The Al Franken Podcast

Episode: Dr. Tom Frieden and Brandy Zadrozny on RFK Jr. and the CDC
Date: September 28, 2025

Overview

This episode tackles the far-reaching consequences of Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s radically anti-vaccine leadership at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and Health and Human Services, along with former President Trump’s enthusiastic embrace of anti-vaccine rhetoric. Al Franken brings together Dr. Tom Frieden (former CDC Director) and Brandy Zadrozny (NBC News investigative reporter) for a frank discussion on the politicization of vaccine policy, the undermining of public health institutions, the departure of career CDC staff, and how pseudoscience now shapes federal health policy. The episode also explores what is at stake for childhood vaccination, public trust, and the nation’s health.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Spread of Vaccine Misinformation by Political Leaders

• Trump’s Rhetoric & Tylenol-Autism Connection (03:42–07:11):
  Trump has echoed and amplified debunked claims by RFK Jr., such as warning pregnant women against Tylenol due to a supposed link to autism—a claim opposed by all reputable scientific studies.

  • Dr. Frieden:

    “If you have a fever, it’s important to bring it down. And guess which medicine is safest? Tylenol, acetaminophen.” (04:43)

  • Brandy Zadrozny:

    “It’s really hard to prove a negative...science rarely says, like, there is absolutely no way that this has no cause. Right? ...the overwhelming sort of the science that we do have seems to suggest that...if you take a Tylenol while you’re pregnant, your child will not have autism.” (04:04)

  • Swedish Study Reference:
    Dr. Frieden describes a study with 2.5 million Swedish children tracked over 20 years, which found “no association between Tylenol and autism.” (05:32–07:11)

2. What Really Causes Autism? (07:13–08:26)

• The increase in autism diagnoses is largely due to broadened definitions and better recognition, not a true surge in cases. The real contributors are multiple genetic factors, parental age, and folate deficiency; “we really don’t know” all causes.

3. RFK Jr.’s Takeover and Gutting of the CDC (08:26–13:54)

• Susan Menarrez Firing:
  Kennedy fired CDC head Susan Menarrez after just 29 days for refusing to rubber-stamp his proposed vaccine schedule without data (09:43–11:41).
  • Brandy Zadrozny:

    “He [RFK Jr.] brought her in and basically said...rubber stamp approve everything that’s gonna come out of this next ACIP panel...she said, ‘let me see the data’...he said, ‘no, I’m not going to show you that’...and then, ‘I want you to fire all the senior CDC staff for no cause.’” (09:51)

• Mass Exodus of CDC Staff:
  Up to 20% of CDC staff—mainly career scientists and leaders—have left, resulting in “the wholesale destruction of our health protections.” (11:41–12:41)
  • Dr. Frieden:

    “2000 staff at CDC let go. Half of CDC’s centers...” (11:41)

4. Anti-Vaccine Activists in Key Positions (13:08–16:47)

• ACIP Stack with Deniers:
  ACIP (the advisory committee that sets vaccine recommendations) has new members—some espousing anti-vaccine views and conspiracy theories (13:08–14:13).
  • Dr. Frieden:

    “These are folks who either have longstanding anti-vaccine views, ...some of them...certain that vaccines cause autism—which has been repeatedly studied in millions of children. No evidence for that.” (13:08)

• Medical Community Response:
  Major groups (American Academy of Pediatrics, insurers) now refuse to participate in or recognize ACIP as a credible body—the first time in history. (16:44–17:46)
  • Dr. Frieden:

    "It's really unprecedented. You have the Doctors association saying we're not going to follow what ACIP says anymore...This has never happened before." (17:08)

• Should Medical Professionals Abstain or Engage?
  • Dr. Frieden:

    “I think it’s always better to speak up respectfully...because the folks who are preying on people’s concerns are not making those concerns up. Those concerns are real.” (18:01)

5. Policy Changes and Threats to Childhood Vaccination

• Access to Vaccines Jeopardized:
  Covid and other vaccine access may become restricted, and key childhood vaccine recommendations (e.g., Hepatitis B at birth) are under threat (20:53–24:14).

  • Dr. Frieden:

    “You can still get vaccinations in most places, but there may be barriers and we may see more of those coming up. So this is kind of just the start of disrupting...our safety net that protects us.” (21:39)

  • Brandy Zadrozny:

    “He has installed pretty quietly the original architects of the anti-vaccine movement within HHS and CDC...” (29:19)

• Hepatitis B Controversy:
  The administration attempted to delay the Hepatitis B newborn shot, which could directly lead to the deaths of thousands of American children annually (24:14–25:10).

  • Dr. Frieden:

    "It was on the agenda, and then it was postponed indefinitely...if followed, it kind of provably will result in that [deaths]." (24:14)

6. Lawsuits, State Policies, and the Legal Attack on Vaccines (32:12–34:38)

• Key Players:
  RFK Jr., Aaron Siri (leading anti-vaccine lawyer), and others behind legal/lobbying efforts to weaken vaccine requirements and protections nationwide.
  • Dr. Frieden:

    “It’s not just lawsuits, it’s also hundreds and hundreds of laws at the state level to roll back vaccine protections.” (32:44)

• Mississippi Example:
  After decades as the top state for child vaccination (due to strict rules), Mississippi rolled back exemptions after legal pressure from anti-vaccine activists (33:28–34:38).
  • Brandy Zadrozny:

    “A group of parents ... brought in Aaron Sery. ... introduced this law, sued the state ... and he won because the Republican attorney general refused to fight the lawsuit...so now Mississippi children are less protected.” (33:28)

7. RFK Jr.’s Focus and Network

• Priorities:
  Indian Health Service (protected, used as “punishment” outposts for disfavored CDC staff), and vaccine policy (installation of anti-vax ideologues in key federal health roles) (29:19–31:34).
• Refusal to Consult Experts:
  Kennedy and staff not consulting CDC vaccine experts at all—a “pretty surprising” abdication (31:34).

8. What Will It Take to Break the Deadlock? (36:20–37:54)

• Will Kennedy’s Tenure End?
  Hope that public outrage over child deaths (e.g., from measles outbreaks) might force change, but so far, this has not been enough (36:48).
  • Brandy Zadrozny:

    "I often think about what's going to be the thing that gets Kennedy tossed out. And we thought it might be measles at first ... But, like, what is going to do it? ... there’s not much that Kennedy could say or do to lose Trump’s backing at this moment." (36:48)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Misinformation:

  “Let’s get our medical advice from doctors and nurses, not from politicians and trial lawyers, and certainly not from people who have an interest in suing vaccine manufacturers.”
  — Dr. Tom Frieden (25:18)

• On the State of the CDC:

  "We're seeing, really, a wholesale destruction of our health protections."
  — Dr. Tom Frieden (11:41)

• On Pseudoscience in Policy:

  “This is a fire hose of falsehoods we’re seeing. Just every sentence, it seems there’s another piece of nonsense spread.”
  — Dr. Tom Frieden (22:24)

• On Hope vs. Pessimism:

  “Facts are stubborn things and people want to be healthy. ... There’s still a lot of great work going on by doctors and nurses and the people who have stayed at CDC toughing it out to protect Americans, because that’s what CDC does...”
  — Dr. Tom Frieden (47:08)

  “I have a much less rosy outlook ... the actual inverse happened and [anti-vaccine forces] gained political power. ... If you think they’re going to just let go of that power or have it taken away from them gently, I just don’t see it. ... Children are going to be the victims of this.”
  — Brandy Zadrozny (47:24)

• On Preventative Health:

  "There are six things that virtually everyone can do, and they're within reach...control your blood pressure, control your lipids, get good physical activity ... get seven to nine hours of sleep ... avoid toxins like tobacco and alcohol, and eat healthier."
  — Dr. Tom Frieden (45:48)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Tylenol and Autism Myths Debunked: 03:42–07:11
• What Causes Autism? 07:13–08:26
• RFK Jr. Firing CDC Leadership: 08:26–11:41
• CDC Exodus and Anti-Vax Appointments: 11:41–16:47
• ACIP and Medical Association Boycotts: 16:44–18:01
• Threats to Vaccine Delivery: 20:53–22:18
• Hepatitis B Vaccine Delays: 24:14–25:10
• Lawsuits & State Policy Attacks: 32:12–34:38
• Mississippi Exemption Story: 33:28–34:38
• Brandy’s & Dr. Frieden’s Outlooks: 47:08–48:38

Conclusion

This episode serves as a sobering indictment of how fringe anti-vaccine crusaders have seized the levers of American health policy, putting thousands of children's lives at risk and undermining generations of public health progress. Guests Dr. Tom Frieden and Brandy Zadrozny offer both historical context and an urgent warning, agreeing that the erosion of science in public policy will ultimately meet resistance—and perhaps eventual correction—but not before significant damage occurs. Dr. Frieden ends with guarded optimism, while Zadrozny’s realistic pessimism puts the onus on society to recognize the unfolding crisis before tragedy strikes.