Rep. Madeleine Dean on POTUS Pardon Corruption

Summary

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The Al Franken Podcast

Guest Host: Norm Ornstein

Guest: Rep. Madeleine Dean

Episode: Rep. Madeleine Dean on POTUS Pardon Corruption

Date: March 29, 2026

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Overview

In this special guest-hosted episode, congressional scholar Norm Ornstein sits down with Rep. Madeleine Dean (D-PA) to discuss the rampant corruption in the presidential pardon process under Donald Trump’s administration. The conversation examines the systemic abuse of pardon power, the broader climate of grift and pay-to-play politics, the devastating impacts on American democratic institutions, foreign policy consequences, and the ongoing crisis at the U.S. border—with particular focus on ICE intimidation and detention conditions. The episode concludes by reflecting on the repair work ahead for the country.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Background and Introduction

• Norm Ornstein introduces the episode, sharing his Minneapolis roots and years-long friendship with Al Franken. He lauds Rep. Dean’s career as an influential House member and impeachment manager. (01:05–02:49)
• Ornstein frames the discussion: “Let’s talk first about the piece we just wrote ... on the presidential pardon power… putting this into context.” (04:53)

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2. The Corruption of Presidential Pardon Power

Abuse of Power for Self-Enrichment

• Norm Ornstein & Madeleine Dean dissect recent revelations that Trump withheld classified documents for personal gain and possibly engaged in insider trading tied to foreign policy decisions.
  • “It’s about the grift. It’s always about the grift.” (05:27, Ornstein)
• Rep. Dean details the unprecedented mass pardon of January 6th insurrectionists immediately after Trump’s second inauguration, including those guilty or convicted of violent acts.

  “Day one ... the pardoning of more than 1,500 folks, criminals, who participated in the January 6th violent insurrection ... It was very clear who incited it ... then those who either pleaded guilty were convicted—he pardoned every one of them, a blanket pardon to all the insurrectionists. I was there.” (07:30, Dean)

• Dean recalls the panic and confusion in the House gallery that day, drawing on the emotional weight and peril for all present.

Pardon Power Intended for Mercy, Now for Corruption

• Rep. Dean invokes Shakespeare to contrast intended versus actual use:

  “The quality of mercy is not strained... It was not meant to pardon his cronies, give harbor and respite to insurrectionists, and to send the signal: if you do it on my behalf, all is forgiven.” (09:26, Dean)

• Ornstein underscores that Trump’s abuses are not just about the past, but also “sending the signal that anybody who commits a crime on his behalf is going to be pardoned.” (13:42)
• Pay-for-play pardons: pardons are being sold to campaign donors or supporters, undermining the justice system.

Notable Quotes

• “Grotesque abuse of power. That’s why ... we’ll need a constitutional amendment to rein this back in.” (11:14, Dean)
• "The signal’s gone out: you pay up, you can get a pardon." (16:58, Ornstein)

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3. Specific Examples of Trump-Era Corrupt Pardons

Pay-for-Play and Cronyism

• Example: Trevor Milton, convicted of massive fraud, donates $900,000 and is pardoned, with restitution wiped away. (14:50, Ornstein)
• Other examples include the former president of Honduras (drug trafficking pardoned), and Paul Wolczak (Florida nursing home fraud, restitution erased after his mother attends a million-dollar fundraiser). (15:52–16:58)

Selective Clemency and Extreme Cases

• Ross Ulbricht (Silk Road founder) given full unconditional pardon.
• While Trump decries drug traffickers, he pardons others majorly convicted of drug offenses if politically expedient.

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4. Foreign Policy Corruption and Authoritarian Drift

Venezuela and International Corruption

• Ornstein and Dean detail U.S. actions in Venezuela—confiscating gold and oil, turning a blind eye to human rights abusers if they cooperate with the Trump White House. (19:05–22:19, Ornstein/Dean)
• Ornstein speculates how foreign convicts could be leveraged to help promote Trump’s electoral narratives.

  “All you have to do ... is sign an affidavit saying Venezuela interfered in the 2016 election on behalf of Democrats, and all will be fine with you. This is an effort by Trump to try to argue that foreign interference ... is enough for him to seize ballot boxes and interfere in the election.” (19:05, Ornstein)

Damaged Alliances and Global Standing

• Dean describes the fallout from Trump’s attempted “purchase” of Greenland and threatening Denmark/Greenland—causing fear and eroding trust among key NATO allies. Heartbreaking stories of Greenlandic children fearing American invasion are recounted. (23:37–26:50)
• “America first, America alone—it’s all about us—has done tremendous damage ... will take a long time to mend.” (25:55, Dean)
• Ornstein: “If Vladimir Putin had been asked a year ago what his wish list would be to destroy the United States and our alliances ... check, check, check.” (26:50)

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5. Domestic Intimidation, ICE Abuses, and the Border Crisis

ICE as a Political Weapon

• Front-page reports cited of ICE intimidation against Democratic lawmakers in Minnesota:

  “...followed, intimidated by, and verbally attacked by ICE ... This is what we see in a police state.” (29:42–29:56, Ornstein)

• Dean details ICE’s thuggish behavior in her own district—fear among families, children, and community efforts to resist intimidation and unlawful detentions.

Private Detention and Human Suffering

• Harrowing account of a visit to the Dilley, Texas facility:
  • Lack of medical care (“A two-year-old ... an infection so bad in her mouth that we could see green ... no help.”)
  • Fake educational facilities (“They took us over proudly showing us the educational unit ... no kid had ever set foot in this classroom.”)
  • Squalid, inhumane conditions for children and families. (32:25–37:45)

Notable Quotes

• “They’re holding out medical help and ... humanity. These are people who I’m sure still call themselves pro-life ... and they are willing to let people suffer and die.” (39:12, Dean)
• “These are concentration camps.” (37:58, Ornstein)
• “Correct.” (38:00, Dean)

Systemic Corruption and Indifference

• “We now are buying warehouses that have been sitting empty for huge sums of money that are no doubt going to cronies of the president and the people around him. And they don’t care.” (39:09, Dean)

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6. Closing Thoughts on Democracy, Accountability, and Hope

• Dean and Ornstein reflect on ongoing legal and political challenges, including women criminally charged after miscarriages (40:20).
• Both stress the need for post-Trump repair:

  “When this administration ends, when we get control of the House ... there’s so much repair to do.” (41:00, Guest/Dean)

• Ornstein closes with gratitude to Rep. Dean for her conscience and fight.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “It’s about the grift. It’s always about the grift.” — Norm Ornstein (05:27)
• “Day one ... the pardoning of more than 1,500 folks, criminals, who participated in the January 6th violent insurrection ... a blanket pardon to all the insurrectionists. I was there.” — Madeleine Dean (07:30)
• “The quality of mercy is not strained ... It was not meant to pardon his cronies ...” — Madeleine Dean (09:26)
• “Grotesque abuse of power. That’s why ... we’ll need a constitutional amendment to rein this back in.” — Madeleine Dean (11:14)
• “The signal’s gone out: you pay up, you can get a pardon.” — Norm Ornstein (16:58)
• “ICE in the airport ... have no training in this area ... It’s jarringly stupid. A waste of our resources.” — Madeleine Dean (31:40)
• “These are concentration camps.” — Norm Ornstein (37:58)
• “Correct.” — Madeleine Dean (38:00)
• “They are willing to let people suffer and die. And that’s what we’re living with.” — Madeleine Dean (39:12)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:05 – Norm Ornstein opens the show and introduces Rep. Dean
• 04:53 – The context: presidential pardon corruption and current news
• 07:30 – Dean’s account of January 6th and Trump’s mass pardons
• 13:42 – Pardons as loyalty rewards and pay-for-play examples
• 19:05 – Venezuela: corruption, looting, and global consequences
• 23:37 – Aftershocks in Greenland, Denmark, and NATO
• 29:42 – ICE intimidation and police state tactics in Minnesota
• 32:25 – Trauma and neglect in border detention centers
• 37:58 – “These are concentration camps.”
• 40:20 – Criminalization of reproductive health
• 41:00 – Closing reflections: hope, repair, and gratitude

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Episode Tone and Language

The discussion is sober, urgent, and at times outraged. Dean and Ornstein speak in clear, pointed terms—anchored by personal anecdotes and illustrative specifics—with a sense of shared purpose and moral clarity. The emotional impact is sharpened by direct witness accounts and an unsparing assessment of system-level corruption. The references to history, literature, and the language of the Constitution reinforce the gravity and stakes of the present situation.

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Summary

This episode offers a scathing, unfiltered examination of the Trump administration’s abuses of the pardon power as symptomatic of broader corruption—highlighting the transformation of executive clemency from a mercy to a tool for cronyism and self-enrichment. Dean and Ornstein go further, describing a parallel decay of America’s moral standing in both domestic and foreign affairs, with chilling details about ICE abuses and the erosion of alliances. While the conversation ends on a note of frustration, it also acknowledges the resolve and decency that persist among those fighting for reform.

Highly recommended for listeners interested in the intersection of policy, law, and the fight for democratic accountability in the United States.

Transcript

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[Al Franken]

Hey everybody, we've got a great one today. You know, for a change, because this one is guest hosted by my friend and friend of the show, Norm Ornstein. You see, I'm taking a little break from the podcast. I've been doing this show for seven years and deserve it and you know, nothing is happening. Well, Norm can tell you more about that now. You might remember Norm from his many appearances on the show, maybe more than any other guest. We really should keep track of this stuff, but in case you forgot, I'll tell you why Norm is so great. We grew up in the same suburb of Minneapolis, St. Louis park, about a mile apart, but we didn't meet until the 1988 Democratic convention in Atlanta and became fast friends. At the time, Norm was a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, which is considered a conservative think tank. Norm was a moderate. He says the Republican Party moved to the right, but truth be told, Norm has also moved to the left. Norm is one of the most respected scholars of Congress, but more than that, a great friend. He officiated my daughter's wedding and the bris of my grandson. Norm is one of my favorite folks to have on the show and today Norm Ornstein hosts the Al Franken Podcast. I can guarantee that this is going to be a great one, you know, for a change. So Norm, take it away.

[Norm Ornstein]

Welcome everybody to the Al Rankin Podcast. I am as you can tell not Al Franken. I'm here to substitute for him. And when Peter Ogburn, the producer, asked who I'd like to have as a guest, I said I want Madeline Dean. Madeline Dean represents mostly Montgomery County, Pennsylvania, which is the suburb just north of Philadelphia. And a little bit more. She's been in the House Since, I think 2018 was, right from the beginning, a rising star. I should note that she is one who was able to change the Pennsylvania congressional delegation, along with three others of her colleagues, four women superstars in the House, and Madeleine, who now serves on the Appropriations and Foreign Affairs Committee. But also, as many of you no doubt will remember or recognize, served as one of the impeachment managers for Donald Trump's second impeachment. And we should just note that if it weren't for Mitch McConnell, we probably would not be in this horrific mess that we are now in, because he having already said on the floor of the Senate that Donald Trump was responsible for the violent insurrection, an insurrection in which Madeline Dean was there and like everybody else there, feared for her life, not to mention the future of the country. Despite that, McConnell made sure that Trump was not convicted in that impeachment, prevented from running for office again. So thank you, Mitch, for that, among many other things. So, Madeline Dean, let's talk first about the piece we just wrote. It's not clear exactly where or when it will appear on the presidential pardon power, but I want to put this into a little bit of context, which is another set of stories that we've had in the last couple of days,

[Madeleine Dean]

the most shocking, perhaps, and it tells us an awful lot about where we are with the outrages facing the country, because it'll be another one of those stories that lasts for a half a day and passes. We have, as Madeleine's colleague Jamie Raskin

[Norm Ornstein]

pointed out yesterday before being attacked viciously

[Madeleine Dean]

and inappropriately by President Trump's press secretary, a revelation from Jack Smith's papers, inadvertently released by Pam Bondi's Justice Department in a mad effort to try to whitewash what's going on with Trump, that the reason he stashed all of these documents, including one so secret it only had access to six people, was for personal financial gain. As I frequently say, it's about the grift. It's always about the grift. Then we have the other story from a couple of days ago of trades involving more than a billion dollars, just minutes before Donald Trump announced his new policy towards Iran, reaping profits into the hundreds of millions of dollars. Clearly, insider trading. At some point, we may find out what they are. We have grift everywhere from the family of the president. The story that a board of a company that which Donald Trump Jr. Serves got over $600 million in contracts from the federal government, that Pam Bondi's Justice Department just yesterday gave over a million dollars to Michael Flynn, saying that he had been wrongfully prosecuted, a man who admitted he was guilty and when asked in court if he was doing it because he was genuinely guilty, said under oath.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yes.

[Madeleine Dean]

So they're just spreading taxpayer money to all of their cronies. But the worst of it, as we saw it, was the pardon power, which was, as Madeleine has pointed out to me, and in this piece designed for the purpose of mercy, which goes back many centuries, talk a little bit about this Representative Dean and about what we

[Norm Ornstein]

ought to do about it.

[Guest (Likely a Congressional Colleague or Commentator)]

Well, Norm, it is always good to be in conversation with you. I've had the pleasure of talking with you for the eight years that I have been in the House. I'm delighted to join you today. Well, you packed a lot in there. I want to recall back, if you don't mind, to the old days of Trump 1, when Jamie Raskin and I used to sit on the floor of the House as we were voting and chat about that quaint constitutional provision called the emoluments clause. Remember at the time we were talking about Trump traveling to all his golf courses and resorts and charging the American taxpayer for it. Remember Trump Hotel, where international folks would come. And so the president was participating in enriching himself, his family and his businesses. They seem quaint by today's standards. The last time I saw, I think this is just this week in the New Yorker, the grift is up to about $4 billion for this president and his families. And I think that doesn't even capture the cronies around him in terms of the pardon power and how it has been so perverted by this president. Maybe most shocking to me, and I think to you also, was that day one, the day he was sworn in for a second time, the pardoning of more than 1,500 folks, criminals, who participated in the January 6th violent insurrection where police officers died, were maimed, lost their careers. It was, you know, it was a most terrifying day. And it was very clear, incited it. Who invited it? Incited it, sent these folks up under an incendiary set of lies, a campaign of lies about the election being stolen, which of course was not true. And then those who either pleaded guilty were convicted. He pardoned Every one of them a blanket pardon to all the insurrectionists. I was there. I was in that gallery when we began to hear this strange set of commands from the floor of the house. First, please sit down. Please prepare to lie down. Please get the gas mask out from under your seat. Norm, you and I have talked about this. None of us knew there were gas masks under our seat. It was staggering as we heard the pounding on those beautiful ceremonial doors before the glass was broken and a shot was fired. It's grotesque. And by the way, what did the President do for 187 minutes as we were all in danger, as our staffs were in danger, the press was in danger. His very vice president had to be escorted quickly from where he was and wisely didn't leave the building. He wouldn't leave. So to me, it is grotesque, the pardon power. And that's why I likened it to one of my favorite readings from Shakespeare. The quality of mercy is not strained, meaning it's not forced. It is not strained. It droppeth as the gentle rain upon the place beneath. Mr. Trump has no clue about what the pardon power was meant to do, which was meant to season justice, as Shakespeare tells us, just lightly season it. It was not meant to pardon his cronies, give harbor respite to insurrectionists, and to send the signal, if you do it on my behalf, all is forgiven, you'll be just fine. Grotesque abuse of power. And I'm looking forward to your expertise. And in our piece, we say that we'll need a constitutional amendment to rein this back in.

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[Norm Ornstein]

So we also know that set of blanket pardons, which of course included all of those convicted of seditious conspiracy and the head of the Proud Boys, Enrico Tarrio, who was one of those pardoned after a jail sentence of almost 30 years, has just been to Mar a Lago. But we also know that this wasn't just about the past. It's about the future, with the Supreme Court having given the President immunity from official actions that doesn't extend to those he orders to do illegal things. And he is making it clear that anybody who commits a crime on his behalf is going to be pardoned. But as we also know, Madeleine Dean, it's not just about January 6th. It's about pay for play pardons. It's about pardons that are to reward his donors and supporters who break the law on his behalf. It's about corrupt pardons of public officials who abuse their office if they pledge loyalty to the President, as he's done with a number of them. And even worse, it's about those where people come pay money into his campaign coffers, his political committees, go to his fundraisers and give a lot of money. And the response is to take horrible criminals and pardon them. I'll mention an example or two. One is a man named Trevor Milton, who was convicted of fraud from his electric truck company, startup sentenced to four years in prison and ordered to pay a whopping $675 million in restitution to those he had bilked and his wife. And Milton contributed $900,000 to Trump's political committees. Trump pardoned him and wiped away the payments to the victims. So it's not just the pardon, it's the people who got screwed. We have story after story of those over 70 allies, donors and others convicted in fraud cases.

[Madeleine Dean]

Drug traffickers. You know, he talks about the war on drugs, kills people off the coast of Venezuela, many of whom are probably just fishermen, and then pardons the former president of Honduras who facilitated the transport of 400 tons of cocaine into the United States. Not pounds, tons. And on and on. And of course, he fired the pardon attorney, Liz Oyer, when she would not give a pardon or recommend a pardon for Mel Gibson, who'd been convicted of domestic violence and wanted to get a gun again. So this is just one part of the corruption in this administration.

[Guest (Likely a Congressional Colleague or Commentator)]

How about Paul Wolczak? He was sentenced to 18 months for stealing his Florida nursing home employees tax payments, ordered to pay 4.4 million in restitution, and he's pardoned. The payments are wiped out, as you point out, just weeks after his mom attended a $1 million a plate fundraiser at Mar a Lago.

[Norm Ornstein]

The signal's gone out. You pay up, you can get a pardon. He has lobbyist friends who are making a fortune by making it clear that you give them money and they're buddies of his, they'll manage to get you a pardon.

[Guest (Likely a Congressional Colleague or Commentator)]

Think about what's happening. I think today is the beginning of the Maduro trial, if I'm not mistaken.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yeah.

[Guest (Likely a Congressional Colleague or Commentator)]

Oh, I'm so glad we jumped in there and grabbed him on the basis of drug trafficking in Venezuela. You point out Juan Orlando Hernandez, former president of Honduras, pardoned. How about Ross Ulbricht, founder of Silk Road? He was convicted in 2015 on multiple charges, including distributing narcotics by means of the Internet. He's sentenced to 40 years without the possibility of parole. And what happened to him? He received a full unconditional pardon by Donald Trump January of last year. So that was important to him. That first month, that first 10 days in office, he was pardoning this huge Internet drug trafficker. You know, I care a lot about this. I have a son in recovery from addiction. I want to make sure illicit drugs, contraband, are not getting into our country. But how do you, on the one hand, say this is all about drugs in Venezuela? This is all about drugs. That's why I'm blowing up these fishing boats. There must be fentanyl on them, by the way. We have no evidence of that. I've asked over and over again. Sure, there could be some drugs trafficking, but it was never what the president said. But we're going to now try in New York, Maduro and his wife. But Maduro principally, and I thought the trial will go on, and guess what? He'll probably wind up with a pardon under this administration. It is grotesque and the corruption is beyond belief. It never was what the framers wanted or intended in terms of offering the executive, only the executive pardon power.

[Norm Ornstein]

So since we brought up Maduro and Venezuela, let me make a couple of additional points. I'm expecting that after Maduro is convicted, he will get a visit from Todd Blanche or somebody else in the Trump Justice Department, and it will basically be, we can send you to a hellhole of a prison, maybe we'll send you to Alligator Alcatraz, or we can get you a cell right next to Ghislaine Maxwell where you can have all kinds of wonderful privileges, including terrific food, time off, the ability to play a little golf. All you have to do if you want that latter option, is to sign an affidavit saying that Venezuela interfered in the 2016 election on behalf of Democrats, and all will be fine with you. This is an effort by Trump to try to argue that foreign interference in the election, which as we know, did occur with Russia, is enough for him to seize ballot boxes and interfere in the election. And I'd love to have you comment on that. But also, since you're on the Foreign Affairs Committee and of course, deeply involved in American foreign policy, we had another story of corruption. We've had two. One is they took $80 million from Venezuelan oil and parked it in a bank account in Qatar. And, and just yesterday, our Secretary of the Interior, Doug Burgum, announced proudly that he had come back with 100 pounds of Venezuelan gold. We're looting the gold reserves of Venezuela, taking their oil and leaving in charge the number two to Maduro. And who has just put in another

[Madeleine Dean]

high position, somebody notorious for torture and mistreatment of political opponents and prisoners.

[Guest (Likely a Congressional Colleague or Commentator)]

Okay, Norm, you're seeing around corners. I have not glanced around yet. Your, your thoughts on what will happen with a conviction for Maduro, where he might wind up and what he might be asked to do. Oh, my God. We're still litigating. This president is still litigating these elections, two of which he won, for crying out loud. It's hard to imagine. And by the way, I agree with you on Mitch McConnell. I wonder how that man sleeps to use that tired, tired cliche. The history making difference that he would have made if he had just voted the truth. The Venezuela thing, it was never about fentanyl, it was never about drug trafficking. It was always about the grift, it was always about oil. We could say the same over with Greenland. I kept saying, look under the ice. He's looking for precious metals. He's looking to own stuff and enrich himself. I did not read yet about the gold he brought back. How much gold?

[Norm Ornstein]

£100, basically. I think from everything that I can gather, the entire gold reserve of the Venezuelan people and government. It boggles the mind.

[Guest (Likely a Congressional Colleague or Commentator)]

I, I'm rarely speechless, but I don't even know where to begin with that. Boy, is that obvious when you're packing gold.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yeah, they're looting the country. And of course we also know there's a couple of other elements here. We know now that Denmark and their allies and our allies were prepared to blow up the airport runways in Greenland because they genuinely feared that Donald Trump was going to send in a military force to take over Greenland, a NATO ally of ours. A country that has had people who shed blood on behalf of the United States as part of their NATO commitments. And it tells us a lot about where other leaders, including our allies, are and how they feel about this president. And that doesn't even get it begin to get us into the quagmire we're now in with Iran.

[Guest (Likely a Congressional Colleague or Commentator)]

Well, I don't know if you know this, but I was on a congressional delegation, a CODEL with Chris Coons, Senator Tillis, Senator Murkowski, the weekend before Donald Trump came off the Greenland ledge. And we went first to Denmark where we met with the Prime Minister of Denmark and the Prime Minister of Greenland, members of Parliament from both. And they were stunned by what the heck was going on. One of the most heartbreaking things that they all expressed to us was that children in Greenland were fearful, not able to sleep at night when they saw planes coming into the very place you're talking about where they would have resorted to blowing up their only their Runway. The children said, is that the Americans coming for us, grotesque breach of faith with one of our oldest NATO founding member, oldest NATO allies. What they said to us, and I remember meeting with them a year prior when he floated the Greenland idea and of course the tariff nonsense, they said to us that we recognize that by 2030 we need to be prepared to go it alone without the United States Support for us and for our defense. To your point, Denmark, they were personally deeply offended by this attack by the President and incoherent, mad attack that I must have, Greenland, because they took us to a memorial where I believe it's 50 members of their military fought and died alongside us in the war in Afghanistan and Iraq. Fifty of them died alongside us. Per capita, it is equal to the losses we suffered. So they take this extremely personally. But the breach of faith with our allies, this, America first, America alone, it's all about us, has done tremendous damage. I will say that I was pleased to be a part of that delegation because we were fortunate to have two Republicans there who said, this is madness. This is not the position of the United States Congress. This is the President alone with this ambition. And you know what I kept saying, Norm? At the end of every meeting, I'd say, I hope there's somebody coming up with a framework for the president so he can back off this and claim he got something. And what happened? The middle of the next week, they came up with a framework that he boasted of. He got nothing out of that framework. Denmark, Greenland wants more investment by the United States. We once had 18 bases there. We're down to one. And so they offered him exactly what they had been offering before he walked off that ledge and set his sights elsewhere. But the damage done to our allies and our relationships will take a long time to mend.

[Norm Ornstein]

You know, let's face it, if Vladimir Putin had been asked a year ago what his wish list would be to destroy the United States and our alliances and enable Russia to take advantage of the turmoil, it's almost like a checklist where you go, check, check, check, check, check. And we're seeing this now, of course, with attacks on our allies after we blundered into this war with Iran. The president saying, nobody said that they would close the Straits of Hormuz. When, of course, we know that that was the first thing that every analyst doing potential war games had said over and over again, there's no way out where he said, we're not going to send in our navy. We want NATO to send in their boats to be vulnerable, to clear the straits when they had nothing to do with this war and were not consulted in advance. It's a remarkable turn. And of course, it doesn't just benefit Russia, it also benefits China.

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[Alex Kanchrowitz]

Cassandra Casino hi, this is Alex Canceroitz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to cnbc. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology, I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon and Play. Plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[Norm Ornstein]

I want to pivot with the time we have remaining to a couple of other issues. I am, as I think you know, just like Al from Minnesota. We both are from the same little suburb of St. Louis Park. And I read every day the Minneapolis Star Tribune, which has been a hero among the dwindling number of regional newspapers. And the way they've covered the invasion by ICE and the Border Patrol into Minnesota, I was delighted to see, just as an aside, the Kennedy Profiles and Courage Award going to the people of Minnesota who stood up against this. But the top banner headline in today's paper was chilling and it was that a number of Democratic state lawmakers, members

[Madeleine Dean]

of the Minnesota Senate and House were followed, intimidated by and verbally attacked by

[Norm Ornstein]

ICE because they stood up against what

[Madeleine Dean]

I was doing in violating the law and the Constitution. Having ICE vehicles drive by their homes, stop in front, take pictures, having a woman identify herself as a legislator, saying, you're blocking the street from kids getting home from school and having ICE people call her a slut and worse to her face. This is what we see in a police state. And we know now that we've had ice in Philadelphia. We had the D.A. larry Krasner say something that's been distorted by many Republicans on social media, basically saying if the ICE in the airports violate the law, we're going to take care of them and they can't be pardoned. But if they're doing good work and helping out, good for them. Talk a little bit about what you see with what's happening with ICE and what it means for your own constituents.

[Guest (Likely a Congressional Colleague or Commentator)]

Oh, my constituents are very fearful and we've had ICE activity in my district. Intimidation, picking up people, arresting people, detaining people, deporting people, children fearful, parents fearful to get to work, fearful to get their kids to school We've had community efforts to help people and protect families that were worried and intimidated. That headline and that report. I'm a former state legislator in Pennsylvania. That kind of lawless, grotesque, thuggish, corrupt, intimidation and disruption of community is. Well, I don't have the right words to be honest. In Philadelphia, we had someone die in ICE detention. A gentleman who kept saying, I'm suffering from withdrawal. He was addicted and he was suffering from withdrawal. They got him no help. He died in detention, I think died probably aspirating from his own vomit and sickness. And now we do have ICE at the airport. And by the way, there's no reason why TSA has not been paid. The Republicans have chosen not to pay them. That's it. There's just, I hope to God we don't get out of here and go on a so called Easter break and not have this resolved. It never should have happened. But ICE in the airport, they weren't trained to do the job they were set up to do. Why in God's name do we want them in our airport? I've traveled through Philadelphia airport a lot these last couple of weeks for work. The TSA agents were professional, thoughtful, courteous, and I just kept going through and saying thank you to them. How you stand next to ICE agents who have no training in this area, who are being paid as you're doing the work of keeping the flying public safe at a time of heightened terror threat, it's jarringly stupid. A waste of our resources. We know that the resources should be going to tsa. They never should have been cut. So I was recently down in Dilley, Texas. I don't know that I've told you about that. With Joaquin Castro. He's been in and out of there. It's his district many times. We were there at a time when the numbers were down. The place can hold up to 2,000 folks. A human warehouse. It's a bunch of trailers, corrugated trailers, frankly, that have been put together to for profit. This is a multi billion dollar New York stock exchange traded company, core civic, private company, you know, publicly traded, but for profit. They can house up to 2,000 people. I tried to get a number on what is the American government paying for this service? What are they paying per head? What are they paying per day? Whatever it is, couldn't get the answer out of the administrator. I'm still waiting for it. Our own research shows it's millions of dollars a month. But worse than that is what they're doing there and what they're not doing. When we were there, we met with families, mothers, fathers, children. And the number one thing they said, our children are so fearful, they are traumatized, they're not able to sleep, they just want to go back to school, they want to go back to their friends. Many of these people were picked up as they were going to attend their own next hearing, lawful scheduled hearing. And there is serious medical neglect. There was a two year old little girl with an infection so bad in her mouth that we could see green and she couldn't eat. And her mother said, she's in such pain and they were not getting her help. Forgive this description, but I think the little boy was four. He had been picked up with a parent eight days before and had not had a bowel movement and he was not getting the help he needed. A woman, 32, she's been vomiting since January. Now she is vomiting blood. And they said, it's all in your head. Just grotesque medical neglect, mental health neglect. But you know what was even stranger? They took us over, proudly showing us the educational unit. It's a bright shiny room and at the time we were there, there were 99 children in detention. It was so clear that no kid had ever set foot in this classroom. It was pristine, literally. On the tables were art boxes, plastic art boxes that never saw a crayon or a pen or a paintbrush. They were shiny new. And then they had splayed on the table construction paper as though that's educational. And so I said, what is the educational program here for these kids who might be here for days and weeks and months? We don't have one, but the court just said we are required to provide one. I said, oh, good. How many employees are at this place? More than 600 employees. I said, how many teachers? One. I said, wow, what a lonely teacher for multiple different languages. People from Russia, Europe, Colombia, Mexico, Honduras, Venezuela, just, you name it. So I said, when did you stage this classroom? Because it is clear nobody ever set foot in here with that. Nanette Barragan went over because I held up the plastic bucket that still had its sticker on it. Nobody had ever used it. And Nanette Barragan went over to the box that held all the crayons and all the crayons as you open them up. Never been drawn with. These kids are sitting there. I didn't see a toy, they didn't have a book. They didn't have, obviously an educational program. And I sort of railed at the administrator. I said, you don't know what you're charging here. You haven't provided an educational program. These kids are traumatized. How they would feel just some ease if they had a chance to think and learn and be social with children. Learning. And I said, you thought enough to staff up to 600 people. That's in addition to 50 ICE officers. This is just the company. And it didn't occur to you to staff up educationally for these kids? They're holding out medical help and they're holding out mental help and they're holding out humanity. They're just not seeing the humanity in these people who are not the worst of the worst. They're just people who were trying to get a better life.

[Norm Ornstein]

These are concentration camps.

[Guest (Likely a Congressional Colleague or Commentator)]

Correct.

[Norm Ornstein]

And it's not an exaggeration to say so. The number of people who've died in them, I think we have no real idea. We certainly know about some. We know about many who died because they were denied medical help. We know about a former Marine. They're picking up people who serve this country and put their lives on the line deporting many of them. We had a Marine who died a day after being taken in because he had asthma and they wouldn't give him his medications. These are private prisons run by those who have no humanity. And we have to end in a minute. I just want to circle back what you added to our discussion early on about the pardons. They're about mercy, about fundamental decency and humanity. And the reality is, with ICE now, we know, by the way, that they lied directly to people in the Justice

[Madeleine Dean]

Department lawyers who took their word for the what the law allowed and going

[Norm Ornstein]

into courtrooms and seizing people.

[Madeleine Dean]

And the Justice Department lawyers had to apologize to the court. We'll see if anybody's held accountable for that. They've lied. They've thumbed their noses at the law, at judges. They have their level of corruption. We now are buying warehouses that have been sitting empty for huge sums of money that are no doubt going to cronies of the president and the people around him. And they don't care. They don't care about kids. These are people who I'm sure still call themselves pro life. And they are willing to let people suffer and die. And that's what we're living with. And unfortunately, that's what we're going to have to contend with for quite a while to come. I wish we had better news. I'm sorry we don't have more time. I wanted to talk to you about another issue that's dear, near and dear to your heart on reproductive health care, where we now have a woman charged with murder for using a medication and having a premature miscarriage.

[Norm Ornstein]

Charged with murder.

[Madeleine Dean]

That's the world. We're now living in a hellhole in many states throughout this country. I wish we could be more uplifting, but the most uplifting thing that I can say is thank goodness we have people who care, like Madeleine Dean representing us in Congress and fighting back against some of the awful things happening. I know you've got a vote to get to and I just want to thank you so much for spending time with us.

[Guest (Likely a Congressional Colleague or Commentator)]

Well, let's do it again. And I know we'll do it privately as well, not on a podcast. Because when this is all said and done, when this administration ends, when we get control of the house and this administration one day ends, there's so much repair to do. And I know you really written and thought a lot about that. And so I'll be in that that work with you.

[Norm Ornstein]

Thank you.

[Guest (Likely a Congressional Colleague or Commentator)]

My pleasure to be with you.

[Al Franken]

Well, I hope you enjoyed listening. That beautiful music is by Leo Kotke, the great Leo Kotke. I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next.

[Guest (Likely a Congressional Colleague or Commentator)]

Foreign.

[Tyler Reddick]

From 2311 Racing Victory Lane. Yeah, it's even better with Chumba by my side. Race to chumbacasino.com let's Chumba. No purchase necessary BTW Group Void where prohibited by law CTNCs21+ Sponsored by Chumba

[Alex Kanchrowitz]

Casino Hi, this is Alex Canceroitz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to cnbc. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology, I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.