How To Say Less and Mean More with Communication Expert Jefferson Fisher

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Amy Porterfield Show – "How To Say Less and Mean More with Communication Expert Jefferson Fisher"

Release Date: March 11, 2025

In this enlightening episode of The Amy Porterfield Show, host Amy Porterfield engages in a deep conversation with Jefferson Fisher, a Texas board-certified personal injury attorney and renowned communication expert. Jefferson shares his journey from a litigation partner to a social media sensation with over 5 million daily followers, emphasizing the transformative power of effective communication in both personal and professional realms.

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1. Embracing Conciseness: Saying Less to Mean More

The episode kicks off with a profound discussion on the art of concise communication. Jefferson introduces the concept that "the more you say, the less you mean" (05:47). He explains how verbosity can dilute the strength of a message, making it appear less genuine. By being succinct, communicators can reduce the chances of being misunderstood and maintain greater control over their message.

Notable Quote:

Jefferson Fisher [05:47]: "The shorter your words, the more power and control that you're always going to hold, because they don't have anything to grab onto and misconstrue."

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2. Jefferson's Journey: From Litigation to Communication Guru

Jefferson recounts his transition from a partner at a large defense firm to establishing his own law practice. Facing initial challenges in building his brand, he pivoted to sharing communication tips on social media directly from his car, a strategy that rapidly grew his audience. His authenticity and practical advice resonated with millions, establishing him as a leading voice in effective communication.

Notable Quote:

Jefferson Fisher [07:29]: "I started to go, well, I feel like we're young, ish. I need to be on social media. So I started talking about my law firm, and that just didn't feel good... I am just going to sit in my truck and get my phone out and tell people how to communicate."

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3. Building Consistent Content: The Power of Real-Time Sharing

Jefferson emphasizes the importance of consistency in content creation. By recording videos in real-time without batching, he maintains authenticity and immediacy, which his audience greatly appreciates. This approach not only builds trust but also ensures that the content remains relevant and engaging.

Notable Quote:

Jefferson Fisher [11:07]: "I just get my phone, I sit in my car, and as I leave the office, I think, what do I want to share with them... I break it up into three steps. Anybody can do this."

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4. Gender Differences in Communication

The conversation delves into how men and women typically communicate differently. Jefferson discusses how men often focus on facts and solutions, while women prioritize understanding emotions and seeking connection. Recognizing these differences is crucial for fostering effective communication in both personal relationships and workplace dynamics.

Notable Quote:

Jefferson Fisher [16:57]: "From the beginning of time, I feel like there's always differences in anybody and certainly in communication between men and women."

Further elaboration [19:13]: "For the guy, my advice would be listen more than you speak... Women have extremely far and away more emotional intelligence than men."*

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5. Navigating Difficult Conversations in Teams

Amy poses scenarios related to managing team communications, such as addressing defensiveness or instances where team members shut down during important discussions. Jefferson provides actionable strategies, emphasizing the importance of acknowledging emotions, giving space, and framing conversations to align with mutual goals.

Notable Quote:

Jefferson Fisher [24:12]: "When you feel it, that's when you need to say it. So when you feel somebody starting to shut down, it is a thousand percent okay to say, I'm feeling like you're shutting down on me."

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6. Handling Emotional Moments: The Role of Tears in Communication

The episode touches on the sensitive topic of emotions during conversations. Jefferson advises against apologizing for tears, suggesting instead to label them to provide context without diminishing their significance. This approach helps maintain control and composure during emotionally charged discussions.

Notable Quote:

Jefferson Fisher [28:16]: "Don't ever apologize for starting to cry in an argument... Instead, label those tears. These are tears that care. These are tired tears."

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7. The Power of the Pause: Enhancing Confidence in Communication

One of the standout topics is the strategic use of pauses in conversation. Jefferson explains how pausing before responding allows for thoughtful engagement, signaling confidence and control. This technique is especially beneficial for those who are more emotional, as it provides additional moments to process and respond effectively.

Notable Quote:

Jefferson Fisher [45:08]: "The power of the pause is probably the most effective tool that you can use in communication, period."

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8. Building Confidence Through Assertiveness

Jefferson highlights that confidence stems from assertive communication. By eliminating unnecessary apologies and minimizing filler words, individuals can project a more confident and credible presence. This assertiveness not only boosts personal confidence but also reinforces clear and direct communication.

Notable Quote:

Jefferson Fisher [49:22]: "Confidence is what you get at the end of the conversation. And then with that feeling, you're able to say more assertive things."

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9. Intentional and Attentive Communication

Towards the end of the episode, Jefferson underscores the importance of being intentional and attentive in communication. Observing not just oneself but also the other party enhances understanding and fosters meaningful dialogues. This mindful approach facilitates smoother interactions and more effective outcomes.

Notable Quote:

Jefferson Fisher [54:52]: "We tend to observe ourselves more than we observe the other person. The magic happens when you get really curious about the other person."

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10. Jefferson’s Book: "The Next Conversation. Argue Less, Talk More"

Jefferson introduces his first book, "The Next Conversation. Argue Less, Talk More", which is designed to guide individuals through improving their communication skills. The book includes bonus materials such as PDF guides for family and workplace scenarios, and a daily conversation journal script to aid in planning difficult conversations.

Notable Quote:

Jefferson Fisher [56:41]: "I wrote this book to the people who are struggling to connect... It's for the people that need to balance how they communicate, to stand their ground, but also speak with kindness and grace."

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Conclusion

In this episode, Jefferson Fisher provides a wealth of practical advice on enhancing communication skills. From the significance of saying less to the strategic use of pauses, his insights are designed to empower listeners to communicate more effectively in all areas of life. His emphasis on intentionality, attentiveness, and assertiveness offers a roadmap for anyone looking to build stronger, more confident communication habits.

For those interested in delving deeper, Jefferson's book "The Next Conversation. Argue Less, Talk More" is available for purchase, complete with valuable bonus materials to further support effective communication strategies.

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Additional Resources:

• Book Purchase & Bonuses: Visit jeffersonfisher.com/book or follow Jefferson Fisher on Instagram, Facebook, or TikTok for more information and to access bonus content.

Transcript

[Amy Porterfield]

Hey, there. Welcome to the Amy Porterfield Show.

[Jefferson Fisher]

People who are confident know they can choose not to say anything if they don't wish. Confidence is quiet. Insecurities are loud. So the power of the pause is the quickest way to show confidence.

[Amy Porterfield]

Communication is a funny thing. When it's going well, when the conversation is flowing, when the other person gets you and you get them and it's just going so well, you do not think about communication. However, if that conversation goes sideways, if things are not going as you had hoped, the other person gets defensive. You shut down. You say something you wish you didn't say. I know you are thinking about communication, and it usually goes something like this, why did I say that? Or I wish I knew what to say. When they said this, I wanted a really good comeback and I didn't know what to say, or how do I ensure next time that they don't shut down? Lots of questions come up when a conversation goes sideways, and so if you have ever had that feeling, you are not alone. I talked about this publicly already, but my husband, Hobie and I, we are working with relationship coach. And the number one reason why we needed to start working with this coach earlier this year is because our communication was breaking down. Every time I said something, he heard something different. Every time he said something, I was defensive, and we literally could not have a really healthy conversation, which blew our minds because we've been married a long time and we've always had great communication. But things were changing in Hobie's life, and I didn't know how to deal with it, and he needed me in a certain way and he didn't know how to communicate it. So we were in a very bad place, and we both agreed, let's work with the coach. And this coach has been incredibly valuable for us. It's been over six months now, and it's the best thing we've ever done, and we're doing great. But there was this one thing that she shared that I feel like was worth having every penny we've given her. And it's a communication tip that's not profound. It's like you've heard it before, but sometimes we need to hear it many times before we actually apply it. And it kind of broke things open for us. So here's what she taught me. When Hobie and I are having a conversation and we're frustrated, it's not going as planned, I need to pause, and I need to ask Hobie, what did you just hear me say? What did you just hear me Say, and what's wild is that nine times out of ten, Hobie will repeat, I'm using air quotes because it's nothing like I thought what I said. He'll repeat back to me what he heard. And again, it's nothing like what I thought I said or what my intention was. And the minute I realize we're on a different page and he heard something wildly different, we can get on the same page and we can talk about it. I have more compassion, more patience, like, oh, my gosh, if you thought I said that, of course you're feeling this way. So that one little tip has changed so much for us. And so if you've had those situations where you thought, I wish I knew what to say in this situation. I'm having a hard conversation, I don't even know how to start it, or what do I do when someone's disrespectful to me in a conversation or they keep interrupting me, or, or they get defensive, or I get defensive, what do I do? If you've ever had any of those thoughts, whether it be business or personal, you are going to love my guest. His name is Jefferson Fisher and he is a Texas board certified personal injury attorney. Now you might be saying, amy, why the heck are you bringing a personal injury attorney on your marketing podcast? Well, I'm so glad you asked, because Jefferson is unique. And this is why, in 2022, he began recording videos from his car. I mean, seatbelt on, front seat, he's recording videos and he's just sharing his tips and insights around how to be a better communicator. And by sharing these tips, over 5 million people watch him every single day on social media. 5 million people. And he has changed lives with his tips and his strategies and really has this incredible fan base that kind of hangs on every word he says. Now, he is definitely a communication expert. It's his secret superpower. But luckily he doesn't keep it a secret because he just wrote a book called the Next Conversation. Argue less, Talk More. And his book is out right now. So I think you're going to fall in love with Jefferson and all that he's sharing and you're going to want to get his book. But just know if you ever struggle with any kind of communication, and we all do, this is the episode for you. So let's go ahead and dive in. One of my most favorite videos that you do, and I watch them all, but one of my most favorite videos is when you were talking about the fact that you can sit a lot by saying less. And I want to just start there. What is the benefit of saying less? I mean, you. You talk about communication. So I'm thinking lots of words, and we need a lot of words in these conversations. But the fact that you could say a lot by saying less, I'm intrigued. So what's the benefit? Why does it work?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, it starts with the premise that the more you say, the less you mean. For example, if. If I. You ask me to tell you the truth about something, or I'm explaining my knowledge about something, the more I have to say about usually suggests, the less I know you're just talking to talk. So if I'm going to tell you the truth, and you go, I need you to tell me the truth, and I have to like, okay, I need to explain this whole story. The more it sounds like a lie. So often you have to be extremely succinct when it comes to communicating. It also benefits you and that it keeps people from misunderstanding you. It gives them less to come back with. The shorter your words, the more power and control that you're always going to hold, because they don't have anything to grab onto and misconstrue. So you might experience it with. Maybe somebody in the audience has texted that long paragraph to somebody in an argument. They're very upset about it. You send it, and you're like, oh, I just sent them. This is the best 18 sentences I've ever sent to somebody. And then they find out that the person who responds, they only responded to one, maybe part of your sentence right in the middle, and ignored everything else. You know, it's because you were not concise enough to where they were able to deflect and go to different issues. So usually the shorter the words, the more powerful the message.

[Amy Porterfield]

Okay, we're probably going to have to come back to that one. It's so valuable for, I think, every listener right now. But some of my listeners, Jefferson, they don't know you yet. And so, trial lawyer, you own a law firm now. You're one of the biggest voices in communication. So you got to take us back. How the heck did this even start?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, nobody's more surprised than me. This started a little over two years ago when I left a big defense firm, big litigation firm, as a partner there, and decided I wanted to have my own firm. I wanted to build my own thing. And I mean, you get that. And so when I left on my own, I didn't have an office. I only had my laptop. And I went from coffee shop to Coffee shop. Well, now we have two locations and a wonderful law firm. But at the time, I didn't really have anything. And so I started to go, well, I feel like we're young, ish. I need to be on social media. So I started talking about my law firm, and that just didn't feel good. So I then thought, what's one thing that I can share that I feel like I know more than anybody in my world and that gives real value for people? Like, what's I had this moment of? What's my purpose? Why. Why am I here? What am I leaving for my kids? Do they want to look at my social media and see, I only talked about me being an attorney. And so I sucked it up and said, well, I don't have the best lighting, the best camera. I didn't have any of what I'm in right now. And I'm just going to sit in my truck and get my phone out and tell people how to communicate. So I started with how to Argue Like a Lawyer, Part one. And sure enough, without me even thinking, it started to grow. I went from barely 800 followers, which were all friends, by the way, which that was even more intimidating when it's people, you know, who you're like, oh, they're going to hate me. And it just started to grow in there, and I got more questions and more people asking how I can help. And I make almost daily content from my car on how to communicate so that I can help their next conversation.

[Amy Porterfield]

Okay, so what's fun about being friends with Jefferson? Like, we're real friends in real life. And I sat next to him for two days at a Mastermind, and so I learned a lot about him. Like, I hope you're okay with me saying this, but do not call Jefferson Jeff. Like, don't do it. So there was this woman on stage, wonderful woman, and she was presenting, and she kept saying Jeff because she was using Jefferson as an example. I literally felt your heat coming off your body. Like, that is not your name.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, my mom was always, if I wanted to name me Jeff, I would have named you Jeff.

[Amy Porterfield]

And Jefferson is special. I like that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So, yeah, I mean, when I was in second grade, we had this where you'd have a contest or who could write their name the fastest. Like, I never won. It was always a very long name to write. But as I grew older, I love that I don't know how I could ever be anything else. And I'm certainly, for goodness sake, I'm no Jeff. I can tell you that.

[Amy Porterfield]

So you all meet him when he's signing books out in the world, because he's going to be everywhere. You just make sure you call him Jefferson. That is very, very important there. But I was going to say, what's fun about being your friend is that I watch your videos. And I remember just recently, I wanted to know, do you record those in real time? Because you were talking about something about being impatient. And you know me, I like to know it all. So I sent him a text, and I'm like, are you recording these on the same day? And you said, yes. Then I told them, like, why are you impatient? What's going on over there? Tell me everything. The fact that you do it in the same day is pretty cool. Do you feel stressed with that? And the reason I ask is the women that are listening, men and women that are listening, they're growing their social media, they're growing their online businesses. So before we get into more communication, which I can't wait, this consistency, how did you stay consistent? Also, it doesn't take you just two minutes, right? Are we doing extra takes? I know you're not really editing. Can you kind of talk how you got into that habit?

[Jefferson Fisher]

So I grew from less than 800 followers to over 10 million followers doing the exact same thing that I do. And anybody listening, anybody tuning in can do the exact same thing. I just get my phone, I sit in my car, and as I leave the office, I think, what do I want to share with them? What's something that happened in my day? What's something that maybe somebody in a comment has asked? I'm like, that's a good question. And I then think of it. I break it up into three steps. Anybody can do this. The 1, 2, 3. That's easy. I would encourage you to try it. And then you can feel out if that's the format for you or not. But you always want to have. This is what I've learned. Mind you, what I'm saying right now are things that I have learned. I had. I Googled how to make a reel. I googled why do my videos have zero views? All right, So I don't want you thinking like, I already had this knowledge beforehand at zero. What you want to do is make sure at the very outset you have a very clear title of exactly what you're going to give them. What's the value? And then I break it into one through three. And then I have a call of action, which was try that and follow me. That started for me Googling. What's a good call to action. And I. That's how that happened. I make my videos that day because I am not very good, apparently, at batching anything.

[Amy Porterfield]

It's a big topic. Jefferson, we talk about batching a lot over here.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Now I know that. Here's the thing, the smart people batch. You batch people that are better than me batch. I have not had the bandwidth to go, okay, I'm going to set aside a whole day or half a day for me to just go, okay, what's a good question? To make these videos. I don't have a video team. Nobody's filming me. It is just me in my car. But that's part of the authenticity. You don't have to have somebody come in, a videographer, and have something choreographed with trendy music. You don't have to do that. It is the value that you're giving them right in that moment because they want that realness. They. They like that. So don't feel like you have to polish because I. I think it honestly works against you sometimes if it's, if it's too polished, it can be a turn off. I. It takes me about from beginning to end, about 45 minutes, sometimes an hour. It in the longest, it's gotten shorter because finally, Instagram, I make my videos all within Instagram, right within the app. No, I don't use some cap cut, different app. It's all within Instagram. And they. Instagram finally fixed their captions because their captions were terrible and I'd have to go in and edit words and it just never looked good. I was not happy with it. It had this black box that would flip. Well, now they have it to where it kind of goes along as you talk, and that's much better. So usually the hardest part was just the captions. I do have different takes, and it's just a process of me doing it in that moment. So I might like how I said something and go, oh, I like how I just said that. I might ramble even for the first minute of talking out loud in my car, of, okay, I'm thinking of one person. That's important for anybody listening. Think of one person. Don't think of all the other people you're posting to. Just think of one. Because that's really the only FaceTime you're going to have somebody who's going to engage with your content. You're talking to just one person, not a crowd. And when that happens, I like to shorten everything so you don't want to have very long sentences. You want to shorten it and every second is precious. So I will retweak my title. Instead of how to handle difficult people, I might even shorten that even or people make this mistake a lot, and I know you see this, Amy, is when somebody says they begin their video with I get this question all the time, how do you do X, Y and Z? And it's like first of all, nobody's asked you that. Most likely you're just wanting to sound like that. Second of all, you've wasted seven seconds. It's really because you feel self conscious that you're not good enough on your own to just share this advice. You need to make them feel like you're an expert and that you, you have enough worth to now I can share it and I have credibility because I told you other people have asked me for it. So I just eliminate that. They're going to see that and feel that based on how you communicate.

[Amy Porterfield]

I love that you shared that because I think people would be surprised to know you don't batch that you do it the same day and you think about it when you're driving home. Like I love that you have made it so simple and so easy in terms of someone else adopting that strategy. So I wanted you to share that because I thought that was fascinating.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, thank you. Yeah. And the only other thing I'd add is that if you do bash, it's not a problem. I want you feeling like there's something wrong with that. It's. I just haven't been able to work that in my life. And on the flip side of it is if I'm not able to get a video out that day, I just don't get a video video out that day. Like the people that are going to follow you will follow you and the ones that are unfollow you. So. So what? It's, it's just the people that want to support you will be there. So don't feel like because you back something is wrong. That's just what works for my life. So the message is do what's easiest and best for you and your world.

[Amy Porterfield]

Yes. But just do it. Your consistency is admirable. So I feel like that has been part of your success. The fact that we know you're always showing up for us. So that's a big deal. Okay, so let's talk about communication. I want to first talk about men and women. So do you think Jefferson, Jefferson being the communication expert, do you think men and women communicate differently?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, you put me on the Spot. The answer is yes, of course there is. From the beginning of time, I feel like there's. There's always differences in anybody and certainly in communication between men and women. These are more stereotypes, very much. This is the default what you consider masculine. This is the default of what you might consider feminine. Lots of different exceptions between all of that. But yes, I think that generally there are differences. Main differences being where the more male centric men like to say, what are the facts and what's the future? Okay, what's happening next? Whereas the more feminine side says, I'm wanting to feel what's going on and I want to understand the basis of it. And so there is a. Where men might say, I want to get straight to the point. Let's get to the facts. Women want to understand the why a whole lot more so they. They like to have. It's doesn't mean they're emotional, just means they're much more in tune with emotions. Women have extremely far and away more emotional intelligence than men. Y'all. Y'all pick up on things that we're just completely oblivious to. I'm just. It is. But at the same time, you know, we have. Men have a nothing box. My brain can just go into a zone where I. It's just nothing. I don't have to go lucky. Whereas it's definitely true for y'all, where you just. You're an open browser that has 20 different tabs and they're all important, like, right in that time. Like for. For my wife, she's. She could be thinking about something that is, to me, minuscule. Maybe something about, like, what. What are we going to do in the backyard for something and that will weigh on her or something with the family just as much as her day job, also as an attorney. And like, they. It never stops. Whereas for me, my communication, I can categorize things and put them in boxes, so to speak. So there's a big difference too, of just how we want to communicate certain things.

[Amy Porterfield]

So tell me this. If you are in a romantic relationship with someone and there's male, female, what advice would you give to the man to communicate better with the woman? And what advice would you give to the woman to communicate better with the man, knowing there's usually these differences, not always, but it happens a lot. Like what you just said, I 100% relate to the woman you talked about. So I think there's a lot of other people that would agree.

[Jefferson Fisher]

For the guy, my advice would be listen more than you speak. It's simple. But so many people get it wrong. In my opinion, men can be too quick to try and solve and fix and do. When the woman is trying to connect emotionally to just making sure that we feel the same way about something, where a guy may not want to be in the emotions or get in his feels, he's just wanting to go, okay, what do you want me to do with this? And woman's saying, I don't want you to do anything. I just want to express this. There's also differences between people who are internal thinkers, and they are somebody who's an external processor. I keep my stuff in my head, as you know.

[Amy Porterfield]

You do, you do.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And there are also people that are like, I need to hear everything. I need to process this externally. This is how I get things out. Usually for men, you need to be generous with your listening. Everybody can work on that. But I think to be more in tune with that, emotions are meant to be felt, and there's nothing wrong with a single emotion. They're very natural. For women, it would be if I was giving advice.

[Amy Porterfield]

All right, would you like to nod? But I'm still going to do it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

No, I mean, it's a fair question. Just forgive me. Anybody out there would be that even if I don't feel at the level that you feel does not mean that I don't care. I mean that this is coming from my own personal experience. I am also somebody like, I know my enneagram stuff, and I know we've talked about this before, but emotions sometimes feel. I struggle when somebody is getting emotional in a conversation, not in an ugly way, not like, I can't believe you're getting emotional. I just try and look for the message. So it is me more sifting through them. And I also am extremely somebody who carries somebody's emotions, so I feel them for them. And people who are empathetic, who are listening, know that that can weigh you down. Like, that's exhausting sometimes feeling other people's stuff. But the advice for, let's say, the female side of it would be, just because I'm not in it with you to the extent does not mean that I'm trying to dismiss it or disregard it.

[Amy Porterfield]

Oh, that's good. I need to remember that. Definitely with Hobie, that's a good one. Because often I want him to feel exactly how I'm feeling and tell me all the feelings he has, which is not his favorite thing.

[Jefferson Fisher]

But women are great at that. I mean, you know, spilling the tea, getting together for whatever, and then all of a sudden they're talking about the same emotions and like. I know, right? Can you believe.

[Amy Porterfield]

Yes.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Guys, just don't you look at how women connect and haven't seen each other in a week. I can see. Haven't seen a high school friend in eight years. And I can be like, hey, man. Say, hey. You good? Yeah, Good. All right, cool. Dab it up and you're gone. You don't see each other, but say, hey, that's my friend. It's a whole different world. Yeah, a whole different world.

[Amy Porterfield]

That is for sure. Okay, so a lot of people who are listening right now are building businesses, as you know, and they're starting to build their teams as well. So one of the things why I was very excited for you to come on is because conversations with team members can get really tricky and Jefferson. Especially when you have your own business. So it's one thing to work in a corporate job and. And have your experiences, but when you own the business and you're building your team, everything feels just so much more personal. And so I want to talk a little bit about that and. And really just kind of give you some scenarios and if you could give us some advice for these. Are you cool with that?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay. Yeah. Are we assigning points?

[Amy Porterfield]

Okay. Dr. Communication. So get ready. Okay, so this first one, if you have a team member that you want to address some issues with and you're having a conversation and they are shutting down, whatever you said is not working for them. They're probably defensive. But it's that shutdown where you know you're losing someone in a conversation, but the conversation's important to have, and you brought it to the table. What do you do when someone starts shutting down any communication?

[Jefferson Fisher]

When you feel it, that's when you need to say it. So when you feel somebody starting to shut down, it is a thousand percent okay to say, I'm feeling like you're shutting down on me. They'll tell you. You'll be able to confirm it, right. Then you don't want to assume that they are when they're actually just thinking or maybe they're needing to process their emotions. You also need to ask the question, why would they be shutting down? Anytime you are in a difficult conversation, people take it differently. Their nervous systems are not your nervous system, so they may be shutting down to protect themselves. They might be afraid or nervous or upset. So when you can make sure that you are giving them space to feel that that's important. Where you go wrong is you go, hey, look at me. Hey. No, you need to talk to me right now. Hey. And you start to get overbearing now, you feel like you're almost on top of them. Then they feel like they're cornered and it's not going to go well ever. When that happens, they'll lock up even more and most likely you'll say something that you regret. Because what happens often is when somebody's starting to close up, we say ugly things and hope that they will respond and we do that unintentionally. You might say something ugly to just get them to at least engage with you in some way. It's much better just to let that lie. To say things like, I'm happy to address this at another time with you, or I, I need to make sure that we're on the same page. I'm happy to take this tomorrow or take a 30 minute timeout. Anything that you can do to add some space into it and ask the question, why would they be shutting down? You're having to look at what's triggering to them at this moment.

[Amy Porterfield]

Makes sense. How about the defensiveness? So that's a little different than shutting down. Actually, it's very different. So you start talking to a team member and you're not happy with their performance and you've got to just put it out there. And they have an excuse, are defensive for everything you're saying. How do you navigate that?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, what I would encourage anybody that when you go into a conversation, somebody's getting defensive, you don't want to continue to press on things. That's only going to get them more defensive because at that point they are many ways just putting up a wall. And you're not going to get them to your side of the court until you get them to explain all what's happening on their end. When you can use words like I agree, for example, I agree, that's worth talking about. I agree, that's a fair point. Or I can see where you're coming from. Any ways that you can use language to show that you're right there with them. Or that's instead of you getting upset saying, well, that's helpful to know, thank you for sharing that with me. And then say what you need to say rather than immediately coming in and going, that's not true, that's not what I said. No, no, no, you got this all wrong. Anytime you hit it from that angle, they're going to continue to just draw out the claws, draw out the spikes, and it's not going to feel nearly as productive when that happens. So you need to find ways that you're going to approach the conversation as somebody who's wanting to learn, not somebody who's wanting to prove something in that moment.

[Amy Porterfield]

I love that idea of acknowledging anytime I'm upset and somebody acknowledges that I'm upset or they could understand, I feel like I'm a hundred percent less defensive in that situation. So I think. I think that's an easy thing to navigate. That's great advice for that. Okay, this one is a sensitive one to me because I don't want to admit I do this, but it happens sometimes. What do you do, Jefferson, when you are having a very important conversation? And here's the worst part, it could be personal, which is fine with what I'm going to say, but when it's work, it actually is very awkward. What do you do when you start to cry in an important conversation?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, anybody who cries in conversation, let's say it's a difficult one. It's getting to be heated and you start to cry. Anybody who's hearing this, I want you to understand that it's completely natural. It is 1000% normal for that to happen. Doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong. So, number one, don't ever apologize for starting to cry in an argument. Don't say, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry I'm crying. My gosh. Oh, my goodness, I'm so embarrassed. So sorry I'm crying. Like, take that and throw it away. Don't ever do that again. Don't apologize for what your body's naturally doing. It's your nervous system. You're getting emotionally flooded. That's why you're probably getting tense behind your ears and your shoulders or you feel shaky. It's the higher the tension, the higher the release. So you want to make sure that you label your tears. So two, number two would be label those tears. These are tears that care. These are tired tears. These are frustrated tears. When you do that, you're taking control over them. You're not saying, how embarrassed am I that I am doing what my body is naturally doing. Instead of labeling, of giving the other person some context of where these tears are coming from, but you're absolutely not going to apologize for it. That's one of the biggest takeaways. Don't apologize for the tears. And when somebody else is crying in front of you, there is this temptation to go, oh, here, let me get some tears. Tissues are. Or let's put it this way, socially, in relationship context, somebody starts to cry and the guy goes or the girl goes, oh, really? You're gonna this again? Okay, great. Or let me guess. Oh, you're crying. Okay, awesome. All right, that's worse. And then they just make you feel weak. They make you feel terrible about it. It's a horrible way to go about it. Instead, if somebody's crying in front of you, let's switch this around. Then you are in the position of doing nothing other than continuing to talk. Don't acknowledge the tears. Don't say, oh, do you need a moment? None of that. I won't even set that aside. You just need to continue to talk. If you say anything, it's. You can keep talking. You can keep going. You're good. Like, you just need to show that they're not affecting you in some way. Even when you're the one crying, you just act like it's just not a big deal. You can label them if you want. Otherwise, don't say anything. You just keep talking.

[Amy Porterfield]

Okay, So I usually say, so my audience knows I am a sensitive girl. So it's happened at work, and it's happened in personal relationships and in work. I usually say, and I will never say this again, ignore the tears. Pretend they're not even there. And then I keep talking, like, just ignore this right now. Where then it just seems like I'm bad or I'm doing something wrong versus labeling them. Oh, my gosh. I feel like that gives them actually some context and maybe some. A little bit of power in that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. And that's the beautiful part of labeling the tears is it's you also taking some ownership and empowering yourself over what it really is. Because it's. When you cry, it is nothing more than your stress in liquid form that I am feeling this. And this is where it's coming out right here. What I don't want you to do again, Amy, if you can friend to friend, if you can help, it is don't say ignore the tears. Act like they're not there. By even saying that, you're calling attention to it. Instead, if you want to really ignore that they're there, the one who needs to ignore them is you.

[Amy Porterfield]

Yes.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So you just need to just. Just continue to go on about it. If you act like it's slowing you down or you're embarrassed, then the other per. Other people feel that.

[Amy Porterfield]

Yes. Okay, that. That's a huge lesson for me. A lot of these questions, Jefferson, are very selfish because I want to learn how to be a better communicator. But I know that my audience were very much Same in all of this. So this next question, I think, will resonate with my audience as well, and that is that many of us, now, I have seen this with women more than men, but we. There's always an exception. We really want to be nice in conversations. We really don't want to hurt people's feelings. And so we get into these conversations, and sometimes we don't get to the point, or sometimes we do not say exactly what we want to say because we're afraid or going to hurt the other person. What is your advice for that? How do we navigate this so that's not the case for us?

[Jefferson Fisher]

We could take this a lot of different ways. Amy, what comes to mind first is when you are afraid to say something because of what it might do, we have the. Here's what the default sounds like in a difficult conversation. The default sounds like, hey, Amy, so you've been great. And here, let's put it into context. Let's say, I need to let you go.

[Amy Porterfield]

Okay.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay. You haven't been that great of a.

[Amy Porterfield]

You really went there. I'm tired.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, let's just go ahead and get it all out. Okay.

[Amy Porterfield]

So I come into your office, and I have a seat.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Have a seat. And I say, how are you? How's it going, Amy? Everything. Everything good? I'm good.

[Amy Porterfield]

I'm good.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Yeah. How's it going?

[Amy Porterfield]

It was a stressful weekend. I did this, I did that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right, right. All right. How's your pickleball? This weather's crazy. And then I say this. I go, so listen. Right there, right there. So listen. That is the sound of going up a little bump and then going immediately down. And the temperature of the room entirely changes. This happens a lot when people are nervous to deliver bad news or say something sensitive or say something that they know. They're more afraid of the outcome than they are of what they're about to say next. So they are thinking, this person's going to hate me. I'm uncomfortable. They've been sick about this. When they brush their teeth in the morning, it goes south. When you start with little small talk, that is you trying to make the other person feel good instead of getting right out of the gate, because it's kind of disingenuous. And it would be disingenuous to you, too, Amy, in this. This scenario, because you're thinking the whole time, where is this going? Your whole body is looking for the bear in the bush. You're going, where are we going? Your nervous system is, I'm waiting for the hammer to drop. That's why a lot of people are listening for the word. But I think you're great. I loved our time together and dating, but. And there it goes. So anytime it says so listen, you've ruined it. Instead, what you want to do out of the gate is be very clear of what the conversation is going to be like. So let's say you sit down again and I say, this is not going to be fun for us to talk about, Amy. Pause. And then I deliver, I need to let you go. Or this is going to be a difficult conversation. Or this is going to be hard for us to talk about. Or I don't like saying this. Anything that is very upfront of delivering, categorizing what the conversation is going to be. Now it's very clear to them, all right, now I'm going to emotionally kind of prepare myself for what's happening next. So for people who are more hesitant about it, it's because you're worried about making them feel good, you're worried about disappointing them. Let me tell you, that is the exact reason why you need to say it. So when you can start with something as simple as, this is going to be a difficult conversation for me, perfect. Now the other person has tuned in. Now they know it's not all flowers and roses and then for you to slide it out under their feet.

[Amy Porterfield]

So no small talk is needed in situations like this. You just get right to the point.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes.

[Amy Porterfield]

Okay.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It would be, one, no small talk. Two, get straight to the point as quick as you can. So it's, I need to let you go. I'm asking for a raise. I need to change what we're doing. Anything. I mean, that's the next sentence that you need to have once you kind of prep that and prime that conversation. Three would be, you need to make sure that you keep it as short as possible, possible. Because if you can't say it in two minutes, you probably couldn't say it in 20 minutes. When we've been in those kind of conversations where you want it to be very short beginning, and then here you are in minute 20 and you're just saying the same thing over and over again. You're just saying it in a different way and it's becoming circular and that's not serving you in any way. So it's more confident position to be kind of tough about it than, you know, there's going to be a hard, hard cutoff.

[Amy Porterfield]

And that reminds me of what we started, where you could say a lot by saying Less so that plays a part in this conversation. And also, I've heard you say this on your videos, that people really respect you for that. You know, that you just got down to the point and you made it as short and painless as possible. I think that there is a lot of respect for that. We recently let go of a few people on the team and when they would. When we had to have the conversation, getting right to it, I could tell that they just were like, okay, this is happening. Where. What's going on? It's like such a mean thing to do to someone when you're going to be delivering bad news.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's the best way to do it because clarity is kind. Being direct is kind. You just have to get over that hump of disappointment. But the thing was, they're going to be disappointed anyway.

[Amy Porterfield]

Like, that's the thing.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You have to disappoint them. You cannot please everybody. It's not their business. It's your business. And you're doing what you need to.

[Amy Porterfield]

Do, what you got to do.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Even if you need to have the start with, this is going to be a business discussion. I mean, you're making it clear. This is not us talking personal life. This isn't because I don't like you. This is a business conversation. Anything that you can do just right out of the gate, that's going to put that in a perfect little spot. Also for anybody listening, this is another tool that I love to talk about. And you can apply this really for anything. Both at home and work are frames. And framing a difficult conversation is one of the best ways to make sure it always ends well, because it's built into the system. I'm going to tell you, number one would be you tell them what you want to talk about. Two, which is the most important? You tell them how you want to end the conversation, how you want the conversation to end.

[Amy Porterfield]

Love that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Most people go into conversations and they have no clue what they really want out of it. They just. All they know is they want to feel good about it. And three, you get their buy in. So let's say, for example, you made a comment last week that I need to address. I'm the employer, you're the employee. I could say making sure I set a time for this conversation. I'm not like, knocking on your door, hey, do you have five minutes kind of thing. Set aside time. And it's Amy. I'd like to talk about some comments you made at last Tuesday's meeting. That's number one. I just told you exactly what I want to talk about. Number two. And I want to walk away from that conversation making sure we're on the same page. And I want to make sure that we're aligned on where we want to go or it's as simple as. And I want to make sure that that's not going to happen again. Like you could even make it enforcement. Then the third is, does that sound good? Can we do that? Anything that is getting their buy in, say that that work. As soon as they nod their head and say yes, now you got it. It's like an invisible contract where they feel like, okay, now I'm very clear on what you want to talk about, how it's going to end. And I have the buy in. And now there's no fear of the unknown. Now you don't have to talk about, you know, Brad in HR or Greg in accounting, like, you know exactly what you're talking about and you can keep it with the frame. And people like to. People don't like to go back on their word. So when they agree to this conversation, they almost always stick to it at the end. And you know, when it's done, when you are both on the same page or they both understand it's not going to happen again, I mean, whenever that goal is reached.

[Amy Porterfield]

I love that you brought this up because that was one of the points I wanted to talk about in your book. You do such a great job of talking about, have a goal for the conversation, like, and make it clear. So that's exactly what you just explained here. But it reminded me of something you and Mel Robbins talked about on her podcast. I loved this and I wanted you to share it with my listeners as well. I might get it wrong, so you'll have to correct me, but you go into a conversation and you say something like, I've got to tell you this because I know you can handle it and. Or something like that. Can you explain why you would do. Maybe give us some examples and what that does to the conversation and to the person that you're talking to.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. You are wanting to equip them with the tools for the conversation. And you do that by just telling them what they have. So let's say you could say this, for example, I'm telling you this because I know you can take it, or I know you value, let's say I need to. These are also what I call priming a conversation. You may have heard that phrase, and that's me saying, I know you value honesty here or I know transparency is important to you. And then you go into the conversation, so you're kind of giving them the quality that you want them to have. And they will almost always rise up into this. So if it's like, I'm telling you this, Amy, because I know you like to have an open mind, you can't do it. If this person is an absolute jerk and you know, it's not really part of their ethos for them to be like that, that's manipulative. That's not true. But if you know that this person really does value patience or being open minded, or if you suspect that they can say, amy, I'm telling you this because I know you can take it. I mean, that's.

[Amy Porterfield]

I feel like I can take.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Absolutely. Now you're empowered to go, oh, whatever you have to say, I can take it. Oh, I do have an open mind. You're so right. I am transparent. Yes. I love, I do love transparency. You're giving them the quality that you want them to have in whatever that is. I also like the prime conversations with the room. So if, let's say it's an office or a conference room, before the conversation starts, I might say, let's say you and I were in the same room. I might say, I want to make sure that this is a space where I can be totally honest with you. Now you understand how I didn't say I want to make sure that I can be truthful with you. It's now talking about the room, or I want to make sure I'm in a room where we can can really get it all out right here. And so now it feels like we're under the umbrella of honesty or truthfulness or whatever it is. So you can have that difficult conversation without attacking the other person saying, I want to make sure that you're going to be honest with me.

[Amy Porterfield]

Okay, Jefferson, that reminds me of something else that I've been taught by you. I've learned a lot. My friend learned a lot. Not only from social media, but your book, which we'll talk about a little bit later, is a wealth of information in terms of how to navigate these conversations. One thing you talk about in your book that I'd really like to get good at is the power of the Pause. And I want to tell you a quick story, because I have a CEO. Her name is Jen, but we call her Jaws, which right there is intimidating. I know that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Okay.

[Amy Porterfield]

And Jaws is a really great communicator, and she tends to talk a little slower than Me, she rarely gets very emotional and, like, caught up in the conversation. She stays pretty steady, and she pauses before she says anything. And I always feel as though she has the upper hand in our conversations, like, respect, full respect. But I tend to be a little bit more emotional, kind of say things that I haven't thought about first. I want to be the person that pauses in conversations. Why is a pause important, and how do you learn that? Like, can you learn something like that? Especially if you're emotional like me?

[Jefferson Fisher]

You can absolutely learn it.

[Amy Porterfield]

Oh, good.

[Jefferson Fisher]

No, you can definitely learn it. And you don't have to change your name to Buzzsaw or Jackhammer or anything like that.

[Amy Porterfield]

That's good.

[Jefferson Fisher]

The power of the pause is. Is probably the most effective tool that you can use in communication, period. And this is why it gives you time to choose. It gives you the time to choose if this person is worth your time, if the issue is worth your thoughts and effort. It allows you to choose your words. It allows you to choose your own timing for things. And the length of a pause is different. It says different things. If I don't respond to your text in five minutes, that's one thing. I don't respond to it in five days, that says another. So the timing of pauses is variable. And you say so much in a pause because it might be the absence of communication, it might be the absence of words, but it's not the absence of communication. All you need to do when you want to inject a pause before your response is you make your breath be the first word that you say.

[Amy Porterfield]

Okay?

[Jefferson Fisher]

So wherever your first word would be, like, well, yeah, but I don't really. Wherever that is, just take a breath in its place. Use a conversational breath, an ability to take. Take maybe three to five seconds of responding. Like, Amy, if you were to ask me, so, Jefferson, how was your week? And I immediately said, it was good. It was fine. I mean, it was fine. It was busy, but it was good. That's one way versus you saying, hey, Jefferson, how was your week? And I went, it was good. It was good. It was busy, but. But it was good. Now you hear the difference in control, the difference in confidence. Now, you know, I had a good week. And that applies to any way you want to answer something. And you can take a pause to go, you're signaling, I heard your question. I'm digesting your question. And now I'm going to give you a thoughtful response. It's a lot more powerful that way, especially people that, like, if, let's say, Somebody's saying something ugly, or you're getting a difficult question and front of a group of people, and you immediately try to give an answer because you think rapidness is going to show your intelligence and confidence. It's the exact opposite. People who are confident know they can choose not to say anything if they don't wish. But that doesn't mean I didn't hear you. So if you said something ugly or said something important, me just taking the breath to digest it, showing that I'm thinking means that I'm in no rush, means that anything that's going on right now is not threatening to me. That's the difference. People who are confident are not threatened by new information or by questions. People who are insecure are. That's why people who are insecure always have to ask a question to everything. They always have to have an answer for everything. Confidence is quiet. Insecurities are loud. So the power of the pause is the quickest way to show confidence.

[Amy Porterfield]

Okay, I love that you brought up confidence, because that's the number. Well, it's at the top of the list of what most of my audience members or listeners want. They want more confidence. Confidence in making decisions, confidence in saying what they want, confidence in going after what they want. They do a lot of video and podcasting as well. They want to show up confident. And I personally know, because I've asked, you have a very good track record as a trial lawyer. Very good. And so you must have a lot of confidence in. In doing what you do. I love that you talked about the power of the pause that allows us to come across more confident in conversations. What else, though? What else can you teach us that will allow us to come across more. More confident in our communication?

[Jefferson Fisher]

People ask that question a lot of, how can I feel more confident? Or if I only had the confidence to say this? Or I'm building the confidence to do X, Y, and Z. And confidence is a feeling. It's not a thing that you do. So what I teach is that confidence is as assertive does. It is your assertive voice that gives you confidence. So confidence is not something that starts at the beginning that you need to have before you do it. Confidence is the outcome. Confidence is what you get at the end of the conversation. And then with that feeling, you're able to say more assertive things. And then you feel more confident. Then you have the confidence to say more assertive things. It continues to build in a loop how you do this for anybody who's listening. If you want to build your Confidence. You. You need to say more assertive things. You can do that by one, eliminating the unnecessary apologies that I'm so sorry. I'm just now getting back to you. Oh, my gosh. So sorry. I just didn't even see your text. Anything that we're just apologizing for no reason. Apologizing for what? Having your own priorities. That's not assertive in any way. Instead, take the words of I'm sorry and turn it into words of gratitude. Hey, thank you for the patience. Thank you for giving me time to reply. Now you are again, like, we just talked about giving them qualities that they didn't know that they had. Thank you for your patience. Oh, I was, you know, I really was so patient waiting two days for that email response. Eliminating unnecessary apologies. Two, you are wanting to eliminate the adverbs. Minimize them as much as possible. That's the words that end in ly. It's literally, essentially. Basically so many people who are giving presentations or they're on a phone call or a meeting and they go, so basically we have this. They leave with. So essentially, it's just fluff. It's absolute fluff. It means nothing. You don't need it. We're using the word just. That's another big one. Hey, I just want to touch base. No, I wanted to touch base. Just makes it sound hesitant. You don't want to continue to inject that just says, I am an inconvenience right now. No, you're not. I wanted to touch base with you. It's just a way to lean in more into. 3. Another way to do this. Use phrases like, I'm going. Like, instead of just let's say you're in an argument. Instead of going, click, hanging up the phone, it's, I'm going to hang up the phone now. Click. Instead of just busting out of the room just like, I can't even deal with this anymore, versus I'm going to leave the room, like, and then go do it. You're proven to yourself that what I say I'm going to do, I'm going to do. Because it's worse when somebody's in that bad argument and you go, I swear, if I'm so over this, I'm out of here. And then you stay and you continue to have been that conversation. I just diluting your credibility. So those are little things you can do to increase your assertive voice. And that's. That's all. That's the best way to feel more confident.

[Amy Porterfield]

I'm gonna use it all that. That was good. That's. I love how tangible your strategies are. Like, we can literally get off this podcast and start doing some of this. So before we wrap up, I think my final question for you is what? This is gonna sound a little bit weird, but what do you wish people. People would ask you about communication? You know, you've been asked a million questions, and I know you're on a lot of podcasts, but what's that question? You're like, if they only knew to ask this, or I wish they would ask this, what would it be?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, that's a good one, Amy. I don't know what they could ask me. I'll say it in terms of what I wish I could tell them.

[Amy Porterfield]

Okay, great.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And because you're gonna. You only answer what you're asked. And what I wish I could tell them is that communication, the ways to change your life from your business to your work, it doesn't happen in the big, huge moments. They're not. Nobody takes these big leaps. That's what you think you see in their life. You look at you, all the wonderful, amazing person that you are and the things that you've done, they're looking at it today. They don't see where you came from, what you had to go through. Communication happens in the smallest of steps. You really want to change a relationship. It happens in the next word, in the next sentence, in the next conversation. It doesn't happen just by imagining that the conversation is going to go exactly how it played out in your head. That if you could get them to just control them this way and this way and block them and win somehow, you're gonna find yourself losing a whole lot more communication, positive communication, and handling yourself in the most difficult of circumstances. Happens when you can take just the smallest step to learn more than you're trying to prove.

[Amy Porterfield]

Ooh, that is good. Actually, you make it feel so much more doable when you say that. Where we don't have to go out there and have these really big, hard conversations to become a better communicator. It's in our everyday. Would you agree, Jefferson? And I think this is something that I love about you, and I hope you would agree with this, that your communication style, part of it is you are intentional and you are mindful. Do you think those are two words that could best describe your communication style?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes, I would say. I would tweak it to say I'm intentional and attentive. Like observant.

[Amy Porterfield]

Ooh, yes, that's good. So talk a little bit about that observant.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. We tend to observe ourselves. Most people would tend to observe ourselves more than we observe the other person. And the magic happens when you get really curious of themselves, the other person, you get real curious about the other person. And this happens of where your goals are placed. When the goal is to win an argument, all the attention is on you. How you're performing, how am I doing, how can I win the argument? But instead of trying to win it, you try to unravel it and treat it like a nod. Then you get curious, and then you become observant of seeing the person behind who you're talking to, of noticing the little different behaviors. So now your goal isn't to win. You set a very small goal like we talked about, just that next little step. Now your goal is, I just want to leave this conversation feeling heard, or I want to lead the conversation, how I can better understand their perspective. When you lower the bar, rather than feeling like you have to change everything, it makes it a whole lot easier in communication, and it makes you easier to be observant and see what's going on.

[Amy Porterfield]

Oh, I think that's so powerful. For sure. Okay, so to wrap up, we've got to talk about your book. It's called the Next Conversation. Argue less, talk more. This is your very first book, and I've already told you this is. This is going to be a huge book. And I want to say I was the first to say it, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't. But, Jefferson, why'd you write this book?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I wrote this book out of so many people asking me to write a book.

[Amy Porterfield]

Your audience asked and asked and asked. I saw that. Yes.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Followers just kept saying, you should write a book. Please write a book. And I thought, well, I guess I'll write a book. I never imagined I would ever write a book. And this has just grown into something way more than I ever thought it would. We've had lots of discussions about that, but I wrote this book to the people who are struggling to connect with maybe a grandson that they hadn't talked to in eight years or estranged daughter you haven't spoken to, and you're having a hard time communicating with them. I'm talking to the people that are the small entrepreneurs that feel like they don't know how to run their business or they feel like they get walked on and they're too afraid to say what they need to say and step out and make that first step to hearing their assertive voice, that thing that felt familiar to Them and they just haven't heard in so long. It's for the people that need to balance how they communicate, to stand their ground, but also speak with kindness and grace. It's a book that I want to be my legacy for my kids.

[Amy Porterfield]

Well, it absolutely will be the next conversation. Jefferson, where could they go to get the book? Because I think you've got some bonuses, right?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I do. I have some bonuses. There's also a bonus chapter that I wrote.

[Amy Porterfield]

Whoa, that's a big deal. I love bonus chapters.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, oh, that's cool. Let me write a bonus chapter. They can go to jeffersonfisher.com book or if you look, go on a social media, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, Jefferson Fisher, and. And you can find it all there. But I do have bonuses that I've made for anybody who pre orders the book, and it's something that I know they're going to get immediate value in. There's two different PDF guides. One's for family, one's for workplace. These are some of my top seven phrases that they can use to really take control of any of those conversations. And last is a daily conversation journal script, which I made, that they can use, that they can print off. Put it on their desk to help plan out for the difficult conversations they have in their life.

[Amy Porterfield]

Okay. That right there is worth it alone. I mean, the book's going to be incredible. But the bonuses, you know, I'm an Internet marketer. I love the bonuses. Jefferson's a little weary of Internet marketers. I'm just going to tell your secrets. He doesn't get our world. Would you agree with that? Some of it's a little odd to you?

[Jefferson Fisher]

A thousand percent.

[Amy Porterfield]

I once told him that I talk about how much money I make. And I said, jefferson, I do it because I want women to see what's possible. And I have to go before him. And he looked at me like I had three heads. He's like, you're sharing with people how much money you make, which is such an Internet marketing thing, not a trial lawyer thing. So it's a different world.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Amy Porterfield]

You get it?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Oh, I totally get it. I mean, and you're. And you're the top. I mean, you're the best out there. So whatever you say to do, they do.

[Amy Porterfield]

Well, I don't know about that, but thank you, my friend. I'll take it. I have loved every bit of this conversation, and I cannot wait for my audience to get their hands on your book. So we'll make sure we shout it from the rooftops. And just thank you so much for taking the time to do this. I know that you are changing lives conversation by conversation, and I just really appreciate you taking the time to do it here.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Thanks, Amy.