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- [00:00]
Host
Ever wondered why the Romans were defeated in the Teutoburg Forest? What secrets lie buried in prehistoric Ireland? Or what made Alexander truly great? With a subscription to History Hit, you can explore our ancient past alongside the world's leading historians and archaeologists. You'll also unlock hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a brand new release every single week covering everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com subscribe
- [00:32]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan Fellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fan Girls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson. And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball.
- [00:43]
Host
But you can call me the Smash Daddy.
- [00:44]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Stephen here has not read Mistborn before. That's right.
- [00:54]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
Hey. Hey.
- [00:54]
Host
So each week you'll get my unfiltered
- [00:56]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
raw reactions to every single chapter. And along the way we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong. News flash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday and you can find Fantasy fanfellas wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:12]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
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- [02:10]
Host
In the Supe Valley, modern day Peru, the pyramids of Caral rise from the desert haze. They're older than the pharaohs and have been buried for thousands of years beneath the sands. Here, at one of the world's earliest urban centers, people built temples, they traded across valleys and shaped a prehistoric civilization. This is the sacred city of Karal Supe. It's found four hours drive north of Lima and was first discovered in 1948. But it wasn't until the 1990s that when Peruvian archaeologist Dr. Ruth Shardi uncovered the site's role as a major urban center. But what do we know about this astonishing site? Is it the oldest city in the Americas? What do we think went on here some 5,000 years ago? Well, today I'm talking to Jason Nesbitt, associate professor at Toulon University and an expert on early complex societies in the central Andes. Together, we Travel back some 5,000 years to uncover how Keral emerged, discuss what daily life may have looked like, and delve into the striking art and architecture that defines this prehistoric Andean civilization. Jason, it is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.
- [03:41]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Thank you. It's my pleasure to be here.
- [03:43]
Host
And it's about time on the Ancients we return to some South America and its archaeology there. And Karao, big question. First and foremost, is this the oldest city in the Americas?
- [03:57]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Great question. You know, archaeologists actually have debated this for a long time. When does the first city begin in Peru? And in some ways, it depends on how you define a city. For some, it's a large settlement with internal specialization, the population doing different things, farming being one, but also other kinds of activities. You know, producing objects, subsistence specializations, those kinds of things that sometimes define a city. Corral in some ways fits those definitions. By some estimations, including by Ruth Shadi, the principal excavator of the site, it was a settlement of almost 3,000 people.
- [04:35]
Host
Wow.
- [04:35]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
With large monumental architecture, which I'm sure we're going to get into later, there is evidence, at least to some degree, that there are people doing different activities at the site. So that's one argument for it being a city. Others have argued that it could be something more like a temple in which people are visiting the site more periodically for ritual activities and those kinds of things. Different scholars have different opinions on this matter.
- [05:03]
Host
I just want to highlight that you said estimates around 3,000 people. That might not seem like a lot today, but back, you know, 5,000, 6,000 years ago, go. That's a big deal.
- [05:13]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Yeah. Coral dates to about 2900 BC and is occupied to maybe 2000 BC or just after. So at this time, you know, it would have been one of the largest settlements of its time on the Peruvian coast.
- [05:28]
Host
So you mentioned the Peruvian coast there. So whereabouts in Peru, Jason, should we be thinking of with coral?
- [05:35]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
So coral is in an area that's referred to as the Norte Chico, which is a collection of four river systems located in roughly 200 kilometers north of Lima. It's the capital city in central Peru. Corral itself is located inland in a valley called Supe and is actually one of many settlements with monumental architecture in the Norte Chico. By some estimates, there's more than 30 sites with monumental architecture in these different valleys, potentially more. And they go from right along the Pacific shoreline up into the foothills of the Andes Mountains which are adjacent just to the east of the Peruvian coast,
- [06:14]
Host
and all dating at roughly the same times, all coexistent with one another. Evidence of contact and cooperation.
- [06:20]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
That's a really interesting question. It's very difficult sometimes to assess contemporaneity during this time period, but there are well over 150 radiocarbon dates now that suggest that many of these sites overlapped in time, again between this 3000 BC to about 1800 BC so probably many of them were coeval, although not all in terms of contact. There's all kinds of evidence for exchange of, for example, marine products. The Corral is located inland, about 20 km inland from the Pacific coast. There are shellfish and other kinds of mollusks. Pardon me, shellfish and fish remains at the site that suggest exchange from some of these coastal settlements inland for, you know, marine products. There are also objects, stone and other materials that seem to come from other areas, potentially parts of the highlands or potentially the tropical forest regions as well.
- [07:22]
Host
Because you've recently been working, Jason, haven't you, at a site really high up in the highlands. So we're talking about in the Andes, are we? When we're talking about.
- [07:29]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Yeah. So the time period that coral develops in is known as the late pre Ceramic period, sometimes known as the Late Archaic period. They're different terms. And at this time, actually a huge swath of the Peruvian coast witnesses the beginnings of monuments. Large. I'm sure we'll talk about them later. But large platform pyramidal complexes on the coast and in the highlands, there are other kinds of monumental structures that seem to be some platforms, but also chambers with central fire pits in them that are found in the upper elevation regions of the Peruvian highlands. So upwards of 2,500 meters all the way up into 4,000 meters. The site that we're working at this summer is close to that elevation and is a large circular kind of monument that also we have some radiocarbon dates that suggest it's around the same time as coral, but very distinct.
- [08:22]
Host
Distinct. But hopefully we'll revisit that to explore some of the potential connections.
- [08:25]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
That'd be happy to.
- [08:26]
Host
But you mentioned these river valleys and Corral being along the Supe Valley. And Jason, I must admit I've never been to Peru. I've never had the, the chance to go and see Carol and. But looking on Google Maps just before this interview and seeing how you have the kind of fertile land along the river valley, and then almost immediately it's arid or it's mountainous either side. It's. It's Quite a striking, at least today. I don't know how it would have been 5,000 years ago, but striking topographically to look at today.
- [08:57]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Yeah, the Peruvian coast and the highlands and actually, you know, maybe later we might talk even about the tropical forest regions. This is a. The Peruvian environment is a very dynamic one. So you have along the coast a very arid, warm, but very arid coastline. That's then sort of, if you look at a map, there are a series of green. If you look on a Google image, for example, you'll see these kind of gray areas interspersed with very green, quite verdant areas that come from a series of small river valleys that run more or less east, west, that have their headwaters in the Andes Mountains and are fed by a rainy season in the highlands that then drain down to the Pacific coast. Roughly, you know, between November, December, January, February. Those months onto the coast and then are the sources for eventually irrigation, agriculture or sort of at the beginnings around coral's time, small canals and things like that that then develop in much later times into large irrigation systems and so on along the Peruvian coast. And then you have again, as you said, this high Andes barrier or mountain chain to the east that presents its own sort of challenges for settlement. But in many ways these are connected ecosystems. The highland rainy season feeds down into the coast and then creates these sort of opportunities for ancient peoples to harness this water for cultivating various kinds of domestic plants, even at this early late pre ceramic period.
- [10:31]
Host
It's interesting because we've done quite a bit on ancient Egypt on this podcast, Jason, and then exploring how there's the annual flood there from the heavy rainfall in the Ethiopian mountains and that goes all the way down the River Nile. And you say they're kind of making the most of those fertile lands in the river valleys. Can you draw a parallel then with the people of Koral and elsewhere along these rivers valleys?
- [10:50]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Well, for a long time people emphasized early in archaeology's history the importance of riverine civilizations and so on. What I would say is that there are major differences. And I remember when I was a student reading about all of the Moche river valley or the Supe River Valley and then finally seeing them, and they're not that impressive at certain times of the year. So they're quite different from say the Nile or the Tigris and Euphrates or Indus valleys or the Yellow river in China. Seasonally they run strong. They are non navigable. Right. You can't run watercraft up them or anything like that. So they're much more in some Ways look like streams and you can cross them if you're on a bus or something and not even know you've done it at certain times of the year. At other times, they do flow more strongly. So in some ways they're similar, right? They are the source for irrigation and things like that. But on the other hand, they're different from the Nile, which was also used as a transport system, or the Tigris and Euphrates, which were also used for the early Mesopotamian civilizations.
- [11:54]
Host
So, Jason, when you go to somewhere like Caral today, archaeologically, just how extensive a site is it?
- [12:01]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
So coral is about almost 65 hectares in area. So it's quite large. I'm Canadian, I use metric. But maybe 160 acres or something to that effect. So it's a very large settlement. And there are others that are from this time period, from different parts of the Peruvian coast that are similar in size. Now, what makes coral interesting and what has excited sort of archaeologists and I think the public, is that it's characterized by a series of large platform or pyramidal structures. There are also circular plazas and monuments, and so those kind of constitute the monumental core. Also within these sites are other kinds of secondary monuments. And then also, you know, the excavations by Ruth Shadi and her team have also found some kinds of dwellings or residences of different qualities of construction and so on that also exist around the site, suggesting a population was at least was living there. The debate is how often were they there permanently or not? I'm on the, on the fence about that, but there is a series of characteristics that make these sites quite interesting. So they're not just big mounds. There's lots of other things going on around them.
- [13:16]
Host
One last question on the context before we delve into that monumental architecture, Jason, is you mentioned that, like, the date for the beginning of coral is around 2900 B.C.
- [13:26]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
thereabouts.
- [13:27]
Host
Yeah, there are thereabouts and 5000 years ago. Do we know any ideas? Are there any theories as to why it emerges at that time? And is that around the similar time that you see a burst in the amount of settlements there are in Peru?
- [13:42]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
There are different opinions about this, so I'll give mine. But I would say that prior to coral or prior to around 3000 BC, there are many coastal settlements of fishing societies. There are even examples of public architecture. Low platforms have been found in parts of the north coast that, that predate coral. So say 4000 BC or even a few that may maybe earlier. So in the Sanya Valley is one example. The Chicama Valley is another where we have early examples of, of public architecture, Kural and the sites around it, and I would say for the late pre ceramic in general, is you do see something around 3000 BCE maybe a little earlier in some places, in some places, a bit later you do start to see an explosion of monumental architecture. So again, the Norte Chico has at least 30 sites of, with monumental architecture. And some have like coral, multiple platforms and circular structures. And then we also see that elsewhere on the Peruvian coast as well of early monuments, not in some valleys, not as numerous, but they exist over a wide swath of the Peruvian coast from almost Lima in the south, right into the north coast of Peru, well north of Corral. And then as I mentioned earlier, you have other examples of major changes towards ceremonial public architecture that are also occurring in the highlands. Right. These chambers I talked about earlier that characterize highland peru after about 3000 BC. So there does seem to be something happening at that time, possibly, you know, at a base level it has to do with potentially intensification of food production of different kinds and maybe a concomitant increase in population as well. But there definitely are things that are, are really ramping up at this time period that makes it so interesting.
- [15:43]
Host
And Jason, you mentioned the words public architecture there. Do you mean buildings that are created that you can see the remains of that seem to have had a purpose where people came together?
- [15:52]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Yeah, basically. I mean monumental architect on the coast, these large platforms that are often stepped pyramidal structures, you know. So for example, the largest pyramid or platform construction at coral is almost 30 meters in height. There are others that are of comparable size, some smaller, some larger. So I mean monuments and these circular plazas as well. And when I use the term public architecture, I also mean it requires, you know, groups well beyond the household, either cooperatively according to some, or maybe more coercively according to others that were behind the construction of these monuments.
- [16:33]
Host
Well, let's now explore some of this monumental archaeology at Carol. Jason, and you've mentioned them already, but let's start. Let's start first of all with these really intriguing structures, especially when you look at drone shots of aerial shots of the site today, which are these circular plazas, and they seem to be kind of dug into the ground as well.
- [16:54]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Yeah, so there are many. So Corral has two circular plaza structures, but as I mentioned, there are many sites in Norte Chico and actually elsewhere where these show up. The Kazma Valley, they actually show up quite early. There are a few examples in the highlands, but the Norte Chico you really see a proliferation of them in most cases, if not all these circular plazas are associated with large platforms. The circular plazas themselves, as you mentioned, are semi subterranean, meaning that they were dug into the ground and then faced with quarried stones. So they have a sort of stone walls around them and then they usually always actually have some kind of staircase that enters into them and then back out, especially if they're connected with platforms to go back up into some of these large platform or pyramidal structures.
- [17:51]
Host
So they're normally connected to another, as you say, kind of a platform. They're normally connected to some other man made large building.
- [18:00]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Yeah, we refer to them as platforms or sometimes in the terminology in the coral project, they refer to them as pyramids. But basically you could think of them as sort of stepped or truncated kind of pyramidal structures that are quite common, you know, throughout the Peruvian past. But they sort of have their real beginning at this time. I was just going to say with the circular plazas, they were probably meant for some kinds of ritual activities associated with the temple. Now they vary in size. The smallest ones are about 15 meters in diameter or thereabouts and dug some 3 meters into the ground, between 1 and 3 meters into the ground. The largest ones can be 45 meters in diameter. And so we can start to think about, well, how many people would fit into those areas, what would they be doing? And one thing that seems to be common for early ceremonial architecture for the pre ceramic period and also for subsequent societies in the second and first millennium BC is that there is some element of emphasis on processions that you're meant to sort of the people that are participating, however they're defined, are sort of guided through that. They walk into these spaces and then some segment of the population can ascend into these platforms and things like that. So there is a kind of interesting ceremonial behavior, I think that or ceremonial practices that are happening in these circular constructions.
- [19:25]
Host
It makes you think of an arena or something like that, you know, the kind of the circular and all the people gathering. And you mentioned that they're made out of stone. Jason, should we be presuming local sources of stone?
- [19:36]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
So most of the architecture at this time period, for the most part is stone and to some degree adobe, but mainly stone architecture.
- [19:44]
Host
Adobe, did you say?
- [19:45]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
In some cases they use sort of a mud brick kind of material. But mostly we're dealing with stone architecture, especially at coral. The stones seem to be locally quarried, so they're brought from the nearby region. I've worked at sites from just a little bit later than this, dating to the mid second millennium BC 1500 BC further north. And this is very common that the sites are built from locally available stone and brought relatively short distances. That's not to say it's not a lot of work, but it's not like Stonehenge where some of the blocks are brought from very long distances or something like that.
- [20:22]
Host
I'm trying to think what else we can ask then about these circular structures. So it seems to be a ceremonial people gathering there. The link to the platform next to it. Do we have a clear sense that they were probably they were open air, that there wouldn't have been a roof or anything above it?
- [20:36]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
It doesn't seem like there was a roof. And you know, I imagine some of your listeners might be wondering, like what kinds of artifacts are found in them. And we'll probably get into this later. But most this is a period prior to pottery. So we don't get a lot of pottery that characterize archaeological sites of later time periods. Instead.
- [20:54]
Host
So as what you said, pre ceramic.
- [20:56]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
So we'll refer to think about it as something like the Aceramic Neolithic in Eurasia or something like that, where they're building monuments. But prior to pottery. There's not a lot of artifacts that are found in these circular constructions. But there are other kinds of artifacts that have been found at Coral that suggest that ceremony was important. So, for example, there are a set of bone implements that seem to be for musical instruments. They have holes, some of them are incised and decorated with. With iconography that suggests that musical instruments were being played, which we would expect there is. It's not as well published, but there are objects that seem to be inhalers for potentially psychotropic plants. But we don't find a lot of material associated with them. So it's hard to say what activities were specifically occurring in these circular buildings. But we can start to infer from other finds outside of them what kinds of things might have been happening. So music, maybe using certain kinds of plants for ritual experiences and things like that.
- [22:04]
Host
Amazing to at least kind of theorize and take educated guesses as to what might have happened there. And this idea of music some 5,000 years ago is a wonderful idea. But shall we then move on also to the other kind of big type of monuments that you've got there, which are these pyramids, Jason. And although they don't survive in their complete form today, they are still absolutely striking and stunning to look at.
- [22:27]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Yeah, there are many pyramidal structures throughout the coast. In the specific case of Corolla, as I mentioned, the. The largest one is, you know, about 160, 150 meters at its base and almost 30 meters in height. Now these pyramids are. Platforms are sort of stepping constructions when associated with the circular plazas, in some cases they're connected to them. The platform itself is ascended through a staircase and then on the summit. This is where they're quite different from Egyptian pyramids and maybe more analogous to Mesopotamian ziggurats and structures like that that they are not meant for. They're not giant tombs essentially like Giza or something like or Saqqara, but rather they are essentially stages. Right on top of them there are room complexes that in some cases get increasingly restricted, suggesting that the rituals that are occurring on the top, these are relatively small rooms. They may have been more private ritual activities or ceremonies that were restricted to people who had specialized knowledge or for some, maybe access for elites or something like that. But these kinds of more private ceremonies versus the public things that may have been happening below, either in the circular plazas or even the space that there's lots of open space around the platforms at Coral and these other sites that suggest all kinds of open air activities. But on the summits, maybe these more kinds of restricted rituals.
- [24:01]
Host
That's interesting because I mean, I might inevitably, Jason, think of Mesoamerican pyramids or so on and so forth, you know, climbing to the top and there being an altar or something at the top being closer to the celestial realm above. But it's interesting to think that if it was something similar at Carol, and it's all theory, I appreciate that, but maybe only the most prestigious or the people who could, the priests or whoever could go to the top and then everyone else was congregated in the circle at the bottom and watching up and watching as it all took place above.
- [24:31]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Yeah, I mean, the circles themselves may have also had restricted numbers versus the overall population, but there are these huge open spaces around Coral in which people could have gathered as well. But yeah, I think that that's right, that there is some kind of specialized collective of religious specialists, priests, or some kinds of. Of individuals that have war knowledge or, or you know, esoteric knowledge that have access to these kinds of upper structures where other kinds of ceremonies were undoubtedly taking place.
- [25:03]
Host
Can we presume, because it seems to be the case in so many kind of these early farming societies across the world that the sun, the sky above, held a lot of spiritual importance to them.
- [25:14]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Yeah, there is a kind of field of Research I'm sure you've talked about on the show called archaeoastronomy. And there have been coral to some degree, but many other pre ceramic sites that suggest not just coral by the way, just to be clear, but other sites as well that seem to have different kinds of alignments to potentially constellations. There's been a claim that some of them have orientations towards the sun is another possibility, different moments. The June solstice has been one claim that's been made, for example. So there is some kinds of designs to these that may be referencing sun, the stars. I would also say many of the monuments point up valley to the source waters where they're crops are coming or the waters that would feed their crops are coming from. So there are many possibilities for, you know, the way that these were oriented and maybe all of these are true, right. That there's, there's sort of a multidimensional kind of referencing to different kinds of features on the landscape and the cosmos.
- [26:15]
Host
So Jason, given that we're talking about pyramids, about these massive monuments, we can't not talk about the building of them like how they were built. I mean, it goes without saying the monumental building must have been a massive task to oversee the constructions of these. Do we have any insights into the building of them?
- [26:35]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Yeah, and it comes from not just coral, it comes from several different archaeological sites actually. From Lima in the south all the way up into the Norte Chico, where excavations have actually found, well, maybe just a step back. The platforms themselves are solid constructions, right. So they are essentially think of it as a kind of rubble fill that's then faced with stone terracing to create the step pyramid structure and then they're capped. The terraces themselves are often covered in plasters of different kinds. The interior fills are largely rubble, as I just said. And what archaeologists have actually found are a kind of net bag made from said local reeds and things like that that create these kinds of loop bags that contain stones, basically bags of stones of different weights that range from about 17 to 30 kg. There's been studies of them from, from different sites actually further south in, in Lima that suggest a that kind of weight range, suggesting that these bags were being built maybe by different kinds of communities that are, you know, bringing stones from different areas and doing labor tasks to both build the platform. And also we also know that at least some of the platforms were constructed in different stages of architecture. So the size you see today isn't necessarily, you're seeing it in its final form, but in some cases they're built over 2, 3, 4 construction stages in which the platform is raised in height. Earlier buildings are covered, and new ones are built over top. And in these construction phases, you find these net bags, which are referred to locally as shikra. Wow. And so these have been found very commonly at sites in Norte Chico, but other archeological sites of this time period along the Peruvian coast.
- [28:27]
Host
So the theory is that the people who were coming to build the pyramid, they were bringing a sack full of stones with them and depositing it at the sea.
- [28:36]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Yeah. And there would have been many, many of these sacks of stones.
- [28:39]
Host
Yeah, he's trying to imagine that.
- [28:40]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Yeah. It's just the luck of. You know, the Peruvian coast is so arid that these kinds of bags preserve. I live in now, I live in Louisiana. And, you know, our earthen monuments here were also built from basketry. We find basket loads of sediment and so on, but those baskets don't preserve. So in Peru, we actually, because it's so dry, we actually get these bags. If people are curious, you can. You can Google them and you can find all kinds of images of these, of these shikra bags.
- [29:11]
Host
Oh, that's an amazing archaeological discovery. To survive. To give you an insight, and do we get a. Maybe it's too difficult to learn just from archaeology alone, but whether it's forced labor or do you think people are all coming together and helping to build these monumental structures?
- [29:26]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Well, so there are many different interpretations. Right. So, for example, Ruth Shaddi, who's the primary excavator of coral, has long argued that the corral is an urban center and maybe the center of some kind of state like polity. Right. Something analogous to Mesopotamia. That's one argument. And going along with that argument is potentially the presence of elites and potentially more coercive kinds of. Of labor forces. That's one idea. There is an alternative view that these may have been more communal structures that were built to create the monuments, the pyramids themselves as symbols of community identity, and may have been done less coercively and potentially with more cooperative spirit. Now we. The argument for that is the sort of relative lack of evidence, at least for some of an elite social class. Right. We don't find. We find some unique burials during this time, but we don't find anything that clearly separates out, say, the internment, the burial of a. Of an elite or a king or something like that. Those haven't been found. Again, there are some special graves. I don't want to say that. I don't want to totally discount the possibility. But so at Least in my view, we haven't found those kinds of elite tombs that would, you know, like are found in Mesopotamia or frankly later time periods in Peru, Moche tombs for example, that have all kinds of gold and individualized wealth. In these tombs we don't find that to the same degree. So there is another view that suggests that these are community kinds of building projects. Now one last thing that something I've been thinking a lot about in my own research is we might also ask if Coral was a city. It doesn't seem to be that there are many such settlements, some 30 so, and many of them being occupied at the same time. It seems like there are many of these temple based settlements that are occurring that suggest that maybe at least potentially coral is one center or one very large settlement of many of different sizes. Coral seems to stand out in some ways, but there are so many that one wonders if there may be another kind of system going on where these temple complexes are linked in different kinds of ways that might speak to more religious or other kinds of mechanisms that are holding them together.
- [31:51]
Host
I know I'm oversimplifying it, but is kind of the rough line in the debate therefore whether Korale is a city, as you say, like a Babylon or a Rukh or somewhere like that, or a communal centre. Dare I say something a bit more like a Stonehenge or a ring of Brodgar or a Tiranaku or something.
- [32:06]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Yeah, I mean there are different arguments, but basically I would say that it is something like that. That there are these arguments that it is urban and then other arguments that suggest that these may have been more ceremonial centers or ceremonial locations and a more dispersed population. To be honest, I have to admit that my personal. I'm somewhere in the middle that there is something very unique about these settlements in this time period. But I can't get away from some of the observations. There are so many of them I think is one that there doesn't seem to be a. That they don't at least in my view sort of fit within what I, I would think of as an urban society. But archeology is changing quite a bit as well. And notions of urbanism are also kind of becoming a little more flexible and so on. But if you accept that there are 3,000 people at Coral, that's a much larger settlement than most that existed at that time period.
- [32:59]
Host
Exactly. And I completely understand going in the middle as well. Sometimes we love to say it's either one thing or the other, but more often than not, as I found on this podcast. It's normally sometimes a mix of both at the end of the day before we move into kind of the lives of the people who would have gone to somewhere like Koral. Jason, is there any other particular types of architecture that we should highlight now? I mean, I have in my notes the plazas, but they seem, from what you were saying, it's not as if they're particularly buildings. They're just large open spaces.
- [33:30]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Well, so there are these circular plazas that are sunken and those are completely built. There are other spaces that seem to be just more open spaces around it. The other thing we talked about and maybe segues into your question about daily life is there does seem to be, you know, Ruth Shadi's project has found settlements, residential buildings around coral that suggest people are at least living there at certain times. There's been really important work by another Peruvian archaeologist, Luis Flores, and then an American team, Jonathan Haas and Winifred Creamer have also found some of these structures at other sites in the Norte Chico. So there is something that people are living around them. So that would be another kind of architecture and one that, you know, I find really fascinating. I'm very interested in people's daily lives and my own research.
- [34:29]
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- [34:33]
Dr. Jason Nesbitt
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Dr. Jason Nesbitt
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Dr. Jason Nesbitt
if you love a good
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Host
story, why aren't you listening to Dan Snow's history hit podcast? It's a show where we tell you every amazing, crazy and important thing that's ever happened in human history from the perilous Voyages of the first Polynesians, the discoveries of Captain Cook, the deadly Viking raids on Britain and Ireland, the rise and fall of the great English kings and queens. We'll tell you how Waterloo was won, the Alamo was lost, and all the history in between. So make sure you check it out. Dan Snow's history hit for the best true stories ever told, wherever you get your podcasts. So the people themselves, Jason, are they overwhelmingly some 5,000 years ago, you know, all the way up until the end of coral and other places, Are they primarily. Are they almost always farmers?
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Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Really interesting question. You know, when these sites. I don't know if just to step back to contextualize these sites. Archaeologists started to recognize sites that we now know as pre ceramic in the mid 20th century, in the 1940s and even a little bit before that. And the original excavators, they found these huge monuments like Osporo, which is located on the coast of Supe, not far from Coral, but right along the coastline. And when they excavated it, they couldn't accept that they had this giant monument but had no pottery. Right. The assumptions of those times were sort of like a Gordon Child view that farming, pottery, monuments sort of go together. And when they found that these sites didn't have pottery, that sort of challenged their assumptions. Subsequent research at these sites then found that there was lots of marine products, fish, anchovies, sardines, shellfish, and argued that maybe the basis wasn't farming, but fishing. And this was an idea popularized by an archeologist named Michael Mosley, who passed away a few years ago, who called this the maritime foundations of Andean civilization. So he argued that that these were essentially foraging populations that also domesticated plants, but mainly cotton and things like that that they used for textiles and so on. More recently, and partly as a result of Ruth Shaddi's work and other work that archaeologists had done, Jeffrey Quilter on the central coast and other scholars found actually, when you look at the macrobotanical remains, the plants that you find at archeological sites, especially these inland sites, is you do find lucuma, a kind of fruit, guava, avocados, chili peppers, squash, beans, small amounts of maize, at least in a few sites, manioc, which is a kind of root crop, sweet potato and other root crops that suggest that they were intensively cultivating crops. Coral, as I mentioned, is some 23km inland and seems to be positioned possibly to take advantage of canal intakes to have simple kinds of gravity canals that would have run off the river valley during the, say, February sort of Months when the river runs strongly, that would then redirect the water for some kind of agricultural system. At the same time, coral has also anchovies, sardines, shellfish, as we talked about at the beginning, suggesting there are sort of a. Also a big part of their protein diet or a lot of it comes from fish. There are no domesticated animals on the Peruvian coast at this time. Llamas and alpacas, that's all guinea pigs, that's all later, mostly in time. So they are subsisting for the protein component on resources of the sea. And then they also have all of these domesticated crops. If I can say one other thing, there's been a really interesting recent studies by a guy named Marco Iseki, who's a colleague of Ruth Shaddy's. They've published a number of things that have looked at some of the burials at Coral and Osporo, where they found in the dental calculus different starches, a kind of plant part that can be identified to species. And they found many of these domesticates on the teeth of these individuals. They've also done stones of studies of bone chemistry which suggest a heavy reliance on plant resources and then supplement it or with. With also an important component of a. Of a marine diet. And this has been verified by lots of studies on the Peruvian coast. And actually I've collaborated in my own work in the highlands on dietary studies as well that show very similar pattern in the highlands of a. In the highlands more of a mix of. Of agriculture and other wild resources. So there does seem to be a pattern here. Now, the last point that a lot of archaeologists debate is that there isn't very much corn at this time period. And this can also be determined by the studies of isotopes that suggest that maize or corn was actually a relatively limited crop. So we don't have a dietary, one single dietary staple, but a very mixed plant diet. Manioc would provide all kinds of carbohydrates, beans, squash, sweet potatoes, all of these would have been pretty calorically rich in some cases carbohydrate or protein rich components of the diet. So they had a pretty, pretty good diet. And that was centered. The emerging consensus I think is far more intensive farming than we used to think.
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Host
Because I do, even if there is more intensive farming than originally thought, I still like the idea, Jason, that fish is still a big part of the diet. And you mentioned that these rivers, like the Supe, they aren't navigable. The fact that I don't know if they're wheels at the time or People just gonna have to carry basket loads of fish up to a place like Karal.
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Dr. Jason Nesbitt
So it's probably mainly people transporting these products on foot.
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Dr. Jason Nesbitt
As an aside, you know, you mentioned fishing. The Peruvian coast, especially at this time period, was one of the richest fisheries in the world. It's sort of fed by the Humboldt current. So there's this constant upwelling of cold waters that creates, you know, millions and millions of phytoplankton that forms the basis of a very rich food chain. There have been excavations, many. The most famous is at a site called Huaca Prieta where they have found cotton seine nets, some that may be almost 30 meters across. So these kinds of long nets, they found gourd floats which would have held them up, they found fish hooks and so on. So these sites that are close to the coast, they are, you know, very oriented towards fishing and then also farming. But they're probably the ones, the people living on these, in these coastal settlements are probably involved in sort of inland exchange relationships bringing these marine products into the, you know, more interior sites. Or you may have a pattern of people sort of constantly moving. The people that lived at coral at part of the year may have lived on the coast at part of the year. The distances aren't that huge, 23 kilometers, you know, if you're in good shape as a, you know, a long walk, but one that's doable. And, and so those seem to be the patterns that are happening. So coastal orientation.
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Host
And of course, you know, we're doing this from our chairs in the 21st century, but back then, you know, they'd be much mobile, they'd be much fitter because they're doing all of this walking naturally. So it's all fascinating. And you mentioned there, Jason, that other commodity, that other resource that we have to talk about when covering this topic, which is of course the farming of cotton. Just how extensive do we think the cotton farming was for people living at Carol and elsewhere at that time?
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Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Yeah, so cotton is domesticated earlier than the late pre ceramic period, but becomes a real important part of their technology. Actually in the old days, this time period used to be called the cotton pre ceramic. So if you read things from the 60s and 70s, you'll see this term show it's not used very much anymore. But cotton textiles were a very important element of their economy. Many, most of the cotton that we find, you know, they could have used it, they did use it for clothing. They used it in some burials as a kind of offering or a wrap. They were used for nets and those kinds of things potentially anyway in some places. And then we also have textiles that are more ornate that were dyed or took advantage of the colors to create very elaborate designs. The most famous examples are probably from a site called Huaca Prieta, which is a bit further north from the Norte Chico, where there's a current project there led by Thomas Dillahay. But before that, Junius Bird, who did pioneering work at the site, found textiles and was able to reconstruct or show a number of different images, all of which seem to have religious significance. So you have anthropomorphic entities, you have depictions of bicephalic or two headed serpents, you have depictions of raptors. And these show up in other media in the pre ceramic as well that seem to be deities or supernatural entities that were venerated. And also a lot of these animals, raptors or predatory birds, serpents, anthropomorphic individuals with feline attributes, all of these continue into something called Chavin civilization. And it seems to have its. Some of these icons seem to have their roots in the late pre ceramic. So these continue in some cases in different forms, but for millennia, you know, into the first millennium BC When Chavin emerges or late second.
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Host
Yeah, glad you mentioned Tom Dillehay there. We know Tom well. He did the first South Americans for us. Wonderful guy, Monteverde.
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Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Yeah.
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Host
And keeping on those textiles and that cotton clothing and the dyes and the color. Could we therefore be imagining people at Corral, let's say at one of those ceremonies, gathered in one of those circular plazas? And can we imagine maybe the wealthier or almost as a show of status, some people having more colorful cotton clothing than others.
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Dr. Jason Nesbitt
It could be that these are prestigious objects that are restricted to certain people much, much, much later in time. I don't want to do one of these like huge jumps through time. But we know that textiles, for example, in Inca times were a major source of value. And I suspect that textile production of different kinds in this time period in cotton with these icons, at least some of it was probably something that was somehow reserved for people that had access to these, these kinds of materials. And in terms of clothing, we don't have, you know, we have figurines that show people wearing some cotton cloth. Corral Ospro, many of these late pre ceramic sites have unbaked, so they're not making pottery per se, but unbaked clay figurines that show people wearing headdresses. In some cases where there's exceptional preservation, we do find elements of clothing, hats, things like that, but, but. And cap or caps, better put. And we see these also in these figurines of people wearing them and so on. So cotton and other kinds of materials, reeds, things like that were important kinds of products for, for all kinds of reasons. Yeah.
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Host
And you mentioned the importance of certain animals earlier, Jason, and now how those art from this period of actual figures. So do we know how regularly they depicted artwork of actual people or do they like portraying particular animals? What do we know about that?
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Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Well, it's interesting. I mean if you asked me this a couple of years ago, I'd say it's primarily anthropomorphic entities and things like that. So meaning humans and transformation or human animal kinds of hybrids or just the animals themselves. And if people are interested, you could just google textiles, Huaca Prieta and you'll find all kinds of these, these images which are really quite beautiful. That said, there are friezes at some pre ceramic sites or such as Buena Vista on the central coast that show human faces and also depictions of foxes. And more recently in the Norte Chico region they have found slightly later than coral, sometime maybe after 1800 BC thereabouts. There's a site called Vicama located in Waura just to the south of Supe Valley where they found friezes that show images of seemingly humans executed in clay on some of these temple walls and then also images of probably a toad or emerging out of the. Seemingly emerging out of a rock or out of the earth that are shown. So there are depictions of people, but often seemingly in some kinds of supernatural kinds of scenes. So it may be that what you're seeing on the textiles is more widespread that we could see it in other kinds of art, including potentially monumental art.
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Host
Well, keeping on how widespread these things were, Jason, a bit longer because I love the idea, first of all, of cotton going down these river valleys and almost fish coming up the other way. But obviously not just that, but showing how interconnected these various places were. Including, Carol, just how extensive do we think these trade routes were? You mentioned earlier, because I want to bring it back to this before we finish your work up in the highlands. I mean, how far away is that? Is there evidence of contact between these different groups at that time, some five, 4,000 years ago?
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Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Yeah, there's lots of evidence. It comes from a lot of different sites. Maybe to just say a couple of words on, you know, what we're talking about are many cultures in this 3000-1800 BC adapting to different kinds of environments. At Coral itself, there seems to be materials that are coming from the highlands and maybe the tropical forests. There were old reports from a site called Asborough of finding bird feathers. They never identified the birds, but mentioned that they have colorful feathers. It was speculated that these could have been coming from the tropical forest. As an aside, there was a recent study from much later sites in Peru that show that tropical forest birds were moving into the coast. There's reports from Shadi's work also of tropical forest birds coming all the way across the Andes and down into the coast. Corral and other sites like Huaca Prieta have gourd containers that have iconoc. So there's no pottery at this time, but they have gourd containers, some of which are engraved with images that are seen in ceramic motifs from Ecuador, a culture called Valdivia that developed ceramics well before Peru, the Ecuadorian coast and Colombia pottery and Brazil. Actually pottery appears much earlier. But the sites, the Valdivia sites that do overlap with coral and the pre ceramic period, we do see some of their imagery, just not in pottery. We see it in gourds. So there does seem to be some kinds of movements of iconography or ideas from the Ecuadorian coast down south into the north coastal and maybe central coastal valleys. In the highlands itself. We'd also see, as I said, a kind of distinct kind of monumental architecture called sometimes called the Katosh religious tradition, which consists of different kinds of chambers, with the most elaborate ones are sort of square chambers, plastered stone with sunken hearths in them, but meant for maybe more private rituals. Some of these Katosh buildings show up in varied forms on the coast, including the Norte Chico, suggesting that some of these religious ideas sort of travel. And then we also see, if you look at Some of the figurines at Coral, or pardon me, at Ospero, these unbaked clay figurines, we see these necklaces with beads, these kinds of square beads that have also been found archeologically at a variety of sites that are drilled. They're very distinct and they show up at pre ceramic sites on the coast. And they also show up at different sites in the highlands as well, suggesting these beads may be exchanged or at least the idea of them being something important are exchanged. So and then shellfish actually we find in relatively rare examples, but shellfish from the coast showing up in the highlands. And just one more thing I should have mentioned when I said talked about Valdivia, some of the sites in the pre ceramic, they're relatively rare, but we do find a very distinctive kind of shell called spondylus, which is a kind of pink, sometimes called a thorny oyster. Those are restricted in their habitat and often come from either the very, very far north coast of Peru or coastal Ecuador. So they're not native to the cold waters off the central coast. Now those also show up at some of these pre ceramic sites well outside of their habitat, suggesting prestigious objects are being exchanged. So there's lots of things that are moving around at that time.
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Host
Moving around. And there's no llamas or alpacas as you said earlier. So it's on foot even between the highlands and the coast.
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Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Yeah, the domestication of camelids is still up a little bit for debate, but at this time, at least in the areas that we're talking about were probably not a major factor. It's sort of a little bit, well in some cases a long way before their domestication or spread into this region. Yeah, they're domesticated far earlier in the southern parts of Peru.
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Host
Last two questions before completely wrapping up, Jason, and I'm afraid it's going to be quite brief, but I want to just quickly ask about the burials at Caral because you mentioned that there aren't many, but there are examples of burials at Carol.
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Dr. Jason Nesbitt
There are some burials at Caral, they're relatively rare. And then there's also a very famous burial at a site called Aspero. Now the burials, at least to my knowledge, and I'm happy to be corrected on this, but to my knowledge they're mainly associated with the temple we don't have on the coast, a real late pre ceramic period cemetery at Osporo, there's a burial of an infant that has some grave goods found with them. So there are some burials, but they're not that common for that this time period. And there are no cemeteries. But we don't find. At least the consensus view is that we don't find burials of necessarily elites per se, although some people, I'm sure, would differ with that view. But we don't find people that are really, to my mind, sort of standing apart. There are these unique burials, but they're relatively rare.
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Host
I'm sure that could be a podcast episode in its own right exploring burials from 5,000 years ago. But you do a lot of work, Jason, on the end of the period of choral and what happens next. And you mentioned this place called Shavin. Once again, this is for its own separate episode, the story of Shavin. But do we know what happens to Caraul? What is the end point for this place and other settlements nearby?
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Dr. Jason Nesbitt
This is a subject that's been a topic of relatively recent research by various archaeologists. Ruth Shadi's team has been at the, I think, the forefront of this. So there was a recent study? Well, there are a series of recent studies that have suggested a series of events that may have happened, that coral seems to go into some. The whole Norte Chico, that this kind of proliferation of monuments transforms after 2000 BC the dating is still a bit murky. There are different ideas out there. One is that studies of coral and Ospro have shown that these sites were at least affected. I'm not saying this was the cause, but were affected by tectonic events. Peru, the Peruvian coast is part of this, you know, area that's, that's struck by earthquakes with some frequency. We also have, and this is probably its own podcast, the El Nino phenomena also seems to have affected some of these sites. So there's that kind of claim that El Nino causes these kinds of floods that make agricultural production unsustainable potentially. Right. That's one argument. Another one that's sort of coming out that I'm still digesting a bit myself, is the idea that there was a period of drought sometime in this, this time period. And this has been shown by Marco Iseki, who's looked at plant remains, who's a member of Rusciati's team, who's at least made the argument that there is some kinds of arid periods after about 1800 BC and that these. At least one idea is that some of these climatic upheavals might be shown in some of the. Not just in plants, but also shown in some of the friezes that have been found at Vichama and other sites that are settled after this time period that seem to be Showing emaciated figures. Or this is one claim that maybe some kind of story that's being told about the effects or the results of some kind of environmental disaster. People can Google friezes of Vicama. They're. They're quite interesting to look at there. Some of them show people with their ribs exposed, which has been interpreted at least as. As starvation, although I would say there are other possibilities there. And then showing an image of a toad emerging from the ground. And toads have this association with water and rain. So it may be that we are seeing some kinds of images or one interpretation that the Shadi team has put forward of these kinds of images as telling us something about what was happening. And as I said, there are other sites that sort of post date coral. Pichama is one. There's another site called Penico which are located in Supe and Waura that seem to post date Corral but have many of the same architectural attributes. So sunken circular plazas, platforms with rooms on top and so on. And at least one claim has been that this is where people maybe moved afterwards. Another interpretation is that this tradition just continues longer than we thought. So this is something I think that's really up for debate. One thing maybe last to close that maybe connects it to things your, your listeners have heard about is there is. I haven't been able to find too much on this, but there is a claim when you see some of the popular press on these discoveries is there is a worldwide climatic event called the 4.2K BP event. So refers to an event that happened 4200 before present or roughly 2200 BC of a kind of global drying trend. And some people have tried to connect possibly a highland drought that occurred at this time period is affecting the waters that come down to Supe and the Norte Chico in general that affect agricultural production. And as I said, there is some botanical evidence that suggests arid periods during this time period. I am not as much of a environmental. I work on some of these issues in my own professional life. I'm less of an environmental determinist. I think there's a variety of factors that are happening, but. But you cannot, absolutely cannot deny that that these climatic events are happening.
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Host
Well, Jason, this has been absolutely fantastic. I've got on my other screen the Vicharma freezes now and they are also incredible. Love the toad that you can see.
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Dr. Jason Nesbitt
These are really unique.
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Host
Yeah, they really are unique. And this has been a wonderful introduction to Keral and the Norte Chico culture. Of course, I said you work on Shavin as Well, so we'll have to have you back in time to explore what happens next. But it just goes to me to say, Jason, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show.
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Dr. Jason Nesbitt
Thank you for having me. I'm a big fan of the show myself, so thank you.
- [61:19]
Host
Well, there you go. There was Dr. Jason Nesbit talking all things chiral and the wider Norte Chi civilization, one of the most extraordinary and earliest cultures of the ancient Andes. I really do hope you enjoyed this episode. It's about time we returned to cover the archaeology of South America and Caral that is certainly one of those key archaeological sites high up on my bucket list of places to visit in the future. So I hope you enjoyed this episode just as much as I did recording it.
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Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
Thank you.
- [61:51]
Host
Thank you Jason for being a great guest. Now, if you want to learn more about South American archaeology, well, we have done a few episodes in the past on the ancients on particular topics. We have done an episode, for instance on the ancient Amazon and how we're now learning more about ancient peoples cultures that lived in the Amazon thousands of years ago. We also have done an episode on the Moche, another of Peru's ancient cultures, and we'll put a link in the show notes to both of those episodes too. Thank you for listening to this episode. If you are enjoying the Ancients, please make sure to follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us. You'll be doing us a big favor if you'd also be kind enough to leave us a rating as well. Well, we'd really appreciate that. Finally, don't forget you can also subscribe to History Hit for hundreds of hours of documentary with a new release every week. Sign up@historyhit.com subscribe. That's all from me. I'll see you in the next episode.