaulter. There's that. And he's been convicted of. What were those 34 counts for?
- [06:48]
Unnamed Guest
Business records manipulation. That was to bury the Stormy Daniels campaign.
- [06:54]
David Axelrod
And fraud. He had a fraudulent charity or at least one.
- [06:59]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah. That was shut down by the state of New York.
- [07:02]
David Axelrod
Yeah, he had that. And also he was found to have fraudulently lied to the state of New York.
- [07:08]
Unnamed Guest
We could do this whole thing, Al, but we'd exhaust the entire show.
- [07:12]
David Axelrod
Okay, that's a good idea. Let's cut that out. Everybody knows that he's got his problems, but he was elected by the people of the United States. And let's talk about that because we talked a little earlier and I reminded you that you. And you know this very well, that you were one of the early ones. This is way pre debate to say that maybe Biden was too old.
- [07:38]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah, for two reasons. I worked in the office next to a president, so I have some sense of the unbelievable pressures of that job. And secondly, I am getting older and I've had parents and grandparents and I'm not an actuary, but I have a sense that when you're closer to 90 than 80, President of the United States is probably not a good job for you.
- [08:03]
David Axelrod
And you took a lot of criticism for this. You put yourself out there and took a lot of criticism for this. I did. A lot of people didn't see it, but his staff had to see it. America didn't really, really understand it or see it until the debate, which was a debacle.
- [08:18]
Unnamed Guest
It was a debacle. And it was exactly what I feared. Look, everybody's gonna have to live with their own roles. He had a staff that was more loyal to him. Not all of them. I think there were a lot of people there who were probably appalled by the idea. But, you know, there are a couple of people there very close to him and maybe his own family whose Loyalty to him meant more than their loyalty to the country. And I think it was shameful. You know, I understand it. I understand loyalty and so on.
- [08:50]
David Axelrod
Well, you stuck your neck out there and you were right, so let me just say that.
- [08:54]
Unnamed Guest
Oh, thank you. I appreciate that, Alan. I did hear from a lot of people who gave me a bunch of shit at the time. Time.
- [09:00]
David Axelrod
No, it was very, very. Yeah, very controversial. Very. How dare you. And you got a lot of that shit.
- [09:07]
Unnamed Guest
And then I was the last person, along with David Plouffe, to interview Joe Biden before Obama picked him for vice president. I very much valued him in the White House. I think he was a tremendous asset in the years that I was there and worked with him. Tremendous asset to the president. I think he's done some things that, as president, that are historically important. I think he' you know, I hope history gives him credit, more credit than the voters do right now.
- [09:36]
David Axelrod
The voters didn't give him credit for some pretty important things, including the recovery of the economy, but they didn't see that. They didn't experience well.
- [09:46]
Unnamed Guest
They said, yes, Well, I mean, I think that this is an important point, though. You can't tell. And we learned this during the Great Recession. We were making progress, but people weren't feeling it. And you can't tell people how they feel. They experience what they experience. And one of the things that's happened in our society, and it's one of the things that's happened to the Democratic Party is I didn't feel inflation. I mean, I guess I was aware that things cost more, but I was in a position where it didn't change my life. I didn't have to make decisions based on that.
- [10:24]
David Axelrod
Yeah, well, that's. Me neither. And. But that's. Most people aren't in that situation, unfortunately. You know, we had 9.1% inflation in the middle of what, 20, 22 or 21.
- [10:37]
Unnamed Guest
And it's cumulative. So, you know, even as it doesn't go down, right.
- [10:41]
David Axelrod
The rate of inflation go down, that still means there's inflation and things are getting costlier and people kind of expected, holy mackerel, they hadn't seen that kind of inflation since the Ford Carter years. Whip inflation. Now, it's just.
- [10:55]
Unnamed Guest
And, you know, people would say to me, well, you know, democracy's on the ballot. Don't people understand that? And I would say routinely, my whole life is about this democracy, and I'm the son of a refugee, so I appreciate it even more keenly. But if you are talking about democracy over the dining Room table. It's probably because you don't have to worry about the cost of the food on the table. If you're worried about the cost of the food on the table, that's more likely to be top of mind concern.
- [11:24]
David Axelrod
That's your decision. Discussion. Mom, why can't I have another.
- [11:27]
Unnamed Guest
And how are we going to afford. How are we going to afford this? How are we going to afford daycare? How are we going to afford our cars broken down? How are we going to afford that?
- [11:36]
David Axelrod
Well, we're going to have the federal government pay for daycare. How's that for childcare? That was one of Harris's propositions.
- [11:45]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah. No, listen, the Democratic proposals were great. I mean, they were great. I think there were too many of them, frankly. And they sort of answered the question of is she substantive? By doing what we do and coming.
- [12:01]
David Axelrod
Up with what was the one. To start a business, you'd get 50,000. 50,000?
- [12:06]
Unnamed Guest
Yes, 50,000. Tax free? Well, to make capital available, I guess.
- [12:11]
David Axelrod
Yeah, in a way. Do people want to start businesses or do they want to be able to have a lamb chop?
- [12:18]
Unnamed Guest
I think these things are all related. The point is she arrived 90 days before the election and offered these proposals. And, you know, my complaint is, or my advice to the Democratic Party is that we are still the party of working people. But too often we approach them like anthropologists or missionaries. You know, we show up and we say, we are here to help you become more like us. We're going to help you go to college, we're going to help you get a job like us.
- [12:54]
David Axelrod
And does that cause any resentment at all when people sense that? I think that.
- [13:01]
Unnamed Guest
It is an unintended but very felt bit of disdain. You people who work with your hands, you people who work with your backs, you people who grow the food we eat and ship the food and the products that we use, you people who care for us, you folks are less than us. It's not what we say, it's not even what we consciously think. But that is the message.
- [13:26]
David Axelrod
It's what I consciously think all the time.
- [13:29]
Unnamed Guest
It's al. You know, I think all the time. And I talk about this, about the pandemic. The pandemic for me, nobody close to me died. And the pandemic for me was in some ways a very joyful period in a very dismal time because I was able to be home. I could do everything I do over a computer. Some of my kids moved into the guest house and we had a lovely time. You know, we took Long walks.
- [14:08]
David Axelrod
Wasn't Harris gonna give you a certain amount of money to build a guest house?
- [14:13]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah, that was him. I don't know if that made the cut of the 80 pages of proposals. I think that may have been in Trump's. I don't know. But my point is this. While we were doing that, there were millions and millions and millions of Americans who had to go to work every day, who had to risk themselves because they were. We called them essential workers. They produced the things that we needed, they grew food, they manufactured food, they shipped what we needed, and they cared for us. And we call them essential workers. And we cheered them on.
- [14:50]
David Axelrod
You're so essential that we're going to expose you.
- [14:53]
Unnamed Guest
And then we're going to. Yeah, and then. But then we also said when the pandemic was over, they sort of faded again in our consciousness. They became part of the woodwork again. And I just think we as a party and we as a country need to value every person and their role and their place and understand that there's dignity in that work. It is essential work. We ought to stop being this sort of metropolitan, college educated, smarty pants party and live our values.
- [15:26]
David Axelrod
We lost, for example, Latinos in working class.
- [15:31]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah, well, working class men went 55% for Trump. He had the highest number of Hispanic voters. Working class Hispanic men, highest number of Hispanic voters. So let's talk about that. This is a good example, again, of sort of unawareness on the part of white liberals in glistening apartment towers and nice suburban homes. Kind of thinking, and frankly, on campuses talking about the Latinos, the fact is that the Hispanic community is deeply diverse. Many different cultures, many different backgrounds. The people who are voting second, third, fourth generation Americans, they behave more like every other working class American. They're not looking for racial advocates, they're looking for economic advocates. And they're also, in the main, much more conservative on cultural issues. The idea that because Trump has kind of made immigrants his target, that was.
- [16:36]
David Axelrod
What was confusing to people like me, going like, how can Latinos vote for this guy who's Talking about deporting 10 million people, a lot of them Latinos.
- [16:50]
Unnamed Guest
You look at polling and focus groups and go to these communities. I mean, where he did best among Hispanic voters was in sort of the Rio Grande border states, you know, border communities, because their folks were touched by that. But a lot of these voters thought, hey, I'm here, I'm legal, I came here legally, I became a citizen, or I was born here and I am a citizen. And I'm as outraged I find it hard to understand how it took three years for the administration to focus on the border. I think there were mistakes made at the beginning that contributed to the problem. And you know, and I think the assumption among a lot of voters and maybe some Hispanic voters is that Democrats did not want to, you know, they thought they'd be antagonizing their voters by taking a stronger stand on border security. And so they didn't do it.
- [17:51]
David Axelrod
And it took three years to kind of finally do it. And we tried to get legislation which the Republicans shot down.
- [17:59]
Unnamed Guest
Right. After three years. Yes, but, you know, so that was a self inflicted wound. But in terms of just getting back to Hispanic voters, I think it was an example of how the Democratic Party or at least some in the Democratic Party are insular and have misread constituencies. Like I think all the working class constituencies should be target for Democrats.
- [18:24]
David Axelrod
Yeah, we're union people. We've traditionally been the party of the working people.
- [18:31]
Unnamed Guest
Listen, Joe Biden, his program in terms of labor, for example, and in terms of taxes and other things. He is a pro worker president without question, but because of all these other things that became much less relevant. But you know, where we lost, by the way, Al, is, I mean, we lost marginally more among working class whites. Where the big loss came was among Hispanics, to a lesser degree among African Americans. But Hispanics and Asian American voters, both of whom voted two thirds for Biden in 2020.
- [19:14]
David Axelrod
Now, how much did Harris lose by Trump seems to be claiming numbers that, you know, justify saying it was a landslide or something.
- [19:23]
Unnamed Guest
Well, he wouldn't do that. Come on.
- [19:26]
David Axelrod
No, no, he did. He did. Yes.
- [19:28]
Unnamed Guest
Donald Trump justifying.
- [19:30]
David Axelrod
Haven't you been listening to him over the last 10 years? He brags about things he shouldn't even brag about.
- [19:38]
Unnamed Guest
He still, he still claims he won a majority against Hillary Clinton. He still claims he won the last election. So of course he's going to claim over claim. Look, he's now below a majority of vote. He will win by somewhere between a point and a point and a half in the popular vote. You know, a couple of hundred thousand votes across seven battleground states. It wasn't a massive victory. It was a very narrow victory.
- [20:05]
David Axelrod
Tell me about Michigan because we were talking about Michigan earlier. How much was that? What was the difference there and how much was that the Muslim population?
- [20:12]
Unnamed Guest
Well, I think the margin was larger than the Muslim vote. While we speak, I am looking up with the current because they were still.
- [20:21]
David Axelrod
This is great for those of you who can't see David is looking at something.
- [20:28]
Unnamed Guest
Yes, well, I'm looking at. I'm looking at results, man. I'm trying to find. I'm trying to find results. She is down by in Michigan, 50.6 to 47.8. He's got 104, about 140,000 votes more than she. He's going to win the state by two or three points.
- [20:52]
David Axelrod
Yeah, that's too much to say.
- [20:54]
Unnamed Guest
No, no, it wasn't, it wasn't. You can't blame it on one thing. There are counties in Michigan and there are communities. There is a Palestinian American community around Detroit. There's a Lebanese American community around Detroit. There are cities that Biden won overwhelmingly. Dearborn, Michigan, for example, where Trump didn't win and where Jill Stein did better. Where Trump won and Jill Stein did better than Harris, Green Party candidate. But this was obviously a consequence of the war in the Middle east. And Biden and Harris were in this terrible position where Jews in some of these battleground states were angry about their denunciation of some of Netanyahu's tactics and Arab Americans were angry because they didn't. But they continued to provide arms for him. So they felt that they weren't using the leverage that he had. There also were the campus protests and there was a backlash in the Jewish community about that. Although overall I don't think the fall off among Jews was all that, all that pronounced. But, you know, so they were sort of in this very, very precarious. The day that Hamas engaged in that horrific massacre was a turning point as well.
- [22:17]
David Axelrod
But the October 7th.
- [22:20]
Unnamed Guest
Yes, but I will say this hideous, hideous and beyond belief, but that doesn't mean, and I say this all the time, and we're both Jews, I can feel as I do about this massacre, which was just an absolute, as you say, barbarian act. And I can understand how Israel had to respond to it because you had people who not only engaged in that, but were sworn to wiping you off the map and showed what they would do to do it. But that doesn't preclude me grieving and crying for the children of Gaza. And you can hold these two thoughts at once. And I think Biden did, but his inability to affect events.
- [23:15]
David Axelrod
He cut off the 2,000 pound bombs for a little bit and then not. And I think he might have been able to do something like that a little bit, send some stronger signal so.
- [23:27]
Unnamed Guest
That, you know, put them in a jam. But listen, ultimately all of this was, may have been irrelevant because. And I'll give you, I will give you three numbers and two letters. That will explain the whole election. The numbers are 28. That's the number of Americans who thought the country was on the right track. 40, which is Joe Biden's, was Joe Biden's approval rating on election day. 60, I believe. 66 is the number. The percentage of people who thought the economy was either fair or poor. If you. I, as a political professional, if you would hand me to a sheet of paper, you would say, no incumbent party is going to win reelection whether the president's running or not with those kind of numbers. And then you add the letters V and P, vice president, and you're running the number two person in the outfit that people want to fire. And so, even with Trump's prodigious, historic, unthinkable baggage, the headwinds for Kamala Harris were extraordinary. And it would have been a miraculous thing to win that election. Based on history.
- [24:41]
David Axelrod
This is something. I mean, Trump is sort of a hideous figure. And I remember, like, in the last week of the campaign, you know, he would do this free association speaking, which he called. What did he call it? A weave. Right?
- [24:56]
Unnamed Guest
A weave, yes.
- [24:57]
David Axelrod
But every once in a while, he would go into. Did you see the one where he started to fellate a microphone?
- [25:04]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [25:05]
David Axelrod
Okay. Now, when you're doing that. When you're doing that, you have some confidence that you know your people better than we know his people.
- [25:19]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [25:20]
David Axelrod
You know, I wondered, how much did he say they love me offending people.
- [25:27]
Unnamed Guest
I think that you saw the way they closed their campaign. And I will precede this by saying a lesson I learned in 25 years of doing campaigns, that you're never as smart as you look when you win, and you're never as dumb as you look when you lose. So everything looks smart in retrospect when you win. But he populated these.
- [25:48]
David Axelrod
That's a good rule.
- [25:49]
Unnamed Guest
They understand, or they understood who their target was. Their target was largely men and young men. And their target were young men who were not regular voters. And they understood who they were and where they, you know, got their information, because it wasn't from news and it wasn't from newspapers, and it wasn't, you know, it wasn't from. It was from social media and podcasts. And he went on Joe Rogan and he went on a whole series of podcasts where you reach these young men. Their social media was aimed there. Elon Musk's petition, remember his petition? He paid people $100 if they were registered voters. They paid people, they. $100 to sign a petition in support of free speech and the Second Amendment. And he paid them $47 apiece to get other people to sign it. He then cross matched those names with the names of registered voters and their vote history. And he identified those people in the target who he could go out and reach. A lot of them were young men. I think he did expand the universe in some of these battleground states, particularly in Pennsylvania.
- [27:03]
David Axelrod
I'm not sure that their ground game though was anywhere near.
- [27:07]
Unnamed Guest
But what we have to evaluate is whether the ground game. I think the ground game means something.
- [27:12]
David Axelrod
No, it does. And I thought, I thought Harris had the superior ground game.
- [27:16]
Unnamed Guest
She did. But they had a superior social media game and a superior targeting game.
- [27:22]
Al Franken
We're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back with David Axelrod.
- [27:29]
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- [28:00]
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- [28:51]
David Axelrod
Well, let me ask you what Musk's role is in this with this group now, because I have the feeling that.
- [28:57]
Unnamed Guest
This group meaning the U.S. government.
- [28:59]
David Axelrod
The U.S. this group, the U.S. government. Well, like let's take the Senate. He is so wealthy that he would be in the position to threaten senators to say, Republican senators to say, I can dump tens of millions of dollars against you in your primary.
- [29:21]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah, well, he can. And so can many others who are supporting Trump. But yes, he could do that. But I also Think that he's a large federal contractor. He has business interests that will be affected by the government. Look at, I mean, this people.
- [29:42]
David Axelrod
Well, he's part of the government now, right? I mean, he's going to be.
- [29:45]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah, well, he. Well, except ex officio. Kind of like he's not being paid by the government. He won't be vetted by the government, but he's advising the government on the budget in which he partakes.
- [29:59]
David Axelrod
Him and Ramaswamy have this thing called dog, and that's the Department of Government Efficiency.
- [30:06]
Unnamed Guest
Efficiency, yes.
- [30:07]
David Axelrod
Okay. And that will have a budget. That will have a budget and we'll have people that are in. That creates a new agency.
- [30:16]
Unnamed Guest
Well, it's not really clear how it's going to operate, but yes, somehow. I mean, look, Elon could fund the whole thing and it could be purely advisory. They'll figure a way to do it so that neither of those guys have any exposure. But he's talked about cutting $2 trillion from the budget. So, Al, you've been a senator. Basically, that would eliminate the entire discretionary domestic budget of the United States. It's insane.
- [30:47]
David Axelrod
They've embraced sort of the West Virginia versus the EPA and the Chevron doctrine being overturned.
- [30:57]
Unnamed Guest
Yes.
- [30:58]
David Axelrod
They did a thing in the Wall Street Journal today. They wrote a piece and they are basically saying this bureaucracy doesn't make the rules anymore. And so all these bureaucrats who've been writing the rules, the rules have to be written by Congress. And I don't know how that works because when we passed the Affordable Care act, it was thousands of pages long and it took four years to write the regulations. And members of Congress don't write health.
- [31:25]
Unnamed Guest
Care regulations bright and knowledgeable as they are.
- [31:27]
David Axelrod
Yes, but there is something to be said for professionals who know how to do this.
- [31:34]
Unnamed Guest
There certainly is. Look, here's what I believe. Yes, absolutely. And this is a way basically to try and gut the EPA and all the other regulatory agencies. I mean, that's really what that is about. I don't think every regulation that's written makes sense. I don't think that there should be no oversight of these regulatory agencies. I think bureaucracy should be challenged. Every bureaucracy anywhere should be challenged on a regular basis. So all of that is true. But I think this to me feels more like a demolition exercise and bringing.
- [32:13]
David Axelrod
In people in the government. And their test is who won the presidential election in 2020.
- [32:21]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah, right, exactly. And loyalty to the President. But as to Musk, he will be the first Russian style oligarch that we've seen There've been powerful industrialists in the history of the US in the Gilded Age and so on, but this guy is going to be unique in the modern annals of American history for the power that he leverages. And the only, you know, he's talking to Putin, he's talking to other governments. Trump put him on the phone with Zelensky. Now, imagine what that conversation's like, because Elon Musk, to his credit, has been supplying Internet service to Ukraine. Now, Trump wants. He wants Zelensky to fold and settle this war on whatever terms he can.
- [33:07]
David Axelrod
Well, Trump. Trump has said that he's going to do it in one day.
- [33:11]
Unnamed Guest
24 hours.
- [33:11]
David Axelrod
Yeah, 24 hours.
- [33:12]
Unnamed Guest
So. So you put. I don't know what would pass between Musk and Zelensky, but Zelensky is a smart guy. He understands this guy has tremendous leverage over us. So I think Musk is going to be playing a role that we have never seen in the modern annals of American history. It is a frightening and undemocratic prospect.
- [33:39]
David Axelrod
When are we going to be able to hold Trump to the. You're going to settle this in one day. So January 21st, or is it. Do we give him a little bit?
- [33:49]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah. Are you going to put it on your calendar? Listen, I'm afraid he will try and settle it in one day, and he's going to try and settle, settle it on the least favorable terms to Ukraine and the most favorable terms to Putin. I want this war over, but I want this war over in such a way that the kind of aggression that Putin has shown is not rewarded. Hopefully, they will settle this war and they will do it on terms that are fair to Ukraine and doesn't encourage Putin or other autocrats around the world to think that they can go in and try and grab another country. But one thing I know for sure, no one elected Elon Musk to be a part of that process, and he's not going to be an official of the US Government. He's just going to be. It's going to be like the oligarchs in Russia. And hopefully, for his sake, it ends better than it did for that guy Prigozhin or whatever his name was.
- [34:49]
David Axelrod
Yeah, but that was his name.
- [34:52]
Unnamed Guest
Yes, and didn't end well. Didn't end well, but. And it may not end well for him relative to his relationship with Trump, because one thing about the Trump show, it's like the Al Franken show, you know, when you're the star, you're the star.
- [35:04]
David Axelrod
That's right.
- [35:06]
Unnamed Guest
Trump doesn't Tolerate. He doesn't tolerate co stars.
- [35:10]
David Axelrod
Well, we'll see how long he does. I think he admires a co star who is the richest man in the world.
- [35:17]
Unnamed Guest
That is the wild card. That is a wild guardian. No one admires wealth more than Donald Trump.
- [35:22]
David Axelrod
Right. And having the richest guy in the world on your side can be very helpful in come campaigns, you know, when you need that cash.
- [35:35]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [35:37]
David Axelrod
Is this Gates going away? Is that going to affect, you know, like what's his name for the Defense Department?
- [35:44]
Unnamed Guest
Hexeth. Yes. Or Tulsi Gabbard as the dni. Which.
- [35:49]
David Axelrod
And that is the most ridiculous. I think that's the most ridiculous one I've seen.
- [35:54]
Unnamed Guest
Well, I mean, it's also. Trump said he was going to make us safer. So now we have, you know, we had Matt Gaetz and the potential, you know, there's talk of Cash Patel as FBI director who can, you know, and these guys, their mission is basically to hamstring the Justice Department and do Donald Trump's bidding. That's not going to make anybody safer. Tulsi Gabbard, who has no expertise in intelligence, but does have expertise in parroting Russian talking points.
- [36:27]
David Axelrod
And Syrian talking points.
- [36:28]
Unnamed Guest
And Syrian talking points. As head Director of National Intelligence. Which of our allies are going to feel comfortable sharing top secret intelligence with the United States of America with Tulsi Gabbard as dni? I mean, they may not with Donald Trump as president, but. But it is dangerous. It makes us less safe because that intelligence sharing is part of what helps us prevent potential cataclysms. Then I haven't even gotten to Bobby Kennedy as Secretary of Health and Human Services. A guy who is a serial purveyor of conspiracy theories about vaccines and other public health issues, who has said his first action would be to fire 600 people from the National Institutes of Health. Who's going to. Who's going to. Our kids. And we both have grandkids. Are they going to be safer now that we have a guy who says that vaccines, childhood vaccines, cause autism, you.
- [37:32]
David Axelrod
Know, and he is now saying, well, I'm not going to prevent people from getting vaccines. I think that's his thing. But, you know, he got the endorsement from the national association for the Advancement of Mumps, his old San Rubella. It's crazy that.
- [37:50]
Unnamed Guest
So none of these things. First of all, we'll see what your former colleagues will do. I mean, they clearly did drive Gates out.
- [37:59]
David Axelrod
Sounds like it.
- [38:00]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah. And which of these nominees that we just mentioned will they drive, tolerate and will they stand up to Trump. One of the things they have to think about is Donald Trump is a lame duck now, and so he's not going to be around in 2028.
- [38:19]
David Axelrod
But he's got four years. He does have four years.
- [38:22]
Unnamed Guest
And they have to worry about their primary elections. But some of them, some of the members of the Senate are not even going to be running until the ones who are elected this year will be running two years after Donald Trump leaves office. And there are members of the House and swing districts who have to think about this stuff. I mean, can they just indulge Trump and not pay any price for it? I think that there's a lot for Republicans to think about. But you tell me, because you're far more expert on the United States Senate than I am. I mean, how do you think they're going to deal with Trump?
- [38:56]
David Axelrod
I was very impressed that Gates left today. And so that was clearly the Republican senators saying, you know, we're going to get that report. Yes, we're going to get our hands on that and that report. And it sounds like that report is over the. So over the line that that was it. So it did impress me. I was fearful that Gates would fly through. But I think the Republicans are protecting the Senate a little bit.
- [39:27]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, you have a 53 vote majority in the Senate. You have Susan Collins and Murkowski there who have shown, generally shown Collins less so on some of these Supreme Court nominations, but generally shown a willingness to stand up to Trump. I mean, Murkowski, her first reaction when, when Gates was named within minutes was, I'm not even going to talk about it because this isn't a serious nomination. Send me a serious nominee for the Attorney General and I'll tell you how I feel about it. So she seems willing to stand up to Trump. Mitch McConnell now says that he's a free agent. He's clearly not running again. And there are a bunch of other people who aren't running again who know they're not running again, some of whom who haven't announced it. He hasn't announced it yet. Will they use that freedom to stand up to Trump or is it just too much trouble to go home and face enraged MAGA people? So they won't. I mean, Bill Cassidy showed a lot of courage voting for impeachment. He voted for impeachment, the conviction. I don't know if Bill Cassidy's gonna run again. So, you know, there are people who have the freedom, if they want to, to stand up and hopefully that will have. And in Fact, Bill Cassidy, who I think is a good guy, is a doctor. He must have some feelings about this batshit crazy stuff that Bobby Kennedy said.
- [40:55]
David Axelrod
Yes. And he's on the, he's, I think, chairman of the Health, Education, labor and Pension.
- [40:59]
Unnamed Guest
Al, you know, I've been like at this since I was five years old. I started, I mean, I worked in my first campaign when I was nine years old. That was for the real Bobby Kennedy back in 1964. I believe so deeply in this democracy and what it affords us. And I'm just not willing to say it's over, I'm giving up. But we're at a hinge moment here where we need some people to show some courage and keep the excesses of Donald Trump under control.
- [41:32]
David Axelrod
And I think the courage that we saw this week was taken by Republican senators. Yeah, so there's that. When we only have 47 in the Senate and we have the minority in the House, it's going to be hard. It's going to be hard.
- [41:46]
Unnamed Guest
But it is, it is. And you know, the pressure points, here's the thing about Trump and this is something I think everybody should be alert to. If you are willing to try and co opt all, you know, the Justice Department and the major regulatory agencies of government and you are willing to use pressure points so as to have the FCC pressure broadcast outlets on licenses and impact on mergers and acquisitions, they're going to do that.
- [42:18]
David Axelrod
That's what they did in Hungary.
- [42:20]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah, exactly. Hungary is the prototype. If people want to know how bad it could get, that is the thing they should worry about because Donald Trump holds up Viktor Orban of Hungary as his role model. I mean, and what Viktor Orban has done as prime minister of Hungary has turned Hungary into a zombie democracy. He has basically ended an independent media in that country. He has co opted the courts in that country. He has used all these pressure points.
- [42:54]
David Axelrod
And it's his model, it's Trump's model. And he's going to, he's going to do that because he's going to be as corrupt as you can as he can be.
- [43:01]
Unnamed Guest
I think it's interesting about Donald Trump. He has a different way of looking at the world. It's not like he says, I'm going to thieve and steal and do and you know, I'm going to be dishonest and I'm going to profit off of it. He thinks the world is dishonest and he's just better at it. He thinks, you know, that's really what he thinks. And he. So he doesn't have a concept of right and wrong. He thinks the world is the Hunger Games and the strong take what they want, the weak fall away. And people who abide by rules and laws and norms and institutions are suckers. And that's a big. That's dangerous.
- [43:42]
David Axelrod
That's a good note to end on. I think we'll call it for today.
- [43:47]
Unnamed Guest
All right.
- [43:47]
David Axelrod
Okay.
- [43:48]
Unnamed Guest
Always great to be with you.
- [43:50]
David Axelrod
It's great to be with you. Thank you. Dave. Dave.
- [43:52]
Unnamed Guest
Okay, See ya.
- [43:53]
Al Franken
Well, I. I hope you enjoyed listening. That beautiful music is by Leo Kotke.
- [43:58]
David Axelrod
The great Leo Kotke.
- [44:00]
Al Franken
I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next.
- [44:20]
Advertiser
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- [44:37]
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David Axelrod
Let's go.
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Advertiser
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The numbers look good.
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David Axelrod
Brad, you're on mute.
- [45:01]
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