Loading summary
Transcript135 lines
- [00:00]
Tristan Hughes
Ever wondered why the Romans were defeated in the Teutoburg Forest? What secrets lie buried in prehistoric Ireland? Or what made Alexander truly great? With a subscription to History Hit, you can explore our ancient past alongside the world's leading historians and archaeologists. You'll also unlock hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a brand new release every single week covering everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com subscribe
- [00:32]
Back Market Advertiser
AI is transforming sales support and every customer interaction in between. But too often you're sold a different AI agent for every job. That changes with fin. FIN is a single customer agent that works across the entire customer journey. From qualifying sales leads to resolving support issues. FIN works across teams, carrying context from one conversation to the next. Meet the agent, making perfect customer experiences possible. At fin.AI back market is the best place to get the tech you need for the school year for less. Like professionally refurbished smartphones to take those first day pics.
- [01:10]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Mom, your finger's blocking the camera or
- [01:13]
Back Market Advertiser
laptops to write that essay.
- [01:16]
Dr. Matthew Knight
How many EM dashes would you like?
- [01:18]
Back Market Advertiser
No matter what you need it for, the premium refurbished tech on backmarket is guaranteed by the Back Market Promise. Professionally refurbished with a one year warranty and free 30 day returns. Save now at backmarket.com evening buyer's remorse
- [01:35]
Dr. Matthew Knight
buy a new car. I'll be moving in. Let's get started. Sorry, I think there's been a mistake. I bought it from Carvana.
- [01:43]
Back Market Advertiser
You what?
- [01:43]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yeah, great price. I even have seven days to love it or return it. So there's no. No, no Buyer's remorse more like Buyers rejoice. I guess I'll let myself out. Congratulations. I mean it. Buyers rejoice. Buy your car today on Carvana. Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our seven day return policy at Carvana.com.
- [02:19]
Tristan Hughes
Scotland 3,000 years ago and a small group of men approach a settlement. They come intent on violence and plunder. In their hands are an array of deadly weapons. Axes, spears, rapiers, Leather and wooden shields form their main defense alongside woollen cloaks. Leading these warriors is a much more splendid figure, clad in bronze armour, wielding a deadly looking sword and a decorated round shield. He is the leader, the chief of the settlement. They had come from not too far away. This warband had come to raid to steal the livestock of this neighbouring community that was competing with them for these lands. But they had also come to kill. It's this more violent side of Scotland's prehistoric story that we're going to delve into today. A new exhibition at the National Museum of Scotland has Brought together lots of incredible artefacts discovered across the country, wielded for war and violence by people thousands of years ago. Brazen shields, razor sharp rapiers, pointed spears, bizarre halberds, axes, swords, daggers, you name it. Welcome to the Ancients. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and this is the story of Scotland's first warriors. Our guest is Dr. Matthew Knight, Senior Curator of Prehistory at the National Museum of Scotland. Matt, it is such a pleasure to see you again. Welcome to the show.
- [04:17]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Thank you for having me, Tristan.
- [04:18]
Tristan Hughes
It's been some time since we last spoke and that was all about Kilmarting Glen and the story of Bronze Age Scotland for our Prehistoric Scotland series. And Matt, I mean, I love Scotland's archaeology. It has such a rich prehistoric story, and that is certainly the case when you explore its Bronze Age archaeology.
- [04:39]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yeah, absolutely. I have the great privilege to study the Bronze Age in Scotland and share the stories that people left behind through the archaeology, creating hundreds, thousands of artefacts at the National Museum of Scotland. And it's. Yeah, fantastic.
- [04:57]
Tristan Hughes
And you have curated lots of those artefacts into this brand new exhibition, Scotland's First Warriors. So, Matt, I'm guessing from that title, do we have quite a lot of evidence from the Archaeology for Conflict at this time, too?
- [05:08]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yes and no. It's part of what the exhibition is doing is sort of challenging people to think about when do we think conflict started, or what defines conflict? When does two people hitting each other on the head with a hammer or an ax change from an act of violence to an act of war? There's plenty of evidence to suggest that there's conflict going on, but it's obviously a much more nuanced story than that, and that's part of what we're trying to tell with the exhibition.
- [05:40]
Tristan Hughes
Well, we're going to delve into all of that, Matt, but let's set the scene. First of all, when someone says Bronze Age Scotland, when in time should we be thinking?
- [05:50]
Dr. Matthew Knight
So we are dealing with a period about four and a half thousand years ago, 2450 BC. Wow.
- [05:59]
Tristan Hughes
Okay.
- [05:59]
Dr. Matthew Knight
To be slightly more precise. And that's the conventional beginning of the Bronze Age in Scotland and Britain in general. And that extends to around 800 BC, so about 1600 years later, at which point we change to the Iron Age.
- [06:16]
Tristan Hughes
And so is this. I know it's such a general term, but with the Bronze Age in Scotland, is it very much the time when bronze is the metal of choice, when the tin and the combining of tin and copper really comes to the fore in the artifacts that we have surviving
- [06:33]
Dr. Matthew Knight
yeah, The Bronze artefacts are what defines the Bronze Age in general, but it's now generally seen as shifting from what's conventionally called the Late Neolithic. The Late Stone Age, around the start of the Bronze Age is defined by the coming of the Beaker people and the influx of migrating communities from the continent. And they don't, they bring knowledge of metalworking and, and that's when metalworking begins. But they also bring new burial practices, they bring new ideas, they bring new types of tool. I mean, the Beaker people themselves are defined by this very elegant style of pottery that they bring and they often bury with their dead. So, yes, we call it the Bronze Age, we define it by this one material. But actually there's a whole range of practices and other ideologies going on, that sort of shift over this period. I mean, the Bronze age covers about 1500 years, 1600 years. So it's, you know, it's like us defining the entire period from the, the end of the Roman period to the modern day as one single age. You know, it. So it's, I always try to bear that in mind when I'm trying to define any one aspect of it.
- [07:45]
Tristan Hughes
Absolutely. It does make you appreciate it when you put it like from the end of Roman times to present day, just how large a period of time we, we, we give to these ages in prehistory. And Matt, going on from that, I apologize because I feel this is, because it is covering such a large period of time. But, but generally speaking, what types of societies, what types of communities of settlements should we be thinking of with the Bronze Age in Scotland?
- [08:12]
Dr. Matthew Knight
The Bronze Age in Scotland and you know, generally in Britain at this time, in Ireland, it, you're dealing with small farming communities. They, you know, agriculture has been a thing for over, well over a thousand years by this point. So people know how to farm. They're generally living in round houses. And this might range from small individual farmsteads with field systems attached, or it might range up to settlements of six or seven roundhouses. You do get some larger than that. But generally Communities are around 100 people large and they're close knit family networks. They're farmers, they're craft workers, they tend to livestock, they make pottery, they weave textiles. You know, they are settled communities at this time and quite sophisticated in what they do and their ways of life.
- [09:09]
Tristan Hughes
And do we get a sense at this time, should we be thinking egalitarian or do we see clear signs probably that there were, there were hierarchies as well?
- [09:18]
Dr. Matthew Knight
That's a fun question. I Think we definitely have signs of high status individuals that comes through some of the burial practices. Particularly in the early Bronze Age, you have men and women who are buried with really, really rich jewelry or weaponry or pottery or, you know, very nicely made things that not everybody gets buried with. And then even in the later Bronze Age, we see fewer and fewer burials and we don't get such a clear sign of status through how people are buried. But you definitely have items that suggest that you, you know, somebody has a little bit more power than somebody else or someone has a bit more authority than somebody else. But yes, exactly. Whether how hierarchical this society is, it's a bit unclear at this time, but you can be reasonably certain that there's someone in charge.
- [10:17]
Tristan Hughes
And I think we'll delve more into that when we get into the words of chiefs and warriors, as this chat goes on. Which leads me to my last big background question, Matt, which is you hinted at it earlier, the definition of organized warfare and warriors. I mean, how do you separate that from evidence of violence in the archaeological record?
- [10:40]
Dr. Matthew Knight
It's a really challenging question and one that we've thought about a lot with this exhibition. One of the ways this exhibition was first pitched was like the Origins of War. Then it became quite clear that actually first to do the origins of war, we have to define what we mean by war. And that looks different in lots of different ways, places, and certainly very different. When you, when you're faced with the archaeological record, generally speaking, you'd want evidence of warfare to comprise of large fortifications in the landscape, large amounts of weaponry, trauma on human remains, so remains from sword blows or axe blows or something like that. And if you're really lucky, like battlefield sites. And in Scotland, at any one time we, we have one, maybe two pieces of each of those evidence. So we either have fortifications but no weapons, or we have weapons but no fortifications. So we've stuck very clearly with the idea that we're dealing with acts of conflict and violence and some of that might be more organized or not. And the exhibition doesn't just cover the Bronze Age. It stretches from the Neolithic through to the Roman period, because the Romans sort of provide a point at which most people would agree. Like you're looking at modern, the beginnings of modern militarization in Western Europe. It's probably what most people think of when they think of the origins of warfare. But some of what you see through the Iron Age and the Roman period very clearly begins in the Bronze Age. And I think that's one of the really exciting aspects of the Bronze Age
- [12:19]
Tristan Hughes
for us, and for a time before the written word, when you know to do this, you're looking at the weapons themselves. And we're definitely going to delve into that interesting mention about battlefields too. So we'll certainly come back to that as well. But let's go back to the beginning. You mentioned how this exhibition is not just the Bronze Age, it actually goes to the period before that as well, the Neolithic, the Stone Age. So thinking of the times, like those great stone monuments of, of Orkney, Skara Brae and the Ring of Brokka and so on. And is it back in the Stone Age mat that you first start seeing archaeologically signs of conflict and violence?
- [12:56]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yeah, certainly in Scotland it seems to originate in the early Neolithic and we, we have glimpses of this from across Europe and in some places it seems to occur earlier, there seems to be earlier signs of conflict. But in Scotland, what we have at the beginning of the Neolithic is some larger implements are being made. There's also innovations in arrowhead technology. So you have these quite distinctive leaf shaped arrowheads that emerge and they're, they're really very elegant little things, but they're really effective at penetrating deep into the flesh of an animal. But some theories suggest that they were also innovated because they're pretty good at piercing into a human as well. And it's interesting because we have all these monuments being built in particularly northern Scotland and around Orkney. And these chambered tombs contain the remains of individuals and many of them seem, well, have died violent deaths or have seen repeated acts of violence against them. So we have arrowheads that are embedded in the back of the someone and you. So we have a single vertebra that has an arrowhead embedded in it. And you, you know, you can say, is this a hunting accident gone wrong? Is this somebody who loosed an arrow and accidentally hit another member of their hunting party? Or was this shot in anger? And we, there's quite a concentration of evidence of violence on all members of society at this point. Like it seems to be men, women and children are all found in these tombs. And several of them do show signs of trauma from something like an axe or an arrow. So we've definitely got enough evidence to suggest that there's some form of conflict going on, how organized it is, how regular it is. There's some suggestions that say that the people who are buried in these tombs are part of genealogies of particular families. So maybe the family you belong to has something to do with whether or not you engage in Ceremonial violence, for instance. But yeah, we definitely have growing evidence that it's becoming a preoccupation at that
- [15:06]
Tristan Hughes
time, the early Neolithic. So that's between six and 5,000 years
- [15:10]
Dr. Matthew Knight
ago, roughly about that time. Yeah, that's, we're talking around 3700 BC.
- [15:15]
Back Market Advertiser
Oh, wow.
- [15:16]
LifeLock Advertiser
Okay.
- [15:16]
Tristan Hughes
That's pretty early. So that's much earlier than Mace Howe and the likes of our Bill. Ceremonial violence, sorry, when I think of that, I think they're toasting a dead person in a tomb and then they set fire, three people against each other, like gladiators, almost kind of thing.
- [15:31]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yeah, I, I don't know. I, I, I have no idea what the nature of violence, like what, what it looks like at this time. You know, I'm not going to speculate on, you know, exactly how these ceremonies will set up, but slightly later on at around 2900 BC. So we're still in the Neolithic, but nearly eight, 900 years later, we have evidence of two people from the, from the same tomb on Orkney at a site called Queen. And they both got blunt force trauma on the top of their head, which means they've been hit on the head at death or close to the point of death by something blunt and heavy. And it's almost like they would have been kneeling down for that or they would have, you know, the blow would have come from above. And so it looks like they've been violently killed. But then actually there's a, there's a hint that there's something a bit more coordinated about it than two people just going at it with some axes. And, and no doubt that did happen, but I, the Neolithic, I would say, is defined by this ambiguity. I think it's this, you know, you have an axe, but an ax isn't designed for, as a weapon, it's designed to chop down a tree. An arrow is designed to shoot down an animal. A spear is designed for hunting. So all of these objects could be used against another human at some point if you wanted them to, but that's not their primary function. And so you then enter the debate of why are they producing these objects?
- [17:03]
Tristan Hughes
Well, Matt, I mean, I feel we need to do a quick shout out for that amazing, enigmatic set of objects you have from the Stone Age, those bulls, which some people think are maceheads.
- [17:15]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yeah, the Neolithic carved stone balls. They're, they're wonderful things.
- [17:20]
Tristan Hughes
Hugo Anderson, Wymark's favorite.
- [17:23]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yes, absolutely. Whether he likes it or not, they're his favorite. My colleague who creates the Neolithic at National Museum Scotland, he's responsible for this collection and has done amazing research looking into these objects. And they're very, very localized to Scotland. They only occur in Scotland with one exception. That's for whatever reason, I think it's ended up in Norway. But all of them are sort of spherical stone balls that fit quite neatly in the palm of your hand. You know, they're not much bigger than that. Some are very smooth and polished, but many are ornamented with these knobs. And some of them are highly decorated. Some of them are much more uneven, some are unfinished, some are completely finished. And they are. No two carved stone balls are the same. And so there's an awful lot of debate around what they're used for. And there are hundreds of theories, whether they're astronomical or whether they're for like superstitious amulets or gaming pieces or. But one of the persistent theories is that they are used to bludgeon things. You know, that you would attach some sort of bong or strap to them and they could be swung like a mace or they could be hit like a hammer. I think as it goes, if you need something to hit somebody else on the head with, something a carved stone ball works. But in the same way that a rock works as for hitting someone on the head, it's one theory amongst a plethora of theories. There's 500 odd of these things and they cover. I think they span about three or four hundred years of use. Some of them even show up into the early Bronze Age. They get buried with people centuries after they were made. So I think for us to define them by a single use is we like, we can't do that. I suspect that they have many, many uses, but we can't rule out that they were weapons. And intriguingly enough, the, the skulls I was mentioning earlier, the crania that have been hit on the head from this tomb at Queen. The size and shape of the hole fits with a Neolithic mace head or a Neolithic carstone ball. So it's, you know, you can join the dots in many different ways, but I quite like that sort of notion. No.
- [19:37]
Tristan Hughes
And I remember going up to Orkney on the mainland and walking up to Queen tomb and it's that chambered tomb and you have to crawl in and it's not one of the biggest. It's not like Unston or as a Mace Howe or Skara Bray, one of the main places Stone Age sites to visit. But, you know, once you add the story of those two figures to it. Matt also the dog that I believe
- [19:59]
Dr. Matthew Knight
is there as well yes. Yeah.
- [20:01]
Tristan Hughes
And then like, like, definitely visit Kareen, if you get the chance to. And with that context as well. It's very interesting. So, Matt, to summarize this, this Neolithic part.
- [20:13]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yes.
- [20:14]
Tristan Hughes
Clear evidence of violence and trauma.
- [20:18]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yeah.
- [20:19]
Tristan Hughes
Not clear evidence of warfare just yet, though.
- [20:22]
Dr. Matthew Knight
I wouldn't say so. I. Certainly not in Scotland. I think you. Some people might make the case for other parts of Europe, but in Scotland, we're limited to the remains of a few individuals buried on Orkney, buried in caithness and fairly ambiguous stone tools.
- [20:38]
Tristan Hughes
And caithness, that's the big region just opposite Orkney in the northeast of Scotland.
- [20:42]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Mainland. Yes. Yeah.
- [20:44]
Tristan Hughes
Okay. So, Matt, we get to the beginning of the Bronze Age, and you mentioned earlier, defined by these new people coming in, these migrations of people, and what shift do we start to see, if any, in regards violence when we get to the Bronze Age?
- [21:02]
Dr. Matthew Knight
I think in the very earliest elements of the Bronze Age, the shift is not massive towards violence. I think that there was some genetic research done nearly a decade ago now, actually, which suggested or highlighted that there was this, what's called a genetic turnover of the people living in Britain at this time. And many people wondered if that might be a wipeout invasion, invading people from northwestern Europe coming in and wiping out local populations. We now know that the story is much more complex than that. When the geneticists refer to a genetic turnover, it's not the same as what an archaeologist hears as a genetic turnover. It's not a genocidal thing. What seems to happen is several small communities, well, many, many small communities coming over and assimilating with the local populations and the local populations adopting many of the ideas that these. These foreigners bring in. So they like the look of their pottery, they bring in that pottery and then they start making it in their own way. And it just seems that over time, that genetic signature just drowns out the previous genetic signature. And people, People bury their dead in new ways. They go from more like, rather than cremating their dead or burying them in big communal tombs, they start to bury the individual in individual graves. And some of the status of specific individuals starts to become clearer to us as archaeologists. When you find a female grave that's buried with ornately decorated jet jewelry and a finely crafted pot, for instance, what the introduction of these ideas means in terms of conflict and violence, it's more to do with the fact that they bring metal, and metal allows people to do things that they haven't been able to do before. So one of the things that I think really marks A fundamental shift in society is the introduction of copper, gold and later bronze, which as you said, was as an alloy of tin and copper, but it's the first recyclable material in human history. Never before have you been able to make something and decide, that's not very good, I'm going to melt it down and try again. You know, stone tools, you're forever reducing, they're called reductive technologies. And a pot, if it misfires, you have to smash it down. You can't reuse that material. So bronze allows people to really fine tune that craft quite quickly and at the same time make objects they already knew about, but in a new, harder and sharper material. So they make axis from bronze, they make daggers from bronze. And this is not to say that stone daggers didn't exist before or stone axes didn't exist before, but once they figure out how to make a really, really strong material and sharpen brings up that level of efficiency in terms of how they can do certain things and what it also allows. And I should say this is over the course of about six, 600 years. So the Bronze Age, let's say we, it starts around 2450 B.C. people start off making some types of daggers and weaponry, but an axes. But it's not really until about 600 years later that in around 1800, 1700 BC that they really invest a lot of time in it, in making what look more like weapons.
- [24:43]
Tristan Hughes
And like in context, like, because you use that nice example of between the Romans and us today, like for the period, I mean, that's the roughly the equivalent of between the Romans leaving Britain and the Battle of Hastings. So once again, a big amount of time.
- [24:56]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yeah, all of these generalizations have to be viewed in that context of, you know, we're so used to modern history. You know, you're dealing with 10 years here or 10 years there. But prehistory is such huge swathes of time and technological development is gradual and quite stable for a lot of these periods. You know, there are these sudden shifts in how things change. But, you know, the assimilation of the Beaker culture, for instance, takes place over about three or four hundred years. It's not a, you know, it's not like one day someone comes over says, here's a nice new pot, and then everyone makes new pots. It's, you know, it takes several hundred years and several generations of people to shift towards that. And the same, I think is true with adopting bronze. Not everyone adopts bronze everywhere at the same time. You know, for some people, stone was Always good for my grandfather and it's good for me too. You know, they just don't use it.
- [25:53]
Tristan Hughes
And so what happens some 600, roughly 600 years into the Bronze Age, you do see this, this shift in what we might say warfare in, in conflict with the development of new types of artifacts. Yeah, weapons.
- [26:07]
Dr. Matthew Knight
I think the, I would say the pinnacle or rather the key changing point in the Bronze Age is the invention of the sword.
- [26:15]
Tristan Hughes
The sword.
- [26:16]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Okay. Which you couldn't do in any other material up until this point. Bronze allowed people to cast lot longer and longer blades and they, they start off making various types of blades. They have these blades that we refer to as daggers and they're quite, they're what you imagine a dagger to be, a very short blade, maybe up to 30cm long with a handle on it. But these objects slowly get longer and longer and sharper and sharper. The sort of first true swords, I guess are they're down by the misnomer of rapiers and dirks. And most people will think of like a medieval musketeer rapier or, you know, or a medieval dirk, but these look nothing like that. You know, they're just very long, sharp bits of bronze that would have been hafted on a, on a handle and would have been really, really effective at harming another human. And that's, that's the fundamental shift here that I, I see is that up until this point, as I mentioned earlier, everything that's been made in human history has been made for some other function and maybe it was turned to violence. You know, spears for hunting, very good at pointing at another person. Axes for chopping down trees. But a sword isn't good for anything other than harming another human.
- [27:39]
Tristan Hughes
But, but for daggers, you mentioned that daggers came earlier. They, is that, I guess a little hunting dagger, we should think, primary purpose kind of thing.
- [27:45]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yeah, there's, there's some speculation around whether daggers are for harming people or, or not. There's been some research that was done in Italy recently that found the remains of animal hide and animal skins on, on the edges of daggers. So they're, they might be for skinning animals on it. And again, sure, it's, it's great if you're sacrificing people. I don't mean I, there's not human, huge evidence of, of anyone doing that. But you know, if you need to harms, harm somebody with it, then you can do that. But it's quite a. I think one of the things that I, I'm always trying to remind myself of with this topic is it's easy to frame it as a technological development over time. But actually you, if you think about what a dagger entails, it entails you getting very close to somebody and it's a very intimate way of harming someone. Even, you know, even swinging an axe at somebody is quite a violent act. You know, I think the, you have to consider what the, what the motivations for all of this were and we might come back to that. But the. I don't think that it's a given that people take up weapons and then just start fighting or they're looking for things to fight with. I, I think that in a world that we live in today where you can press a button and fire something on the other side of the world, actually all conflict and violence is very, very close up and personal. You know, it's very intimate in that way.
- [29:21]
Tristan Hughes
And so you get the development of the sword, which gives them more reach and, you know, longer weapons. But as you say, this is a time when for the first time, it's clear that something has been made primarily for hurting another human.
- [29:35]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yeah. And it sparks what I refer to as the Bronze Age arms race. You know, I think it's cool. Yeah. It's. If you have a sword or if your neighbour has a sword, you want a bigger sword. Right? I mean, that's the story as old as time.
- [29:48]
Tristan Hughes
He has a sword, I have a
- [29:50]
Dr. Matthew Knight
sword, I have a sword. Yeah. But also, if you can't get a bigger sword, you want something to defend yourself from that sword, you know, so you don't just. The sword doesn't just represent somebody making a pointy thing. It's also, people start needing shields in a different way. They need armor, they need to think about how do they defend their settlements. Also, crafts, you have to decide that this is a suitable investment of time and resources. So if a craftsperson is making a sword, they're not making other tools, though, you know, one sword by weight roughly equates to about three axes. So you decide that you, your investment of bronze is going to go into this weapon. And you can't just pick up a sword and start swinging it around. You need to start training with it. And if you're training with the sword, you're not out in the fields farming, somebody else is doing that and somebody else picking up the slack and feeding you. And I think this is, this is sort of the complexity of the sword as an, as an object. And sure, many of these things may have been happening before the sword, but the sword is the first identifiable moment where you go, actually, people have to really think this is worth it.
- [31:07]
Tristan Hughes
And do we have a lot of swords surviving from Bronze Age Scotland?
- [31:11]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yeah, we, we have hundreds.
- [31:13]
Tristan Hughes
Wow.
- [31:13]
Dr. Matthew Knight
You know, it's, it's quite astonishing that this is hundreds over several hundred years, but it's alongside hundreds of spears, hundreds of bronze axes, which as some evidence suggests that they were used in violence as well as it comes alongside evidence for shields. So exactly what the scale of this was and how many people were fighting, we're not sure. But there's definitely a lot of swords and a lot of weapons. And I said at the start, if you want evidence, one of the key evidences for violence or organized conflict that you'd want is weapons. And we certainly have plenty of those.
- [31:56]
Back Market Advertiser
Back market is the best place to get the tech you need for the school year for less. Like professionally refurbished smartphones to take those first aid pics.
- [32:04]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Mom, your finger's blocking the camera or
- [32:07]
Back Market Advertiser
laptops to write that essay.
- [32:10]
Dr. Matthew Knight
How many EM dashes would you like?
- [32:12]
Back Market Advertiser
No matter what you need it for, the premium refurbished tech on back market is guaranteed by the back market promise. Professionally refurbished with a one year warranty and free 30 day returns. Save now@backmarket.com.
- [32:26]
Tristan Hughes
hey, real quick.
- [32:27]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Since you didn't pay to skip ads, we're going to assume that you like to save money. And for the sake of this ad, we're also going to assume that you have a cat or a dog. Okay? Lemonade pet insurance can save you up to 90% on vet bills. You definitely know that vet bills can pile up fast, which is why Lemonade settles half of all claims instantly super fast. And we definitely know that you just want to get back to whatever it is you were just listening to. Which is why we'll also settle this ad like now get a quote@lemonade.com pet.
- [32:56]
LifeLock Advertiser
Lots of places can expose you to identity theft.
- [32:59]
Tristan Hughes
Oh, no.
- [33:00]
LifeLock Advertiser
That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity, which is way more than anyone can do on their own. If we find anything suspicious, like new loans or changes to to your financial accounts, we alert you right away, all through text, phone, email, or the Lifelock app. Get the alerts that could make all the difference. Save up to 30% your first year@lifelock.com podcast terms apply.
- [33:26]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Best thing that's ever happened to you financially. Go easy. Sold my car on Carvana. Amazing offer, really. I hit 200 on the scratcher. Did the scratcher come to your house and hand You a check?
- [33:37]
Back Market Advertiser
No.
- [33:37]
Dr. Matthew Knight
How many scratchers did you hit to get that? I hit a button on Carvana.com once.
- [33:42]
Tristan Hughes
Okay, that's fair.
- [33:43]
Dr. Matthew Knight
It's like the lottery, except you always win.
- [33:47]
Tristan Hughes
Not like the lottery at all, actually.
- [33:49]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Exactly. Inexplicably good offers worth bragging about.
- [33:53]
Tristan Hughes
Sell your car today on Carvana.
- [33:55]
Back Market Advertiser
Pick up.
- [33:55]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Fees may apply.
- [34:11]
Tristan Hughes
And where do we find these, these weapons like swords? Do we usually find them in graves or elsewhere?
- [34:17]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Generally not in graves. It's one of the great mysteries of the. The sort of later Bronze Age period, this period around 1200 BC to about 800 BC. We don't know where people are being buried at this time, if that. The way that people are treating their dead leaves no archaeological trace. You can think that they're cremating them and scattering their ashes, for instance. You know, they're not building monuments to the dead. So where we find weapons is generally in the landscape, in what archaeologists tend to call natural places. So this is either the top of a hill or maybe in a lock or in a river, but generally away from where you have settlement activity. And this is true of hoarding of lots and lots of different items. But swords, particularly in Scotland and northern Britain more generally, are often found plunged into like peat bogs or marshlands and similar locations. And they're often buried complete and in their scabbards, which is completely different from what you see further south. So in southern Britain, at the same time, people. If people are bearing a sword there, packing it into pieces, and it's usually mixed in with ingots and other bits of raw material. But in Scotland, there seems to be a bit of a reverence for burying complete spears and swords.
- [35:39]
Tristan Hughes
That is very cool.
- [35:40]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yeah, there were exceptions to this and a couple that I guess are worth mentioning. Our general interpretation of these objects is people are giving up their arms, they're giving up their weapons. For whatever reason, you've decided that it's worth putting this sword into the ground. And there's a lovely case from the Isle of Shuna, which is on the west coast of Scotland. And there were three swords which are described when they're found as being point down in the bog as though thrust in. And you've kind of got this vision of three people thrusting swords into this bog and I don't know, giving up that, giving up their, their weapons in this way. We also have cases where people have gathered a lot of weapons and deliberately destroyed them. There's an example from Duddingstone Lock, which is a body of water at the base of Arthur's Seat, this great feature of the Edinburgh landscape. And people were dredging for what's called shell marl. It's good for agricultural stuff in the 18th century. And then they pulled up this hoard of weapons, and this is swords and spears that are all melted together or broken. And there's probably about 50 objects in total, and they've clearly been piled up onto a fire and just burned. You know, some of them. Some of them are really heavily smashed up, some of them are really distorted, and then they've been sunk into this lock in prehistory. And it's not an accidental losing, because the accounts say that the dredgers dredged this up about 150 yards from the shore of the loch. So you start to get this picture that actually people have come together with all these weapons, they've put them onto a fire, and this would have been a massive fire that would have burnt to about a thousand degrees Celsius. They've then waited for this fire to die down. They've then collected up all these weapons, got into their log boat, gone out to the middle of the lock and then dumped all these things overboard. Then you start to think, well, why are you doing that? You know, what is so significant about these things? Especially when you think these are dangerous objects, these represent threat and danger, and you think, is this an act of destroying them so ultimately that nobody could ever use them again, nobody can ever get them back because they've been sunk to the bottom of the lock and even if they did swim to the bottom of the lock, they're not, you know, the swords are so ruined at this point.
- [38:15]
Tristan Hughes
I said the theories abound. And this is one of the joys of Bronze Age archaeology. There's no written records, so the various theories. Could it be that that community had recently, you know, successfully attacked another neighboring community, then taken their weapons, confiscated them and thrown them away so that they can't be used again?
- [38:33]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yeah, absolutely. I think. And there are Roman accounts of this in parts of Iron Age northern Europe, where they refer to weapons being smashed up and thrown into watery places. It's hard to use that as an analogy because there's about a thousand years difference between that Roman account and what we're talking about. But the similarities are really stark. And Duddingston Lock isn't the only place that this happens. There's at least one other site in Scotland and several sites across Britain as a whole, where, if you want to think about the evidence of single events involving conflict, maybe these big hordes of destroyed weapons are glimpses of the aftermath of war.
- [39:20]
Tristan Hughes
Before we delve more into particular artifacts and towards. And the shields, which we've hinted at already, that armor part of this topic, which is also so interesting. Shall we now kind of address that prickly topic of, you know, you've now got the sword.
- [39:37]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yes.
- [39:38]
Tristan Hughes
And seemingly now evidence of organized warfare and people dedicating time to training with these weapons. So the emergence of what we can say as warriors, can we match potentially?
- [39:49]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yeah, I think so. I, I definitely think of them as warriors at this time. I don't necessarily think of them as full time warriors. I don't think that you've got people going around saying I'm not going to do any farming because I'm a warrior
- [40:05]
Tristan Hughes
and you're going to be a mercenary or something.
- [40:06]
Dr. Matthew Knight
I'm going to mercenary, yeah. You, I don't think you've got that. But certainly you have an emergence of a new role in society where this person reflects or this role reflects like the threat of violence. They become very important as like the defender of the community. I think their status is marked out by the fact that they can fight or that they might be dressed in particular costume. But most of this evidence is limited to the bronze material that's left behind the swords or the spears or occasionally you get decorative pins that are associated with swords. And one of the theories is that these are symbols of the warrior class, for instance. But actually what role these people played or how, how high up in society they might have been is unclear. You know, they, they have, they must sit or must have sat at a very interesting threshold in society because to one community they are the defender and to another community they're a threat. And it depends on which end of the sword you're at as to which way you view this figure.
- [41:18]
Tristan Hughes
Well, Matt, I mean my next question in then is, is, is what type of warfare would they be engaged in? Should we be thinking of a community warband going out and raiding another community that they didn't get on with?
- [41:33]
Dr. Matthew Knight
I, I think so. I think that, I think that's exactly the most appropriate way of thinking about it at this time. I think we've got raiding parties that would have gathered together when they needed to. This ties into what motivates people to fight, which is, you know, another big question. But you can generally whittle it down to some very core principles of people are willing to go to war or willing to fight either over resources, over territory or prestige, or I would say out of desperation. And so, and I I think, you know, you might decide, I want that person's land or that town, that community's land. So you go and you, you wage war or you wage conflict, you might decide that you, it will bring you honor or you bring your community honor if you go and attack these people or what have you. But I suspect that certainly some acts were driven out of desperation in the sense of our harvest has failed, yours hasn't, and if we don't raid your supplies or find like a way of trading with you, like our communities going to starve, and then you, you know, you end up in sort of feuding the realms of feuding. But the scale of warfare is a really, really interesting question. And the scale of conflict. How many people do you need to start a war? How many people need to be engaged in fights? To what extent is it an equal thing, like people have war forced upon them? You know, there's not always two sets of people decide, yes, we're going to go to war with each other. And we see that right through to the modern day. So my conceptualization of the scale of warfare at this time is you've got raiding parties of about 30 to 50 people. I can't. I think settlement patterns in Scotland, particularly during the Bronze Age, are sufficiently dispersed, but you would have known your neighbors, you would have had contact with local, various communities, and there would have been some densely occupied areas. But I don't. If you're thinking of communities that are living in groups of about 100, realistically, how many of those people are you going to send out at the risk of getting killed? And how many of those communities need to band together to build a force big enough to then go and, you know, attack another settlement? There's evidence in other parts of Europe that these conflicts might have been a bit bigger. There is a site in north eastern Germany called Talentsa. And this was, this is a river valley that was being excavated in the 90s and people started to discover human remains and bits of weaponry. And over the course of the last 30, 40 years, there's been ongoing investigations into a relatively small section of this river valley. But so far archaeologists have uncovered, I think it's up to around 140 remains or remains of 140 people who have mostly seen traumatic deaths, but also evidence of horses and weaponry and a lot of weaponry that we wouldn't necessarily find in any other context. So they found things like axes, but also wooden clubs, bronze arrowheads. I think I read that there's something like more bronze arrowheads from this one site in Germany than there is in most of the rest of Germany or something like that. You know, if you had to define an item that was being used in conflict, you wouldn't say arrowheads, but that it seems to have been a core part of this battle in Talensa. And it seems that this group of people who were killed were chased up the river valley and just slaughtered and they were left where they were left where they died. It's an incredibly traumatic sounding event and archaeologists have only excavated a small portion of it. So we act. Some people wonder whether this was a couple of thousand people engaged in this conflict. We obviously don't. We only have the people that died there and they are overwhelmingly young men. There are. There are some women and children. I think it's overwhelmingly men who have been. Been killed here. So we have the people who would. Who died, but we don't have the people who did the killing necessarily. So we don't know how many people were killed, how many people survived and got away, but it looks like they were chased up this river valley or routed or something like that. And it's. It's touted as the earliest battlefield in Europe. You know, it's dates to around 1400 BC, so, you know, the. The equivalent of sort of the middle Bronze Age. And depending on who you ask, it has all sorts of connotations for the rest of Bronze Age Europe. You know, some people use this as evidence that we've got a rare glimpse of things that were really normal in the Bronze Age. I don't believe that's the case for Britain. I don't think we have sufficient evidence to say that. You've got bands of up to a thousand people waging war on each other. It suggests a completely different organization of society because you've got to get that many people together and you are talking about an army at that point. It's not a raiding party of 30, 30 of your mates that you've got together with some swords.
- [47:18]
Tristan Hughes
It would have to be a situation. You mentioned how Scotland is. Well, how northern Britain at that time in the Bronze Age, very much small settlements, maybe 100 or so people. Yeah, it would have to be a few of those settlements basically coming together to fight another force, isn't it? Which isn't, you know, not possible, but that's a lot of logistical preparations of lots of warriors coming together for something like that.
- [47:42]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yeah, absolutely. And I think you also have to take Scotland's geography into account. You know, large swathes of Denmark and northern Germany, it's flat and it's river valleys and it's quite transversible. Scotland has those areas across the Lowlands, for instance, but you get to, you've got a lot of Highland areas and a lot of upland areas that are quite tricky to navigate. We don't see, you know, like today there are not, there are not hundreds of settlements across the Scottish Highlands and they weren't in the Bronze Age either. So, you know, even if you have more engaged conflict happening perhaps in the Southern Lowlands, I don't think you can apply that wholesale across Scotland. And then you have the hundreds of islands and, you know, you get into the realms of. Well, actually, if you want to mount an attack on somebody, you have to get everyone into a boat and sail across some quite dangerous stretches of water.
- [48:53]
Back Market Advertiser
Back market is the best place to get the tech you need for the school year for less. Like professionally refurbished smartphones to take those first day pics.
- [49:01]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Mom, your finger's blocking the camera or
- [49:04]
Back Market Advertiser
laptops to write that essay.
- [49:07]
Dr. Matthew Knight
How many EM dashes would you like?
- [49:09]
Back Market Advertiser
No matter what you need it for, the premium refurbished tech on back market is guaranteed by the back market promise. Professionally refurbished with a one year warranty and four free 30 day returns. Save now@backmarket.com Lots of places can expose
- [49:25]
LifeLock Advertiser
you to identity theft.
- [49:26]
Tristan Hughes
Oh, no.
- [49:27]
LifeLock Advertiser
That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity, which is way more than anyone can do on their own. If we find anything suspicious, like new loans or changes to your financial accounts, we alert you right away all through text, phone, email or the LifeLock app. Get the alerts that could make all the difference. Save up to 30% your first year. @lifelock.com podcast terms apply.
- [50:08]
Tristan Hughes
I do wonder if warriors from certain communities. This is all speculation now, but we know how like with the Highlanders later on and the Klansmen and how they were renowned as some of the fierce fighters.
- [50:18]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yeah.
- [50:19]
Tristan Hughes
In Britain and beyond. I do wonder whether that had been similar in the Bronze Age, that maybe one or two communities spread out in the Highlands, but their fame, you know, was carried through people that actually the people who trained with the sword there or their warriors were not to be messed with because they were more fierce than those from the loaders. Who knows?
- [50:38]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yeah, I don't. I mean, I, I love make. I love coming up with ideas around this. I mean, it's one of the things I find really liberating about prehistory is that provided you've got the evidence, you can, you can start to think about all these different ways that society could happen. It's not, you know, I don't find the lack of writing a hindrance. I find it much more of a freedom. So that you can say, actually in some communities around the world, or in part Scotland at different times, this is how they were seen or feared or revered. And there was this, like, cult of the Highlander or, you know, any of these, any of these speculative elements. You have to make sure you ground it in some sort of archaeological evidence. But then, you know, we can't just project one singular, singular idea of how we think society operated.
- [51:32]
Tristan Hughes
Absolutely. I'm glad we took that little segue into Lenz, because we've never done story of that Bronze Age battlefield. But if you, the listener, if you'd like us to do it in the future, then send us a message. Leave a comment on the podcast. If we get enough, then we will certainly do the story of the Bronze Age battlefield to Lenza because it's such a great story.
- [51:51]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Can I put my vote for it?
- [51:52]
Tristan Hughes
Okay, yeah. But as you say, getting back to the archaeological evidence, and we've talked about the swords and the idea that warfare seems to emerge in the Bronze Age in the form of raiding 30 to 50 men, you're saying, against a nearby settlement. That idea either out of desperation or getting resources and, and so on and so forth. But let's talk about armor, because this isn't a blue painted warrior, you know, just with a loincloth, going into battle as a berserker with a shield and nothing else. We also have armor.
- [52:31]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Well, we have, we have bits of armor. We. In Scotland, we have. We have no evidence of armor at this time. What we do have are shields. But in other parts of Europe, armor exists. You have bronze cuirasses or you have bronze helmets. You have bronze greaves for protecting your shins, for instance. And I think it's reasonable to assume that people weren't just going into battle in a. In a tunic, in a cloth tunic. I think that these were skilled leather workers. You know, they. Leather was incredibly important to people, and they were able to make really hard leather. And we have evidence of hardened leather shields from around this time. One rare example from. From Ireland, but none from Scotland. And I think two wooden shields from Ireland as well, but again, none from Scotland. But we can assume that people wanted to defend themselves. The evidence that we have from Scotland is the shield and particularly bronze shields. These are honestly some of my favorite objects from Bronze Age Europe. They're so spectacular. They're just, They're a Single piece of bronze that's been hammered out to about 60-70 cm large. Some are a bit smaller, but Most are around 60 cm big round shields. And they're often ornately decorated. They will have concentric rings of ribs and bosses individually hammered in. There's one from Scotland, from an area called Beath in North Ayrshire on the west of Scotland, that has 9,000 bosses hammered into it. 29 alternating rows of ribs and bosses. It's a spectacular looking object and there would have been a handle that got riveted onto the back and a central boss that would have been indented for receiving the hand of the person holding the shield. Generally, people have considered that these shields were, were too flimsy for use in battle. They were, they weren't effective at deflecting blows. They were seen as ceremonial. There's about 10 of these known from Scotland and about 50 in total known from Britain. But recent experiments, or rather experiments with replicas in the last 20 years or so have shown that they're really effective at defecting blows. You know, some of the characteristics that make them so spectacular and make them quite fragile as objects in the, as archaeological objects also helps give you some of those defensive properties that you really want. So the flexibility of the shield and the bronze actually helps absorb the blows of swords and spears. It helps you deflect these things away. The shield itself is strengthened by those alternating ribs that I, that I mentioned earlier. And research into this by various scholars has shown that actually if a sword hits one of these shields or a spear hits one of these shields, it often glances off and leaves a very, very small scratch. It very rarely leaves like a huge sword dent or huge spear dent. And when you start looking for these tiny scratches, you start to find them. And that starts to suggest to us that these shields are definitely, definitely used in some conflicts. How many, how often is, is unclear. But some of, some of them do have the whacking great spear marks in them. You know, some of them have been really, really battered and others have much more subtle dents from, from, you know, a rim catching a sword edge or something like that. So it's, and it completely, I think it helps shape your idea of what a warrior is looking like at this time. And I would say when we were talking about, talking earlier about class and status and whether you've got elite figures, for instance, I think these bronze shields really mark out a person because if you think they're in use for several hundred years and we've only got 10 from Scotland, you Know, you might be looking at very, very few people who have access to these. They're really, really hard to make. Maybe most people had a wooden or leather shield. Those might have been much more common. But wood and leather don't survive very well in the ground for 3,000 years, whereas bronze survives much better. So our archaeological picture is skewed, but we know that there were enough of these things around that many people had access to them.
- [57:15]
Tristan Hughes
Yeah. Matt, it is fascinating to think that could there have been one or two members of one of those warbands which had that more ornate arms and armor to very much signify to their followers and also to the people they're attacking, that they're more powerful, that they're one of the, shall I say the word, chiefs of that society?
- [57:36]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yeah. I think having access to these objects, being able to show that you know how to use them, it was a really powerful statement in the Bronze Age. It's a statement that has these long lasting effects. You know, I think even through to the modern day, we still dress the, the top people of the military in particular decorative arms or armor or with particular types of jewelry that marks them out as sort of of a special rank. And I think for me, what's special about exploring this topic is all of that started in the Bronze Age. You know, your first proper evidence for this comes in the Bronze Age.
- [58:23]
Tristan Hughes
Do we see much impact of this warfare on Scotland? I mean, what do you think is the real impact of this warfare, this very early warfare back in Bronze Age Scotland?
- [58:33]
Dr. Matthew Knight
I think that any impact of these conflicts is invisible to us, but it would have been nonetheless completely devastating to anyone who was present at that time. I think it's a whole other thing to think about in terms of not just getting obsessed with the warriors and the people doing the fighting, but the people who had to deal with the fallout of war, the people who were displaced by war, who lost their homes, who lost their loved ones. All of it is archaeologically invisible to us, I would say. You don't have war. The evidence of war torn communities. And that is the brutal reality of war, unfortunately, and conflict. And again, that starts in the Bronze Age.
- [59:15]
Tristan Hughes
Matt. It is such a fascinating time period. And your brand new exhibition at the National Museum of Scotland that you have curated shines a light on this more violent side of Scotland's prehistoric communities.
- [59:28]
Dr. Matthew Knight
It is called Scotland's First Warriors.
- [59:31]
Tristan Hughes
Fantastic. And it's on for some time, if I remember rightly.
- [59:34]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Yeah, it opens on the 27th June, 2026 and it closes on the 17th May 2027 but I'll certainly make time
- [59:43]
Tristan Hughes
to come up there. I always love visiting the National Museum of Scotland and it promises to be a really, really good exhibition. Shining a light on amazing Bronze Age archaeology and Stone Age and Iron Age from north of the border from Scotland today. Matt it just goes for me to say thank you so much much for taking the time to come on the show.
- [60:01]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Thank you Justin.
- [60:06]
Tristan Hughes
Well, there you go. There was Dr. Matthew Knight from the National Museum of Scotland talking all things Scotland's first Warriors. His new exhibition at the National Museum of Scotland, Scotland's first warriors sounds really, really interesting. I'm hoping to get up there in the coming months. I always like going back up to Edinburgh where I I did my university degree once every few months, every year. So I'll certainly be popping in to have a look at that brand new exhibition, the shields, the swords, those bizarre halberds and so much more. Really do hope you enjoyed the episode. We will put a link in the show notes to other episodes we've done about prehistoric Scotland. We've done one on the brochs of Iron Age Scotland, but we'll also put a link to our episode on Orkney and its amazing Stone Age remains. You can find links to those episodes in the show notes now. If you've been enjoying the ancients, please make sure to follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us. You'll be doing us a big favor if you'd be kind enough to leave us a rating as well. Well, we'd really appreciate that. Don't forget, you can also sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week. Sign up@historyhit.com subscribe. That's all from me. I'll see you in the next episode.
- [61:36]
LifeLock Advertiser
Premier Hosts on VRBO deliver quality vacation rental stays with fast responses and clear instructions.
- [61:41]
Dr. Matthew Knight
Oh, I had a question, our host replied. Super quick premier move. Wish I had a Premier group chat. They won't even write me back. Book a top rated stay with a Premier host if you know you've Erbo.
- [61:51]
LifeLock Advertiser
You're great at protecting your data, but lots of places could still expose you to identity theft.
- [61:56]
Dr. Matthew Knight
I thought it was safe.
- [61:57]
LifeLock Advertiser
If that happens, Lifelock gives you a US based restoration agent who will stick by your side from start to finish. Phone calls, filing documentation, preparing insurance claims. Your agent handles it all. In fact, we're so confident restoration is guaranteed for your money back. Isn't it nice to have someone like that on your side. Save up to 30% your first year@lifelock.com podcast terms apply.