Loading summary
Transcript101 lines
- [00:01]
Oregon Home Care Representative
You can make a difference in someone's life, including your own, with a job in home care. These jobs offer flexible schedules, health care, retirement options and free training. They also provide paid time off and opportunities for overtime. Visit oregonhomecarejobs.com to learn more and apply. That's oregonhomecarejobs.com.
- [00:30]
Shopify Advertiser
When you think of skyrocketing brands like Aloe, Allbirds or Skims, it's easy to credit their success to great products, sleek branding and brilliant marketing. But here's the overlooked secret. The real magic lies in the engine behind the scenes, the business powering their business. For millions of brands, that engine is Shopify, making selling seamless for them and shopping effortless for us. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Alo Yoga uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com retail all lowercase go to shopify.com retail to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com retail There's a time and a.
- [01:14]
Podcast Host
Place for a filet of fish, but breakfast is for sausage biscuits. McDonald's breakfast comes first. Hey guys, I hope you're doing well. I'm all good here. I'm recording this intro right next to a loch in central Scotland for a very special upcoming Ancients episode. Stay tuned for that. Today's episode is all about one of the most extraordinary women from early imperial Rome. The Empress Livia, the wife of Augustus, the mother of his successor, Tiberius, and a woman who's developed quite an infamous reputation down through the centuries. But what's the fact and what's the fiction? That is what we're delving into today. I knew very little about Livia's story, so it was fascinating to learn more from our wonderful guest, Dr. Emma Southern. I really do hope you enjoy. Let's go. She was one of the most powerful women in the early Roman Empire. The wife of Augustus, first empress of Rome, Livia Drusilla. Throughout history, Livia has had quite the infamous reputation. Ever since ancient times, she's been portrayed as scandalous and manipulative, a murderous villainess who oversaw the deaths of multiple members of Augustus family to ensure that her son Tiberius became the next emperor. There were even rumors that she poisoned Augustus. But how much should we believe of these rumors? Who was the real Livia? Our guest is Dr. Emma Southern. Emma, welcome back to the podcast. It's a pleasure to have you back on the Ancients.
- [03:15]
Dr. Emma Southern
It is such a pleasure to be back. It feels like it's been ages. I've missed you. I've missed Your audience. I am thrilled whenever I get asked back.
- [03:23]
Podcast Host
Well, it has been too long. I've missed you, too. It's been over a year since we did Zenobia together. And now we're back to talk about another extraordinary woman from the ancient Roman world. I guess it's fair to say with Livia. Quite a scandalous reputation today, doesn't she? But do you feel, big question to start off more of a villain or more of a victim when it comes to Livia?
- [03:45]
Dr. Emma Southern
Oh, well, I don't think she's a victim. I will say that I don't know that she's that much of a villain. Like the villain reputation that she has comes very much from Robert Graves. But she's definitely not a victim either, because she is seemingly in control of everything that is happening and she has genuinely astonishing power in the Roman Empire. And if anything, I don't think that she is the serial killer that some portrayals of Livia have her being like a kind of creeping evil black widow in the center of a web of murders. But I don't ever see her as a victim, and I think that she would hate to be seen as a victim.
- [04:30]
Podcast Host
So with the sources that we have, Olivia, can you explain them, first of all? Because if this is the reign of Augustus, the beginning of the Roman Empire period, it feels like they're probably. You have quite a lot of sources to play with.
- [04:41]
Dr. Emma Southern
There are, because you cannot talk about Augustus really, without talking about Livia, not least because Livia's son from her marriage before Augustus becomes Augustus's heir, and so nobody is able to talk about him without talking about her. So all of the sources which discuss him, so all of the histories of the period, the Tacitus, the Suetonius, the Plutarch and Dio, all of them have at least something about Livia. And then anything that covers the kind of last, gasping few breaths of the Roman Republic and it's quote, unquote, restoration by Augustus have to include how Livia comes into his life, how Livia becomes such an important part of his reign, and then how it comes about that she becomes so important in the next reign, because she covers two. So anything that's on Tiberius also has to cover her because she's so important in his reign as well. And he's so like mom about everything, and she just will not step back out of the position that she has held in Augustus's reign. So we have tons of sources on her, and most of them are baffled by her position because it's so unique. Nobody has ever had a position before her like that. And it's a tough act for anybody to follow because she is simultaneously very, very private. Like everything that she does technically is very much within the acceptable realm of Roman womanhood. And she is. Never takes any position that she shouldn't take. She's very good at that. But at the same time, she obviously has so much power. She can grant consulships, she can get people a good job, she can make sure that people get the good legions or. Or give them money or sponsor them so that they can do whatever they want to do. And so she. She does have genuine political power and that freaks people out. So they talk about her a lot.
- [06:46]
Podcast Host
Generally speaking, with the people who do talk about Livia, if you've got almost that kind of. I don't want to say contrast, but as you say, very private, but also clearly has a lot of power. If they're a bit baffled by Livia generally, how do these people writing about her, how do they portray her generally?
- [07:02]
Dr. Emma Southern
Not brilliantly. They veer between kind of neutral and outright hostility. The most famous ones really are from Tacitus, who primarily covers her in the reign of Tiberius, because he doesn't really cover Augustus at all. And he is very, very good at insinuating that she. With a kind of the odd little descriptor. So he'll just say things like through the treachery of a stepmother, and therefore imply that she was involved with things. And then Dio, who is writing 250 years after Livia, so he's writing in about the 230s and working from Tacitus very clearly. And then he embellishes a lot. So a lot of the stories that you get, which are a bit more detailed about terrible things. Olivia did tend to come from Dio, and those two sources are very hostile towards her. Like in those, she is the wickedest stepmother of all wicked stepmothers. She is the worst wife of all wives. She is basically just a malevolent woman at the centre of power. And the fact that she is at the centre of power is very. Is in and of itself bad. But other people, when they write about her, unless she was alive at the time, in which case they're unbelievably flattering. So there's a bit with Ovid, the poet. Ovid was exiled by Augustus and then while in exile, wrote a lot of very flattering poems in a desperate attempt to come back. And at one point he says that she is the face of Juno and the body of Artemis, and You're like, I'm going to be honest here. This is a woman who's in her 60s and a Roman 60s as well. Like, I think that you're just being. If that's the best thing you can say about her, then that's not great. But. So they're either very, very flattering or very, very cruel.
- [08:50]
Podcast Host
You also mentioned there, of course, I mean, big names like Tacitus and Cassius Dio, those are two of the most recognizable Roman historian names that come down to us today. So, I mean, their negative portrayals, do you think their agendas, when they're writing their stories that have survived, do you think they have significantly influenced why Livia's name, you know, sometimes today does have a more infamous, scandalous reputation?
- [09:16]
Dr. Emma Southern
Yes, definitely, because they're so important in understanding that period. And people like Suetonius, who give us most of the gossip about the emperors, he's not that interested in her because he's writing a biography of Augustus and a biography of Tiberius. So she doesn't really appear that much. But with the people who are writing histories of the period, like Tacitus and Dio, she therefore can appear a lot because they can attach her to everything that happens. And specifically those two attach her to the deaths of every man in the Julio Claudian family, of which there are like, a distressing amount, like, it's a very unlucky family to be born into if you're a boy. The girls seem to do okay, but the boys die with a terrifying frequency. And it does eventually work out to be quite convenient for Livia. But. So they attach her to her every possible death, including eventually the death of Augustus, who they suggest she might have had a hand in as well, just in order. And then they create from this. This narrative of her, and they never say it outright, they just imply it by bringing it up over and over again that she murdered her way through the Julio Claudian family or the Julian family, in order to make sure that her son would be the next emperor and therefore she would hold onto her power. And then eventually, when Augustus is on his deathbed and he's kind of maybe thinking about making somebody else the heir, she kills Augustus in order to make sure that her plan will continue. And that's what you get then in I, Claudius, the TV show and the book. And then that is the one that becomes, like, cemented in people's image of her.
- [11:05]
Podcast Host
It's the I, Claudius portrayal, isn't it? That is really.
- [11:08]
Dr. Emma Southern
Yeah, the Sian Phillips is exactly.
- [11:10]
Podcast Host
That has endured for Decades, hasn't it? I mean, and we will explore some of those stories. But it was important to highlight this straight away to understand, you know, why you get those portrayals and where they originate from with certain of our sources. I must also ask, then, Livia, she's very important at the time of Augustus and of her son Tiberius, with the wealth of sources that you have. It's not just written sources, is it? Do you also have archaeology that. That helps historians understand sought fact from fiction with the actual figure of Livia?
- [11:43]
Dr. Emma Southern
We do tons of it and interesting types of it as well. So we have all of her public statuary. So she's the female face of Augustus's reign, and he is, like, recreating Roman culture from scratch, really. So she gets put out as this kind of unaging vision ideal of feminine virtue. Over and over again in all of his statuary, on his coins, she appears over and over again as kind of various female virtues of chastity and fecundity and all of these other things. And she is put out as this idea of family and continuity and female virtue that he wishes to portray. But then we also have the archaeology of her actual life. So we have things like her palaces that she lived in. So Livia's house on the Palatine is still there, and various homes that she owned all over Italy, which you can see because of the, like, bricks which have been stamped with her name on.
- [12:44]
Podcast Host
Wow.
- [12:44]
Dr. Emma Southern
And there's a mausoleum in Rome, which is a columbaria, so it's like a private mausoleum, which was a place for people who were enslaved in the house of Livia to be buried. So it's exclusively people who were in her household and very often just their names and job titles. But we can kind of reconstruct what it was like inside her house from knowing that there was somebody in her house whose job was exclusively to look after her white dresses, and someone whose job it was to just look after her gold cups.
- [13:19]
Podcast Host
Wow.
- [13:20]
Dr. Emma Southern
Somebody whose job is very like. It's a word that has never been used before or again in Latin, and nobody knows what it means, but either means somebody who looked after her handbags or someone who folded her clothes, and that was their job. So we have all of, like, this huge amount of archaeology of how she is portrayed by Augustus and by his regime, which is as modest and always young, always very kind of neat and tidy, and the kind of feminine virtue of wool spinning and that kind of thing. And then we have this, what her life was actually like. Riches that she had a whole load of people, a whole load of clothes and a whole load of cups. Like a lot of stuff and buildings and holiday homes and. Yeah, she was extraordinarily rich, so it's nice to be able to see multiple sides of her.
- [14:12]
Podcast Host
Absolutely extraordinary. Clothes and cups. There you go.
- [14:15]
Dr. Emma Southern
Yeah.
- [14:15]
Podcast Host
If we go back to the beginning, then. So pre the Emperor Augustus in the late Roman Republic. I mean, do we know much about Livia's early years, Emma?
- [14:26]
Dr. Emma Southern
We do, because they're unbelievable. She had a whole life in the first, like 20 years of her life. She did more in the first 20 years than I've managed in about 40 because she is. She's married by the time she's 15. So she gets married in 43 BCE, so the year after Julius Caesar is executed, and she marries a guy called Tiberius Nero, who is very much on the anti Julius Caesar side of things.
- [14:52]
Podcast Host
Oh, okay.
- [14:54]
Dr. Emma Southern
And that's where she's up. The next year she gives birth to Tiberius. So she's 16 when she gives birth to him and immediately gets caught up in the civil wars that happen in the aftermath of Julius Caesar's assassination on the opposite side to Octavian, who then becomes Augustus. So one of the first things we know about her is that she has to escape from a town in Italy which Octavian is besieging because she joins the. Well, her husband joins the rebellion against him basically, and against his land confiscations. And they have to escape. And they almost have to leave Tiberius, the baby behind because he is crying so much that he is going to give them away. And it's only that she manages to calm him down. But there's literally an escape from by night in order to get to Greece. They then go to Greece where they have to, for some reason, possibly her husband just upset some people. They have to escape from Sparta as well when the house is burned down. But she has to flee across the empire. And by the time she is like 19, she has already had to travel around in a civil war, choosing the wrong side, basically. And then at some point when she is pregnant with her second child, she meets Octavian in person and he just falls head over heels in love with her. And he's a few years older than her and he's also calling himself Julius Caesar and has a big army and is scary and essentially he is like, I would like to marry you. And she's like, well, I'm married and pregnant. He's like, I see no problems. I don't. I don't see what the problem is. And so they Wait until she has her second child, Drusus, and then get married like days later. And he just steals her from her husband, basically. And we kind of have to assume by how incredibly dedicated she is to his cause after that that she was also into him or at least learned to be into him because she, you know, genuinely spends the next 50 years of her life supporting him in every possible way and wait, like above and beyond what she would need to. But it is a extraordinary. And she's 20 when she marries Octavian and she's on her second marriage, her second child, her second flee from opposing armies. And then she has this whole life of becoming and being an empress ahead of her. And she comes from this very, very ancient, very noble family.
- [17:31]
Podcast Host
Right, that's what I was going to ask. Like how prestigious a background did she have that could have also made her very attractive to Octavian, you know, this.
- [17:39]
Dr. Emma Southern
Also is potentially one of the reasons why he grabs her, although there's no shortage of Claudian women around. But she comes from this Claudian family who are incredibly ancient. They have hundreds of consuls and very famous names going right the way back to the time of Romulus in their family. And they have things like the Appian Way is named after a Claudian, Claudius Appius and the first aqueducts in Rome are Claudian. They are the family of Rome really, until Augustus comes along and gloms onto them and makes them the Julian Claudians. So she has this real weight of kind of old traditional republican power behind her in this little 20 year old buddy.
- [18:33]
Oregon Home Care Representative
You can make a difference in someone's life, including your own, with a job in home care. These jobs offer flexible schedules, health care, retirement options and free training. They also provide paid time off and opportunities for overtime. Visit oregonhomecarejobs.com to learn more and apply. That's oregonhomecarejobs.com.
- [19:02]
Shopify Advertiser
When you think of skyrocketing brands like Aloe, Allbirds or Skims, it's easy to credit their success to great products, sleek branding and brilliant marketing. But here's the overlooked secret. The real magic lies in the engine behind the scenes, the business powering their business. For millions of brands, that engine is Shopify, making selling seamless for them and shopping effortless for us. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Alo yoga uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.comretail all lowercase. Go to shopify.comretail to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.comretail Comcast is committed to bringing access.
- [19:46]
Podcast Host
To the Internet to all Americans, including rural communities across the country like Sussex County, Delaware.
- [19:52]
Dr. Emma Southern
We were being left behind. Everybody around us seemed to have Internet, but we did not. High speed Internet is one of those good things that we needed to help us move our farming, our small businesses, our recreation forward.
- [20:05]
Podcast Host
Learn more about how we're bringing our next generation network to more people across the country@comcastcorporation.com investmentinamerica Propel Fitness water with.
- [20:16]
Dr. Emma Southern
Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help.
- [20:22]
Shopify Advertiser
You get the most out of your.
- [20:23]
Dr. Emma Southern
Workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes.
- [20:45]
Podcast Host
So this is the time he said the civil wars are there. It's before Octavian becomes the Emperor Augustus and you've still got the likes of Mark Anthony and ultimately Cleopatra. So this is the. The 30s BC, but do we know during that period where Octavian is rising, but you've still got the likes of Mark Anthony opposing him kind of, you know, the turbulent relationship that they have. Do we know much about the dynamic between young Livia and young Octavian during that decade? Whilst it is before he becomes the emperor, before he becomes Augustus, we know less.
- [21:18]
Dr. Emma Southern
So other than kind of generic things. Like, Suetonius says that whenever he would talk to her about important things, he would always make notes so that he wouldn't say the wrong thing, which makes her sound like if he did say the wrong thing, she'd give him a kick. But we don't know a huge amount about what they're up to other than the fact that they were trying to have children and they desperately want a child. And they do. They have a child who is either stillborn or dies very early and then are unable to have any of their own. They've both got children from their previous marriages, but neither of them, they're not, for whatever genetic reason, able to have children together. And so that seems to be the main focus because Augustus, particularly in those era, in that time, is using, you know, marriage and children as a way to legitimize himself, to legitimize his reign, to try to stabilise everything. So he's marrying his sister off, he's marrying any. His daughter off, he's marrying everyone to everyone in an attempt to create kind of a web of alliances that eventually falls apart. But the main focus of those early years seems to be wanting children.
- [22:25]
Podcast Host
And is Octavian faithful to Livia in this early stage of his life?
- [22:29]
Dr. Emma Southern
No. No Roman man was Ever faithful. If they had been, they would have thought they were weird. Now, apparently he has a predilection for virgins. And one of the things that gets thrown at her, actually, is that she would procure them for him. But in his younger years. But no, very much not. He has a thing for writing, like, horrible poetry around women as well, so. And there's the very classic or quite famous letter that Mark Antony writes to Octavian.
- [22:58]
Podcast Host
I was thinking about this letter. Yes, please tell us about this letter.
- [23:02]
Dr. Emma Southern
Yeah, basically, it's after he has run off with Cleopatra and abandoned Octavia, who is Augustus's sister. And he has said, so what if I'm having sex with the queen? Like, are you telling me that you haven't had sex with every woman in Rome? And then he lists off a load of names, like, why do I have to keep it in my toga if you don't have to keep it in yours? Basically. And he's not wrong. But the difference is that Octavian Augustus sees a PR opportunity, whereas Mark Antony only sees the reality of what's in front of. And he never understands that Octavian doesn't really care that he's having sex with Cleopatra. What he cares about is that it looks bad and he could use it.
- [23:43]
Podcast Host
Is it after then, that final showdown between Octavian and Mark Antony and Cleopatra, the Battle of Actium and then the Battle of Alexandria, when Octavian is the top dog, Mark Antony is out of the picture, and we get to the 20s B.C. is this really when we start getting more information about Livia, too, in the sources and just in her story?
- [24:04]
Dr. Emma Southern
Yeah. So this is when we start to get. Because Augustus then makes the family and the Julio Claudian family so central to his propaganda and reshaping what the Roman family is, that he starts to bring her to the fore and starts to put her way more in his statuary, in his coinage, on his art, and he starts to pull her out so that he can parade around their wonderful marriage. And he reshapes himself because he's been a warlord up until this point. He's been a general, and now he can't be a general anymore because there's no one left to fight. So he has to be a statesman, and a statesman has a wife. And so all of a sudden, he becomes very interested in making sure that she and his daughter as well are presenting themselves and are being presented as idealized women. And so we start to get more of her, you know, walking around and people worrying about who she's friends with, people, but also that means that she gets to have much more control over things like who she wants to sponsor. You know, she starts taking in children that she can raise, who will be the next generation of Roman senators. She starts, which may sound like she's collecting children, which she is to an extent, but they start looking to the future at that point, basically. And as a unit, they start to build what we now know of as the Julio Claudian family and the system. And she's very much a part of that.
- [25:38]
Podcast Host
You mentioned the portrayals in art and coinage. I'm guessing architecture as well. Can you explain a few examples of that and how they're portrayed together? You know, in this next chapter, in October, I guess we should say now, Augustus's story, if he's now being proclaimed Augustus. Can you explain a bit about how they portray themselves together in this next chapter of their life?
- [25:57]
Dr. Emma Southern
So they now start to portray themselves as kind of the parents of the. The parents of the state. Essentially, he becomes the father of the country, and as a result, she becomes kind of by default the mother of the country. And you start to get lots of these portraits of them being very pious. So lots of them with their head covered, lots of statues of them being. So she always has very, very tied up, neat, modest hair, basically, because she is. There are all of these ideas of control and modesty that are around women that are very tied up to hair. So she always has this very specific haircut and hair kind of in a little bun that is not dissimilar from how my hair is at the moment. Now I'm thinking about it. And she's always in a mantle like a proper Roman woman, married Roman woman. She often will have her hair covered in some way. And she is always being presented as a kind of republican ideal of a perfect, chaste, modest, pious wife. And then you hear stories about her and she sounds terrifying.
- [27:17]
Podcast Host
And so how does she exercise power differently during this period? You mentioned the gathering of children, but is she also kind of like a patron of arts and stuff like that? Is there a way through which she can really show her power in a very different way than Augustus does, you know, as this very kind of public overt leader of the people?
- [27:37]
Dr. Emma Southern
Yes, well, she has her own kind of moments of public overt. She has. The portico of Livia is built quite early on, which is, you know, a big space which is built in the Forum and then named after her, and is a real big statement of her importance to the regime, because then everybody has to say, oh, do you want to meet for Board games at the Portuguese Bolivia. And it's a real statement. But what she does is she largely does everything in the way that she is supposed to, which is that she has dinners with people, she meets people, she talks to people, she maneuvers people around. So, for example, the Emperor Galba, who is emperor for like eight months in 68 to 69 after the death of Nero, his career is sponsored almost entirely by Livia at the beginning. So she, like, pays for him, she makes sure that he gets positions at the beginning. She. She is responsible for him eventually becoming a very bad emperor. And she. There's also this wonderful moment. This actually happens in Tiberius's reign. But I think that it's telling of what she's used to doing, which is that she basically draws up a list of people that she wants for a particular set of magistracies. So to be praetor, to be consul or whatever. She's like, these are the guys that I want for the next round. And he says no. And she gets so furious at Tiberius that she starts pulling out all of these letters that Augustus has written about him and chasing him around the house and is like, when you were 18, Augustus said you were horrible. And basically, that's her. She's so used to being able to say, well, I want Galba to have the consulship and have Augustus say, okay. When Tiberius says no, she's just completely thrown by it. So that is how she is able to exercise this power. And it's through advising Augustus and saying, well, I think we should do this. And I think that Galba should be praetor and she can do this so much.
- [29:47]
Podcast Host
But Emma, I guess, of course that's important to highlight, isn't it? Because it is still quite an experimental time. Of course, Augustus has seen Julius Caesar die a horrific death because he pushed the boundaries a bit too much. So I guess, is Livia really helping and advising Augustus, especially in these early stages, to make sure he doesn't take a wrong step? Particularly when you've got these senators and probably got quite a few hawks looming around him in the Senate and in Rome at the time.
- [30:16]
Dr. Emma Southern
Yeah. And having her there as a partner almost makes him look more reasonable in what he's doing. She's almost a kind of legitimising cover because he's like, you know, look, I'm just acting like any guy would. It's not me out here being like, I'm not a dictator, I'm not consul for life. I'm not a military guy. I'm now just a Man with his wife and we're just giving you advice. She gives me advice, I give you advice. It just so happens that you all agree 100% of the time that our advice is the best, so they're able to present themselves as just a normal family, like everyone's wife gives them advice. It just so happens that my wife gives the best advice. And just so happens that my wife knows all of the senators. Another thing that we see in the reign of Tiberius, which is never mentioned during the reign of Augustus, but is again a thing that Tiberius stops her doing, so we know that she was doing it, is she would have dinners at her house with the senators. So she would have them over for dinner in her private residence rather than in the emperor's kind of public residence, which Tiberius says she's not allowed to do anymore. She's only allowed to meet with women. But she's like, if she's there, she's also not just advising Augustus, she's also talking to all the senators was like, you know, might be a great idea. What if I. You tell me and I'll tell Augustus, or. No, it'd be a lovely idea if you all listen to what I had to say. So she's very involved from quite early on in building what Augustus builds from the ground up.
- [31:51]
Podcast Host
And as you say, she's helping certain figures. You mentioned the future Emperor Galba there earlier. But with Augustus, I sometimes think of. He had a few intellectuals around him as well, didn't you? Like Virgil with the Aeneid and so on. Do we think that Livia had her own circle of intellectuals or people? She really valued philosophers and so on in her own circle.
- [32:12]
Dr. Emma Southern
She does have philosophers around her, although it's never considered to be particularly feminine to surround yourself with philosophers. So it's not something that they ever make a big deal of for her. Like, unlike later emperors, when it's become a bit more acceptable for women to be intellectual at the time that she is like, she has philosophers who are like her personal philosophers, but they are always her personal philosophers. She's never sponsoring their careers in a public way. Like the way that, you know, Augustus has Maecenas and then he's paying for Virgil and he's promoting the works of certain people like Horace as being kind of fundamental to his project. For her to do that, it would not be considered appropriate feminine behaviour. That would be considered to be a bit too public to be intellectual. And coming out of the late republican tradition where it's considered to be. That's the kind of Thing that a Clodia or a Fulvia would do would be to hang out with artists. And therefore it's a bit libertine and she is never a libertine woman. The veneer of conservativism, which is disguising the amount of antiquate radical politics that they are doing.
- [33:24]
Podcast Host
I certainly would never call myself an expert on this period, but it always feels to me, almost looking in, that the 20s BC is this kind of transitional period where, you know, Augustus and Livia are trying to make sure they don't overstep the mark, but increasing their power, making sure they don't follow in Caesar's footsteps. Do we know how Livia also balances that out with raising her two sons at that moment of time? Of course, they're both teenagers, aren't they? And they're now finding themselves not a lot, actually. Fair enough. Okay.
- [33:53]
Dr. Emma Southern
It is not something that aristocratic women really do, which is raise their own children particularly. They get them teachers and they get them wet nurses. And it would be considered quite weird for her to be overly involved in the raising of her children. They get involved with them when they're adults and then they suddenly become very invested. But aristocratic women and children don't necessarily go like you just farm them out until they're eight.
- [34:21]
Podcast Host
Shall we move on to the year 23 BC because this feels. It's quite a big year for Augustus and Livia, isn't it? You've got illness and you also have a death like the first big death of that of the family.
- [34:36]
Dr. Emma Southern
It is the first big death of the family and it's huge for Livia and huge for Augustus. This is the death of Marcellus, who is the son of Octavia from her first marriage and is at that time the 16 year old husband of Julia, who is Augustus's daughter from his previous marriage. Julia, Claudia.
- [34:56]
Podcast Host
And Octavius is Augustus's sister.
- [34:57]
Dr. Emma Southern
Is his sister, yeah. So he has basically been marked out as the person that Augustus seems to be choosing as his successor. So he is giving him lots of privileges, he's giving him lots of space. He has been giving him commands in the army already, even though he's a teenager, he's married, he's made him a son in law, which is quite a big deal. And all of a sudden there is a plague that runs through Rome. Octavia, Augustus, he's Augustus by now, gets sick from it, Marcellus gets sick from it, but Marcellus dies and he is then given a huge public funeral and this is treated. This is the first time that the Julio Claudian family is treated like they are a royal family, really, because his death is not just a private death, it is now a death for the Empire. He's written into the Aeneid all of a sudden, then everybody kind of mourns him. And then because he has died so young, he is a teenager, rumours start to swirl that this was maybe not a natural death. And then, although that doesn't seem to have happened that much at the time, people start to look back on it afterwards and say, include him in the list of suspicious deaths in the Julio Claudian family. But it is. It's the point at which all of the good luck that they have had up until this point, like Octavian's run up until 23, is kind of fairly flawless. Like, he wins everything. He has eliminated all of his enemies, everybody loves him, almost no one's trying to kill him. And then 23 Marcellus dies. And it's the first time that one of his plans has kind of not gone through. And from there, things start to kind of hurdle a little bit.
- [36:49]
Podcast Host
It kind of doesn't it. And I can imagine what Livia is thinking at the same time, because over the following years, as you've hinted at there, this isn't the first. Marcellus, sadly, is not the first. I mean, Augustus plans seem to just fall left, right and centre like dominoes.
- [37:04]
Dr. Emma Southern
They do. And that point, it starts to become, like, within a few years, being marked out as his heir seems to be like a curse, like, so. Then, having kind of run out of nephews, Augustus then adopts two of his own grandchildren. So his daughter, he then marries off to Marcus Agrippa, his best friend, and they have a load of children, and he adopts the oldest two and takes them as his sons, and then he starts raising them as his children and to be his heirs. So he's clearly grooming them from a very young age to take over the empire. They're called Gaius and Lucius. Marcus Agrippa dies, but he's like, he is in his 50s, so that's like, not considered to be so terrible. But then, in very rapid succession, within six years of each other, Gaius dies of illness in Marseille. And then Lucius dies. He's stabbed to death because he's not very clever, and he's at war with an enemy in the east. And they say to him, do you want to come over and we'll just have a sit down and talk about this? And he goes, yeah, all right. And they were like, oh, chokes on you. This is actually an assassination. Yeah, it's actually really easy. So they stab him and he dies of his stab wounds and then he adopts his final grandson, who's called Agrippa Postumus, who then turns out to be a bit odd or a bit violent in some way, and he has to exile him because he just can't be trusted to be, like, in the city. And at this point, it's just getting a bit like there's kind of four guys who have been made his heir and who have died. And he adopts Tiberius, who is Livia's oldest son, who is basically the only adult man left around. Everyone else is a baby and by the time you get to about 4 CE, there's no one left. And so he has to make Tiberius his heir. And Tiberius is a perfectly fine heir, but people around who don't really want there to be another emperor, who are not still kind of getting used to this idea that there's one guy who is in charge of everything and an extra judicial, extralegal fashion, it looks incredibly suspicious that all of these young men have just keeled over as soon as Augustus starts to like them. And then Augustus dies, and that doesn't help either. And then the final one is Germanicus, who was a big favourite of Augustus, who he seems to have wanted to make a co heir, possibly with Tiberius, and he forces Tiberius to adopt him, but he also dies when he's very young, in mysterious circumstances. Right. Like quite early on in Tiberius's reign while Livia is still alive. So everybody, by the end of this and by the time you get to people like Tacitus and Dio writing 150 to 100 years later, they're like, there's coincidence and there's coincidence because if we.
- [40:11]
Podcast Host
Focus on those figures who died whilst Augustus was still alive, you know, and it ultimately ends up with Tiberius being named his successor. Is that the fact that it is Livia's son that you do ultimately later get these stories that suggest, oh, given that these other intended heirs of Augustus die unusually young, Livia must have been involved some way or something like that. There's no evidence. It's just that rumour starts to emerge that she's involved in their demises. Right?
- [40:36]
Dr. Emma Southern
She's basically. It's kind of a, you know, cui bono, who benefits? Situation, which is that young people dying is always upsetting and they are all very young. You know, they're all teenagers. I think that Lucius is the oldest at about 21, and when young people die, everyone thinks there Must be something that could have prevented it. Like these must be some kind of preventable death. So there's actually a line in Plutarch which is completely not to do with this at all. But he says in an epitaph, he says, like, when a young person dies, we always assume poison. And that is what happens here. Even though, you know, Marcellus dies of something that Augustus is also sick from, he just doesn't recover. Gaius dies in Marseille. And so if Livia can poison from, like from Rome to Marseilles, then that's pretty impressive. Lucius dies of a stab wound, which you can't call poison no matter how hard you try. And if you think that she was involved in it, then you have to think that she was like in with the Parthians, like Rome's great enemy, making plots to secretly kill people, which, again, very impressive, but I don't think so. It's a cascade of bad luck that people perceive her to be benefiting from it, which in a way she does, but it would be harder for her to have done it than for her to not have done it.
- [41:53]
Podcast Host
That's an absolutely fair point.
- [42:03]
Dr. Emma Southern
You can make a difference in someone's life, including your own, with a job in home care. These jobs offer flexible schedules, health care, retirement options and free training. They also provide paid time off and opportunities for overtime. Visit oregonhomecarejobs.com to learn more and apply. That's oregonhomecarejobs.com.
- [42:31]
Shopify Advertiser
When you think of skyrocketing brands like Aloe, Allbirds or Skims, it's easy to credit their success to great products, sleek branding and brilliant marketing. But here's the overlooked secret. The real magic lies in the engine behind the scenes, the business powering their business. For millions of brands, that engine is Shopify, making selling seamless for them and shopping effortless for us. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Alo Yoga uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.comretail, all lowercase go to shopify.comretail to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.comretail.
- [43:29]
Podcast Host
Shall we explore another relationship Livia has during the reign of Augustus? 1, which I think is really interesting to cover because it. I guess we can also use it to explore her relations with women in this emerging imperial family, which is, of course, Augustus's young daughter, Julia. Now, Emma, can you give us a bit of a backstory to Julia? You've mentioned how she was married to Marcellus, who died young in 23 BC and then marries the much older Agrippa Augustus's best friend. But can you explain a bit more about who she was and her character and how she ultimately comes to blows with Livia?
- [44:07]
Dr. Emma Southern
She does. So she is the daughter of Augustus first wife Scribonia, and they don't get on at all. And Augustus divorces her on the day that Julia is born.
- [44:19]
Podcast Host
That's not good. That's not good for the child, I must say.
- [44:22]
Dr. Emma Southern
It's not. And then he kind of abandons them. And you get the feeling that he probably would have kept them in like, had little to no interest in her for most of the time, except that he didn't have any children with Livia. And so he takes her and takes her into the palace and then starts to raise her and uses her as a proxy for a son, basically as a way of making sons in law. So her job is that she marries men and has children, and then the men that she marries have been marked as his successor. So she marries Marcellus when she's a teenager, when he dies, she marries Marcus Agrippa when they have six children, when Marcus Agrippa dies, then she is married to Tiberius. And that's when things start to go wrong because they absolutely despise each other. And in fairness to Julia, she's very well behaved up until that point. So for like first 30 years of her life, she does exactly as she is told. She has the children, she marries the men, she doesn't cause too much trouble, but she is married to Tiberius. They despise each other quite violently and they both go off the rails at the same point. But she basically, her revenge or her rebellion against her father is that she just starts having sex with absolutely everybody. And it seems that she's always had quite a kind of lively personality. Like she's always been interested in having parties and telling jokes and looking pretty and hanging out with fun people, much to the disapproval of Livia and Augustus. They're always. There's this 4th century collection by a guy called Macrobius which has all of these kind of jokes that they tell. And it's always Augustus being like, why can't you have better friends like Livia? Like, why do you have to be surrounded by handsome young men? Why can't you be more like your stepmother who is always surrounded by like old wise men? Why can't like, why do you have to pluck out all of your grey hairs? Why are you wearing makeup? Why are you wearing such a pretty dress? That kind of thing? And she just kind of goes a bit wild and the Stories are of her having an affair with Mark Antony's surviving son.
- [46:31]
Podcast Host
Yes.
- [46:32]
Dr. Emma Southern
Yeah. So which is a real kind of like, two fingers up to dad. And then real wild story is about her having sex on the rostra in the Forum. So in, like, the centre of the Roman Republic, of having sex on or nearby, a Statue of Liberty, which opponents to Augustus used, like, really publicly and flagrantly and quite aggressively, like, flaunting the fact that she's really angry at her dad. And when he finds out about it, which is quite quickly, he has her exiled to an island and says that she is never allowed to speak to a man ever again. Unless they're very ugly.
- [47:17]
Podcast Host
Is that line really in there? Unless they are very ugly, she cannot speak to a man.
- [47:23]
Dr. Emma Southern
Yeah. So eventually he relents and after five years, she is allowed to move back to mainland Italy and live in a town, but he still will not allow men to visit her.
- [47:33]
Podcast Host
And with Livia, do you think Livia is involved in that at all? It doesn't sound like they had a very good relationship.
- [47:37]
Dr. Emma Southern
They did not have a particularly good relationship, but everything that you get, actually, is Augustus being furious, like, because the people. And Livia seems to largely stay out of it, although there's a question over whether she owned the house that he. That she was exiled to. But she certainly doesn't feel any sympathy towards Julia, because when Augustus dies, she does nothing to help her. And Augustus is furious and I suspect Livia is equally furious. Like, whenever people say, won't you let Julia come back to Rome? He's like, no, I'd literally rather die. He never ever forgives her.
- [48:18]
Podcast Host
Well, let's move on then, to 14 AD. This is the death of Augustus and Livia's still around. But even Augustus's death, this is also a story where Livia, that more scandalous side of Livia that has survived to us today thanks to the likes of Tacitus and Cassius Dio, it rears its head here as well.
- [48:40]
Dr. Emma Southern
It does. I actually kind of love this story because basically it seems that the core of it is that when Augustus died, he's like, 80, 86, I think. She didn't let the information out of the palace for a little while and she made sure that everybody was on board with Tiberius before she told anybody that he was dead. And as a result, this kind of then spirals into stories and the earliest sources are kind of a bit tiptoe about it. So they'll be like, oh, maybe I'm not 100%. There were rumours and Suspicions. And Pliny says something like Pliny the Elder, who is a natural historian polymath, he says that there was kind of suspicions that there were intrigues involved. So you get this kind of innuendo about it. And then you get Cassius Dio, who has no time for innuendo whatsoever, and he's like, right, this is what happened. She knew that he was going to make his adopted son Agrippa Posthumus. He was going to bring him back from exile and he was going to make him emperor instead of Tiberius, and she wasn't having any of that. And she found out about it, but she knew that he had tasters and that she couldn't poison him. So they went for a walk around their garden and picked figs from the tree. But beforehand she had painted poison on some of the figs. So she picked one that she knew there wasn't poison on and ate it and then picked a poisoned one and gave it to him. And that's how she killed him. Which, you know, as a story is great. And if she did, also great. But also he was 86 years old. She probably could have just waited a minute.
- [50:15]
Podcast Host
I'm glad that we mentioned the poison fig story, because it is. It's quite an image to think about. And I guess also we should mention the kind of the weird Agrippa Posthumus. I mean, he doesn't survive long after Augustus's death anyway. Do you think Livy is involved? I don't want to say understandable, but if you're in their mindset, you know, Tiberius is the new emperor. You don't want a potential rival there. So do you think she is potentially involved in sending someone to get rid of, to do away with the group of Posthumus when Augustus dies?
- [50:45]
Dr. Emma Southern
I think probably, yes. That is much more likely that she would at least approve of that. And I think she probably also approved because Julia also dies that year. They starved Julia to death.
- [50:58]
Podcast Host
Oh, goodness.
- [50:59]
Dr. Emma Southern
Which, yes, is extremely cruel. But they're. And I think that, yeah, they either she or she and Tiberius together agree that they can't have any rivalry to his claim. And so these are the two adults who are of Augustus's bloodline because Tiberius isn't. They make him part of a bloodline by posthumously adopting Livia. So the moment that Augustus dies, Livia becomes his sister. Like, legally, she is then Julia Augusta, his sister wife, which makes then it totally find that Tiberius is his son. Very weird. But the whole. Yeah. So the idea that you need to get rid of these two Adult rivals who might be able to say that they have a better claim to Augustus's inheritance than Livia and Tiberius do, is extremely reasonable to me. And she's not. You know, the things that Augustus does while they are married, some of them are incredibly brutal. And she clearly has no problem with eliminating rivals if you need to. She doesn't do it in the kind of Mr. Burns way that we imagine people doing it. Like, she's not like Fulvia, Mark Antony's wife, who sticks pins in Cicero's tongue and stuff like that. She is just much more like, you know, we'll get it done, kill them. I don't need to. And I think that she would be extremely fine with that happening.
- [52:30]
Podcast Host
She's incredibly experienced of the early imperial life by that time, isn't she, of several decades married to Augustus and the like. I guess we should also mention perhaps something that may well also motivate her, that the fact that now you mentioned earlier, she has two sons, Tiberius and Drusus, by this time, Drusus, though, he's dead. So it is just Tiberius, her only son left.
- [52:50]
Dr. Emma Southern
Yes. So Drusus dies while off on campaign in Germany, and so Tiberius is everything, and he only has one son as well. But so there is a very slim margin for her, her family to survive, really, or her direct line to survive and thrive. And so it's very important. And I do also think that after what she lived through, you know, she did experience the Civil wars, and a large part of why everybody accepts Augustus's kind of claim to suddenly be a king who isn't a king, and then Tiberius's claim to be a successor that isn't a successor is that nobody wants that again, nobody wants the prescriptions, nobody wants the battles, nobody wants Romans killing Romans. And she can justify that to herself and everybody can justify it to themselves that if you have to kill kind of one difficult man on an island in order to prevent a civil war, then maybe it's okay and she can. And in order to keep this peace going, maybe we need to make some sacrifices. And whether you agree with her or not is up to you, but you can see how she could. You know, she has been chased as a young woman while holding her baby twice out of burning cities, and you could see how she would not want either herself or anyone else to experience that.
- [54:16]
Podcast Host
So Tiberius, when he succeeds Augustus, he's in his 50s or 60s, isn't he? And Livia's in her 60s or thereabouts. So how does she fare in the early years of Tiberius, then, if she's left in a prominent position as Augusta by Augustus when he dies, how important a role does she play in Tiberius reign, let's say in the early years.
- [54:39]
Dr. Emma Southern
First of all, a much more important role than Tiberius would like, because Tiberius is very conservative. And I think that what he would like is for quite a conservative version of the Principate, whereby he genuinely is just the first man who gives advice and everybody takes it if they want to. And the fact that nobody will like, everybody keeps treating him like he is an emperor and he kind of struggles to understand that he is. So he really does try immediately to get Livia out of the more political side of her life. So he starts vetoing her choices. He stops, Tries to stop her from having so much contact with senators and with prominent men and with political figures. He shuts down her parties and tries to force her into a much more kind of passive role. And her responses to get out these letters and say, you're only there because of me, basically, like, your stepdad never liked you anyway. And I have saved these letters for decades, just in case they ever needed them and to chase them around the house. And she clearly is by that point very settled into her position as a powerful woman, as a woman who knows what she's doing, who can and should be able to advise her son, who doesn't know what he's doing and does go on to mess it up quite badly. So, like, nobody remembers Tiberius with any great love and one wonders if they might have liked him more if he'd taken his mother's advice because she knew a thing or two about public opinion and how to shape it.
- [56:19]
Podcast Host
So is there a moment early on, a few years in, when Tiberius is just like, right, I'm fed up. No, go away or I'm removing certain honours from you or whatever. I'm gonna do it my way. And, you know, it all goes. But I know it's always so kind of like, people always want to find a moment where it all starts going wrong or where Livia's influence with her son starts to diminish. Is there a rough time where we can see that change in their opinion? Almost.
- [56:43]
Dr. Emma Southern
Well, eventually he quits Rome altogether. In order to get away from him.
- [56:48]
Podcast Host
Is it to get away from his mum?
- [56:50]
Dr. Emma Southern
Pretty much to get away from everybody. But he does badly want to get away from his mum as well. He spends more and more time outside of Rome because she won't leave him alone, essentially. And he doesn't even come back to Rome when She dies. Like he doesn't go to her funeral or anything. He won't deify her. And so eventually he does, yeah, he does quit Rome in order to get away from her, which is quite a big deal.
- [57:17]
Podcast Host
So during the reign of Tiberius, Emma, Livia, she's getting older. But you did mention earlier there's another big death that happens at this time with the death of Germanicus. And that Livia, I don't want to say involved, but she's mentioned in this story. Can you explain this story and how it affects Livia?
- [57:34]
Dr. Emma Southern
Yes. So Germanicus is the husband of Augustus's granddaughter, Agrippina, Agrippina the Younger, and is very, very popular. He's like the Princess Diana of the early Roman world. Like, people absolutely will flock to see him. They love, he's handsome, he's successful, he's got loads of children, everyone adores him, Augustus adored him and people basically love him more than they love Tiberius. And so when he goes off on a mission to the east and goes to Syria and then dies of some mysterious illness, everyone, including his wife, believed that Tiberius and Livia conspired to kill him. And they believe that he was poisoned by a guy called Piso and his wife. And so when Pisa and Urginilla come back to Rome, they are prosecuted for this murder. And it is like the most high profile, you know, it is imperial family against imperial family, like mega tabloid thing. And Piso is taken to trial. He's a, you know, a very close friend of Tiberius's, but he is taken to trial and eventually kills himself. But Livia takes his wife Ergonilla into her house and won't let her be prosecuted. And whenever people come by and say, we would like to arrest her on suspicion of murder, she's just like, no, I don't think you are actually. And she protects her, she just will not allow her to be prosecuted. And it is a real flex on her part that Tiberius doesn't feel he can do for his friend. But Livia feels no compunction by this stage. She's in her 70s and this is like 20 CE ish. And she's just feels she's got nothing left to care about at this stage. Like, what are you going to do to me? It does make her very unpopular. They're also because they refuse to come to Germanicus funeral, basically they just won't leave the palace for it. And so this fuels this idea that she paid for them to kill Germanicus because he was more popular than her son. But on a base level, it is a real, like, right at the end of her life, she has become more powerful even like in terms of what she can get away with than even the emperor, because he can't make her do it. No one can make her give up her friend. And her friend goes on to live a very happy life for another couple of decades.
- [60:00]
Podcast Host
It's interesting trying to imagine that Emma, you know, all of those decades that she's walked the tightrope really well with Augustus, you know, rising to this position of prominence by the time she's in her 70s, just like, no, not as fussed about popularity anymore. I'm in this prestigious position, I'm going to look after my friend kind of thing and happy to sacrifice some of that. So it's interesting how that you see that emerge more in the later stages of her life. I will ask quickly because we don't have too much time, but of course she doesn't live too long after that. What do we know about the final years and ultimately the death of Livia?
- [60:33]
Dr. Emma Southern
So her power wanes because Tiberius leaves Rome after that and moves to Capri and starts communicating with the empire via letter, which allows his right hand man, Sejanus Jaenis, to really take control of everything. And Livia is by that time quite elderly and quite, quite frail and has, without having her son there as her kind of conduit to power. She has no conduit to power. He has isolated her from a lot of the Senate. So she does spend the last few years of her life in a much less powerful position, in a kind of very much a figurehead position within the family and with no access to any real power anymore because Sejanus has taken it all. And this is what happens when you have a monarch. The person who has access, the most access to him gets the most power. And when she dies, Tiberius is not heartbroken really. He won't come back for the funeral. He refuses to deify her. He gives her kind of the smallest funeral that he can get away with giving her, given how incredibly important that she is. And then everyone thinks that he's a terrible son. It makes him even less popular and leaves Sejanus to kind of go rampaging through the state until such a time as Antonia stops him actually. But yeah, so it's not a sad end really because she still dies in her palace pretty much at the top of her game. And eventually she is deified by her great grandson. But she is, I suspect that if you had let her, she would have been like Augustus, like still writing letters and still deciding who was going to be the praetor and the urban prefect, right up until the moment she drew her last breath. But she just wasn't quite able to do it.
- [62:23]
Podcast Host
It's quite something indeed. Well, what a life she lived, what an extraordinary figure she is. And it's ultimately Claudius. Is it the Emperor Claudius who's her grandson or whoever who deifies that finally? And lastly, how do you think we should ultimately remember Livia today? Not a villain, not a victim. I mean, how should you. How should we think of Livia?
- [62:47]
Dr. Emma Southern
I think that you should remember Livia as like, an incredibly political woman. I think that her womanhood often gets in the way of how incredibly savvy she was. Like, because of the way that the world worked in the Roman Empire. She was only able to access her position because of who she was married to. Like, she would never have had that by herself. But of all of the women who have access to the amount of power that she had, she works it like, so much better than everyone else. Like, before her, you have Fulvia and Cleopatra, and after her you have people like Agrippina the Younger and Messalina who try to be like Augustuses, and she is the only one who does it well. And I think that she would be an unbelievable. Like Margaret Thatcher if she had been allowed to. And so I think that's probably how you should think of her, as a politician more than anything else. Like, who is very invested in her political project, which is allied with her husband's political project.
- [63:52]
Podcast Host
Emma, this has been absolutely fantastic. Last, but certainly not least, your most recent book. It's one of your recent books, isn't it? It, which explores the stories of many extraordinary women from ancient Rome, including Livia.
- [64:04]
Dr. Emma Southern
It doesn't include Livia because Livia already has two biographies and I wanted to do women who didn't have their own biographies and he. But it does include Julia, so it has got Julia Caesar in there, but it's a history of the Roman Empire in 21 women and goes from the beginning to the end of the Western empire through 21 women that you've probably never heard of.
- [64:24]
Podcast Host
Well, Emma just goes for me to say, as always, thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast.
- [64:30]
Dr. Emma Southern
It's always my pleasure.
- [64:35]
Podcast Host
Well, there you go. There was Dr. Emma Southern returning to the podcast to talk through the extraordinary story of Livia, the first Empress of Rome. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Ancients. Please follow us on Spotify or or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us. You'll be doing us a big favor if you'd also be kind enough to leave us a rating. We'd really appreciate that. Don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of Historyhit's podcasts ad free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe@historyhit.com subscribe.
- [65:12]
Shopify Advertiser
When you think of skyrocketing brands like Aloe Allbirds or Skims, it's easy to credit their success to great products, sleek branding and brilliant marketing. But here's the overlooked secret. The real magic lies in the engine behind the scenes, the business powering their business. For millions of brands, that engine is Shopify, making selling seamless for them and shopping effortless for us. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Alo Yoga uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.comretail all lowercase go to shopify.comretail to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.comretail.