YouTube Sensation David Pakman on The Big, Beautiful Bill and More!

Summary

Episode Summary: YouTube Sensation David Pakman on The Big, Beautiful Bill and More!

Release Date: June 8, 2025
Hosted by: Al Franken
Guest: David Pakman, progressive political commentator and host of a widely popular podcast with over 3 million subscribers.

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1. Introduction and Guest Background

Al Franken kicks off the episode by introducing David Pakman, highlighting his significant online presence and his role as a progressive commentator. Franken humorously remarks on the subscription numbers, setting a lighthearted tone for the discussion.

Notable Quote:

Al Franken (00:29): "David Pakman is a very popular progressive political commentator and a great communicator, and you're going to love this conversation."

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2. Trump’s Anti-Semitism and Harvard Controversy

The conversation delves into the contentious topic of President Donald Trump's alleged anti-Semitic remarks and actions, juxtaposed against Harvard University's issues with anti-Semitism. Franken asserts that Trump exhibits more overt anti-Semitic behavior than Harvard, citing specific instances from Trump’s past statements and actions.

Notable Quotes:

Al Franken (02:10): "Trump is more anti Semitic than Harvard."

David Pakman (03:15): "The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day. Well, that's kind of a compliment. Jews are good at counting money."

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3. The Reality of the Harvard Anti-Semitism Claims

David Pakman provides a nuanced perspective on the claims against Harvard, referencing Larry Summers' critique in the New York Times. He emphasizes the improbability that President Trump is the primary challenger to Harvard's anti-Semitism issues, suggesting that Trump's motivations may be more politically driven than personally rooted.

Notable Quote:

David Pakman (34:34): "It's crazy that I'm saying this. I'm not praising Trump. I just think he's less overtly anti. Whatever."

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4. Recent Oval Office Meeting: Trump vs. German Chancellor

Franken and Pakman discuss a recent Oval Office meeting between Trump and the German Chancellor, focusing on tensions over the Ukraine war. They analyze Trump's portrayal of civilian casualties and the Chancellor's defense of Ukraine's military actions.

Notable Quotes:

Al Franken (08:49): "Trump did one of these Oval Office meetings where he answered a lot of questions."

David Pakman (10:19): "It's just so strange."

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5. Analysis of the Travel Ban

The duo examines Trump's latest travel ban affecting citizens from 12 countries, critiquing its effectiveness and selective application, especially in light of the Boulder, Colorado terror attack. Pakman argues that the ban lacks coherence and fails to address the actual sources of terrorism threats.

Notable Quotes:

Al Franken (13:02): "How many thousand executive orders has he really signed?"

David Pakman (16:42): "This one seems a lot lower effort."

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6. The Big Beautiful Bill and Senate Dynamics

Franken shifts the discussion to the "Big Beautiful Bill," a significant legislative effort requiring only 50 votes due to reconciliation rules. They debate the bill's potential impact on healthcare coverage and national debt, with Pakman expressing optimism about its passage despite opposition from figures like Elon Musk and Rand Paul.

Notable Quote:

Al Franken (18:53): "It will lose coverage of 3.1 million under the ACA and 7.8 million under Medicaid."

David Pakman (19:24): "I do think it's ultimately going to pass in some form."

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7. Corruption and Authoritarian Tendencies in the Trump Administration

The conversation turns to the alleged corrupt practices within the Trump administration, including the misuse of funds and questionable initiatives like the "Executive Branch" membership and the "Gold Card" citizenship scheme. Pakman criticizes these actions as emblematic of authoritarian tendencies and blatant corruption.

Notable Quotes:

David Pakman (24:52): "There's Melania coin. It's like dollar sign, Melania in all caps."

Al Franken (26:38): "Don't you think of all the things we've brought up, it is the most legitimate, which is terrifying."

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8. Trade Policies and Tariffs Under Trump

Pakman critiques Trump's approach to tariffs and trade, advocating for strategic use of tariffs as tools rather than broad, indiscriminate measures. He contrasts this with Trump's "chainsaw" approach, suggesting a more nuanced strategy would better serve national security interests.

Notable Quotes:

David Pakman (29:05): "He's just using it as a scalpel rather than as a, whatever Trump is, you know, a chainsaw the way Trump's doing it."

Al Franken (30:14): "As a senator from Minnesota, I was for tariffs against Chinese steel."

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9. The Future of Higher Education and Economic Concerns

The discussion shifts to the sustainability of higher education costs and their alignment with wage growth. Pakman expresses uncertainty about the value of traditional liberal arts degrees in the future economic landscape, pondering alternative education pathways and their viability.

Notable Quote:

David Pakman (33:01): "The system is bound to break."

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10. The Role of Science and Expertise in Politics

Franken and Pakman tackle the diminishing trust in scientific expertise and the repercussions this has on policy-making, particularly in areas like climate change and public health. They emphasize the importance of maintaining robust scientific institutions to preserve national leadership and effectiveness.

Notable Quotes:

David Pakman (38:07): "We don't care about the concept of expertise, we don't care about the scientific method and science."

Al Franken (39:06): "Palantir. Have you done a rep on Palantir?"

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11. Democratic Strategy and Public Perception

In concluding their conversation, Pakman and Franken discuss the Democratic Party's challenges with unfavorable public opinion. Pakman advocates for building a positive vision that goes beyond opposing current policies, emphasizing the need for clear, actionable proposals that resonate with voters.

Notable Quotes:

David Pakman (40:56): "Some scaffolding has to be built with a positive vision."

Al Franken (41:17): "It was a wave that was a huge."

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12. Closing Remarks

Al Franken wraps up the episode by expressing appreciation for David Pakman's insights and contributions, highlighting the engaging and informative nature of their discussion.

Notable Quote:

Al Franken (42:36): "I really discovered you pretty recently and you're terrific."

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Conclusion:
In this episode, Al Franken and David Pakman engage in a comprehensive dialogue addressing pressing political issues, from Trump's controversial policies and actions to broader debates on trade, education, and the role of science in governance. Their conversation underscores the complexities of modern politics and the necessity for strategic, informed approaches to policy-making and party strategy.

Transcript

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[Al Franken]

Hey, everybody. We got a great one today. And this time, this time I mean it. David Pakman is my guest. If you don't know him, I'll tell you a little about him. He has a podcast that has over 3 million subscribers. Which reminds me, if you like what I do, please subscribe. It's easy to do. I think I just record this thing. Peter, how do people subscribe? It's really easy, actually. If you just go to YouTube.com alfrankenyoutube you can see all of our videos there and join in. Great. Sounds easy. How many subscribers do we have? Peter? Not three million. Oh, well, that makes my point. David Pakman is a very popular progressive political commentator and a great communicator, and you're going to love this conversation. But first, I want to talk about Trump and Harvard. Be my guest. Okay, yes, Harvard didn't adequately stop anti Semitic students and outsiders from being anti Semitic, and they've owned that. But this is just an excuse for Trump to go after them. Because if you ask me, Trump is more anti Semitic than Harvard. Now, let's look at some of the stuff Trump has said and done over the years. In a final ad in Trump's 2016 campaign, it featured images of three prominent Jews, Janet Yellen, George Soros, and Lloyd Blankfein, chair of Goldman Sachs, alongside criticisms of levers of power in Washington and global special interests. I remember that. That was bad. Okay, now about Charlottesville, he said you also had people that were very fine people on both sides, but one side was yelling, jews will not replace us. Yeah, but you know his daughter married a Jew. Doesn't matter. In 2022, Trump hosted a Mar a lago dinner with Kanye west, who, as you may remember, was under fire for anti Semitic statements, and Nick Fuentes, a prominent white supremacist, an anti Semite. Fuentes had promoted anti Semitic conspiracy theories against Jews and has denied the Holocaust. Okay, that's bad. But his grandchildren are Jewish. Okay, I don't care. This is what he said in 1989 when he was in the casino business. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day. Well, that's kind of a compliment. Jews are good at counting money. Okay, no, you're right. You're right. That's bad. That's bad. He's Donald Trump. That's my point. He's anti Semitic and racist. Exactly. Well, Al, I think you've made your point, so why don't we go to our conversation with David Pakman, and this claim that Harvard is anti Semitic is just a pretext. Yes, yes. It's a great one. You know, for a change. Hey, David, great to talk to you.

[David Pakman]

Thanks for having me.

[Al Franken]

Thanks for joining me. You have a huge online presence. I've listened to your podcasts and watched your videos, and they're great.

[David Pakman]

Thank you.

[Al Franken]

You're welcome. Tell my audience how you got where you are.

[David Pakman]

Well, you know, it involves a lot of trauma, a lot of. I mean, I don't know how deeply you want me to answer the question.

[Al Franken]

But as a practical matter, as deep as you're comfortable.

[David Pakman]

As a practical matter, shame played a role, and then boredom. Starting a community radio show in college, and then, you know, I pretty quickly realized radio is a horrible industry to be in because the next day, someone just walks in with, like, a better voice that the program director likes, and you're out of a job. So, you know, very quickly, I realized I want to build my own thing. I want to control the audience and own as much of the data as I can. And online was just happening, so it was a natural shift.

[Al Franken]

Cool. Now, I read you're originally from Argentina, and I guess you came here when you're five, right?

[David Pakman]

Yes. True.

[Al Franken]

And you're Jewish.

[David Pakman]

That's true.

[Al Franken]

Okay. My Jewish upbringing informed my views and my values. And how would you say that your background and upbringing have influenced your political views?

[David Pakman]

Well, Jews and Argentinians are two communities that inevitably, politics is what it is the thing to talk about. So there was, like, no chance that I was going to avoid it one way or the other. So I think just my interest in the world around us and in following what's happening here and, you know, other. Other countries that I spent time in, it was just ingrained at a deep psychological and sociological level.

[Al Franken]

Did you come directly to the US From Argentina? Yes. Yes. And to Northampton. Is that where you grew up or.

[David Pakman]

My family moved to Northampton. Yeah. My. My dad was working out in a place called Pittsfield, Massachusetts, which is not the most happening place. And so I think Northampton became a very nice alternative.

[Al Franken]

Right, so how far from Pittsfield was that?

[David Pakman]

One hour.

[Al Franken]

So he commuted to give you a nice community to live in.

[David Pakman]

That's right.

[Al Franken]

That's very nice of him. Did you watch the news with your family growing up?

[David Pakman]

Yes, very much so. I actually, I. I believe my earliest news memory is watching. You know, this could be apocryphal. It might be like, if you asked Wolf Blitzer, he'd be like, I actually didn't cover that story. But what I remember is actually watching Wolf Blitzer report on. On the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin is like, my earliest news memory. Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Oh, that's why he could vouch for you. Or not one way or the other anyway.

[David Pakman]

Right. He might be like, I was not covering that.

[Al Franken]

You know, Now I watched the news. My family, we. We watched the news while we ate dinner.

[David Pakman]

We didn't do that. We had a no TV with dinner rule in the House.

[Al Franken]

Ours was watching Cronkite. I'm older than you.

[David Pakman]

Yep.

[Al Franken]

My dad was a Republican, and until 1964, he switched because Barry Goldwater was the nominee. Goldwater voted against the Civil Rights Bill. Right. And I remember my dad in this was before 64 and 63, we were watching the news, watching Cronkite, and they had video of civil rights marchers being clubbed with billy clubs and have dogs sicced on them. And he just pointed to the TV and said, no Jew can be for that.

[David Pakman]

That all checks out.

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[David Pakman]

I mean, it's interesting because the. I've written about how there was another side in 63 or 64 who used the Civil Rights act and their opposition to the Civil Rights act to get them into what eventually became Reaganism and then supporting Gingrich's takeover in 94. And ultimately, like the pot of coal at the end of that rainbow is they ended up supporting Trump. Like, I actually think that what ended up being the MAGA movement was catalyzed by people who said, this Civil Rights act sounds very bad. It doesn't sound good to me.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, well, that was. Goldwater had a rabid but smaller following and got clobbered, thank God. And he wasn't that bad a guy, as it turned out.

[David Pakman]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

But you're. How old are you?

[David Pakman]

41. 41.

[Al Franken]

Okay. So if I talk about Barry Goldwater, you've read about him?

[David Pakman]

Well, yes, I was not alive at the time, but certainly through reading.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. Okay, let's get some to. Did you watch Trump just today?

[David Pakman]

No, I was taping my show. What did he do today?

[Al Franken]

He had the German Chancellor in the Oval Office. Trump did one of these Oval Office meetings where he answered a lot of questions. At one point, he and the German Chancellor got at loggerheads about the war in Ukraine. Trump was talking about seeing videos of the carnage, and he was talking about civilians with their heads blown off and their limbs scattered about. And he was clearly talking about, you know, about civilians. And the German Chancellor interrupted and said, that's only where the Russians sent missiles. That's that the Ukrainians don't hit civilians, only military targets. And so there was a little tension there, which I thought was instructive.

[David Pakman]

I'm interested in the tense Oval Office meetings that seem to happen regularly.

[Al Franken]

This was. This was pretty cordial, except that the German Chancellor didn't get a chance to answer many questions, but that was. That was the only point where it got at all testy. But, no, it wasn't. Like with the South African president or with Zelensky.

[David Pakman]

I kind of wondered, like, is Trump getting into these conflicts because he's going and just looking for them, or is this a side effect of the fact that he doesn't. He's kind of checked out from the job completely anyway. He doesn't really care. Or is like Stephen Miller saying, we're going to roll a clip when you call for it, Almost like you're doing a show. Oh, Mr. South African President, how do you re react to this clip that I'm putting on this tv? It's just so strange.

[Al Franken]

And that was a lie, what he showed. What was it exactly?

[David Pakman]

Well, I know there was once one scene from the Congo that was presented as being from South Africa.

[Al Franken]

Right. And it wasn't anything like it was. Trump said it was a grave site of white farmers slaughtered by black people in South Africa, but it was. It was the opposite. And it was a photo of graves in the Congo with all these crosses on the graves of black people who'd been killed by whites. Right. Yeah, yeah.

[David Pakman]

There's a video of the refugees arriving off of a plane in the United States.

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[David Pakman]

And, you know, like, I'm open to the possibility that maybe they are being discriminated against. Like, I'M not rejecting it, just at its face. If it's happening, I want to know about it. But that video was like people getting off of a Carnival cruise and they're just kind of tired because they're sick of the food that's been offered. It was hard to see that and say, these are refugees.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, they were a little chunky, a couple of the men. And shorts. Do they have shorts?

[David Pakman]

Yeah, a bunch of them had cargo shorts.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about something really serious. The Biden auto pen investigation.

[David Pakman]

Yes.

[Al Franken]

What are the chances that there's anything there? I mean, this is. This is an investigation, I guess they're doing. Is that right?

[David Pakman]

It's an investigation. Yeah. And the thing that I'm trying to really understand is, you know how sometimes Trump seems confused by the facts of something, like his whole political asylum versus insane asylum confusion that's been going on for three years.

[Al Franken]

That's not a conf. I think there is a. He. He stumbled on it. Like he, you know, build the wall. He stumbled on. I think one day he stumbled on. And they come from insane asylums and mental hospitals. Right. I mean, he has that litany, and it became true after the first time he said it. It's not true at all. I mean, it's not true.

[David Pakman]

No, it's not true. But analogize to this, I understand that some are making the claim that the auto pen was used surreptitiously to sign things Biden didn't even know about and wouldn't have even approved of.

[Al Franken]

Right.

[David Pakman]

But. But part of me thinks Trump may believe that the use of the auto pen at all is the scandal, which, of course, doesn't make any sense. But it's never totally clear with him what is. What is even being alleged?

[Al Franken]

Well, the auto pen is used, and it is used officially. You can officially sign something with the auto pen. I mean, how many thousand executive orders has he really signed? Because it takes him. How long does his signature take him?

[David Pakman]

It's very big and long. I don't know.

[Al Franken]

It's like about 20, 25 seconds. Yeah. It's a very funny thing. Okay, let's talk about the travel ban. The travel ban goes into effect on Monday. It bars travel to the United States by citizens of 12 countries. Afghanistan, Myanmar, Chad, the Republic of Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Haiti, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, and Yemen. And now here is an excerpt from Trump's explanation. The recent terror attack in Boulder, Colorado, has underscored the extreme dangers posed to our country by the entry of foreign nationals who are not properly vetted, as well as those who come here as temporary visitors and overstay their visas. We don't want them. So Egypt was not one of the countries banned and that's where the guy in Boulder was from, right?

[David Pakman]

Yes, that's exactly right. And this is similar to the first term travel ban where Saudi Arabia wasn't on the list, Egypt wasn't, and UAE wasn't, even though supposedly 9 11. Good. The net for 9 11. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's very weird. It's also strange because Trump in the video says the Boulder incident really got him thinking about this.

[Al Franken]

Right.

[David Pakman]

But last night, immediately you had people like Mark Wayne Mullen and others saying, that has nothing to do with this. And then Trump puts out a video going, that's why I'm doing this. And yet Egypt is not on the list. So it's a very unusual situation.

[Nicole Byer]

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[David Pakman]

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[Al Franken]

So, okay, so last year, the State department issued about 170,000 total visas to citizens of the 12 countries subject to the ban. I'm just wondering how this is different from the ban in 2017. Do you know what the distinction is?

[David Pakman]

Well, there are different countries on the list. And I think that the concept of extreme vetting is different this time. That was the big talking point. When Trump did this during his first term, there was going to be extreme vetting applied to people on the list. To people, people not on the list. I mean, really, quite frankly, I think the difference is that this one seems a lot lower effort. Where in 2017, Trump was still pretending that there was some primary reason to do this. Whereas this time to me it seems as though the tariffs are failing. The big beautiful bill is potentially stalled in the Senate and even his allies are saying this is a disaster. It strikes me as though this is a reflexive, take attention away from all of the other failings sort of behavior.

[Al Franken]

Okay. Now statistically, these countries that are on the list pose a threat. Specifically. Now I got this from msnbc, so I think. But they're quoting something I also saw somewhere else. Specifically from 1975 to the end of 2024, the annual chance of being murdered by a terrorist from a banned country. One of these banned countries was approximately 1 in 13.9 billion per year. And that's. So if you figure that's over 30 years and you divide 13.9 billion by 30, you get it's about, I guess about 400 million to one.

[David Pakman]

You've got to raise it to a negative exponent to make the number more salient. That's how unlikely it is.

[Al Franken]

Yes. Well, thank you.

[David Pakman]

You know, when I look at it, if the. There are things that are a lot less headline worthy that you could do to actually deal with what is the stated concern, which is people who want to do harm get here. Like we don't really do proper data sharing with the countries on the list. We're not doing really much in country vetting with consulates and embassies. You know, they talk about visa overstays, which I've said, you know, if you really want to deal with the issue of immigration rather than the wall, let's deal with visa overstays. I think that that's a completely legitimate issue. Just the bill doesn't do any of those things that would be the low hanging fruit without starting with bans that.

[Al Franken]

Could actually overstays were part of the problem that he did refer to at some point, but he didn't.

[David Pakman]

Oh no. He refers to it. Yeah. I just don't think that this, this ban solves visa overstays.

[Al Franken]

No. Let's talk about the big beautiful bill. It only needs 50 votes because it's reconciliation, which means that it's part of the rules of reconciliation is that it has to. It can't add to the debt and that's a rule that the Republicans will have to overrule the parliamentarian on. What is it? How much is this? About 2.4 trillion that it's going to add to the debt.

[David Pakman]

That's right.

[Al Franken]

It will lose coverage of 3.1 million. Will lose coverage under the ACA and 7.8 million will lose coverage under Medicaid.

[David Pakman]

Yes, indeed.

[Al Franken]

And that's a total of 10.9 million Americans losing health insurance. And we'll add 2.3 trillion to the debt over 10 years. Do you think Musk's problems with the bill have added to its likelihood that it won't pass, or do you think it doesn't make any difference?

[David Pakman]

I do think it's ultimately going to pass in some form.

[Al Franken]

Yep.

[David Pakman]

Because they just have no accomplishments right now, and they. They really need this. They really need this now. It's only 17 months till the midterms, and I do think it will pass in some form. Musk's opposition to me seems completely opportunistic. And based on the fact that the current status quo has been really bad for his businesses, he's now being sent with a black eye, figuratively and literally, back to run his companies, many of which are hemorrhaging money. I don't think that this is a principled opposition from Elon Musk. I think he's just now furious involvement. Yeah, I. Listen, I don't.

[Al Franken]

He's such a principal guy.

[David Pakman]

Right. It's shocking that this may not be a primarily principled thing. I do think that Musk's opposition opens the door for Senate Republicans to say things like what Rand Paul has been saying and Ron Johnson. And, you know, Susan Collins is very concerned.

[Al Franken]

Oh, well, she's clutching her pearls, I think.

[David Pakman]

Yes. But I do think they pass it in some form. You know, really funny, Rand Paul, who's been doing five interviews a day about how he's opposed to this ideologically.

[Al Franken]

Right.

[David Pakman]

When he was actually asked what would need to change for you to vote for it, he goes, just get rid of the debt ceiling limit increase. Which, of course means he actually would be willing to vote for something that increases the deficit.

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[David Pakman]

As long as they don't increase the debt ceiling. And then that just becomes a political football in six or 12 months, which is so pathetic.

[Al Franken]

Oh, he doesn't want them to raise the debt ceiling. Or he does want them to raise the debt ceiling.

[David Pakman]

The bill raises the debt ceiling. He's not for that. If that alone were to be removed, he'd be fine with the rest of the bill as it exists.

[Al Franken]

And when would we have to face the issue of the debt ceiling again?

[David Pakman]

I. I don't know, but it would just be, you know, it would become.

[Al Franken]

A political football again.

[David Pakman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Al Franken]

Well, that's interesting. Okay. Right now. Yeah. We got Rand Paul, Ron Johnson, Mike Lee and Rick Scott have said they're all against it and that's one too many. So I agree with you. It's going to pass.

[David Pakman]

Yeah. I talked to Senator Klobuchar about this because I see this opposition as completely contrived. It's the veneer of independence. And I think Rand Paul's comment proves it, which is you change this one relatively minor thing compared to the totality of what this does to the budget. And now he's in all of a sudden. And I see this as it creates a sort of polish that they're thinking independently when we all know that ultimately some version of this will likely pass. But these four now get to have a bunch of attention. Sort of the way for a while Joe Manchin was getting within the Democratic Party.

[Al Franken]

Right. And then they will make sure that there are only three of them.

[David Pakman]

That's right.

[Nicole Byer]

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[David Pakman]

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[Nicole Byer]

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[David Pakman]

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[Al Franken]

Let's move on to what about this is a big question. What about the Trump administration has surprised you the most?

[David Pakman]

I, I do think that the speed at which the authoritarianism has been pushing in, not the, not the scope of it, but the speed, is the only surprise. I'm also a little surprised that they're being as public with some of the ideas like the, yeah, we'll consider suspending habeas corpus. I, I would have expected that to be more of like an after the midterms thing, maybe, but I think the speed and the brazenness is really the only surprise. But the actual actions and ideas are exactly what I expected.

[Al Franken]

How about the brazenness of the corruption.

[David Pakman]

Yeah, well, yes, I think that, that, that also. I don't know if you saw this interview Don Jr did on CNBC about the crypto dinner whole thing.

[Al Franken]

No, I didn't. Sounds fascinating.

[David Pakman]

Andrew Ross Sorkin said, you know, you talk about transparency and independence and all this stuff, but, you know, the meme coin has just funneled endless gobs of money. And Don Jr goes, no, no, the thing with that is you don't really know who the money's coming from, so it's like, difficult practically to do the favors, which of course is crazy because they. They invited the top 200 meme coin holders.

[Al Franken]

You know exactly who that's coming.

[David Pakman]

So they clearly have a way of knowing who they are. Yeah. It was just so silly.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. So to me, it's, it's. It is the meme coin. It is. What other corrupt practices are they doing? I know I missed some.

[David Pakman]

Well, getting a supposedly free plane.

[Al Franken]

Oh, that's right.

[David Pakman]

That's a big one.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. That's only, what, 400 million, right. That's how much that was. So there's other coins, right? There's other crypto stuff that they're doing.

[David Pakman]

There was Melania coin. It's like dollar sign, Melania in all caps.

[Al Franken]

And the documentary they're doing on her, where she's getting. It's $40 million for a documentary.

[David Pakman]

And, you know, I think that's the total production package. Yeah. She probably gets 20. And then you take taxes out, it's only 10, you know.

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[David Pakman]

Depending on where her residency is. Maybe she gets dinged on state income tax. I don't know. It must be Florida, I guess.

[Al Franken]

It's Florida officially. Yeah. So how about the executive branch? You know. You know what that is? The executive branch?

[David Pakman]

Do I know what it is?

[Al Franken]

Well, no, no, not the executive branch like the legislative branch. And the. The executive branch is this club that Don Jr. Has created where you only have to pay $500,000 to join it.

[David Pakman]

Oh, yes, yes, yes. All the executive branch covered that. Yeah. I mean, it's a pretty good deal because compared to the Trump Gold Card or whatever, this seems like a much more affordable thing for those already in the country to get access.

[Al Franken]

The Gold card is. What is that? The dinner at Mar a Lago?

[David Pakman]

No, no, the Gold card is Trump's citizenship scheme, where Four years.

[Al Franken]

Oh, that's a.

[David Pakman]

Right.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, but that's. Does that go to him or does that go to our Treasury?

[David Pakman]

Goes to the government.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. So that's actually the most legitimate thing we've talked about here.

[David Pakman]

Don't you think, in a sense, of all of the things we've brought up in the last 10 minutes, it is the most legitimate, which is terrifying. Terrifying.

[Al Franken]

Well, it's attracting rich people to this country. It's, it's. I've heard of plans like this.

[David Pakman]

There are things like it, they're way cheaper. But the thing is, Trump's estimate of the number of people that might avail themselves of it was very funny because I just did a little research into like, okay, if you're gonna spend 5 million, what do you need to have? You probably need at least 10 if you get, you know, to spend half of what you have. So how many people are there currently not living in the United States with liquid assets of $10 million? Like, it's a relatively small number. So when Besant said, we think we might get 100,000 people to do this, really completely not in line with the number of rich people in this planet.

[Al Franken]

I could see a thousand or 100, but not 100,000.

[David Pakman]

Even much cheaper. Like, I've looked into this a little bit just for self preservation reasons. How do you move to different countries and get permanent residency? A lot of these programs.

[Al Franken]

Oh yeah, let's talk about that. You're thinking of.

[David Pakman]

Yeah, I'm thinking a little long term. The Portugal golden visa, or like Spain has a thing where if I can prove ancestry to Argentina, which I can, I could in two years live legally in Spain. All of these, they're like a fraction of the cost.

[Al Franken]

Right.

[David Pakman]

And they still, at the most they get, you know, 10,000 people who do it, 8,000 people, and it's pennies on the dollar compared to what Trump's offering.

[Al Franken]

Okay, that makes sense. So, yeah, I heard that, that you're investigating what it would take to go to another country.

[David Pakman]

I could just fly to Argentina, problem solved. But then I have a new series of problems.

[Al Franken]

Which are?

[David Pakman]

Well, the economic and political instability of Argentina.

[Al Franken]

Yes. Okay, so where else are you investigating?

[David Pakman]

Western Europe.

[Al Franken]

Uh huh. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, that'd be nice.

[David Pakman]

Quality of life in Spain is really very high.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. Oh yeah, well, it's high in France too. It's, it's.

[David Pakman]

Yes.

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[David Pakman]

My Spanish is better than my French though.

[Al Franken]

So did you keep your Spanish from, from your parents?

[David Pakman]

Yeah, yeah, we always. And I, with my daughter, I speak only Spanish.

[Al Franken]

Oh, really? So let's talk about trade. How do you think the President has been handling tariffs and trade?

[David Pakman]

Not particularly well. Not particularly well.

[Al Franken]

You talked to China Xi today?

[David Pakman]

They had a 90 minute phone call.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, China Seems to be in the, in the best seat there.

[David Pakman]

And yeah, we, we were told 90 deals in 90 days and everybody was going to come crying, begging, we just need to do this deal. And China went and found a bunch of other bilateral trade agreements and nobody's really like beating Trump's door down. And I've said before, like, if I just zoom out and talk about trade, I'm open to using tariffs as a tool. Like for example, looking at semiconductor manufacture in Taiwan and saying that's a, that's a political risk. If China invades and says you're not sending any more semiconductors to the U.S. that's a real national security problem. So I would favor an on ramp of tariffs on Taiwanese semiconductors over six to eight years paired with some incentive to do it domestically. But that's like using it as a scalpel rather than as a, whatever Trump is, you know, a chainsaw the way Trump's doing it.

[Al Franken]

As a senator from Minnesota, I was for tariffs against Chinese steel because we have iron ore in Minnesota and we like domestic production of steel. So I'm sure that the up in northern Minnesota, they're very happy about Trump's latest steel tariffs.

[David Pakman]

So how did that happen? Like, so would, did you just know that or would people kind of come to you and go, senator, you know, we want to talk to you about you taking a particular position on this. Like, were you lobbied on that?

[Al Franken]

I didn't have to be, but I knew it. I mean I, the Iron Range in northern Minnesota is just a big source of, of iron ore for the steel industry and it's a huge business in, in Minnesota. So I didn't have to know it, but I did meet with the, they're on the Iron Range. I met with the Rangers all the time. So I was for tariffs.

[David Pakman]

Are the, are these lobbyists, are they really slick in the way that they engage with panic in terms of like trying to get you to commit some to something right then and there during the meeting, or like, are they, are they extremely like high EQ types who know how to know sort of schmooze?

[Al Franken]

That's a really good question. It depends on the lobbyist. And a lot of the people I met with weren't lobbyists, but they were actually just people from the Iron Range. For example, on, on iron ore. So those were the guys. And I remember, I think one of my first meetings with was the electric co ops in the state and when I first got in the Senate, they were all about coal, just burning coal for electricity. And I Told them I was against that. I remember that. And they were being shocked that I would be honest with them. But I said, I believe there's global warming. I said, how many here believe there's global warming? It must have been 20 or 30 of them in my office and it was crowded and no one believed in global warming. And every year they would come and visit, every year I'd ask them and every year more and more until, you know, toward the end of my time there, they were all, yeah, there's global warming.

[David Pakman]

That's interesting.

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[David Pakman]

Was that the type of meeting where your staff would kind of go, listen, we got to bring 30 of these people in whether you want to or not?

[Al Franken]

No, I would love those meetings.

[David Pakman]

You did.

[Al Franken]

Okay. Yeah, no, I love those guys. And mainly guys, these are, these are people who were head of their electric co op and it was totally voluntary.

[David Pakman]

Got it.

[Al Franken]

So these were great guys who were service oriented toward their community. Harvard, a lot of anti Semitism there.

[David Pakman]

Yeah. I mean, listen, my view on the Harvard thing is, so I've got a three year old daughter, right. So 15 years from now in theory she might go to college.

[Al Franken]

Right.

[David Pakman]

I'm saving as if she's going to go to college.

[Al Franken]

Yes.

[David Pakman]

I've got the 529 account, but if I'm honest, I don't really know what the higher education environment is going to be. 15 years in a few ways. Number one, if costs just keep going up the way they have been, it'll be 220 grand a year for a lot of these schools.

[Al Franken]

Right.

[David Pakman]

Will that even make sense compared to the wages when you. I don't know, I'm not sure.

[Al Franken]

Well, if depending on what your wages are, I mean, Harvard has so much money in their trust fund they can get full scholarships to anybody.

[David Pakman]

That's right.

[Al Franken]

Basically.

[David Pakman]

That's right.

[Al Franken]

So Harvard is like an exception.

[David Pakman]

I guess the point I'm going to is I just don't know bigger picture. For jobs that don't require specific licensing and education, like lawyers and doctors and some others, I'm kind of ambivalent as to whether the traditional liberal arts type degree is going to have the same cachet when she gets to college age through due to a combination of reasons including the relative wage stagnation compared to the cost versus just jumping into something four years earlier and having four years of work experience when you would be graduating. I just don't know. It seems like the system is bound to break.

[Al Franken]

It sounds like you're approaching it as an economic problem as Opposed to four years of college is a great thing for anybody. Anyway, I was just thinking about how anti Semitic Trump is and how do you think this all is?

[David Pakman]

Or a little.

[Al Franken]

It's quite a bit. Okay. This is from an article in the New York Times. This is Larry Summers. He says it's hard to see this as anything other than pretextual, said Warren Summers, a former president of Harvard who has accused his university of being slow to denounce anti Semitism. There are valid grounds for challenging Harvard's approach, he added, but it's hard to imagine a less credible challenger than President Trump. He noted that three top Trump officials, J.D. vance, Marco Rubio and Elon Musk, then embrace Alternative for Germany or AfD, the far right party classified by the country's intelligence service last month as an extremist organization for trivializing the Holocaust and reviving Nazi slogans. And he argued that Mr. Trump's order barring international students from Harvard would hurt Israeli students more than anything Harvard has done. So it just, I don't know, rubs me the wrong way.

[David Pakman]

Well, it rubs me the wrong way, too. You know, I think with Trump, I used to get questions or talk to others about where do you think Trump personally is? Like, for example, on lgbt. And my instinct was I don't think the guy really cares about it very much. I think when he became political, he realized that there was a lot of cachet in talking about the transport stuff or, you know, this sort of thing. But I never got the sense that Trump was genuinely, for example, homophobic. He probably had some stereotypes he believed maybe, or that sort of thing. But I don't know with, with Jewish folks. I think that in the way that, you know, you hear, oh, Saudi Arabia is becoming much less anti Semitic now. They're doing deals with Jared Kushner and stuff. I think it's like the philo Semitism of like, we think these Jews are pretty clever and we want to like get in business with them. I think that that's sort of Trump's kind of thing. And you know, Trump's daughter converted to Judaism, his son in law is Jewish. So I think for Trump, it's less about the personal, but it's more that he's just in these orbits where you trade in these kinds of beliefs and they're there. It's crazy that I'm saying this. I'm not praising Trump. I just think he's less overtly anti. Whatever.

[Al Franken]

Right.

[David Pakman]

And more that he' inextricably linked with these political circles that traffic in this Stuff.

[Al Franken]

I hear you. I think he's, he's racist and I think he was anti Semitic until.

[David Pakman]

Oh, okay. Until his daughter.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, that's what I think. But, you know, that's not. I'm not necessarily. Right. Trump wants to redirect the $3 billion. I'm, I'm, I'm stuck on this Harvard thing. He wants to redirect 3 billion in Harvard research grants to U. S. Trade schools. Trade schools are great things.

[David Pakman]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

I believe in investing in, in trade schools.

[David Pakman]

Me too.

[Al Franken]

But what happens when we disinvest in science in this country?

[David Pakman]

Right. That's the core. That's the cultural issue that we're now dealing with. And there was this meteorologist in Florida yesterday who said our hurricane forecasting is going to be hampered by the cuts to national weather Service and NOAA.

[Al Franken]

Right.

[David Pakman]

And then you had this Dr. Marty McCary. I don't know if you've come across this guy.

[Al Franken]

I've heard. Where did I hear his name?

[David Pakman]

He stood up there with RFK during the big triumphant announcement about no more Covid shots for pregnant women.

[Al Franken]

Okay.

[David Pakman]

And he was interviewed over the weekend by Margaret Brennan, and in the same sentence, he said, we can't trust CDC recommendations, but also trust what I'm telling you because it's coming from the cdc. And Margaret Brennan point, pointed that out. And it's just a total, kind of. Just like we don't care about the concept of expertise, we don't care about the scientific method and science. And this stuff has real, real consequences.

[Al Franken]

And if we start going after our scientists and they're going to go elsewhere.

[David Pakman]

Yes.

[Al Franken]

And they're going to go to China and they're going to go to Europe. And so we can't back off our science. That's one of our, one of the things that's made our country the leading country in the world. Palantir. Have you done a rep on Palantir?

[David Pakman]

Yeah. So Palantir is Peter Thiel's company.

[Al Franken]

Right.

[David Pakman]

Peter Thiel, German guy, New Zealand citizen, did also get American citizenship.

[Al Franken]

We'll go to New Zealand if things go south.

[David Pakman]

Exactly, exactly. The idea is that the Trump administration wants to contract with Peter Thiel's company to come up with a citizenship database that will kind of put pull in social media activity, immigration status, if relevant, jobs, addresses, you know, just all like a centralized database. This is what 20th century authoritarians would have loved if the technology was there to support it, but it just wasn't. It's very difficult to see this as being a driver of the efficiency that always is just out of reach. But we're almost there. And Elon couldn't quite get us there, but he was close. This seems to only be plausible as a nefarious tool. And even the Nick Fuentes who you mentioned, even he is saying this is a bridge too far.

[Al Franken]

Yes, I saw that. I saw that. And I went, what a guy.

[David Pakman]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. But if Biden was doing it, would you be so suspicious?

[David Pakman]

Biden would never do it. I hate to sound like John. You remember when John, you was asked, could Bush order someone buried alive if he wanted? And John, you was like, I know George Bush. He would never do that. And I feel similar, but it's really difficult to imagine a Biden even doing this. But of course, I would be against it no matter who did it.

[Al Franken]

Okay, well, that's. That's fair of you. What do you believe Democrats should do? Aha. Sorry.

[David Pakman]

In general.

[Al Franken]

In general.

[David Pakman]

Okay.

[Al Franken]

Because we're what? I think Democrats have a 58.3% unfavorable view among Americans. The Republican Party isn't doing much better. They have a 52.6 on favorable.

[David Pakman]

Right. So what Democrats can't do, and I'm worried I'm already seeing it, is just assume that negative partisanship will be a wave that they can ride to victory in 26 and possibly 28. It did work in 2020. So it's not crazy to say sometimes just relying on negative partisanship can work. It did work in 2020, but.

[Al Franken]

And in 2018, it was. It was all about health care, right?

[David Pakman]

That's right.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. And that was a wave that was a huge.

[David Pakman]

So I think some kind of scaffolding needs to be built here where, like on crime and immigration, where many voters said they just didn't think Kamala Harris was even taking those issues seriously, that she was dismissive of concerns and that. That sort of thing. Some scaffolding has to be built with a positive vision. And by positive, I don't mean like ginger Snaps and rainbows positive. I just mean positive as in stuff we are for rather than simply we're not as bad, slash, better than what's in power right now. Like, that just doesn't. Doesn't seem good enough. And I've had everybody from senators to governors, etc. On over the last month and month and a half, and everybody's really good at identifying the problems. But when I get to. Okay, so, like, how do you talk to voters? What do you propose? What do you offer? I hear about, oh, we've got lawsuits going right now. I don't know that that is hugely activating and passion inducing thing. So I'm not sure. I'm worried that there's not an answer to that right now.

[Al Franken]

I am too. Well, thanks.

[David Pakman]

Thank you.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, it was good talking to you.

[David Pakman]

Likewise.

[Al Franken]

I enjoy. I really discovered you pretty recently and you're terrific.

[David Pakman]

I so appreciate it. Big fan and so glad to be on with you.

[Al Franken]

Well, I hope you enjoyed listening. That beautiful music is by Leo Kotke, the great Leo Konke. I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next week.