Dr. Tom Frieden and Brandy Zadrozny on RFK Jr. and the CDC

Summary

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The Al Franken Podcast

Episode: Dr. Tom Frieden and Brandy Zadrozny on RFK Jr. and the CDC
Date: September 28, 2025

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Overview

This episode tackles the far-reaching consequences of Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s radically anti-vaccine leadership at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and Health and Human Services, along with former President Trump’s enthusiastic embrace of anti-vaccine rhetoric. Al Franken brings together Dr. Tom Frieden (former CDC Director) and Brandy Zadrozny (NBC News investigative reporter) for a frank discussion on the politicization of vaccine policy, the undermining of public health institutions, the departure of career CDC staff, and how pseudoscience now shapes federal health policy. The episode also explores what is at stake for childhood vaccination, public trust, and the nation’s health.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Spread of Vaccine Misinformation by Political Leaders

• Trump’s Rhetoric & Tylenol-Autism Connection (03:42–07:11):
  Trump has echoed and amplified debunked claims by RFK Jr., such as warning pregnant women against Tylenol due to a supposed link to autism—a claim opposed by all reputable scientific studies.

  • Dr. Frieden:

    “If you have a fever, it’s important to bring it down. And guess which medicine is safest? Tylenol, acetaminophen.” (04:43)

  • Brandy Zadrozny:

    “It’s really hard to prove a negative...science rarely says, like, there is absolutely no way that this has no cause. Right? ...the overwhelming sort of the science that we do have seems to suggest that...if you take a Tylenol while you’re pregnant, your child will not have autism.” (04:04)

  • Swedish Study Reference:
    Dr. Frieden describes a study with 2.5 million Swedish children tracked over 20 years, which found “no association between Tylenol and autism.” (05:32–07:11)

2. What Really Causes Autism? (07:13–08:26)

• The increase in autism diagnoses is largely due to broadened definitions and better recognition, not a true surge in cases. The real contributors are multiple genetic factors, parental age, and folate deficiency; “we really don’t know” all causes.

3. RFK Jr.’s Takeover and Gutting of the CDC (08:26–13:54)

• Susan Menarrez Firing:
  Kennedy fired CDC head Susan Menarrez after just 29 days for refusing to rubber-stamp his proposed vaccine schedule without data (09:43–11:41).
  • Brandy Zadrozny:

    “He [RFK Jr.] brought her in and basically said...rubber stamp approve everything that’s gonna come out of this next ACIP panel...she said, ‘let me see the data’...he said, ‘no, I’m not going to show you that’...and then, ‘I want you to fire all the senior CDC staff for no cause.’” (09:51)

• Mass Exodus of CDC Staff:
  Up to 20% of CDC staff—mainly career scientists and leaders—have left, resulting in “the wholesale destruction of our health protections.” (11:41–12:41)
  • Dr. Frieden:

    “2000 staff at CDC let go. Half of CDC’s centers...” (11:41)

4. Anti-Vaccine Activists in Key Positions (13:08–16:47)

• ACIP Stack with Deniers:
  ACIP (the advisory committee that sets vaccine recommendations) has new members—some espousing anti-vaccine views and conspiracy theories (13:08–14:13).
  • Dr. Frieden:

    “These are folks who either have longstanding anti-vaccine views, ...some of them...certain that vaccines cause autism—which has been repeatedly studied in millions of children. No evidence for that.” (13:08)

• Medical Community Response:
  Major groups (American Academy of Pediatrics, insurers) now refuse to participate in or recognize ACIP as a credible body—the first time in history. (16:44–17:46)
  • Dr. Frieden:

    "It's really unprecedented. You have the Doctors association saying we're not going to follow what ACIP says anymore...This has never happened before." (17:08)

• Should Medical Professionals Abstain or Engage?
  • Dr. Frieden:

    “I think it’s always better to speak up respectfully...because the folks who are preying on people’s concerns are not making those concerns up. Those concerns are real.” (18:01)

5. Policy Changes and Threats to Childhood Vaccination

• Access to Vaccines Jeopardized:
  Covid and other vaccine access may become restricted, and key childhood vaccine recommendations (e.g., Hepatitis B at birth) are under threat (20:53–24:14).

  • Dr. Frieden:

    “You can still get vaccinations in most places, but there may be barriers and we may see more of those coming up. So this is kind of just the start of disrupting...our safety net that protects us.” (21:39)

  • Brandy Zadrozny:

    “He has installed pretty quietly the original architects of the anti-vaccine movement within HHS and CDC...” (29:19)

• Hepatitis B Controversy:
  The administration attempted to delay the Hepatitis B newborn shot, which could directly lead to the deaths of thousands of American children annually (24:14–25:10).

  • Dr. Frieden:

    "It was on the agenda, and then it was postponed indefinitely...if followed, it kind of provably will result in that [deaths]." (24:14)

6. Lawsuits, State Policies, and the Legal Attack on Vaccines (32:12–34:38)

• Key Players:
  RFK Jr., Aaron Siri (leading anti-vaccine lawyer), and others behind legal/lobbying efforts to weaken vaccine requirements and protections nationwide.
  • Dr. Frieden:

    “It’s not just lawsuits, it’s also hundreds and hundreds of laws at the state level to roll back vaccine protections.” (32:44)

• Mississippi Example:
  After decades as the top state for child vaccination (due to strict rules), Mississippi rolled back exemptions after legal pressure from anti-vaccine activists (33:28–34:38).
  • Brandy Zadrozny:

    “A group of parents ... brought in Aaron Sery. ... introduced this law, sued the state ... and he won because the Republican attorney general refused to fight the lawsuit...so now Mississippi children are less protected.” (33:28)

7. RFK Jr.’s Focus and Network

• Priorities:
  Indian Health Service (protected, used as “punishment” outposts for disfavored CDC staff), and vaccine policy (installation of anti-vax ideologues in key federal health roles) (29:19–31:34).
• Refusal to Consult Experts:
  Kennedy and staff not consulting CDC vaccine experts at all—a “pretty surprising” abdication (31:34).

8. What Will It Take to Break the Deadlock? (36:20–37:54)

• Will Kennedy’s Tenure End?
  Hope that public outrage over child deaths (e.g., from measles outbreaks) might force change, but so far, this has not been enough (36:48).
  • Brandy Zadrozny:

    "I often think about what's going to be the thing that gets Kennedy tossed out. And we thought it might be measles at first ... But, like, what is going to do it? ... there’s not much that Kennedy could say or do to lose Trump’s backing at this moment." (36:48)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Misinformation:

  “Let’s get our medical advice from doctors and nurses, not from politicians and trial lawyers, and certainly not from people who have an interest in suing vaccine manufacturers.”
  — Dr. Tom Frieden (25:18)

• On the State of the CDC:

  "We're seeing, really, a wholesale destruction of our health protections."
  — Dr. Tom Frieden (11:41)

• On Pseudoscience in Policy:

  “This is a fire hose of falsehoods we’re seeing. Just every sentence, it seems there’s another piece of nonsense spread.”
  — Dr. Tom Frieden (22:24)

• On Hope vs. Pessimism:

  “Facts are stubborn things and people want to be healthy. ... There’s still a lot of great work going on by doctors and nurses and the people who have stayed at CDC toughing it out to protect Americans, because that’s what CDC does...”
  — Dr. Tom Frieden (47:08)

  “I have a much less rosy outlook ... the actual inverse happened and [anti-vaccine forces] gained political power. ... If you think they’re going to just let go of that power or have it taken away from them gently, I just don’t see it. ... Children are going to be the victims of this.”
  — Brandy Zadrozny (47:24)

• On Preventative Health:

  "There are six things that virtually everyone can do, and they're within reach...control your blood pressure, control your lipids, get good physical activity ... get seven to nine hours of sleep ... avoid toxins like tobacco and alcohol, and eat healthier."
  — Dr. Tom Frieden (45:48)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Tylenol and Autism Myths Debunked: 03:42–07:11
• What Causes Autism? 07:13–08:26
• RFK Jr. Firing CDC Leadership: 08:26–11:41
• CDC Exodus and Anti-Vax Appointments: 11:41–16:47
• ACIP and Medical Association Boycotts: 16:44–18:01
• Threats to Vaccine Delivery: 20:53–22:18
• Hepatitis B Vaccine Delays: 24:14–25:10
• Lawsuits & State Policy Attacks: 32:12–34:38
• Mississippi Exemption Story: 33:28–34:38
• Brandy’s & Dr. Frieden’s Outlooks: 47:08–48:38

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Conclusion

This episode serves as a sobering indictment of how fringe anti-vaccine crusaders have seized the levers of American health policy, putting thousands of children's lives at risk and undermining generations of public health progress. Guests Dr. Tom Frieden and Brandy Zadrozny offer both historical context and an urgent warning, agreeing that the erosion of science in public policy will ultimately meet resistance—and perhaps eventual correction—but not before significant damage occurs. Dr. Frieden ends with guarded optimism, while Zadrozny’s realistic pessimism puts the onus on society to recognize the unfolding crisis before tragedy strikes.

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Transcript

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[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Hey everybody, we got a great one today, you know.

[Podcast Producer or Co-host]

Finally, my two first time guests are Tom Frieden, former director of the center for Disease Control and Prevention, and Brandy Zadrozny, investigative journalist and reporter with NBC, NBC News and MSNBC, who's been reporting on the CDC and RFK Jr. S leadership of Health and Human Services.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

It may not come as a surprise.

[Podcast Producer or Co-host]

To you, but Kennedy is leading the charge against vaccinations and their alleged link to autism, something that science doesn't agree with, but a large part of the MAGA base does. And Trump believes that Kennedy helped him win the election. That's why Trump took a leadership role last week, exhorting pregnant women not to take Tylenol. As Dr. Frieden says, that is totally against the science and potentially dangerous to the baby. Why Trump feels the need to inject himself into these things, I don't know. Remember when he urged Americans to inject bleach to kill Covid inside their bodies? Biden brought that up during the 2020 debates.

[Donald Trump (quoted)]

And by the way, maybe you could inject some bleach in your arm and that would take care of it. This is the same man I said sarcastic. That would have said sarcastic. So here's the deal.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

So that was the. That was him in the debate, and this is him when he supposedly was being sarcastic, Right?

[Donald Trump (quoted)]

And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection, inside, or almost a cleaning? Because you see, it gets on the lungs, and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it'd be interesting to check that so that you're going to have to use medical doctors with. But it sounds. It sounds interesting to me.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Hmm. That didn't sound so sarcastic to me. Well, right now, Trump is all aboard.

[Podcast Producer or Co-host]

The RFK junior Train, and it's a dangerous train indeed for Americans who will not be getting their shots.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

So take a listen to my conversation.

[Podcast Producer or Co-host]

With Tom Frieden and Brandy Zadrozny. It's a great one.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

You know, for a change.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

We'Re going.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

To talk a lot about Bobby Kennedy Jr. But let's talk.

[Podcast Producer or Co-host]

Let's go to Trump first.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Injecting himself into this stuff, he contradicted mainstream medical consensus and announced that Tylenol.

[Podcast Producer or Co-host]

Is tied to autism.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Brandy, you covered this story. He said a pregnant woman taking Tylenol can be associated with increased risk of autism. That's not true.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

Right.

[Brandy Zadrozny]

Well, I think we should let Dr. Frieden handle whatever. I will say it's like, it's really hard to prove a negative. Like, this is why, like, these folks, Kennedy especially kind of lives in this area where, like, science is science and science rarely says, like, there is absolutely no way that this has no cause. Right. That doesn't cause whatever. And so he lives in that area and he's like, well, then prove that it doesn't. It's like, well, that's not how it works. So I think the overwhelming sort of the science that we do have seems to suggest that. That, no, if you take a Tylenol while you're pregnant, your child will not have autism.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

I would make that a little more nuanced. I would say, first off that we know that fever and pain lead to worse birth outcomes. Therefore, the advice to women to tough it out is really bad advice. And the big advice I would give is don't get your medical advice from politicians or lawyers and get it from doctors. And what a doctor, an obstetrician, will tell a pregnant woman is, if you have a fever, it's important to bring it down. And guess which medicine is safest. Tylenol, acetaminophen. To do that, safer than aspirin, safer than ibuprofen or Motrin.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Now, JAMA did a study of 2.5 million Swedish women. Is that it?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

Yep, that's the study. That's the one. So it's a really interesting study and it comes to what I call technical rigor. And I'm going to admit this right up front. I've got a book coming out in the formula for better health. And this is one of the key themes. If you have bad science and bad studies, you can apparently show a relationship that's not really there. And there are studies that suggest a slight increase in risk of autism among women who had Tylenol in the cord blood at birth or who had exposures to Tylenol. And some studies do show that association. But when you're talking about real science, you have to look rigorously at the best science. And that Swedish study is amazing. It's amazing. They studied 2.5 million kids for 20 years. And they studied them what's called prospectively, which means they collected information by midwives, structured interview in the first trimester of pregnancy, and then they followed the kids. And because it's Sweden, they basically followed virtually everyone. And they didn't just find that there is no real association between Tylenol and autism. They found that if you don't correct for what's called a sibling effect, it looks like there's a relationship. So not only did they show that based on the best available evidence today, there is no association between Tylenol and autism, but they showed that the studies that have found that are almost certainly wrong.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

I guess I should have gone to you first.

[Brandy Zadrozny]

See, better.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

I mean, something causes autism. What does cause autism?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

We really don't know. It is complicated. First off, how much is autism increasing? A lot of the increase is because we're diagnosing it better, were defining it differently. So a lot of the increase isn't a real increase in the condition. It's an increase in recognition and diagnosis. But cdc, the agency that gets maligned by the current health secretary, cdc, has for decades done rigorous studies. So we actually know that it is true that autism is actually increasing, and we don't know why. We do know that there are many different genetic contributors to autism. And we do know that there are a couple of things that do increase the risk. One is folate deficiency. The second is increasing parental age, which is just a trend currently. There's another theory, which is what's called assortative mating, which is that, like, people are increasingly having children together. And that's another theory.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Okay. Now, we started talking about Secretary Kennedy and his views on his cdc. He fired his cdc. Susan Menarez. Is that how you pronounce her name?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

Yep.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

What was it? Short of a month, right?

[Brandy Zadrozny]

Yes, 29 days.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

I think there was a hearing in which Kennedy said why he fired her. You know what I'm talking about?

[Brandy Zadrozny]

Craziest moment. I mean, it's so hard to qualify. There's so many superlatives each time.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Can we play the third Warren audio?

[Brandy Zadrozny]

Can you tell the head of the CDC that if she refused to sign off on your changes to the childhood vaccine schedule that she had to resign?

[Donald Trump (quoted)]

No, I told her that she had to resign because I asked her, are you a trustworthy person?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

And she said no.

[Brandy Zadrozny]

Sounds believable, but it sounds like a conversation that totally happened.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Yeah, I mean, I can still see.

[Brandy Zadrozny]

Bernie's face, actually, when. Because he was sitting next to Warren when he said this and it was just like, what? There's no way that that conversation happened in that, in the way that you're describing it.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Okay, I'm assuming that Susan Menar is. Didn't say that she was untrustworthy. What was her side of the story?

[Brandy Zadrozny]

According to her testimony at a later hearing, he brought her in and basically said two things. One, he said, I want you to rubber stamp approve everything that's gonna come out of this next ACIP panel, this vaccine recommendation federal committee hearing. And she said, well, let me see what they're gonna say. Like, let me see the data that's gonna support what you think they're gonna say or what they're gonna recommend. And he said, no, I'm not going to show you that. There's apparently nothing to show. And she said, well, I can't do that until I see the data. And he said, oh, yes. And by the way, the senior CDC officials that are basically right under you, that run cdc, I want you to fire all of them for no cause, or these.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

The people who pick the vaccines.

[Brandy Zadrozny]

The panel is the federal panel that recommends to the cdc. And those recommendations are usually adopted. And they become really important because it's. Those recommendations are important for what insurance covers, what the vaccines for children's program covers. It's sort of like a. It's just a very, very important piece of the vaccine infrastructure in this country.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

What is the group that designates which vaccines are used?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

The acip.

[Brandy Zadrozny]

Yeah, yeah, that's the acip. And the people she wanted to fire are the people Dr. Demetri.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

Daskalakis.

[Brandy Zadrozny]

Daskalakis. Thank you. And two other officials that were basically like running CDC. They were the heads, very respected within CDC. That was a really shocking moment that I think you probably remember. Like when they left cdc, everybody did the walkout, right? And came and clapped. That was just like an earth shattering moment. He wanted all those people fired. She said no. So they resigned in protest.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

I'm actually not sure who he wanted fired. But those three resigned in protest. Whether it was only those, whether it was those, whether it was more. But what we're seeing really is a wholesale destruction of our health protections. 2000 staff at CDC let go. Half of CDC's centers.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

2000 staff let go, yes. Out of how many?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

Well, depends on how you count. A little more than 10,000, so almost 20%.

[Brandy Zadrozny]

And it's important to know the ones that have left are often the career. The ones that took an early buyout are people that were there for, you know, sometimes decades who were really like do and just said, I can't take this anymore, I'm too old for this, or I did not sign up for this, or I know I can't do good work, or it's close to my retirement. Like all of these things played in, but they're losing. I would, I mean, and I'll let Dr. Frieden say if I'm wrong here, but it seems to me they're losing some of the brightest minds and strongest leaders that really made the CDC what it was.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

I will say one slight positive note. I went through the ACIP meeting and the CDC presentations there were still fantastic. And I know some of the people giving them, they're really dedicated scientists, they're at the top of their game and they gave great presentations. And, and then you heard crazy questions and questioning who are the people who.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

He chose to be on the ACIP who chose them?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

These are folks who either have longstanding anti vaccine views, have been some of the main purveyors of misinformation, not all of them, but some of them, and have stated things like that they're certain that vaccines cause autism, which has been repeatedly studied in millions of children. And there's no evidence for that. So it's really a striking thing. I guess one of the things I think we have to think about is what are some of the underlying motivations? Because if RFK junior Trial lawyer who sues companies and makes money from it, has a credible argument that vaccines cause autism, there's a lot of kids with autism in the US and the vaccine makers have deep pockets. That's a lot of money. And then there are lawsuits.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Did he ever bring suit against a vaccine?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

Yes. Yes. Well, he consulted for companies that did and he has refused to not take the money. He says, oh, I won't take the money, I'll give it to my son. If we make money from that. Oh, because that's not a conflict of interest, right?

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Well, could he give it to my son? That Would be less of a conflict of interest for him, I would think. Okay, so he has made money doing this practice? Basically, yes. Okay. Were you at the ACIP meeting, Randy?

[Brandy Zadrozny]

No, I was not in Atlanta. I watched it on YouTube like you.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Watched it on YouTube?

[Brandy Zadrozny]

I did, yeah.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

How contentious was it?

[Brandy Zadrozny]

I mean it's hard to say contentious with it was. CDC staff are so professional in the midst of all of this insanity. I'm really like I've been trying to channel them just in my day to day life, just very professional, always about the facts. They don't seem to get their feathers ruffled. But the hearing overall was very contentious because you did have on the line and you had the medical associations, now you had these medical associations and they were saying like, I am only here for our patients and I am only here for the facts. Like right out of the gate. They made that very clear. And so as the hearing progressed, like Dr. Fruden said, you had questions that were asked that were seemingly like not scientific, not something you'd usually hear at an AIDSIP meeting. Sort of like wild sort of conspiracy theory laden questions about vaccines causing harm. And at one point there is this one member, this one panel member who is a professor, I think of mathematics and of like organization, not in any medical field or not a doctor, not a scientist like that. But he became sort of a Covid truther. He has this tweet up or this X post up where he says that vaccines are deadly and they're killing young people and we have to take them off the market. Well now he's on the ace of panel. And so at one point he said something like, well, we have to be very scientific and science is the most important thing. Very, very Robert F. Kennedy of him, you know, saying the gold standard science words that mean nothing to them. And I guess somebody was unmuted and they just said idiot. It was this moment that like sort of voiced what everybody was probably thinking in that meeting. But it was. That's kind of characteristic for how people were feeling. And I will say like the, the AAP didn't even come. So they said, they've said that the proceedings there are illegitimate. So which sort of gives you an idea and they're making their own vaccine recommendations.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Who didn't come?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

American association of Pediatrics.

[Brandy Zadrozny]

The AAP didn't come at all. And there. And they were sort of like, there's a really interesting like train of thought here. And that I think is important and I don't know the answer to it, but there are some Groups like the American Academy of Pediatrics that are is no longer entertaining ACIP as a cred or CDC as a credible body.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

But, but they are the cred. I mean, they are the body who makes the determination.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

You know, I think you've, you've made a real important point, which is look at what they do, not what they say. They say they want to restore trust. And yet RFK Jr and some of the people who are now on this committee are the main purveyors of disinformation and distrust with a bunch of debunked, dangerous, frankly deadly theories. And it's really unprecedented. You have the Doctors association saying we're not going to follow what ACIP says anymore. And you have the insurers saying, you know something, we don't want our insured people getting sick because that's really expensive. So we're not going to follow. We're not what the new A CIP says. This has never happened before.

[Brandy Zadrozny]

Can I ask you that question though, Dr. Friedan? And I'm curious, is it better to abstain and delegitimize something that's not legitimate or is it better to go and have your voice heard and fight back within the institution?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

I think it's always better to speak up respectfully. One of the things we've found is, is that it is really important to listen because the folks who are preying on people's concerns are not making those concerns up. Those concerns are real. Parents are concerned they can't get good access to healthcare. 100 million Americans don't have access to primary care. It's absurd. We spend $4 trillion on healthcare and we can't get the basic thing. Our healthcare system is so messed up and driven by profit instead of health.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Okay, we're going to take a quick break.

[Podcast Producer or Co-host]

We'll be right back with Tom Frieden and Brandy Zadrozny. You know what doesn't belong in your summer plans? Getting burned by your wireless bill. While you're planning beach trips, barbecues and three day weekends, your wireless bill should be the last thing holding you back. With Mint Mobile, you can get the coverage and speed you're used to, but for way less and for a limited time, Mint mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. So while your friends are sweating over data overages and surprise charges, you'll be chilling. Literally and financially. Well, maybe not literally, but financially. Say bye bye to your overpriced wireless plan's jaw dropping monthly bills and unexpected overages. Mint Mobile is here to rescue you. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. Ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of unlimited service with Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. You've got a lot of options and Mint Mobile is an affordable choice. Compare Mint Mobile's wireless service with your current provider and see how much you could be saving with Mint Mobile this year. Skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com Franken that's mintmobile.com Franken Upfront payment of $45 required equivalent of $14 a month limited time. New customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

And we are back with Tom Frieden and Brandy Zadrozny. What's going to happen in terms of availability of vaccinations? I mean, that's kind of the next question here because it was, you know, before we people, would you go to the pharmacy and get a free shot? Is that gonna be happening or not?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

So far it's with a minor exception that's. Well, a minor exception and a moderate exception that's kind of preserved. The moderate exception is still very confusing and for grabs today, which is Covid vaccination for healthy young adults. Now, I mean, we can go as deep as you want on this, but.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

If you're under 64 or so or under 65.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

Yeah. And you don't have any underlying conditions. The FDA didn't authorize it, but then the CDC recommended under what's called shared clinical decision making. In other words, talk with a health professional. In some states of the U.S. that may mean you can't get it at the pharmacy, but most states are doing the same thing that pediatricians and the obstetricians did, which means. Which is we're ignoring this because it doesn't make sense. And so you can still get vaccinations in most places, but there may be barriers and we may see more of those coming up. So this is kind of just the start of disrupting not bad things, but disrupting our safety net that protects us.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

There are controversies about specific vaccines and when to take them.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

Like Hep B. Oh my goodness. You know, this is a fire hose of falsehoods we're seeing Just every sentence, it seems there's another piece of nonsense spread, the latest being, oh, kids shouldn't get the Hep B vaccine. Cause it's a sexual. Hepatitis B is a sexually transmitted disease, and therefore it doesn't make any sense to give it to newborns, wait till they're 12 or wait till they're 4 or 5. It's totally wrong.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

A mother can have a sexually transmitted disease, right?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

Well, the mother.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

I'm not a doctor, so, you know.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

So the mother passes it to the infant. That's called perinatal transmission. It's quite common. So if you don't vaccinate the infant before the U.S. did that, between 10 and 20,000 kids in this country got this viral infection every year, and about a quarter of them will die from it. So you're talking about thousands of American kids dying if they change this recommendation and the groups follow their change or they disallow it for certain groups. And this is based on, really theories that have absolutely no evidence.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

So what we're talking about is whether to give a newborn a B shot, right?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

Absolutely.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Okay, so. And then. And that's the controversy here. And I know that Senator Cassidy of Louisiana is a liver doctor, right?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

He is. He is. He feels very passionately about this.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

And I think he's the one who cast the vote that made Kennedy the. You know, gave him the job.

[Brandy Zadrozny]

Yeah. His vote brought it out of the HELP committee and allowed it to be voted on the Senate floor. And that's how he got.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Jesus.

[Brandy Zadrozny]

I know. It's so disappointing.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

And so are they going to give newborns the Hep B job?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

They didn't. It was on the agenda, and then it was postponed indefinitely. And the first rumor was that it was postponed because maybe some people within the administration thought it's not a good idea to pass policies that are going to result in the deaths of thousands of American children. And it kind of provably will result in that if followed. And then yesterday it came out, no, no, it was postponed because one of the members of the committee wanted to delay the birth dose till 12, not till age 4, which would be even more dangerous. So you're seeing basically the hijacking of cdc, the hijacking of this very important group that has been setting vaccine policy that has prevented billions of dollars of healthcare costs, prevented disability and deaths for the last 35 years, 40 years, 60 years for the committee, 40 years for the Vaccines for Children program.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

So this is a nightmare. And Trump also weighed in on the schedule of vaccines, didn't he?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

Yes. And on Tylenol and on other issues as well. You know, I would just go back to the basic point. Let's get our medical advice from doctors and nurses, not from politicians and trial lawyers, and certainly not from people who have an interest in suing vaccine manufacturers. Not that I think vaccine manufacturers are blameless. I think they charge way too much for their vaccines. But the fact is that if you allow lawsuits based on no actual data of harm, you really mess up the ability of companies to behave responsibly and function effectively in this country.

[Brandy Zadrozny]

Trump's comments were super unhinged, but also really interesting because it showed, I think for the first time there was some questions about, like, what Trump really believed. And, you know, he. He brought in Kennedy early on, before his first term or during his first term, because he was going to make him remember the vaccine committee chair for safe vaccines or something or other. And he brought. He brought Kennedy in and he had a meeting with the transition team. And they came out of that meeting saying, this guy is nuts. He cannot be anywhere near this administration. They were trying to, like, be, you know, buttoned up. They were trying to be real. No one thought they would win, and they did. And they're like, we can't have this guy. And so they booted him out. And now, not only we always knew that Trump thought, because he had tweets about, like, autism and vaccines, we knew that he sort of thought that, but we really didn't understand, like, the length to which he believed in this stuff. And now that press conference just showed two things. One, he seems to really believe this stuff, like, believe it wholeheartedly. And two is that he is embracing what Kennedy has spent the last 10 years building, which is turning the anti vaccine movement really into a political movement, building Maha. And he wants Maha desperately. And so Trump was even saying he sort of took the mantle from RFK at that press conference. You saw Kennedy was standing behind him almost dejected. It looked like he just looked so sad. And. And Trump said, I'm sorry, I know that Kennedy wants to go slower, but I'm forging ahead. And then all of the sort of Maha minions are now like, yay. You know, Trump's really behind Maha. He's really leading Maha. He's going even further than Kennedy. So it's just this really interesting time that, like, Trump has sort of stolen Maha from Kennedy now with his, like, insane comments.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

How much of Maha is the vaccine stuff and how much is other stuff?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

You know, it's a very broad group. So you have A lot of people who are legitimately concerned, again, look what they do, not what they say. So he says he's interested or concerned about environmental contamination. But what has this administration done? They've rolled back the reduction of forever chemicals like PFAS in our water. So that was gonna be phased out sooner. They're pushing it way back to be phased out later. They've rolled back protections against mercury and arsenic that have gone in. One of the things that kills a lot of people in country is soot, what's called PM2.5. They've rolled back regulation of that and they've ended the CDC program for tobacco control and rolled back the FDA efforts to reduce tobacco harms. So they say they want to stop chronic disease, but they eliminate the programs that are intended to address chronic disease. They say they want to reduce environmental contamination, but they're allowing more environmental contamination contamination.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

And of course, at the un, Trump said that climate change is the biggest hoax ever. And that means we're going away from renewables on our energy and we're going to be using more oil and gas and fossil fuel, which kills people, right?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

Well, it causes PM2.5 pollution and other pollution. And yes, that results in. The estimate is for the US about 100,000 deaths a year currently.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Okay, so make America healthy again.

[Brandy Zadrozny]

The things in terms of like what Kennedy cares about, we can see through, you know, his, his policies, what he's doing right now and then just his activities and it's, it's. He cares about the Indian Health Service. He has long envisioned himself as a friend to Native American groups. And so for whatever reason, that is something that's really important to him. He has gone to Alaska. He's done a lot with. That's like the Indian Health Services was the one thing he didn't cut immediately when came on. And not only that, the people that he didn't like, the CDC officials that he didn't like, he actually sent them to the Indian Health Service. He's like, you are all going to go to these specific outposts. That was kind of like their punishment. The other thing that he cares about are vaccines. He has fired everyone or just refused to listen to anyone who counters him on vaccines. And what he has done is, it's really remarkable. He has installed pretty quietly the original architects of the anti vaccine movement within HHS and cdc. So you have Geier, the researcher who brought us the terrible science about vaccines, who literally got in trouble with a state health board for acting as a doctor because he and his father were running experiments on autistic children, giving them puberty blockers, which apparently the GOP is supposed to hate this now, but ran experiments giving autistic children puberty blockers. He's now in CDC torturing data to try to uncover some autism vaccine risk. Lynn Redwood, the mother, the autism mother who started Safe Minds, an anti vaccine advocacy group. Stephanie Spear, who long worked for Children's Health Defense is his number one deputy. Like he has surrounded himself with these anti vaccine people and it's the only people that he's speaking to. He said it in Congress, they said who are you talking to if not the CDC officials? And he said, bill Thompson. Bill Thompson is a long time CDC guy. He's worked with data, he is a scientist, but he's the so called whistleblower and one of the longest running anti vaccine conspiracy theories. He's still in CDC and this is his advisor. So it's just he's running the anti vaccine movement from within the cdc. That is what he cares about.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

I think one of the things that surprised me most is that Deb Howery, who was running the CDC for a while, she was one of the three who resigned. Deb said on a public newscast that I was on with her that at no point did Kennedy or his staff get briefed by the vaccine experts at cdc. There was no interest in hearing what these people who are the world's experts in this have to say because they believe it's all wrong or whatever. But that was pretty surprising.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

That's amazing.

[Brandy Zadrozny]

And Monarz too, when she was testifying recently said that one more thing she was asked to do. Kennedy asked Monarz, the head of the CDC at the time. Oh, Jesus, said, I want you to meet with Aaron Seri, which is again the most prominent anti vaccine lawyer we have here. And really I call him, you know, Kennedy's the name behind the anti vaccine movement. This guy is the brains. The way he has demolished vaccine policy in this country through lawsuits has been really something to watch.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

It's not just lawsuits, it's also hundreds and hundreds of laws at the state level to roll back vaccine protections.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

We had a couple states have done that, like Georgia and Florida or something or might just.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

There's various things happening, but below the radar. That's Florida. The Surgeon general has said some very unscientific, unproven things about COVID vaccine and vaccines more generally. But dozens and dozens of states have had literally hundreds of laws introduced. And you know, these can slip through in a quiet legislative session easily. That would basically chip away at vaccine policy and vaccine protections.

[Brandy Zadrozny]

And then the other thing is that, you know, Aaron Seri and just these groups in general are behind the lawsuits and the state actions that have tried to loosen vaccine exemptions for school children within states. So like Mississippi. I love this story and hate this story. Mississippi is about last in almost every measurable health, health outcome except when it came to vaccines. When it came to vaccines, they were always number one, the most, they had the most percentage of children who got vaccinated because so many of their kids went to public schools and because they had no exemptions, like you could not be exempt for anything but a medical reason and which is very, very rare. What happened? Well, a group of parents that had been unsuccessful lobbying their legislatures for to make this change brought in Aaron Sery. And Aaron Seri went and he introduced this law, sued the state, basically saying that we should have exemptions, sued the state and he won because the Republican attorney general refused to fight the lawsuit. And so that just passed. And so now Mississippi children are less protected.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Unbelievable.

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[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

So basically, we're stuck with this for three plus years, right?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

We'll see. You're a better judge of that than I am.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

No, I'm not.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

I do think ultimately people do want to be healthy and facts are stubborn things. And this constant spreading of incorrect, unscientific false statements ultimately will catch up, I think.

[Brandy Zadrozny]

I often think about what's going to be the thing that gets Kennedy tossed out. And we thought it might be measles at first, right? Because we heard that Trump did not like kids dying of measles. That that was not a popular thing within the White House. People were like, you know, quit it with the kids dying of measles. And so, like, that wasn't a popular thing. But that has. We haven't had any more dead children. Children in a while. And so maybe that he got off free for that. But, like, what is going to do it? And that press conference, to me, seemed to suggest that there's not much that Kennedy could say or do to lose Trump's backing at this moment.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

So. Yeah, so he's with us for the.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

Long haul here, at least until the midterms.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Well, I, you know, he won't be blamed for any midterms, and we don't know if there'll be what those midterms will be like.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

So who knows? Week is a long time in politics, but a day is a long time in health.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

So let's talk about your book for a second.

[Podcast Producer or Co-host]

The Formula for Better Health. How to save millions of lives, including your own.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

This is about saving lives?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

It is. I started writing this 10 years ago at the height of the Ebola epidemic in West Africa, when it became really clear to me that people don't know what public health is, don't understand why it's important.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Now, Ebola, of course, was your biggest crisis.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

It was, it was. It was the world's first epidemic, and it almost got really out of control, and it caused a lot of political consternation in the US it happened to be at its peak during the midterms here, so it was a tough time, but ultimately really heroic. CDC staff, hundreds and hundreds of staff, spent thousands of hours, went to every community in all three countries where Ebola was spreading, helped trace every contact, work with every organization, support healthcare, support the tracking and really with the frontline work, not primarily of CDC staff, but of the frontline workers in West Africa, the epidemic was stopped, but it got really out of control and it shut whole health systems and it caused huge problems. And it shows that we really are all connected. There were cases in this country that was spread in one hospital in Texas.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Texas. That was somebody. They treated him wrong.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

Yeah, the patient came in, they missed the diagnosis. He came back deathly ill and highly infectious. They didn't have the right kind of gowns and gloves for the nurses. And two of the nurses became infected. Both of them survived. Fortunately, sadly, the patient himself died. But it made it clear we are vulnerable to these things.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

But I think the CDC did an amazing job.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

So there, you know, you never get it all right. Right. You never get everything right. But CDC did surge to every community where this was spreading in West Africa, to every hospital that had cases in the US and improved detection, management.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Would it have made any difference if you been head of CDC or the Democratic administration been head of cdc in terms of our response to Covid, in terms of our presence in China, in terms of. Would that have made a difference? Unserving for you to say?

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

I can't speculate, but I can say some of the things that would have been different. I'm sure one is the Trump administration had pulled back on CDC presence in China. When I was CDC director, we had a big unit there. It was a collaboration. And at one point there was a new strain of flu that emerged and the CDC disease detectives and the Chinese disease detectives were working side by side on that and they stopped it. Now, would that have happened with COVID No way to know. Pretty hard to have controlled it in retrospect. But you don't know the second thing that was really problematic. And I talk about this in the book. There's a formula for better health that has been proven to save millions of lives, can save millions more, including your own. And it has to do with. With seeing that you can see the threats that are coming, believing you can change them and creating a healthier future. And part of that creating a healthier future is organizing well in an emergency. And what was so striking in all of 2020 was that there was no organization at the White House. You had the White House, hhs, fema, Covid coordinator, you had president's son in law, all doing different things. And it was very chaotic and it showed. And the irony is that my organization resolved to save lives. We were working in more than 15 countries in Africa to help them set up these, what's called an incident management system. And they were working really well. So it was really hard to see this not happening in the US While it was happening, and we were helping it happen elsewhere.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Remember, he said that the problem was, when I got here, the shelves were empty. And the thing is, he'd been there for, like, before it hit. He had been there for three years. He could have filled the shelves.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

I mean, the other thing that was really problematic in the first Trump administration and that, frankly, I think the Biden administration didn't get entirely right either, was communication. CDC wrote the playbook on how to communicate in an emergency. Be first, be right, be credible, be empathetic, give people practical, proven things to do. The Trump administration basically violated every single one of those. And, and they also politicized the vaccines by saying, this will be our accomplishment. Now, they deserve a lot of credit for Operation Warp Speed. They may not want to talk about it for whatever reason, but it shows that government can work, work well with the private sector.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

He deserves a Nobel Prize for it, among other things. So you should get the Medicine and peace.

[Energy Trust of Oregon Announcer]

At Energy Trust of Oregon, we understand that energy isn't just what happens when you flip a switch. It's what happens afterwards. It's a home that can provide both shelter and peace of mind. It's a business that can run more efficiently and keep their dream alive. And it's communities that can thrive today and flourish tomorrow. That's energy. And that's why we partner with local utility companies to help you save energy and lower costs. For cash incentives and resources that can help power your life, visit energytrust.org your.

[Donald Trump (quoted)]

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[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

So, so I'm, I'm sorry, I, I interrupted you about, about the book.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

Well, I, I, I think basically there is an approach, and it has to do with seeing the health threats clearly, seeing why we don't see them, and overcoming those things, seeing the path to progress, seeing whether our programs are succeeding or failing. It's seeing the invisible, and it's, frankly, a superpower of public health. In Ebola. It was a model that showed the Obama administration and the world that unless we took urgent action, it was going to explode all over West Africa. And that one model allowed us to see the future and prevent it. The next thing, though, is to believe you can do something about it. Because all too often people assume that the present represents the inevitable future. And in fact, you can change a lot. And doing that, you can show that we've had a lot of successes in the past. RFK Jr. Said he couldn't think of a single success. I can give you 20 or 30. Healthier kids, healthier births, healthier young adults, less cancer, less heart disease, less stroke. You know, fewer people dying on roads and from traumatic brain injury, $2 trillion saved from vaccines, fewer women dying. Just a few.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Well, you start the book talking about lead in gasoline. I mean, just.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

It's a huge, huge success story, a delayed one, because we didn't listen to the warnings of a remarkable physician 50 years earlier. And then working together to create a healthier future by organizing, simplifying, communicating, and overcoming the political barriers to making progress. Because often it's the insurance companies or the parts of the healthcare system or the manufacturers of tobacco and junk food that are really undermining our ability to make progress. But there is a way to overcome that, and that's what the book is about. And when you take the kind of epidemiologic disease detective way of thinking, you can also cut through a lot of the hype, sloppy thinking, and profiteering about personal health to say, hey, what are the things that are actually going to work to help you live a longer, healthier life?

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Less salt, more squash, I guess.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

Well, that's one of them. Two of them. I mean, you know, the keys to healthy living are actually pretty straightforward. There's six things that virtually everyone can do, and they're within reach, and they don't cost very much or nothing. The first is to control your blood pressure. Blood pressure actually kills about 600,000Americans a year, causes a lot of heart attacks and strokes, and ideally, you want it under 120. Control your lipids, get good physical activity at least four days a week, at least 30 minutes each time. Get seven to nine hours of sleep every night, avoid toxins like tobacco and alcohol, and eat healthier. And there's some more tricky things about what eat healthier means. Less salt, more potassium, less sugar, more fiber, less processed meat, more healthy food you like, rather than trying to deny yourself some foods that you like that aren't healthy.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Well, there it is. Those are the six.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

Those are the six.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Thank you both. Randy, you want to add to that, to the six?

[Brandy Zadrozny]

Oh, no. I wouldn't even begin to suggest that I know how to be a healthy person. I'm hanging on by a thread.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Well, thank you both. It doesn't feel like we're going to be. We got bad news about our progress on vaccines and stuff, though.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

Facts are stubborn things and people want to be healthy. There's still a lot of great work going on by doctors and nurses and the people who have stayed at CDC toughing it out to protect Americans, because that's what CDC does work 247 to protect Americans from threats.

[Brandy Zadrozny]

I have a much less rosy outlook on the whole thing. You know, I think when Covid started, I remember because I've been covering Kennedy for over a decade and somebody asked me, I was right by the med unit and Covid was here, and they're like, what do you think is going to happen to the anti Biden? And I was like, are you kidding? It's over, it's done. Like, people are going to be lining up for a vaccine. Like, this is. This is the thing that we've been warning about. Like, one day there will be a pandemic and you will be lining up for a vaccine. And not only did that not happen, but like, the actual inverse happened and they gained, like, political power. And so, you know, if you think that they're going to just let go of that power or have it taken away from them gently, like, I just don't see it. And unlike Covid, where, you know, a million people died, if we want to pretend like that didn't happen or they refused to believe that happened, you know, now it's. This is children we're talking about. Children are going to be the. The victims of this. And I just don't see it ending anytime soon. I think it's going to take something really terrible to happen for us to. To figure this out.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

Well, that's how we like to end.

[Brandy Zadrozny]

Sorry.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

Look, there's a lot of technological progress. We have better vaccines, better treatment, better prevention than ever in human history. People are healthier than ever in human history. And ultimately people want to be even healthier. And it's possible.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

There you go. There. We'll end there. Thank you, guys.

[Dr. Tom Frieden]

Thank you.

[Brandy Zadrozny]

Thanks, Al.

[Podcast Producer or Co-host]

Well, I hope you enjoyed listening. That beautiful music is by Leo Kottke.

[Podcast Host (likely Al or similar)]

The great Leo Kotke.

[Podcast Producer or Co-host]

I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next week.

[Donald Trump (quoted)]

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[Brandy Zadrozny]

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