Mark Leibovich on the Week in Washington

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Al Franken Podcast – "Mark Leibovich on the Week in Washington"

Introduction

In this episode of The Al Franken Podcast, hosted by Al Franken of ASF Productions, Al welcomes Mark Leibovich, a seasoned staff writer at The Atlantic, former New York Times contributor, and MSNBC analyst. The duo delves into the tumultuous political landscape of Washington D.C., focusing primarily on President Donald Trump's recent State of the Union address and its far-reaching implications.

Trump’s State of the Union Address

Mark Leibovich opens the discussion by critiquing President Trump's State of the Union address, highlighting its unprecedented length and unconventional elements.

• Unprecedented Length and Content

  Trump delivered what is considered the longest State of the Union address in history, reportedly lasting over an hour and a half. Leibovich notes, “It was like one hour, 30 minutes, even more maybe” (09:07).

• Overzealous Introductions and Unusual Guests

  The President broke records by introducing an unusually high number of guests from the balcony, a move rarely seen since Ronald Reagan. Among the notable introductions was Elon Musk, humorously dubbed the “head of Doge, the Department of Government Efficiency.” “He may be the richest person in the world who cut off life-saving aid from USAID” (02:45).

• Aggressive Rhetoric

  Trump’s address was marked by aggressive and predatory tones, particularly in foreign policy discussions. Mark remarked, “He reminded everyone that he still has designs on places like Greenland and what have you. I mean, this was kind of a classic separate the signal from the noise” (10:00).

Tariffs and Economic Policies

The conversation shifts to Trump’s economic strategies, specifically his use of tariffs.

• Impact on Inflation and Consumer Prices

  Leibovich explains, “When we place tariffs on goods from other countries, our importers are the ones who pay the tariffs and they pass that cost on to American consumers, which drives up inflation” (03:15). He criticizes Trump’s tariff policies, stating, “These tariffs are just, they're not good for either country” (03:30).

• Recent Tariff Suspensions

  Recently, tariffs on cars from Canada and Mexico were suspended. Leibovich notes, “But I mean, look, it’s gone down, straight down” (21:21), indicating the negative economic impact despite these measures.

Foreign Policy Shifts: Ukraine and Russia

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Trump’s abrupt shift in foreign policy, particularly regarding Ukraine and Russia.

• Reversing Support for Ukraine

  Trump has reportedly switched sides in the conflict between Russia and Ukraine, halting military aid to Ukraine. Al expresses disbelief, saying, “It’s ridiculous. I mean, we have now changed sides” (10:48).

• Possible Motivations and Consequences

  Leibovich speculates on Trump’s possible motives, suggesting, “Perhaps Donald Trump owes some kind of debt to Vladimir Putin” (03:00). He warns of the potential for escalating tensions within NATO, stating, “If he decides to send a bunch of troops into Greenland, it’s not like they’re going to stop us… then it becomes a war against NATO” (09:36).

• Domestic Political Repercussions

  The switch has caused significant turmoil within the Republican Party. Senators like Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins have stood out in opposition, with Mark noting, “McConnell has voted against three nominees” (12:00), highlighting internal dissent.

Internal GOP Dynamics and Key Figures

The episode delves into the shifting dynamics within the Republican Party and the roles of key figures.

• Senator Marco Rubio’s Decline

  Once a prominent Tea Party figure, Rubio’s influence has waned. Mark reflects, “Rubio, it’s been kind of this steady decline and kind of an avalanche over the last 10 years” (13:04).

• Tulsi Gabbard’s Controversial Stance

  Gabbard has questioned the shared values between the US and Ukraine, leading to speculations about her loyalties. Mark summarizes, “There’s a lot of talk around that… I don’t see any daylight between what you just said, quoting her” (12:24).

Impact on NATO and Global Order

Trump’s actions signal a potential realignment in international relations, particularly concerning NATO.

• Erosion of US Leadership in NATO

  Leibovich emphasizes, “This undoes the entire sort of foreign policy order since World War II” (24:15). The unilateral shift risks destabilizing long-standing alliances and the global balance of power.

• Zelenskyy’s Position and Ukraine’s Future

  Ukrainian President Zelenskyy faces the brunt of these policy changes. Mark notes, “Zelenskyy has basically completely apologized” (24:52), reflecting Ukraine’s precarious stance amid shifting US support.

Economic Concerns and Inflation

The duo touches on broader economic issues exacerbated by Trump’s policies.

• Rising Inflation and Cost of Living

  Al points out, “There’s the price of eggs has gone up because they’ve had to kill how many chickens” (36:21), using the avian flu’s impact on poultry to illustrate broader inflationary trends.

• Federal Employee Layoffs

  Cutting USAID has resulted in significant layoffs, affecting not just federal employees in D.C. but across the country. Mark expresses the human cost, stating, “The human toll of the people who are losing their jobs from USAID is significant” (34:09).

Upcoming Elections and Political Future

Looking ahead, the conversation anticipates key elections and the need for Democratic leadership.

• Governor Races in New Jersey and Virginia

  These elections are pivotal, especially Virginia, due to its substantial federal workforce and cultural shifts. Mark observes, “Virginia has a lot of trumpy and sort of culture war elements to it” (40:00).

• Democrats’ Need for New Leadership

  Al and Mark discuss the Democratic Party’s struggle to find emerging leaders post-Obama era. Mark reflects, “Since Barack Obama ascended now what, 16, 15 years ago, Democrats have not been called upon to find new leader” (39:23).

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Al and Mark expressing concern over the current state of American politics. They highlight the unprecedented nature of Trump’s policies and the resulting chaos and uncertainty both in Washington D.C. and nationwide. Mark concludes, “It was just very uncharted. It doesn’t seem to be going terribly well” (42:25).

Notable Quotes

• “Trump certainly treated it that way. I know he set a record for people he introduced in the balcony.” — Al Franken (00:35)

• “We have now changed sides.” — Al Franken (10:48)

• “These tariffs are just, they're not good for either country.” — Mark Leibovich (03:30)

• “If he decides to send a bunch of troops into Greenland, it’s not like they’re going to stop us… then it becomes a war against NATO.” — Mark Leibovich (09:36)

• “The human toll of the people who are losing their jobs from USAID is significant.” — Mark Leibovich (34:09)

• “Since Barack Obama ascended now what, 16, 15 years ago, Democrats have not been called upon to find new leader.” — Mark Leibovich (39:23)

Timestamps Reference

• [00:35] Introduction of Trump's balcony guests.
• [03:15] Impact of tariffs on inflation.
• [03:30] Critique of Trump's tariff policies.
• [09:07] Length of Trump's speech.
• [09:36] Potential war against NATO.
• [10:48] Change of sides in foreign policy.
• [12:00] McConnell voting against nominees.
• [12:24] Tulsi Gabbard’s stance.
• [13:04] Marco Rubio’s decline.
• [24:15] Erosion of US leadership in NATO.
• [24:52] Zelenskyy’s position.
• [34:09] Human toll of USAID layoffs.
• [36:21] Egg prices and inflation.
• [39:23] Democrats needing new leadership.
• [40:00] Upcoming governor races.
• [42:25] Conclusion on political chaos.

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This summary encapsulates the critical discussions and insights from the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened. For a deeper understanding, listening to the full episode is recommended.

Transcript

[Al Franken]

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Al Franken podcast ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon music app today.

[Mark Leibovich]

This is a Reese's Peanut Butter cup sound experiment. We're looking to find the perfect way to hear Reese's so you'll buy more of them. Here we go. Reese's. Reese's. Reese's. Reese's. Reese's. Hey, get out of here, you little stinker. Reese's. Reese's.

[Al Franken]

Reese's Peanut Butter Cups.

[Mark Leibovich]

That breathy one sounded very creepy. Am I right?

[Al Franken]

Hey, everybody, we got a great one today. You know, for a change, our old friend Mark Leibovich joins me to discuss what's going on in our nation's capital. For those of you who you don't know, Mark, he's a staff writer at the Atlantic, formerly with the New York Times. He's also an MSNBC analyst. Trump gave his address to the joint session of Congress on Tuesday. Of course, the longest one in history for all intents and purposes. It was a State of the Union address. Trump certainly treated it that way. I know he set a record for people he introduced in the balcony. I may be wrong, but the first president I remember doing that was Ronald Reagan. And he had the one guy who had. He jumped into the Potomac to save a woman's. This is January, frigid waters, early 80s. This guy dived into those, those icy waters and the Potomac to save someone. And since then, other presidents have introduced people in the gallery, but nowhere near as many as Trump introduced this past week. But he had plenty of time to call Joe Biden the worst president in our history. I've never seen that. And then Trump blamed Biden and not the bird flu for the price of eggs. One of the people Trump introduced was Elon Musk, the head of doge, the Department of Government Efficiency. He's also the richest person in the world who cut off life saving aid from USAID to the poorest people in the world. And through doge, he has been firing untold numbers of federal employees throughout the country. About 85% of federal employees live outside the D.C. area, Virginia, Maryland and that area. So these are government workers all over the country who are getting the ax. Now. We had a close call on tariffs. President Trump threatened to raise tariffs on Mexico and Canada, then cancel them for a month after both countries threatened to retaliate. Of course, Trump always gets tariffs backwards. When we place tariffs on goods from other countries, our importers are the ones who pay the tariffs and they pass that cost on to American consumers, which drives up inflation. So our tariffs on other countries products increase inflation here, but other countries sometimes retaliate because it dries up the cost of their products here. And basically these tariffs are just, they're not good for either country. But Trump seems to love them. Meanwhile, we have a president who has switched sides in the war between an enemy Russia that invaded our ally Ukraine. This disgraceful turn of events is hard to fathom unless you consider that perhaps Donald Trump owes some kind of debt to Vladimir Putin. And I really can't begin to think what that could be. And how Vice President Vance climbed aboard the gang up on President Zelensky in the Oval Office. To me, that was bizarre. Maybe, maybe Vance knows something that we don't. All I know is that Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and then again in 2022, and that the United States had Ukraine's back from 22 until this January. And for some reason we've switched sides. Trump also has cut off any weapons and ammo to Ukraine. And the administration announced that Trump is weighing whether to revoke the legal status of 240,000 Ukrainians who fled to our country after Russia invaded theirs. Anyway, Mark Leibovich joins me for a great one today. You know, for a change.

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[Al Franken]

So last time we tried to talk to you, you were in Greenland and going from Greenland to. To Iceland, I believe.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, that was an adventure. Yeah, I was, I covered or I wrote about Donald Trump's inauguration in Greenland.

[Al Franken]

How many people do live in Greenland?

[Mark Leibovich]

50,000 in the whole country, which is less than the population of Bethesda, Maryland. 15,000 in the capital city of Nuke.

[Al Franken]

And that's where you spent most of your time?

[Mark Leibovich]

I spent 10 days there. I was supposed to spend five days. But the thing about Greenland is it's a very small airport and if it snows, which happens many, if not most days, they cancel the flights. And there's only one flight out of the country every week, and that's to Iceland, which is in the other direction. Eventually I got a flight to Iceland and then I was there a couple days. But these are all very nice countries.

[Al Franken]

Trump mentioned it in the speech again.

[Mark Leibovich]

Oh, yeah, he's all over it. I mean, it was interesting. I mean, going back to the inauguration, I mean, there was like a whole watch party for Donald Trump's inauguration speech in Greenland at the Parliament. And all these political junkie types and members of parliament were gathered around some office and they were kind of curious. It's like, hey, he's going to mention us. That'll be kind of interesting. Maybe we'll get a line. Maybe we'll get a couple lines. And then within minutes of the speech starting, when you sort of got a sense of the aggressive tone and the somewhat predatory tone that he was taking on foreign policy, everyone got really nervous and they started shaking their legs and was like, oh, I hope he doesn't mention us. Please don't mention us. Please don't mention us. And so he went for. He did Panama, which is usually first. He did. I think he did Canada, which is usually second. Then Greenland usually comes after Canada. So they're all holding their breath. But then he went right from Canada to Mars. So this member of parliament who was sitting next to me said, well, I guess he's now calling Greenland Mars. But anyway, they were relieved. But, yeah, no, he seems, you know, we'll get it. What did he say the other day? Like, we'll, we'll get Greenland or we'll, we will own Greenland no matter what it takes. Which of course is very menacing.

[Al Franken]

Now, of course, Denmark. It's part of Denmark. It's a territory of Denmark.

[Mark Leibovich]

It is, yes.

[Al Franken]

Right. And they have no interest in selling themselves. Now, what is to prevent us from getting a military base there?

[Mark Leibovich]

We already have a military base there. Yeah, I mean, there's a military. I mean, there Is like there are bases there. I mean, we technically protect or help protect Greenland as a NATO country or part of a NATO territory. So, yeah, there's all kinds of territory sharing and military base. So, yeah, I mean, that would be the major airport until recently.

[Al Franken]

And he talked about their precious metals, I guess, in the speech, in the State of the Union speech. And there's nothing going to stop us from trying to mine those if with their permission. Right, Yeah.

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean, you need to strike a deal. I mean.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, you strike a deal like we are with Ukraine or trying to do.

[Mark Leibovich]

We're trying to. Or Panama, which we're trying to do. Which, you know, the Panamanians don't seem to be terribly psyched about. But, you know, the fact is, and you know, a lot of the Greenlanders are saying this. I mean, if Donald Trump, I mean, he doesn't seem to be in a place where much is stopping him. If he decides to send a bunch of troops into Greenland, it's not like they're going to stop us. You know, then it becomes a war against NATO, which gets really fun really fast.

[Al Franken]

Well, I think if a country attacks NATO, the other NATO members are at war with whoever that is. So that we'd be at war with NATO.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, we. A NATO member, theoretically would be at war with NATO.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. Well, what did you think of the speech? I mean, you watched it, I assume.

[Mark Leibovich]

I did. It was long.

[Al Franken]

That's the longest ever.

[Mark Leibovich]

Longest speech ever. Set a record. It was like one hour, 30 minutes, even more maybe. You know, I actually, if you get through the noise of it, and there was a lot of noise of it, there was a lot of spectacle in the crowd. I mean, Democrats tried to hold up signs and Al Green of Texas, member of Congress, Democrat, got ejected for, you know, heckling and so forth. A lot of back and forth, a lot of standing ovations. There wasn't much news, I didn't think. And I sort of read the transcript a couple times, didn't see a lot of news there. A lot of bombast. I mean, if you sort of want to look at a tonal shift to going from like 11 to 13, you know, maybe you could go there. He reminded everyone that he still has designs on places like Greenland and what have you. I mean, this was kind of a classic separate the signal from the noise. And there was a whole lot of noise. But look, I don't think many people will remember it in a week.

[Al Franken]

Since then, he's said he's going to revoke the legal status for 240,000 Ukrainians.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, it does seem like the hits keep on coming for Ukraine. I mean, starting less than a week ago or maybe a week ago, you know. Well, it started a long time ago, sort of the day he was reelected. But, you know, the scene in the Oval Office, I mean, an actual, you know, the President saying we are pausing all military aid. I mean, those are. Yes, right.

[Al Franken]

It's ridiculous. I mean, we have now changed sides.

[Mark Leibovich]

It looks like it very fast. And what you just mentioned is part of that. I mean, look, it's very concerning. And you know, this is the same story we've been talking about for years now, which is theoretically. I mean, I talked to Susan Collins last week. She said, yeah, I think the vast majority of people in this caucus are very pro Ukraine and very supportive of the Reagan sort of. Look, I mean, most Republicans were supporting Ukraine in the last administration. Absolute silence pretty much in the last few days. There are a couple of exceptions. I mean, Lisa Murkowski said she has been sick to her stomach watching this, which is pretty strong.

[Al Franken]

So it's just Murkowski and Collins who have been willing to vote against these nominees.

[Mark Leibovich]

Well, McConnell has voted against three nominees.

[Al Franken]

And one of those is Kennedy.

[Mark Leibovich]

Kennedy, yeah, because, I mean, Kennedy. I mean, there's kind of a personal link with McConnell because Kennedy is a anti vaxxer. You know, the polio vaccine. O'Connell had polio as a child. He also voted against Pete Hagseth, Secretary of Defense, and Tulsi Gabbard, Director of National Intelligence. So, yeah, you got three, I think, Murkowski and Collins. He's voted.

[Al Franken]

Speaking of Tulsi Gabbard.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

She questioned whether Ukraine and the US really share common values and extended her critique to European countries that rallied around Zelensky, saying they didn't stand with us around the fundamental values of freedom. She's like a Russian asset, isn't she?

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean, there's a lot of talk around that. I mean, I think the bigger question is, is Donald Trump a Russian asset? I mean, look, she is essentially parroting the administration view. I mean, I don't see any daylight between what you just said, quoting her.

[Al Franken]

Well, I think that's amplifying the view. I mean, instead of just parodying it.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, but I mean, you know, every member of the Cabinet would probably parody that. I mean, what do you think, you know, Marco Rubio would say? I mean, he's interesting because he seems to have shifted his view even in the last few months. He was at that Oval Office thing. His body language was Kind of striking. I don't know if you saw that.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, he was sort of shrinking into his chair.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Could he have said something like.

[Mark Leibovich]

Stop.

[Al Franken]

That conversation from going there? I guess not.

[Mark Leibovich]

Not if he wanted to keep his job. I mean, he could have had a. We've said this probably many times about many different Republicans over the last several years. I mean, he could have had a career ending, but career defining moment and walked out or resigned or something like that.

[Al Franken]

A Liz Cheney moment.

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean, yeah. I mean, she didn't have like that dramatic visual, but it certainly played out over time and you knew where she was. You know, Rubio, it's been kind of this steady decline and kind of an avalanche over the last 10 years. I mean, you remember where we started in say, 2016, 2015. I mean, I remember with him. I mean, I remember when I first wrote about him and like when he first ran, he was like a Tea Party guy. I remember he was probably the most eloquent sort of foreign policy, Reagan, immigrant story, like anti Communism, anti Castro.

[Al Franken]

I mean, Cuban, of course.

[Mark Leibovich]

But yeah, yeah, I've heard. I mean, he. It was a very compelling argument. Now, you know, then that was kind of a hardcore Tea Party Republican view. But yeah, I was really impressed. And he got elected and, you know, it was basically his view for the first, you know, six, seven years in the Senate and then when he ran for president. And anyway, we know how this all.

[Al Franken]

Played out, but the Tea Party has kind of now adopted Trump, of course. Right. I mean, if you're, you're a maga, if you were Tea Party.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. You would think there's probably a pretty high correlation. I mean, I remember you'd walk around these Tea Party rallies, however many years ago, and they were so appalled that the deficit spending and all the deficits that Barack Obama was running up, the deficit was everything to them. Right.

[Al Franken]

Now, Trump said, though, that he is going to balance the budget. He said that in the State of the Union.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, he said that in the 2016 campaign. It's going to be so easy. I guess we'll see. I mean, it'll happen right after he ends the Ukraine, Russian war in 24 hours and build a wall, end Obamacare, whatever.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. Have you been following any of the Weather Channel stuff?

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean, only that they wanted to fund it. I mean, look, it's interesting. This is a classic thing that we take for granted. But, you know, as citizens, we basically indirectly avail ourselves to a lot of these forecasting services. Many of them run or certain subsidized by the government. And, you know, we have access to incredibly accurate weather forecasting. Now, like, I read somewhere this might not be true, but I think it's true. Sounds right. We have. We can predict what the weather will be in one week with a level of accuracy comparable, if not better than, say, 30 years ago. You could predict the weather tomorrow. Something like that, between computer stuff and forecasting things. So, yeah, I mean, when you pull the plug on that would presumably for a pretty relatively small cost. You know, you're affecting a lot of everyday lives. I mean, there's a reason. There's a ton of people out there who just watch the Weather Channel all day, many of whom I'm related to.

[Al Franken]

Well, people have said, why do we need. No, why do we need. We have the Weather Channel. And they don't realize, of course, that that is all made possible by Noah and.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, yeah. It's all connected. Because it's all connected. And, you know, you could. You really want to get literal about this. I mean, the weather is really the one thing you can watch on the news every night that actually affects your life. Right. I mean, in most cases.

[Al Franken]

Lutnik said something. He's the Secretary of Commerce, right?

[Mark Leibovich]

Yep.

[Al Franken]

He seemed a little confused about all this, but he, I think, is talking about privatizing the weather service.

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean, privatizing. I mean, you've heard this for years. I mean, that is the magic bullet to everything. Privatize them. Okay, well, what about this? It's going to go away. Privatize them. You know, so, I mean, that's like what they say, right?

[Al Franken]

But it is an amazing resource. And it's huge, too, right?

[Mark Leibovich]

Huge. Huge. But you know, again, like in sort of a budget sense, I mean, relative to the budget, you know, in any number of areas, whether it's the Pentagon or whatever, I mean, it's minuscule.

[Al Franken]

So. And they're firing these people. And I saw an interview on MSNBC with, I guess, four of them. They all seem pretty brilliant.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. So that's who we're getting rid of.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. Well, I'm sure they'll all be employed now that once it gets privatized, you know, probably make more money. It's all going to work out.

[Al Franken]

Is Musk. How many people has he gotten rid of?

[Mark Leibovich]

It's hard to get a count. I mean, they. I guess they've said. They're saying millions, like billions in savings. Trillions in savings. What have you. I mean, look, between numbers that I would not personally trust, anyone is free to trust them. And also the fact that a lot of these things aren't either being executed or being struck down in courts left and right. I mean, it's a very fluid situation. I mean, again, though, I mean, everything, if you think about. If even in the pretty much most extreme scenario, if they. If you are to take them all at their word that we are saving this amount of money still, a minuscule amount of money.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. And I don't think they're saving. No, they say they are.

[Mark Leibovich]

I'm not. I mean, it is a lot of showmanship. I mean, it's a chainsaw, whatever he's doing. Yeah. I mean, he's a force multiplier of chaos and bombast and, you know, destruction, it would seem like.

[Al Franken]

Who showed up for the State of the Union? Who didn't? Who left themselves out?

[Mark Leibovich]

People said they weren't. I mean, Chris Murphy didn't show up. I don't. Let's see, AOC, I guess, didn't show up. McConnell didn't show up. I'm actually writing about him and I was in his office a few hours before and I said, you're going to go? And he wouldn't really tell me. He said he was undecided and he stayed home. Although, in fairness, I mean, he's had health problems. He's pretty much in a wheelchair these days, so it's kind of hard to navigate. But you can't imagine. I mean, he's pretty awkward for him, too, because Trump hates him. I mean, the feeling is mutual. He's kind of isolated in his caucus and there'd be all these standing ovations going on all around him for things that he fundamentally and genuinely does not believe in, particularly abandoning Ukraine, things like that.

[Al Franken]

Is he that bad off that he would have to come in a wheelchair?

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, he's been seen around the Senate in a wheelchair. I mean, I guess he's had a series of falls. I think he had one last month. I mean, I think he might have a broken leg or something like that. But, yeah, when I was with him, he said he had to be in a wheelchair for another week. But, yeah, I mean, it's easier to navigate around the capital in a wheelchair. He also, again, had polio as a kid.

[Al Franken]

What does he have two years left?

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, he's not running again. He's up in 2026. So he says, you know, step down as leader. He's not going to run again. He says he's going to devote the next year and a half. His last days in the senate, he spent 40. This will be 42 years in the Senate, which he'll 84 when he leaves. So that's exactly half his life in the Senate. He's going to devote it to foreign policy, Ukraine, Russia, NATO, things that seem to be moving very fast against him in his own party.

[Al Franken]

And he obviously doesn't care about being singled out for speaking out.

[Mark Leibovich]

I don't think so. I don't think so.

[Al Franken]

But, you know, there's no stakes for him. Does he want to be able to go home and in retirement not be bothered by maga, people who hate him for this?

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, I mean, you would hope, you would think. I mean, that was kind of interesting. I mean, I don't, I mean, I don't have any knowledge of this except in reading tea leaves. He did vote for Cash Patel.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. Why is that?

[Mark Leibovich]

You know, who's, you know, like Gabbard, like Kennedy, like, you know, even like Matt Gates and things like that. I mean, just kind of a. Definitely a polarizing figure. I mean, you know, I did sort of wonder like, does he actually not want to be harassed by the FBI because, you know, the Trump people just despise Mitch McConnell and, you know, 84 years, sort of going into retirement, I mean, if he makes it that far. I mean, but I don't know. I don't have any sense of that. But yeah, presumably he would like to be able to retire and to some degree of peace and feel safe and have his family feel safe.

[Al Franken]

Now, the tariffs have been suspended on cars for Canada and Mexico.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. But I mean, the rest of them, I mean, a lot of the rest of the tariffs, you know, Canada, Mexico, China, I mean, still very much in effect. I mean, not sure how long, but I mean, you hear different things. He's going to back down. He's not going to back down. You know, the Canadians are going to save face or they're going to. Trump's going to save face by saying, well, look, the Canadians and Mexicans did this to stop the flow of fentanyl. But, you know, look, it's, there's not a lot of economists out there who, especially even conservative economists who are terribly excited about this. And look, the markets don't seem to be loving this either. So.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, it's gone down, straight down.

[Mark Leibovich]

Last week. Yeah. As of, I guess, Tuesday, when I was with McConnell a few hours before Trump's speech, you know, he's in the middle of all this Ukraine stuff. Market was tanking, Tariffs were in place that morning. And yet, so, I mean, I guess there's been some correction but ultimately it's about the same that it's, it's less than it was or around the same that it was when Trump won reelection.

[Al Franken]

We're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back with Mark Leibovich.

[Mark Leibovich]

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[Al Franken]

Now, Trump has switched sides basically, in this war.

[Mark Leibovich]

That seems to be where this is heading.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, I mean, that's where it is. I mean, he's cut off all our aid right to Ukraine.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. I mean, it's extraordinary. I mean. Yeah. And look, his party supports him, there's no question about it. I mean, he has a hammer lock on the Republican Party. The putative leaders of the party have followed suit, almost without exception. But. Yeah, this is extraordinary. I mean, this undoes the entire sort of foreign policy order since World War II or after. Since, you know, after World War II.

[Al Franken]

80. 80 years.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. And look, the thing is, I mean, you know, this, I mean, presidents have more discretion on foreign policy than they do in pretty much any area.

[Al Franken]

Right.

[Mark Leibovich]

It's not like you can pass legislation. I mean, I guess you can, you can do resolutions and legislation stuff, but I mean, you know, that is the area where you can, you can do a whole lot of damage, frankly. And, and this is kind of the, the whim of one man that is completely turning this ocean liner around. Which is, you know, which incorporates the American military, American values, American alliances, the whole, the whole nine yards. So, yeah, this is extraordinary.

[Al Franken]

And Zelenskyy has basically completely apologized.

[Mark Leibovich]

And I mean, yeah, I mean, Zelenskyy's in obviously a very precarious position. I mean, his country has been attacked. I mean, the attack is continuing, it's sustained, it's deadly. I mean, people are dying all around him. You know, it's a terrible war. I mean, everyone would like it to end. But I mean, what is interesting is I think Zelensky, I think a lot of people take a great deal of solace about the unity of the other NATO countries, a lot of the other countries around the world. And again, the fundamental question is, whose side are we on?

[Al Franken]

And can Europe step up enough?

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean, presumably they can. I mean, like, if Ukraine can hold off Russia as successfully and as fiercely as they have, I mean, presumably if you add the NATO countries to that, I mean, you'd have like, you know, seems like a possibly pretty even shot. I mean, obviously nuclear capabilities and so forth. It gets very dicey very fast. But, but again, like, what's the US Going to do?

[Al Franken]

Speaking of nuclear capabilities, can they send troops? They can't. NATO troops.

[Mark Leibovich]

Can Europe?

[Al Franken]

Yeah. I mean, if they did, are we then, then are we looking at World War Three?

[Mark Leibovich]

If they have their own alliance independent of the U.S. you know, the U.S. normally would obviously be the driving force here, presumably would have a veto. But, you know, if they decide they want to. Sure, why not? I mean, I hope it doesn't come to that.

[Al Franken]

Me neither.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

When is Trump going to say, okay, we'll have three party negotiations?

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean, it hasn't happened yet. Maybe a week from Thursday. Okay, yeah, week from Thursday. No, I don't, I, you know, hasn't happened yet. Which itself is kind of extraordinary.

[Al Franken]

This is. National Security Advisor Mike Waltz compared Zelenskyy to an ex girlfriend. Did you hear this?

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. What did he say again?

[Al Franken]

He compared him to an ex girlfriend that wants to argue everything that you said nine years ago rather than moving the relationship forward.

[Mark Leibovich]

I would say that that's an imperfect analogy.

[Al Franken]

It's more like an ex girlfriend who killed your family.

[Mark Leibovich]

Well, yes.

[Al Franken]

And tortured and kidnapped your children and gave them new identities.

[Mark Leibovich]

Correct. Yes. However, I would also say that, you know, you could theoretically have closure after that, sort of say, okay, I want to move on, but I mean, Ukraine hasn't moved on. They have been at war for nine years straight. Not nine years, literally.

[Al Franken]

Well, 2 14, 2014 was the invasion of Crimea, right?

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. I mean, 22 was, was Ukraine. But look, I mean, this is an ongoing and fierce and deadly and sort of dominant war in that country. And so, so, you know, when you have an ex girlfriend from nine years ago or ex boyfriend, whatever, you're not together. I mean, you're just, you're sort of, you're obviously not over each other. But this is an ongoing, clear and present threat.

[Al Franken]

Ukraine has said that they will never recognize the occupied territories as Russian. I mean, going in, that's going to be a hard position for them to hold. I mean, they want these negotiations because they want this thing to stop.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, I mean, well, I think they want this thing to stop, but they also don't want to alienate the United States. I mean, this is like by far the most important alliance they have. I mean, NATO, but I mean, you know, US is the major part of NATO. So. Yeah, I mean, I do think that even if there's some kind of peace treaty signed or some kind of, you know, de. Escalation of hostilities, and it's not like this thing ends. I mean, I guess it might, but I mean, this is, we're looking at a massive sort of ongoing point of, of tension. I mean, it would be nice if there weren't a war there, obviously.

[Al Franken]

But Zelensky, in that argument tried to point out that the Russians had violated agreements before, peace agreements.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. And they have.

[Al Franken]

And then that was when he was told he didn't thank them.

[Mark Leibovich]

He wasn't wearing a tie, Al. You saw how he was dressed.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. Evidently one of the new people that was allowed in was a right wing guy who actually, his question was, why didn't you wear a suit?

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if that was queued up from inside the White House. There's video of like Trump greeting Zelensky coming in. First thing out of Trump's math was, oh, you dressed up for the occasion. So.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, well, he asked Zelensky, this reporter asked Zelensky why he wasn't wearing a suit. And he says, well, he said something about in solidarity with my troops.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

And he said, but next time I might wear a suit, hopefully, and it might be nicer than yours.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, I mean, some were in the middle of it. I mean, Vance kind of Vice President Vance kind of picked up this mantle and said something like, do you own a suit? Something like that. And I think he was responding directly to Vance. But anyway, yeah, real high level topic.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, real high level. Okay, well then what else is going on in D.C. you're our D.C. guy.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, look, I mean, there's a lot of. A lot of fear, a lot of uncertainty, obviously. I mean, you do hear people, both parties, frankly. I mean, this goes well beyond the kind of level of unsettlement that we certainly had the first go round. They seem much more prepared. The checks and balances seem very much quite defanged in so much as they're worse the first time. I mean, there are no quote, unquote, adults in the room here. I mean, you mentioned Mike Waltz, Marco Rubio. I mean, if anyone was giving solace to the. Well, at least there'll be some adults in the room. Crowd their appointments fairly early on was comforting to some. I mean, look, they've been seemingly. If they have their own views, they're certainly not, you know, they're not expressing them publicly or probably not to Trump. You know, the Republican Senate has been extremely feckless.

[Al Franken]

I don't know if anyone. I mean, I guess I expected it starting pretty soon when you started seeing the votes on the nominees. I mean, RFK got through and Gabbard got through.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. Hegseth got through them and they all got through. I mean, except, I mean, Gates didn't get that far with him. But. Yeah. I mean, Bondi, who. I mean, it's pretty extreme. I mean, she got through easily.

[Al Franken]

Patel.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, no, no, totally. I mean, but if you look at, I mean, what checks and balances have been somewhat effective here, the courts maybe. I mean, they've definitely halted a bunch of this stuff or slowed it down. And, you know, theoretically, the allies, I mean, the NATO allies, I mean, they've tried. I mean, they've been much more outspoken than, you know, the Republicans.

[Al Franken]

Well, there's one thing that's important with the NATO allies and us right now at this moment, that's Ukraine.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, yeah. And we are cleanly split. I mean, it does not. We look, we are very much apart from the rest of NATO on this.

[Al Franken]

And this is an actual 180 by the United States. And he, of course, accused Zelensky of starting the war.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, I mean, if you sort of mention Washington, I mean, there is a. Some of it is like, oh, the look and feel of Washington culture. I mean, people are used to hanging out at the Trump Hotel, and now they're hanging out at some bar or pub on Capitol Hill and, oh, boy, you see people with red hats around. I mean. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, you know, and then you have the next level. I mean, the Kennedy Center. I mean, Trump now runs the Kennedy center and fired the whole board. And there's going to be a bunch of new board members of the Kennedy Center. I mean, what's the Kennedy center honors going to look like next year? I mean, Kid Rock is going to win every award or something like that or be honored.

[Al Franken]

A lot of people have canceled who were going to write.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. So I mean that. Okay, so that's the level of culture. But then look in the day to day and this didn't happen last time. Most people around town are either directly affected or know people who are being directly affected, either through job losses or certainly job uncertainty. You know, a lot of people you talk to, I mean, their emails are shut off like this. They don't know what it's about. They don't have anyone to call. Communication breaks down. I mean, so the chaos certainly feels a lot more is hitting home a lot more here. And obviously that's going to trickle down throughout the country. What. You know, partly because the federal government also exists.

[Al Franken]

What percentage of federal workers are not in D.C. it's quite, you know, I.

[Mark Leibovich]

Don'T have an answer for that, but there's quite a bit. How's that? I mean, you know, obviously this is the most concentrated federal workplace or area with federal workers, but. Yeah, I mean, there are federal workers in every state. Right. So. And some of them have a lot, especially, you know, Virginia, Maryland, you know, in areas around capital.

[Al Franken]

Well, I think all around the country.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, totally. Absolutely.

[Al Franken]

Lots of federal workers.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. And. But again, it's not just federal workers, it's who they work for. Right. I mean, it's. There's been a lot of focus, obviously on USAID because the administration is focused on it.

[Al Franken]

I mean, there was recently a judge who reversed some of that.

[Mark Leibovich]

Right. Yeah, some of that. Although it's unclear though. You know, we were talking about this. I mean, whether whether that's just foreign aid or whether that's usaid, literally and so forth. But anyway, we'll put that under the larger umbrella of uncertainty. Right.

[Al Franken]

But what USAID does is send food and medicine. That's mainly what they do. It is mainly the underdeveloped world where people are literally starving.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yes.

[Al Franken]

And literally getting diseases that are perfectly preventable. Right. By inoculation.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. And of course, you know.

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[Mark Leibovich]

So I mean, yes, the human toll of the people who are losing their jobs from USAID is significant, but I mean, that absolutely mushrooms out into real despair and you know, sometimes lethal in, in the countries that USAID helps.

[Al Franken]

So.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

And this is the richest guy in the world. I mean, the irony here, I mean.

[Mark Leibovich]

Look, no one knows what to make of him. I mean, you even ask Republican senators, congressmen, I mean, they don't know what to make of him. They just know that like they got to obey him. I mean, presumably they have private doubts about him. Presumably they roll their eyes about him like the way they used to Trump. But you know, look, they are not going to use whatever voice they have.

[Al Franken]

Carville said to be quiet and let him implode. Right.

[Mark Leibovich]

Well, they seem to be listening.

[Al Franken]

Well, I say the Democrats in Congress seem to be mainly listening. Yeah, people are showing up at stuff. Right. And the Republicans have canceled their town halls.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, that's true. And it's kind of pathetic and probably strategically maybe smart, but I mean, yeah, I mean there have been a few ugly visuals or videos of angry people and yeah, I mean, people, I assume this will build. I mean, we do need to remember, I mean, it's still March. I mean, we're not even two months in yet. I mean, it does in any administration, it takes a while to sort of arrive at what both the center of sort of day to day life is going to be, both in Washington, but also what the kind of public response is going to be. And look, I mean, some of the key bottom lines here is that, you know, inflation hasn't really gone down. You know, there's a lot of uncertainty around the economy. And so look, there's not a lot of patience out there, it would seem. And it would also seem that the Democrats, if they do get their acts together, you know, will have some pretty solid messages which is like, hey look, he's taken a perfectly good economy under the last administration and completely trashed it. I mean, something like that. I mean, there are some pretty concise economic arguments you can make, beginning with inflation. I mean, people focus on eggs, but that's across the board.

[Al Franken]

I mean, there's an avian flu.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

I mean, you have to understand the price of eggs has gone up because they've had to kill how many chickens. I mean, it's, I, you know, Minnesota has a lot of poultry and last time there was an avian flu, it was a huge, huge deal.

[Mark Leibovich]

Right.

[Al Franken]

And so of course the price of egg is going to go up. I think that's the last thing people should focus on.

[Mark Leibovich]

Exactly. Yeah. I mean the prices of pretty much everything continue to be high. I think Donald Trump is probably benefiting a bit at first from the long and sustained silence, the joke Biden had as a Democratic messaging president Right. I mean, you've gone from one extreme to another. And quite often presidential elections are an extreme reaction to what you had in the last one. And Biden's very diminished presence, certainly at the end of his presidency and even at the beginning, I mean, he was not the gifted messenger that he apparently was.

[Al Franken]

He kind of learned it from the campaign, because in the campaign, we were in the middle of COVID and he didn't have to do anything. He just stayed in his home and.

[Mark Leibovich]

He sort of stayed quiet. I mean, that was kind of the carville argument, circa 2019, 2020, which is like, okay, he's screwing up everything. Let's just let that be our central message. And, you know, lo and behold, it worked. But that was a very different time. But, like, look, I mean, I don't. I mean, Democrats need to find what they want to say, but more importantly, they need to find their leaders. You know, you remember, there is despair after every election. Remember the 2004 election? I mean, I remember you remember it because you were, you guys, you were on Air America then and I was sitting in 2004.

[Al Franken]

Yes. Yeah.

[Mark Leibovich]

Sitting in that theater in New Hampshire while you tackle the heckler of Howard Dean or something like that.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, I didn't tackle him.

[Mark Leibovich]

I lifted him up his legs, denying him purchase.

[Al Franken]

That's exactly.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yes. Whenever we have this discussion, you use the word purchase. And it was used in your quotes about that incident at the time. Everyone should read it. It was in a New York Times Magazine article by Russell Shorto. I used to work. And yes, in the quote, in that, the profile of Al Franken.

[Al Franken]

But the, the New York Post lied about it and said that I tackled the guy and, yeah, go to the ground or something like that.

[Mark Leibovich]

And anyway, you were around in 2004. Kerry lost. I mean, there was abject despair, like, what are Democrats going to do? I mean, Republicans control everything. Right.

[Al Franken]

But George W. Bush was not. Well, not this guy.

[Mark Leibovich]

Well, I mean, Donald Trump, it doesn't exactly wear terribly well in office. I mean, if the very limited precedent we have is true. But I guess my point is, by 2008, the future, the message, the messenger was apparent, and that was Barack Obama. And then Democrats didn't really have to choose any new leaders for eight years, and they didn't really bother to try again in 2016 because they figured it was Hillary's turn. And then Hillary lost, and then they didn't really bother to try again after that.

[Al Franken]

Some tried.

[Mark Leibovich]

Some tried.

[Al Franken]

It was a big field.

[Mark Leibovich]

It was a big field. You know, but you know, and look, Biden won fair and square, but it was not, I mean there was, there was no new leader was chosen. Let's just say that, I mean since Barack Obama ascended now what, 16, 15 years ago, Democrats have not been called upon to find new leader. And look, they just be nice if that process started earlier. Maybe it will in the midterms.

[Al Franken]

We have elections, of course, in what are the. It's New Jersey and Virginia.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. The big off year elections are governor of New Jersey, governor of Virginia, mayor.

[Al Franken]

Of New York, state legislature.

[Mark Leibovich]

State legislature too. I mean the big ones I think is the governor of Virginia just because Virginia has so many federal employees in it. Youngkin, the current governor who's not running again.

[Al Franken]

But he can't, right?

[Mark Leibovich]

He can't.

[Al Franken]

It's a one term, it's a one.

[Mark Leibovich]

And done thing in Virginia. But Youngkin is, I mean he's become such a culture warrior. I mean he's, he's you. He was a big. What was the big thing that was going to ruin America a couple of years ago?

[Al Franken]

It was critical race theory.

[Mark Leibovich]

He was like at the forefront of that.

[Al Franken]

They actually certain town halls had book burnings.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, exactly. He was a big book burning guy. Anyway, I mean, you know, Virginia has a lot of trumpy and sort of culture war elements to it, you know, in addition to the federal workers. So I think that might be the biggie this year. But, but I guess the point is, I mean this does play out over a while and, and we have not reached anything resembling what looks like a permanent level of, of what this early administration will look like. It's still very sort of early shock and awe. Ish. I would say.

[Al Franken]

So. Do you have any friends who have been laid off?

[Mark Leibovich]

Well, in journalism I do, but that's a whole different conversation. Yeah. Neighbors. Yeah. People I know. People I hear about. Yeah.

[Al Franken]

And so it must be a difficult time there.

[Mark Leibovich]

It is. I mean, again, I mean, I feel extremely lucky, but it's a terrible time. Yeah. Because we're surrounded by it. And just like any community that is hit by big job disruptions and big cultural disruptions and so forth, and there are variations that happen in state capitals and so forth. I mean, there's a lot of disruption. I mean, I think the added disruption here is just the total uncertainty and seemingly incoherent, sort of chaotic way that this seems to be being done. And also frankly, the sense that a lot of people think that malignancy is behind all of that malignancy to, you know, a very democratic city.

[Al Franken]

Have they talked about the federal government taking it over and not having a mayor and that kind of thing? Yeah, I mean, there was some noise about that.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, there is. Although the White House seems to be pulling back from that a little bit. Good. Yeah, there was that. I mean, I sort of would put that as kind of a back burner item at this point.

[Al Franken]

Right? Man, oh man.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, man, oh man. I mean, you know, look, it's all. There's got to be a platitude to end this with. But no, I mean, it's just, look, it's just very uncharted. It doesn't seem to be going terribly well.

[Al Franken]

Well, thanks.

[Mark Leibovich]

Hey, you're welcome, Al. Always good being with you.

[Al Franken]

Well, I hope you enjoyed listening. That beautiful music is by Leo Kotke, the great Leo Kotke. I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next week.

[Mark Leibovich]

If you like the Al Franken Podcast.

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