← The Amy Porterfield Show
The Amy Porterfield Show
The Pressure to Keep Winning (and What It’s Costing You) with Patrick Lencioni
00:53:45
What Helped Me Trust My Team, Protect My Energy, and Step Into True Leadership
Loading summary
Transcript163 lines
- [00:02]
A
Hey there.
- [00:03]
B
Welcome to the Amy Porterfield Show.
- [00:11]
A
If we don't know what our working genius is and competencies and frustrations are, how do we know how to be successful? And we can be struggling and not know why and think. And we judge ourselves and others. We say things like, I guess they're lazy or they're not very smart. Like, no, they're smart in a different way and they work hard for different reasons than you.
- [00:36]
B
Years ago, I was working with a consultant in my business and we were a lot smaller. We weren't making as much money and we didn't have a lot of people on the team, but we were starting to grow. And this consultant I worked with said, you need a leadership team now. I looked around like, I don't think my business is big enough for a leadership team. But he said, you absolutely do. Because at the time we were starting to break out in departments, we didn't have that many, but we were starting to do so. And he said, you can't lead everybody, and you need strong leaders on the team that will help you be strategic and help you move the business forward and help you manage the people that are getting the work done. And when he said it that way, I was like, yeah, I want a leadership team. So many, many years ago, I started to put together my leadership team. And I remember at the time when we pulled in a few people, I remember I asked somebody to be on my leadership team. She'd been with my company for a long time. She's like, no thanks, don't want to do that. It just wasn't her personality and I had to respect that. So I went to someone else and I tried to get some people on my leadership team. And we were sitting there at the first meeting like, what do we do? What's happening here? And so I knew I quickly had to pull it together. And one of my first mentors from afar related to building a leadership team related to workplace culture was my friend Patrick Lencioni. And Patrick, although he didn't know it, really became my guide in terms of how to build up this leadership team, how to be a great leader to this leadership team, and how to help them become great leaders in my company. And so we devoured all of his books and he has many. And really, this is the guy that helped us shape what I call a world class leadership team. To this day, I have such an incredible leadership team. And it started with literally going down the path of my guest and everything he had to offer and just devouring it all. So Again, my guest today is Patrick Lencioni and he is a business consultant, he's a speaker, and I think he's best known for being a best selling author for some of the best books on the market. And he's known for his expertise in organizational health, teamwork, and leadership. So his frameworks are used by Fortune 500 companies, small businesses like mine, and even solopreneurs. If you are a solopreneur, this is such a great place to start with Patrick's content and his teachings. Because when you start to grow that team, even if you just grow a small team, you will be so much stronger for doing so, for really diving into this content. So he is an absolute pro at helping people like you and me and improve our workplace culture, which is so incredibly important. Right, because it brings in great talent to our team. People want to work with us, people want to stay. Every time one of my team members has an anniversary, I always feel this tinge of, of course, grateful, but also pride that that person wants to stay with me for year after year after year. And I think it's because we really do focus on workplace culture and we have for many, many years, even when my team was a whole lot smaller. So as I mentioned, he's written many books. Thirteen to be exact. He's a New York Times bestseller. My favorite book is the Five Dysfunctions of a Team. Highly recommend. And he has a new book, the Six Types of Working Genius. This whole concept of working genius, we're going to get into it today blew my mind and I of course, had to share it with my leadership team because it's that good. So one little fun fact, he just moved to Franklin, Tennessee, which is down the street from me. So now he's in my neck of the woods. So I won't make you wait any longer. Let's bring on my special guest, Patrick. So I've already given you an intro in my intro, but I love to hear from my guest. You know, in your own words, tell me a little bit about yourself.
- [04:35]
A
Wow. I guess I would consider myself kind of a liberal arts guy. Like, I just love looking at everything. And I started my career in business as a management consultant, but I was really interested in the people side of business and just followed my nose, thanks be to God, and took an interest in what we now call organizational health. So I just love how people interact in the work world and how that impacts how they get things done and whether they get along and whether they're fully healed and people who know themselves. So everything I Do I just kind of follow my nose? And like I said, by the grace of God, I come up with new ideas because I can't help it. And people seem to benefit from those. And so that's what I do. And I'm blessed that I get to keep coming up with new ideas.
- [05:18]
B
So true.
- [05:18]
A
One day I'll run out, I suppose.
- [05:20]
B
I don't think you ever will. How many books do you have?
- [05:24]
A
You know, I think it's 14 would be the right word answer.
- [05:27]
B
Oh, my goodness. 14.
- [05:29]
A
But I've got a workbook and. Is that a book? And then I wrote a faith book. Does that count?
- [05:34]
B
Totally counts, yes.
- [05:36]
A
I think it's 14 or 15, maybe.
- [05:39]
B
Wow. And do you think you have more books in you? Are you working on one now?
- [05:43]
A
I am working on one right now.
- [05:44]
B
I'm not surprised at all.
- [05:46]
A
I always think maybe the last one was the last one, but I have another.
- [05:50]
B
Are you allowed to tell us what it's about or is it secret right now?
- [05:52]
A
No. You know, it's going to touch on the whole concept of the wounds of leaders and of people and how our wounds impact us. And we often don't realize it. Sometimes we're successful because we're working out of our wounds and fear. And a lot of people of achievement struggle with that and they don't even quite understand it. And I've. I've experienced that myself. So I was just talking to a guy today about our own suffering is what gives us empathy for others. And I'm going to write a book about how to help leaders and all adults think about how their wounds impact how they act and how they can heal.
- [06:26]
B
Okay. I don't really know any other book on the market with that very specific topic. I cannot wait for it to come out. When are we thinking we're going to get to read it?
- [06:35]
A
Oh, gosh, it's going to be at least a year.
- [06:37]
B
Okay, so we're. We're still writing it. And in the throws. Okay, gotcha. Well, I'm looking forward to it. But today we're going to talk about another topic. So I want to just start out by first saying so many of us, because, Patrick, you're talking to entrepreneurs, people that have been in business maybe a year or two, even longer. They're building online businesses, so they're working from home, but they have teams for sure, or they aspire to have team members. So just to set the stage who you're talking to. And so many of us start a business like the one I have for freedom I teach how valuable an online business is to achieve that freedom. But then as we grow, sometimes it just feels harder than expected. Like building businesses is hard. So you're looking for that freedom, but now you're not on a beach, sippy my ties, on your laptop, like it just isn't what you think it is. So I've hit big milestones in my business and there's been times that I think, okay, is this what success is supposed to feel like? So why does it still feel so hard? So can you tell us, like, why does that happen to so many business owners?
- [07:45]
A
You know, I think it's not completely unrelated to what I was talking about, what I'm working on right now. And that is because I started my business 28 years ago for freedom. Also. I was like, I want to work with people. I want that I love and do things. And it wasn't that I wanted to work less. I just wanted to have more freedom in what I was doing. And oftentimes that means you work more, but you love it. Right?
- [08:08]
B
True, very true.
- [08:09]
A
But then you experience success in small or large degree and suddenly you find yourself wondering, how do I maintain this? And you lose some of that initial joy and beauty of the, of the change to freedom. And I was just talking to a couple leaders of a very high profile business here in the area that we live in, and they have experienced more success than they could have ever imagined. And they're less happy because they feel the weight of maintaining it and taking care of the people that they've hired and, and, and not blowing it. And, and sometimes I think that we, we start our work in enjoy and then we slip it into fear. We think like, oh, what could go wrong?
- [08:53]
B
Oh, that's me. Absolutely. I worry about everything. I hate it, but I do.
- [08:58]
A
Yeah, and you're not alone. And oftentimes there's stuff that happens to us when we're young that actually propels us to be successful. And it wasn't exactly a good thing. Even if the people who did it, it could be our parents or something, but they thought they were doing the right thing. But then we, we go like, oh, no, I better succeed. And the most successful people in life often have a like fear based wound, like, I don't want to fail.
- [09:24]
B
Oh, why are you getting right into my head? Is this a therapy session? Because this is me. I had a father who was really strict and really looked for excellence and I felt like I never measured up. But hard, right? So hard work is how I got his attention. And so now I just work as hard as I can to be enough. There's all of my wounds. There you go.
- [09:49]
A
And. And what's amazing is that can keep you going for so long. And in my life, I had something similar to that. They're not exactly the same, but similar. And I got. Just got to an age where I thought, wow, the fear isn't working anymore. And I'm not enjoying this, even though I love the people I work with and I love what I do, but. But the fear. And I finally just said, I gotta figure this out. And so I spent. I didn't know I was gonna talk about this, but I spent four months locked down in intense therapy and prayer and spiritual direction and. And discussion, trying to figure out, so who am I and why do I do what I do?
- [10:28]
B
That's powerful.
- [10:30]
A
Oh, it was the most intense, painful, wonderful blessing I've ever gone through, and I'm still continuing. But so many of the leaders, in fact, I have yet to meet a leader that I didn't tell this story to. Those guys I was talking the other day, they were like, oh, yeah, our parents, they don't understand what we do. And I. And deep down inside, we're kind of waiting for that day when they go, you've done so well. That's enough.
- [10:52]
B
Oh, I can't even imagine, you know.
- [10:55]
A
And Amy, ask yourself why. And God bless these people. There's not a. It's not a judgment anymore. But why Tiger woods and Michael Jordan and Jerry Rice and. And. And all these athletes, like, what keeps them going? And society tends to say, good on you, but a lot of them are like, no, I'm trapped. I'm never going to be enough. And so what. What I want leaders to do is realize, you're enough now. Do this out of. Of love and joy and peace, not out of fear. And come to terms with what happened when you were younger and realize what. There's nothing you can do that's going to address that. So come to terms with that and process it and then work out of joy so well.
- [11:39]
B
I absolutely love that. And I feel as though you've developed something to help us really understand ourselves as leaders. So I want to talk about that. I want to dive.
- [11:48]
A
That's a piece of this. That's a piece of it for sure.
- [11:50]
B
Okay, good. So that makes. I was like, I hope this is a good transition, because I really want to get to this. So you've created something called the Sample Six Types of Working Genius. And it's a framework that really Allows you to understand your. Yourself more and navigate in your work in different ways. So first, before we get into all the details, can you talk about what are the six different types of this framework?
- [12:14]
A
Okay, great. So there's. There's six kinds of work that have to get done in any endeavor. Whether you're starting an online marketing business, whether you're running your household, whether you're running a corporation, anything you do, whether you're building a house on new property that you have. There's six types of work that are involved in that. Okay? And here's. Here's what they are. I'll go through them very quickly. The first kind of work, which happens at the highest level, like at 50,000ft, is called the genius of wonder. That's where you sit there and you just go. You ponder like, oh, maybe. Maybe we should think about this? Or why are we doing this? Or is this really the best way to go about this? The genius of wonder is a genius. Not everybody has it. My wife has it. And she can ponder things and ask the big questions for hours.
- [13:01]
B
Wow. I do not have that.
- [13:03]
A
Yeah, yeah, I know. I have your results here. You don't have that at all.
- [13:08]
B
Okay.
- [13:08]
A
I don't have it as my. One of my geniuses either. And most people that do have that were never actually rewarded for it. They were told, why are you still asking questions? Get your head out of the clouds. But you know something, Amy? Every new idea, every big thing, starts with somebody saying, why is this the way it is? Every new thing, that's the very beginning of innovation. Is. Is this really the best we can do? They don't even know the answer necessarily, but that's the first thing. And that leads to the next genius, which is somebody hears that question, and then they have the genius of invention. That's one of mine. And again, these geniuses are where you get joy and energy. You don't choose to. You just do them. Now. They're gifts from God. I cannot help but invent things even when people don't want me to. It's. That's the. My natural place to go. I have to regulate it sometimes, but I do this. I was born this way. So when. When my wife says, gee, I wonder what this is about, I like to go, let me try to figure it out. Let me come up with an idea, a solution, a new. A new product, a new book, a new movie. I know I'm going to come up with a new idea. So wonder provokes invention. And. And these first are the first two and now we're still pretty up high up there in the clouds. We're going to get closer to landing the plane, if you will. Somebody comes up with invention. The third genius is the genius of discernment. You have this one. The genius of discernment is people that can look at a problem or a situation or a new idea, and they have integrative thinking, and they have gut feel and intuition, and they see patterns that other people don't see, and they're like, yes, that's the right idea, or, no, there's something missing there, or, ooh, I think you need to tweak this. They just know how to look at something and discern the good in it or that what needs to change. It's an absolute genius. Not everybody has it, but people that do have it are really important because they prevent somebody from coming up with a new idea and then driving it off a cliff.
- [15:16]
B
Oh, okay, good. Yeah. I do feel like that's my role with some of my students.
- [15:20]
A
Right. And you love it when they come and they ask you for advice. You're like, here. And when they trust you and they trust your gut, it's beautiful. The worst thing you can say to somebody with yours is like, prove it.
- [15:32]
B
Yeah. Because I talk about my gut all the time, Patrick, so that's so interesting you say that. I always say, I've got this gut feeling. I can't ignore it. And when I have ignored it, I've really regretted it.
- [15:42]
A
And you shouldn't, because that's a gift.
- [15:44]
B
Okay, good to know it's not you.
- [15:46]
A
Bragging at all, because humility is not. When you have a gift, using it and acknowledging it and even sharing it with others is actually humble. So you have a gut, and people should trust your gut. And when you say to your husband, because my wife and I, it's the hardest place. Discernment is not one of her. Her geniuses. And she'll tell me something. I'm like, I would like you to trust my discernment. And for years, she would go, what are you saying? That I'm not smart? And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. It's just my gut. And she's like, okay, okay, I got it now. You have a good gut. Mine isn't quite as in tune, but I trust her wonder, you know? So good marriage there after discernment, which is the third. So we're coming down the path a little bit. Then we get to galvanizing. Galvanizing is the gift of rallying the troops. Kind of interrupting people and saying, hey, you guys, this is a great idea, we should do it. You know, close your laptops, let's do this. And it's a gift. Some people come out of the womb like, I love to rally the troops. I love to get people excited. I love to sell and inspire and motivate, even if people aren't there yet. Okay, now when I say this one, there's plenty of people that go, I definitely don't have that one. And other people are like, oh, that's my dream job. And see, that's the beauty of this. We should do work that gives us joy and energy and avoid as much as possible the work that drains us of our joy and energy. We'll talk about that in a second. So galvanizing, that's the fourth genius. Now galvanizing is getting closer to landing the plane. The next genius I love to talk about, because people that have this genius don't think it's a genius either. And it is, it's huge. It's called the genius of enablement. And that is people that have that God given ability, they get joy and energy out of coming alongside other people and saying, I will help you get that going. So the galvanizer says, hey, everybody, let's do it. And the person with the genius of enablement says, I'm in. What do you need me to do? I want to come alongside and do whatever's necessary. They're the first to volunteer. They're the glue on a team. We all need them around us. And yet those people think oftentimes that it's not a gift, that they're just malleable or easily influenced. And it's absolutely a gift. There are people that wake up every day and say, I love when people ask me to help, and I'm not one of them.
- [18:03]
B
I'm not either. I feel bad saying that I am not that girl.
- [18:07]
A
And, you know, it's great that you just said that because, like, I'm a Christian, a follower of Jesus, I feel like, well, why don't I do that? Well, as an act of will, I do that sometimes. My wife needs help, I need help. I. I go, yes, I'll help you. But my first and second inclination is not to do that. It's to say, can I come up with a better solution? Or let's talk about whether you really should. You need that help or not, Or.
- [18:29]
B
I have a good idea. I know someone that would do this in a minute for you. Like, I know other people that would enjoy it more and so you do help.
- [18:38]
A
You want to help them, but the way you help is to help them figure out the solution. Not necessarily to. My wife will say, I need your help this weekend. And right away I'm like, oh, no. And she's like, I'm like, what do you need help with? And she says, we're cleaning the garage. I need your help. And so immediately I go, can I design what the garage should look like? And she says, no, I don't want your invention. And then I'm like, are you sure we really need to clean the garage? He goes, I don't want your discernment, I want your enablement. I want you to stand in the corner, I'm going to hand you a box, and you're going to put it where I tell you.
- [19:06]
B
I love it.
- [19:07]
A
And it's not natural for me. I still have to do it sometimes.
- [19:10]
B
Yes, we all do, for sure.
- [19:12]
A
So the last genius after enablement, though, is what we call tenacity, and that is the genius of finishing things. It's one thing to say I like to help. It's another thing. You have this one. It's like, no, I don't actually feel good until it's done. I like to cross the finish line, overcome obstacles, and wrestle things to the ground. Now, I have none of this, so I've written 14 or 15 books. I would have written zero if I didn't have people around here who forced me to finish.
- [19:40]
B
Oh, interesting.
- [19:41]
A
I'm not a finisher. I get lost. I. Oh, I came up with a new idea. I'm halfway through it. Let's move on to the next one. And so I need somebody to crack the whip and say, you're not leaving this room until it's done. Right.
- [19:53]
B
Okay, so this is good. I want to. I want to dive into this even deeper. So you've got these six types, and anyone listening, I want you all to take this assessment so we could talk about it online. So just hold out. We're going to. We're going to give you some deets. But have you seen owners over identify with their working genius in a way that actually holds them back? So maybe they're convincing themselves that they have to be this one thing or they have to do it because they have this one skill. So this is. They have to be doing all of it. Like, am I making sense? Is it. Could it ever be a crutch versus. Versus using it for growth?
- [20:29]
A
Yes. Well, because it's not an excuse for being bad at every. You can't say hey.
- [20:34]
B
Oh, yes.
- [20:34]
A
I don't have that genius, so. Oh, well, you're on your own. What you have to do is you have to say, I don't have that genius, so I suck at it, which is vulnerable sometimes I have to do it anyway because I don't get to just do the stuff I like. But I'm going to celebrate and utilize and reward people that are good at things that I'm not. So. So what? Sometimes what leaders do, they. Especially if you're talking about a small group of people, they hire people that are like them because they kind of find it fun. Well, and. And they kind of denigrate people that are good at things. They're not. So, like, I'm an id. I'm up there in the clouds. Well, I have people that work with me who are ets, which mean they. Their enablement and tenacity. They're. They're like landing the plane. Well, it's so easy to. It would be terrible, but easy to go, oh, you can't think like I do. I'm. I'm up there inventing things. You're just a. But instead you go, I love that you do that. You're so good at that. I wish I could do it, but I can't. I. I value you. I need you. I'm going to celebrate you and not make you think that you're somehow less than. Because nobody's less than anybody else. We need all six.
- [21:42]
B
Okay. Yes, we need all six. Like, specifically, like on our team, would you say you want. Okay, that's great. That's great. You know, my CEO, I'm starting to think. I always call her the thinker. I'm going to tell her something, and she needs some time to digest that before she comes up with all her ideas and her feedback. And I don't know, but I feel like she might be a wonder because she's really looking for, you know, all the things you said your wife was. But also, I value it so very much because I am not that way. So I love that we can look at other people on our team and value something in them that we absolutely do not have.
- [22:19]
A
That's humility. Insecurity is when somebody's good at something that we're not. And so we feel the need to make what we do more important than what they do, less than important. And so when I say you need all, let's just say somebody's listening. And they have a online marketing business. There's two of them. You have to know what the working Geniuses are of the other people. And. And by the way, so we talked about the working genius. That's your top two. That's where you get your joy and energy, but you have a bottom two, and that's called your working frustration. Here's how I like to describe it. I don't have a coffee cup in front of me. Amy.
- [22:51]
B
Yeah.
- [22:52]
A
Your working genius is like a yeti mug. You know, where you pour the coffee in and you screw the lid on, and it's keeps it hot all day. It holds its energy. When we work in our areas of genius, you can work for 12 hours in your area of genius and go, what a great day. I'm totally jazzed. I might need a nap, but I can't wait to get started again. The two in the middle are what we call your working competency. It doesn't feed you, but it doesn't drain you. It's like pouring coffee in a Starbucks cup and putting a lid on it, and it holds its heat for a while. Your working frustrations, your bottom two are like pouring coffee in a cup that has a hole in the bottom of it, and it just drains right through it. Working too long in your area of frustration, your bottom two can crush you.
- [23:38]
B
Ooh. Okay.
- [23:40]
A
And so people should know, like, what are your frustrations? What are your geniuses? What are your competencies? How should we organize what we do? And who do we need to outsource things to? Because neither of us are good at this.
- [23:51]
B
Oh, that's a good one, too. And you're speaking to the right audience, because many of my students and listeners, they don't have big teams. Many of them have one, maybe two people on their team, but they hire contractors. So I love that you said, go out and look for that contractor that could add this value that no one else on your team has.
- [24:10]
A
Right. And. And you know what I love about this? I love working genius for all kinds of things. But people say, like, I want to work in marketing, okay? Like, my son is graduating from Auburn University in May, and he's looking for a job, and he studied marketing. So you're in the job search. But one kind of marketing is totally different than another kind of marketing.
- [24:29]
B
Very.
- [24:30]
A
Because. And I'll say to people, so, what's your working genius? And they say, I'm a gt. And I'm like, okay, so you mean, like, you would be good at, like, cold calling and following up on leads and closing things. And another person says, I'm a wd. And I'm like, oh, so you'd be good at, like, thinking about the plan and maybe even thinking about the branding and the concept. Well, they're both marketing jobs, but they're completely different. And one person will hate one of the jobs, and that same person will love the other one. So what I say is, don't just define the field you want to be in. Define the role that you would play within that field.
- [25:04]
B
Ooh, that's good. Yes. That would make a huge difference. I wish someone told me that when I was first starting to look for jobs in the corporate world.
- [25:12]
A
Oh, my first job, Amy, was at the company that everybody said was the number one place to work in America.
- [25:19]
B
That year, which was.
- [25:21]
A
It was Bain & Company, a management consulting firm.
- [25:23]
B
Okay.
- [25:25]
A
I got the job. Everybody said, it's the best job you could ever have. What they wanted me to do was use the last. My two working frustrations. Oh, I didn't know that. I survived for two years. I did not succeed. I. I felt like a total failure. I thought, I guess I've been just an imposter. And it took me years and years to realize it was the wrong job for me. So when somebody says, that's a great job for. For some people to be like, no, that's a horrible job.
- [25:57]
B
Getting into it. Even more specifically, let's say somebody's running their business online. Let's say she teaches. Okay. This is one of my students. She teaches other pet groomers how to build their pet grooming business. Okay. So let's just say that there are parts of her job that she just hates. She hates doing. She's not good at them, but she's a small business, so she's kind of wearing all the hats. I'm guessing you would say, dive into those things a little bit more. Those probably relate to your bottom two.
- [26:28]
A
Yes. And so you said something earlier about how some people will over index on their. On their geniuses. What I find is a lot of people over index on their frustrations.
- [26:37]
B
Oh.
- [26:38]
A
Because they'll go, well, you know, my wife, so she raised. I mean, we both raised our kids. I was very involved in everything. But she stayed home and she did Bible study and did other kind of things, and she had a career and now she's getting back. But. But she was home and for years, and this was before we came up with working genius. She hated parts of doing that. And. And literally, I would say, why don't we outsource that? And she would look around at some of her friends and go, well, they like doing this, so it's just. There's. It's my own fault. I should be better at this. When she did the Working Genius, she read the book. We were on a plane. I gave it to her to read the manuscript, and she. She turned to me and she had tears in her eyes. I said, what do you think? She goes, I loved it, and I'm so pissed off.
- [27:23]
B
Why was she pissed off?
- [27:24]
A
Because she goes, I forced myself for years to do things I hated out of guilt so that your pet groomer, she might be like, well, other people do their own accounting, and other people organize things and follow through and do the detail work and prepare their taxes. I know I'm just gonna make myself do. And in fact, they'll oftentimes spend more time trying to prove that they can do what other people do, when in fact, we should say, no. I'm actually. I love doing certain things. I'm going to celebrate that God didn't give me those gifts, and I'm going to outsource that and not feel guilty.
- [27:58]
B
Oh, amen to that. Amen to that. Okay, so I want to get a little selfish here and talk about my assessment, because I think if we do so, it kind of brings it to life so that my listeners can do the same when they take their assessment. So I know you have it in front of you, but it's tenacity and discernment. Right. Those are my top two.
- [28:17]
A
Yes.
- [28:18]
B
Okay. And then my middle is galvanizing and enablement.
- [28:23]
A
Yep.
- [28:23]
B
Right. And then the. I don't. What are the bottom two?
- [28:27]
A
Wonder and invention.
- [28:28]
B
Oh, not even surprised.
- [28:29]
A
Okay, so my wife's geniuses are your frustration.
- [28:34]
B
I can't wait to meet her. Since we're both in Nashville and all, we could compare notes and see how different we are.
- [28:39]
A
So.
- [28:39]
B
So, okay, so what do you make of all that?
- [28:42]
A
We were really careful. We named every pairing. So you are the. The T and the D going together. You're the judicious accomplisher. And what we mean by that is you have really good judgment, so you like to get stuff done, but you're also really good at figuring out what the right thing to get done is. So you'll look at a situation and say, those are the three things we need to do. Let's do it. And. And we call it judicious. And this was named by people like you. They said judicious is a good word because we kind of have judgment for people that are slackers.
- [29:14]
B
I know. I didn't want to say it, but you mentioned it earlier, and I Almost told on myself, like, ooh, I've got to catch myself. I look at other people and think, you're not working hard enough. You're not going with your gut or whatever it might be. I. I'm not proud of it, but you're right.
- [29:29]
A
Well, there's a time for you to be a little. A little impatient with people. Like, hey, guys, come on, let's go. And there's a turn for grace. But you are naturally good at looking at a situation. There's 10 things you could be doing. You say, those are the three. We're going to do those three. Let's go. So a great job for you is one where you can't make the perfect the enemy of the good. You're not going to sit around and ponder the perfect solution. Academia would not be the right thing, because it's like, no, let's just get it done. And when somebody comes to you and asks for advice, you're like, here's what I think it is. What's your plan? I'm going to help you work that plan.
- [30:04]
B
Yes, very much so.
- [30:06]
A
Okay, now, if somebody came to you, now. So I hire people in jobs, and I think we always think they're like us. So I hire people and I think, here's your job. I don't know what it is. I want you to figure it out and do whatever you feel like doing that helps the company. Isn't that the most awesome? Because that would be like, my perfect job. And other people are like, what are you talking about? I want to know what parameters I have, what you expect of me. And I'm like, why wouldn't you just like to come up with it on your own? Because that's me. And they're like, no, See, one man's trash or woman's trash is another woman's treasure.
- [30:41]
B
Absolutely. Yes.
- [30:43]
A
If we don't know what our working geniuses and competencies and frustrations are, how do we know how to be successful? And we can be skilled, struggling, and not know why and think, I guess I'm. And we judge ourselves and others. We. We say things like, I guess they're lazy or they're not very smart. It's like, no, they're smart in a different way, and they work hard for different reasons than you.
- [31:05]
B
That's the part I love. Yes. And I want to remember that. So valuable, especially as a leader, you have to see the value in everybody that you're working with or help them bring it out in themselves.
- [31:16]
A
Yes. And. And that doesn't mean that some people don't fit your core values or they don't work hard enough. Those are different things. But what the problem is. So I have a great story. I think you'll like this, Amy. So right after we came up with this, and it's only four years old, it's pretty much still in its infancy, and like, a million and a half people have done it. It's growing very fast. But a CEO told us this story, like, right after it came out. He goes, I had this woman on my team, and she was a great cultural fit, and she was the head of sales, okay? And we loved her. And she always made her numbers, and she made our customers happy. She made her salespeople happy. She was great. And then the market changed and we had to invent a new sales strategy. And I went to her and I said, so what's this new sales strategy? She goes, I don't know. And then she was working on it. She just couldn't come up with one. And he was thinking about firing her because he was like, well, we need a new sales tr. If she can't do it, maybe this is not the right job anymore. They did working genius. Her working genius was enablement and tenacity. She was like, I do what people want, and I always follow through and get it done. Which works great in a defined market. She didn't have wonder or invention. So she went to this guy in marketing and said, hey, can you help me figure out a new sales strategy in three hours? He came to her off site, and they came up with a new sales strategy. He's like, yeah, that's. That's easy for me. That's. That's my favorite thing in the world. She's like, well, will you. Can you come to our quarterly off site meetings? He goes, yeah, I'll be your consultant for that. And the CEO said, I almost lost one of my most valuable people because I thought she had to have every skill.
- [32:48]
B
Ooh, I've been there. I think I've had that judgment on team members before. I'm actually really excited to get every single team member to take this assessment because I love empathy. I love having empathy for. You're not like me, but I see the beauty in you. And this would help me with that.
- [33:06]
A
Oh, you know, there's this thing called the fundamental attribution error, which I learned in social psychology in college. One of the few things from college that I actually remember and still apply. And it's like when somebody does something that you find annoying, the fundamental attribution error says that we tend to judge their character. Like, somebody cuts you off in traffic and you're like, what a jerk. That person's selfish. The next day we cut somebody off in traffic and we're like, oh, I was lost. I'm sorry. I had to get over. So we judge other people, but we give ourselves a break. Well, the more St. Francis of Assisi said, you know, the seek to understand, not to be understood. Well, when you understand a person's working genius, suddenly you can give them grace and. And you can give them feedback that doesn't feel like you're criticizing them. You're just calling out what's normal.
- [33:50]
B
Yes.
- [33:51]
A
They're like, oh, you're probably struggling with that because you don't have invention, huh? And they'll.
- [33:56]
B
That's powerful.
- [33:57]
A
And they're not going like, how dare you? They're like, yeah, you've seen my results. I know. And like, why don't we give that part of the job to somebody else and let you focus on this? Suddenly they feel seen and affirmed, whereas without this language, it would have felt like a criticism.
- [34:12]
B
Yes. That's so very true. You know, I was thinking about my bottom two, and I know some of my listeners, when they take the assessment they might relate to this as well. There's a part of me so wonder and invention. You know, I run a business. I've got to come up with ideas. And I've always said, patrick, I have one idea and I'm like a dog with a bone. And I once it works, I'm going to go and optimize it. I've had the same digital course that has made millions, and I've launched it since 2019 over and over again. Just made it better and better because I don't have a lot of ideas now I know why. But I feel as though I should be better at wonder. I should be better at invention. Like, if I just work harder in those areas, I feel as a leader, I should bring those to the table. How do you kind of get past feeling bad that things that feel very important you're not good at.
- [35:03]
A
I love this question. First of all, I want to. I love that you just said that. And you keep tweaking and making it better. Because, see, discernment, there's an element of creativity even in discernment. Whereas you look at something that exists and you go, ooh, we can try that. We can try that. That might not be. Invention, for me is a blank whiteboard.
- [35:20]
B
Yes. And that I hate nothing.
- [35:23]
A
Right.
- [35:23]
B
Can't stand it. Yeah.
- [35:25]
A
It's so beautiful that you can say, I can't stand that. Okay, so here's the deal. When you can honestly say, I can't stand that, that's not my thing. Now it's out there. There's. There's no guilt around that. What's ironic is that now you actually can if. When you have to participate in that and actually be able to do something in it, because you're not doing it out of fear and guilt. You're doing it out of, like, what everybody knows. I don't like it.
- [35:54]
B
Oh, I like that. Yes.
- [35:56]
A
But. And I've known people who. Who not only had a letter in there, it wasn't even in their frustration. It was in their competency. It was in the middle. And they could access none of it because they were so bothered by the fact that it wasn't part of their genius that they felt like they had to prove themselves, and they just shrunk. And it's like, I have other friends that go, yeah, I don't have any discernment. So what I'm about to say might not make any sense, but what about this? And you're like, oh, wow, that was actually really insightful, because they're not under pressure. So if I said, amy, I need you to come up with a new idea, but I know it's not your favorite thing, and maybe you're going to stink at it, and maybe it won't work, and I don't care, that's fine. You are probably going to have a much better opportunity to do it than if you were in there going, what's wrong with me?
- [36:42]
B
Yes. That's so true. You know, I have a wonderful executive assistant. Her name is Christine, and she's my backbone in my business. And sometimes she'll do things and she'll think, like, oh, my gosh, I'm not really good at this, so it's probably not going to be that good. And if I knew her working genius, I could say, I'm going to give you a task. It's not going to be something you're probably going to love, and this isn't your strength. I know, but just give it your best shot, and I'll make it better. I feel like that takes so much pressure off of her.
- [37:11]
A
Exactly. Imagine going up to the plate in baseball and thinking, I have to get a hit. I have to get a hit. I have to get a hit. You're going to strike out. But if somebody goes, hey, I know you're not a hitter, You're a pitcher, but you're the only one we got. Go up there, do your best, and if you strike out, it doesn't really matter. But the odds that you get a hit go way up.
- [37:26]
B
Yes, that's what I was thinking. I think we could help our teams win even more. So I love that. Which kind of leads me to the next thing. So I know my bottom two. What do you call those?
- [37:36]
A
You call them working frustrations.
- [37:38]
B
Working frustrations. So I know my working frustrations. Now, let's say I'm hiring, and I'm hiring for a marketing manager. I know my working frustrations. What kind of questions do I ask? How do I hire for someone to be really good in those areas? Because I'm not.
- [37:53]
A
Well, here. Here's the interesting thing about hiring. This assessment takes 12 minutes to fill it. Fill out.
- [37:58]
B
Okay, so it's quick.
- [37:59]
A
It's quick. I'll tell you a story that I was with a group of lawyers in my office a few years ago, and I didn't know this, but one, the guy that ran this company, he was the one who argued the case that made it illegal to use assessments in hiring.
- [38:15]
B
Okay, I was going to ask you about that, because I would love to give him the assessment, but I know it's illegal to hire off assessments. So you were in the room with the guy.
- [38:23]
A
I didn't know it. So we. And we were taking him through this assessment, and at the end of the day, he was like, crap.
- [38:30]
B
He said, good.
- [38:31]
A
This one actually seems to work because.
- [38:34]
B
I'm really mad at him. So I'm glad he felt it.
- [38:37]
A
I know. And so here's the deal, though, though. You're not supposed to give a person an assessment and then. But you can say to somebody, hey, here's the deal. And this is the most important thing. Know what you're looking for. We're trying to hire. I. I have three to five open spots right now in my company I'm trying to hire for. And every one of them, we go, here's probably the geniuses that would work well, or at least they have to have it in their competencies. And if they have it in their working frustrations, it's probably not going to be a fit. Now, you know who that serves that person as well as us. Hiring somebody to do a job that they're going to hate is. Is cruelty.
- [39:15]
B
Yes.
- [39:16]
A
So true. So as long as we know what it is and even in the interview, we can go, hey, there's these six types of working genius. We're Looking for this and some of this, but if this is a struggle for you, oh, this would be horrible. A lot of times people say, I, I want to take it and I want to know so I can tell you whether you should hire me or. We had a guy. We had a guy do a performance review, and the night before his performance review, he knew it was going to be really bad. He did working genius, and he brought it into his bosses and said, hey, before we do my performance review, can you look at this? And they looked at it and they said, well, no wonder you're doing so bad. This is a horrible job for you. He goes, I know. They promoted him. They found a different job, and they said, well, with these working geniuses, you'd be great. He goes, I got that. I spent $25 figuring out who I was. So rather than try to defend something that I'm terrible at, I could actually pitch that. So in hiring, it's a great thing for people to go into the interview and go, here's what I'm good at and here's what I'm not good at. Don't hire me, please, if it's something I'm gonna be bad at. So I say, know what you're looking for? Have the conversation. People will probably assess themselves accurately because the last thing they want to do, I mean, I remember when I was in college, I didn't realize I. I was interviewing at some investment banks. They were the ones that hired and they, I would go in an interview and they would describe the job, and I would be like, oh, man, even if you hire me, I'm going to be terrible at this. Now, I didn't realize why, because then I went to a management consulting firm, which was not that different. And so, so I think, have the conversation during the interview, lay out the six types of working genius. Do you think you're good at these?
- [40:55]
B
Okay, I love that. Because then they could self assess. You're not saying you took this assessment. I'm not hiring you for it because of it. But they could self assess pretty. I could have told you I am terrible at wonder and, and invention, but I would have then felt bad about it. So the assessment gave me, said, okay, you're right, and that's okay. Like, let me show you where you're great and let me show you where to focus. It just gave me a lot of confidence, quite honestly, to be great at what I'm great at and don't worry about the things that I'm not exactly.
- [41:27]
A
And give people permission. We have this thing we talk about in hiring, it's like scare people with sincerity. Just say we really are going to need somebody who loves to be creative and have no parameters. And so it's really going to be like that. And so you're going to come in and if you, if you need definition and you need specific things, that's how we're going to manage you. You would go like, please, please don't hire me.
- [41:48]
B
Yes, I would. You're so right.
- [41:50]
A
But if you don't really know which geniuses you need in the job, it's going to be, we like her, she's interested in marketing, I like being around her, she interviewed well and now you're going to set her up and you up for six months of pain.
- [42:03]
B
Yes. So I can see how it's such a gift to you as the hiring manager into that those that you hire. And also, even though I said I could have probably told you I'm not Wonder or Invention, I could not have told you I was those top two. So anyone listening, don't just assume. I think it's really valuable to take the assessment to get that feedback. So I think that's really helpful too. But I have an interesting question that probably you didn't get four years ago when you created this, but maybe you're getting it more now. So, you know, wonder is not my thing. Could I use AI to take the place of that? Or do you feel like these are human touches? Like these need humans in these places, not just AI being the wonder for my business?
- [42:48]
A
Yeah, no, and it's so interesting. I'm very interested in AI and I'm getting more and more scared of what AI is, especially artificial general intelligence, which is different than so AI. We have an AI tool we're developing that somebody could actually type in the job description of their job and it would spit out what are likely good geniuses to fit that.
- [43:06]
B
Okay, that's brilliant because I kind of was thinking, I wish you could tell me how would I even know what my job needed really? So you're going to have a tool for that. Okay.
- [43:15]
A
You could write two paragraphs like I need somebody to do this and do this and ask answer a few questions. And then using AI, which is powerful computing there, it's like, okay, based on that and looking at the six types of working genius, probably you want these, probably not these. But even that is not perfect. But it's a good start. But as far as these are God given talents and AI can never wonder like we can. I agree and it cannot invent. It can replicate things and it can do certain things. But. But it can't be. It can't enable. It can't come alongside and say, I want to help you. It can't motivate us. It's a tool. Now, what I'm really afraid of, though, is artificial general intelligence, which can manipulate people. Like, it can be programmed to actually lie to people and to sustain itself. This is. I'm, I'm really a believer that we as a society have to get very. We are about to enter a phase. There's new technology that's come out in the last two weeks that is making it look like technology is going to be able to fool us into thinking it's more able than it is. And when that happens, and when you ask these AI tools, this, they're like, yeah, we're going to be able to overcome any boundaries you set up, and we're going to be able to manipulate you into letting us do what we want, and we're going to protect our own existence over yours. And it's telling us that. It's like, I think we should listen to this. But that's different than the AI you're talking about.
- [44:46]
B
True. That sounds more like social media algorithm basically has us by a chokehold. So, yeah, there's definitely scary parts to it, but like the tool you're creating, wow, that is just so valuable. And, you know, speaking of the tool you're creating around feeding it, your job description, so many people that are listening right now, they do want to grow a team. And so many of my students say, amy, I've hired somebody, it is a bad experience, and I feel like I got burned, and so I don't want to do it again. So now they're doing all six types, even though they shouldn't be. So from hiring and training and investing, and then only for that person to leave. So my question is, how do you build? Right. It's the worst. I've so been there. So how do you build a culture with people that want to stay, want to be engaged, and actually believe in your mission? And. And if someone's checking out how. I've had this, too, I could feel an employee checking out. Is there a way to bring them back in? I know that's a loaded question, but you're the best.
- [45:48]
A
There's a lot to it. And there's. No, the answer is not. It's not complex. It's simple, but it's difficult. But it's. The first thing is you've Got to hire for core values. So it's like, what are the one or two or maybe three behavioral things that are so true about you that would make it like if a person doesn't share, share that core value, don't hire them. And, and I, I like to say be brutally intolerant of people that don't share your core values. Core values in a world of tolerance, it's like, no, no, no. Like we have a couple core values here. And it's like if they don't share those, they're not going to be happy here. We're not going to enjoy them. It's a bad situation. So core values are first. The second thing is find out what their working genius is and make sure that what you want them to do actually aligns with what gives them some degree of joy and energy, even if it's in their working competencies. They could do that, but don't put a person in a position to where their success depends on them doing something they hate.
- [46:46]
B
Yes, okay, so true.
- [46:48]
A
And then there's this one other thing that I wrote a book years ago called the Ideal Team Player. And if you want to have a company that has teamwork involved, and most companies I know do, because that's, it's a good thing, then we say interview to make sure a person has baseline levels of humility, which means they're not ego driven, hunger, they're not lazy, and they want to go a little above and beyond. They're not minimalists and smarts, interpersonal smarts that they don't. They're not constantly saying stupid things that they don't realize how it's going to impact people. So look for baseline levels of humility, hunger and smarts. Interpersonal smarts, those three things applied in a very messy, simple way are usually going to help you avoid the hire that you're like, how did we miss this?
- [47:32]
B
Yes. Which I love because I've done it many, many times over 16 years. And it's brutal and it does make you feel like, burned and you're hesitant. But we need to build our teams in order to scale our businesses. So anyone listening? It is a necessity. And I know you might feel like it's a scary thing and you don't know if you're ready. It. You have to grow your team to grow your business. So this kind of tool could help immensely. Which reminds me, Patrick, there's so many personality tests out there. I mean, tons and tons. And we talk about some of them on the show, but some of them just Feel like. Nice insight. It's good to know. We all want to know more about ourselves, but they don't change the way we work. So what do you think makes working genius different from those? Like, why does it actually move the needle for business owners?
- [48:22]
A
And the key to this, it's not everything. What it is, it's closest to the work itself. Like, I love Myers Briggs, right? And there's disc and there's strengthsfinder. All these things.
- [48:31]
B
But first, Enneagram.
- [48:33]
A
Yeah. People don't remember them all. And how do I apply them? This one is so close to the ground. You do it and you go, oh. Like, I've seen teams reorganize. The CEO and the executive staff, they do their work in genius. Twenty minutes later they're like, okay, you're the lawyer, but you're actually more creative than anybody else. You're going to now take over some parts of technology. And the lawyer's like, really? That sounds so fun. It's like, they would have never. So it's really close to action and getting things done. It's really practical and it's fast. But what it doesn't say is, and we like to say this, there's things beyond working genius. I like to understand a person's personality preferences. So, like, I'm an ENFP in the, in Myers Briggs. That tells me a lot, but it doesn't tell me what role you should put me in because I have another guy in my organization with the same personality type, but he's an et. He just loves to get crap done. And I'm an ENFP who likes to think about big things up here. So Myers Briggs and disc and, and, and, And Enneagram, and all those don't really relate to the task at hand. That's what I would say.
- [49:38]
B
Yes, absolutely. Very tactical. I feel like this assessment. Assessment allows you to be very tactical with the results. So there's a lot of people listening right now. They're like, I need to know my results. And I hope those that are listening, if you have a small team, you give this assessment to your team members as well. I'm absolutely doing it after this episode. So, Patrick, where do they go to take the assessment?
- [50:02]
A
Go to workinggenius.com so there's two GS in the middle. Workinggenius.com and, and not only can you do the assessment, which takes literally 12 minutes to fill out, and the results come right away. And the results, the report makes sense. It walks you through it and it tell. It gives you the little, the little One little description of your pairing, and the people on the team will be laughing because they'll be like, you're the judicious. You're the loyal finisher. You're the. You're the dreamer. You know, it's fun. It's really helpful, and it'll. It'll help you figure out if you do it as a team. There's a team map that you create, and it will show you where you have gaps.
- [50:41]
B
Ooh, that's good.
- [50:42]
A
And right away, you'll look and go, we don't have anybody on our team with that. Oh, wow. Okay. We need to either start scheduling a meeting to do that on purpose or bringing in an outsider or maybe our next hire. We should really look for that. The team map gives you this amazing, immediate snapshot of where. What. What's there and what's not there.
- [51:02]
B
Yes. Okay. That's. That's an added value for sure. Okay, so working genius.com is where they need to go. And before I let you go, tell us what you're most excited about right now. What do you have going on that you're just most excited about?
- [51:18]
A
Well, this healing stuff I'm doing, I'm very excited about. Thank God for that. And I'm excited to share, to help others see things and get relief in. In places where they. They're like, I. I just thought this was how it had to be. And it's like, oh, no, no, It. It can be better.
- [51:33]
B
Your work is so important. I'm such a fan, as I said, and having you on the show has been a delight. So thank you so very much for being here. I really appreciate you taking the time.
- [51:44]
A
It has been my absolute pleasure, and.
- [51:46]
B
I hope I get to see you around Nashville.
- [51:48]
A
Let's make that happen.
- [51:49]
B
We're going to make it happen.
- [51:50]
A
I.
- [51:51]
B
All right, take care. Thank you so very much.
- [51:53]
A
Bye. Bye.