Mark Leibovich on Hegseth, Trump, & More!

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Al Franken Podcast

Episode: Mark Leibovich on Hegseth, Trump, & More!
Date: December 7, 2025
Host: Al Franken
Guest: Mark Leibovich, Staff Writer at The Atlantic

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Overview of Episode

In this wide-ranging discussion, Al Franken welcomes Mark Leibovich to dissect recent political scandals, the ethics and state of the Trump administration, American autocracy, media norms, and political shifts. The episode blends sharp political critique with moments of dark humor, providing both critical analysis and a view of Washington’s surreal current state.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. "Signal Gate" and National Security Negligence

• Description:
  The episode opens with a recap of the so-called "Signal Gate" scandal, where a supposedly private, encrypted signal chat involving high-level national security officials accidentally included The Atlantic’s editor, Jeff Goldberg.
• What Happened:
  Goldberg received real-time updates intended for national security figures during an operation in Yemen. The Pentagon reviewed and confirmed the seriousness.
• Leibovich Explains:

  "There are even far many more layers of encryption that high level national security… are availed of… this is not something they would have wanted the editor of the Atlantic to be part of, especially since it was on the record." (08:11)

2. Hegseth’s Orders and the Ethics of Warfare

• Allegations:
  Pete Hegseth, a member of the administration, is reported to have ordered the killing of two survivors of a (possibly illegal) drug boat strike in the Caribbean.
• Debate on Legality:
  Franken questions the military necessity and legality, calling the first strike questionable and the second a "war crime" (02:48).
• Congressional Action:
  Congressional Republicans and the Pentagon appear rattled; investigations are ongoing.
• Trump’s Response:
  Trump denies supporting the killings if defenseless; Hegseth denies the order.

  "Trump said that he would not have endorsed killing…if they were in fact defenseless…we'll see where that goes." (11:32)

3. Trump’s Pardons and Apparent Contradictions

• Details:
  Trump pardons drug traffickers but also the notorious ex-Honduran president Juan Orlando Hernandez, who was convicted for flooding the US with cocaine. He also pardoned Democratic Rep. Henry Cuellar of Texas, accused of bribery.
• Underlying Theme:
  Trump seems to profit politically and financially from pardons, blurring ethical boundaries further.

  "He's made a lot of money on pardons...the Trump family has made...it was $4 billion." (19:58)

• Notable Quote:
  Mark Leibovich: "Who among us, Al, who among us?" (18:21)

4. Corruption, Autocracy, and Profiteering

• Corruption as the New Normal:
  Leibovich and Franken discuss how Trump’s personal profit-making eclipses past scandals. The Blagojevich scandal is referenced as "quaint" by comparison (20:18).
• Autocratic Tendencies:
  They explicitly lay out Trump’s autocratic leanings:
  • Profiting from office, cronyism, abusing power, targeting political enemies, ignoring court rulings, and manipulating elections (23:09 – 24:26).

  Leibovich: "What categories we're missing in autocracy? The profiting we have, cronyism we have, just the whole Dear Leader thing..." (24:11)

5. Trump’s Racist Rhetoric and Immigration Crackdowns

• Minnesota Somalis & Other Immigrants:
  Trump attacks Somalis in Minnesota, calling them “garbage," and moves to halt visas for Afghan allies and other "Third World" immigrants post-National Guard shooting.
• Community Response:
  Franken defends his Somali constituents; Leibovich notes the lack of widespread GOP condemnation.
• Notable Quote:
  Trump (clip, as played by Franken): "We don't want them in our country. Their country stinks... If we keep taking in garbage... Ilhan Omar is garbage. Her friends are garbage." (28:28)
• Franken counters:
  "They are our neighbors, our friends, and they were my supporters. Trump is a detestable racist and has been his entire life." (02:48)

6. Ukraine and U.S. Foreign Policy

• U.S. Withdrawing Support:
  Trump administration appears to be “bailing” on Ukraine, with secret talks involving Jared Kushner and even business-like “deals” with Russians.

  "It sounds like they're making business deals or something...Ukraine does not seem to be involved in these negotiations." (31:58 – 32:56)

7. Media Exclusion and Government Secrecy

• Press Banned from Pentagon
  The administration’s exclusion of the press is flagged as another sign of autocratic governance. (25:12)

8. Cabinet Loyalty and Absurdity

• Marco Rubio’s Praise:
  Rubio effusively flatters Trump at a Cabinet meeting while Trump appears to be sleeping through it.
• Clip Played:
  Rubio: "He's the only leader in the world...tremendous credit for the transformational aspect of our foreign policy..." (39:11)
• Franken cracks:
  "He was asleep the whole time." (39:48)

9. 2026 Midterms Outlook

• Democratic Optimism:
  With Trump at record-low approval (36%) and Democrats’ overperformance in off-year elections, the outlook is described as historically favorable for Democrats—unless, as Leibovich jokes, "they sabotage themselves." (42:37)

10. Reflections on Dick Cheney and Past Republicanism

• Cheney’s Funeral:
  Leibovich attended the memorial, noting the odd political bedfellows—liberals and anti-Trump Republicans united.
• Cheney’s Anti-Trump Stance:
  Dick and Liz Cheney are highlighted as rare anti-Trump Republicans—Liz even campaigned with Kamala Harris.
• Leibovich’s Assessment:
  Despite Cheney’s divisive record, Leibovich paints him as principled compared to Trump’s “cartoon version of a tin pot dictator.” (51:47 – 54:04)

  "Say what you will about him...he did not care at all what anyone thought of him...didn't pretend to be anyone he wasn't." (54:04)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Hegseth and War Crimes:
  Al Franken: "I think the first strike was illegal...the second strike, that just seems to me to be a war crime." (02:48)

• On Autocracy:
  Mark Leibovich: "One is profiting from office. Check. One is cronyism...Check. Prosecuting or going after political enemies...Check...What categories we're missing in autocracy?" (23:09 – 24:11)

• On Pardons:
  Al Franken: "He's made a lot of money on pardons...it was $4 billion." (19:58)

• On Trump’s Rhetoric:
  Trump (audio clip): "Ilhan Omar is garbage. Her friends are garbage." (28:28)
  Franken: "Trump is a detestable racist and has been his entire life." (02:48)

• On Cheney:
  Mark Leibovich: "He struck me in an odd way as a real stand-up guy...didn't pretend to be anyone he wasn't...he had a shtick...it always killed." (54:04)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:31 – Show opens, recent scandals overview
• 07:09 – Hegseth and Signal Gate
• 08:40 – Yemen operation, national security breach
• 12:30 – Drug boat strike, legality, ongoing inquiry
• 17:42 – Trump’s pardons: Hernandez, Cuellar
• 19:58 – Financial profits from pardons
• 23:09 – Corruption and autocratic traits
• 28:28 – Trump’s attack on Somali immigrants (audio played)
• 31:29 – Ukraine negotiations, foreign policy doubts
• 39:07 – Rubio’s Cabinet praise, Trump sleeps through it
• 41:02 – 2026 midterms preview
• 46:41 – Cheney’s legacy, funeral, and impact

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Conclusion & Closing Remarks

In classic Al Franken style, the episode takes listeners on a fast-paced and sometimes gallows-humorous tour through America’s shifting political landscape. The discussion spotlights the alarming normalization of corruption and authoritarian behavior under Trump, the complicity and confusion inside the Republican Party, and the sense of surrealism enveloping Washington. Mark Leibovich’s firsthand reporting brings humor and perspective, while Franken’s unique voice—blunt, sardonic, and dedicated to public service—grounds the show in a mix of outrage and hope.

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For listeners: This episode is a sharp, entertaining, and illuminating deep dive for anyone looking to stay informed—and both amused and appalled—about the state of US politics in late 2025.

Transcript

[Al Franken]

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[Al Franken]

Hey everybody, we got a great one today. You know, for a change. Our old friend Mark Leibovich of the Atlantic joins me. Of course we talk about Hegseth. Jesus, what a. What a dick. On Thursday, Admiral Frank Bradley evidently testified to the Intelligence Committee that the two survivors were still in the fight and trying to secure the drugs so they could be transferred to another boat.

I'm on the other boat and I get a call from these survivors. I not sure how from a radio I guess that is in the drink. But anyway. And they say we just got hit by a missile and the other nine people on the boat are dead. Can you come pick us up and gather up the cocaine that's in the water now? Yeah, all the others are dead. Can you come pick us up now? You've no doubt seen the video of the hit. There were 11 people in the boat. Do you need 11 people in a boat to deliver drugs? Don't you want more room for the drugs?

I think the first strike was illegal. Even if they knew for sure they were carrying drugs which evidently they don't know for sure, those things. But the second strike, that just seems to me to be a, a war crime. On a lighter note, Mark and I talk about Trump and his disgusting attack on Somalis whom he called garbage. For him to leverage the actions of a few with such vulgarity is deplorable. I am of course a Minnesotan and represented the large Somali community in Minnesota. They are our neighbors, our friends, and they were my supporters. Trump is a detestable racist and has been his entire life. You remember in his first term, he referred to Haiti and African nations as shithole countries. Way back in 1973, Trump and his father were sued by the Justice Department for refusing to rent their apartments to black people and Puerto Ricans. It is a disgrace that this reprehensible man is our president. But you know that a couple things broke after Mark and I taped this. On Thursday, the Supreme Court by a surprise, surprise 63 vote decided that Texas can gerrymander to add five new Republican congressional seats. It's okay for a state legislature to politically gerrymander. It's not okay to racially gerrymander, which is what the lower court said it did. Judge Jeffrey Brown, a Trump appointee, wrote, substantial evidence shows that Texas racially gerrymandered the 2025 map. And that's what Texas did. They put black people and Latinos in districts to make them even more Democratic than they already were in order to create five additional Republican districts. The six conservative justices disagreed with the Trump appointed lower court judge. The three liberal justices vociferously disagreed. And now Republicans will probably have five more Texas Republican representatives in Congress. Some better news, a grand jury in the Eastern District of Virginia refused to re indict New York Attorney General Leticia James. I'm guessing because the case against her was bogus. In our conversation, Mark and I discuss a number of subjects. One, oddly, is Dick Cheney, who Mark had written about a number of times in the Atlantic. I, of course loathe Dick Cheney, mainly because he got his into the war in Iraq by saying there, let me try to do Cheney. There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. But Mark paints a kinder picture of Cheney. Of course, Cheney hated Trump as much as anyone and was one of the few anti Trump Republicans who actually endorsed Kamala Harris Marx. Not sure whether that helped or hurt Harris. So Mark Leibovich joins us today. It's a great one, you know, for a change.

Hey, Mark.

[Mark Leibovich]

Hi, Al, how you doing?

[Al Franken]

Good, good. Thanks for coming back on it's been a good week for the New England Patriots.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. That's what I'm here to talk about.

[Al Franken]

Well, you wrote a book on the NFL. Big game.

[Mark Leibovich]

I did enjoy a lot. The Pats seem to be back, and, you know, it's been a really, really long, four or five years since we've been good. And, you know, there are people around. There are kids like 3 years old around New England who have lived their entire life.

Well.

[Al Franken]

This year, I think they're leading the NFL.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. I think they have the best record in all of the NFL.

[Al Franken]

Wow. Okay. So not a great week for Hegseth.

[Mark Leibovich]

No. Or the Minnesota Vikings. But. Yeah. No, no. I just figured the cleaner transition. Yeah. Here's the thing on Pete Hegseth. Yeah. I mean, it's. You know, he has. He is one thing after another. Right. I mean.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. Signal Gate. Now, your boss was your. The editor in chief of the Atlantic was copied on Signal.

[Mark Leibovich]

That became Signal Gate. Yeah. So Signal Gate is for those listeners who don't. Who haven't followed it, basically. My boss, Jeff Goldberg, was sitting in his car one day in the parking lot of a Safeway, and he gets this signal message from someone who apparently was on a theoretically private signal chat with very high level national security, cabinet level people in the administration wrote about it. And that became Signal Gate. I mean, this shouldn't happen. And there was a. There was a review from the Pentagon this week confirming how negligent this was.

[Al Franken]

This is unencrypted.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. Signal is an encrypted, kind of private messaging system that a lot of people use. But in fact, you know, there are even far many layers, many more layers of encryption that high level national security forces or people are availed of. So, yeah, this is not something theoretically, that they would have wanted the editor of the Atlantic to be part of, especially. Especially since it was on the record and so forth. Jeff was very responsible in what he did.

[Al Franken]

He revealed it. But after, of course, the mission, they were bombing Yemen.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yep. It was a Yemen operation. Yemeni.

[Al Franken]

And if this had, you know, presumably somebody could have gotten a hold of.

[Mark Leibovich]

This and warned, yeah, hoodies could have been catastrophic.

[Al Franken]

Right. And so that wasn't good. But of course, last week, the Washington Post reported that Hexeth had ordered the killing of the two survivors of that first strike on a drug boat.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. On the other side, I suppose.

[Al Franken]

I mean, alleged.

[Mark Leibovich]

Alleged drug dealers or drug traffickers.

[Al Franken]

Did you see. Have you seen the video of this? Because there were 12 people on that boat.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. I mean, I. I'VE seen it. I mean, I've seen, I think what everyone else has, which.

To the layperson, and presumably just Pete Hegseth just sort of sitting there doesn't tell you a lot. You see an explosion, you see some kind of fallout.

[Al Franken]

But I have a question. Drug dealers. Why would they have 12 people in a boat?

[Mark Leibovich]

I don't know. This is not my world, Al. I mean.

It'S confusing. I mean, it sounded from the Post report that some very, very, you know, inhumane and illegal international activity was, was going on at the behest of, of the people in charge, whoever, whether it was Pete Hegseth or, or one of his deputies or what have you.

[Al Franken]

Admiral Bradley.

[Mark Leibovich]

Admiral yeah, but I mean, it's very, it's a very serious charge if in fact, you know, this is what happened.

[Al Franken]

Well, the charge is, of course, they bonded first, which we don't know is really legal to begin with.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, Put that aside though.

[Al Franken]

Put that aside.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

There are two survivors of the first bombing and in the Washington Post they said that Hegseth gave the order to, to kill them all, to kill these last two. And he's denied that. Yeah, I think he's lying. But will we find out is the question.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, I mean, you know, hopefully there will be some kind of either either more thorough reporting done on it or some kind of internal review that.

[Al Franken]

Well, actually, the Congress I think is.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yes. And they said they will look, I mean, unlike many other instances in these last year, since Trump has taken over a year or so, the ranking Republican in the Senate. Mississippi. Yeah, yeah. So they're, they're actually looking into it. They seem to be taking, taking it seriously. And look, there seem to be, based on the responses from the Pentagon and within the White House, there's a level of nervousness clearly that even Trump and Hegseth seem aware that this would be very problematic if in fact it was true. Trump said that he would not have endorsed killing the two people in the water if they were in fact defenseless and so forth. So anyway, yeah, we'll see where that goes.

[Al Franken]

He said that before Hegseth denied that he had known about it. And he kind of says it was fog of war and it's legal. And yeah. Remember the six members of Congress who told members of the military not to follow illegal orders?

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was terrible. And then a few days later, here we have a great example of why a mid or not high level member of the Pentagon or the military would not want to follow illegal orders. I mean, it's Sort of a perfect illustration. Just about a week or so.

[Al Franken]

And Trump wanted to hang them for.

[Mark Leibovich]

For saying that he did. He called for, I guess, Mark Kelly and, you know, any, I guess, Jason Crow. There were a bunch of veterans in there.

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean, it was, it was appalling, but. Yeah, I mean, that seems to have been replaced by the actual. On the ground or actually in real life, real time example of why following illegal orders would be not a good thing.

[Al Franken]

So they've killed so far, 80 people transporting drugs. And then this past week, Trump pardons. And these are people on boats somewhere in the Caribbean.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

People pay maybe 100 bucks if they're transporting drugs. 100 bucks, 300 bucks, I don't know.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Then he pardons the Honduran, former Honduran president Juan Orlando Hernandez.

[Mark Leibovich]

Seems like a contradiction, Al.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, he was convicted. You know who was a prosecutor in that case? Emil Bovey.

[Mark Leibovich]

Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah. He must be very troubled about this.

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[Mark Leibovich]

It's amazing how. Yeah. Emil Bovey. Yeah. Where have we heard that name recently?

[Al Franken]

Well, he was a defense attorney. He was a prosecutor mainly, but he was a defense attorney for Trump in his trial in New York.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Hush money for the, on the. From Stormy Daniels and.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. I mean, let's just say, by the way, in the sort of, in the larger context of all the wrongdoing that he's been involved with certainly, you know, in the last year alone. I mean, it does sort of render that case, especially being the sort of tip of the spear and the prosecutions that went on the last couple of years to be seemingly a bit frivolous.

[Al Franken]

But either way, I think it actually hurt.

[Mark Leibovich]

Or here.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. I mean, if we had just gotten to the January 6th case.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yep. Or even the Georgia case. But either way. Well, that's.

Even the Georgia case, which I guess is now was the last remaining potential legal jeopardy that Trump was in, has now gone by the wayside officially as of the last few days.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. Oh.

Yeah. So Hernandez flooded the US with drugs, 400 tons of cocaine, and Trump says he was set up by the current lefty president.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, it was a setup. It was all very scattershot. A lot of people are saying it was, it was unfair. So he pardoned him. I mean, there's probably a lot of machinations.

[Al Franken]

You know, who was the go between for him?

[Mark Leibovich]

Who?

[Al Franken]

Roger Stone.

[Mark Leibovich]

Oh, all right. Well, I guess it's on the up and up then.

Sounds like it's on a level.

[Al Franken]

Well, he was pardoned, too. I mean, right.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, it's like, it's, it's kind of this great, you know, collective of, of legal authorities now that, you know, are all united under this, you know, whatever law school they attended. But, but also they've all been pardoned. So they, they know the judicial system better than many people. Have a perspective that we should all respond.

[Al Franken]

We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back with Mark Leibovich.

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[Mark Leibovich]

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[Al Franken]

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We are back with Mark Leibovich of the Atlantic. I guess on Wednesday Trump pardoned a.

[Mark Leibovich]

Democrat, Henry Cuellar of Texas. A moderate conservative, kind of border hawkish Republican. He's always targeting both by the left and by the Republicans. Managed to get reelected every year. You know, he was brought up on charges, I guess, involving financial stuff, money.

[Al Franken]

Laundering, bribery and that kind of thing. Yeah, he allegedly took $600,000 from an Azerbaijani oil company and a Mexican commercial bank.

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean, who among us, Al, who among us? Anyway, Trump pardoned him. And you know, on a purely nakedly political level, I mean, this, I mean, Republicans, he's in a very precarious or sort of swingy district in South Texas. I mean, Republicans who are going to need every House seat they need, we're sort of seeing his district as a very promising pickup opportunity. And obviously they were going to campaign against the legal problems that the Cuellar has been having.

[Al Franken]

Is he running for reelection?

[Mark Leibovich]

He is indeed.

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[Mark Leibovich]

And you know, and I guess Trump has taken his own party's biggest argument against Henry Cuellar away from them, which is that he is legally suspect or ethically suspect and so forth. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of people within the Republican sort of House campaign committee and people who know the district and know what the map looks like who did not like this at all.

[Al Franken]

So he's running. He's running again.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. Although Trump does seem to have a affection for, I mean, he's very bipartisan in that he will pardon, seems to pardon certain Democratic criminal also, or at least go easy on them. Whether it's, you know, Cuellar or, you.

[Al Franken]

Know, he pardoned, he's made a lot of money on pardons. We, we had Liz Oyer on the podcast a couple a few weeks ago. She was the former pardon attorney for, for Biden. And basically she laid out where Trump is profiting from the pardons, which he's doing.

The Trump family has made. Like we had David Kirkpatrick from New Yorker on, who had written an article on how much money the Trump family has made just in the first year of this presidency. And it was $4 billion.

[Mark Leibovich]

Pretty good. I mean, remember in 2008 after Obama was elected? I mean, you were probably deep in recount land at that point, Al, but the first big sort of post election scandal was the Blagojevich thing. Remember that? And he like the huge outrage and he became a pariah almost immediately and he wound up going to jail. But, you know, he was basically selling a Senate seat. I mean, it was sort of using his own authority to sort of way the governor of governor of Illinois, either the appointment of a senator to replace Obama at the time or, you know, obviously just basically an abuse of power. And that was considered a massive, massive scandal at the time, which, you know, something like that probably would happen rather Seamlessly today, you would think, right?

[Al Franken]

So, yeah. Well, anyway, it's just disgusting how much this president is profiting from this presidency.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, it's amazing. David Kirkpatrick, by the way, my former desk mate at the New York Times, great reporter, very, very good guy. And that was a great piece. I mean, to actually have someone quantify the amount of windfall that Trump and allied people in the family and so forth can sort of reap from this office is kind of astounding when you put a figure on it, and it looks like a very viable figure, if you ask me. But, yeah, no, I.

This is all a kind of writ large, daily example of the flood, the zone thing, about the kind of corruption that has gone on and individual sort of minds can only process so much. And this is. We're talking about a universe where people like you and me, and presumably people who listen to this are pretty engaged and who know the issues better than most. And the fact is, the vast majority of people don't even get to that point. So, yeah, it's astounding. You'd like to think that there will be some kind of accountability one day and, you know, history, who knows what history is going to be written, what that's going to look like in 10 years, 20 years and so forth. But, yeah, it's. It's astounding. It's. It's so orders of magnitude more than anything we've ever seen before any party, any era, what have you.

[Al Franken]

Our friend Frank, for.

Your issue, the Atlantic issue, on what a Trump presidency would be.

[Mark Leibovich]

This is before he was elected. Right.

[Al Franken]

Wrote about corruption.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, I have to reread that.

[Al Franken]

Well, it was basically, he was saying that autocracies are corrupt, and he was talking about Hungary and Turkey and. Are we in an autocracy? Are we heading toward an autocracy? What's the.

[Mark Leibovich]

Well, yeah, I mean, you would think. I mean, think of what are some of the basic components of an autocracy. Right? I mean, one is profiting from office. Check. One is cronyism, helping people who are either related to you or friends with you or supportive of you or who are giving you money and so forth. Check. Prosecuting or going after political enemies in a way that is, you know, incredibly abusive of your power.

[Al Franken]

And they're going to re. Indict Comey and James and.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's that. But. But also just like, you know, just targeting even before it gets to sort of any kind of judge or sort of prosecutorial setting. I mean, just the harassment that he opens people up to when they do anything. You know, whether it's Mark Kelly getting a whole new wave of death threats or, you know, Jason Crowe or what have you. But yeah, I mean, so like, what catego categories we're missing in autocracy?

The profiting we have, I mean, cronyism we have, you know, just the whole Dear Leader thing. I mean, there was another cabinet meeting.

[Al Franken]

Well, actually they aren't observing court decisions also there's that.

[Mark Leibovich]

But also, I mean, I mean a real factor here is, I mean, will there be free and fair elections which, you know, one would hope, one would think, you know, there will be in next November. You could even argue that the sort of rampant orders of, you know, redistrict everywhere where Republicans are in control is a form of controlling elections or sort of asserting some kind of state prerogative over elections. So yeah, I mean, look, I will, I mean, Frank is prescient on many, many, many issues. I will go back and read aloud his, his predictions to see how much of it's come true. But I mean, without going back, I imagine that these are some of the things or these are some of the broad themes that, that he would have laid out.

[Al Franken]

I mean, one of the, I mean, how about kicking the press out of the Pentagon?

[Mark Leibovich]

Oh, yeah, sure, yeah, yeah. Press relations. Yeah. I mean, look at the Pentagon press corps now. I mean, it's, it's hilarious. I mean, actually it's not hilarious, it's deeply troubling, Al. But it's, yeah, no, I mean it's kind of by the book. And the question. Well, it's not the question for now, but I mean, can you actually revert to something that is in the same ballpark as normalcy when and if this ever ends? Right. I mean, presumably it will end one day. But what's, what's the new normal going to look like after Trump is, is no longer a factor in our politics?

[Al Franken]

The National Guard shooting, which was incredibly tragic and a 20 year old specialist died and I think the other guardsman is still in critical condition.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I haven't heard any updates in the last few days, but it was certainly critical at first.

[Al Franken]

Trump's response is really racist.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. What was that response? I mean, it was basically, I mean, he said, all right, we're going to put hundreds more guardsmen on the streets.

[Al Franken]

In D.C. well, but it was more a crackdown on our immigration system.

[Mark Leibovich]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He said, yeah, we're going to stop the third world immigration. I mean, that's That's a real specific strategy. Yeah, we're going to stop Third World immigration.

[Al Franken]

Here are some of the things he did. He put Afghans in the US Got a pause in their ability to get a green card, US citizenship, or a visa. There are 200,000 Afghans who have come to the United States since the Taliban took over.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

And many of these were people who fought for us or helped us or translators. I mean, Jason Kander is a friend of mine. He's gotten a lot of Afghan translators and other people. Trump is going after them.

[Mark Leibovich]

Afghans, these are as literal an ally as you can have. I mean, they literally fought side by side in an extremely dicey combat situation. I mean, it's not just sort of a rough national allegiance. It's not like, oh, well, that's a French national and the French are our allies. I mean, these are, on the ground people who helped the United States in one of the longest wars, if not the longest war in our history. Right. So, yeah. So to just sort of blanket say, look, no more of this. This is just Biden opening the borders.

[Al Franken]

Well, they're also. They put a pause on people from.

[Mark Leibovich]

Anywhere in the world or from the third world out.

[Al Franken]

The Third world. I'm sorry, not the entire world, just the Third world. You know, how are we going to have people like the Afghans did, fight for us or work for us if they know they can't come here if things go bad?

[Mark Leibovich]

Good question. I mean, you know, this certainly doesn't help any kind of moral authority that Americans would seek to enforce abroad or certainly here.

[Al Franken]

So now, now he's attacking Somalis, particularly Minnesota Somalis, who.

There was some corruption there, but to use that as a way to go after citizens who are American citizens now.

Can we play that clip, Peter? I don't want them in our country. I'll be honest with you. Okay. Somebody would say, oh, that's not politically correct. I don't care. I don't want them in our country. Their country is no good for a reason. Their country stinks, and we don't want them in our country. I could say that about other countries, too. I could say it about other countries, too. We don't want them to help. We got to. We have to rebuild our country. You know, our country's at a tipping point. We could go bad. We're at a tipping point. I don't know if people mind me saying that, but I'm saying it. We could go one way or the other, and we're going to go the wrong way. If we keep taking in garbage into our country, Ilan Omar is garbage. She's garbage. Her friends are garbage. Okay, now, all right, first of all.

[Mark Leibovich]

Let'S say this up front. I mean, there was some really, some bad corruption went on here. I mean, you know, in Minnesota, you know, this was not a good look for, for Tim Walls, the governor there. I mean, there's a legitimate story. New York Times, I guess, did most of the reporting there. I mean. Yeah. So full stop there. But, I mean, listen, they're garbage. I could say that about other countries, too. I mean, let me guess what kind of countries he would be talking about there.

[Al Franken]

Well, the shithole countries.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. You can name a continent.

[Al Franken]

And, you know, he has not been to Africa during either presidency.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, yeah, it doesn't surprise me. I mean. Yeah. I mean, look, I mean, you're. You represented Minnesota. You're from Minnesota. I mean, you know, the Somali community there is, is huge. Right?

[Al Franken]

I mean, it's, it's an enormous community and a great community bus.

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean, it's, it's varied. I mean, it's like any other community. But I mean, it's big. It's. I mean, this is like the biggest.

[Al Franken]

Somali community in the United States.

[Mark Leibovich]

In the United States, yeah. Absolutely. So, I don't know. I mean, look, there's a. I guess I saw it today. There was a Republican Somali or a Somali state rep or something like, who endorsed Trump and who is waiting to have other Republicans from the state join him in condemning these remarks. But doesn't sound like there's been a groundswell at all. But. Yeah, it's depressing. I mean, first of all, that's kind of a new level of racism. I mean, he doesn't. I mean, it's not that he's much for nuance, but.

[Al Franken]

No, now he's sending ICE to crack down on Somalis. There's. But most of these people are citizens. I mean, we.

[Mark Leibovich]

The vast majority, it sounds like. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, yeah. And look, I mean, ICE is like, this is a huge army, kind of a domestic army he has at his disposal, I mean, which obviously doesn't have to necessarily track with immigration one's immigration status. I mean, this is like maybe over $10 billion in this new big, beautiful bill budget that sort of allows him to sort of hire at will and throw signing bonuses at would be ICE agents. And so for. Yeah, I mean, this, I guess, could be theoretically part of that.

[Al Franken]

So he, he is bailing on Ukraine, it looks like.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, I mean, it seems to. He seems to Blow hot and cold on Ukraine. Sometimes he'll sort of flex some muscles against Russia. I mean, I'm not sure. I would assume there's no rhyme or reason to this, but. Yeah, no, I mean, like, he is now. It sounds like the real tip of the spear here is this guy Witkoff and Jared Kushner sort of negotiating directly with the Russians.

[Al Franken]

Doesn't that sound like they're making business deals or something? I mean, it doesn't sound like they got anywhere. They got nowhere in their negotiations. Putin, I think, just wants to keep going. I mean, the deal that supposedly the United States wrote.

Would have given Russia territory that they haven't even conquered.

[Mark Leibovich]

Correct? Yeah. It's not only keeping the territory that they have acquired during this war, or, you know, or just taken during this war, it's adding to it. And by the way, I mean, Russia doesn't. I mean, the idea that Russia doesn't want. I mean, Russia is losing tens of thousands of people, like, a month in so much as a country is losing a great deal of its soldiers and its treasure and so forth. I mean, this war is just devastating to Russia, theoretically, to Putin. Politically.

[Al Franken]

I don't think he cares about himself.

[Mark Leibovich]

No, I don't think he does either. Certainly Trump doesn't seem to care about it as long as there's some kind of deal to be made and God knows what kind of profiteering there is to be made. But either way, I mean, Ukraine does not seem to be involved in these negotiations at this point. NATO doesn't seem to be at all involved in this point. Even who knows what Rubio, Marco Rubio's involvement in the Secretary of State or anyone else, you know, look, it's. I don't know where this is all going to land, but it certainly doesn't look like it's the kind of negotiation or sort of considered negotiation you would want in a situation like this.

[Al Franken]

We're going to take a quick break. We'll be back real soon with Mark Wabovich.

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[Mark Leibovich]

That we sent you.

[Al Franken]

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And we're back with Mark Rebovich.

Did you watch the press conference with the Cabinet meeting?

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. He was, you know, Rubio did a great job. He was lavish in his praise. I mean, especially when you juxtapose it to how harsh his criticism was when he ran against him a few years ago. But the problem is Trump fell asleep, or apparently, according to the photos, while Rubio was going on. And I watched it, Trump appeared to have his eyes closed.

[Al Franken]

Now, it was actually during. Can we play what we have of Rubio? Rubio blows so much smoke up Trump's ass. And I want to play this because it's. To me, it's hilarious.

[Mark Leibovich]

The president's taken on this issue of.

[Al Franken]

Sudan personal, not send out deputies to.

[Mark Leibovich]

Do it again, far away from the United States, because he's the only leader in the world that can bring it about to an end. Not to mention all the other peace.

[Al Franken]

Deals, very dangerous ones, like India and.

[Mark Leibovich]

Pakistan or Cambodia and Thailand and so on. All these things. Mr. President, I think you deserve tremendous credit for the transformational aspect of our foreign policy. For the first time in probably four decades, the American foreign policy is driven by what is good for America and Americans, whether it makes us safer and stronger and more prosperous. If it is, he's for it. If it doesn't, he's against it. And that sort of clarity is transformational. Wow. Sounds like a pretty good thing.

[Al Franken]

And he was asleep the whole time.

[Mark Leibovich]

I don't know if it was the whole time, but, I mean, he watched it. So he, you know, the White House says that he was. He was deep in reflection and closing his eyes while he listened. Because, you know, so maybe, maybe that's what he was doing. But either way, I mean, the visual kind of ruined whatever. Whatever.

Was, because, you know, I mean, look, they spent like, literally hours going around the table, which is what I guess a Cabinet meeting is in this day and age. But again, Trump sort of ruined the. I mean, the takeaway from the meeting is, hey, look, Trump can't even Stay awake through a two hour, you know, wet kiss.

[Al Franken]

So where is Trump now? He's at 36% approval or something like that.

[Mark Leibovich]

There was a Gallup poll I guess last week sometime that had Trump like a new low 30, 36%. And look, I mean his numbers at least his approval ratings don't seem to be going in a, in a good direction for him. So yeah, I mean, Gallups obviously a very, very reputable poll.

[Al Franken]

And so I want to ask you about, is it too early to predict midterms or to be talking about that?

[Mark Leibovich]

No, I mean, historically speaking, the party out of power and Democrats have been completely locked out of power in all branches since 2024. Democrats historically are positioned to do well because the minority party out of power traditionally does well in a midterm election. Add to that the idea that Trump's approvals are tanking, but also Democrats have overperformed, you know, pretty significantly in all the either special elections or off year elections.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, one in Tennessee they went from 22 point advantage that the Republicans had last cycle to nine.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, I mean Democrats were really, I mean morale was terrible. And then all of a sudden they did really, really well in these off year elections last month in Virginia and in New Jersey where Abigail Spanberger in Virginia, Mikey Sherrill in New Jersey just both won by double digits in races that were supposedly going to be even closer. So that definitely put a bounce in Democratic Democrats steps. And then this thing in Nashville or in Tennessee, Trump won this district by 22 points a year ago, A little over a year ago. And an extremely progressive, not, not an ideal candidate for Tennessee. Bain Afton Bain is her name.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, but you know, I'm maybe on and off here. You're just attracting passionate liberals. And yeah, that was, I don't know.

[Mark Leibovich]

This was, they were very nervous about it. First of all, the bottom line is they Republicans won by nine. Some people thought it would be closer. So I mean, maybe Republicans breathe a sigh of relief because there was some concern that I'd be even closer than that or maybe even lose a seat. But you know, it's a 13 point pickup in an environment where Trump himself, Mike Johnson, a number of, a lot of money Republicans were deeply worried about this. And you had a Democratic candidate who was less than ideal for the district. And even then they were able to overperform Trump by 13 points, which, you know, along with a lot of the other indicators and polls in New Jersey and Virginia would indicate that, you know, Democrats could do really, really, really well in the midterms and unless, of course, they sabotage themselves, which they can do sometimes.

[Al Franken]

So is Trump been trying to raise his popularity? I mean, what has he been doing? Worked on the ballroom.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, it's, apparently he wants to make this ballroom as big as possible. So maybe if it's a really big ballroom, he can invite as many people he can, he can invite, you know, tens of thousands of people to the ballroom and that would maybe make him more popular. I don't know.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, Washington people, though, so.

[Mark Leibovich]

No, no, come from all over the country. I mean, Trump would say that he doesn't need to increase his popularity because he already has a supportive, what, like 80% of the American people already? I mean, you know, is this a problem? The economy's humming, inflation way down, wars are ending. I mean, I don't know, what's not to like, Al?

[Al Franken]

Well, I think Republicans are worried and, but I think it's a little too.

[Mark Leibovich]

Early on that I'm being sarcastic. I think they are worried. I think they should be worried.

[Al Franken]

We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back with Mark Leibovich.

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And we are back with Mark Liebovich. So I read a couple of pieces that you've written on Dick Cheney.

[Mark Leibovich]

You're a hero. You always were extremely praising of him back in the day.

[Al Franken]

I hated him.

[Mark Leibovich]

You liked him more than most Democrats liked Dick Cheney. And you hated Dick Cheney.

[Al Franken]

That's right. Oh, wow.

[Mark Leibovich]

The Ted Cruz thing, actually.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. Yeah. But those are two pieces you wrote. One was about the memorial for him at the National Cathedral. At the National Cathedral. And there were people there. There were a lot of Democrats there. And there were.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, there were only a few presidents. There was, I think, Biden, Bush. Bush, Bush. One of the two eulogists. I don't think Obama was there. Clinton wasn't there, but Bush was there. Biden was there. Every living vice president. Dan Quayle was there. Al Gore.

[Al Franken]

I see every living vice president.

[Mark Leibovich]

I got you. Kamala was there. I mean, it was, it was. Yeah, so it was, it was definitely a good turnout. But the vice presidential community definitely turned out okay.

[Al Franken]

But you had a lot of Democrats there. And this is partially because Cheney, of course.

Endorsed Kamala.

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean, it's like, it's a remarkable. So I wrote these two pieces. One after he died. There's one, you know, he just died the day before. And then. Yeah, this memorial service. I mean, I love funerals. I think they're really, they can be fascinating. Washington anthropology. And this was a great example of that. I mean, obviously I don't love all funerals. I mean, they're very sad, definitionally, but. Yeah. But here you had this. A lot of Republicans who have been completely cast out and are completely alienated and disgusted by what's become of their party under Donald Trump and, you know, Cheney himself and certainly the Cheney family would probably fit into that category, given what happened with Liz Cheney when she was in Congress and how she sort of after January 6th became probably, you know, one of his two or three most vocal and passionate and activist critics.

[Al Franken]

Kamala Harris, she campaigned with Liz Cheney.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, she campaigned with. Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Was that a good idea?

[Mark Leibovich]

You know, there's a school of thought that says that Harris should not have embraced the Cheney's. The degree to which she did you know, I was at the thought at the time that, you know, it does. Look, you'll take any support you can get, whether it's, I mean, you know, tens of millions of people voted for the Bush Cheney ticket, and they're still alive and voting today. So. But there's another school of thought saying, look, Democrats are a progressive party. The energy of the party is on the left. There's no way our nominee should have anything to do with. With anyone in the Cheney family, Liz or Dick or whatever. So, I mean, it's kind of a larger philosophical issue. But. But the bottom line is, I mean, you go to this funeral or I went to this funeral, and there's Rachel Maddow at the funeral. Right. I mean, there's just a lot of.

[Al Franken]

People who were asking and yeah.

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean, there was a scene after January 6th or one of the. Maybe the first anniversary of January 6th. It was where Liz Cheney was one of the few Republicans. Dick Cheney was actually there to sort of commemorate and support his daughter, and there were no other Republicans there. You had like Nancy Pelosi and Jamie Raskin and Adam Schiff and so forth surrounding Dick Cheney and wishing him well and Biden calling Liz. And so, yeah, I mean, it was sort of. That was. I mean, we've known for a number of years that the world as we know it is just upside down. But this, to me, was another just expression of that. I mean, I remember I was walking out of the. The cathedral last week, and so there was Rachel over here and George Conway, Kellyanne's ex husband, who, you know, very active Republican, you know, for many, many.

[Al Franken]

Years now, considering running for Congress as a Democrat.

[Mark Leibovich]

I think he probably will. And he could be your congressman, right?

[Al Franken]

That's right. Yeah.

[Mark Leibovich]

In the Upper west side. Right.

[Al Franken]

I might vote for a Democrat.

[Mark Leibovich]

You know, is he a Democrat now? That's. That's the question.

[Al Franken]

I don't know, but it could be.

[Mark Leibovich]

Quite a. I mean, like, Jack Sloshberg could run. I mean, Caroline Kennedy's son. Anyway, we'll put that aside for another day. But, you know, Adam Kinzinger was there. Bill Crystal was there. Karl Rove was there. Again, not the people that you were. You were aligned with during your Air America days alone. Yeah. And wasn't Rachel Maddow on Air America? Didn't.

[Al Franken]

She was.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. Worked with her there. So, yeah, it was all home week. You missed a real party.

[Al Franken]

I read your other piece after Cheney died, and I think I would have actually kind of liked him. Okay.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Maybe that's Yeah, I mean, you like them. There was clear.

[Mark Leibovich]

Here's the thing about Dick Cheney, right? I mean, say what you will about him. Obviously many have and will.

You know, right now Republicans are this age of hyper shamelessness, hyper vanity, hyper peacocking. I mean, Trump is like the cartoon version of the kind of tin pot dictator that, you know, Cheney fundamentally, I mean, this was antithetical to, you know, a person who was deeply ideological, deeply, you know, very, very committed to public service. I mean, again, say what you will about what the service looked like and in service to what, right? But I mean, this is a guy who truly, and I always respected this about him, even when he was in office, he did not care at all what anyone thought of him. I mean, obviously politicians theoretically want to be loved and they want the affection of the press, of their staff, of their bosses and what have you. I mean, presumably Cheney cared about what his boss, Bush, when he was vice president, thought of him. But Dick Cheney, God, he did not play that game at all. And that game is essentially in politics, in Washington. A lot of it is just total bullshit. You know, that. And again, I mean, he might have been a, you know, say what you want, war criminal, whatever, but when I would spend time with him or in the time I was able to spend time with him, I was writing about him, you know, 20 years ago, right? Literally 20 years ago almost. He, you know, he struck me in an odd way as a real stand up guy, someone who was actually pretty transparent, didn't pretend to be anyone he wasn't. And you know, he had a shtick. He had this line that he used to say in his. I remember when he was running for reelection in 2004 and John Edwards was his opposite number, he was Kerry's running mate in 2004. And Cheney had this line in his stump speech where he would say, you know, a lot of people think that Senator Edwards was picked because he's charismatic and he's got great hair and he's really, really handsome. I mean, how do you think I got the job? And you know, it always killed. It always brought the House down. And, you know, it was also kind of innocent, deprecating. And okay, maybe I'm a sucker for this stuff, but I, you know, I thought it was kind of funny.

[Al Franken]

Well.

I would recommend those pieces. Anyone who's curious about Dick Cheney, go back to the Atlantic Monthly, which maybe.

[Mark Leibovich]

We'Ll make a book out of it. What do you think? We just compile everything I've ever written on Dick Cheney.

Me and Dick, right Tuesdays with Dick or something like that. But you'd have me on to promote that, right?

[Al Franken]

I think they should put that out at Christmas or something, you know, rush it in.

[Mark Leibovich]

You think we could put it out? I mean, no, no.

[Al Franken]

Next year.

[Mark Leibovich]

Next year. Because, I mean, but I think once you sort of have the people who showed up at the funeral, I think that's, that'd be my readership, right? I mean, that'd be the core market. So you look at the. Try to get the guest list.

[Al Franken]

Well, that'd be self published, I think.

[Mark Leibovich]

You think?

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[Mark Leibovich]

All right, well, it's self published.

[Al Franken]

Anything else on your mind that I missed?

[Mark Leibovich]

No, I mean, look, I don't.

Here we are, man. It's like December, things seem to be depressing as ever, but here we all are. And, you know, I think we need to be nice to people and kind to people and love the people we love. And it's the holidays and, you know, we're still standing. I don't, I don't know what this is all going to look like when it's all over, but I do think that there might be some signs that Trump, too, is kind of going awry in a way that a lot of Republicans are starting to notice. Not just your usual, never Trump Republicans, but maybe rank and file Republicans, not just a few in Washington, but also around the country, you know, might be ready to move on to something different. And I think that would be a good thing because it's been going on for a long time. I mean, if you look at Trump's approvals, right, which are low, it's getting down around 80 or even high 70s among Republicans themselves. I mean, you know, part of what made his floor relatively high, like say around 43, you know, 44%, was that he had the support of well into the 90s of Republicans. And you know, when you, when you drop 10, 15 points off of that, it's a significant hit. So maybe that's where some of this is coming in and we can be something. You know, maybe this is moving us towards a better place. But look, I'm just an observer here, Al.

[Al Franken]

Well, as always, we appreciate what you write when you report on the Atlantic.

[Mark Leibovich]

Al, great to be with you anytime. Glad to be a friend of the Al Franken podcast.

[Al Franken]

Well, thank you. And you a great friend. Well, I, I hope you enjoyed listening. That beautiful music is by Leo Kotke, the great Leo Kotke. I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next.

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[Al Franken]

Even kind of cheesy. But I like it.

[Mark Leibovich]

Sure, you met some of my dietary needs, but they've just got it all.

[Al Franken]

So farewell Oatmeal so long, you strange soggy.

[Mark Leibovich]

Break up with bland breakfast and taste AMPM's bacon, egg and cheese biscuits, biscuit made with K tree egg, smoked bacon and melty cheese on a buttery biscuit. AM P M Too much Good stuff.

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