Mark Leibovich on Trump’s Chaos!

Summary

The Al Franken Podcast

Episode: Mark Leibovich on Trump’s Chaos!

Date: February 15, 2026
Guest: Mark Leibovich (Staff Writer for The Atlantic)
Host: Al Franken

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Episode Overview

Al Franken welcomes journalist Mark Leibovich for a wide-ranging, candid, and frequently exasperated conversation about the sustained chaos of Donald Trump’s presidency, especially as he enters his second term. The duo dive deep into recent policy moves, authoritarian tactics, public reactions, racism, and corruption, while also exploring the present and future of the Democratic Party. The episode has a mix of biting humor, political analysis, and somber warnings about the state of American democracy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Recent Moves: Climate, Immigration, and Authoritarianism

[01:33 – 10:13]

• Repealing EPA’s Climate Finding:
  Trump eliminated the EPA’s 2009 finding that climate change is dangerous, terminating the federal ability to regulate greenhouse gases.

  "So, big victory for fossil fuels and bad news for everyone else on the planet. Except for really old people, I suppose. Unless they die in a heat wave next summer." — Al Franken [03:21]

• Government Shutdown Looms:
  Republican hardliners threaten a shutdown over resistance to basic oversight like body cams and badges.

• Immigration Enforcement:
  Border czar Tom Homan announces the ‘immigration surge’ in Minnesota is ending, after questionable high-profile actions.

  "Well, Homan gave no specific timeline or really policy changes, so we Minnesotans will believe it when we see it." — Al Franken [04:36]

• Trump at the National Prayer Breakfast:
  Trump delivers a rambling, self-aggrandizing, conspiratorial, and authoritarian-tinged speech.

  “75 minutes of rambling narcissism, conspiracy theories, lies, bigotry, and so on.” — Al Franken quoting Peter Winter [05:36] “He referred to his critics as lunatics and compared them to dictators and The Gestapo... and praised El Salvador’s authoritarian president Bukele for his, quote, very strong prisons.” — Al Franken [06:08]

• Standing Ovation for Authoritarian Rants:
  Reflects a troubling level of support from key constituencies ("They liked what they heard." — Mark Leibovich [06:56]).

2. Legal Overreach and Failed Prosecutions

[07:01 – 09:23]

• Failed Indictments Against Democrats:
  U.S. attorney Jeanine Pirro unsuccessfully sought to indict Democrats for telling the military not to follow illegal orders.

  “It is very, very hard not to get an indictment from a grand jury... usually you get an indictment.” — Mark Leibovich [07:42] “...these are some weak, if not just purely comical, cases.” — Mark Leibovich [08:43]

3. Conspiracy Theories and Elections

[09:23 – 13:00]

• Trump’s Conspiracies About 2020 Election:
  Repeats claims of satellites and foreign interference while forgetting he was president during 2020.

  “Donald Trump would have been president while all this was going on... How could he allow all that to happen?” — Mark Leibovich [10:13]

• Save America Act:
  Trump’s push for restrictive voting laws—mandatory ID, sharp limits on absentee voting—targeting marginalized groups.

  "21 million Americans don’t have either [passport or birth certificate], according to the Brennan Center." — Al Franken [11:52] “This is not going to happen. Right. The Republicans are going to pass this in the House and then Democrats will stop it in the Senate.” — Al Franken [12:16]

4. Trump’s Use of Power and Corruption

[13:00 – 30:53]

• Supreme Court Gives Trump Immunity:
  Trump blocks $16B for New Jersey-New York tunnel, offers to release funds if Penn Station and tunnels are named after him.

  "Get as many things named after me as possible, you know, settle all personal grievances." — Mark Leibovich [14:17]

• Immigration Policy:
  Despite "closing the border," Trump's numbers on immigration remain underwater due to unpopular enforcement tactics and abuses.

  “He closed the border, too. I mean, you know, I think Americans have been—we’re pretty happy to see... number of immigrants... ground to a halt. What they don’t like is the ICE stuff...” — Mark Leibovich [15:05]

• Super Bowl Halftime Show Tirade:
  Trump rants about Bad Bunny’s performance, injecting nativism and racism.

  “The Super Bowl halftime show is absolutely terrible. One of the worst ever—all caps... And the dancing is disgusting, especially for young children.” — Al Franken quoting Trump [17:31] “But it’s so racist.” — Al Franken [19:48] “No, it was nativistic.” — Mark Leibovich [19:49]

• Trump’s Personal History of Racism:
  From housing discrimination to attacks on the Central Park Five, “shithole countries,” and recent racist memes.

  “There is a litany and, you know, we see it all the time. What really even now kind of stopped me in my tracks was that meme of the Obamas as monkeys... so over the top, even a handful of Republicans had to condemn it.” — Mark Leibovich [21:04]

• New Forms of Corruption:
  Trump administration’s unprecedented profiteering—cryptocurrency ventures, foreign money, rollback of regulations for donor benefits.

  “Do Americans mind that the President is making, and his family are making billions of dollars in the White House?” — Al Franken [28:12]

  “It’s the definition of corruption. But then, you know, there are new, exciting definitions that we see every week.” — Mark Leibovich [27:59]

5. Media, Democracy, and Accountability

[30:53 – 35:19]

• Washington Post Downsizing:
  Jeff Bezos has cut staff nearly in half despite enormous personal wealth.

  “If you have $250 billion, why not just keep the full staff?” — Al Franken [31:49] “It's, it's tragic... Even after they leave for other jobs... people who work there... felt very loyal to the place... And now, they've just basically been cut in half and gutted.” — Mark Leibovich [31:35]

• Editorial Independence and Compromises:
  Speculation about Bezos making changes to protect Amazon post-Trump.

6. Epstein Files Scandal

[35:19 – 43:06]

• Delayed Transparency & Lack of Indictments:
  Pam Bondi’s DOJ has released millions of files but heavily redacts names and has not indicted any key players.

  “No one has been indicted for any of this stuff.” — Mark Leibovich [36:47]

• Callousness to Survivors:
  Bondi ignored Epstein abuse survivors in hearings, presumably out of fear of appearing weak to Trump.

  “If I turn around and do any kind of acknowledgment here, it will look weak and the President will be angry with me. They're basically following the script of complete callousness.” — Mark Leibovich [38:26]

• Showboating & Partisan Attacks:
  Bondi’s behavior is “audience of one” politics, performing only for Trump.

  “I can’t imagine that’s persuading any voters, if that's even what this is about.” — Mark Leibovich [40:54]

• Democratic & Republican Pressure:
  The initial bipartisan support for transparency in these files has faded, and Republicans have largely moved on.

  “Maybe this is what the administration was counting on. It's just a whole lot of outrage at once, and it's hard for people to process this.” — Mark Leibovich [42:21]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s Chaotic Rule:

  “Every day there are new viral videos out there... the video that's available is an extremely powerful tool for people who, not only oppose this, but who want to get the word out about it.” — Mark Leibovich [26:07]

• On Corruption:

  "The first check and balance of a president is, is the president’s own decency and conscience and patriotism..." — Mark Leibovich [30:10]

• On Democratic Party’s Challenges:

  “Democrats have not, I would say until maybe recently, waged a particularly effective fight against what Trump has done and the abuses.” — Mark Leibovich [50:10]

• On Working-Class Voters:

  “Obama won working-class voters by a huge 22 points... against Kamala, Trump carried it by a couple.” — Al Franken [53:14]

• On the Future:

  “These wilderness periods are hard to talk about and hard to quantify.” — Mark Leibovich [61:44]

• On Election Integrity:

  "He said recently he wants to nationalize elections, which, you know, doesn't make a lot of sense, but... it's authoritarian, really at the definition of authoritarian in some ways." — Mark Leibovich [63:22]

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Important Segment Timestamps

| Time | Subject | |----------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:33 | Introduction, climate deregulation, government shutdown, Trump administration | | 05:25 | Trump’s Prayer Breakfast speech, conspiracy theories, authoritarian praise | | 07:01 | Failed indictments, grand juries, legal overreach | | 09:23 | Election conspiracy theories, "Save America Act" voting restrictions | | 13:00 | SCOTUS immunity, Gateway Project, personal aggrandizement | | 17:31 | Super Bowl, Trump’s nativism and racism | | 20:04 | Trump’s racist history, recent racist memes | | 27:29 | Corruption: nursing homes, crypto ventures | | 30:53 | Media cuts: Washington Post, Bezos’ priorities | | 35:19 | Epstein files, congressional hearings, survivor testimony | | 48:08 | Democratic Party post-2024, Ken Martin interview | | 53:00 | Working class vote shifts, Democratic identity crisis | | 56:00 | Texas and Maine Senate races, new Democratic candidates | | 60:08 | Democrats’ chances to retake House, warning against complacency | | 63:04 | Election integrity, threats of federalizing elections |

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Tone and Style

The episode is saturated with a mix of gallows humor, blunt language, and open frustration at the state of American politics. Both Franken and Leibovich are sarcastic but never unserious about the dangers discussed. The analysis is both bleakly comic and sharply analytical, reflecting their backgrounds in political reporting and satire.

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Concluding Reflections

• The conversation yields profound concern for democracy, the rule of law, and basic decency. Both guests emphasize how Trump’s behavior is not only breaking norms but actively corroding core institutions.
• The Democratic Party’s struggles with its own identity, message, and coalition-building are diagnosed as severe but potentially rebounding in the short term, bolstered less by their own strength than by revulsion toward Trump’s GOP.
• The undercurrent is urgency: vigilance is essential, and outcomes in 2026 and beyond are far from assured.

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Transcript

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[Al Franken]

Hey everybody. It's a great one today, you know, for a change, our pal Mark Leibovich, writer for the Atlantic, joins me again. We have what's called a wide ranging conversation, but with a recurring theme. Just how fucking awful this president and the people around him are. Here's a good example. The White House announced this week that Trump has repealed the 2009 finding by the EPA that climate change is a danger to humankind and is terminating the federal government's authority to regulate greenhouse gases. Trump, who calls climate change a hoax, is touting the elimination of the radical rule that became the basis for the, quote, green New scam. This will be challenged in court and will work its way to the Supreme Court, where we will lose on a 6:3 vote. How do you know that? Al? Oh, come on. So big victory for fossil fuels and bad news for everyone else on the planet. Except for really old people, I suppose. Unless they die in a heat wave next summer. Let's see. Any good news? No, I guess the Government is going to shut down. It seems that Republicans are taking a hard line. No budging on masks, on body cams, on wearing name tags or short of that, badge numbers, and requiring the use of judicial warrants to enter and search a home. So the Department of Homeland Security, which is huge, will have a shutdown. ICE won't be affected since it's flush with funding from the big beautiful bill. But the Coast Guard, fema, the Secret Service and TSA will experience various hardships. As I said, this is an awful president with awful people around him and in Congress. Meanwhile, border czar Tom Homan announced that the immigration enforcement surge in Minnesota would be ending. As the Minneapolis Star Tribune reported, Homan praised the Trump administration's immigration operations in Minnesota, saying the surge has resulted in taking violent criminals off the street like five year old William Ramos. Well, that's not fair. They didn't take him off the street. They took him out of school. Well, Homan gave no specific timeline or really policy changes, so we Minnesotans will believe it when we see it. Well, we got our friend Mark Lebovich of the Atlantic and we get into a lot of stuff, some of it not awful, like the Winter Olympics. Oh, wait, I forgot to ask Mark about that. Well, still, it's a great one, you know, for a change. So sorry about the Patriots.

[Mark Leibovich]

Oh, man. Wasn't it great, though, to see them back in the Super Bowl?

[Al Franken]

Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's great.

[Mark Leibovich]

To see them lose, right?

[Al Franken]

I, I, I actually, I was glad for Seattle in a way, but it was, it was a pretty boy, it was not a good game.

[Mark Leibovich]

It was a terrible game.

[Al Franken]

It was a terrible game. Okay, let's start with, I just want to start with some Trump stuff. I don't know if you caught his speech at the prayer breakfast last week.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yes. Yeah, he was never prayerful. This was, I mean, of course, like 10 things have happened since then. But yeah, he, I, I saw, I got, I didn't watch the whole thing.

[Al Franken]

No, mean, I watched a little bit of it and then I thought. But your, your colleague at the Atlantic, Peter Winter, wrote about it. Sometimes my, my listeners don't want to hear Trump's voice at all. Yeah, I'll talk about what. Here are some of my favorite. He said that Wenner said that it was 75 minutes of rambling narcissism, conspiracy theories, lies, bigotry, and so on. Here are my favorite bits. Remember, this is the National Prayer Breakfast, okay? And he referred to his critics as lunatics and compared them to dictators and The Gestapo, the prior brokers. Trump praised El Salvador's authoritarian president Bukele for his, quote, very strong prisons, meaning sea cot, of course, and said, bukele is one of my favorite people.

[Mark Leibovich]

Wow. Really?

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[Mark Leibovich]

That's gracious. Maybe he's extending grace, prayerful grace to one of his favorite leaders.

[Al Franken]

And then Trump, for all that, got a standing ovation at the National Prayer Breakfast.

[Mark Leibovich]

Standing ovation, that stuff. They liked what they heard.

[Al Franken]

I guess so. So U.S. attorney Jeanine Pirro tried to indict these six Democrats who made a video telling members of the military and the intelligence community. All he said was, don't obey orders that are. Are illegal. A federal grand jury failed to indict them. What were the charges? What are the charges on that?

[Mark Leibovich]

I don't know. I mean. I mean, first of all, like, who is the attorney that has to go before the grand jury? I mean, who even.

[Al Franken]

Well, it had to be Piro Pirro herself, because no one else would do it, I assume.

[Mark Leibovich]

I assume. Although maybe they. I mean, I don't know. I mean, look, I mean, I guess to sort of state what people who know about these things have said in the last few days, which is that it is very, very hard not to get an indictment from a grand jury because basically you have the prosecutor going in and just giving, you know, only their side of the story. You just say, look, there's this, this, this, this, and that's really bad. So we think that this person needs to be indicted and, you know, this needs to go to court. You know, the bar is pretty low. I mean, usually you get an indictment. I mean.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, but if you're. This, this, this, and this. What is this, this, this, and this with this.

[Mark Leibovich]

Well, usually this and this are facts. They are legal. Legal.

[Al Franken]

I know the facts here are pretty simple, which is that they said, you know, don't follow illegal orders.

[Mark Leibovich]

But.

[Al Franken]

But, you know, the grand juries have not been indicting on a number. Letitia J. Yeah. Letitia James.

[Mark Leibovich]

No, I mean, these are some weak, if not just purely comical cases. You know, you can obviously say, you know, regular people are standing up to this, this idiocy, this authoritarianism and so forth. But look, I mean, we only hear about the ones that aren't happening. I mean, you can imagine the things. I mean, I assume they're getting indictments everywhere. I mean.

[Al Franken]

Well, they're not getting indictments for stuff like this.

[Mark Leibovich]

No, not for stuff like this, but people we've never heard of the Trump administration decides, you know, is worthy of their Punishment for whatever reason. So, yeah, chilling. But in this case, you know, I think definitely the just result was achieved.

[Al Franken]

So this, this is also going back a couple of weeks now when Trump sent Tulsi Gabbard and the FBI to Fulton county to get a hold of the 2020 ballots. I just saw that as Trump posted a series other conspiracy theories. Okay. And here are some stuff he posted. Italian satellites have been used to hack in the voting machines and flip votes to Biden. That old one, we heard that back in 2020, right?

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

China coordinated the whole operation, you wrote the CIA oversaw it, the FBI covered it up, all to install Biden as a puppet. Okay, that.

[Mark Leibovich]

Wow. By the way, Donald Trump would have been president while all this was going on because this happened in 2020. I mean, he was president. How could he allow all that to happen? I mean.

[Al Franken]

Well, evidently the Democrats had control of all that.

[Mark Leibovich]

No, I mean, Biden wasn't president yet.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, the CIA oversaw it. His CIA. The FBI covered it up. You know how they control the FBI.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

I think this makes me question whether there was a good reason for the FBI to go to Georgia pick up.

[Mark Leibovich]

You think? Yeah, yeah, I, I think that makes me question that too, now that you mentioned it. I hadn't thought about it to this point. No, it's. I mean, but look, I mean this is this complete lunacy here. I mean, that's the, I don't know, late night truth social version of the prayer breakfast rant. And of course, you know, his base gives him the virtual equipment of equivalent of a standing ovation. I mean, I don't know, it just it on and on it goes.

[Al Franken]

Okay, he's demanding that Congress pass the Save America act on, on Sunday. He posted this past Sunday. America's elections are rigged, stolen and a laughingstock all over the world. We are either going to fix it or we won't have a country any longer. Are we a laughingstock all over the world?

[Mark Leibovich]

Yes.

[Al Franken]

I mean, because of our elections are rigged.

[Mark Leibovich]

Well, partly because of who wins the election sometimes.

[Al Franken]

Well, here, here's what Trump writes. I'm asking all Republicans to fight for the following. The Save America Act. All voters must show voter ID, which are passports or birth certificate. And 21 million Americans don't have either. According to the Brennan center, all voters must show proof of United States citizenship.

[Mark Leibovich]

To register for voting.

[Al Franken]

No mail in ballots except for illness, disability, military or travel. That's generous. This is not going to happen. Right. The Republicans are going to pass this in the House and then Democrats will stop it. In the Sen. Yeah.

[Mark Leibovich]

Presumably. I mean. Yeah. I don't even know if they'll do it in the House. I mean, the margin is so. Is getting thinner by the day. And, you know, there are handfuls of Republicans who seem to be empowered around things.

[Al Franken]

They voted against tariffs and voting against tariffs.

[Mark Leibovich]

You know, Epstein.

[Al Franken]

Well, Epstein, that was unanimous.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, it was unanimous, except for one.

[Al Franken]

One member of them.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. But I mean, look, so there's. I mean, I wouldn't say the House is as sure, but as maybe it normally would be. But. Yeah, it shouldn't go anywhere in the Senate.

[Al Franken]

Now, the Supreme Court given him full immunity, so he feels that he can ignore the law. Like, okay, this is a story, recent story.

[Mark Leibovich]

He.

[Al Franken]

With. He's withholding the $16 billion on the tunnel from New Jersey to New York.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, New Jersey. The Gateway project.

[Al Franken]

Right. Yeah. And. But he told Schumer that he'd release the funding if he could have Penn Station and dolls named for him.

[Mark Leibovich]

Look, he's really, it's interesting. I mean, he's kind of a classic version of the idea that when you age, you become a more exaggerated version of yourself every single day. And usually not for the better. Right. Especially when you control the nuclear codes and. And what have you. But, I mean, it's. Yeah, it's comical. I mean, you know, we can. It's funny, but it's not funny. I mean, how many different ways can you say this? Schumer told them, I assume. I assume it is.

[Al Franken]

Schumer said, I don't have the power to do that.

[Mark Leibovich]

I don't have the power to do that. Correct. Which is true. And it's probably.

[Al Franken]

He's the minority leader and.

[Mark Leibovich]

Good way to blow him off. Yeah, it's comical. I, I think. But it does give you a window into, you know, how he sort of, how his mind is sort of ordered or disordered in his second term, which is get as many things named after me as possible, you know, settle all personal grievances.

[Al Franken]

But he's not doing anything kind of, you know, that people want him to do.

[Mark Leibovich]

No, no, no, no, no. You could say, I mean, look, you can say even on the most substantive parts and troubling parts of this, on, say, the immigration rates. Right. I mean, they will say this is what Donald Trump was elected to do. I mean, American. America wanted people to get. American people voted, you know, get tough on immigration and some degree. That's true. Right. And he.

[Al Franken]

It is true. I mean.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. I mean, he closed the border, too. I mean, you know, I think Americans have been. We're pretty happy to see that the number of immigrants who are crossing the border, you know, really ground to a halt. What they don't like is. Is the ICE stuff and what's been going on and. And obviously what's been abused in any number of American cities right now, and it's really kind of come home to roost. But, I mean, his numbers on immigration are underwater, too. So I don't know. But no, no, voters did not vote for. You know, if you look at. If you look back on what voters voted on in 2024, the issue of what should Penn Station be named was not a big issue. Right. The issue of what to do with the Kennedy Center, Greenland. I mean, go down the list. I mean, the things that he seems to be spending a whole lot of time thinking about were not what got him elected in 2020. 24.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. And. And you wrote this piece. We'll talk about it a little bit later. The Democrats aren't. Aren't built for this. Is that basically he got elected on. On immigration and on cost of living and economy and. And all those things he's underwater on now.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, no question.

[Al Franken]

I saw a poll. Poll yesterday that Biden would beat him now.

[Mark Leibovich]

Well, yeah, I mean, the poll, like, eight points, too. I mean, it was like. I think the poll is like, who's done a better job as president? You know, who was a better president and, you know, a pretty decisive margin right now. Say Joe Biden, who was not the most popular guy in the world even now. But, I mean, look, I mean, his. The denouement of his presidency was tragic, and I think probably had as much to do with Kamala Harris's defeat as anything. But I do think that the best thing Democrats have going for them and even Joe Biden retroactively has going for them, is the specter of what is going on in the White House and in the Republican Party right now. Yeah.

[Al Franken]

A year ago, four years after January 6, the worst crime any president has ever committed. He got elected or reelected. Is it reelected or.

[Mark Leibovich]

Well, I think he did. Yeah. I've kind of gone back and forth on this, too. I've had copy editors getting involved in this. I think technically he was reelected because he was. It doesn't have to be contiguous.

[Al Franken]

Okay. I want to talk about the halftime show at the Super Bowl. You know who didn't like it? Trump.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

I got to read what he said. Okay. Okay. The super bowl halftime show is absolutely terrible. One of the worst ever, all caps. It makes no sense is an affront to the greatness of America and doesn't represent our standards of success, creativity, or excellence. I think Bad Bunny is successful and creative and excellent. Anyway, nobody understands a word this guy is saying. And the dancing is disgusting. Especially for young children who are watching this.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Throughout the USA and all over the world.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

This show is just a slap in the face to our country, which is setting new standards and records every single day, including the best stock market and 401ks in history. There's nothing inspirational about this mess of a halftime show. And watch, it will get great reviews from the fake news media because they haven't a clue of what is going on in the real world. And by the way. And this interests you, by the way, the NFL should immediately replace its ridiculous new kickoff rule, Make America Great again. Now, I think that the kickoff rule is to prevent injuries because there's incredible number of injuries on the old kickoff. Right?

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. They were deemed dangerous. I don't know. I mean, the NFL isn't my world anymore, but I don't know if injuries have gone up, gone down and so forth. Obviously the guy doesn't like the kickoff rule and, you know, that's fine. That's a good sports.

[Al Franken]

Well, you wrote a great book about.

[Mark Leibovich]

I did. How I was derelict. Big game. Big game. But at the derelict. I was derelict because the new kickoff rule had not gone into effect yet, so I couldn't comment on it. No, I think. Look, I mean, it is kind of funny that, you know, at the end of this ridiculous rant about suit that he kind of pivots to like, just. Yeah, I don't like this either.

[Al Franken]

But it's so racist.

[Mark Leibovich]

No, it was nativistic.

[Al Franken]

But I want to just go into how racist he is for a second.

[Mark Leibovich]

Sure, why not? Okay.

[Al Franken]

So I guess his history starts with the Trump company being sued. Right. By the federal government.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. Not. Not renting to. To. To black.

[Al Franken]

To black people.

[Mark Leibovich]

Ranchers. Yeah. Okay.

[Al Franken]

And they settled on that.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. That was in the 70s.

[Al Franken]

Okay. And then he called for the death penalty for the Central Park Five.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Who are black and Latino. He took an ad out in the New York Times calling for the return of the death penalty for them. And they were innocent. It goes after Somalis in Minnesota. That was the excuse to sending ICE in for some reason was the fraud there. And he tied it. And like 95% of Somalis in Minnesota are citizens. He called Somalia shithole country along with pretty much every African country. He's now going after Haitians and revoking their temporary protective status and he limits immigration to white Africans. And so, no, I guess I would.

[Mark Leibovich]

Just say that, yeah, there is a litany and you know, we see it all the time. What really even now kind of stopped me in my tracks was what, 10 days ago or last week, whenever it was that meme of the Obamas as monkeys. Did you see that?

[Al Franken]

I did. As, as, as apes? Yes.

[Mark Leibovich]

As apes. Yes, as a. It was, it was so over the top, even a handful of Republicans had to condemn it. Even, you know, eventually the thing got. But like, yeah, I mean, it's just like you just have to shake your head after a while. I mean, it's so just subtlety is just the subtlety of this, if there ever was any. Actually, there is no subtlety. I mean, the birther thing was not subtle. I mean. But yeah, I mean, it's like it's one of those reminders, one these chilling reminders of what is in the White House right now.

[Al Franken]

They took it down. But he wouldn't apologize for it.

[Mark Leibovich]

I wouldn't apologize. No, I mean, he doesn't. I mean, I'm convinced I, I'll at this point have enough information to, to, to, to declare that this is who he is. How's that? I've made my decision.

[Al Franken]

Good for you. We're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back. We've marked the leverage. You know, I'm always skeptical about skincare products that promise big results, but One skin has genuinely surprised me. My daughter Thomason has been using their products for the last few months and she just loves them. She says the OS1 face topical supplement has improved and maintains firmness. And OS1 tinted face SPF is very light and not at all greasy. What really caught my attention about Oneskin is that it's founded by an all women team of PhD longevity scientists. These aren't just marketing claims. They've actually proven their patented OS1 peptide targets the cells that are a key driver of wrinkles, fine lines and loss of elasticity. And this has been validated in four peer reviewed clinical studies, which is pretty rare in skin care. I am at least I'm told. I also love that their products are certified safe for sensitive skin. They've even earned the National Eczema association seal of acceptance. So you're getting powerful results without irritation. The best part, everything layers seamlessly into your routine or can replace multiple steps entirely. With over 10,000 5 star reviews and recognition from Fast Company, Bloomberg and the Today show, Oneskin is leading the way. In skin longevity, born from over a decade of longevity research, OneSkin's OS1 peptide is proven to help you unlock your healthiest skin now. And as you age, for a limited time, try one skin with 15% off using code FRANKEN@ ONESKINCO. Franken, that's 15% off at ONESKIN Co with Code Franken. After you purchase, we'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. And we are back with Mark Leibovich. I read your piece last month. You wrote a piece, Trump's new method of humiliation.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

You kind of used the gnome situation as Minneapolis. In Minneapolis, but not firing her because he won't admit a mistake now, right?

[Mark Leibovich]

Never. But also, he's surrounded by utter loyalists. I mean, you know, Kristi Noem is, you know, in traditionally. I mean, she's not a. She's a joke in some ways. Right. But she is Dear Leader. She performs for him. She's a comical, but also kind of an ideal version of exactly what he wants in a Department of Homeland Security, you know, secretary. And so look. But I mean, basically, he didn't fire her. She was humiliated because they had pulled her out of Minneapolis. They sent Tom Homans in.

[Al Franken]

Well, they pulled out Bovino. She wasn't always in Minneapolis.

[Mark Leibovich]

Oh, no. But no, she was there for a while. I mean, like, it was enough to sort of make a show of pulling her out.

[Al Franken]

But she did say, everything I've done, I've done at the direction of the President and Stephen Miller.

[Mark Leibovich]

Correct. Which I believe.

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean, whether they gave a direct order or not, I mean, she certainly was doing things in line with what I expect their wishes to be.

[Al Franken]

I mean, the ICE raids and especially, obviously, the murders. People don't like Trump's general approach to immigration. He's underwater on immigration, which was one of the things he was elected on. Right?

[Mark Leibovich]

100%. Yep. Yeah. And. And look, I mean, every day there are new viral videos out there. I mean, this started in Chicago, I guess, LA and Chicago, I mean, and all over the country. I mean, I mean, the. The video that's available on this is. Is an extremely powerful tool for people who, you know, not only oppose this, but who want to get the word out about it. And I think that's really what's driven public opinion more than anything.

[Al Franken]

I mean, he didn't fire hag Seth after.

[Mark Leibovich]

Signal. Signal. Right.

[Al Franken]

Signal gate.

[Mark Leibovich]

And Mike Waltz was the. He was a National Security advisor, the first National Security advisor.

[Al Franken]

He was just moved to the U.N. yeah, exactly.

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean, he. He, you could argue, got a better job. I mean, they made him U.S. ambassador to the U.N. you know, and so that's a lateral move at worst, I think. So, yeah. It didn't fire him either. But, you know, it goes to the idea that he doesn't. He kind of seems to not care about what anyone thinks of him anymore, which is a dangerous place for someone to be and certainly a party to be, but they're still, you know, in full control of the government.

[Al Franken]

I would think that Republicans who are running in the midterms would like him to think more about what people can think of him. Wouldn't you?

[Mark Leibovich]

You would think. I don't know. Most of them just seem so far gone at this point.

[Al Franken]

Let's talk a minute about his corruption. I mean, here's one I just read the other day. Biden had enacted a rule to make sure that there's sufficient aids in nursing homes. Right. Trump got a donation from nursing home owners, and he ended the rule.

[Mark Leibovich]

Wow. Sounds related.

[Al Franken]

It sounds related. It means more dead seniors, right? I mean, yeah.

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean, it's the definition of corruption. But then, you know, there are new, exciting definitions that we see every week.

[Al Franken]

Well, how about the cryptocurrency shit?

[Mark Leibovich]

Oh, my God.

[Al Franken]

Do Americans mind that the President is making, and his family are making billions of dollars in the White House?

[Mark Leibovich]

No, because, you know, he's not taking a salary. You know, they're always doing that. Like, you sort of say, well, you know, they've. They've. Been. It's been estimated that $5 billion have gone into the Trump family coffers because of this, this, this, this. And then you'll always say, well, you know, he is not taking a presidential salary. He is saving taxpayers money.

[Al Franken]

$400,000 or something like that. Yeah, that's what it was.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. No, I love that. They're always using that. And, you know, and he can fly that $400 million jet he got from Qatar, and he got.

[Al Franken]

They got a $500 million investment in the world, Liberty Financial, which is their. One of their crypto ventures. And then the UAE got 500,000 advanced AI chips annually.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like. It's staggering. I don't think Americans like this. I don't think most of them think about it or know about it or understand why it's corrupt and why it's terrible and why any president preceding Donald Trump would, you know, presumably have been impeached for something like that. But I don't know. I don't have the language anymore to say this is where we are. I mean, some things break through more than others. I mean, I think the Minneapolis stuff was very powerful. And again, it helps to have video. It helps to see everyday people actually palpably physically being, you know, affected by this. But in the day to day, I mean, most Americans are busy trying to live their lives and it's, it's really too big to get their head around or they can't be bothered with it and can't say I blame them. I mean, it's, it's just we trust our presidents not to do this stuff. I mean, you talk about checks and balances. The first check and balance of a president is, is the president's own decency and conscience and patriotism and knowledge of what's proper and what's legal and so forth. This seems to not apply in this case. I mean, yeah, obviously presidents sometimes will step over a line or will, you know, there'll be gray areas and so forth. And we've seen that's what scandals have been in history, but nothing like this. Nothing. Not even close.

[Al Franken]

We met when you did a profile of me when I was in the.

[Mark Leibovich]

Senate for the New York Times Times Magazine. We spent a lot of 2016 together, and the piece came out, I think, right around when Trump was inaugurated in 2017.

[Al Franken]

And so you're a newspaper guy. I mean, that's obviously right to the Atlantic now. So you know something about newspapers. And I just wanted to ask you about Bezos and, and the Washington Post. Okay. He's cut their staff by about what, 30% or something like that.

[Mark Leibovich]

Sounds like it's like in the 40s. I mean, it's close to half.

[Al Franken]

Really?

[Mark Leibovich]

Sounds like it. Yeah. If you sort of take it over time, it's like close to half.

[Al Franken]

Okay. Now the guy's got $250 billion.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yep.

[Al Franken]

So you don't. He didn't buy the Post, presumably to make money, right?

[Mark Leibovich]

Money, yeah.

[Al Franken]

If you have $250 billion, why not just keep the full staff?

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. I mean, I personally don't have $250 billion, so I can't pretend to know how, how a guy like that thinks. But look, I mean, it's, it's tragic. I mean, I, I mean, you're right. I'm a, I'm a newspaper. I worked. I spent, you know, almost 10 years at the Washington Post before I went to the Times, and I love that place. I mean, that place was. Even when I was at the Times for many years, I considered the Washington Post, the home team. And it was also probably the, the one institution that led me into journalism, you know, long before I worked there, like all the President's men and, and so forth and people. I do know that, that, first of all, people who work there, 10 have traditionally just loved the place, felt very loyal to the place, even after they leave for other jobs. But, yeah, in a case like this, you have literally, if not the richest guy in the world, it's got to be top, what, top five or something like that. You know, I can see why a person, a business person doesn't want to lose money. Right. I mean, you buy the Washington Post, you ideally, you try to make money with it. Right.

[Al Franken]

I mean, I can understand he, he changed his editorial policy.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

After, After Trump won that. Because he's got the $250 billion because of. Of Amazon and he wants to protect Amazon.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. I mean, you would think. I mean, I thought. And he gave all the, you know, assurances, really, for the first number of years of his since he bought it, which was in 2013, that, you know, he respected the tradition. He respected the church and state separation between editorial and the newsroom. And, you know, he seemed to be a pretty responsible and pretty committed steward to that tradition. And something, something twisted. I mean, something, Something went very south. And I don't know what it was about Trump, too. I don't know if it was the outward threats to his other businesses, the satellite stuff. You know, just like Amazon is, obviously, they've got their. They've got their hands in everything, a lot of things. And so it's hard to know what it is. But I mean, when you see, I mean, this is less. It's kind of. I think it's harder for everyday people to appreciate because it's not the editorial side, but the newsroom. Even when the newsroom started, like, sort of becoming more bezos y in the last couple of years, whatever you know, accommodations they made to Trump, I mean, the newsroom was operating pretty well. I mean, that was. That newspaper even, you know, in most of the Bezos era was breaking big stories, you know, extremely competitive. I mean, some of the best journalists I know, they still are to a point, but they are severely depleted. I mean, they've just basically been cut in half and gutted morale there seems just dreadful. You just sort of got to wonder why. I mean, again, it's one thing if the owner is going bankrupt. It's the other thing where you have a guy who could probably fund, I don't know, 500 papers in the country, like big papers in the country, just. And still have plenty of money left over for his rockets and planes, for his yacht.

[Al Franken]

I mean, he has a 500 million dollar yacht or something.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. What he doesn't have is a sports section or a metric or what have you. Yeah, it's really, it's really upsetting and you know, it's, I mean, you could go into all the nostalgia and all the great appreciation for the Washington Post and its history and so forth, but, you know, mostly what it is is just really, really sad.

[Al Franken]

Let's go to the Epstein files. Back in, In November, the Epstein Files Transparency act gave Bondi 30 days to release the files. It's, it's been nearly three months and now there, there are over 3 million pages of emails and other documents that have been released to the public. So I don't know, do you cut them slack for that? I mean, it's sounds like a lot.

[Mark Leibovich]

But no, I don't cut them any slack. I mean, look, I mean, you know, in a vacuum, I mean, if they were trying to operate on good faith on any number of other issues, you'd say, okay, well look, this is, this is a massive volume of files. If we need to give them a grace period of a week or whatever, I mean, that's fine. But no, I mean, you have no reason to think anything not nefarious is going on here.

[Al Franken]

So you think what I think that they're.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, I would say so Tell me what you think and I'll, and I'll agree or disagree, but I think I'm going to agree.

[Al Franken]

Well, one of the things I think is that they, they redacted all the names of the men, at least for the public, but they don't seem to be in any hurry to indict anybody.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, I don't see any. I mean, was it, I guess who was it?

[Al Franken]

And she, and she, you know, was kind of asked about that, but she didn't answer anything.

[Mark Leibovich]

No, I mean, like no one's been indicted. No one has been indicted for any of this stuff. I mean, Jerry Nadler was on the committee. Congressman made that point. She just attacked him.

[Al Franken]

She, she attacked pretty much everyone.

[Mark Leibovich]

Oh, everyone.

[Al Franken]

Every, every Democrat.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. I mean, I didn't watch, but I've seen enough highlights to know that, like, look, I mean, classic audience of one thing. She's got her echo chamber and audience.

[Al Franken]

Of one being obviously President Trump. Yeah, yeah. And so I watched some of it in the afternoon.

[Mark Leibovich]

What'd you think?

[Al Franken]

It was shocking. I mean, it was Shocking. I've never seen anything like this.

[Mark Leibovich]

Are you still shocked, though? I mean, is it. I mean, is it next level of shock?

[Al Franken]

Well, what. The thing I was most shocked at was there were survivors there. Right.

[Mark Leibovich]

And I know, right?

[Al Franken]

Like, I don't know, it seemed like 12, you know, something like that.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

And the most shocking thing to me, they were asked to stand up and they were behind her, you know, because she was facing the committee and she didn't turn around to acknowledge them. I can't believe that she didn't do that. I mean, why wouldn't a human being, especially in her position, just say, you know, I mean, maybe she just. I haven't prepared anything to say to them, and I don't know what to say. So maybe I should. I think, you know, like, thank you. She could have said, thank you for coming today. I apologize if you didn't redact your phone number or something like that.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, no, she didn't do any of that. No, I mean, I think she probably. If. I mean, if I had to guess her thought process was probably thinking, well, if I turn around and do any kind of acknowledgment here, it will look weak and the President will be angry with me. You know, I mean, they're basically following the script of complete callousness. You know, anyone perceived as being hostile to the administration or to whatever, I mean, is not worthy of any basic humanity, even when you've been traumatized to the degree that these survivors were.

[Al Franken]

And that's a chilling analysis of that, I must say.

[Mark Leibovich]

I think it's. Yeah, I think it's probably true. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. Pam Bondi.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, I just. I just got one clip. I just. I didn't want. There's a million clips, but I. One my favorite, I think. I think the context of this. She was interrupting somebody, and Raskin steps in. Peter, you have that. You're the Attorney General of the United States. We have rules here.

[Mark Leibovich]

You're the Attorney General of the United States.

[Al Franken]

You just. With Donald Trump. Trump derangement Syndrome, you can let her.

[Mark Leibovich]

Filibuster all day long, but not on our watch, not on our time, no way. And I told you about that Attorney General before you started. You don't tell me. Oh, I did tell you, because we saw what you did in the Senate. Lawyer.

[Al Franken]

Not even a lawyer. So she says, he's washed up. You're not even a lawyer now. This is Jamie Raskin, who taught law at Harvard Law for 20 years. You know, graduated in law in Harvard and he took the bar and he passed it. He passed the bar.

[Mark Leibovich]

I call him a lawyer. I'm no lawyer, but I'd call him. I'm just a country lawyer, but I'd call him a lawyer. Yeah, I watched that. I mean, actually, I was. That was one of the clips I saw. I don't feel it made me smarter or happier Again. The only way that people like this can shock me at this point is just to turn the volume up. And, yeah, this was a, I guess, higher volume that we're used to, but I don't know. I mean, it is not fun to watch. I mean, I can't imagine that's persuading any voters, if that's even what this is about. I tend not to think so. But.

[Al Franken]

It was about pleasing the boss.

[Mark Leibovich]

Sure. Yep. Absolutely.

[Al Franken]

And now Democrats were. A number of them were basically accusing her of withholding stuff. And you sound like you're in that camp.

[Mark Leibovich]

Sounds like it. I mean, I certainly wouldn't put it past her. And I think, you know, I don't for a second think that full transparency has been realized here in any way, shape or form.

[Al Franken]

Is there going to be any pressure from, you know, for any of these men to be indicted or is that. Is it possible? Like.

[Mark Leibovich]

What. To me, I mean, what. What I think the potential game changer would be is, is if Republicans stood up in a way that, like they did a few months ago. And because, you know, this was a fairly bipartisan issue, especially it was unanimous.

[Al Franken]

In the Senate and one vote.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it had a lot of support among, you know, and sort of elements of the MAGA base. You know, Marjorie Taylor Greene, you know, when she was in Congress, I mean, you know, it definitely has been a fracture point for a lot of Republicans. But it does seem like after the initial vote and after, you know, the beginnings of the releases that we've had, a lot of people have just opted out. It's like we're onto the next thing. I, you know, I do think that maybe this is what the administration was counting on. It's just a whole lot of outrage at once, and it's hard for people to process this. Right. Especially when you're trying to figure out cryptocurrency, corruption. But it's all very. I mean, you do sort of wonder, like, was the momentum of, say, six weeks ago, was that a. Was that the summit? And it's been kind of like a. Kind of a sudden decline since then in interest. But I mean, I don't know. I do think that there have been fewer Republicans who managed to keep up the outrage that might have existed a few months ago.

[Al Franken]

Hmm. I thought this hearing, my rekindle it maybe.

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean, I can't imagine. I mean, look, I don't think an average person would be happy with that or satisfied with those kinds of things.

[Al Franken]

Well, this is actually who counts.

[Mark Leibovich]

I think.

[Al Franken]

I think average people.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, I would think. I mean, I think the answer's been.

[Al Franken]

I think that's what's been driving it. And we're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back with Mark Leibovich. You know that friend who still insists on doing everything the hard way? The one paying for subscriptions? They forgot about refusing to upgrade their phone because it still works. Well, if you're still overpaying for wireless in 2026, that friend might be you. Let me tell you about Mint Mobile. With Mint Mobile, you're getting the exact same premium wireless coverage and speed that you expect with unlimited talk, text and data, but without that inflated price tag. The big carriers love charging you. It's literally the same service for a fraction of the cost. And right now, for a limited time, you can get 50% off 3, 6 or 12 month plans of unlimited premium wireless. You can bring your own phone and number, activate with ESIM in just minutes and start saving immediately. No long term contracts, no hassle. Plus you have a seven day money back guarantee, so there's no reason not to try it. Ready to stop paying more than you have to? New customers can make the switch today and for a limited time, get unlimited premium wireless for just $15 a month. Switch [e-mail] Franken that's mintmobile.com Franken upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for a 12 month plan required. That's the equivalent of $15 a month. Taxes and fees are extra. Initial plan term only. Speeds may slow above 50 gigabytes when the network is busy. Capable device required. Availability, speed and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com for details on the Al Franken podcast.

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[Al Franken]

And we are back with Mark Leipovich. Now, you wrote this piece, and you talk about Ken Martin, who's now the chairman of the Democratic National Party. He was chair of the DFL Party, the Democratic Farmer Labor Party in Minnesota, and was there when. When. When I ran and successfully. And the first sentence, I think, in your article is about what'd you say? He has one of those resting dread faces. And it's actually kind of fair. I mean, I have to say he does have that. And I think at the time that you probably first talked to him, he was going through shit. Right.

[Mark Leibovich]

He's always going through shit. Right. I mean, being a party chairman does not seem all that fun to me.

[Al Franken]

Well, especially in the Democratic Party.

[Mark Leibovich]

Especially the Democratic Party. In this day and age, you know, coming off of 2024, when the party is, you know, very dispirited. I mean, you know, Donald Trump was just reelected despite, you know, go down the list, lose the House, he lose the Senate.

[Al Franken]

He was elected despite being convicted.

[Mark Leibovich]

Many counts. Yeah, it's. Yeah, he was elected despite. Yeah, go down the list.

[Al Franken]

And sexual assault. I mean, he was actually in a civil. It was a civil thing, but he was convicted by a jury of the.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Ruled by a jury that he sexually assaulted, I mean, basically raped Eugene Carroll.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. I mean, the majority of Americans were fine with all that, and they elected him again. And so then you have Ken Martin and you have the Democratic Party, and, you know, the Democrats have not, I would say, until maybe recently, waged a particularly effective fight against what Trump has done and the abuses. And I think a lot of Democrats are extremely upset at the performance of the leaders.

[Al Franken]

The polling in that that you cite is like 78% of Americans satisfied with.

[Mark Leibovich]

Chuck Schumer, with Hakeem Jeffries, certainly with Biden.

[Al Franken]

Oh, you asked Martin if Biden was. Should have not run or should have dropped out. Like when he said he would, when he ran in 20, he said that he would be a transitional president.

[Mark Leibovich]

Right, exactly.

[Al Franken]

And you asked Martin if he thinks that he stayed in that too long, and he wouldn't say one way or the other.

[Mark Leibovich]

Martin's big thing is he swears all the time, very ostentatiously, publicly these days. Like a lot of Democrats. Democrats are big into swearing.

[Al Franken]

You point that out. Yeah.

[Mark Leibovich]

And Martin was like, you know, we just gotta, like, take off the gloves and just go completely nuts and just call out everything and not be afraid to throw a punch and land and be honest and just let the cards fall where they may and so forth. And I sort of at this point just wanted to sort of test the proposition. I said, all right, so should Joe Biden have run in 2024 or should he? Did he stick around too late? Was he too old? And he immediately went into sort of obfuscation mode when he said, well, I don't want to look into the past time machine. I can't change anything. Well, I don't have a time machine, but I want to know if you think he was too old. And he goes, I'm not going to answer that. I'm like, well, so much for like, you know, letting him rip Chairman. He goes like, I, I'm fine. I said, I just don't care who I offend these days. And I said, well, you don't want to offend President Biden. You know, I don't care if I offend him or not. I mean, it was one of those sort of circular conversations where again, if you're a party chair, I mean, it's not fun to have a guy like me asking questions like this, but it's also not fun to have to, you know, talk like this because you obviously have to keep, you know, pretty large and very diverse and pretty fractured constituency within the Democratic Party happy. And.

[Al Franken]

No kidding. No kidding.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

As you know now. So there were a lot of autopsies that came out after the 2024, and basically they were. Democrats are weak and out of touch.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Lost working class, moved to left on crime. The working class and the data you show on where Democrats are. Here's something you have in the piece. You say that the poor feel Republicans best represent their interests and Democrats, the rich elites. Romney in, I guess 2012. Right. Won people making over $100,000 by 10 points.

[Mark Leibovich]

Correct.

[Al Franken]

Kamala in 2024 won people making over $100,000 By 4.

[Mark Leibovich]

Right.

[Al Franken]

That's amazing.

[Mark Leibovich]

It's amazing. And the other side of this is even more amazing, which is that Obama won working class voters by a huge 22. 22 points.

[Al Franken]

22.

[Mark Leibovich]

I think against Kamala. Trump carried it by a couple. I mean, Trump won. I mean, Trump.

[Al Franken]

Trump carried people making less than 50,000 by, I think, by two points.

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean, which is also amazing of the two parties identities. And it's a big problem. I mean, it's a massively damning statement about where the party has gone and how they've lost working class voters and how people perceive Democrats to be. You know, there's a whole lot of hand wringing and a Whole lot of white papers and after action reports, whatever you want to call it. I'm at my desk at the Atlantic is just like sky high with these things. I don't know what I'm going to do with them. Now that the pieces run, I guess I'll just have to like plaster my bathroom with it or something like that.

[Al Franken]

Now, you go around the country, right?

[Mark Leibovich]

I do.

[Al Franken]

How long a period did you do this?

[Mark Leibovich]

I started in about maybe late August of when? Last year. So probably a period of maybe four or five months. Then I started to write and. Yeah, no, I went to. I mean, there are a lot of really interesting races, obviously. You got the Texas Senate race, you got the Maine Senate race and the Michigan Senate race. Spent a lot of time with Martin. Went to, you know, come to those Bernie Oligarch rallies and, you know, spent some time with like, AOC and. But also just talk to, you know, Newsom and. And some of the people who want, like Melissa Slotkin, who. Senator from Michigan. Sure. You know, just a lot, a lot of elected Democrats and so forth. And, you know, look, I. I wanted to sort of get a sense of why the party was still in the wilderness and, and where this was all leading. And the product of this is this endless but extremely compelling piece that you have. Have you read it? You read the whole thing?

[Al Franken]

I did, yeah. Yeah.

[Mark Leibovich]

Endless, right? No, but it's good.

[Al Franken]

No, no, it's. It's not that long. It's 20, 25 pages. No, it's not that long, but there. And a lot of interesting races. You're talking about Texas as Jasmine Crockett, who is kind of an emerging star. And then she's running against this guy, James Talarico. Talarico, who's kind of religious, known and.

[Mark Leibovich]

Has a big following.

[Al Franken]

And as a more moderate.

[Mark Leibovich]

He's perceived as more moderate. Talks about Jesus everywhere. I mean, he's a seminarian and he's got all these great speaker. He's a little bit very well spoken. I mean, he's had a lot of, like, speeches about scripture, about how Republicans are so hypocritical in not caring about the poor and judging and so forth.

[Al Franken]

Oh, that old Jesus, like the poor kind of thing.

[Mark Leibovich]

That whole thing. Yeah, yeah, he's big into that. Yeah, yeah. But no, I mean, he's definitely developed a following. He's raised a ton of money. I mean, you know, like a lot of sort of national sensations, viral sensations. He's raised a lot of money around the country, but, you know, seems to be gaining some Momentum. Yeah. Crockett's more of a rock star. I mean, she's been around longer. She's better known nationally and has sort of gone viral for her own reasons, you know, around stuff in the House. So interesting race. I mean a lot of people, you know, and if Republicans nominate Ken Paxton, who's the very, very far right, very controversial.

[Al Franken]

This is corn and seed. And who is the ag. What is he?

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. So Cornyn, you know, longtime senator from Texas, viewed very much with, you know, he's an establishment figure of the highest order in Texas. Trump, MAGA world didn't. Has never really been that warm to the guy. I mean, the question is, who's Trump going to endorse? I mean, will he endorse someone who I think, you know, Paxton, who he probably likes more, but who could be toxic in a general election or certainly more vulnerable in a general election? Or whether Trump would go with what I think is probably the safer choice for Republicans if they want to keep the seat, which is Senator Cornyn.

[Al Franken]

And you talk about the main race. Graham Platner.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, that's interesting. So Platner is this political neophyte, 41 year old oyster farmer, went up there, went out on his oyster boat. This was not recent.

[Al Franken]

He's in Iraq, Afghanistan.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, he's basically spent his whole half, half his life, I mean most of his adult life in Iraq and Afghanistan. Came home, you know, started this oyster business or sort of, you know, got, got into the oyster farming business. I was not familiar with it, but I went out on his boat again. Not, not in the winter months because I think the, whatever, whatever the COVID was is probably frozen now. But it was September. Yeah, I mean he's a big Bernie guy, getting huge crowds, also drawing a lot of money. Lightning in a bottle is running against in the main primary, in the Democratic primary against Janet mills, who's the 79 or 79 now. Yeah, popular, but old. You can be old and popular. Not mutually exclusive. Anyway, the governor of Maine.

[Al Franken]

And they're running against, running for Collins seat.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yes. Who's been there forever, always seems to be vulnerable. I mean, Maine's a pretty blue state and yet Collins has managed to get reelected a number of times.

[Al Franken]

And it sounds like he's going to get the nomination to me.

[Mark Leibovich]

Maybe. I mean, he's been very durable. I mean, I think after his initial sort of shot out of the gate, the momentum, I mean, he had some real contours. He's been a bunch of old Reddit.

[Al Franken]

He has some Reddit posts that Reddit.

[Mark Leibovich]

Posts, oral voters can be racist and stupid and just a lot of problematic stuff out there. And then he has a tattoo, apparently, that people have pointed out, you know, has a lot of Nazi connotations. He claimed that he didn't know about them. He since covered over or distorted the maybe Nazi or Nazi adjacent image. But anyway, yeah, he's had some real controversy, but his support's been pretty durable. And, you know, the polls are a little unreliable. But, I mean, he could. I think he could win. There's no question against Mills. Not sure he could win against Collins, but.

[Al Franken]

Well, she'll use a lot of that stuff against him, I'm sure.

[Mark Leibovich]

No question. No question.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. So you talked to Newsom and Pritzker, who seem to both be running for president?

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, I think so. And Trump has also tried. Has said that both should be arrested. So that would create a very small group of people who both went to jail, but also shared a debate stage. So they could share a debate stage or a jail cell.

[Al Franken]

But he says so many people should go to prison, including six Democrats.

[Mark Leibovich]

That's highly irregular in a normal president. Yes. Now it's just sort of like, well, I guess it's what, Wednesday or what, whatever, Thursday? I mean, it's just. It's. It's crazy.

[Al Franken]

Basically, everyone now is sort of saying Democrats will take the House, but it's. It's still a longer way away than I like to.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, I, I think I. I am always wary because I've seen this a lot, and I assume you've seen this a lot. Democrats are pretty giddy right now, which is pretty bizarre because, I mean, if you look at the polls, I mean, they seem to be breaking pretty decisively in the direction of Democrats, mostly based on complete revulsion of what Trump is doing and so forth. You know, not an unfamiliar story. I mean, the party in control, overreaching, and, you know, you go with the alternative. But I do think Democrats do, and I think this is kind of the takeaway of the piece. I mean, they're in a better place than they were four or five months ago just because time has passed, Republicans have screwed up, and more and more people seem to be hating Republicans more than they hate Democrats at this point. But, but again, I think that parties obviously are not monoliths, and you are defined by who the candidates are. And, and, you know, as you remember, Al, I mean, Democrats were completely distraught after John Kerry lost in 2004. Like, what are we ever going to do? Are we going to be a permanent minority party? Like Carl Rove predicted. And then all of a sudden, you know, this guy comes along named Barack Obama, and the Democratic future was set for the next decade or so. The problem is they didn't really bother with the future after that. And Republicans were completely back on their heels in 2012. They commissioned this autopsy, the RNC commissioned this autopsy, and like, lo and behold, they did everything the autopsy he said they shouldn't do, and nominated this guy, Donald Trump, who would go ahead, go on, and sort of define the party for the next decade. So, to some degree, these wilderness periods are hard to talk about and hard to quantify.

[Al Franken]

In the last year or so, in terms of state legislative seats, I think Democrats have won 26 to 0.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Haven't lost and contested.

[Mark Leibovich]

Correct.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. And the last one was in Louisiana, and she won by huge. A massive margin over in a. In a district that Trump won by, like, in the teens. Right.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. And there was one in Oklahoma a few days ago. Massive. I mean, you know, again, I think some of these districts are a little weird because you just don't know who's running. And I mean.

[Al Franken]

Right. The candidates matter.

[Mark Leibovich]

But no, I mean, they've overperformed consistently. Certainly they overperformed the off year, Alexa. Last year. Yeah. All those indicators are even better than what the polls show. I mean, there's a level of energy that Democrats have. But look, there's a lot of reason to be nervous, too, because one, I mean, forget like, the whole election integrity thing and like, what Republicans might.

[Al Franken]

Oh, well, that's. That's the last thing I want to discuss. Is he going to. I mean, he. He says that there are 15 states that the federal government needs to run the election.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Now, of course, that's ridiculous. That won't happen. It can't happen.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, but he might try. I mean. Yeah, I mean, he said recently he wants to nationalize elections, which, you know, doesn't make a lot of sense, but it's also. I mean, it's a real. I mean, it's authoritarian, you know, really at, you know, the definition of authoritarian in some ways. I mean, it's very much against every principle of, like, American elections.

[Al Franken]

Well, you know, there's Article 2, the Constitution, which gives the states the authority to run elections.

[Mark Leibovich]

I wouldn't put it past him to try any number of these things. I think Democrats need to be as vigilant as they possibly can be. Although I don't know how you do this.

[Al Franken]

Well, we go to the Supreme Court. Thank you for doing this, Al.

[Mark Leibovich]

Always a pleasure. Great to be with you. And yeah, God has help us all. You know what? Good to see you smiling. Because at least you're smiling. I don't know if you, if you don't have good dreams, you've got nightmares.

[Al Franken]

Well, I I hope you enjoyed listening. That beautiful music is by Leo Kotke, the great Leo Kotke. I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next week.

[Mark Leibovich]

Foreign.

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