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- [00:00]
Tristan
Ever wondered why the Romans were defeated in the Teutoburg Forest? What secrets lie buried in prehistoric Ireland? Or what made Alexander truly great? With a subscription to History Hit, you can explore our ancient past alongside the world's leading historians and archaeologists. You'll also unlock hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a brand new release every single week covering everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com subscribe
- [00:33]
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- [01:06]
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- [01:37]
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- [02:23]
Tristan
I met a traveler from an antique land who said Two vast and trunkless legs of stone sand in the desert near them on the sand half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown and wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command tell that its sculptor well those passions reed which yet survive Stamped on these lifeless things the hand that mocked them and the heart that fed. And on the pedestal these words appear. My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings look on my works, ye mighty, and despair no thing beside remains. Round the decay of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare, the lone and level sands stretch far away. That was the poem Ozymandias, published by the English poet hersey Shelley in 1818. It was inspired by the impending arrival in Lond of a colossal ancient Egyptian statue, the head of a pharaoh who had lived 3,000 years earlier and whose fascinating story was only then just being rediscovered. The Greeks called this figure Ozymandias, but we know him today by his actual name, Ramesses. Pharaoh Ramesses ii. Ramesses the Great. In last week's episode, we explored how Ramesses dynasty the Ramessids came to rule Egypt after a period of turmoil and decline. How first Ramesses granddad and then his father Seti I set about consolidating their power, paving the way for young Ramesses to inherit an Egypt ready to show its might once more. We ended by looking into Ramesses earliest years on the throne, epitomised by his famous clash against the Hittites and at the battle of Kadesh, a battle that he would go on to immortalize in great water reliefs across his kingdom. Now we're continuing the story. What do we know about the rest of his reign? How did he want to be remembered? We'll also cover what happened after this titan's death, how his successors soon faced new troubles, including from the sea peoples. This is the continued story of the Ramessid dynasty with our guest, Dr. Campbell Price. Campbell, welcome back to the show.
- [04:55]
Dr. Campbell Price
Hello, Tristan. Hello again.
- [04:56]
Tristan
It feels like a long time. It hasn't been.
- [04:58]
Dr. Campbell Price
It has.
- [05:00]
Tristan
We did of course, last time we chatted about the rise of Ramesses and looking at his background and how his granddad and his dad consolidate the position and then he rises to the forest and Kadesh, the bastard of Kadesh, five years in, it's almost a humiliation for him. But he's able to transform it, you know, as a base for then him becoming in our eyes at least later on, one of the most well known, arguably successful pharaohs of all.
- [05:27]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah, I think we've covered the prelude to greatness, you know, being on the shoulders of giants. Because I think Ramesses II owes a lot to his father and to his grandfather. But Kadesh is undoubtedly a turning point. Cause as you said, he's going back and trying to win some grudge matches. Doesn't succeed in real terms, doesn't succeed with an outright victory, but is able to spin the story. And again, I'm very skeptical of using a modern term like propaganda. So when you see the walls of temples where Ramesses II is talking about Kadesh, the fact that he writes that, not he himself, but he commissions that to be carved on a temple wall makes it so. It seems strange to a modern point of view, but that is in some ways maybe anticipating a victory that he thinks maybe he will have in actuality in the future, but that doesn't really matter. The gods know the truth, and he's carved it on the wall of the God's house. So by writing anything in hieroglyphs which are known as the words of the gods, you make it so.
- [06:45]
Tristan
Oh, okay. So it wasn't as if he thought he was deceiving the gods by spinning it.
- [06:50]
Dr. Campbell Price
No, I don't think you can deceive a God.
- [06:52]
Tristan
Right.
- [06:53]
Dr. Campbell Price
Because a God's omniscient.
- [06:55]
Tristan
And so in his eyes, he's rewriting history and making that truth. He's Kadesh to be more of a. A success than it really was.
- [07:02]
Dr. Campbell Price
And I think he genuinely believed it. You know, he believed that. Yeah. As you said before, he snatched a victory from the jaws of real defeat.
- [07:12]
Tristan
Well, he snatched a draw from the jaws of an absolute, but he's catastrophe
- [07:16]
Dr. Campbell Price
in his own head. That draw is something to be proud of. So I think that sets in motion a series of revisitations of the theme of victory over these vassal states in the Levant. So he goes back because, remember, his reign is 66 years when he's young and, you know, he's got the fire in him. He's going to go back several times, as we know he does.
- [07:44]
Tristan
I love this idea that Rama sees that over time. He just keeps telling himself that it's actually really good for him, and then he ultimately leads himself to believe it.
- [07:50]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah, now's the time.
- [07:52]
Tristan
But of course. So you have that pivotal moment of Kadesh early on in his reign as a key moment in his expansionism, or attempted expansionism. External conflicts. He returns. He does more external fighting, more wars abroad following that.
- [08:09]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes. So he keeps going back to those vassal states into what is now modern Syria. So that's where Kadesh is. And there are clearly. Yeah, he's fighting against the Hittites and there are various changes in leadership. So there does come a point in the 20s, regnal years, 20 and up, where maybe he's a little bit older and maybe he's thinking, I don't want to keep going back. And that is when you get a more decisive treaty and you get a sense that other states in the ancient Levant are more used to compromise. Whereas the Egyptians want all or nothing. Maybe that's just the nature of what's recorded, or maybe that's actually the, the social reality, the political reality in other parts of the world. But in Egypt they accept a peace treaty which is sealed by a marriage, a diplomatic marriage. And this is fascinating because we do have an insight into the exchanges between the royal courts. And so you have Ramses ii, who is a very wealthy individual who's commissioning all these temples and statues and is really, you know, is one of the great rulers of the ancient world pleading with, not pleading, but kind of pleading poverty and saying he wants the dowry of the incoming bride to be more than what is being offered. And so it seems that the bride's mother, the queen mother essentially is pushing the hard bargaining. So we shouldn't just imagine these conflicts are played out in the battlefield. Yes, they are. And there are repeated attempts to secure Kadesh, but latterly, maybe when the fight, the fire leaves Ramesses, but he is more content to seal things with a diplomatic marriage. And that is a one sided thing because the king of Egypt would never give a daughter of his own. An Egyptian princess is never sent to a non Egyptian court. But it is acceptable for a non Egyptian princess with a hefty dowry to come to Egypt and that is considered a victory.
- [10:31]
Tristan
But that is interesting, the fact that that's maybe some 15 years after the battle of Kadesh. So there was still a long period of time when Ramses is going back up to Syria, the area around Kadesh again and again to try and get that elusive total victory over the Hittites, that all or nothing feeling, that all or nothing idea. But ultimately as he gets a bit older, maybe he's a bit tired of going up to Kadesh again and again. He ultimately decides to get some sort of compromise. And the Hittite's just like, yeah, we kind of want to compromise too now.
- [11:00]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah, let's just call it a drawing. We'll be mutually beneficial. I think what actually happens in terms of on the ground, you know, we're talking about relatively small areas of land. There must be a kind of. The Egyptians think they secure some assurance of loyalty and then they leave and then sides are switched and it's like this Punch and Judy show. And then eventually as you say, yeah, when Ramesses is a bit older, he's content to have the peace treaty because
- [11:33]
Tristan
is it almost like when you think of it on the larger scale of things, if the Egyptians lose Kadesh to the Hittites, it's not the End of the world. It's hundreds of miles away from Egypt and the hearts of ancient Egypt. But because Kadesh has been in the control of Egyptians back in the 18th Dynasty, whatever its symbolic importance, almost like, dare I say, like Stalingrad was for the USSR in World War II, not one step back, that symbol. Do you think that's part of the reason that might have driven Ramesses to keep going back?
- [12:01]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes, I think there is some of that internal motivation. And again, practically speaking, you know, if you walk into Karnak and you can read hieroglyphic inscriptions, you know, Ramesses II would be reminded of Thutmose iii. It would be there.
- [12:16]
Tristan
He's the zenith of the preceding 18th dynasty.
- [12:18]
Dr. Campbell Price
And he is, you know, he is the. Has set the bar for expansionism, of pushing to its limit that area of influence, as we were saying before, not necessarily an empire, but an area of real influence and a buffer zone against these bigger, nastier powers that in any case are some distance away. But on that point, actually about the whole reign of Ramses ii, there is a practical element to this in that in the reign of Thutmose iii, he was setting off from the capital city at Memphis, which is essentially modern Cairo. But with the reign of Ramesses ii, maybe a little before then, there is a shift, a strategic shift to move this incredible royal city. And if we define the capital city as the place the king spends most time in the principal palace, that is Paramsses, okay, so that is on the northeast edge of the Nile Delta. So strategically it is closest to launch an expedition into the Levant. It is also provided. I know I have friends who've excavated that site. It's provided with huge stables to get the horses and to have your in infantry barracked there. So you have a kind of a sense of a standing army. And we know from monumental sources, tied interestingly closely to the cult of Ramesses II as a God. So at the same time as the military preparation is being ramped up, so is the idea of Ramses being a God. So you're fighting for a God, not just the king. There is lots of evidence of the worship of statues of Ramesses ii, and all the worshipers are members of the military. So you really get that sense of, okay, there is ambition, maybe anxiety is another word, that you have this city, which is essentially an island that you couldn't attack. If there was an attack from the Hittites, you would see the people invading force some distance away. And also you have a kind of standing army waiting. So there is also this feeling of that Paramsis being like a border frontier town. So if the worst were to happen, Egypt would be prepared. So these skirmishes and the who owns who, or who is loyal to who may seem trivial, but the bigger political, geopolitical, military question is, with these rising empires, if something really catastrophic happens and God forbid there was an invasion, because this has happened to the Egyptians before and will happen many times in the future, the Egyptians need to be prepared. So on the eastern front, you have. I mean, Paramis is the one. But we know Ramesses is also building on the western front towards Libya. And so the westernmost, like 200 km west of the westernmost branch of the Nile at the time, is a site called Zawayat, um, Al Rakam. It's a site I've worked at myself as a student. Very impressive. We know about the garrison commander.
- [15:41]
Tristan
Was that Professor Stephen Snapes?
- [15:43]
Dr. Campbell Price
Indeed.
- [15:43]
Tristan
That's his excavation, yes.
- [15:44]
Dr. Campbell Price
Stephen Snape's Liverpool University excavations uncovered really interesting evidence of kind of local interactions, like the local population interacting with the fortress, but also prepared in case there was a major influx of Libyans from the west. And they were right to be suspicious because that's what happens in the reign of Ramses Son, which is so interesting,
- [16:11]
Tristan
that kind of foresight there. But of course, you've also got Egypt at that time.
- [16:15]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes.
- [16:16]
Tristan
We won't say an empire, but the control of Egypt does go all the way quite far up river than I'll into Sudan.
- [16:22]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah, deep into Sudanubia.
- [16:23]
Tristan
And you got Buhen fortress or place like that. You've got big fortresses in the south as well.
- [16:27]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah. I mean, these have been established probably since the Old Kingdom, but big fortresses built in the Middle Kingdom. And then we know, yeah, Thutmose I, Tummuz iii, really pushed the boundaries there. So I think it's fair to say there's more general success in beating up Nubians than there is controlling these people in the Levant. But it doesn't really matter to the ancient Egyptians. Anyone who's not an ancient Egyptian is to be pitied or despised and to be crushed under the pharaoh's sandals. So that is how they are depicted in art and that is how they are presented to the gods, and that is how the universe works.
- [17:08]
Tristan
Pyramuses position. And we mentioned Paramuses in our previous chat, didn't see how its founding seems to be actually associated with Ramesses II's grandfather, the first Ramesses.
- [17:18]
Dr. Campbell Price
The name. Yeah, the house of Ramesses. It's a good. It's an apt metaphor for not just the physical residence of a whole line of kings, but also for the house, the actual dynasty that continues, of course, for many generations.
- [17:34]
Tristan
And his capital in that position, looking towards Syria and the Levant, shows that that really seems to be his top foreign policy priority for the first couple of decades of his reign. Until he gets the peace treaty.
- [17:46]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes. And the peace treaty maybe marks something of a pause, and then he really focuses on building. But he's been building for some time. It's interesting, with Ramesses ii, unlike his father set to the first. I mean, there is a. Yeah, subjectively speaking, there is a. Objectively, perhaps speaking as well, there is a decline in the quality of artwork. Although Ramesside art, the art of Ramesses ii, still is very beautiful. It's maybe not quite as finely executed as that of his father, but you get the impression as the rain progresses, even though he's got a lot of building under his belt, he wants to bash it out quicker and more of it. And the quality even seems to decline further. It's just more, more, more, more, more. Keep these people occupied.
- [18:36]
Tristan
Well, we're gonna explore all of that in these various different monumental works, but quickly, on the peace treaty itself.
- [18:41]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes.
- [18:42]
Tristan
So one of the oldest known peace treaties in the world.
- [18:45]
Dr. Campbell Price
Again, the oldest, Possibly. The oldest.
- [18:47]
Tristan
Possibly.
- [18:48]
Dr. Campbell Price
Challenge me. I don't know of a good example to challenge it.
- [18:52]
Tristan
Possibly the oldest peace treaty we know of in the world. Do we have the wording surviving?
- [18:58]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes. This is tailing, because the Egyptians are proud of this. And it's not a peace treaty, is not a type of text, it's not a genre of monumental inscription that was common to the ancient Egyptians to make a treaty with other people. But in this case, it is sealed by diplomatic marriage. There's a lot of toing and froing about the content of dowries, but the princess comes in and becomes a wife of Ramses ii. And it's interesting that this must have quite a cultural impact, the coming of this lady into the royal court. So there is the first marriage, and then there is a second marriage a few years later. But even, gosh, a thousand years later, into the Ptolemaic period, there is a fascinating document, it's now in Paris called the Bentresh Stele, which describes the sending of a statue of an Egyptian God into the Levant to cure a relative of one of the vassal kingdoms. And that seems to be a genuine reflection on the great esteem with which Egyptian doctors are viewed. So it's not just a military thing of I'll beat you up or we'll have a peace treaty. If there's a peace treaty, the Egyptian pharaoh might send one of his effective physicians or might send a healing statue of a God. And so there are real to ancient people, real palpable benefits which we might think of as being quite superstitious.
- [20:36]
Tristan
But are they also signals of the new friendship between the powers, as it were? You know, this peaceful almost like with the, you know, post Cold War with it, you know, you've got the cosmonauts and the astronauts together on the space station.
- [20:47]
Dr. Campbell Price
They're like, yeah, that's a nice analogy. Yeah. So the courts are, yeah, clearly in communication and they do send gifts between the two of them. And that's some kind of assurance. And indeed this peace treaty text makes clear that they will, you know, mutually assure the succession of each kingdom and help against a third party attacker. So there is that sense of what we would recognize as a modern treaty.
- [21:26]
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- [22:00]
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- [22:32]
Dr. Campbell Price
Land a Viking longship on island shores. Scramble over the dunes of ancient Egyptian and avoid the poisoner's cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics
- [22:55]
Tristan
and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer.
- [22:59]
Dr. Campbell Price
Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and and great stories, listen to echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week.
- [23:30]
Tristan
Because you've also got the Hittite version of it surviving that they've discovered in Hattusa.
- [23:34]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes, yeah, yeah, that's right.
- [23:35]
Tristan
And then I think they got a copy in the. The UN or something like that. So kind of the oldest peace treaties in the world. So, yeah, it's. It's all very interesting how you know that the symbolic importance of it, the legacy of it down to the day is physical evidence of diplomacy more than a thousand years ago.
- [23:51]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah, impressive.
- [23:53]
Tristan
But let's move on from that. So let's go on to his monumental building work in Egypt itself, which he's been doing already, you know, following in the footsteps of his dad, completing stuff. But once this peace treaty is signed, do we get a sense that almost he flicks the switch to focus almost completely on the great building works in Egypt?
- [24:13]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah, I mean, it must be something also to do with physicality. So approaching his 30th year on the throne, so he maybe is approaching 50 by this point, years of age, he's maybe less inclined to be going out into battle. He can still send sons and he's got plenty of sons, up to 50 sons. But we'll also come back to the sons. But in the ancient world, if you have been on the throne for 30 years, you are a pretty big deal. But that also marks, for the ancient Egyptians, a very significant milestone, the so called Heb Sed, which is what we might call a jubilee today, but it's a kind of an affirmation of the king's power and a confirmation or a conferral of divinity. So the king is always a bit divine. But Ramesses II really goes further and it does seem to be inspired by this point in time where there's a de emphasizing of military activity and a greater emphasis on religious iconography and belief. So he really says, Ramses II says he's not just part divine, he is a full God, shoulder to shoulder with other gods. And he is represented on temple walls in statues and has his own extraordinary statue cult where people, including the military personnel at Paramsis, are using images, huge colossal statue images of the king, as means of answering their prayers.
- [25:51]
Tristan
So shall we do a case study of this? Shall we focus on Abu Simbel?
- [25:55]
Dr. Campbell Price
Why not?
- [25:56]
Tristan
That's a great monumental example of this. So give us a flavour. What first and foremost is Abu Simbel and where are we talking about?
- [26:04]
Dr. Campbell Price
So we're talking about the southernmost point really in the modern borders of Egypt on the shores of what is now Lake Nasser. So into ancient Nubia, so many miles south of the traditional Egyptian border. Aswan.
- [26:18]
Tristan
Aswan, yeah.
- [26:19]
Dr. Campbell Price
So a reductive reading is to say that this is a way of intimidating the Nubians. Look, there are these colossal statues, four colossal statues of the king on one temple. There's a great rock cut temple with these four striking images, seated images of the king. But there's another temple dedicated to his wife, Queen Nefertari, the chief queen, whom he seems to have loved very much. And she is equated with the goddess Hathor. So they are saying his and hers. The king is a God, the queen is a God. People should come and worship us because we are deserving of worship, like full gods. And this is really an important point, it's something I've written about that we've got to understand. These avatars, these divine avatars of Ramesses, there's a whole series of them. They all have different names, they can be materialized through statues and you can worship the statue and hopefully get your prayers answered. But in the innermost part of that Abu, simple great temple, the holy of holies, there is seat of the great gods, Ptah, Rehorakti, Amun. And sat, quite literally shoulder to shoulder with him is Ramesses ii. And it's really an emphatic point of I am a full God and I have this equivalence to the great gods. Now, interesting to me is in the decorative scheme, as the interior of this structure was being completed, the decoration, which is probably the twenties of the reign. Right. So we're getting.
- [28:05]
Tristan
He's already seeing himself as divine before he reaches that big jubilee milestone.
- [28:09]
Dr. Campbell Price
Interesting. And it seems to be a developing idea because there are clear scenes. I know you've been to the temple and it's worth looking out on the walls. If you go, there are clearly scenes where there were gods. Amun, the great God of Karnak, Thebes, his wife, the goddess Mut. And the figure of Ramesses has been inserted as an afterthought. So it's not part of the original scheme. So someone has had the thought, actually, we'll put the king here. So that, I mean, it's rare. You can say, you can see a developing theology, but that is something where the idea of Ramesses of God has not been originally planned, but developed with the building.
- [28:56]
Tristan
Because you also see in that first room as you enter Abu Simbel, don't you? You see, it's him in his chariots. He's very much him. Also as a Military figure as well. So it's not just promoting him as divine, you know, that is a key part of it. And there's colossal statues of him seated. If he stood up, he would tower above the temple itself. But it's still harkening back to him also as a successful military figure. And, you know, the head of this royal family as well, I guess.
- [29:22]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah, he must be proud of the military, albeit we might consider it a draw now. But it's kind of a challenge. And we know other earlier kings did this, a challenge to his successors to maintain his boundaries and maintain his sphere of influence, if we want to call it that. And because he lived so long, we know this in various instances throughout history, if you spend a long time on the throne, it is more difficult for the eventual successor, especially if, like Rama Sundays, you have 50 sons, and sure, many of them died. He was eventually succeeded by his 13th son, me. But there are other sons. I mean, the fourth son is especially interesting to me. Prince Chaim Waset. He is credited by some with being the first Egyptologist, because he is the one who goes around labeling the pyramids. So he's the high priest of the God Ptah at Memphis, so near modern Cairo. And in that role, he is very aware of the sacred landscape, which is, you know, littered with massive pyramids. But to a son of Ramesses ii, to go out into the desert and to see, not that far into the desert, still visible from the floodplain, but to see a monument that's so vast, so impressive, so pristine, without any hieroglyphs on it, telling you who the king is, this seems crazy. The son of a megalomaniac like Ramses ii. So he goes along and inscribes very deep, elaborate inscriptions, what have been called by one great Scottish Egyptologist, Kenneth Kitchen, as the largest museum label in the world, telling future generations, this is the Pyramid of Khufu. This is the Pyramid of Unasked. This is the Pyramid of Djoser. And I, Prince Kalamwasa, have restored the name of this king because it was not found on the surface of his monument. And I'm the son of the great king Ramses ii. So Ramses II gets his name put on all of these ancient monuments.
- [31:40]
Tristan
So it's not just in the hypostyle hall at Karnak, it's not just the great Templar Abu symbol, it's also on the pyramids. On the pyramids that you have Ramesses name as well.
- [31:50]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes.
- [31:51]
Tristan
And do we get a sense with, you know, his many children, his Many sons. Do we have any sense if he had any favourites?
- [31:58]
Dr. Campbell Price
Oh, I would.
- [31:59]
Tristan
Oh.
- [32:00]
Dr. Campbell Price
Difficult to say based on the evidence as it survives. Prince Ka Amwasa is interesting because he helps organize his father's Heb sed Jubilee festivals and so he is often shown in association with the father. So in a cynical way, it's a great way for Karen Waset, who maybe thinks his dad's going to live forever and best to make the most of his lot. Now it's not a million miles away from the Prince of Wales, thinking, as Charles, Prince of Wales, did, I've got to make the most of this because it's what I'm going to be doing for most of my life. But whether Kaim Wassett expected to be the next pharaoh is difficult to say. As I said, I mean, obviously if someone dies, that removes them from the line of succession, but I think there had to be very careful. Yeah, careful planning for a smooth transition of power. And I think the best evidence that Ramesses liked one of his sons was that he would designate him as the heir. So eventually the heir, Meribtah, must have been favored.
- [33:13]
Tristan
Absolutely. Because go back to Abyssimal once again, just because having been there recently, when you get close to the colossal statues of Ramesses, you also see smaller depictions of a few of his wives and a few of his children believed as well. So, yeah, the ones that I know you're not supposed to have favorites, but it's almost like he did, there are a few that he picked to place alongside him on this temple to himself.
- [33:35]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah, I think those must be, as far as the we know, the ones that are inscribed or identified by inscription, they are the more senior ones.
- [33:43]
Tristan
Interesting.
- [33:45]
Dr. Campbell Price
And you wonder, because he lived so long, whether some of those had already died. So this was a way of commemorating them. He had a special tomb, a vast tomb built in the Valley of the kings, Kv 5 for the children, for the sons. But then it's also a thing about the psychology of Ramses ii, because he lives a long life. He's on the throne 66 years. So assuming he comes to the throne, say, at 24, he's 90 by the time he dies, which is very good going for an ancient ruler, albeit he had the best doctors and lived a life of great luxury. But you could imagine, as you see your children die, your wives die, your grandchildren die, maybe you, Ramses thought, I am a God, I'm not going to die.
- [34:40]
Tristan
But I must also ask, obviously, that thing, the beating heart of Egypt is the Nile. And every year you have the annual flood, don't you, which determines the great, well, how successful the agricultural yield will be the next year. And if the flooding is too low, then it could lead to famine. Do we get a sense, I mean, is there any surviving archaeology that hints that there were times in Ramesses reigning where they had a lot of trouble, oh, good. And stuff like that, or was it. Was he just in a very good century where everything worked his way in that regard?
- [35:14]
Dr. Campbell Price
Ah, good question. I mean, we do have Nile flood heights, levels from different kings reigns, but I don't think anything was particularly catastrophically low or high. Of course, if it's too much, it's a bad thing as well. It spells bad news. But I think, looked at another way, you're right, it could be that he was just doing well, whereas later kings like Ramesses iii, we know, just happened to get a bad run and ruled under some more economically straitened times.
- [35:52]
Tristan
Well, I could ask so many more questions about Ramesses, but I know we've
- [35:54]
Dr. Campbell Price
got to move on.
- [35:55]
Tristan
So let's go to nearing the end of Ramesses reign. So he's got all those children, he's outlived many of them by this time as well. Many of his wives are dead as
- [36:04]
Dr. Campbell Price
well by this time.
- [36:05]
Tristan
Nefertari is certainly out of the picture.
- [36:07]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah, Nefertari, to whom he dedicated that smaller temple at Abu Simbel, seems to be the first senior wife, that's clear. But then there is a second senior wife, Iset Nofret, who's the mother of Kaimwasa and also of Merabtah. Right, so she's important. Probably buried somewhere at Saqqara. And yes, eventually her son, the 13th son, Merinpatar, becomes king.
- [36:32]
Tristan
And he also. Sorry, I must also mention the Ramesseum, because we haven't really touched on this, have we? And this is. It's named after himself. But what is it?
- [36:39]
Dr. Campbell Price
Well, we nowadays call it the Ramesseum. That's how it's called. If you visit Egypt today for. Yeah, more recent times it was called the Memnonium because it was associated with Memnon, which is actually a name given to the Colossi.
- [36:56]
Tristan
The Colossi of Memnon. Right.
- [36:57]
Dr. Campbell Price
Which are associated with Amenhotep iii, but in ancient times it was known as a mansion of millions of years. So this is a little hobby horse of mine. I don't like referring to these as funerary temples or mortuary temples because this overemphasizes death. It's not about death. It's not about, you know, mourning the king, it's about the king becoming united with the gods. And so Ramesses II temple really is vast and it's one of the first, if not the first, that has the outer pylon gateway made of stone. Previous temples had them made of mud brick and they simply haven't survived. But now I know that there's colleagues in Egypt are working on the restoration of the, the pylon. So it should be more visible and more visible in future. It really was an impressive structure and it was the direct inspiration for one of Ramses successors, Ramses iii. So basically his temple, what's now called Medinet Habu, is not a carbon copy, but an homage to the mansion of millions of years of Ramses ii, called the Ramesseum today.
- [38:08]
Tristan
And was that where Ramesses wanted to be buried?
- [38:11]
Dr. Campbell Price
No, this is an important point. It's willfully, consciously at a distance from
- [38:19]
Tristan
the tomb and that's from the Valley of the Kings.
- [38:21]
Dr. Campbell Price
The Valley of the Kings is the cemetery. That's where the royal sepulchers are, which is, you know, over a kilometer away. But the temple is for people to visit, to leave offerings and to celebrate the eternal cult of the king, the union of the king with various gods.
- [38:38]
Tristan
And that will be where many, many, many centuries later, Belzoni will find that colossal statue, the head of which is in the British Museum today.
- [38:45]
Dr. Campbell Price
Indeed, the younger Memnon. Yes, that's inspired a piece of poetry.
- [38:50]
Tristan
We'll not get to you in a bit later. Yes, absolutely. Well, okay. 66 years on, do you know much about the end of Ramesses reign and the state of Egypt at that time? Is there almost a decline in his power or is Egypt declining as he's getting older? Do we know anything about.
- [39:08]
Dr. Campbell Price
It's difficult to have a reliable index of, you know, GDP for ancient Egyptians or the equivalent, but suffice it to say, I mean, he would have been the only king almost everyone had ever known. So I think, you know, when he did eventually shuffle off this mortal coil, there would have been a lot of head scratching about how to actually do a pharaoh's funeral. But you can tell that there are problems set up in store for his eventual successor, Merim Bhata. And he seems to have made a pretty good go. We have a kind of uptick then in evidence of foreign interactions and foreign policy because he has to deal with active, yeah, pressing issues from the west, from the Libyans, issues in the, in the north, in the Levant and then back down south, the Nubians.
- [40:12]
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- [41:16]
Tristan
So, Mehran Ptar, let's focus on these threats that he faces because his is not a name anywhere as recognizable as Ramesses ii. So talk as we should shine a light on this figure like we did with Ramesses I and Seti Mehranptah what do we know about the struggles that he faces?
- [41:34]
Dr. Campbell Price
Well, we've got quite a bit of historical information. Almost like he makes an effort to put his stamp on history. And again, older king coming to the throne. He maybe is in his 60s, if not 70 when he comes to the throne. So there's a sort of a Charles III thing.
- [41:55]
Tristan
There's the 13th son or so of Ramses 70.
- [41:59]
Dr. Campbell Price
Wow. And maybe. Well, exactly. He wasn't preparing to be the king throughout his whole life. He had older brothers. He clearly wants to record his own active engagement with these foreign powers. So there are sources like the so called Israel stele. So this is a reused monument of an earlier king of Amenhotep iii, where the back of it is inscribed with various, you know, campaigns. And there are lots of these things actually, relatively speaking. And it's the first historic mention of the people of Israel.
- [42:37]
Tristan
Israel as a people, isn't it?
- [42:39]
Dr. Campbell Price
As a people. So historically very, very interesting. But also Merinputah goes around again, you get the sense maybe reading a little bit between the lines that he thinks he doesn't have long because he's quite old already. And he does rule for almost 10 years. So you know, he does okay. And he puts his name on wherever there is an empty space because he doesn't have the time to commission new monuments. He just Waps his name on whether it's statues of older kings, whether it's columns. We have an example in Manchester Museum where it's an older Middle Kingdom column of granite. Ramesses II has his name and image worshipping a God on it. And then Merin Ptah has had his name added as well. So there's this sense of, you know. Yeah, fighting against time. But I think the real success of Merrimapatan, it's a shame he's not better known, is that he actively manages to campaign quite actively against powers from the east and the west and the south. With time, the dynasty, there's lots of internal struggles for a few generations, but then by the time of Ramesses iii, you get active incursions, you get the Sea Peoples, this kind of motley crew of people from the Mediterranean, you get the Libyans actively coming over and being quite threatening. And all of this seems to be held at bay by Meribtah. So he maybe gets undeservedly short shrift because he's overshadowed by his father. And people often say Ramesses III is the last great king of ancient Egypt. But Merim Ptah must have had a pretty, you know, involved training in his youth. So maybe he's in his 60s, not actively going out fighting, but he's able to, I guess, reflect on his experience of being the son of Ramses II and strategize to head off problems which become serious problems in the decades after his reign.
- [44:48]
Tristan
So those military problems that he faces during his only a decade or so on the throne, it's quite interesting how you have Ramses II ruling for so long, then almost as soon as he dies, you have Libyans, the emergence of the Sea Peoples, you have the Nubians revolting as well, and Meriemptah almost is one. He has to deal with it. Do we think there's potentially a feeling that enemies were circling. They see the death of a pharaoh, they see Merim Ptah come to the throne quite elderly. They feel that there's an opportunity here.
- [45:18]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes, absolutely. And I think there was always that looking for an opportunity when religiously, theologically, it's a very vulnerable time for the country between the change of monarch. I mean, there is something without forcing modern parallels on it, there was something about the death of Elizabeth II where people were really kind of shaken by it, and you feel like it's a kind of a cosmic. Whether you're a great monarchist or not, there is some kind of cosmic shift. And for the ancient Egyptians, that really was a cosmic shift. So you would take the chance. If you're going to make trouble for the Egyptian state, you will wait until. Yeah, one of these kind of transitional moments.
- [46:02]
Tristan
Well, this almost feels a bit like Edward VII after Queen Victoria or something like that.
- [46:06]
Dr. Campbell Price
You know, it's quite old, isn't it?
- [46:07]
Tristan
But he doesn't reign too long. But you don't associate the complete crumbling of a dynasty I guess with him following. I mean I'm not an expert on
- [46:16]
Dr. Campbell Price
that, but that's what I'm gonna say. No, I think the parallel is justified. Yeah.
- [46:21]
Tristan
And so you get Merimpatar for a decade or so and he is successful in beating off the sea peoples. The first emergence of the sea peoples on the sea.
- [46:29]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes. I mean we don't have many records from his own mansion of millions of years cause it's not terribly well preserved. But there are other bits of historical accounts that really make it clear that the Sea peoples and other non Egyptian threats are serious. And so maybe we know in the case of Zawiata, Mohammed, the north coast, the Mediterranean coast, that's the fort, isn't it? That's the fortress in the northwest that you know, things are happening, you know, there is a tangible threat from the people to the west. And eventually, you know, with time, a few couple of hundred years later there will be Libyan kings of Egypt. So it will go so far as to be, you know, a Libyan pharaoh on the throne. But Merip Tah is the accepted ruler. But of course there are all these other princelings about and that creates rivals for the throne for sure.
- [47:31]
Tristan
So Merenbtah dies after some 10 years or so. What happens following that? Does it all go to pieces quite quickly after he dies? Must be around 80 years old by that time.
- [47:40]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah, I think there is a sense in which things do fall apart, historically speaking pretty quickly. The 19th dynasty only has a couple of decades left to go. There are a series of short lived kings. This is the end of the 19th Dynasty. And then you get to young king called Siptah who has a female regent called Tawazret. And she is really the end, she is a female pharaoh, end of the line. She rules quite effectively it seems for a few years. But then there's this shadowy figure, this high ranking courtier called Bai, who is like a 19th dynasty equivalent of the much loved, in my case character of Senenmut, the right hand man to hatshepsut in Dynasty 18. So Tawazret is ruling the last of the house of Ramses. And then you get this new guy, a Guy called Seth Nacht. And he comes on the scene and usurps Tawazret's tomb in the Valley of the Kings, still one of the most interesting tombs in the Valley of the Kings at Thebes. So the dynasty shifts then, and there's new blood comes in. And we begin Dynasty 20 with Seth Nakht and then his successor, Ramses III.
- [49:02]
Tristan
Do you think Taw Azret's reign as pharaoh was always destined to end that way? Because just how they viewed a woman as a pharaoh.
- [49:10]
Dr. Campbell Price
This is tricky. This is really tricky. And it's something I've thought about a bit. She does get mentioned in an official list of kings, a document that you're in canon. So it's acceptable that there is this woman, in a sense, and so she rules fairly successfully for a few years. She builds things and, you know, there are foundation deposits attesting to her building works, but she only rules for a handful of years and then is succeeded by someone called Seth Nacht. And he is a new guy. So that is the time of the 19th Dynasty is up by that point. And it's a new bloodline. But the fact that there is this character, this Chancellor Bai, who. And it's a very rare case, we have evidence of him being put to death. So there is a mention of execution of this guy, which backstabbing must have gone on. We know about it with the Ptolemies, but it must have gone on throughout Pharaonic history. But this is a very rare insight into a very. What must have been not uncommon, but it's unusual, it's recorded. And then she is succeeded by this man, this new guy, Set Nakht, and he has a successor who's Ramses iii. So all of this happens from the death of Mehramtah to the succession of Ramses III in a few decades.
- [50:36]
Tristan
So within, yes, like three or four decades after the death of Ramses ii. Yeah, his dynasty has come crashing down.
- [50:45]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He might have planned. And indeed his father and grandfather planned and initiated this great sweep of history and thought their successors would keep going into the future. But in real terms, in terms of blood relations, pure blood relations, the dynasty fizzles out and dies when Seth Nachton, eventually, Ramses III come along. They offer the appearance of stability, which is fine. But the economic and social changes within Egypt are real, as are the foreign threats, the non Egyptian, the outsider threats, as we were discussing before, the geopolitics, even between Seti I and Ramses ii, which isn't a long time, there's lots of shifts there. Fast forward to the reign of Ramses iii and I mean, he claims various victories in his well recorded accounts in his mansion of millions of years. But this really heralds the end of the new kingdom and the rise of other powers in the ancient world.
- [51:54]
Tristan
It is too interesting, Campbell, how, you know, it's still a long time, I guess in the grand scheme of things, between Ramses II and then Ramses iii, which you say is another of those kind of big name figures. The strength of Ramses II is it more just a personal image that, you know, dies out soon after his death. And actually he doesn't really leave anything that can endure for a long, long time. He doesn't build anything with an idea that he plans for it to endure for hundreds of years, is it very much. It's just an image of his strength during his reign and then that just disappears and the, the solidity that he thought he'd created evaporates rather than him actually wanting to create something stable for, well, maybe in his eyes, millennia.
- [52:41]
Dr. Campbell Price
I think with the legacy of Ramses II in part. I mean, his own reign is a lot about spin and he focuses a lot on his own personality and divine personality when he's alive. This is something again to emphasize the cult of the king through these statues. These cult colossi, as I term them only are really supercharged with divine power during his lifetime. They kind of fade into the background after his death. So to be fair to the successes of Ramses ii, they have to deal with other challenges which Ramses II didn't have to deal with. There's another practical thing though. The great city that he embellished, Paramsses, suffers because the branch of the Nile its own silts up. So it's not functional.
- [53:34]
Tristan
So it's unforeseen, you know, future events that kind of really hinder his legacy rather than him not actually paying attention to it.
- [53:41]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes, I think that's fair. To be fair to Ramesses ii, who must have been quite a dynamic guy to give him as fair due. I think, yeah, his successors had to deal with things which, yeah, totally unforeseen on his part.
- [53:58]
Tristan
It does beg the question, is Ramesses ii, is he really the great or is he just the absolute master of spin?
- [54:07]
Dr. Campbell Price
I mean, he's the greatest in the sense that he had most time to tell us he was great.
- [54:11]
Tristan
Yeah, he's the loudest ruler.
- [54:12]
Dr. Campbell Price
He's the loudest, yeah. I mean, if Hatshepsut had been a man and had ruled for 60 years, we would have no doubt about her, his greatness. And I mean, it's true, though we do have evidence of, you know, the cult of Ramses II persisting in places like Abydos. You know, there is evidence of the worship of Ramses II in certain places. And then his body, of course, survives. He's buried in the Valley of the Kings. The body is moved to the royal mummy cache in deir El Bakri, DB 320. And then when that's discovered officially in 1881, that starts a whole new weird afterlife for Ramesses II, where his body, it seems, is so well preserved, he's assumed to be the pharaoh of the Exodus.
- [55:07]
Tristan
So we do have the actual body of Ramesses.
- [55:08]
Dr. Campbell Price
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He goes a bit mouldy in the 1970s and is sent to Paris for defungal treatment. So having the face of this man. So it's not just the statues, of course, the statues don't look anything like he would have done when he was alive. And people have tried to extrapolate from his mummified body what he might have looked like. We'll never really know. Just to be clear, that's another hobby horse of mine. But having the body, and especially when it was unwrapped in the 1880s, was shocking and surprising and thrilling. So in popular culture, you know, there are. That's one of the most popular postcards you could buy in the late 1800s was the mummified face of Ramesses II. So he. He gains a totally unexpected popularity. You know, the COVID of an Iron Maiden album is inspired by Abu Simbel. You know, things like that. He speaks to. He speaks to modernity in our experience of tyrants and autocrats and dictators. Because I don't imagine Ramses II presided over a democracy. So there's something about his character we still are kind of seduced by. Even though he was probably pretty autocratic. He built so many statues, he had so many battles, he had so many children. You know, we can't help but have this grudging respect for him.
- [56:31]
Tristan
And his name is everywhere on so many of the great monuments, whether it's the pyramids or Karnak or Abu Simbel.
- [56:36]
Dr. Campbell Price
If there's one name to learn, one cartouche to learn, it's Ramesses ii. Usur, Matrah, Setepenra. If you learn those hieroglyphs, you will see them all over Egypt.
- [56:46]
Tristan
Well, that was the one. The first, if not the first, that Champollion figured out.
- [56:49]
Dr. Campbell Price
Indeed so, because it was so when he Went there. I think he was amazed just at how common it was.
- [56:56]
Tristan
Well, I'm glad you mentioned the 19th century, because I have a copy here of the famous Percy Shelley poem Ozymandias. And Ozymandias, he's a Greek rendering for the name Ramses, A poem that highlights the inevitable decline of rulers and their hubris. So I'll read it out now because I feel I must. I met a traveller from an antique land who said, two vast and trunkless legs of stone sand in the desert near them on the sand half sunk a shattered visage lies, Whose frown and wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command tell that its sculptor well those passions read which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things, the hand that mocked them and the heart that fed. And on the pedestal these words, my name is Ozymandias, King of Kings. Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair no thing beside remains Round the decay of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare, the lone and level sands stretch far away. Interesting, isn't it?
- [57:58]
Dr. Campbell Price
Very poetic.
- [57:59]
Tristan
Not one for poems and I've probably butchered the reading of that. I must admit I didn't do enough English literature growing up. But it's interesting how in Victorian times they have that idea of Ramesses, even back then.
- [58:10]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah. And I think what really inspired that poem was a kind of a frenzy surrounding the arrival in London of that colossal sculpture fragment you mentioned before, the so called Younger Memnon, which is now in the British Museum. So, yeah, in 1816 it was moved by Belzoni and eventually, a couple of years later, it arrived in London. And it wasn't an interest in Ramesses ii, it was just in the size of the statue. It's interesting, Shelley talks about Ramesses. Oh, well, Ozymandias, King of Kings. That is one of the names of the colossal statues that I said were worshipped. Ramesses, ruler of rulers Heka in Hekau. So there's this reverberation of this character, for he must have been an impressive character. Yes. He had the opportunity to build, to battle, to marry, to procreate over 66 years. But there's something about the brokenness of the monuments of him and other kings that does appeal as quite romantic. It's almost like proof, especially for Christian people, that these pagan kings were cut down to size by the true God.
- [59:21]
Tristan
This idea that no matter how powerful and brilliant he was in his prime, how quickly that legacy can shatter, you know, in the years following. And in the case of Ramesses and his successors, it shatters pretty quickly indeed. Campbell this has been absolutely fantastic. I mean, there's so much we could talk about with the. The real reign of Ramesses and Merimpatar as well. And what happens all the way down to Tawasret. But it's a fascinating time period. Is there anything else you'd like to mention about Ramses or how we should view this figure going forwards?
- [59:50]
Dr. Campbell Price
I think in some ways he gets a bad press because it's all wham, bam, thank you, Ram. But I think Ramesses, I mean, he does have a legacy in that he gives his name to so many others. So many others.
- [60:01]
Tristan
They're coming back to Ramesses II.
- [60:03]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes. And I think if you asked a king 500 years later who was the greatest pharaoh of ancient Egypt, it would be difficult for them to choose between Thutmose III and Ramses ii. So that's a.
- [60:17]
Tristan
How many Ramses are there in total?
- [60:19]
Dr. Campbell Price
So there were 11 called Ramses but later kings even than Ramses the 11th take the throne name Usurmatra. So there is clearly an homage going on there.
- [60:32]
Tristan
Campbell, always a pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the show.
- [60:36]
Dr. Campbell Price
Thank you for having me.
- [60:41]
Tristan
Well, there you go. There was Dr. Campbell Price continuing the story of the Ramessid Dynasty, the 19th Dynasty defined epitomized by the legendary Pharaoh Ramesses the Second, Ramesses the Great. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Thank you so much for listening. Now, if you enjoyed the episode, if you're enjoying the show, please make sure to follow the ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us and you will be doing us a big favor. If you'd be kind enough to leave us a rating as well, well, we'd really appreciate that. Finally, don't forget you can also sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week. Sign up@historyhit.com subscribe. That's all from me. I'll see you in the next episode.
- [61:33]
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