Molly Jong-Fast on her Bestselling Memoir!

Summary

Episode Summary: Molly Jong-Fast on Her Bestselling Memoir!

Podcast Title: The Al Franken Podcast
Episode: Molly Jong-Fast on Her Bestselling Memoir!
Release Date: June 22, 2025

In this compelling episode of The Al Franken Podcast, host Al Franken sits down with New York Times bestselling author Molly Jong-Fast to discuss her deeply personal memoir, How to Lose Your Mother. The conversation delves into Molly's tumultuous relationship with her mother, the challenges she faced in 2023, and the intricate process of writing a memoir amidst personal upheaval.

Introduction to Molly Jong-Fast and Her Memoir

The episode begins with Molly introducing her memoir, How to Lose Your Mother, highlighting its forthcoming status as a New York Times bestseller. She provides context about her family's literary legacy, mentioning her mother, Erika Jong, renowned for her 1973 feminist novel Fear of Flying, which sold over 20 million copies.

[01:04] Molly Jong-Fast: "We got a great one today... Molly Jong Fast is with me and it is a great one, you know, for a change."

Navigating a Year of Personal Tragedy

Molly opens up about the harrowing events of 2023, a year marked by multiple personal losses and health battles. Her mother and stepfather were diagnosed with dementia, her husband faced a pancreatic cancer diagnosis, and she mourned the loss of Melissa Hortman and Mark Hortman in Minnesota.

[04:42] Molly Jong-Fast: "2023 was an epically horrible year for you... You couldn't have known how horrible the year was going to be."

Molly reflects on the emotional toll these events took on her and how they influenced her decision to pen her memoir.

The Complex Relationship with a Famous Mother

A significant portion of the discussion centers around Molly's strained relationship with her mother. Erika Jong's fame appears to have cast a long shadow over their interactions, contributing to feelings of neglect and emotional distance.

[10:42] Molly Jong-Fast: "Mom clearly understood that fame was, even for most famous people, a temporary state."

Molly explores how her mother's addiction to fame affected her upbringing and personal development, highlighting generational patterns of seeking validation through public recognition.

Writing as a Coping Mechanism

Amidst the chaos, Molly found solace in writing. She discusses the therapeutic aspects of authoring her memoir, allowing her to process grief, confront familial tensions, and reclaim her narrative.

[06:23] Molly Jong-Fast: "As it's happening, you decide to write a book... I started writing it and worse and worse things started happening to me."

Molly shares insights into the challenges of balancing a demanding career, taking care of her children, and managing personal health crises while working on her book.

Family Legacy and Personal Struggles

The conversation delves deeper into the legacy of fame within Molly's family, touching upon her grandfather Howard Fast's literary contributions and the impact of his accolades on family dynamics.

[11:00] Erika Jong: "So the point of this story is... my grandfather also had a problem with this."

Molly also candidly discusses her own struggles with alcoholism, her journey to sobriety, and how these personal battles intertwined with her family's expectations and public personas.

[23:46] Molly Jong-Fast: "You went to Hazelden when you were 19? Isn't that amazing? That's amazing."

Confronting Betrayal and Seeking Closure

Molly addresses the emotional betrayal she felt when her mother fictionalized aspects of her life in the memoir. This act deepened the emotional rift between them, leading Molly to question the authenticity of their relationship.

[30:05] Molly Jong-Fast: "So your mother kind of betrayed you when she wrote that about bleeding to death. Almost bleeding to death, yes. So she kind of betrayed you there, would you say?"

Despite these tensions, Molly expresses a sense of relief and diminished anger after completing her memoir, indicating a path toward healing.

[16:47] Molly Jong-Fast: "I feel much better about her now that I wrote this book."

Reflections on Caretaking and Personal Identity

Molly shares her experiences as a caregiver, highlighting the challenges of managing ADHD while fulfilling familial obligations. She reflects on how these responsibilities have shaped her identity and influenced her professional endeavors, including her work in the gig economy and podcasting.

[35:46] Molly Jong-Fast: "Let's talk about some of the stuff that's happening right now. What interests you in particular?"

Concluding Thoughts and Future Endeavors

As the episode wraps up, Molly discusses her ongoing commitment to her career and personal growth. She expresses hope for her memoir's success and the potential for future healing through continued honesty and self-reflection.

[51:34] Molly Jong-Fast: "I hope you enjoyed listening. That beautiful music is by Leo Kotke. The great Leo Kotke. I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next week."

Notable Quotes

• Molly Jong-Fast [00:01]: "Every day he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge. And there's this huge responsibility in making sure that when he's no longer under my wing that he's a good person."

• Erika Jong [10:56]: "So my father found it in his basement in Palm Springs. He picked it up. He was like, oh, shit. And then he dropped it."

• Molly Jong-Fast [23:05]: "I apologize in advance. And I have to say, another incredibly fascinating detail. Maybe this is not fascinating. I think it is."

Conclusion

This episode offers a raw and honest exploration of Molly Jong-Fast's personal struggles, familial relationships, and the transformative power of writing. Listeners gain profound insights into the complexities of balancing fame, family expectations, and personal well-being. Molly's candid narratives and reflections provide a relatable and inspiring account of overcoming adversity through resilience and self-expression.

Transcript

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[Molly Jong Fast]

The thing that drives me every day as a dad is Dariona. We call him Dae Date for short. Every day he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge. And there's this huge responsibility in making sure that when he's no longer under my wing that he's a good person. I want him to be able to sit back one day and go, we worked together. We did a good job.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Molly Jong Fast]

Hey, everybody. We got a great one today, you know, for a change. And this time, this time, I finally mean it. Finally, Molly Jong Fast joins me, and we're going to talk about her great new book, how to Lose youe Mother, which will be premiering as a New York Times bestseller. You all know Molly, but you might not know that her mother is writer Erika Jeong, who became famous for her 1973 novel, Fear of Flying, a groundbreaking book of feminist literature that sold more than 20 million copies. It's about a woman whose marriage has lost all passion and fantasizes about having passionate sex with a total stranger with no strings attached, what Erika John called a zipless fuck. I'm sorry. If you're listening in the car with your kids, I. I apologize. Before we go to Molly, I just want to say a few words about the harrowing events in Minnesota. The murders of Melissa Hortman and her husband Mark, and the attempted murders of John Hoffman and his wife Yvette, are deeply disturbing and heartbreaking. Melissa was not a close friend of mine, but we campaigned together throughout the state and I got to know her. Melissa was a warm person with a ready laugh, but she was a tough negotiator and a very effective leader who always fought hard for Minnesotans. Melissa, of course, had been the speaker of the Minnesota State House, and she led her caucus brilliantly. Together they passed legislation that made meaningful progress on a host of issues important to the people of the state. In 2023 alone, the legislature passed a guaranteed right to reproductive freedom and a bill that will lead Minnesota to 100% clean energy by 2040. They made college free for low income Minnesotans and guaranteed free breakfast and free lunch for all K12 students. And all were signed into law by Governor Tim Walls. This is a tremendous loss for Minnesota and for Melissa's colleagues, for her and Mark's friends and for their son and daughter. The world lost two wonderful people and a great leader. May their memory be a blessing to all who knew them. There are two GoFundMes, one for the Hoffmans and one for the Hortman family. You can find the links to both in the description of this episode. Okay. We have a great one for you today. Molly Jung Fast is with me and it is a great one, you know, for a change. Well, normally we talk politics and what's happening in the world and we're going to do that maybe at the end. But I love your book how to Lose youe Mother. And congratulations on being the. What were you, number eight in the New York Times?

[Erika Jong]

I think I was number six on the combined list. But then I fell off this week. So I'm trying to emotionally. They had to print more and it was sold out a lot of places. So this is a good thing. But you know, I can seize defeat from the jaws of victory.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Well, we don't. You don't have to mention that it was actually.

[Erika Jong]

Okay.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Fell off the list, do we?

[Erika Jong]

Okay. No. He's a New York Times bestseller.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Yeah. So let's talk about the book and interrupt me during this anytime you like. Okay.

[Erika Jong]

Okay. I love to interrupt. Don't worry.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Good. Good. 2023 was an epically horrible year for you. Your mother, Erika Zhang, who's mother in the book, had become famous from her 1973 novel Fear of Flying, which sold more than 20 million copies. And she was diagnosed with dementia, as was her husband, your stepfather. You had three kids who needed you. You had very busy career. Your husband was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer.

[Erika Jong]

Neuroendocrine cancer on the pancreas. But. Yes.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Oh, what is it called?

[Erika Jong]

It's called neuroendocrine cancer and it came up in the pancreas. But it's. It is, you know, it's not quite the same, but it's still not quite.

[Molly Jong Fast]

The same as pancreatic.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah.

[Molly Jong Fast]

And thank God for that, right?

[Erika Jong]

Yes. Yes.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Okay. And he's okay.

[Erika Jong]

Yes.

[Molly Jong Fast]

But it was pretty Tense there.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah.

[Molly Jong Fast]

And your stepfather and your father in law died.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah, yeah.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Your stepfather had been diagnosed with dementia as well.

[Erika Jong]

Yes.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Okay.

[Erika Jong]

Yes, he had Parkinsonian's dementia.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Ah, I see. That's right. So this was exhausting for you. And so as it's happening, you decide to write a book.

[Erika Jong]

Yes.

[Molly Jong Fast]

You couldn't have known how horrible the year was going to be. When did you start writing the book?

[Erika Jong]

So let me go back in time a little bit. So I had a platform and so I was. People came to me and said, you should write a book. But because I come from books, I think of books as like, not like a lot of people who write political stuff write books that are sort of disposable, you know, books that could have been a magazine article or books that like are no longer in date a couple years later and. Or a couple weeks later, depending. And so I wanted to write a book that was like a real book about something. And I. When my mom.

[Molly Jong Fast]

That's a good idea.

[Erika Jong]

And when my mom started getting dementia, I thought, this is so weird because she's disappearing and I never got the chance to have the relationship with her I wanted. And then as that was happening, the whole thing, like as I was selling the book, my husband was in an emergency room where they found the pancreas thing. And so even though I only I had a chapter of the book, I started writing it and worse and worse things started happening to me. But I did towards the end of the year think to myself, maybe I'm the thing. Because everything terrible kept happening to people around me and I was like, maybe it's me.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Well, it wasn't you.

[Erika Jong]

No. It's a completely crazy thing to think. But I did have a moment where I thought, could it be me? Could I be the reason this keeps happening? But it's not.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Let's talk about the Fear of Flying. It was considered a groundbreaking work of second wave feminist literature. What does that mean, second wave feminist literature?

[Erika Jong]

So actually I was interviewed by this literary agent called Jennifer Rudolph Walsh and she had quite a good explainer for it, which I hadn't heard, which was. So this was a book that sold 27 million copies. And if you think about books today, like Michelle Obama's book sold 4 million copies. So it was a huge number of copies. And part of that was because at the time they didn't have phones, they didn't have anything to do. You know, people had to read a book. They had television, but they didn't have VHS. But also because, you know, 1964, the pill came. You know, that was like a seminal moment. 1973, Roe v. Wade is decided. So it was a moment in American life when women were, for the first time, really getting to be whole people. The other thing I would say, which I think is really important is like, my mom. And this was part of why she was so conflicted. I think she was born in 1942. So 1942, women couldn't have checking accounts. We forget how women. Yeah, not until, like, you know, the 60s could women have checking accounts without their husbands. I mean, it was such a completely. I mean, this is like, you know, less than 100 years ago, women were not considered to be full people. So I do think that what we see is, like, this is so new.

[Molly Jong Fast]

But she's born in 42. So she's 52. In 1952, she's 10.

[Erika Jong]

Right. But I'm just saying. No, but, you know, she grew up in a world that didn't exist, you know, pretty quickly. And so I do think it was quite hard for her, if that makes sense.

[Molly Jong Fast]

So a recurring theme of the book is your mother's addiction to fame. What do you mean by that?

[Erika Jong]

So I found, and I saw this. It's not unique to her because my grandfather also had a problem with this.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Howard Fast.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah, Howard Fast, who wrote Spartacus.

[Molly Jong Fast]

He's John Fast. Yeah. He wrote Spartacus.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah. And April Morning and won the Stalin.

[Molly Jong Fast]

He wrote, like, 80 books or something like that, right?

[Erika Jong]

Yeah, 80 books. And he won the Stalin Peace Prize the last year that Stalin gave it out. So Stalin was like, I'm awarding you a prize. Think about that for a minute.

[Molly Jong Fast]

And he had it displayed.

[Erika Jong]

So it was, for a while, on a mantle with sort of caveats. He did eventually disavow Stalin, but he was very late to it. So I read. You know, it's funny, I read this.

[Molly Jong Fast]

What year is that? What year does he win the Stalin Beast Prize?

[Erika Jong]

I think I should look it up. Let me see.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Sometime in the 40s.

[Erika Jong]

Let me see. What year?

[Molly Jong Fast]

Well, we don't have to know.

[Erika Jong]

No, no, we have to know. 1953.

[Molly Jong Fast]

1953. Okay. That is late.

[Erika Jong]

Yes. Not great. Not great. It's in the Cold War Radio Museum. So anyway, so the point of this story is. So my father found it in his basement in Palm Springs. He picked it up. He was like, oh, shit. And then he dropped it. And we can't find it now. But I do remember seeing it as a young. And it was like a coin. But now that I've Seen so many people have won now a little less impressed with it.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Okay. Well, anyway, the recurring theme of the book is fame.

[Erika Jong]

Oh, you want me to answer the actual question?

[Molly Jong Fast]

You can if you like, but is her addiction the fame?

[Erika Jong]

Yes.

[Molly Jong Fast]

What do you mean by that?

[Erika Jong]

So both my mother and my grandfather were famous, and then they were less famous, and then they weren't famous, and then they were famous. I think it was very hard for my mother to like. I believe that fame is the closest thing we have to magic in modern life. You know, it changes the way you treat people. It changes the way people treat you. You can get restaurant reservations. You can. You know, it makes. It's magic, right? A little bit.

[Molly Jong Fast]

A little bit.

[Erika Jong]

A little bit. It also makes you often a terrible, terrible person, though not always, but sometimes.

[Molly Jong Fast]

But in a way, your mother.

[Erika Jong]

Well, she wasn't terrible exactly. I think what happened to my mom was. She was an alcoholic. She writes this book. She becomes as famous as a famous comedian. Right? Like, she's on television, she's on night shows. She's pretty famous. And then she can't ever put the genie back in the bottle, right? Like, she can't ever be like, well, I got famous and now I have this nice house and I can afford my life, so let's just enjoy it. Instead, she becomes sort of obsessed with getting back there, and she can't ever get back there. And so it's an object of misery. And my grandfather was somewhat the same, though he had other books that sold well.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Let's talk about how your mother's addiction to fame affected you. I'm going to read a few of your quotes from the book. Is that okay?

[Erika Jong]

Yeah.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Mom clearly understood that fame was, even for most famous people, a temporary state. She was indeed always concerned that someone might try and take her career away. The problem was she was pretty sure it was me who might take her career away.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah. So do you want an explanation of that?

[Molly Jong Fast]

Sure.

[Erika Jong]

My grandmother was a painter. And she was the best friend of a woman called Lee Krasner, who was the wife of a very famous painter. Right. Called Jackson Pollock. So Jackson Pollock and Lee Krasner were married. Lee Krasner painted not as famous, but got actually a little bit famous because she was married to Jackson Pollock and she painted pretty well. My grandmother was always shocked that she wasn't Lee Krasner. And she blamed her daughters because that they had prevented her from becoming a famous painter. This was my whole theory of the case. And so my mother was always a little bit scared that I was gonna take away her fame. And I think that was because my grandmother transmitted that to her.

[Molly Jong Fast]

So which grandmother was she?

[Erika Jong]

She's your mother's mother.

[Molly Jong Fast]

I see, I see. Okay, so that's what I'm saying.

[Erika Jong]

She was a failure and wanted to be a success, and she felt that parenting had made her a failure.

[Molly Jong Fast]

So she was a terrible mom, your mom, basically, as a.

[Erika Jong]

Not my mom, but my grandmother was. I mean, my mom was confident.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Your mom was pretty terrible. She couldn't spend an hour a day with you. She had a tough time doing that.

[Erika Jong]

But my grandmother was really a bad mother. I think my grandmother was a much worse mother than my mother was.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Here, I'll quote you again. My mother had been a negligent parent and it was impossible for her to be otherwise. She was a damaged person. She wasn't a bad person. She tried her best. And it was true that sometimes her best is actually not good at all. Sometimes your best is terrible.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah, she's not a great mother, but.

[Molly Jong Fast]

You know, I'm just quoting you.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah, yeah. No, no, not so much.

[Molly Jong Fast]

So you go up and down with her. I mean, a little at times. She was not all that bad.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah, you know, she's good, she's bad. She's. You know, I don't know. I feel very. I feel much better about her now that I wrote this book. Honestly, I feel like, much less mad at her. So go figure.

[Molly Jong Fast]

But the mad at her is in the book.

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[Molly Jong Fast]

Sometimes you traveled with her. Yeah, you're right. You started going to Venice as a child because your mother had a lover there.

[Erika Jong]

Yes. The. What was his name?

[Molly Jong Fast]

Italian guy who was married to a.

[Erika Jong]

To a countess.

[Molly Jong Fast]

To a countess. A German countess.

[Erika Jong]

Yes, he was so. I mean, the people. Oh, God. But I don't know that the wife cared so much that my mom. I think the wife was, like, a little impressed that he was having an affair with Erika Jeong. You know, in Italy, it's a very different kind of thing, you know? You know, it's funny, cause it's like I really had a terrible time with the. We would stay in this, like, palazzo that was really rotting in this weird neighborhood that wasn't near anything. And none of the rooms had air conditioning. And it was like 1000 degrees and everything smelled of sewage. Cause, like, Venice is both very glamorous and also quite disgusting. And they have these black flies in the summer when it gets really, really hot. And still, I'm very grateful that it made me super. It made me kind of who I am, and I am grateful for that. I love those black flies of your.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Nanny, Margaret, you write. Margaret was my mother. Well, not really, but sort of. She was more of a mother than my own mother was. That was for sure.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah, I think that's right. It was funny because one of my cousins, who's, like, now very involved in politics and very lefty, once said all this stuff about how terrible she was, and it netted down to that. She was like. It was like, clearly classism. Like, I was listening to him and I was thinking, like, this isn't really her being terrible. This is you being a classist.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Who is he saying that was terrible?

[Erika Jong]

Margaret.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Really?

[Erika Jong]

Yeah, he was saying, well, she's. She's. You know, the reason that you're fat is because she's fat. And she hasn't taught you that being fat is. It was like this.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Most people who see you on TV say, she's not fat.

[Erika Jong]

No, you're fat as a girl. Yeah. And it was like this insane dialogue. I mean, we never write about class, which is like this last bastion of weird. Just a weird signifier, which is so interesting. But, yeah, I really liked Margaret, and she took really good care of me, and I was really lucky to have her here.

[Molly Jong Fast]

I'm going to quote you again. I never went to a wedding or to a bar mitzvah or to a party or anything with my mother in which she didn't get drunk. Then Grab a microphone and give a toast.

[Erika Jong]

Every fucking time. It was like, what is the opposite of toastmasters? That. Did you even know? I didn't know until I was an adult that they asked people to give toasts. I just assumed if you were a famous alcoholic, you could get up there and give a toast.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Well, I think that most people feel like they can if they're not called on, that they can toast that, especially if they admire the person who's being toast. Tell the one about this guy Ken.

[Erika Jong]

Ken Follett. Yeah, the Ken Follett story.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Yeah.

[Erika Jong]

So what would happen is my mom would get like the alcoholism. She'd sort of control it for a while and then something terrible would happen and everyone would do an intervention and. And then she'd control it for a while and then something terrible would happen and they do an intervention. So this. Right. So we'd be like, you know, every six months and oh, all right. So she has this party at her house and she gets real, real drunk. And I'm like, no, at this point I'm maybe 37. I'm like, no, I'm going in the other room. Like, I've been to this rodeo before. I know how this ends. And so my husband explains it to me because he can't get out. But it is literally her being like, you know, she had this longtime friendship with Ken and Barbara Follett. Barbara was a member of parliament, a liberal member of Parliament. Really wonderful Ken. Incredibly successful and brilliant writer. The things she says, like, I. Everyone is gap jawed, you know, it's like, well, we never fucked. And it's this room filled with middle aged people looking at each other in horror. And it's like the most drunken embarrassing thing ever. And then the next day Ken and Barbara come back and we try to do an intervention on her which lasts for six months.

[Molly Jong Fast]

I think it broke at a Seder. You described in the book how.

[Erika Jong]

A Seder?

[Molly Jong Fast]

A Seder. Well, where she now she's been on the wagon for several months and she insists still on having wine in her glass. And there's thing where you dip your finger in and then taste it and she does that and then she just downs it.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah. You know, so my husband, when we first met, he was like, you know, I don't really think your mom's an alcoholic. She's famous, she's very successful, she's clearly not an alcoholic. And I was like, okay, well I'll see you back here in five years. And so he is sitting next to her and she's dipping her finger in, and then she's licking her finger, and then all of a sudden, she's tilted the glass and is pouring it into her mouth. And my husband comes to me, and he's like, she's drinking again, Ma. I can't believe she's drinking again. And I'm like, that's what they do, man. That's what alcoholics do.

[Molly Jong Fast]

And you're an alcoholic, too.

[Erika Jong]

Yes.

[Molly Jong Fast]

You went to Hazelden when you were 19?

[Erika Jong]

November 2, 1997. And I've been sober ever since.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Isn't that amazing? That's amazing.

[Erika Jong]

You know, it. It's both amazing, and it's not amazing. Right. Like, if you are willing to do what they say the program of Alcoholics Anonymous is not. It's not so hard. Right. It's more of a question of you have to. You have to be willing. You have to have some amount of honesty with yourself and other people. And if you have that, you can do pretty well.

[Molly Jong Fast]

The most harrowing part of the book is when you have your twins, when you deliver your twins. And it was absolutely harrowing.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah.

[Molly Jong Fast]

And you almost died there.

[Erika Jong]

Mm. I think this is the least good part of the book, in a way.

[Molly Jong Fast]

No, it was amazing.

[Erika Jong]

Oh, really?

[Molly Jong Fast]

It was a very scary thing. Obviously, I know your didn't die, but you thought you were. You thought you could be anyway, right? That's what was harrowing, was being you in that moment.

[Erika Jong]

So the scariest part of it is that I had, you know, it was like one of these days where you're going in and they say, you know, this should be no problem. We have this one and that one, and we have students scrubbed in. And then all of a sudden, because you're awake, you can hear what they're saying. So I hear the doctor say, there's so much blood. Somebody has to mop up all this blood. I'm slipping.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Jesus.

[Erika Jong]

And I hear another doctor say, you know, we just have to put her out because this is not going well. And I am like, oh, my God, I'm dying. And I can hear it like, it was so fucked up. And then I ended up getting out of it. I didn't have an infusion. They just, like, let me sort of redo my blood supply myself. I wish to God I had an infusion, because the next two weeks, I was. I'm white. And I was like, I look like I was going to die. And I was so tired. And then I got out of there, and I had so many other problems from the surgery because it was so long, like the scar didn't heal, it opened. I mean, it was just like a disaster. The point of that story is, is a. That pregnancy and childbirth is actually. Can be very dangerous.

[Molly Jong Fast]

And you must have been at a.

[Erika Jong]

Really good hospital, Mount Sinai, with two really good surgeons.

[Molly Jong Fast]

So you can imagine why maternal mortality is high in certain populations, 100%.

[Erika Jong]

And I also, I tell that story because it was like the. One of the worst things that ever happened to me. And then my mom made me a character in the book and had me lying about it, which got me so mad.

[Molly Jong Fast]

No, wait a minute. In other words, the character in it is exaggerating what happened to her.

[Erika Jong]

Yes.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Now, did you confront your mom about that?

[Erika Jong]

No, because she just. It would be. It was totally you. Like, you would say to her, you know, I didn't like when you made me a sociopath in your book. And she would say, kill me, shoot arrows through me. All I do is love you. And you would say, so we're not going to be able to have a conversation about this.

[Molly Jong Fast]

So are you a nepo baby? Is that what they call it?

[Erika Jong]

So when you're 46, it's a new category. It's like a neposaurus, right? You're like, old enough so you can no longer be quantified as a baby. You know, whatever. Sure, I'll take it.

[Molly Jong Fast]

We have a mutual friend who's an epo.

[Erika Jong]

Who?

[Molly Jong Fast]

Marcy Cline.

[Erika Jong]

Oh, I love Marcy Klein.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Yeah, she was the producer on Saturday Night Live and she got kidnapped when she was 10.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah, I actually write about that in the book.

[Molly Jong Fast]

You say that your mom kind of secretly hoped that you might be kidnapped because it would be fodder.

[Erika Jong]

Yes. Well, also remember, anyone who was anyone was kidnapped, right? Like in the 80s, that was like a thing people did. I knew people got kidnapped and it was like, you know, you had a rich parent, you had a famous parent, you got kidnapped. And we don't, as Donald Trump says, we don't see that so much anymore. It's an old fashioned word, kidnapping, like groceries.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Well, let's not give anybody ideas.

[Erika Jong]

Yes, but yes. I think she was a little jealous that I never got kidnapped. But, you know, they just weren't as famous as Calvin Klein.

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[Molly Jong Fast]

So your mother kind of betrayed you when she wrote that about bleeding to death. Almost bleeding to death, yes. So she kind of betrayed you there, would you say?

[Erika Jong]

Yes.

[Molly Jong Fast]

And now were you ever worried about betraying your mom by writing this book?

[Erika Jong]

No. And in fact, had she been normal, she would have been thrilled. She would have been thrilled by this book. Demented. Yeah. She'd be like New York Times bestseller, you know, she would have been thrilled. So, no, you definitely, you were allowed to do whatever the fuck you wanted. That was not the problem. The problem was more just that I always felt kind of. I just always felt like you never knew if something was going in the book or not. Like you couldn't really trust your interactions with the person because you knew they were probably gonna write about you.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Really?

[Erika Jong]

Yeah. And that's not a great feeling. It's sort of funny. I mean, the thing is, like, if you read the Journalist and the Murderer or you read any of these books about journalism, the whole job is to sell people out, right? I mean, that's why you exist in a certain way.

[Molly Jong Fast]

How did other people that you write about in the book feel about the book? How does your husband feel about.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah, everybody's fine. I mean, when he got cancer, I was like. What I tried to do was I tried not to injure normal people. So like, my aunt was like, grandpa Howie fucked me up too. And I said, I know, that's Howard fast. Yeah. But I tried not to, like, go after non main characters, right? I tried not to get involved with other people's stories. And I think that was a good call with my husband. When he got cancer, I was like, I'm sorry, I'm going to have to write about this. I was like, it's just too cinematic. I have to write about it. I apologize.

[Molly Jong Fast]

It is very harrowing. At one point, you say that he had a smell.

[Erika Jong]

Yes. That really annoyed him. That was the one thing that got him so crazy. And I was like, but people who are sick often have smells. And he was like, I smelled because I was in the hospital. I was like, why do you care? It's just a detail. And so we still fight about that.

[Molly Jong Fast]

You still fight about that?

[Erika Jong]

Yeah, well, fight is, I think, a strong word. But he'll still be like, so do I smell? And I'll be like, it's a thing that sick people have.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Some things in the book are a little harsher than others. This is about your mom. Her fans got the same Erica Zhang I did.

[Erika Jong]

Yes.

[Molly Jong Fast]

There was no private individual. There was just Erika Jeong, feminist icon. Except that she was really not that feminist and really not that iconic.

[Erika Jong]

Yes, that is true. I mean, she was a little iconic. She just wasn't that feminist. You know, she would. My favorite thing about her was that she would give you the worst advice. So you would come to her and you would say, you know, what should I do? And she would say, you should get pregnant before you're married, and then the guy will marry you. She had like, the worst. Like, you'd be like, that seems like terrible advice. I had a cousin who was married to someone and wanted to have a menage trois. So they asked my mother. My mother said, absolutely, absolutely, of course. Then six months later, he's with the girl they had the menageri trois with. And I was like, what? Who asks Erika Jeong for relationship advice? I was like, what are we doing here?

[Molly Jong Fast]

You write that when you first introduced your husband to your mom, you told him that she would be wearing a robe and that she didn't tie it.

[Erika Jong]

I said, you will see this woman naked. I apologize in advance. And in fact, he did see her naked. Look, man, I can't be responsible. I warned him. I said, you're in for this. I apologize. And I said, I have to say, another incredibly fascinating detail. Maybe this is not fascinating. I think it is.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Let's take a shot.

[Erika Jong]

My kids were like, you know, you probably were baptized. And I was like, I'm Jewish. My parents are both Jewish. I said, no, I wasn't baptized. What are you crazy? And they said, did you take communion? I said, all the time. And they said, you know, probably your nanny, your baby nurse, who was a Baptist, took you to get baptized. Why wouldn't you?

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[Erika Jong]

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[Erika Jong]

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[Molly Jong Fast]

Okay, so you are a busy person. You were especially busy then taking care of everybody.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Did you feel sometimes that you were in the wrong place?

[Erika Jong]

Always. And also, I'm not like, I'm actually not that good a caretaker because I have really bad adhd. So I'm mostly like. I give you a little time, I sort of figure out. I'm good at figuring out the people who can deal with your situation, but I'm not great at, like, sitting with you at your bedside for six hours. That's like, not me.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Yeah. You couldn't really stand being at the most expensive nursing home in the world.

[Erika Jong]

I liked Sloan Kettering because that's the hospital. Yeah. That's the cancer hospital. Because I felt like it was very clean. Right. And I don't like it. I get very freaked out, you know? Like, I've had so much surgery at Mount Sinai, and it's just the dirtiest. Like, it's amazing that everyone doesn't die. I mean, it's so dirty. Like, when you're in there, you're like, this is so dirty. But it's a good hospital with great doctors. But I really, really, really. I have trouble sort of sitting still. I think that's a real problem for me. And so I did. That's why I do so much stuff.

[Molly Jong Fast]

So between taking care of kids and all of this stuff, you were very busy, and you're still busy now with your career.

[Erika Jong]

I'm trying. I'm just. Every day. I'm just doing my gigs in the gig economy.

[Molly Jong Fast]

So you write for Vanity Fair.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah.

[Molly Jong Fast]

And you have the Podcasts, which you do how many?

[Erika Jong]

Four times a week.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Four times a week?

[Erika Jong]

400 times. So I do a podcast Mondays, Wednesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays. And I do it because there are very few podcasts that drop on Monday or Saturday because most people don't want to work on the weekends. So I mean, that's really what it is. So we do really well with our Saturday and Monday podcast because there's just not a lot of competition.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Ours drops on Sunday. This will drop on Sunday.

[Erika Jong]

Sunday, right. Sunday's a good one too. I like doing it. I actually find it pretty fun. And I really hate writing. Like I hate writing the way writers hate writing, so. And also writing can sometimes take me like five hours of writing can take me two days. Do you know what I mean? Because like you can just not write and then you can be like, oh my God, I've sat at my desk for three hours and I've not written. So podcasts are fun.

[Molly Jong Fast]

I know that one.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah, podcasts are fun because it's like I like to talk to people. I'm an only child who was very lonely, so when I get to talk to people, it's great. And then I spend so much time trying to get adults to do stuff for me when I was a kid, like not even great stuff, like just normal stuff that I'm very good at manipulating people. So that works really well for podcasting. Sorry.

[Molly Jong Fast]

And I think the people know you most from msnbc.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah.

[Molly Jong Fast]

How does that work? I'm very curious about that. If you're contributing to that. How staffed are those shows in terms of your getting research and help with that stuff?

[Erika Jong]

They don't give you. Sometimes they'll give you pieces to read. What I try to do is I try. So the podcast really helps with going on television, believe it or not, because I talk to a lot of. So I have leader Jeffries on my podcast, or I have you on my podcast, or I have different elected's on my podcast. So I can say, I just talked to da da da and he said da da da. Because I talk to a lot of people. I just know a lot of stuff that's happening and that's very helpful. And then I try to read all the reporting I can in the Washington Post, the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, the Economist and the Atlantic and anything else I can read. And then I listen to these two really boring podcasts. One is I like better than the other that are like industry podcasts.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Industry. What industry is that?

[Erika Jong]

It is like politics industry. Like you know, the kind of the podcasts that lobbyists listen to, I listen to and then I try to talk to people. But you know why I like being on television is not because I have such great opinions, because I actually, even though I'm an opinion journalist, I'm on the opinion side. I don't think my opinions are actually what's useful about my punditry. I think what I do best is make connections. So I could make a connection between a Supreme Court decision and something else or this and that, you know, that I can put things together in a way that makes them make sense to people. And that, I think is much more useful than my opinion. That's why I try not to get involved in primaries, because unless it seems like there's a huge miscarriage of justice happening, I try not to get involved because I just either I'm not read in enough, or my opinion, even though I'm on the opinion side, isn't necessarily as informed as it needs to be.

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[Molly Jong Fast]

Let's talk about some of the stuff that's happening right now. What interests you in particular?

[Erika Jong]

I mean the thing that is getting me the most furious, if you want opinion, is I'm super agitated about the like lack of legislation and the lack of oversight from Congress and the Senate. Like that is what's getting me agitated. The bbb, which is this big beautiful bullshit bill that will cut Medicaid and.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Cut Medicare and they're Trying to cut it more now just to get it, make it cheaper.

[Erika Jong]

And by the way, it still grows.

[Molly Jong Fast]

The deficit huge because of the tax cuts.

[Erika Jong]

Right? It's an amazing piece of legislation that both grows the deficit and fucks over poor people and cuts snap. And I mean, it's just a terrible fucking disaster bill that Mike Johnson cooked up in about 10 minutes and passed in the dead of night and which many Republican senators now say they wouldn't sign had they read it.

[Molly Jong Fast]

House members wouldn't vote for House members.

[Erika Jong]

Right. Marjorie Taylor Greene, you'll remember, said, oh, I didn't know it had this. You can't regulate AI for 10 years at the state level. Right. It's a rejection of federalism, this bill. And then there's another thing in it that says the judiciary can't. Whatever. It limits the power of the judiciary. I mean, these are stuff, by the way, that the parliamentarian, the Senate parliamentarian is going to knock right out of there anyway. It's just so, so bad. And that is the stuff that gets me very agitated because I know that there is absolutely. It's just terrible. It's a terrible bill and it's gonna hurt a lot of people. So I hate that. That's my opinion.

[Molly Jong Fast]

But Trump called the big, beautiful bill, right?

[Erika Jong]

Yes, Trump. Look, it is the purest distillation of MAGA as a policy. It cuts taxes for rich people. It has this tax cut on tips, no tax on tips, which is like, it's like such a Trumpy thing because, okay, so he goes on the road, he says, no tax on tips. So then he says, we're going to do no tax on tips. Okay, what's the tip? Is my book advance a tip? Maybe that's a tip. Is what the hedge fund manager makes on the carried interest. Is that a tip? Because maybe that's a tip, you know, I mean, it's just a completely trumpy, nonsensical thing to do.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Well, I think most people know what tips are for waiters and for maids and in hotels and how many people report tips anyway? Well, that's a good question. I don't know if you're in a restaurant and people put the tip on the bill, maybe.

[Erika Jong]

But I mean, it's just, it's a completely crazy way to do business. I mean, I just think it's just a terrible piece of legislation which is gonna get through and doesn't need to get through, and Democrats should be able to stop. But the thing is, Republicans are just so incredibly, impressively craven that I don't know that that happens.

[Molly Jong Fast]

There was a Supreme Court decision this week where they upheld bans on transgender care for minors.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah.

[Molly Jong Fast]

See that?

[Erika Jong]

Yep.

[Molly Jong Fast]

And they decided 6, 3 to allow this law which allows states to ban that.

[Erika Jong]

Yep.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Now, to me, this is. You know, I would have been with the three. I think you would have been with the three, I guess.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Molly Jong Fast]

And basically, this prevents kids who are approaching puberty from using puberty blockers and hormones.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Which I think is a crime.

[Erika Jong]

I mean, it is. Again, like, do these people really give a fuck, or do they think this is good for them politically? And I think they think it's good for them politically, and that's why we're here.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Well, Supreme Court justices shouldn't care what's good for them politically.

[Erika Jong]

Right. But we know they do.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Well, I guess that's true.

[Erika Jong]

I mean, if you've seen Scalia and Thomas, you know, like, these guys just watch Fox News all day long.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Well, not Scalia anymore.

[Erika Jong]

Right, Sorry. Thomas and Alito Scalia is watching Fox News in the Sky.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Yeah.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah, that's right.

[Molly Jong Fast]

I'm from Minnesota, and my listeners will have heard my monologue about Melissa Hortman and the horrible assassination. And I know I shared with you when I was on your podcast how great Melissa was.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah.

[Molly Jong Fast]

And Mike Lee's tweet.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah.

[Molly Jong Fast]

This is what happens when Marxists don't get their way. This is what happens when Marxists don't get their way. How appalling was that?

[Erika Jong]

I think it's pretty appalling. What I think was interesting about it was he's clearly trying to do this Trumpy thing of having it both ways. Right.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Well, I think he's trying to say that she was killed from someone who was a Marxist.

[Erika Jong]

On the left.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Yeah, on the left. He's trying to Marxist today.

[Erika Jong]

Right. And he's trying to. So, you know. And that's what Trump said, too. Right. Trump also made sort of an overture that perhaps this was not a Trump voter, which of course it was, who had a list of Democrats he wanted to kill. But maybe this is. But look what I was actually. Believe it or not, what was interesting about the Mike Lee thing was he didn't get away with it. That's the first time he deleted the tweet. Tina Smith was like, took him aside. We don't know what she said, but it seemed like she was pretty much.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Saw the photo.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah, yeah. There was just a lot of weirdly. And look, he didn't apologize because he's maga. And why would he Though he does represent Utah, a state filled with very religious people. So that is kind of odd. But I actually was glad. I thought people actually did weirdly hold him accountable, which, as you and I both know, is unusual.

[Molly Jong Fast]

I think part of it came from that. What Ed Shelby wrote, who was my former deputy chief of staff and now is Senator Smith's.

[Erika Jong]

Yeah.

[Molly Jong Fast]

So let's talk about one last thing. Iran.

[Erika Jong]

Yes.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Should we. Should we get involved in this?

[Erika Jong]

No. The one thing I liked about Trump, and I don't like really anything about Trump, is that he said to avoid.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Us getting into war.

[Erika Jong]

Involved in war. By the way, can I just say, Netanyahu's been saying we gotta bomb Iran for, like, there was a compilation. He's been saying it since he got in office 20 million years ago. I mean, I think that bombing Iran is a terrible idea. I think that never goes well for us. We can't even handle.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Our being involved in a war in that region is never good for us.

[Erika Jong]

It's never good for us. And there's always some stupid reason to go in there, and it's always a fucking disaster. So the idea that now we're gonna go in because Netanyahu, who has created this terrible situation in Gaza where all of us are starving, is now gonna bomb, you know, I mean, this. It's insane. There's zero reason to do this. And the worst part about this whole story is that it makes me agree with Tucker Carlson. I'm sorry, but, like, you know, literally the worst, worst.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Does Cruz want to go in?

[Erika Jong]

I mean, Cruz wants to go in because of the Bible. And again, we are in no way endorsing Tucker Carlson by any stretch of the imagination. Right, But Tucker goes, what part of the Bible? And Ted Cruz doesn't have an answer. So he goes, the Scripture. And he goes, what part of the scripture? And he says, well, I don't know exactly. And then Tucker goes, you want to bomb Iran, but you don't know because of the Bible, but you don't know what part. Again, I do not want to say anything nice about Tucker, but I was really. That was some pretty good interviewing.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Well, it's been great.

[Erika Jong]

Thank you.

[Molly Jong Fast]

I hope to see the book back on the list.

[Erika Jong]

Me, too.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Well, I hope you enjoyed listening. That beautiful music is by Leo Kotke. The great Leo Kotke. I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next week.

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