Loading summary
Transcript115 lines
- [00:00]
Narrator
Ever wondered why the Romans were defeated
- [00:02]
Host
in the Teutoburg Forest? What secrets lie buried in prehistoric Ireland?
- [00:07]
Narrator
Or what made Alexander truly great? With a subscription to History Hit, you
- [00:12]
Host
can explore our ancient past alongside the world's leading historians and archaeologists. You'll also unlock hundreds of hours of
- [00:19]
Narrator
original documentaries with a brand new release
- [00:22]
Host
every single week, covering everything from the ancient world to World War II.
- [00:27]
Narrator
Just visit historyhit.com subscribe@edward jones we believe
- [00:35]
Edward Jones Advertiser
rich is more than caring about the latest and greatest. It's also taking care of what gives your life meaning. That's why your dedicated financial advisor meets you where you are with personalized financial strategies that help protect what matters so you can preserve your progress while creating a path forward. The key to being rich is knowing what counts. Let's find your rich together. Edward Jones Member, SIPC Instacart makes grocery
- [01:04]
Instacart Advertiser
shopping easier and just because you're not doing the shopping yourself doesn't mean you don't care how it's done. With Instacart Shopper notes, you can get particular about what you want right in the app. Like rotisserie chicken that's extra crispy steak with marbling the Romans would have loved, and lettuce you'd actually pick yourself. Just leave a note for your shopper so that they can get it right for you without having to ask. That way you can get groceries just how you like. Download the Instacart app and shop today.
- [01:32]
Narrator
What's going on?
- [01:33]
Arsh Manning (Vuori Advertiser)
I'm Arsh Manning, biore athlete and college quarterback. Whether I'm running, training, traveling or just unwinding at home, I love doing it in my core shorts from Vuori. With a breathable box of brief liner, they're quick to dry, super versatile and stand up to even my most intense training sessions. Plus they come in three inseams and a ton of colors. Ready to try a pair? Go to vuori.com arch and get 20% off at checkout. I think you're going to love them as much as I do. That's v u-o r-I.com a r c-h and get 20% off your first order. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. Not only will you receive 20% off your first purchase, but enjoy free shipping on any US orders over $75 and free returns. Have a great day.
- [02:06]
Narrator
Marcus Tullius Cicero, the grand old orator of Rome, and In the year 63 BC he achieved his lifelong ambition, the consulship, Rome's highest elected office. But before the year was over, his career and perhaps his life hung by a thread. Rome was gripped by what became known as the Catiline Conspiracy, so called after its most prominent ringleader, Lucius Sergius Catiline. According to Cicero, it was an existential threat to the Republic, violence in the streets, unrest across Italy and an insurrection plot to overthrow the Roman state.
- [02:50]
Carl's Jr. Advertiser
State.
- [02:51]
Narrator
But was it really? Or did Cicero exaggerate the danger to cement his own legacy? Today I'm joined by renowned classicist Professor Catherine Edwards to sift through the facts and the fiction. Was this Cicero's finest hour? Did he save Rome and its famed republican institutions from the certain collapse? Or has Catiline been the subject of of one of history's most brutal posthumous hit jobs? This is the story of one of Rome's most famous political conspiracies.
- [03:38]
Host
Catherine, it is such a pleasure to have you on the show.
- [03:42]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.
- [03:45]
Host
I'm very excited to have you here. I can't believe we haven't had you on the show before. Before, but better late than never. And you've got a new book all about Cicero and this particular event from Cicero's life. The Catalinarian Conspiracy or the Cataline Conspiracy. It feels like it has it all. It's got backstabbing, brilliant speeches, schemings, unrest, and this larger than life figure of Cicero right at its heart. It's a fascinating episode of Roman history.
- [04:11]
Professor Catherine Edwards
It is indeed a completely fascinating episode and it's kind of a. It's a sort of, in some ways the high point of Cicero's own life, but it's also, it lays the seeds for terrible things that happened to him later. It's a moment of crisis, it seems, for the Roman Republic. And it's not just, you know, the sort of larger than life figure of Cicero whom we meet in this year dominating events. There's also of course the man after whom the conspiracy is named, its leader, Catiline. And then we also have a significant contributors to the debate, Julius Caesar and Cato. So you know a lot of major republican figures here.
- [04:53]
Host
So it's a big cuss. And this is Cato the Younger, not Cato the Elder.
- [04:57]
Professor Catherine Edwards
It is indeed Cato the Younger who is descended from Cato the Elder and very proud of that fact, but absolutely
- [05:04]
Host
Cato the Younger, he's not shouting, Carthage must be destroyed anyways. And why is this episode in 63 BC? Why is this such a big event in Cicero's story?
- [05:17]
Professor Catherine Edwards
This is a big event in Cicero's story for a variety of reasons, partly because Cicero himself never shut up about it. He was the most kind of eloquent, wordy man of his time. And he left an enormous legacy of his own speeches as well as other writings, his letters, treatises. So he chose to preserve the speeches that he gave as consul for the year 63 BCE he's kind of Rome's chief executive officer, one of two. And a couple of years after his consulship, he deliberately kind of wrote up these speeches and put them into circulation as models for young orators in years to come. So he was kind of setting himself up as a kind of a model speech maker. And that was a tremendously successful move because he's actually had that role kind of for hundreds of years, thousands of years indeed, since his lifetime. And the speeches of Cicero have been studied, particularly the Catilinarian orations by, you know, aspiring orators of many stripes.
- [06:25]
Host
I didn't realize that Cicero put his speeches in into public circulation as well. It gives you more of an insight into the man and how he wanted to be remembered.
- [06:35]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Absolutely. Now it wasn't unheard of for Roman politicians to put their speeches into circulation. The elder Cato indeed had done the same thing. Also a man of somewhat similar background to Cicero in some ways. But it was, it was a very deliberate move on Cicero's part. He was really curating his legacy from very early on. You know, he made comparisons between himself and the Athenian orator Demosthenes. He made these comparisons repeatedly. And then fortunately for Cicero, the kind of comparison was then picked up on by Plutarch when he did his Parallel Lives of Greeks and Romans. You know, 100 plus years later he paired Cicero and Demosthenes. So, you know, that aspiration on Cicero's part was, you know, kind of pursued and embedded in the tradition by Plutarch.
- [07:28]
Host
And you mentioned how I'm going to read from here, so I don't butcher the quote. Either of those who lived in Roman antiquity, Cicero is the one about whom most is known. And is that largely because of his own work surviving? You mentioned Plutarch as well, but is it largely because he wrote so much and it has survived down to us?
- [07:48]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Yes, I mean that's, there's sort of two factors there. There's the, the profusion of his writings, many speeches, but also really unusually and interestingly, Cicero's letters. He was a great letter writer. I mean, letter writing was an enormously important part of the lives of the Rome's political elite at a time when they're Governing a huge empire that kind of staying in touch with one another is really important. Cicero is a kind of master letter writer. He is absolutely brilliant at writing letters. And after he died, a collection was made of his letters, in fact, multiple collections. There was a collection of his letters to his friend Atticus, who was a close friend for, you know, really throughout his adult life. Although the letters to Atticus don't really get going until the 60s. So earlier on, we don't have letters between Cicero and Atticus. So it's like 450 odd of those letters. Then there's another collection which is Cicero's letters to friends. They're sometimes called ad familiares. That also includes letters to family members and indeed, very interestingly, to his secretary, his sometimes slave, and then freedman Tiro. And many people think that it was Tiro himself who edited these letters after Cicero's death. So there's those two big collections. And the collection of letters to friends also includes some letters addressed to Cicero by other people. People like Julius Caesar, Cato, you know, we've got their letters to Cicero. And then there's a smaller collection of letters that Cicero wrote to his brother Quintus, who is an important figure in his life, and then some fragments in antiquity. There were other collections of letters by Cicero in circulation. So we know that he wrote letters to Octavian, who later became Augustus. Very little of those have survived. Probably everybody involved wanted to suppress those. One can imagine. And actually there are also some letters to Brutus. One of the men who, who was responsible for the death of Julius Caesar is a good friend of Cicero. Letters to Marcus Brutus. Some of those are of dubious authenticity, but others are kind of more securely attributed to Cicero. So this huge corpus of Ciceronean letters that really lets us see a man embedded in all these different social networks. And particularly in the letters to Atticus, we get Cicero's kind of in the moment reflections on everything that's going on in Ro, and that includes a huge range of things. I mean, we get Atticus looks after Cicero's finances. David gets Cicero's money worries. We get family anxieties because Atticus's sister is married to Cicero's brother. So they have all this kind of family stuff they talk about as well. But I suppose the most striking thing is the. The kind of the constant speculation, gossip, reflection on what's going on in the political arena, trying to work out, you know, what other people's motives are. Cicero shares his anxieties about all sorts of things in. In the letters to Atticus. And I think that's one of the things that really has always drawn people to Cicero is that we get, yes, we get these sort of rather bombastic speeches, which are powerful in their own way. And Cicero's been pretty consistently admired as a. As a successful orator. But we also get this other side of Cicero in the letters, which is fascinating. In some ways. People kind of have criticized Cicero's character when Cicero's fortunes were kind of. I suppose much of Cicero's writing was kind of not really known in the kind of later Middle Ages, but with Petrarch and the sort of beginnings of the Italian Renaissance, you get this kind of rediscovery of Cicero. And Petrarch found a manuscript of Cicero's letters in the library of the cathedral chapter in Verona. And he was so thrilled because he was a big fan of Cicero. He thought, fine. Oh, God, I'm gonna read Cicero letters. Amazing. He read these letters and he thought, oh, my God, I can't believe it. Here's this guy. I really admired him. I've been reading his moral philosophy, and now I'm reading his letters. And he keeps changing his mind about everything. He's human, you know, he's very human. And on the one hand, you know, he then goes down massively in Petrarch's estimation. And Petrarch actually writes these letters to Cicero going, why on earth did you support Julius Caesar? And, you know, taking him to Tas? Or why did you support Mark Antony? Sorry, why did you. Why did you get into conflict with Mark Antony? But at the same time, there is this sort of almost this recognition of Cicero's humanity, his kind of human failings, which I think have made him. I mean, he provokes a lot of criticism for his character, if you like, but there's a strong sense that we kind of have access to his character.
- [12:49]
Instacart Advertiser
I mean.
- [12:49]
Host
Absolutely. And in regards then to the Catiline conspiracy event, which we're going to focus on, so we have those big bombastic speeches which we'll no doubt explore with the story, but I'm guessing another source. Do you get him mentioning Catiline in the letters that he has as well? So you get a bit of an interesting different side that we can also explore, that, you know, Cicero in the letters versus Cicero and the bombastic speeches.
- [13:11]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Well, one of the things that's quite interesting about the year 63 and a bit frustrating in some ways, is that we don't have any letters between Cicero and Atticus for that year when Cicero was consul, and very likely Atticus was in Rome, so they didn't need to write to one another at other times. Atticus was often away for long periods, and that's when we get these kind of very detailed, regular exchanges of correspondence. Not that we ever hear from Atticus, I might say. But to rephrase, we don't have letters from 63 BCE when Cicero actually is consul. However, we do have quite a lot of kind of later reflections on the events of that year in Cicero's letters to Atticus, and particularly his worries about how other people are judging his actions.
- [13:56]
Host
Right. So it sounds like we do have a bit of a bias problem regardless, though, in that if our main source for this event. Cicero is our main source for this story.
- [14:04]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Cicero is our main source for this story. But we do also have another quite detailed and pretty much contemporary account, which is Sallust's account of the war against Catiline. Sallust was a generation younger than Cicero, but he was very familiar with many of the key players in the events of 63. He was a close associate of Julius Caesar for a while, so he too was a kind of, you know, a senior Rome politician, although he'd stepped back from politics by the time he wrote this account of the Catalinarian conspiracy in the 40s BCE. And he gives us a rather different take on the events of 63 from the version that we get in Cicero. So that's quite interesting.
- [14:50]
Host
And you mentioned, of course, so 63 BC BCE is the year that we're going to be focusing on, and this is the year when Cicero becomes consul. The position of consul, basically the highest position that an elite Roman could get to in the late Roman Republic at that time. Can you briefly explain? I know it's a massive story, but Cicero's road to that point. Has he been active in the political sphere a long time to get to this big moment in his story?
- [15:21]
Professor Catherine Edwards
It's hard to gauge exactly when Cicero has set his sights on the consulship, but he was very clearly an ambitious young man and wanted to make a name for himself in the law courts at an early age. He is clearly a talented orator. He had some challenges to overcome because when he was in his late teens, early twenties, Rome was riven by the civil war between Marius and Sulla and then Sulla's dictatorship, which meant that there wasn't a lot going on in the Forum and law courts. But after the sort of restoration of order, Sulla's dictatorship, and then the restoration of sort of traditional government forms, largely in the wake of that, yes, Cicero does manage to Pursue a pretty standard political career in some ways. I mean, one of the things that's really important to appreciate about Cicero is that he doesn't come from a grand senatorial family. He has no senatorial ancestors. And that marks him out as different from the vast majority of the Senate and from virtually everybody who gets elected to be consul. So that road from a family with no senatorial ancestors. I mean, they were clearly very wealthy, the Cicero, and quite well connected. His father knew influential people in Rome. Cicero was sort of apprenticed. Cicero and his brother indeed were apprenticed to some of Rome's leading orators in their youth. So we have, you know, Cicero, who's clearly very talented and a persuasive speaker who kind of. And also a keen student not just of oratory, but also philosophy. And he stands for election to the office of Cuister, the sort of most junior office that entitles you to a seat in the Senate. And once he's been elected quaesta, that's a role that only lasts for one year. He's quaesta serving in Sicily, where he gains valuable experience. But he also, you know, has got this seat in the Senate and then that kind of, it really makes him part of that hugely influential body that kind of uses its authority, if you like. In theory at least.
- [17:40]
Host
He's got his first step on the ladder.
- [17:42]
Professor Catherine Edwards
He's got his first step on the ladder. Exactly so and later on he's elected praetor. You know, he makes a real name for himself with his speeches in the law courts. So the speech that he gives prosecuting Gaius varies in 70 BCE is an absolutely crucial moment for kind of making his name as an orator. But it's really interesting that, you know, there had been other men of, I suppose, non senatorial background making it to the top of the tree previously. And one of those came from the same small town of Cicero arpinum Gaius Marius. But Marius had, you know, a generation earlier, Marius had made his fortune as a hugely successful general in the military sphere. Cicero was, I mean, he did have military experience in his youth. He'd, he'd served under Pompeius Strabo fighting in the, in the kind of civil war, first of all the war against the Allies and then civil war period. But that was not really the sphere in which he excelled. And instead he really asserted the importance of the role of the orator in society and the orator as someone who provides leadership and provides ethical leadership for this and guidance for the state. So that's, that was how he Kind of, you know, presented what his, his contribution and what qualified him to hold highest office in Rome.
- [19:15]
Host
He's a brilliant speaker, he's worked his up the ladder, as you say, quaestor, praetor, all of these positions. And as you say, they also think he's not from a senatorial background. He's rich, but he's a new man, a Novus Homo as they say. So getting the consulship then in 63 BC, I mean that's a big deal for him to have and the power of his words rather than the power of money by other like the actual Crassus. But we've painted the scene for Cicero at that time. But let's introduce this figure of Catiline. So who is this big rival Catiline?
- [19:47]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Okay, so Catiline is pretty much contemporary with Cicero, maybe a couple of, probably a couple of years older. We don't know for sure. He comes from quite a different background. He comes from a rarely old patrician family. And the patricians in Rome were people who claimed that their ancestors had been in the Senate in the time of Romulus, Rome's mythical founder. And they went back a long way and they have, you know, there are various special religious roles particularly that patricians are entitled to hold that other people aren't. So he's fancy, he's very grand, he's also very ambitious and he holds various offices. However, he also gets himself into hot water in various ways. So he has, you know, after he'd been praetor, he went off to be a Roman provincial governor in Africa and the Roman province of Africa. But there were various embassies that came from the provincial subjects there complaining about his behaviour as governor. And he was prosecuted for extortion on his return to Rome. And that was by no means the only court case that brought against him. There was also a scandal about had he or had he not seduced one of the Vestal virgins, which was hugely scandalous. Now he was prosecuted for a variety of different crimes and always acquitted. So now prosecution. Roman politicians prosecuted one another constantly as it's a very litigious society. So, you know, in some ways it's not hugely unusual. But Catelyn does perhaps stand out as someone who got, you know, attracted a lot of scandal and he seems to have been quite a spendthrift now. So by the time we get to 63, Catiline appears to have enormous debts. He is by no means the only Roman politician to be in this situation. Julius Caesar had huge debts by this date as well. So. And we can perhaps come back later to the issue of debt. But Catiline was someone who had. Well, he'd wanted to stand for the consulship previously, but because he was about to be in the process of being prosecuted, he'd not really been able to be a candidate. So he stood for the consulship in the summer of 64 against Cicero. So he was one of the seven candidates for the consulship. Cicero, a guy called Gaius Antonius and Catiline were the three favorites, if you like.
- [22:27]
Host
Okay. Right.
- [22:28]
Professor Catherine Edwards
So Catiline seems to have spent a lot more money trying to get himself elected. But there were various doubts about Catiline's reliability and his interest in using violence to gain his ends, and the possibility that he might actually want to pass some rather radical measures, such as the abolition of debt. And in the end, it seems that Cicero was able to get the support of senior senators for his own candidature. So Cicero was elected, came top of the ballot. Gaius Antonius came second by a, you know, fairly significant distance. And then Catiline was third. And third gets you nowhere in Roman politics. So he spent a load of money which he didn't have, which he'd borrowed, and he was really in a difficult situation. So Catiline is. He's a failed Roman politician. He's one of the conspicuous failures, but he's by no means the only one. There were quite a lot of people around who had spent a lot of money trying to get elected and been unsuccessful. And because they were unsuccessful, that meant they would not go on to hold a provincial governor position following their year of office, which was often regarded as an excellent means to make a fortune back again, with which you can then repay all the people you borrowed money from to get elected.
- [23:55]
Narrator
Gosh.
- [23:56]
Host
Pulling no punches as well, by labeling him a failed politician. And do you think even in 64 BC, I don't. I guess we don't know much about Cicero's previous relationship with Catiline, but during that election campaign, can you imagine that Cicero was actively pushing others who weren't voting for him to vote for Gaius Antonius to make sure that Catiline did not get the consulship?
- [24:21]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Well, I mean, actually, Cicero attacks Gaius Antonius as well, and he really plays on everyone's anxieties. After the slave rebellion led by Spartacus.
- [24:33]
Host
Spartacus, okay, yeah.
- [24:35]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Which kind of rumbled on for quite some time between 73 and 71, there's a lot of anxiety. So the sense that Catiline, and perhaps Gaius Antonius too, might result, might resort to violence or something that Cicero seems to have kind of played on in his speech. But it was really Catiline he went for. He seems to have brought up all sorts of stories about incest with his sister, murder of family members, the appalling way he'd behaved during the Sullen prescriptions when Catiline was on the side of Sulla, and actually carried out various executions at the supposedly. Now, how much we should believe of any of this is not entirely clear. We also have the problem that this speech that Cicero made as a candidate for the consulship survives only in fragments or reports that other people references in other writers. So, you know, we're not entirely sure what he said and what he did say may not be entirely, you know, a lot of that may be kind of embroidered, fabricated. I think we do need to bear in mind when we think about Roman oratory, it is also about kind of entertaining your audience and evoking these extraordinarily vivid vignettes of, you know, the terrible. Conveying the terrible character of your opponent. The kind of strict truth is quite often a casualty, one suspects, in these situations. So, you know, the extremely toxic family situation of Catiline may be a significant exaggeration on Cicero's part.
- [26:13]
Host
Well, we'll now delve into what happens the next year and Kathleen coming back right after this
- [26:21]
Instacart Advertiser
Instacart makes grocery shopping easier. And just because you're not doing the shopping yourself doesn't mean you don't care how it's done. With Instacart Shopper notes, you can get particular about what you want right in the app. Like rotisserie chicken that's extra crispy steak with marbling the Romans would have loved. And lettuce you'd actually pick yourself. Just leave a note for your shopper so that they can get it right for you without having to ask. That way you can get groceries just how you like. Download the Instacart app and shop today.
- [26:51]
Edward Jones Advertiser
At Edward Jones, we believe rich is about taking care of what gives your life meaning. That's why your financial advisor personalizes your plan to help you preserve your progress and create something that lasts. Let's find your rich Edward Jones member, sipc.
- [27:06]
Don Wildman
Yeah.
- [27:07]
Carl's Jr. Advertiser
Maxing is so maxing right now, bro. Get ready for spicy chicken maxing because Carl's Jr. Is saving you big with a 5.99 maxed out double stack double stack double stack spicy chicken sandwich. Seriously, just 5.99 double stack spicy chicken. This is unreal value in the bromosphere. The new spicy Chicken Max Wallet Friendly Max Tasty only at Carl's Jr available for a limited time at participating restaurants. Tax uncluded, not valid for use within a combo or in combination with any other offered discount.
- [27:38]
Don Wildman
What started the Civil War? What ended the conflict in Vietnam? Who was Paul Rever? And did the Vikings ever reach America? I'm Don Wildman, and on American History Hit. My expert guests and I are journeying across the nation and through the years to uncover the stories that have made America. We'll visit the battlefields and debate floors where the nation was formed, meet the characters who have altered it with their touch, and count the votes that have changed the direction of our laws and leadership. Find American History Hit twice a week, every week, wherever you get your podcasts. American History Hit. A podcast from History Hit.
- [28:28]
Host
What's this big moment in 63 B.C. that sets it all off again?
- [28:34]
Professor Catherine Edwards
It's interesting to speculate exactly when Cicero starts to kind of of get a sense of something funny going on. But clearly it's important that Cataline is having another go at standing for the consulship. So he puts himself forward as a candidate in the summer of 63, hoping to secure election for the consulship of 62. So, you know, he tries again. He tries again, he tries again. However, there are all sorts of stories about how Cataline is going to resort to violence even in the course of the elections and the elections themselves are postponed. There are stories going around about what Catiline's been saying to his supporters. He has a rally in his house where he says, you know, the wealthy governing class of Rome are kind of, you know, choking everyone else to death. You know, we're all laden with debt. And there they are living in their grand houses and, you know, it's. It's got to stop. So there are these stories going around about Catiline planning if he doesn't get elected consul, what's he going to do? There are all these stories going around. Partly these stories must play a role in Catiline failing to get elected because his name is being tarnished with all sorts of stories. But the consequence of his not being elected is that he is in a completely desperate situation. He's taken on even more debt and what is he going to do now? And now, according to Cicero and Sallust as well, this is the point at which he's already kind of tried to use violence to affect the outcome of the elections. That hasn't worked. Instead, we have the elections of Silanus and Morena, who are now consuls elect for the year 62. And at this point we get Catiline clearly, well, according to Cicero, turning to violence, you know, to get his way. So he's staging a coup to make himself consul in the place of these men who've been elected. So. But exactly what's going on is really, really hard to work out because we have Cicero's very tendentious account of it in the first speech against Catiline, which he delivers in possibly probably the 8th of November. And he kind of gives us a summary of what's happened in previous months. And then we also have Sallust's account of what's going on. But again, you know, the, the sources that Sallust drawing on are not necessarily very clear. Now, some historians would say actually maybe Catiline didn't even think of turning to violence until he's attacked in the Senate by Cicero in early November, so much
- [31:23]
Host
later on, several months after his failure in the elections in the Senate.
- [31:27]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Well, the elections themselves had been because of the potential violence, the stories around violence associated with the elections. The elections normally happen in July. They may have been postponed to September even that is not entirely clear. But the elections finally happen, Cataline is defeated, and then he seems to have these supporters. And Cicero claims he's got a network of informants all over Italy who are feeding back to him, you know, accounts of what's going on. And the most worrying and obvious thing is sort of gathering of armed men in Phaezulae in Etruria. And these men are under the command of a man called Manlius, who had been a centurion in the army of Sulla. He's clearly an experienced military man and is himself, you know, a bit desperate. So we have this sort of quite complicated situation of a whole number of different groups of people who are feeling really disaffected and ready for revolt because they're so desperate one way or another. Now, some of these groups are people whose lands were taken from them by Saleh in order to give land allotments to his veteran soldiers. Some of them are veteran soldiers who've kind of failed to make a success of their farming. We have another group who are descendants of individuals who were proscribed by Sulla. That's to say, you know, they were made outlaws. They could be killed with impunity. And they, they and their descendants lost the right to participate in politics in Rome. So the, the proscribed are feeling this huge sense of resentment and really wanting some kind of revolution to turn things around. And offer them a way back into Roman politics. And that had been a kind of a real issue for some time. And the, the resentment of the so prescribed was something that Cicero and others were aware of to a degree.
- [33:28]
Host
And so had those people been the ones who had been championing Catiline in the previous election, or are these people who are disillusioned off their own back and they're kind of. They're gathering together regardless?
- [33:38]
Professor Catherine Edwards
It's hard to say exactly who Catiline's supporters were in the elections that took place in 64 and indeed in 63. Obviously he had some supporters, but not enough to get him over the line. The proscribed are not able to vote because that, you know, they're still suffering from this ban, but they're, you know, itching to get back into, to reclaim their rights, reclaim their property and all the rest of it. So there are, there are all sorts of people who are feeling disaffected. And the urban populace of Rome is a really important group as well. I mean, we have, you know, Rome has this growing population, lots of people. Salas talks about all the people who come in to Rome looking for work because their farm has failed in the countryside, or they've lost their farm. They come to Rome looking for work, and there's not very much work in Rome, or it's very seasonal. It's very hard to make a living. So there's a lot of people who are feeling very precarious in one way or another. And people. Many of these people have debts. So Cataline's proposal to cancel debts is an enormously appealing one for many different groups for different reasons. So it's appealing to those aristocratic politicians who've really got themselves into debt trying to get elected to high office. But it's also really appealing to people much kind of lower down the social scale, if you like, who, you know, have maybe got into debt just to get enough to eat. So it's kind of a whole lot of different people who are looking for big changes. And there are rumors that Catiline too may bring about proscriptions where you confiscate the lands of your. Of your outlawed enemies and redistribute them to your supporters. So, you know, that could be further opportunities for people who are feeling very marginalized and resentful. I mean, one of the things we have to remember about Rome in this period is the massive, massive inequality that is becoming ever more conspicuous. And that's one of the things that's so interesting about Sallust's. Account of the Catilinarian conspiracy is that. Is that there's actually quite a lot of similarity between the kinds of observations that Catiline makes about, you know, the terrible situation that they're in in Rome with these rich people with their huge houses and their fish ponds and everything else. So Catiline gives a speech in Sallust, kind of drawing attention to, you know, the houses of the rich on the one hand, and then the wretched living conditions of the poor on the other. But also Sallust himself, in his introduction to his account of the conspiracy, makes the same point. So there's a recognition in Sallust, and this is why I think Sallust's account is such an interesting kind of complement to Cicero's speeches. In Sallust's account, there's a recognition of the serious problems of inequality and the justified resentments of many different groups. I mean, Sallust is also critical, and he does talk about, you know, all the dregs of the countryside are finding their way to Rome and that kind of thing. But at the same time, you know, he is very critical of the. The kind of Roman, I suppose, the successful members of the Roman elite and how they have just enriched themselves and are concerned about nothing beyond kind of, you know, their own fortunes.
- [37:07]
Host
So although Casteline loses the election, as you mentioned, his policies are popular with lots of people. And as he mentioned, you have that massing together of a group of armed men north of Rome in Tuscany, in Etruria Faesulae, as this is happening over the summer and in the autumn of 63 BC. Do you think Catiline is seeing this and do you think he's involved with this buildup? Is he thinking this is actually a good show of force to show the people that my policies are actually popular?
- [37:37]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Or.
- [37:38]
Host
I mean. I mean, what do you think? Is he actually planning an insurrection with these men? What do you think?
- [37:43]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Yeah, it's a really interesting question is kind of at what point do Catiline and Manlius really. Kind of.
- [37:49]
Host
Because we think they are working. We think they are working together to.
- [37:52]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Well, yes, Cicero clearly thinks they're working together. And he sort of intercepted some messages in October that suggest they're kind of anonymous messages saying. There's an anonymous message to Crassus saying, you know, get out of Rome because Catiline's planning to bring about a revolution. So how reliable is this? Who knows? But certainly that fuels Cicero's suspicion that Catiline and Manlius are kind of collaborating and there are stories about armed gatherings elsewhere in Italy as well. So it all feels quite uncomfortable. But I think one of the challenges or one of the frustrations for Cicero is trying to find some actual proof that Catiline is really linked to these armed gatherings elsewhere in Italy. It's not until quite late on that he actually, you know, achieves that when, when he manages to get the, the, these Gauls, the Allobroges, who's. They're on an embassy to Rome. And of course the Gauls as well are really suffering from debt. They've borrowed loads of money in order to pay their taxes to Rome. And the reason these Gauls have come, come to visit to the Senate is that they want remission of their debts.
- [39:10]
Host
And when we're talking about the Gauls here, we're not talking across the Alps in modern day France. These are Gauls who are in northern Italy who have come under the control of the Romans. Or are we talking a bit further afield and they're being forced to pay money almost as tribute to Rome.
- [39:24]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Yes. So these are the Allobroges, are the other side of the Alps.
- [39:27]
Host
Oh, they are the other side. Okay. My apologies.
- [39:29]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Yes, yes, because at one point Cicero says, you know, the conspiracy has spread over the Alps. So, so the, the Alobriges then have, have sent their embassy to Rome. They want support from the Senate because they are feeling really up against it. They've got an oppressive governor and these Roman money lenders are oppressing them as well. So they want, you know, the idea of canceling debts is very appealing for them. And initially they are quite drawn to support Catiline and they think, well, that could work out quite well for us to have debts canceled. But they also have cold feet and they, in the end, someone who is kind of connected to one of the Gallic ambassadors persuades them to help with a plot to secure written evidence of the complicity of Catiline. Then we get the letters. So these Allobroges, the Gauls are persuaded to get some letters that they can then take home to their compatriots and say, look, we've got a guarantee from Catiline. And then there's also a letter from the conspirators in Rome to Catiline, who's by then in Etruria. And by this point, then Cicero actually has this written evidence, but when he makes his first speech to the Senate, at that point he doesn't have written evidence of Catiline's involvement with these other armed groups. So, you know, that's I think where scholars can take quite different views about whether how far Catiline really was working with Manius and other groups elsewhere in
- [41:14]
Host
Italy, because Catiline leaving Rome, I mean, that feels like an important moment. And can we get to how that happens? Because is there a couple of ends before this where Cicero is getting more rumblings, more thoughts that actually Catiline could be involved with these armed men, or at least what we hear in the surviving sources, because what's this mention of a woman called Fulvia being an informant?
- [41:36]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Yes. Okay, so Fulvia is a key. Plays a key role really, in the discovery of the conspiracy. She is an aristocratic Roman woman. She's having a relationship with a man called Quintus Curious, who had once been a senator, but like quite a few others, had been expelled from the Senate in the year 70 for a variety. I mean, senators were expelled for a variety of reasons, but it was might be to do with not having sufficient wealth to support their position in the Senate, or it might be to do with their poor moral behavior. But it was a bit catastrophic, actually, for a Roman politician to be expelled from the Senate. So Quintus Curious is a slightly desperate man. He's lost status and he's part of the conspiracy. He's really drawn to Catiline's conspiracy. So Fulvia is having this relationship with him and her suspicions are aroused because according to Sallust and other sources, previously, Curious had been very mean and kind of never bought her presents. But then he started getting much more generous. And so she gets suspicious and she's curious what is going on. And Curious reveals to her, you know, everything's going to change. It's all going to be so much better because we're going to have this revolution and, you know, the. These awful upstarts like Cicero are going to be got rid of and we're going to have, you know, Cataline's going to be consul and it will all be great. And so Fulvia is a bit doubtful about this. And she communicates this information via intermediaries to Cicero. And gradually Fulvia picks up more and more about what the conspirators are planning. And one of the things that she seems to be the source for is a plan to assassinate Cicero. So the news leaks out that there's a gathering in the house of a man called Lyca in the scythemaker's street in Rome of Catiline and his supporters. And a plan is made for two men to go to Cicero's House, pretending to be about to offer him, you know, greetings of a morning, a sort of standard Roman practice. But they're going to kill him. But Cicero gets wind of this, and he prevents these two men from entering his house the next morning and foils their plot. But this is one of the things that he describes in very vivid detail in his speech, in his first speech against Catiline in the Senate about how he's been dodging multiple attempts on his life by Catiline. Now, quite possibly, Catiline did plan to kill Cicero. I mean, in a way, you know, if he wanted to secure the consulship for himself, then that would be, you know, a plausible thing to do. And we should remember that political murder was by no means uncommon in the. In the decades. In the previous decades, we, you know, we've had the prescriptions of sulla, you know, we've had all sorts of terrible things happening in the city of Rome.
- [44:40]
Host
But to kill a consul, Catherine, that.
- [44:42]
Professor Catherine Edwards
To kill a consul, well, it is a big step to kill a consulate consul. And who knows exactly what would have happened had the consul been killed, but he wasn't. He foiled the attempt if there was an attempt. But Cicero also started to make these really broad claims about how Catiline wanted to kill everybody in Rome, or, you know, so that he paints the picture of Catiline as planning a sort of complete bloodbath, as a way to convince the rest of the Senate that proper action against Catiline and his supporters needs to be taken.
- [45:14]
Host
And at that time, Catiline is still in Rome, is he hasn't left the city.
- [45:17]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Yes. Now that.
- [45:18]
Host
That's interesting. That's interesting. Yes.
- [45:20]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Well, and that. And I think the fact that Catiline is still in Rome is one of the reasons that some scholars will say, well, you know, was Catiline really, you know, planning violence at this point? So there's this meeting of the Senate in the Temple of Jupiter, startle probably on the 8th of November, where Cataline is there in attendance. And Cicero gives, you know, this sort of searing speech which is then known later as. Or the version that survives is known as the first speech against Catiline. And he really lays into him, you know, how long will you abuse our patience, Cataline? And he goes on and on at him about how everyone knows that he is planning terrible things and planning violence against the city, planning to set fire to the city. All these claims are made about what Catiline's planning. And yet you still, you, you know, have the effrontery to carry on sitting here, see how, you know, you've been isolated, everyone's moved away from you in this. So he paints this really vivid picture of Cataline sitting isolated on a bench in the Senate and everyone else is kind of, you know, shrinking away from this terrible man. He's, you know, one of their own, and yet is allegedly planning a coup against the Roman state. So what Cicero says is, you know, I have the authority to have you executed. Which is rather a dubious claim. And he says, if I were you, Catalan, I would just go into exile. So in some ways, you know, Cataline's retreat from Rome, which he, he seems to leave the night after that speech is given and he goes off to Etruria and joins up with, with Manus.
- [47:00]
Host
Okay, now, now they finally, now, okay,
- [47:02]
Professor Catherine Edwards
so now he's out in the open. I mean, in some sisters said, you know, you know, we'll see you leave the city and then we'll really know that you're in this conspiracy. And so in some ways, Catiline does kind of show he's right. Except that, you know, we could also tell a bit of a different story about Catiline if we, if we think about Catiline as someone who feels actually completely scandalized that this jumped up new man from Arpinum has been elected consul when he feels it's, you know, he is a patrician, it's always his entitlement to be elected consul. Catiline is, you know, one thing we should, shouldn't forget about Catiline. He was actually a very successful military man. So he was, you know, admired for his incredible talents as a military leader. He was sort of tireless at the head of an army. He, you know, and he, we get these quotations or speeches attributed to Catiline in Sallust's account, particularly where, you know, he, he communicates to some of the other, you know, old established aristocrats in the Senate and says things like, you know, my dignity has been affronted. You know, I am, you know, this is, I'm claiming what is my right, you know, so that sort of sense that he deserved to be consul and Cicero didn't and that he kind of wants to right that wrong. But then he's also presenting himself as the champion of the oppressed, which is a somewhat kind of curious combination.
- [48:38]
Host
Right, well, we'll get to the grand climax of this conspiracy now that he's left Rome right after this
- [48:49]
Instacart Advertiser
Instacart makes grocery shopping easier. And just because you're not doing the shopping yourself doesn't mean you don't care how it's done. With Instacart shopper notes, you can get particular about what you want right in the app. Like rotisserie chicken that's extra crispy steak with marbling the Romans would have loved and lettuce you'd actually pick yourself. Just leave a note for your shopper so that they can get it right for you without having to ask. That way you can get groceries just how you like. Download the Instacart app and shop today.
- [49:19]
Carl's Jr. Advertiser
Maxing is so maxing right now, bro. Get ready for spicy chicken maxing because Carl's Jr. Is saving you big with a 5.99 maxed out double stack double stack double stack spicy chicken sandwich. Seriously, just 5.99 double stack spicy chicken. This is unreal value in the bromosphere. The new spicy chicken Max wallet friendly Max tasty only at Carl's Jr available for limited time at participating restaurants, taxon included. Not valid for use within a combo or a combination with any other offered this scout.
- [49:53]
Host
So we've kind of covered the, the story of those earlier months in 63, you know, these groups of armed men outside of Rome, Manlius, for instance, in Tuscany, and these groups who support what Cataline was backing. The big question of how involved he was in wanting an insurrection. But now with that damning speech by Cicero, and Cicero very much thinks he is his keen insurrection, Catiline has left Rome and he has for the first time, he's now met up with Manlius and these forces north of Rome. And for Cicero, is this the proof that he was looking for what happens next?
- [50:36]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Well, it seems that there are still some doubters in the Senate about what Catiline's intentions really are. And Catiline did have some supporters in the Senate, although Cicero would like us to believe he. He didn't. But he's, he's kind of in touch with some of the more conservative figures like Catulus. He writes to Catulus to kind of, you know, talk about his. Catiline writes to Catulus it justifying his actions. That's where we get this thing about his dignity being.
- [51:02]
Host
And he's a conservative senator.
- [51:04]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Yes, he's these conservative senators. And there are all kinds of stories actually about senators who are quite in favor of, of Catiline potentially and certainly at an earlier stage that perhaps even Crassus, the richest man in Rome, had been backing Catiline partly to get back at Pompey, one of those complicated bits of Roman Politicking behind the scenes and who knows whether Crassus was ever really a backer of Catiline. But we now have this situation where in a way Cicero himself is apparently absolutely convinced that Catiline is a massive threat to Rome. And he, in his, even in his first speech against Catiline, he aligns him with other individuals who've been seen as, you know, wanting to overturn the Roman state. Although historians might dispute his version of events. But, you know, he says, oh, it's, you know, he's like Gaius Gracchus or, you know, he'd been a revolutionary, supposedly revolutionary Tribune back in 121bce and ended up being killed by, by conservatives. And that was a very kind of controversial situation at the time. So Cicero, you know, having. Cicero claims that Catiline poses this terrible threat, but there are still plenty of people who are not, not totally convinced. And this is really why Cicero needs to get that written evidence that, you know, really is going to be damning. So, you know, when he's finally, he's hatched this plot with the, the, the Gaelic envoys and they have, you know, got these letters, the. He's then able to use, use the letters to implicate not just Catiline but also various other individuals, some of whom are actually in the Senate and that. And the most senior of those is Lentula Surrer, who is actually a praetor for the year 63.
- [53:09]
Host
So quite high up, not console, but still quite high.
- [53:11]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Yes, well, Lentuluser is a really interesting character. He had been expelled from the Senate in 70. He'd managed to kind of claw his way back. So he'd. This is his second time as praetor. He got to be praetor before and then been, you know, sort of got up the ladder and then like a snake of, of being kind of expelled from the Senate. You have to kind of go down a bit, start again. So he'd managed to get back to being praeta but clearly wasn't, you know, wasn't happy with the, the situation in Rome. And so he's the most senior of those who are supposed, who are allegedly involved in the conspiracy, who are, who stayed in Rome. So Catiline's left and gone to join Manlius. But there are these other guys who are, are in the city. And so while Catiline is off with his armed force in Tuscany, Cicero now has the issue of these letters that implicate these guys. And they are. The letters are kind of opened in the Senate in front of these Individuals. And Cicero describes how guilty they look. You know, you can see they're guilty just by looking at their faces. And then, then he also says that they confessed. Now what they confessed to is not entirely clear, but you know, we have these other guys, you know, including Roman senators, who are where there's written proof that they are involved in Catiline's conspiracy. So you know, this is a very kind of scary situation and a complicated situation.
- [54:47]
Host
Complicated situation. But Cicero gets his way in that they are. Does he get his way that they are. They're evidently found guilty of being conspirators.
- [54:59]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Well, found guilty is an interesting way to put it because they don't have a trial. And that is part of what makes this whole episode so problematic. We've got Roman citizens who are accused of involvement in a conspiracy. But these men in Rome have not been, you know, they've not been caught red handed in, in anything like that. You know, they're not kind of at the head of an armed force, you know, in Tuscany that's, that's Cataline. They are in the city and allegedly one of them's found with a whole load of weapons in his house. But I mean, you know, they, but they don't have a proper trial. They are treated as if they are manifestly guilty by Cicero. And then we have this sort of big debate in the Senate about what to do with these manifestly guilty men.
- [55:47]
Host
So, so Roman citizens is manifestly guilty, accused of treason. And so Cicero, he goes big on this. He wants the worst penalty possible.
- [55:58]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Cicero wants the worst penalty possible. But he's by no means the only one. And I think one of the things that we need to appreciate about this, this debate in the Senate is that there are plenty of people expressing different opinions. The majority of people are in favor of killing these guys. Oh, okay, so we have Kato the Younger, for instance, who gives a very strong speech in favor of pushing them to death. Now there are voices that speak in favor of, you know, not rushing into things. And most prominent among those, at least according to Salas account of the conspiracy, is Julius Caesar. And Julius Caesar says this is going to set a really dangerous precedent and we should really think, think very hard before we do something as drastic as this. Let's put them in prison for a while instead. I mean, I think part of, part of the problem is normally when aristocratic Romans are found guilty, they are allowed to retreat into exile, capital punishment. So. But in this case to allow these men to leave Rome would be almost, you know, to give them an Obvious opportunity to just go and join forces with Catiline in Tuscany. So that's not really an option here. Imprisonment is not a standard punishment in ancient Rome, but it's not entirely clear why it's not possible to keep them prison, at least until Catiline's been defeated in the field. And that seems to be the kind of thing that Julius Caesar's talking about. But the strongest voices in the Senate are in favor of executing these men. And, and Cicero does speak in favor of this, but he's not the only one. What really puts Cicero on the spot is that he's the consul. So the Senate can make a decision, but in a way that doesn't make it law. So Cicero takes it upon himself to execute what he or to carry out what is the decision of the Senate. But he kind of carries the can for that, that. So he, as consul, oversees. There are five men in total who are in this. This category. So they are in custody temporarily, and then he oversees their being marched up to the Mamertine prison on the Capitoline Hill. And then they go down into this horrible dank prison, which Sallust describes very vividly, and then they're strangled to death.
- [58:34]
Host
So these powerful Romans who have been in the Senate are infamously strangled to death. And Cicero is the one who effectively gave the orders for that to happen.
- [58:46]
Professor Catherine Edwards
He gave the orders for that to happen. And not only that, but he himself accompanied these men on their walk to the prison and he put his hand on Lentulus shoulder. Lentulus is the most senior of the. Of the group, the one who's praetor for 63. Cicero puts his hand on his shoulder and, you know, so he's basically, you know, got him under arrest, marches him up to Mambtown Prison and, you know, witnesses the. The execution of the conspiracy.
- [59:17]
Host
Wow, Cicero. There you go. So that is what happens to the conspirators. They're executed, and Cicero is the man very much behind it. We must wrap up also, though, the story of Catiline, because he is not there. He is out of Rome with Manlius. And these are men, men in Tuscany. They've got to figure out what to do with these guys as well.
- [59:37]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Yes, they have. And I mean, one of the, you know, one of the complicating factors, I think, with Cicero's speeches against Catiline is that, you know, the most of his anger is directed against Catiline himself. But as you say, Catiline is not among the group who get executed in Rome. He's off in Tuscany with his troops. And Cicero's colleague as consul, Gaius Antonius, is put at the head of an armed force and he goes off to Tuscany. And actually Gaius Antennas himself is indisposed. So it's his deputy who leads, who leads the forces. And Catiline's forces are massively outnumbered. Nevertheless, it is really striking. No one deserts Catiline's cause. They fight on. They fight until they're basically all dead on the battlefield. And at the forefront is Catiline himself. So in Salis Zakat, which concludes with the death of catalytic Catiline, we have this really almost tragic situation of Catiline, in many ways a very talented, albeit kind of, you know, aristocrat gone wrong character who's, you know, has this incredible capacity for leadership that he's put to perverted ends. But we see an almost redemptive moment for him at the end because we can see how he's inspired loyalty in his followers. And, you know, they have followed him to their deaths on the battlefield.
- [61:02]
Host
They believed in his cause of insurrection. Whether it was largely just because you clear our debts, you might give us a new life, or for whatever other reason, it's probably his military background as well. He was able to kind of continue with the loyalty of those figures even when it was very much against them. The whole state was against them.
- [61:20]
Arsh Manning (Vuori Advertiser)
That idea.
- [61:21]
Professor Catherine Edwards
No, absolutely, absolutely. So he's obviously quite charismatic. And it's quite interesting, many years later, when Cicero is defending a young friend of his, Kylius, it turns out that Kylias himself had been for a while a follower of Catiline. And in that speech in defense of Caelius in the mid-50s, Cicero actually says, well, of course Catiline was terribly charming and charismatic, because he's trying to make excuses for Caelius about the fact that Caelus had actually followed Catiline for a while. So we didn't get quite such a sort of. Of Catiline as a evil incarnate in that particular context.
- [62:03]
Host
Oh, yes, the veil is a nice glimpse behind the curtain there. Interesting. So that is, the story of the Castine conspiracy doesn't end well for Casteline, and of course, Cicero is the figure who is the man at the top during it and oversees the execution of these five conspirators, which is such a big moment. How does this. How does this affect Cicero's career after that point? Is he hailed as a hero, the man who stopped this potential insurrection, or is it less favorable for him?
- [62:38]
Professor Catherine Edwards
It's a pretty complicated story what happens afterwards, because some people Hail Cicero as a hero. He is, you know, after the execution, he's, he's kind of escorted by cheering crowds. Crowds he's hailed as father of the fatherland. You know, he's rescued Rome and he presents himself as being Rome's savior. He saved Rome from the threat of arson. Whether Catiline ever really meant to burn down Rome is a moot point. You know, he saved Rome, the Roman state. But already, you know, even before the end of December, he's being challenged. One of the tribunes prevents Cicero from making his speech that a consul normally makes on laying down office on the grounds that Cicero has executed Roman citizens without trial. And that is a breach of the liberties of the Roman people. So, and it is of course, the tribune's job particularly to protect the liberties of the Roman people. And clearly there are plenty of people criticizing Cicero at the time and in subsequent years, Cicero spends an inordinate amount of time defending what he did in 63, so boasting about how he saved the state, but in such a way that, you know, makes it clear he is constantly under defend himself. He has to defend himself. And you know, later commentators say things like, well, you know, Cicero praised his consulship, not wrongly, but too much kind of thing that, you know, he just went on and on about it. And that made him a bit of a figure of fun in some ways. But he was absolutely right to be anxious about his reputation because a few Years later, in 58 BCE, a Tribune, Publius Clodius, whom Cicero had been at odds with for a variety of reasons, reasons. But Clodius engineered, He really sort of made the most of all these criticisms of Cicero, kind of going against Roman citizen rights and enacted a piece of legislation obliging Cicero to go into exile. So, and Cicero was furious also, absolutely devastated. He was in exile for 16 months. Absolutely. Really horrifying experience for him because he had no idea if he'll ever get back to Rome. He had no idea what would happen next. It was terrible for his family. You know, it was, it was an absolute disaster. And that was, you know, in a sense, the cause for that, if you like. Or at least the excuse for that that Clodius used was, was the execution of the Catalinarian conspirators.
- [65:24]
Narrator
Right.
- [65:24]
Host
So that's the reason that gives the, the motivation for Cicero's exile. Catherine, this has been a fascinating chat, insight into the Cassinarian conspiracy and how complex it is, especially when you explore the character of Catiline and how involved, how much he actually wanted an insurrection, how Much of this is Cicero kind of just being convinced in Catiline's involvement from the beginning, when Catiline really gets involved in it. My last question is, from Cicero's own viewpoint, do you think at the end of his life, would he have viewed defeating the Catalinarian conspiracy in his eyes? Do you think he would have viewed it as his finest hour, his greatest achievement?
- [66:08]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Well, we can say for sure that he viewed it as his finest.
- [66:11]
Narrator
He did.
- [66:12]
Professor Catherine Edwards
He definitely viewed it as his finest achievement. We can see that from the speeches that he makes in the last year of his life where he's attacking Mark Antony and he presents himself as entitled to attack Mark Antony, whom he accuses of having ambitions to take over Caesar's position, because this was after the assassination of Julius Caesar. Mark Antony was Caesar's deputy. And Cicero comes up with a series of blistering speeches against Mark Antony, known as the Philippics. And in those, he is really almost reprising his role in attacking Catiline. And he presents Mark Antony as, you know, here is a new Catiline.
- [66:55]
Host
No, worse Cataline.
- [66:56]
Professor Catherine Edwards
Exactly, exactly. He was posing a very similar devastating threat to the Roman state. And in fact, he attacked Clodius in similar terms as well. So he kept sort of, you know, in aligning all his personal enemies with the attacks on the Roman state. You know, he. He was kind of constantly reinforcing this idea of himself as the savior of Rome in 63, whether other people were quite so convinced, who. Who can say, you know, that he was. He. He never, never returned to the position that he'd had as consul. He. Yes, people wanted to get him on their side to have his powerful oratory back them up. But, you know, if. If he got on the wrong side of Caesar in the mid-50s, that was. That was not going to go well.
- [67:39]
Host
Well, that's another story entirely. I mean, Catherine, this has been absolutely brilliant. What a story. And it features in your new book, all about the life of Cicero.
- [67:48]
Professor Catherine Edwards
It is called, indeed it is Orator, the Life of Cicero and the End of the Roman Republic.
- [67:53]
Host
And that is out soon. That is out in July, out on
- [67:56]
Professor Catherine Edwards
the 23rd of July.
- [67:58]
Host
Brilliant. Catherine, it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show.
- [68:01]
Professor Catherine Edwards
It's been a pleasure. Thank you.
- [68:15]
Arsh Manning (Vuori Advertiser)
Sa.
- [69:41]
Professor Catherine Edwards
At Edward Jones, we believe rich means
- [69:44]
Instacart Advertiser
opening yourself to new possibilities. That's why your dedicated financial advisor meets you where you are, helping you move forward with confidence. Let's find your rich Edward Jones Member, sipc.
- [69:56]
Carl's Jr. Advertiser
Yeah, Maxing is so maxing right now bro. Get ready for spicy chicken maxing because Carl's Jr. Is saving you big with a 5.99 maxed out double stack Double stack Double stack spicy chicken sandwich. Seriously, just 5.99 double stack spicy chicken. This is unreal value in the bromosphere. The new spicy chicken Max Wallet friendly Max Tasty only at Carl's Jr available for a limited time at participating restaurants. Tax unincluded, not valid for use within a combo or a combination with any other offered discount.