Professor Rosamund McKitterick (4:01)

It's very nice to be here as well. Tristan, thank you for inviting me.

Tristan (4:05)

You're more than welcome. And to talk about the first popes and in particular, this key work which talks a lot about them, this Liber Pontificales. I'm going to get straight into it, Rosamund, what is the Liber Pontificales?

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (4:20)

Right. Well, the Liber Pontificalis is a biographical history. It's written as serial biography. So it starts with pope number one, and it goes all the way up to Pope number 112, with a couple of gaps right towards the end, end of the 9th century. But the interesting thing is the first section of it was first put together in the early 6th century, and they came back to it in the 7th century, and then after that, it's continued more or less on a contemporary basis. When I say they, I mean the people actually working for the pope in his administration. So it's written by officials within the administration who knew the popes, and that gives them special access to particular records, particularly the estate records, and also the records of donations and grants, diplomatic things, and the letters in the papal registers and the records of synods. So they had access to the papal archive, essentially, and they're based in Rome.

Tristan (5:28)

And how important is this text for learning about the earliest popes when you're going really far back in the story and also, I guess, for early Christianity in Rome?

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (5:40)

Well, what one has to remember, first of all is the context in which they were writing and therefore why they might present the earliest history in a very particular way. So that's one thing, is the attitude in the early 6th century to the earliest popes, and I'll come back to that. The second thing is the kind of material they had to draw on. What do you do when you sit down in the papal archive in the early 6th century to try and reconstruct 600 years of your institution's history. Well, they did have some records. They had the records I've told you about already, the letters, synodal archives and other documents. But they also had various lists, one of which was the so called calendar of 354, which as its name suggests, was probably compiled in 354, and that gave a list of popes. And it also interestingly gave burial places as well. And the burial places listed is a signal to us that actually we can observe the archaeological material and places where there are records and inscription and epigraphic evidence of particular popes being buried. So essentially, the people in the 6th century set out to reconstruct the history from the very beginning up to then. But that's not really enough to know. That's sort of very bland and it's got no motive or interest. But for the earliest popes, one absolutely crucial factor is that the first pope, the first bishop of Rome, as far as they were concerned in the early 6th century, and indeed how the rest of the world was concerned, was St. Peter, one of Christ's disciples. And Christ had said to Peter, according to Matthew, chapter 16, you are the rock. And it was a play on the word Petrus, meaning rock in Greek, you are the rock, and on this rock I will build my church. So Peter and his church was actually founded by Christ. That's the key thing for them. And that means that to establish the history of the Christian church is to the people writing in the early 6th century, the same as establishing the history of the papacy and the bishops of Rome. The now, when they set out to write this, they were calling on all kinds of early material. And one of the interesting things is that we can put beside the Liber pontificalis, other material that was written from the 2nd and 3rd centuries, and of course the Gospel stories and the Acts of the apostles, so that we can get a certain amount of material relating to St Paul, to James, to Christ and Peter and some of the other early apostles from Acts and then some later Christian letters. And one thing that becomes clear is that the author of the Liba pontificalis, even within this very strange structure of bishop by bishop by bishop, is trying to create an idea that the only people that mattered were this succession of bishops. In other words, they're not telling us much about any local controversy about differences about different religious groups. What we do hear about is the way in which individual popes, as you succeed, from Peter to Linus Cleitus Clemens iv, Pope who all very firmly are recorded as being given their authority by Peter, is that these people were the only ones that mattered. Their authority is the key. Whereas just occasionally you also hear about dissident groups or dissident individuals. And one thing that's also very important for the very earliest popes in the first four centuries is that they are, of course, bishops in Rome under pagan emperors. So nearly all the earliest popes are martyred. Their deaths are recorded. Perhaps it might help if I gave an idea of what the structure of a biography in the Liba Pontificalis is. It's all very similar. There's a formula. So first of all, you have the name of the bishop, and it says he was bishop for such and such. If I give you just one example of just a simple one, Pope number 12, Anicetus.

Tristan (10:23)

Okay.

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (10:24)

Born in Syria, son of John, from the village of Umesa, held the sea 11 years, four months and three days. So that bit of the formula is absolutely standard. Where he was born, or in fact, the Latin is Nazione. So you might want to say his origin was such and such, or his family came from such and such, or once upon a time, he had actually come from a Syrian family. But they always say, it's translated by Davis, was born in Nazi only Syria, son of John. They always give who his father was from and then a particular place, if they know it, from the village of Umesa, that's actually in Syria. So he really was from Syria. And they always tell you how long he was pope for. Then he was bishop in the time of Severus. So he was bishop in the time of the emperor Severus and Marcus from the consulship of Gallicanus and Vetus. And because of our ancient records, we can then collate what this text tells us with the dating according to the consular years, which we get from other Roman sources. So there's lots of chronological indicators where you can verify the names and the period and the passage of time. Then it says he decreed that, as the apostle had instructed, a cleric should not groom his hair. He performed five December ordinations, 19 priests, four deacons. And that bit we can conclude they got from the register every pope, how many ordinations he did, which they only did once or twice a year, special occasions. And then for various places, nine bishops died a martyr and was buried in the cemetery of Callistus on the 20th of April. The bishopric was vacant 17 days. Now, that actually is one of the shortest lives, because that bit in the middle where he decreed that as the impostor had Instructed. There's often, if the bishop did give some kind of legislative guidance or contributed to the formation of the liturgy or held a synod. But that bit is, as it were, the historical acts. So often that can be really, really long. Now, then the bit at the end of his ordinations and where he was buried, that's also standard. So you've got these formulaic bits, but latitude to add things if he knew anything. And there are one or two instances where he says, well, I. I can't tell you who his father was. I've got no idea. The records won't tell you me. Or else another section that gets added. And he gave the following gifts. So you have. And that's particularly the case for some of the later lives from Sylvester onwards, from the 4th century, where he gave the following gifts. And it lists not just churches, church buildings, but incredibly long lists of ornaments, silks, gold, gold vessels, silver vessels, wooden doors, statues, frescoes, mosaics. So from the 4th century account onwards, the Liber Pontificalis is a godsend to art historians because it gives them some kind of framework and understanding of the way in which the buildings of Rome were built and then embellished. So essentially, the text has got in it formation has got a lot of potential to put a great lot of information in.

Tristan (13:55)

So you've got that information. But what are also the frustrations with this text for wanting to learn more about these early popes?

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (14:01)

Yeah, the frustration is that they could have told us much more and they don't. There's other information. You can. I mean, he was crowned with martyrdom. Well, by whom, in what circumstances? The lack of particular detail. There are some instances, if I look up, for instance, the life of Cornelius, who is Pope number 22, Cornelius was particularly famous because he is the one who dug up and moved the body of St. Peter from where he had been originally buried, as far as we can tell, on the Via Appia, over to the place where he had been martyred on the Vatican hill, which is where we now think of him being buried. And there's a great long passage about this whole translation. They do tell us about that. But there was also some kind of problem with his position in Rome that there was a rival bishop, and we don't really know anything about that. We can piece some of it together so that throughout the text, you get hints here and there that in the first four centuries the popes are up against the problem of pagan emperors, that they are presented as if they are quite well established. But when you read it very carefully, there are Hardly anybody in their little entourage. It's a very small group of people. There are quite possibly other groups of Christians in Rome who weren't quite sympathetic with this particular group. We hear very occasionally about the Jews who are also settled in Rome. You have to remember that Paul wrote his Epistle to the Romans, one of the big letters of St. Paul, and St. Paul also was martyred in Rome. So there is a Jewish community in newly converted Christians and newly converted Christians among the aristocracy. But what the text manages to do is build up this sense of a growing church in the early Christian years, that very gradually they're becoming more and more established. There are people who are looking after them. Some of the popes, for instance, are offered the cemeteries of leading Roman families. So that you've heard perhaps of the catacomb of Priscilla on the Via Salaria in Rome.

Tristan (16:28)

Well, and that's a beautiful example, isn't it, Rosamund, of early Christian art in. In a tomb of a prominent noblewoman.

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (16:35)

Absolutely. And she apparently gave space for some of the early popes. So she was clearly, if not a Christian herself, certainly sympathetic towards them. And there are one or two other instances. And in fact, the life of Cornelius that I've just mentioned was also something that portrays the matron. I think she's called the Matrona, certain Lady Lucina. So, at the request of a certain Lady Lucina, Cornelius took up the bodies of the apostles Peter and Paul. So presumably she was paying for it. That's what I mean by the frustration. We've got all these kind of presumptions or assumptions or speculations that we have to build into our interpretation of text, of what's going on. And very, very occasionally we get clues that they are actually trying to keep their own records. There are one or two references to the act of the martyrs. And we hear that the Pope Julius, who actually is not until the 4th century, had notaries and a system of administration within the papacy. So you get a sense of the very, very early Christian community, has a leader, gathers people round himself, is able to pass on the leadership to a designated heir, which is what Peter does to Linus Cleitus and then Clemens and thereafter. The election or the choice of the pope falls to somebody within that little group of clergy. And very, very gradually you find that they get themselves better organized. There are so many of them. They have to divide Rome into the seven regions under the seven deacons. They have little churches that are built, and we do have documentary and archaeological evidence of some of these very, very early churches, buildings not just the ones that were made out of people's houses such as Giovanni and Paolo. If you've ever been to Rome, there's a wonderful little Christian dormus again with beautiful wall paintings. But gradually they started to build purpose built churches and then these grow. They have to have staff. So there's a very steady growth and a sense in which if there is any opposition, it's gradually seeing that it's not going actually to have much success. But I think that we need to remember when we're thinking about the development of Rome in the very early years with the different religions of what it might be like, let's say in 19th century England, when you've got all the different church denominations, Catholics beginning to cling on non conformist chapels, the Wesleyans, the Anglicans, the high Anglicans, the low Anglicans. There's just hints here and there of the Liba pontificalis of this range of religious opinion. But the Liber Pontificalis wants us to think that this is all absolutely clear with no breaks, no dissension. Everything is beautifully organized and as it were, inexorable from the very beginning.

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Tristan (21:04)

Hi there, I'm Dan, host of Dan Snow's history podcast. I can imagine. On these dark winter nights, all you want to do is curl up with a cup of tea and get lost in an amazing story. Well, I can help you with that. Twice a week I tell you the most dramatic and extraordinary stories from history with details I can guarantee you never heard before. Feel the frostbite of that grisly Failed American invasion of Canada in the dead of winter. Imagine every clash and blow at the Battle of Bosworth. Follow Eleanor of Aquitaine rather than powerful women in the medieval world as she goes on crusade to the holy land. With 300 handmaidens in tow, she leads her own army. Everyone goes gaga for Eleanor and trace the voyage of the first Vikings as they arrive on Iceland's lonely shores. For the best historical stories to get lost in, check out Dan Snow's history. It's like this line of succession all the way from Peter at the beginning, Rosamund, that leads me into what I was going to ask next with these various achievements that are given in the Liber Pontificales to these various popes early on, particularly, as you said, when it's the time that non Christian emperors are ruling Rome and these Christians are in a minority and may well be split up as well. When you look at the Liba Pontificalus and how it lays this all out, how difficult is it to sort fact from fiction? Can we believe all the achievements that they label to certain popes from this far back in time?

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (22:52)

Well, one of the great problems for historians is distinguishing fact from. From fiction all the way through. And the idea that something is absolutely certain is, I think, mostly an illusion. Even when you have an archive, your archive's been carefully constructed with selection of material to provide the impression to posterity that you want. You just think about the discussion there was when a lot of the national archive went digitized. So when we can ascertain it from an independent source, we are more confident in the information we're getting from the Liba Pontificalis. On the other hand, one also has to think of history writing and the professional attitude towards history writing which the 6th century writers had inherited and which they had known as they were being educated themselves. Their model is the tradition of Roman history writing in the form of serial biography, which we have got from authors such as Eutropius and earlier than that, suetonius, where suetonius, 12 caesars. We know perfectly well that Suetonius is telling us factual material about those 12 emperors from Caesar through to the end of the Flavians. But what we also know is that he's embroidering and adding, or perhaps repeating lurid gossip or lurid stories to make it into a good story. But there is a core, and I think that is something that we can then apply, that historians are capable of embroidering and adding stories. They're sometimes guilty of adding in lovely anecdotes simply because they make the story Much more entertaining, even if we can't be certain that that really is how things were. But on the other hand, they are committed to a chronological core and aware that there are certain things, such as consular dates, decrees, certain statements, that are something that one can rely on a bit more. Now, having said that, there is one element at least, which one can use as an example of the way in which a history can be created, which may not be completely reliable, at least not in that order. So I'm referring to the history of the liturgy. And at what stage do you get the Gloria introduced into the Mass? At what stage is it customary to stand for the Gospel? At what stage do you have the certain Mass? At what stage is the Agnus DEI introduced? Now, some of that chronology is clearer because it comes later, but in the very early years, we have pope after pope being credited with particular stages of the development of the Mass. Now, we know the Mass was like that by the time we see it, because texts survived, but not until the mostly 8th century in fact. But the actual chronological order, and whether that particular pope really did that is not so clear. So they create a history of the liturgy which works. But on the other hand, some of it is probably extrapolated fictions, fictionalized in a way, so we've got a representation of it which may not be completely true, even though the outcome is not in doubt. And I think it's possible that some of the other elements, the decrees of the Church, some things which actually we can correlate with canon law, where we know that certain things were established certainly by the 4th century, but before that, it is more difficult to know whether we've got things in the right order or. Or whether that was just when it was introduced, or maybe 50 years later.

Tristan (27:02)

Well, let's go into the stories of a few early popes that I have on my list to kind of go a bit. We'll go chronologically as well. And I've got Peter, then we'll do Sylvester, and hopefully we'll get to Leo as well. But let's start with St. Peter. So, Rosamund, he is the first pope, as he mentioned, an apostle, a disciple of Jesus, his rock. But how does Peter end up in Rome? Do we have a number of sources which actually tell us about the story of Peter when he reaches Rome and becomes the first bishop?

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (27:34)

Yes and no, I think, is probably the answer to that. We have the story in Acts, and Peter escapes. It's the famous escape, and then he is recorded in the Liber Pontic Ficharlus as having been in Antioch before he came to Rome. That's it. But in the third or fourth century, there was something called the actor of Peter put together, which filled in the blanks. And the blanks may well not be fiction, or they may be fiction. And we get little hints of the actor of Peter actually preserved in the life that's recorded in the Liber Pontificalis. They're using the act of Peter in some way. And we are told that Peter the apostle and Prince of apostles, that's the word that's often used. Princeps Apostolorum and Antiochene, the son of John, from the village of Bethesda in the province of Galilee, the brother of Andrew. Well, that's straight out of the Gospels. First occupied the episcopal cathedra at Antioch for seven years. And the indication of that there's a certain tradition in Antioch too as well. But of course, in Acts we are told that everybody dispersed after the Holy Ghost and they learned how to speak in tongues and they all are sent to teach everywhere. So the tradition of the scattering of the Christian community is very, very strong. In the early Christian church, you have letters that survive from the first and second centuries, Paul's letters being a prime example, where he is writing to different communities all over the Mediterranean, advising them on their conduct and teaching them the faith. Well, Peter can be presumed to have been part of that. And of course, it's not very nice in Palestine anymore, and especially not after Tycer's center. He's already had to escape. He's basically a refugee. So then he went to Rome when Nero was Caesar, and that's all we're told. And there he occupied the episcopal Cathedral for 25 years, two months, three days. And the length of time is wonky. It doesn't work. He was bishop in the time of Tiberius Caesar, Gaius Tiberius Claudius and Nero, so that's a contradiction. And then he wrote two epistles called Catholic and Mark's Gospel. So what this fills us in on is some of the stories that are coming out about Simon Magus and the construction of Mark's Gospel. And it's one of the traditions that Mark actually sat at Peter's feet and took dictation and that the Gospel of Mark is actually Peter. Later. This is what is in the Liber Pontificale. Peter was the complete source of the four Gospels. When he was questioned, Peter confirmed them by his testimony. Now, whether or not he did that, it is actually fascinating when you try and think of how are the Christians going to record the very earliest years. They need Somehow to make records, they're passing it on word of mouth of how Christ taught them them. They're preaching to everybody. But there's obviously an impulse that they should write this down, they should have a written record. How are they going to do it? Can they get it verified by eyewitnesses? And Peter therefore, is cast in the role of an eyewitness dictating to Mark. And not only that, it's actually impossible for him to have confirmed the text of the other three gospels. The. Because the chronology won't work.

Tristan (31:21)

They hadn't been written yet.

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (31:22)

They're not written yet, exactly. But Mark is thought to be really, really early. And there are some very early manuscripts from the 9th century which record earlier readings. Where actually this mark in the position of some kind of, I don't know, not quite a godson, that's anachronistic. But a very close relationship with Peter is mentioned. But it is fascinating that they want the person who becomes the bishop of Rome and the pope to be the one that confirms the content of the Gospels. So it's linking the Derwent of Christianity with the popes from the very beginning in lots of different ways. Not just Christ, but also this written testimony and how it's recorded. And then it goes on to say it's another interesting interjection by the authors, whether in Greek, Hebrew or Latin, these Gospels are in agreement and it was by Peter's testimony that they were confirmed. So again, we've got this interesting verification and acknowledgement that the three languages, Latin, Greek and Hebrew, are also being verified. And after that, do you think it is.

Tristan (32:32)

Sorry, Rosamund. So do you think it is possible then, that Mark did create his Gospel in the presence of Peter in Rome? It's possible, it's possible, yes. Which is fascinating.

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (32:44)

The account then continues and it's he ordained two bishops, Linus and Cletus, and they are actually there as his supporters. And it sort of says that. But then they are recorded in subsequent papal lists as the next two popes. But then when we get to Clement number four, and I'll come back to the rest of Pisa's life in a moment when we get to Clement number four, Clement is recorded as Roman and bishop in the time of Galba and Vespasian. But on Peter's instruction, Clement undertook the pontificate for governing the Church, as the cathedra had been handed down and entrusted to him, Peter, by the Lord Jesus Christ. You will find in the letter written to James by Clement. And James is in Jerusalem and is the Brother of Christ, how the Church was entrusted to him by Peter. And we do have that letter. So it's another piece of very, very early construction of the purity of the succession. Right. Well, then we go back to the life of Peter and we get this great long story about Simon Magus.

Tristan (33:55)

Yes. Who is this figure of Simon Magus who also has a big part in the story of Peter when he's in Rome?

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (34:03)

Simagus is presented as a kind of magician. He's obviously a baddie. But Simon and Peter are portrayed in the Liber Pontificalis as having debates, both between themselves, presumably with somebody listening, but also before the Emperor Nero and other people. And what it tells us is that Simon was using magical tricks and deceptions to scatter those whom Peter had gathered into Christ's faith. So it's a sort of anti Christian figure. We don't know much more about him except that he is portrayed as somebody who is malevolent, who is heretical. And when we get later by that, I mean fourth, fifth century catalogues of heretics, Simon is always the first one. So the people who follow Simon Magus are heretics, but if they're exactly Christian heretics, it's really not clear anyway, their disputes lasted a long time. Because what happens is that there is some kind of major debate and it's not included in the Liba Pontificalis, but in the Actor of Petri we have the debate where Peter actually challenges Simon to a contest. And there's. I'm just trying to remember the details of it. Somebody tries to fly and falls to the ground and breaks his leg. Perhaps it's Simon who breaks his leg. I really can't remember now. I'd have to look it up or everybody else can run off and read up the story of Simon Magus. But whatever the case, it is proved that Simon simply cannot have the power of God behind him. He's just not a good thing. He's been proved to be a malevolent influence, to be telling lies and deceiving. So Peter is basically coming out as the champion. There are also one or two hints in the act of Peter. And actually you can pick it up from some exegesis about Peter in the Gospels and that Peter had been married and had a daughter. Whatever the case, by the time we get to the 8th century, there are some excavations at one of the cemeteries in Rome of Nereus and Achilleus and they find a tomb with an inscription on it which is very mutilated and it looks as if it is the daughter of Peter. That's in that tomb. So they immediately assume that this must be the daughter of St Peter, as recorded in all these ancient texts, and this is Saint Petronilla. So Petronilla is then exhumed and taken to the little mausoleum beside, which is now a little chapel beside the then St. Peter's Basilica and ceremonially reburied. And she becomes actually the patron saint of the French and the Franks at that stage. But it's an instance of where little hints in an older text can then get revived and extrapolated in much later ones.

Tristan (37:21)

It's so interesting, Rosamund. I could ask so many more questions about Peter, but I think we'll move on to the next Pope on the list. But before we get there, we should cover the story of what ultimately happens to him. So he's the first leader of the Christians in Rome at the time of the Emperor Nero. But how does Peter's story end? What is this?

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (37:43)

Peter is martyred. We aren't actually told very, very much in detail about it, but we are told exactly where he was actually killed in the Nero arena on the Vatican hill. There used to be an obelisk in that arena where Caesar was supposed ashes, was supposed to be in Julius Caesar's ashes. And that obelisk in the 16th century was moved to the front of the new St. Peter's Basilica. Now, it may be confusing to mention old basilica and new. What happened in the 4th century is that when Constantine became Christian, which is what we're about to get to when we talk about Sylvester, he had a huge new basilica built. And how they built it was to fill in an entire cemetery with rubble to make a platform and put The Church of St. Peter on top, just beside the arena of Nero, where they had had games and where Peter had been crucified. So that is the site of Peter's crucifixion. But as we've got this confusing story from the third century about the movement of, of the burial of Peter, what I think we have to imagine is that it's very, very unlikely when Peter was crucified, that anybody could do anything other than simply retrieve his body and bury it somewhere. This is not a rich community. And there's no indication that he was buried anywhere grand at all. He was taken out to the place where a lot of people were buried, out on the Via Appia, because according to Roman law, you had to be buried outside the city. You should not be buried in the city because that created all kinds of difficult relationships between the living and the dead. And it was also forbidden to be buried at night. So a lot of this probably had to be done in secret that he was taken away and his remains were revered. But a memory that that's where he was survived and also Paul as well because Paul was executed out on the Via Ostia and he too was buried out on the Via Appia very close to Peter and those two were then moved back to burial places on the places of their deaths as distinct from their original burials. So the old St. Peter's then marks this place.

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Tristan (41:16)

And is it also the story that Peter was crucified upside down? I don't. Is that mentioned in the Liv of Pontificales?

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (41:22)

It's a story and it's repeated from the 4th century onwards. How accurate it is at the time, I don't know.

Tristan (41:29)

Well, let's go on to that next name you mentioned Pope Sylvester. And we are going ahead quite a few. I think we're going ahead 33 popes or so from the time of Peter. But we almost. This feels another important one to talk about because it's the time of a great pope. So Rosamund, fill us in. I mean what's been the situation for these early bishops of Rome up to the time of Pope Sylvester?

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (41:52)

Well, up to the time of Pope Sylvester the popes have been living, as I said before, in Rome, which has been ruled, not always in person or in actual presence, physical presence by pagan Roman emperors. And some of the time these emperors were very, very aggressive towards Christians and other times they were fairly tolerant. The two emperors that were most vicious in persecuting Christians were Decius and then Diocletian and Diocletian is just before Constantine so that they. A lot of them are martyred. There are various nasty stories about punishments and difficulties that different bishops have. Some of the time there doesn't seem to be major problems, but an awful lot of the Popes before Sylvester number 34, are in fact martyred. The Christian community is often quite beleaguered, but other times they do have some support. So it relates back to what we were talking about before, of different communities and different religious sympathies. And sometimes people are more tolerant of religious difference than at others. But when we get to Sylvester, we have various conflicting stories about the actual role Sylvester played in Constantine's conversion. According to the Liber Pontificalis, of course, Sylvester converted Constantine, of course, no doubt at all. But it's not actually very clear because Sylvester had been exiled, troubled by the initial persecutions under the predecessors. And it simply says he baptized Constantine, doesn't say he preached to him and converted him. We get that from other versions, the Life of Constantine itself written by Eusebius and other Christian authors, writers. But what we are told is that once he had baptized Constantine and also the Lord cured Constantine from leprosy, which is also in the Pontificalis, slightly later edition. And it is also alleged that it was Constantine who had been persecuting Sylvester until he suddenly saw the light and converted to Christianity. And the story of that is linked up with his battles against Maximian and fighting for the control of the Roman Empire and control of Rome.

Tristan (44:37)

Oh, Maxentius. Yes. The Battle of the Milvian Bridge and so on. Yes, they're all similar names, I know.

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (44:42)

Yes, yes. Sorry, that's my slip. Anyway, so then we have Sylvester, who is a Roman. He became bishop in the time of Constantine. We have him building up his own church in Rome. Then there's a great long list of the gifts that he gave. An account of the decree. It actually credits Sylvester with convening the Synod of Nicaea. Other texts want it to be Constantine who was convening the Nicaea Synod. That, of course, is tremendously important in the development of Christian doctrine. But all it says is that they expounded the faith at Nicaea. This is the Liba Pontificalis version, and condemned all the heretics, Arius, Photinus, Sabellius and their followers. So it doesn't mention a creed or anything. Then we have Sylvester convening a synod in Rome itself, and there's a great long list of all the kinds of things that he decided the church should do. So this is the first extended description of decrees on the part of the Bishop of Rome. We've had references to. He issued a little decree, often about something to do with liturgy, as we've already discussed, this is very, very much longer. And then chapter nine onwards. And it's one of the longest lives in the early part of the Liba Pontificalis, then has the list of Constantine's gifts. Church after church that Constantine established, all the gifts that he gave. So if we have the Constantinian Basilica, which is what we now know as St. John Lateran, okay, he adorned them. And there's silver, there's five foot statues, there's lamps, crowns, patterns, candlesticks, chalices, chandeliers, and goodness knows what else. And then great long list of estates also. So what we have in this life is the first big long statement of the way the wealth of the Church gets built up with estates not just in Rome, not just in Italy, but actually really further aboard. There are some listed as in the Middle east and in Africa as well. And this becomes something that the later lives built on because you then have more churches being founded, more estates being granted. And you can see that the Church is now for the first time, and the Bishop of Rome is now for the first time becoming somebody with some property and some substance. And he then gets a staff and I guess secular power, not quite at this stage. I mean, Constantine is still the emperor, but when Constantinople gets founded by the emperor, the emperor then moves and you actually don't have a resident emperor in Rome. And you begin to find that actually quite a lot of the local, certainly associations of power are between the bishop and the secular authorities. It's not really until. Well, actually with Leo too about to talk about, you're beginning to get a sense that power is actually devolving onto the bishops.

Tristan (48:04)

And do we very much get a sense that this is with Constantine's patronage and what follows him? This is the beginning of Rome's transformation into a Christian city, or as you said, at least you know, that increase in the prominence and power of the bishops of Rome going forward, of the

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (48:21)

popes going forward, it really begins a transformation of the topography of the city because the center of gravity is being shifted and you're also getting a whole lot of new buildings establishing themselves. But the big change before that of course was the Aurelian walls in the third century. Because when the Emperor Aurelian actually built those walls, he was demolishing great tracts and buildings. He just built the wall. It's a bit like the. Is it the HS2?

Tristan (48:57)

HS2, okay.

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (48:58)

Just demolishing everything in its wake. And I don't think some people did get compensation, but that was one big change, these massive walls being built. But what you get with these huge basilicas, I mean, if you just think about it, in the early 4th century, with Constantine and Sylvester, what then gets built is the Church of St Peter, St John Lateran, the Lateran Baptistery. After the built. I'm just whistling through the list. The Basilica St. Paul outside the walls, the Caesaurian palace, which is the church of Santa Croce. The church to the martyr, St. Lawrence on the Via Tibutina, that's St. Lawrence, San Lorenzo, Fiori Lamora. Then the Basilica of the Martyr, Saint Marcelina, Saint Peter, and then there's big church put up in Ostia, there's a big church in the city of Albano, there's another big church built in Capua. So essentially you're beginning to get massive changes in the directions and the rhythm of a city. And when you add the liturgy into that, just imagine it if on Christmas Day you're getting a procession that sets up from the Lateran Basilica, goes down to Santa Maria Maggiore, and then goes all the way across the city to St. Peter's with horses and clergy and incense and singing. This is a very, very different kind of thing. But what you have is the Christian church and the Christian buildings are settling into the already existing Roman city. But very gradually some of the buildings are taken over. Actually, not that many. It's mostly new buildings, but some of the old ones, perhaps they're crumbling and their material is used. But very, very gradually you're getting this transformation. And the other thing that's happening is that more and more saints are being honored. So you get basilicas in their honor. And gradually the city is becoming a city which is oriented towards where the churches are and where the saints are. Having said that, if you look at an late 8th century itinerary of a pilgrim who comes to Rome, we have it in a 9th century manuscript. It's organized like a guidebook, so that you have 11 routes, walking routes. So you set out from, let's say, the gate of St. Peter, and on the left you will see this, on the right you will see that this person is just as interested in imperial monuments as he is in Christian churches. So there's still an awful lot of the old imperial city left. The Forum and major landmarks, Coliseum, Arch of Titus, Arch of Constantine and so forth, Trajan's Column. But definitely, I think the. From Sylvester onwards, you can see this topographical transformation.

Tristan (52:14)

Okay, well, let's go on to the last of the popes that we're going to talk about in detail. Pope Leo I now Rosamund. So how much further are we going on in time with the. I guess, yeah, Reign of Pope Leo I. And what happens in the meantime? So how do we get from Sylvester to Leo I?

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (52:31)

Well, first question, Leo is the middle of the fifth century, so we're a good century and a bit later. In the meantime, in terms of history, we have Constantine well established in Constantinople and there is developing a split really between the east and western empires. So there's an emperor in the east based on Constantinople, an emperor in the west, sometimes based in Rome, but often, sometimes also in Trier, sometimes in Milan and sometimes in Ravenna. So it's not always in Rome, but actually during Leo's time there is for some of that you've also got the very beginnings of the settlement within the empire of new federate troops who are Germanic troops. So people in Bandal Africa, you've got Huns beginning to cause problems over in the east and Leo has to deal with them. And you have also very, very strong developments of the Christian church in Spain and in Gaul and not probably in Britain just a bit, but Britain is a region we know very, very much less about in the fifth century. So within Rome itself, the Christian church according to the liba pontificalis is flourishing. And you've got bishop after bishop building more organizing, more liturgy, building saint shrines, opening up the catacombs, all kinds of things like this.

Tristan (54:18)

And so with Leo, interestingly you mentioned the Huns because I feel this is a part of his story, isn't it? So when he becomes the new bishop of Rome, the new pope, how powerful is he? What are some of his big life achievements, as it were?

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (54:34)

Leo's mostly famous in terms the Christian Church because he made a very, very clear declaration of orthodox Christianity Christology on the relationship of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost within the Trinity. He also wrote a great many sermons and letters, so he's particularly famous for that, that. But he was also quite clearly prominent as an advisor and he was asked to go on an embassy to the Huns on behalf of the Romans to try and persuade Attila to leave them in peace. It doesn't say he wasn't successful. He says he delivered the whole of Italy from the page rule of the enemy.

Tristan (55:26)

I just love the story because it's the story of a pope of a bishop of Rome who, you know, at this time is actually sent to the court of Attila the Hun because of his importance and seems to be successful.

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (55:39)

Well, some people say he actually could speak a bit of Hunnic or whatever language was, but this is, I think, embroidery. It's not in this particular text but on the Other hand, we've got a lot of archives. And the interesting thing is that the author writing it was very, very clear that he had lots of evidence. Again, the blessed Archbishop Leo dispatched many letters on the faith which are kept today in the archive. So he frequently confirmed the Synod of Chalcedon in his letters. 12 letters to the Emperor Marcion, 13 to the Emperor Leo, 9 to Bishop Flavian of Constantinople, to the bishop throughout the East. In these letters, he confirmed the synod's faith. So this chap has seen them all, he's absolutely confirming it. And he also gives a great long description of the Synod of Chalcedon. So this is somebody who is very clear headed about what he believes and is very, very good at communicating it, and obviously has a considerable amount of authority and Persona, so persuades people that he can be trusted and is very persuasive, so obviously a good person to send off to Attila.

Tristan (56:54)

And is it very much the case in the Liber Pontificales that as you get to the time of popes like Leo, do the biographies almost get longer and longer because they have more importance in this Roman world?

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (57:06)

Well, quite possibly. It's possible also that you've got more information, so they've more got.

Tristan (57:12)

There you go.

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (57:12)

Of course, the ledgers are in more detail because you get longer lists of donations and gifts as well. It's also, I think, what the author is trying to persuade you, you need to remember about each particular pope. So sometimes you might get a very, very short life of somebody who you think, well, he's living, surely he must be really important by then. But either they don't have much to say about him, or they simply think it's actually not fitting in with their main purpose, which is to indicate that the Pope is the one who's maintaining orthodox Christianity, who is organizing the Church, who is the ruler of the church, and is the person actually now who is dominant within Rome itself.

Tristan (58:00)

Rosamund, it's an absolutely astonishing work and I love how we've used it to explore the story of the first popes today. Is there anything else you'd like to mention about the earliest popes before we completely wrap up?

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (58:15)

I think one thing one could say is that there are traces of them around Rome in inscriptions and in the buildings they built, perhaps not much earlier than the 4th century, but just occasionally you'll be lucky and can find some trace of them, especially in the underneath of St. Peter's Basilica, which was replaced. The old one was pulled down in the 16th century and they put the other one on top. Not as beautiful, I fear. But I think if anyone's going to Rome, they should go to all these very, very early basilicas and think about the context in which they were built and decorated and the catacombs beneath as well.

Tristan (58:56)

I'm guessing to get more of a sense of that early Christian Roman community.

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (58:59)

Yes. I mean, a good early catacomb would be out at sant' Agnese, which is quite a small one. Or go out to the Via Appia catacombs and San Sebastiano. You really do get a scent of the early Christian there. And there is in fact the crypt of the early popes in that catacomb related to San Sebastiano, which one can visit too. And that would be well worth visiting.

Tristan (59:25)

Rosamund, you've been absolutely wonderful. Wonderful. It just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.

Professor Rosamund McKitterick (59:30)

No, it's been a pleasure. Thank you, Tristan.

Tristan (59:36)

Well, there you go. There was Professor Rosamund McKitterick talking you through the story of the first Pope's early Christianity in Rome and the Liber Pontificales. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Thank you for listening. Please follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favor if you'd be kind enough to leave us a rating as well. Well, we'd really appreciate that. Don't forget, you can also sign up to History hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week. Sign up@historyhit.com subscribe. That's all from me. I'll see you in the next episode.

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