Leonidas: King of Sparta, Hero of Thermopylae

Summary

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The Ancients – Leonidas: King of Sparta, Hero of Thermopylae

Host: Tristan Hughes
Guest: Dr. Andrew Bayliss, Associate Professor in Greek History, University of Birmingham
Release Date: March 22, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, host Tristan Hughes and guest Dr. Andrew Bayliss delve into the fascinating true story of Leonidas, King of Sparta. The discussion aims to separate myth from reality—exploring Leonidas’ elusive early life, his family’s tumultuous royal politics, his ascent to the throne, and his legendary stand at Thermopylae. With help from ancient sources and modern scholarship, the episode seeks to reconstruct the man behind the legend, highlight the historical context, and parse the evolving legacy that has immortalized Leonidas in Western culture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Historical Leonidas: Sources and Challenges

• Scarcity and Bias of Sources:
  • Most information about Leonidas comes from Herodotus, who writes 50 years after Thermopylae and relies on official Spartan accounts, possibly even interviews with Leonidas’ wife, Gorgo. (07:02)
  • Later sources (Diodorus, Plutarch) add colorful anecdotes but focus almost exclusively on Thermopylae.
  • Archaeological evidence for Leonidas is “pretty slight,” lacking coinage or direct inscriptions. (08:41)
  • The so-called “Leonidas Statue” was simply a heroic Spartan figure nicknamed after him, but not an actual likeness. (09:03)
• Notable Quote:
  • “You sort of have to dig around and find the backstory in earlier stories about the Spartans.” – Dr. Andrew Bayliss (05:34)

2. Leonidas’ Family and Spartan Royal Politics

• Birth and Parentage:
  • Leonidas was born into the senior Aegeid royal house; his father Anaxandridas’ complicated family structure led to multiple sons by two wives.
  • Half-brother Cleomenes was born to a different mother, while Leonidas and his brothers Doreus and Cleombrotus shared the first wife. (11:33)
• Sparta’s Dual Monarchy (Diarchy):
  • Sparta was ruled by two kings from separate royal houses, with theoretically equal powers. (12:08)
  • “It’s a diarchy. What a word.” – Tristan Hughes (12:11)
• Close-Kin Marriage:
  • Uncles and nieces commonly intermarried to keep wealth in the family; Leonidas would later marry his niece, Gorgo. (14:22)
• Royal Training:
  • Only non-heir kings, like Leonidas, went through the brutal Spartan upbringing (the agoge), gaining respect among fellow citizens. Cleomenes, as immediate heir, was likely exempt. (16:53, 18:27)
• Notable Insight:
  • Leonidas’ training made him “one of the guys,” potentially increasing his popularity, but also marking him as a potential threat in royal rivalries. (28:04)

3. Cleomenes’ Reign and Family Turmoil

• Cleomenes as King:
  • Eldest half-brother Cleomenes continued his father’s anti-tyrannical policies but developed a “reputation for not following the rules,” including religious impiety and bribery scandals. (21:47, 28:51)
  • His role in removing Athenian tyrants (esp. Hippias) is highlighted as a key moment in Greek inter-polis politics. (23:06)
• Brothers’ Fates:
  • Middle brother Doreus, feeling slighted, led failed colonial expeditions and died in southern Italy. (29:16–30:00)
  • The tumultuous end of Cleomenes: after exile and causing unrest, he’s found dead—allegedly by suicide, but suspicions linger that Leonidas (and possibly Gorgo) were involved. (33:04)
• Leonidas’ Marriage:
  • Succeeds Cleomenes and marries his niece, Gorgo, further consolidating family power. (34:06)

4. Leonidas as King: Context and Build-Up to Thermopylae

• Accession and Political Climate:
  • Leonidas inherits a fractured political landscape: one king is dead, another (Demaratus) fled to Persia. (35:32)
  • His rise came as a surprise, even to himself—being the third brother, he “would have had, would have thought, very little chance of becoming king.” (20:55)
• Limited Early Impact:
  • There is a “void in our sources” regarding Leonidas’ decade-long rule prior to Thermopylae; he likely wasn’t in command during earlier Greek defenses. (38:25)
  • Suggestion is that he may have commanded in some campaigns, which might explain later respect shown by Greek forces. (46:09)

5. The Battle of Thermopylae: Reality vs. Legend

• Strategic Setting:
  • Thermopylae (“Hot Gates”) chosen as natural choke point during the Persian invasion of Xerxes (480 BC).
  • Only 300 Spartans (with several thousand Greek allies) sent due to religious festivals (Olympics, Carnea), although the historicity and timing is debated. (41:16)
• Leonidas’ Role and Attitude:
  • Led the defense personally, fighting at the front line like every hoplite. (46:06)
  • The episode questions whether the small force was a “suicide squad” or the result of logistics/political confusion. (42:16)
• Famous Quotes and Attribution:
  • Many of Leonidas’ legendary sayings (e.g., “Molon labe” - “Come and get them”; “Come back with your shield or on it”) are from later sources like Plutarch, not Herodotus, and likely later inventions. (43:30, 44:22, 52:26)
  • “For my purpose, I’m taking enough.” – Leonidas’ alleged reply to the ephors about the size of his force. (43:30)
• The Battle Unfolds:
  • Greek position eventually flanked due to betrayal by Ephialtes.
  • Leonidas orders most allies to withdraw, choosing to fight and die with his men, seeking “great renown” akin to Homeric heroes. (54:00)
  • Ferocious last stand; Leonidas dies amid the fighting, his body fiercely contested before being seized by the Persians, who behead it in vengeance. (57:39, 58:28)
• Oracles and Prophecy:
  • The Spartans purportedly received an oracle: “Sparta will fall or a Spartan king will die”—potentially leading to a conscious sacrificial act by Leonidas. (59:53)
• Aftermath:
  • Leonidas’ remains (eventually including his head) later retrieved and returned to Sparta, becoming the focus of a hero cult. (59:17, 61:29)

6. The Legacy of Leonidas: Cult, Memory, and Modern Reception

• Cult in Sparta:
  • A hero cult for Leonidas emerges relatively quickly, though archaeological connections are tenuous. (61:29, 62:27)
• Memory Across the Ancient World:
  • Reputation of Spartans and Leonidas morphs over time, with stories becoming further mythologized and even confused; e.g. some medieval legends depict Leonidas as king of Athens. (63:00)
  • Romans revived “Leonidas Games” ahead of eastern campaigns, casting themselves as inheritors of the Spartan legacy. (63:46)
• Modern Cultural Impact:
  • Leonidas’ story revived in Richard Glover’s 18th-century epic, popular across Europe; 20th-century militaries at Stalingrad, both Soviet and German, likened themselves to his stand. (64:32)
  • In contemporary times, legend is renewed by Frank Miller’s graphic novel and Zack Snyder’s film 300, as well as the influential Gates of Fire novel by Steven Pressfield. (67:21–68:40)
• Closing Reflection:
  • “Whenever people see the Spartans at Thermopylae as the good guys, [Leonidas] will be painted as the leader of the good guys, the great hero who sacrificed himself.” – Dr. Andrew Bayliss (68:47)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On source limitations:
  • “How much can we trust anything with Sparta?” – Dr. Andrew Bayliss (07:02)
• On dueling royal lines:
  • “It is a wonderful word. And I often say to people, alright, name another diarchy.” – Dr. Andrew Bayliss (12:13)
• On Spartan education:
  • “The boys are just grouped into batches that some of the primary sources call herds.” – Dr. Andrew Bayliss (16:53)
• On the family dynamics:
  • “Maybe he was smart enough to realize that if he lurked around in Sparta, he might get somewhere with this.” – Dr. Andrew Bayliss on why Leonidas didn’t leave like Doreus (30:14)
• On Thermopylae strategy:
  • “So the strategy was trying to block them up in narrow spaces so they could nullify their numbers.” – Dr. Andrew Bayliss (39:01)
• On the creation of legend:
  • “Herodotus liked to show how clever he was. He liked to show his maths. He often got that wrong. But he was trying.” – Dr. Andrew Bayliss (08:16)
• On modern memory:
  • “There’s a direct link between The 300 Spartans and Frank Miller’s graphic novel 300. Frank Miller…watched it with his dad.” (67:50)
• On Leonidas’ enduring legacy:
  • “Both the Soviets and the Germans were casting themselves as like Leonidas and the 300 Spartans.” (64:11)

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Critical Moments & Timestamps

• Leonidas in the Sources: 06:19–08:55
• Spartan Royal Family Dynamics: 10:05–11:47
• Spartan Dual Monarchy & Upbringing: 12:08–16:53
• Cleomenes’ Reign and Downfall: 21:47–34:03
• The Accession of Leonidas: 34:06–37:38
• Pre-Thermopylae Politics: 38:25–39:35
• The Battle of Thermopylae: 41:16–58:28
• Aftermath, Cult, and Legacy: 59:17–64:32
• Modern Cultural Impact: 67:11–68:47

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Conclusion

This episode offers a richly layered examination of Leonidas, blending scholarly caution with the dramatic allure of ancient legend. Dr. Bayliss and Tristan Hughes underscore how little is truly certain about Leonidas outside Thermopylae, but also how powerful his myth has become in shaping modern notions of heroism, sacrifice, and Western identity. From the politics of Spartan kingship to the global pop cultural phenomenon of “THIS IS SPARTA,” listeners come away with a nuanced appreciation for both the historical and the symbolic Leonidas.

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Transcript

[Tristan Hughes]

Ever wondered why the Romans were defeated in the Teutoburg Forest? What secrets lie buried in prehistoric Ireland? Or what made Alexander truly great? With a subscription to History Hit, you can explore our ancient past alongside the world's leading historians and archaeologists. You'll also unlock hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a brand new release every single week covering everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com subscribe

[Hayden]

howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan Fellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fan Girls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.

[Stephen]

And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball. But you can call me the Smash Daddy.

[Hayden]

And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Stephen here has not read Mistborn before.

[Stephen]

That's right.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Hey hey.

[Stephen]

So each week you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.

[Hayden]

And along the way we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.

[Stephen]

Newsflash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find Fantasy Fanfellas wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Tristan Hughes]

Late summer 480 BC and a massive Persian army, more than a hundred thousand strong, approaches the gates of Thermopylae. A narrow pass with mountains to its south and a gulf of water to its north. Get through this pass and the road to great cities like Athens lies open for the Persian kings Xerxes and his mighty host. But in their way stands an army, tiny in comparison but determined to block the pass, commanded by a figure who had become steeped in legend. Leonidas, King of Sparta, hero of Thermopylae. Thanks to the ancient Greek historian Herodotus, Frank Miller's 300 comic series and two Hollywood films, today most of us carry a ready made image of Leonidas as a fearless warrior king, hurling himself against endless ranks of Persian soldiers. But who was the real Leonidas before all of the glory, all of the legend? How much actually survives about him? In today's episode, we peel back these layers of legend to explore the complicated world which shaped him and the twisted and tragic politics in his family, Sparta's royal Aegeid dynasty. We'll look at the reign of his half brother Cleomenes. The scandals, the alleged madness and the political rupture that ultimately opened the way for Leonidas to rule. And then of course, we march to Thermopylae. Leonidas, finest hour during the climax of the Greco Persian wars. Welcome to the ancients. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host and this is the story of Leonidas. Our guest is Dr. Andrew Bayliss, Associate professor in Greek History at the University of Birmingham and the author of the Rise and Fall of an Ancient Superpower. Andrew, what a pleasure it is to have you back on the podcast. It has been too long.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Thank you. It's brilliant to be here again to talk about.

[Tristan Hughes]

He is the most famous, the legendary Spartan king Leonidas. And he has become something of an icon today purely because of the battle of Thermopylae.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Absolutely. If you think of Sparta, you think of Thermopylae, you think of Leonidas. They all go together as one package.

[Tristan Hughes]

But as we're going to be covering his whole story today, there is so much more to his tale than just Thermopylae.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yes and no.

[Tristan Hughes]

As in because is this a figure shrouded in quite a bit of mystery?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

I would say for sure in terms of lack of sources, most of the sources we have are talking entirely about the Battle of Thermopylae. So it's almost like the Onidas appears out of nowhere, but you sort of have to dig around and find the backstory in the earlier stories about the Spartans.

[Tristan Hughes]

Is it understanding more about Sparta as a state and how Sparta acted as a people to kind of learn more about what Leonidas earlier years would have looked like?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Absolutely. And picking through the narratives about his family story because he's one of four brothers, so there's a lot to unpick there.

[Tristan Hughes]

And can you tell us what are our main sources for learning about Leonidas and the world in which he lived? So the late 6th and early 5th centuries BC.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah. So our number one source and our earliest surviving source is Herodotus. And so that's why it's all about Thermopylae, because Herodotus doesn't even mention Leonidas until he actually gets to Thermopylae. So he really does appear out of nowhere. We've got later sources like Diodorus, but he only introduces Leonidas at Thermopylae as well. And we've got sayings attributed to him by Plutarch, but most of those are actually relating to Thermopylae as well. So we're quite limited in source material.

[Tristan Hughes]

And how much can we trust, let's say, if we focus on Herodotus first and foremost, how much can we trust his version of Leonidas that he puts forward and I guess his overall opinion towards Spartan kings?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

That's a tricky one. It's always a tricky one. How much can we trust anything with Sparta? So Herodotus traveled to Sparta, he spoke to Spartans. It has been suggested by many experts that he spoke to Gorgo Leonidas wife. So he would be getting an official version of Leonidas, but maybe somewhat partial version of Leonidas. And he's writing 50 years after the events. So there's a lot of rebalancing, I think, of what really happened coming through. So he's getting the official Spartan version of what Thermopylae was, rather than what we might think Thermopylae actually was.

[Tristan Hughes]

He's already become a cult hero by that time in Sparta, which I'm sure we'll explore as time goes on.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Absolutely. I think Cult Hero is perfect. And I think all the 300 who fought and died with Leonidas were cult heroes in Sparta. So Herodotus says he traveled to Sparta and he said, I learned all their names. And so he bothered to find them out and sort of commit them to memory even though he didn't write them all down. And he doesn't say I read the names off the list that was set up afterwards. So he probably didn't actually see the later memorial to the men who fought and died at Thermopylae as well.

[Tristan Hughes]

You're a proper keen bean if you learn all 300 or so of those names. The figures.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

I think so. Herodotus liked to show how clever he was. He liked to show his maths. He often got that wrong. But he was trying. And I think he really did commit a lot of facts to memory.

[Tristan Hughes]

Okay, good effort. Good effort, Herodotus. And can we also say that do we have any archaeological evidence for Leonidas at the same time? My mind will immediately go if we're talking about an ancient ruler to something like coinage or inscriptions. But do we have anything of that sort for him?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

No. So we have no classical period Spartan coinage at all really. So it's only in the Hellenistic period that we actually get proper Spartan coinage. No inscriptions barely on Odas name. There's just those literary accounts. That's it.

[Tristan Hughes]

And there's that classic Spartan statue, isn't there? Or a depiction of a Spartan. And people sometimes say that's Leonidas. But is that true?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

That's not Leonidas. When the excavators dug him up they nicknamed him Leonidas because he was a big heroic looking man and it kind of made sense. But no.

[Tristan Hughes]

So there is nothing like. I might also think of Miltiades. Isn't it in the bastard Marathon. And there's the helmet and it has Miltiades on it.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, the Miltiades helmet from Marathon. Yeah. I love taking my students to Olympia and showing this is the Miltiades helmet. Maybe it's the right time period. It's got the right name on it. There's nothing like that for Leonidas at all. The closest you get is the commemorative inscription that was set up in modern times at Thermopylae, which is said to be a representation of the real monument that was set up afterwards.

[Tristan Hughes]

I'm getting a clear feeling here. Maybe our archaeological evidence for Leonidas is pretty slight. But let's explore his story as much as we can by taking into account what we know about the Spartan world and the world of Spartan elites and kings at the time that he would have been living. So first and foremost let's start at the beginning. Do we know much about when he's born and who his parents were?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

We actually know a surprisingly large amount. So we finally have Something to play with there. So Herodotus gives us a lot of details. He clearly talked to the right people. And he tells us about the pretty odd coincidences going on with the two Spartan royal houses at the time. And you have Leonidas father, Anaxandradas, and his co, King Aristone, both were having trouble having children and they reached different ways of solving their problem. So when it came to Alexandrodas, he was failing to have a child. And the Spartan officials, the ephors, visited him and they basically told him he needed to sort it out and make sure that he didn't allow the royal line to die out. And they said, ditch your current wife, take a new one, get her pregnant and everything will be good. And Alexandra Dass said no. He said, my wife's blameless. You're giving me bad advice. And they threatened him and said, well, we could find some way of solving this if you don't do what we're telling you to do. But here's a compromise. Take another wife as well and have children by her. And that's what he did. And so by the new wife, he had his first son, Cleomenes. But almost as soon as she fell pregnant, the original wife fell pregnant as well, and she gave birth to a son not long after named Dorius. And then sometime afterwards, two sons, Leonidas and Cleombrotus, who were so close together that there was a story that they might have been twins.

[Tristan Hughes]

Right, and those are all from the first wife, from Anaxandradas, apart from Cleomenes.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, Cleomenes is with the second wife, and then the other three are with the original wife.

[Tristan Hughes]

Ah, okay. So Cleomenes is the only half brother of Leonidas.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

That's right, yeah.

[Tristan Hughes]

And also you mentioned their Spartan kings at that time. Can you explain to us this unique concept? And I always hesitate saying the word unique in these cases, but I think it is with the story of Spartan kings, how the Spartan royalty ruled. Because there is not just one royal line.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah. Sparta is not a monarchy. It's a diarchy.

[Tristan Hughes]

Diarchy. What a word.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

It is a wonderful word. And I often say to people, all right, name another diarchy. And there is a Wikipedia page explaining Dyarchy out there. But there are very few real situations where you have two genuinely equal royal houses. So Herodotus tells us that the Aegeid royal house, which was Leonidas1, was the more senior, but a hundred years later, the Europontid royal house actually seemed more senior. So it was probably force of personality as much as anything else. So two kings, supposedly equal, both command armies, both sit on the council of elders, and they could nominally be in charge at various points in time.

[Tristan Hughes]

And do they both fill the same functions? It's not like one king is more senior than the other then when they're ruling at the same time.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Not really, no. So they're both priests of Zeus, they both command armies, they both sit on the council. So they have very equal roles in that way. Herodotus tells us one story where Cleomenes Leonidas half brother led out an army and his co commander was Demarantus, the Eurypontid king. And along the way Demarantus decided he didn't want to be involved in it and went home. And when he left, all the allies went, oh well the Spartans aren't on equal footing on this, so we better bail out as well. So the whole campaign led to nothing. And then afterwards the Spartans, according to Rotterda, set up a new rule where only one king would command an army to avoid that kind of thing happening again.

[Tristan Hughes]

So there's always a king in spa to that kind of idea, is it?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, yeah. So there'll be one at home to oversee what's happening there and one in commanding the army and then no chance of them interfering with each other.

[Tristan Hughes]

And in regards to like marriage and wives of these kings, do they ever intermarry? Do they ever mix the two lines?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Not that we know of, no. So it's only in the Hellenistic period that there's sort of some sort of change with that? No, there's no sense in. I'm trying to think of a concrete example and I can't. So they intermarry within their own family. So Anaxandra Das first wife was his niece, but I'm struggling to think of any moment where the two royal houses mingle.

[Tristan Hughes]

But that's even more interesting. So let's focus on that. So close kin marriage and incest are parts of Spartan royal life then?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah. So there's several examples of uncles marrying nieces in the ancient world that wasn't as abnormal as it is today. But that is something that Spartans seem to have done enough for people to notice. And it's probably all about the fact that Spartan women inherit land so you can keep the wealth in the family by making sure that they don't marry out into another family.

[Tristan Hughes]

Right, there you go with these Spartan kings. Are they also expected primarily to be charismatic and capable warlords, especially when they're leading the army out? Are they expected to be fighting at the front with their men.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

They do fight very much at the front. And they're guarded by the elite unit of the Spartan army, the 300 hippies, which literally means knights. But they don't fight on horseback. And so the best of the best are with the king. Olympic champions have a special right to fight near the king as well. So the king should be at the front. And quite a few Spartan kings do die in combat.

[Tristan Hughes]

And are they expected to be athletic? Do they compete in the Olympic Games as well?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

We do have examples of Spartan kings competing in the Olympic Games. Demaratus Leonidas's. No, he's never quite Leonidas co king adjacent to Leonidas. He won at the four horse chariot race at the Olympics. But we don't have any examples of boxing or running or anything like that for the kings. But they do do sport.

[Tristan Hughes]

So expected to have that kind of very, I guess, virulent character to them, that charismatic character as part of their leadership. So let's talk about the next stage in Leonidas story which is the death of his father Alexandridas. So what happens when Anaxandrodas dies?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Well, as far as I see it, what happens when Anaxandradas dies? The natural things happen. His eldest son Cleomenes becomes king. But that seems to have been a surprise to his second son Dorius, who thought that he should be king. And Herodotus said he thought he should be king because he was manifestly the best of his generation. And the obvious assumption from that is that he must have gone through the Spartan upbringing, that it must be in operation by now because how else would he be able to prove that he was the best of his generation if it wasn't something that people had been assessing and monitoring?

[Tristan Hughes]

And what was this Spartan upbringing? This feels a good time to talk about that as well because I guess we can also ask whether Leonidas would have done similar.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah. So the Spartan upbringing is a mandatory step to full Spartan citizenship for ordinary Spartans. So you have to start at age 7, goes through to 20 or 30 depending on how you want to assess the final stage of sort of processing a citizen through into full citizenship. It's quite brutal. There's a lot of sport. The official who oversees it has the title Paidanomos, which means boy herder. The boys are just grouped into batches that some of the primary sources call herds. Xenophon describes them as sort of squadrons. The Paidanomos is assisted by young men known as the whip bearers. And there is a lot of evidence for brutal corporal punishment, for indiscretions by boys going through the upbringing. And every single Spartan citizen has to go through this with a couple of exceptions, and that is the direct heirs to the two royal houses. So Plutarch tells us, probably incorrectly that the 4th century Europontid king Agesilaus was the only Spartan king to have gone through the upbringing. He probably hadn't remembered that Leonidas must have done before him. So that sort of makes it exceptional for these kings who have gone through the upbringing because they're kind of one of the boys, but they're not because they then become one of these charismatic kings. So the thought process that a lot of modern scholars have is that they exempted the heir to the throne from the upbringing because you couldn't really risk them failing. So they might look a bit rubbish if they'd done badly.

[Tristan Hughes]

So in regards to Leonidas family, then it seems that Cleomenes would not have gone through this, but both Doreus and Leonidas would have gone through this fully Spartan training.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, and the other brother Cleombrotus as well. So there would have been this obvious distinction between those three full brothers and their half brother. So it won't necessarily just been yeah, we kind of think we're better than him because we're from the original legitimate wife. There may well have been a sense that, well, we've gone through the state upbringing so we're manifest better men than him, he who hasn't done it.

[Tristan Hughes]

And can you also explain what happens if let's say Leonidas completes that training as he almost certainly did? How does that distinguish him from the rest of Spartan society and not just full blooded Spartans?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Well I think when it comes to full blooded Spartans it distinguishes him not at all. It actually makes him part of what you could think of as the in group of Spartan citizens. They call themselves the homoioi, which means the equals. They dine together in communal mess groups every night. They spend their time exercising, hunting, being gentlemen of leisure. So he would have been one of them, whereas Cleomenes wouldn't have been. He would have been separate from that. The kings have their own common mess where they dine with their chosen companions and they get a double portion so they can entertain guests. So Leonidas would have been one of the guys, but then he would have been like all Spartan citizens, very distinct from the subcitizen groups in Sparta like the perioikoi and then the helots who did the work for them.

[Tristan Hughes]

And so who are the perioikoi they're

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

free men who live in communities around the Spartans. They share the label Lacedaemonians with the Spartans because Spartans aren't really Spartans. The primary sources all call them the Lacedaemonians. And so they do the work that the Spartans are supposed to be not doing because they're gentlemen of leisure who aren't supposedly. Aren't allowed to work. So they do the trading, they do the manufacturing, that kind of thing. And then beneath them, you have the slave population of helots who work the land for the Spartans, allowing them all, including the onidas, to be gentlemen of leisure and perioikos.

[Tristan Hughes]

That literally means those living around.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Exactly.

[Tristan Hughes]

That's literally it. So do you think it's fair to say that Leonidas, when he's growing up, when he's going through this education that even he himself would not have expected to one day become king?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

I think, well, we could probably ask many princes now how they feel about what their chances are of becoming king. But I think as the third brother, he would have had, would have thought, very little chance of becoming a king.

[Tristan Hughes]

And so what do we know then by the time that Cleomenes does succeed, his father is king? Do we have any idea roughly how old Darius and Leonidas would have been at that time as well?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Well, Dorius is basically practically the same age as Cleomenes. We're not sure what the gap is between Leonidas and Cleomenes, but the assumption is he's kind of pushing 60 by the battle of Thermopylae. So when their father dies, he should be near enough to an adult.

[Tristan Hughes]

Near enough to an adult because he dies in about 524.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Something like that.

[Tristan Hughes]

Something like that. And that's when Cleomenes comes to the fore. And what is Cleomenes reign? What is it defined by? How does he change or I guess, improve Sparta?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

I think what he does is continue his father's policies, which was ousting tyrants from other parts of the Greek world and trying to set up puppet regimes that will be loyal to Sparta and secure Sparta's security from outside threats. So he does that, but in his own way and occasionally pushes things too far.

[Tristan Hughes]

And where are these threats at this time? How powerful is Sparta? Is it the dominant force in the Peloponnese or is it still trying to kind of expand its authority there?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

I think it's still trying to expand its authority. It is becoming the dominant force. So by the time Herodotus introduces us to the Spartans, which is 540 or thereabouts. He said Sparta is the dominant force in the Peloponnese, but it kind of isn't yet because the original dominant force, Argos, is still strong and still powerful. So a lot of Cleomenes activities are directed against Argos.

[Tristan Hughes]

Is this around the time we get the famous Battle of the Champions as well?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, so it's just the Battle of the champions is around 575 or thereabouts. So that's the moment that Sparta really starts to dominate Argos. But Argos is still powerful, so there needs to be a few more confrontations for Argos to finally accept that the Spartans are really in charge.

[Tristan Hughes]

Well, are there any big notable campaigns by Cleomenes in the Peloponnese or perhaps even beyond that that occurs during his reign that we should mention?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

I think you can't not talk about his involvement with Athens. Okay, so the Athenians have their official, which was Harmodius and Aristogyton. The Tyrannicides got rid of the tyrants because they killed Hipparchus, except he was the brother, the younger brother of Hippias, who was the actual tyrant of Athens. So the Athenian official story is kind of hiding the fact that really it was the Spartans who ousted Hippias because they got messages from the Oracle at Delphi to liberate Athens from the tyranny. So they did. And so they had several failed attempts militarily to oust oust Hippeas. And then Cleomenes led a campaign himself and actually ended up besieging the peisistratid family on the Athenian Acropolis and managed to force them out.

[Hayden]

Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy fanfellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.

[Stephen]

And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball. But you can call me the Smash Daddy.

[Hayden]

And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.

[Stephen]

That's right.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Hey.

[Stephen]

Hey. So each week, you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.

[Hayden]

And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.

[Stephen]

Newsflash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find Fantasy fanfellas wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Hey, Sal.

[Tristan Hughes]

Hank. What's going on?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

We haven't Worked a case in years. I just bought my car at Carvana. And it was so easy. Too easy.

[Tristan Hughes]

Think something's up?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

You tell me. They got thousands of options, found a great car at a great price, and it got delivered the next day.

[Tristan Hughes]

It sounds like Carvana just makes it

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

easy to buy your car, Hank. Yeah, you're right. Case closed.

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[Tristan Hughes]

Can we presume, I mean, is it likely then, that Leonidas would have been one of the Spartan hoplites, one of the Spartan warriors serving in that army?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

It's entirely plausible that Leonidas will have been involved in some of his brother's campaigns, although you might wonder whether. What role he would have. Is he gonna be an officer? Would the king want his younger half brother to be in any sort of official role? Or would he consider that to be a problem? Popular novels covering this often sort of turn Leonidas into a senior officer and someone who's learning to sort of find his own way while his brother is king. But there's nothing in the sources. That's the really frustrating thing.

[Tristan Hughes]

There are probably a few hypothetical questions I'm going to ask. I mean, One of them, another theoretical one is if Leonidas did go through that Spartan training system, which seems almost certain that he did, I can't help but wonder whether that would have really increased his popularity with the Spartans that he was growing up alongside and almost becoming the equivalent of his companions. And whether is there any potential there that the likes of Cleomenes would have looked upon his younger brothers, his half brothers, and seen them as potential threats because they might have had a lot of popularity with Spartans of similar age?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

I would think so, yes. And the direct analogy is, I guess, Elias, the 4th century Eurypontid king who went through the upbringing, who seems to have been particularly respected by his men because he had gone through that system with them. So some of the other kings sort of seemed to be, well, who do they think they are? What's their right to command us? They don't know what they're doing. Whereas Agesilaus obviously knew what he was doing because he'd gone through the system and had been recognized as excellent. So the same thing might have happened with Leonidas. The other guys might have thought, yeah, he's one of us. So that would be potentially a threat to a king, particularly a king who had a reputation for not always following the rules, which is what Cleomenes had.

[Tristan Hughes]

So how come, how does he not follow the rules?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Over time he develops a reputation for being, I think, not actually accepting bribes, but vulnerable to bribery and outright acts of impiety. Religious atrocities would be a not unkind way of putting it.

[Tristan Hughes]

I think we're teeing up the end of Cleomenes very soon, aren't we, with that? But before we get to that, I must also ask about the middle brother, about Darius. Do we know what happened to him? Because it sounds like he wasn't that happy.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah. Dorius is very angry when Cleomenes becomes king and as Herodotus puts it, he refused to be ruled by his brother, so he asked to be able to set up a colony somewhere else. So he asked the Spartan authorities and said, can I have some men to found the colony? And despite his reputation for being excellent, he did not ask the oracle at Delphi where he should set up his colony. He just decided to do it. And he ended up going to North Africa and his colony failed. They were driven, given out by the Carthaginians and the locals came back to Sparta, tried to start again, asked the oracle at Delphi whether he would be successful if he set up a colony in southern Italy, and did, and then got involved in a local war and ended up getting himself killed.

[Tristan Hughes]

This is the first of those kind of Greek adventures, dare I say, to southern Italy, that will become so popular over the next few centuries or so. Do you think? Well, it's another kind of theoretical question, isn't it, hypothetical whether Leonidas could have been tempted with doing something similar?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

There's nothing in the sources that suggest he was. Maybe he was smart enough to realize that if he lurked around in Sparta, he might get somewhere with this. I'm not sure, but I think my reading of his Herodotus is that he paints Dorius as someone who really ought to have just stuck around because he kind of contradicts himself about Cleomenes. He said he didn't reign for very long, which is not true. He's got his maths wrong there. But I think he might be trying to make that point to say, look, if Dorius had just waited around, waited till Cleomenes died, he could have been the king and then he could have been the one who was leading the Spartans at Thermopylae.

[Tristan Hughes]

Do Spartan kings regularly look outside the Peloponnese or look to the sea and the waters and places beyond the seas nearby, or is that quite unusual?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Spartan foreign policy is always cast by our primary sources as cautious. So I think actually trying to go too far away is a bit dangerous. And when, when Aristagoras, the tyrant of Miletus, asks the Spartans to intervene to help them rebel against the Persians, he seems quite interested. Until he finds out how far away it is. Aristagoras has this amazing bronze map which is like super new technology. He points out all the parts of the Persian kingdom and says, oh, look at all. Look how big it is and how wonderful it is and how much gold and silver they have. You'll eat them easily. And then Cleomenes says, okay, how far is it from here to the Persian heartland? And he's told three months. And his response is get out of Sparta. But just go, really get out.

[Tristan Hughes]

Wow. Okay, well, how does it all end for Cleomenes? Hinted it earlier. It doesn't end well, does it?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

I think that's an understatement. It ends spectacularly badly for Cleomenes. So there's a series of scandals. He has a falling out with his co, King Demaratus. It involves him then trying to get Demaratus deposed. To make that happen, he bribes the priests at Delphi to get the priestess at Delphi to declare Demaratus illegitimate. Demaratus is deposed and ends up running away to Persia. Afterwards, it turns out the story gets out that he's bribed the oracle at Delphi. Not the done thing. There's a campaign against the Argives where he is victorious. But he doesn't capture the city of Argos. And on his way home, he flogs the priest at the Argive Horion. Well, he has his helots flog the priest at the Argive Horion. He burns a sacred grove in which some runaway Argives have hidden. So religious atrocities at plenty.

[Tristan Hughes]

The Argive Herion, that's a sacred place to the goddess Hera.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, yeah. And when he tries to make a sacrifice there, the priest says, you can't cause you're not Argive. And he just has his helots drag him away and flog him and does the sacrif place anyway. Getting the impression of a man who doesn't necessarily follow the rules.

[Tristan Hughes]

He doesn't care anymore, it sounds like.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, not really, I think. Well, that's the message we're getting about him. He ends up going into somewhat voluntary exile. And then when he's in exile, he starts stirring up trouble and tries to get various Spartan allies to swear allegiance to him. At which point the authorities panic and bring him back. And he ends up under house arrest under the care of his relatives. And then he's found one day covered in blood, knife, hacked himself to pieces. Allegedly hacked himself. Yes. Yeah. So the story is he started cutting his skin on his legs and just into strips. And then just got higher and higher and higher. And then when he got to his belly, he just bled to death. And the source of information was the helot who was left guarding him, who he'd bullied into giving him the knife. He said, give me the knife. The helot said, no. And he said, well, think what I'm gonna do to you if I ever get out of here. So the helot gave him the knife. That's the official story.

[Tristan Hughes]

That's not a nice end for Cleomenes. Who succeeds him?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Well, his half brother Leonidas married his daughter Gorgo. And so when you think about his relatives who've had him under house arrest, some modern scholars have suggested, well, maybe. Maybe there was something not quite legit about this story about how Cleomenes died.

[Tristan Hughes]

I think Leonidas could have orchestrated it and potentially also Gorgo too.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

So his own daughter, potentially.

[Tristan Hughes]

Wow. And so Cleomenes has no male sons, does he? So that's why it goes to his half Brother Leonidas and Doreus is out the picture by now.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah. Dorius is dead by now. Cleombrotus is clearly younger than Leonidas, or if they were twins, he's clearly the. Leonidas is clearly the older twin.

[Tristan Hughes]

Right. So Leonidas is now king and he's married Gorgo. So Cleomenes his daughter. Do we know much behind the marriage there?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

No. And so there's going to be an obvious age gap between the two. So either Leonidas had had a previous wife who died, or they waited long enough for him to marry his niece so that they would keep that wealth in the family.

[Tristan Hughes]

And so do we know much then about. First off, Leonidas is inheriting quite an unusual position. Dare I say the fact that one of the previous kings has fled to Persia and the other one may well have been killed by Leonidas command. So it is quite an interesting situation that he's thrown himself into compared to, let's say, that of his father, Anaxandridas.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, I'd love to know more. That's the problem we have with Herodotus narrative is he doesn't say when he describes the death of Cleomenes, oh, and he was succeeded by Leonidas, he kind of just moves on. So it's only when you get to the narrative about Thermopylae that you actually get the stories of Leonidas then. So there is a void in our sources. So we don't really know exactly what's going on in this period of time. But maybe because of the massive change that you've described, there's been two quite strong kings in both royal houses and they've both been replaced by people who you would never have expected to be kings. So maybe there is just a bit of a power vacuum.

[Tristan Hughes]

So who is the other person who's become king at this time?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

So Demaratus was replaced by his cousin Leotochides, who had no great distinguishing features whatsoever. So he probably went through the upbringing as well, but not in a demonstrably excellent kind of way. There's a wonderful story when Demaratus had not yet gone into exile, he'd been elected to hold an official post. And at the Spartan religious festival, the Gymnopidei, Leoticides decided to sort of poke him a bit and send a servant and said, how does it to hold an elected office after you've served as king, like I am now? And Demaratus responds, I think quite a good one. He says, well, you wouldn't know because you were never distinguished enough to hold an elected role. But that's the event that prompts him to go into exile. So he loses his temper and then runs off to the Persians.

[Tristan Hughes]

Runs off to the Persians. But that's also interesting to highlight that link between Sparta and Persia at that time. It sounds like at least with the royal family, with the kings, the Persians and the Spartans, they did have contact.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

They did. And so Cleomenes policy seems to have been prepare Sparta to resist the Persians. The fact that he was often being stymied by Demaratus and then Demaratus ending up in Persia suggests that maybe Demaratus had other ideas.

[Tristan Hughes]

And also. So what date is it that Cleomenes dies and Leonidas officially becomes the next king?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

It's sometime around the Battle of Marathon. Around the battle of Marathon. But it's murky exactly when it happened.

[Tristan Hughes]

So we don't think that Leonidas is leading the Spartan force that goes to Marathon after the battle is fought to look at the corpses of the Persians.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

It would be nice to think that he was, but we don't know. So they sent 2,000 men in a hurry. So it's entirely possible that they were under a more junior officer just with orders of get there fast. And maybe a larger Spartan army was meant to come later.

[Tristan Hughes]

There we go. So it's a decade after that that we get to the battle of Thermopylae and Leonidas claim to fame, as it were. Do we know anything? Can we presume anything about Leonidas rule in that decade before we get Xerxes king of kings and the great second Persian invasion of Greece?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

I'd love to say yes, but no. And we even potentially have indications that he's not that significant. As in the initial Greek allied forces that are sent north to try and stop Xerxes are not under his command. They attempt to hold off. Well, they think they can hold off Xerxes at the valley of Tempe in Thessaly and send 10,000 men, a large fleet. And there's a random Spartan who's not a member of the royal house in charge of that.

[Tristan Hughes]

And is that 10,000?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

10,000 Greek hoplites.

[Tristan Hughes]

So not all full Spartans. It's just a combination of Greeks.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, combination of Greeks, Yeah. Yeah, they'll probably be marines off the warships. Cause there was nowhere where they could actually try and fight against the Persians at sea there. Because the strategy was trying to block them up in narrow spaces so they could nullify their numbers. And there's no really obvious at all at sea where it would have Been narrow there. So it seems they probably just beached their ships and then decamped and ended up getting off the ships and then being ready to fight on land. So there's a large force and there's no sign of Leonidas in charge of us.

[Tristan Hughes]

Well, Andrew, talk us then through how we get to Leonidas camping with his men at the hot gates at Thermopylae. And feel free please do to include some of the quotes that are attributed to him at this time as well.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Right, okay. So the quotes that are attributed to Leonidas are in the late sources. And the fact that Herodotus, who knows a very good one liner when he hears one, doesn't use any of those, suggests to me that they are part of the later legend about Leonidas. But we can come to that later on. So I mentioned Tempi. It's a complete failure. They get there and they're warned by Alexander the King of Macedon that they have no chance of holding up.

[Tristan Hughes]

Not Alexander the Great. Just to clarify.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, definitely not Alexander the Great. That one drives my students insane. Yeah, Alexander I, not Alexander iii. And they're told that basically they'll be too easily surrounded, so they withdraw and then they go back down south and come up with a plan B. And the plan B is Thermopylae because it's on the major route for wheeled vehicles from northern to southern Greece. And at its narrowest it's sort of 15 metres wide. So it makes sense. And it's actually adjacent to some straits, narrow straits, where the fleet would be able to block up the Persians as well. So it makes sense. So the story that Herodotus tells us is this coincides with the Olympic Games when there is a truce for all the Greeks to compete in the Olympics. It also coincides with the month of the Carnea when all of the Dorian Greeks maintain a strict truce. So that explains why only 300 Spartans and a comparatively small number of allies are sent to Thermopylae.

[Tristan Hughes]

And the Dorian Greeks are. These include Sparta and other Peloponnesian cities.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, most of the other Peloponnesians and then islands like Aegina and Rhodes and Cos and places like that. So it's one of the major ethnic groups of the Greeks.

[Tristan Hughes]

And that is why you see such a small number of soldiers then combining together after that. Is that the reason?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

That's a logical explanation. That's what Herodotus tells us. But the numbers kind of don't work in terms of the calendar. It's like by the time you actually get to the battle of Thermopylae. The Carneia should be over by now. So maybe this is part of the official Spartan version of what actually happened later on to sort of COVID up what was maybe a complete sort of mess up in that way. So are the 300 Spartans who were sent with Leonidas, are they a suicide squad? Are they an advance guard? Did Leonidas just not actually manage to hold the pass long enough for reinforcements to arrive? These are questions that we don't know the answer to, but we can speculate.

[Tristan Hughes]

Was it a logistics cock up that there wasn't more men to go to the pass to defend there?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

That has been argued and you could see that. So as a Thermopylae can be cast as this great moral victory even though they lost, or it could just be cast as a complete failure. They held up Xerxes for a couple of days and it was all over.

[Tristan Hughes]

Is it decided though that Leonidas, he is going to be the commander in chief of that army force? There's no kind of Athenian general who's right there and who's also of equal rank or something like that?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

No. So the Athenians are actually in the fleet at Artemisium, which is taking place at the same time as Thermopylae. But there's no sense that any of the allies are, are equal. Spartans are in command of the allied Greek forces against the Persians. That was agreed. The Peloponnesians made it clear they wouldn't accept anyone else. And the Athenians just kind of had to swallow it.

[Tristan Hughes]

They agreed to it. And also there's a Spartan naval commander as well. I mean, you think Themistocles, but Eurybiades,

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

yeah, Eurybiades is in charge of the fleet. And Herodotus almost implies that he's senior to Leonidas as well, which is interesting, shall we say.

[Tristan Hughes]

And when Leonidas does leave Sparta to go to the Hotgate's Thermopylae at that time. Talk us through. First of all, the famous saying he supposedly gives to Gorgo and his family.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Oh yes. So it's not in Herodotus, but it is in the Diodorus version of things is that the Onidas, there's various wonderful sayings. So one of them is the ephors tell him he's not taking enough men. And he says, for my purpose, I'm taking enough. And they say seriously, do you understand what you're doing? And he says, yes, to die, there's enough. So he makes it clear that it's A suicide mission. That's a suicide mission. The story is that he told Gorgo, when she asked, what should I do? His response to her was, marry well and have more children so he would know that he was going off to die. Herodotus makes it clear that Leonidas and all of the men with him had living sons. So that might imply that they knew it was a great risk that they might die. Whether it was definitely a suicide squad is another matter.

[Tristan Hughes]

And is there the Gorgo saying, come back with your shield or on it?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Well, she doesn't say that. That's not one of her attributed saying. But that is in the sayings of Spartan women. There's one where a mother says to a son, come back with your shield or on it. But it's such a good line that popular culture has to get into it,

[Tristan Hughes]

including the original 300, didn't I?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, yeah. Frank Miller's graphic novel has it and then it makes its way into the film. Yeah.

[Tristan Hughes]

But do we know whether. Did Leonidas have children by that time? Oh, yes, of course. You said everyone has a child.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, including him. So his son Pleistarchus is alive and does succeed him as king afterwards.

[Tristan Hughes]

And he is very much which, like Cleomenes would have done, was previously he wouldn't have gone through the Spartan system because he was the heir apparent.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

That's our understanding, yes.

[Tristan Hughes]

So they get to Thermopylae, talk us through what we know about Leonidas and his role during the Greek defense of Thermopylae. Over. Is it two or three days, isn't it?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Well, there's four or five days waiting and then two and a half days of actual fighting. So Leonidas is in command of all of the Greek forces. Herodotus says he was the most respected man in the Greek army, which he has given us no evidence to explain why. So when you were speculating earlier, was he involved in that campaign that not mentioned. Was he involved in that campaign? Maybe he was. Maybe that's why he was so respected. Or maybe it's just because Herodotus wants to big him up in that way. He gives him a genealogy going all the way back to Heracles and then therefore Zeus. So he goes through the full thing and casts him like a. A Homeric hero. And there's a lot of Homer's Iliad sort of imagery in his account of the battle of Thermopylae as well. So you can see he's definitely turning it into an epic story.

[Tristan Hughes]

And how would he have fought at the Bastille of Thermopylae, well, would have

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

fought at the front with everyone else. So he would have fought as a hoplite. He would have had his big bronze faced wooden shield. He would have had bronze armor, bronze helmet. So he would have gone into combat dressed in red like the Spartans did. So he would have been one of the frontline troops. There's only 300 of them. So they're all in the front line.

[Tristan Hughes]

And it is brazen. It is that bronze kind of shining light, bright armour colour at that time.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

That's what Xenophon says about later Spartan armies. So he says that they wore red because it was the manliest color. And they had bronze shields because you could polish them easily and they would tarnish slowly.

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[Hayden]

Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan Fellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.

[Stephen]

And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball, but you can call me the Smash Daddy.

[Hayden]

And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.

[Stephen]

That's right.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Hey. Hey.

[Stephen]

So each week you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chat.

[Hayden]

And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.

[Stephen]

News flash, I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday and you can find Fantasy Fan fellows wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tristan Hughes]

And isn't there also that story? We'll include the stories, but as you've already mentioned, we've got to take them with a large barrel full of salt. But is there another one about the Persian scouts who see the Spartans and then they notice the Persian scouts, but they say, yeah, let them watch us. We're prepared for this. We're ready to die if need be.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Herodotus says that the Persian spy is sent to watch the Greeks and see what they can see. And it just. Just by sheer coincidence, it's the Spartans turn to guard the pass and there's a wall there that they've rebuilt to sort of shore up the defences. And the Spartans are there. They're exercising naked, which is Spartan military practice. They continue their exercises even while on campaign. And some of them just sitting around combing their hair. And it's a brilliant story. And when the spy goes back and reports this to Xerxes, he has no idea what this means. So he has to summon Demaratus to ask him, because Demarantus has accompanied him on his campaign. You can see where Demarantus is going with this. He clearly is imagining himself becoming king of Greece at Xerxes behest. And Demaratus has to explain the Spartans to Xerxes. And that's where he sort of gives the best description of them. And he describes them as the best fighting men on earth and says that they won't run away because Nomos is their master, Spartan custom or law is their master. And he says they fear Spartan law more than Xerxes. Men fear him. And Spartan custom dictates that they will fight where they have been ordered to fight and they will not run away. And he explains the combing of their hair. He says this is what Spartans do when they're preparing to risk their lives. They make themselves look handsome.

[Tristan Hughes]

And Leonidas, even though he's a king, he wouldn't have been above the law in Sparta, would he? So he would have been very much as at risk as any other Spartan serving there if he. If he returned home but was seen to be a coward.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, absolutely. When Spartans become a citizen and join the Spartan army, they swear an oath to cement that new arrangement. And while we have very limited source material for it, the one surviving reference to this oath says that they swore to not break the ranks. So you could interpret that as they swore to fight where they were ordered to fight and not run away.

[Tristan Hughes]

Aleonidas at this time, is he quite old?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, he's probably late 50s, early 60s. Right.

[Tristan Hughes]

Because part of my thinking was also like, imagine if it was also the people that he'd grown up alongside in the Spartan training that now were the people with them as the 300. But it seems like that's unlikely if he's in his late 50s by that time.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, I'd think it'd be more likely men in their prime Herodotus says it was the usual 300, which might imply they were the Hippeis, but the hippes are the men aged 20 to 30. And Spartans don't seem to have normally married until 30, so that doesn't kind of work. So it's been suggested maybe they were people who'd once been the best of the best. So former hippies, but they must have been mature men to all have living sons.

[Tristan Hughes]

Another big greater. Controversial is probably the wrong word, but a question full of debate. How greatly outnumbered were the Spartans and their allies at Thermopylae?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Well, I would never trust Herodotus numbers. I said earlier that Herodotus likes doing his maths. And his description of the number of Persian forces is a fantastic example of him doing maths. So he has to calculate how many infantry men there are, how many cavalry men there are, how many marines there must be, adds them all together, gets 2,700,000 and so on, and then says, well, every single one of them would have owned a slave as well, and then adds that in as well and gets this figure of 5 million, which is is obviously absurd. So that would have been like half the population of the planet at the time.

[Tristan Hughes]

A swarm of locusts going down through Macedonia and into northern Greece.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, and that's how Herodotus paints it. So they come through, they drown, they drain lakes and rivers with their pack animals, just drinking up all the water. He does sort of paint them like locusts. So they would have been outnumbered, but nothing like the numbers that Herodotus is suggesting.

[Tristan Hughes]

Molon Labbe, talk us through this.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Okay, so Plutarch says that Xerxes wrote to Leonidas and ordered him to surrender his arms. And he then wrote back just two words, Molon labe, which translates as come and get them. But Herodotus does not mention this. He says that Xerxes assumed that they would run away and when they didn't, he got angry and eventually ordered an attack. So he doesn't. There's moments in Herodotus narrative where if he understood that Leonidas had said mol on Labe, he would have said it. So I'd say no. But that saying has taken on a life of its own.

[Tristan Hughes]

Are there any other particular sayings by Leonidas that we've missed at Thermopylae or beforehand? I can think of the Then we will fight in the shade. But I don't think that's Leonidas himself.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

That's not Leonidas himself. According to Herodotus, he gives that to Dionysus and says that he had a reputation for great wits. He has a good line. Plutarch gives it to Leonidas and he has some other ones. And Plutarch wrote a work called the Malice of Herodotus and he criticized Herodotus for being a lover of Persians and all sorts of things. And he says and he didn't give Leonidas his best one liners but that's clearly because the tradition of his best one liners was invented after the fact.

[Tristan Hughes]

Ends up being said by a Michael Fassbender. Doesn't it as well?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

It does, yeah.

[Tristan Hughes]

So let's wrap up the story of Thermopylae. How does it all come tumbling down and what do we know about Leonidas during those final hours of the stand at Thermopylae?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Well, it all comes unraveled because there is a way of surrounding the Greeks at Thermopylae that they know is there and they've thought they've fixed but ultimately they haven't. So Leonidas ordered the local Phokians to guard this secondary route around where they're occupying the pass thinking that the locals would know what to do. Much ink has been spent saying why didn't Leonidas order a Spartan officer to oversee the Phokians, why didn't he do it himself? All of that kind of thing. But it's an allied army. Their officers are in charge of their own allied contingents. So you could argue that it would have been insulting for Leonidas to do that. A local Greek named Ephialtes tells Xerxes about this for wanting cash and is rewarded and he's able to lead Hydarnes and the best of Xerxes troops the Immortals around to surround the Greeks. But according to Herodotus they find out either by deserters or by the seers interpreting the signs and they find out early enough that Leonidas can give orders for most of the troops to go home. So he's able to leave himself and his men and the men from the city of Thespiae and Thebes to fight on to basically hold the Persians off to buy enough time for the rest of the soldiers to escape. And Herodotus says there's all sorts of explanations of why this happened. But he thinks that Leonidas deliberately did this because he wanted to achieve chaos, great renown for glory. Exactly the kind of type of glory that Achilles is striving for in the Iliad. So by fighting and dying he'll get this great reputation and be able to sort of live on in the way that he actually has done so. Whether that's true or not is another matter. But that's what Herodotus said that he thought was the right explanation.

[Tristan Hughes]

And he would have grown up Leonidas, he would have heard about and read the classics like the Homers, the Iliad and the Odyssey, wouldn't he? So he would have known all about these great heroes and wanting to emulate them.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah. All ancient Greeks knew the stories of the great heroes. They all knew the Trojan war cycle, they all knew Achilles, they all knew what they were meant to do. And so people like, well, heroes like Achilles were a paradigm of masculine behavior. And Sparta was particularly obsessed with genealogies of the gods and the stories of the mythical past. So Menelaus, king of Sparta, the co commander against the Trojans, they would have understood that this was the kind of behaviour they were meant to follow.

[Tristan Hughes]

I wonder if Leonidas saw himself as a bit of a Menelaus. It's interesting to think, isn't it, the legacy of that figure as well in the Spartan royal mindset.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah. And that comes through in Herodotus story because when Leonidas is killed there's a massive fight over his body. And Herodotus says that four times the Spartans were able to force the Persians back and reclaim Leonidas body. And that that's obviously riffing on Homer's Iliad where there's a great struggle over Achilles friend Patroclus body which is led by Menelaus, king of Sparta. And three times they're able to force the Trojans back to reclaim Patroclus body. So the Spartans at Thermopylae are even better. They do it four times.

[Tristan Hughes]

And so we hear then. So in that last stand of the 300 and the thespians in the past at Thermopylae, Leonidas is not the the last man standing of them all. He falls at the height of the fighting disease.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, absolutely. So on the final day, the Spartans lead out the Thespians and the Thebans beyond the wall to sort of go into a more dangerous position to try and really take the fight to the Persians. And at some point in the morning Leonidas goes down and there's this great fight over his body. The Thebans end up surrendering. They clearly lose contact with the rest. Xerxes has them branded as slaves. What's going on there is a big question. But the Thespians and the remaining Spartans end up withdrawing to a small bluff where they make a final stand. And Herodotus says by that stage most of Them lost their spears, some of them even lost their swords. They're just fighting with hands and teeth.

[Tristan Hughes]

So Leonidas body, does it end up in Persian hands?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

It does, yes. Yes. So Xerxes after the battle cuts off his head and puts it on a spike on a pike. Yeah, yeah. So Xerxes gets his revenge on the Spartans who've embarrassed him over the two days of fighting at Thermopylae. So when you think about, I've said, oh it's an embarrassing fiasco. They've only held up the Persians for a couple of days. The portrayal of Xerxes anger suggests that this has not been something that he's just, just been weathering, that this has been a humiliation that all of his vast hordes have been delayed by just such a small number of Greek troops.

[Tristan Hughes]

Do we then know what happens to Leonidas body after that? His head has been severed from his body. But do the Persians keep hold of it or is it finally acquired by the Spartans? What do we know?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

It is eventually reacquired by the Spartans and it's one of those gray areas where the sources are a bit weird and they don't make sense. But Pausanias, the travel writer says that, that sometime afterwards another Pausanias, probably the Pausanias who commanded the Greeks at the battle of Plataea the following summer, traveled north, reclaimed Leonidas remains and brought them

[Tristan Hughes]

back to Sparta head and body.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, well presumably, yes.

[Tristan Hughes]

There is also that omen story, isn't it that a Spartan king had to die so that the Persian invasion failed.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yes. So the prophecy from Delphi, well all of the Greeks asked what they should do and they all got pretty grim answers. So when the Athenians asked Delphi should they fight against the Persians, they got the answer run away. And the delegates in Delphi were looking so despondent that one of the locals said to them why don't you ask again, see if you get a better answer. They got a slightly less terrible answer the second time around that said that there would be great deaths but blessed Salamis and the wooden wall would prevail. And Themistocles, it was a leading Athenian statesman, was able to convince the Athenians oh this means our fleet, the wooden walls, our fleet will be able to win if we fight near Salamis. This will be fine. The Spartans got an equally doom laden message which was Sparta will fall or a Spartan king will die. So if the oracle from Delphi is true and Leonidas had this before he set off, this may have explained what his thought process was that he was intending to die to preserve Sparta's security. Or it could be the kind of thing that was invented afterwards to explain what happened.

[Tristan Hughes]

It could be hindsight, couldn't it?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, absolutely. A lot of these oracles from Delphi are deliberately ambiguous, a bit vague and genuinely quite obviously made up.

[Tristan Hughes]

Okay, so how quickly do we get after the Spartans eventually retrieve Leonidas body and the Persian invasion has been repelled, Xerxes is out of the pit. How long is it before there is a full a very clear cult of Leonidas back in Sparta?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Not sure. So by the time Herodotus travels there, Sometime in the 450s to 420s, it's obvious that there is an official version of what happened and that is that Leonidas was a great hero and definitely intended to die. The cult for Leonidas depends on when this event of bringing his remains back actually happened. Because Pausanias said King Pausanias did it. The Pausanias who commanded the Greeks at Plataea wasn't a king and he says it was only four years after. But what Pausanias was doing there four years after is a little bit tricky. So it's not entirely certain exactly when, but by the time you get to the 4th century it's quite obvious that there is a great cult of Leonidas and the victory over the Persians is part of the official Spartan story.

[Tristan Hughes]

And do we know much about the structure of this cult or how Leonidas was worshiped in Sparta over those following centuries?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Not much at all really. So there's a building in modern Sparta of classical period structure where the foundation stones are there and that is known as the shrine of Leonidas. But there is nothing that will actually concretely link that to Leonidas. No, it's just we know from Pausania saying there was cult to Leonidas, but we don't really know much beyond that.

[Tristan Hughes]

And was Leonidas remembered outside of Sparta as well in other Greek cities and indeed later with the rise of Macedon and the Hellenistic kingdoms, does his name become well known far and wide?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yes and no. The Spartans at Thermopylae get remembered and they are very much remembered as the good guys who almost won. Leonidas does get remembered, and often in an odd kind of way. So in the Middle Ages, Leonidas is the king of Athens who defeated Xerxes at Thermopylae and Xerxes runs away and ends up getting killed by his own men. So there's even manuscripts showing Xerxes running away and is getting so thirsty that he drinks from the Rivers filled with the blood of his men. And so this whole thing just gets completely mangled.

[Tristan Hughes]

Wow. But like from Roman times, when the Romans take over Sparta. So going back into ancient history, I read in my notes there's something called the Leonida or something that's also there at the time.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah. So there's the Leonidas games is clearly something that takes place in Sparta and it's something that kind of got revived when the Romans ended up going to war against the Parthians. So as they're about to go and fight against the dreaded foreigners in the east, they sort of revive this Spartan festival celebrating their great victory against the foreigners from the east.

[Tristan Hughes]

So that's where we also get Leonidas name in Roman tons. But probably not much else apart from that.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

No, not really. No.

[Tristan Hughes]

Gosh. Well, is there anything else we can mention about the legacy of Leonidas before modern times that people really picked up on? As you know, the Spartan king who loses life at thermopylae leading these 300 Spartans and the Thespians and so on?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

I think a really brilliant source and one that we. I never make my students read is there's an epic poem written by Richard Glover in the late 18th century which is an absolutely massive epic poem all about Leonidas and so celebrating his life and his achievements. And it was a massive success in England and it was massive success in continental Europe. Translated into German like nine times, that sort of thing. So Leonidas has been remembered and then discussed and debated. And then in more modern times, at the battle of Stalingrad, both the Soviets and the Germans were casting themselves as like leonidas and the 300 Spartans. Which is odd when you think about it that way, that both sides could identify him with him. The defenders and the attackers could both cast themselves as Spartan. Like that's so interesting.

[Tristan Hughes]

Do you think? There's also a sense that. I mean, so Plutarch and his parallel lives, his Lives of Eminent Greeks and Romans, he doesn't include one of Leonidas, does he?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

He said he did so in that work on the malice of Herodotus. He rips into Herodotus for all of the things he gets wrong in his narrative. And he has this whole section on Thermopylae and he says that Herodotus left out the good one liners from Leonidas and his fellow soldiers because there's one where someone said, an old man who he's tried to send home with a message and he said, I came to fight, not be a postman and decided to fight and die on the final day. And Herodotus has none of those. And he said, and I'll redress this when I write my life of Leonidas. But no life of Leonidas survived. Who he would have paired it with as a Roman would be a really interesting question as well. Exactly who would it have been?

[Tristan Hughes]

Odysseus Mus or someone like that who tries to also throw themselves in a battle. But I think I was going to go with that question was that, of course there's no Shakespeare play of Leonidas either. So I was thinking, like, would Leonidas name have been even better remembered down through history before the 20th century if he'd have had a widespread life in Plutarch that survived and a play from William Shakespeare's. We have Antony and Cleopatra and Julius Caesar?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

I would think so. And I think if there had been a Plutarch life, you could imagine Shakespeare thinking the tragedy of Leonidas would have been perfect in that way.

[Tristan Hughes]

Absolutely. This has been a fascinating insight into the story of Leonidas. And of course, last but not least, we should mention his legacy nearer the present day, Whether it's TV or film or comic books and the like. He's had even more of a resurgence over the past few decades.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think many people of my age saw repeats of the 300 Spartans from the 1960s on television.

[Tristan Hughes]

And that was a sword and sandal epic from the 1960s, wasn't it?

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of money was spent on that. And it was done in collaboration with the Greek government. And all of the extras, like all of the Persians and most of the Greeks, were played by Greek citizens doing military service. So it's a huge production. And Leonidas is this wonderful charismatic commander with really short hair because the Spartans didn't have long hair in the 1960s.

[Tristan Hughes]

Love that thinking.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

So there was that, and that was directly. There's a direct link between the 300 Spartans and Frank Miller's graphic novel 300. Cause Frank Miller in interviews has pointed out that he watched that when he was a kid. He watched it with his dad. And there was a moment towards the end of the film where he said, dad, the good, good guys are gonna lose, aren't they? And so he could see where this was coming. And so it really had an impact on him. So having made his name as a superhero comic writer, he decided to do something historical and really put it out there and came up with 300. And then that became the film 300 as well. Steven Presswell's novel the Gates of Fire was about Thermopylae. Leonidas has a huge role in that. Dianettis the we'll fight the Shade guy is in many ways the real hero of Pressfield's story, but Leonidas is is a central figure in that novel as well.

[Tristan Hughes]

How do you think Neonidas legacy will go on from the present day? I guess like the good and the bad potentially.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

I think whenever people see the Spartans at Thermopylae as the good guys, he will be painted as the leader of the good guys, the great hero who sacrificed himself. The more we start to unpick what the Spartans were like, play with the significance or lack thereof of defeating the Persians, his legacy will appear differently, I would think.

[Tristan Hughes]

Andrew this has been such a great chat. Last but certainly not least, you cover the story of Leonidas and the wider story of ancient Sparta in your new

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

book, which is called the Rise and Fall of an Ancient Superpower.

[Tristan Hughes]

It just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the show today.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

Thank you for having me.

[Tristan Hughes]

Well, there you go. There was Dr. Andrew Bayless talking all things the life of Leonidas. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Thank you so much for listening. Last few things from me. You know what I'm going to say. Please make sure to follow the Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That does really help us and you'll be doing us a big favor if you've been enjoying the show and would be kind enough to leave us a rating as well, where we'd really appreciate that. Don't forget, you can also sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week. Sign [e-mail] subscribe that's all from me. I'll see you in the next episode.

[Dr. Andrew Bayliss]

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