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- [00:00]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Ever wondered why the Romans were defeated in the Teutoburg Forest? What secrets lie buried in prehistoric Ireland? Or what made Alexander truly great? With a subscription to History Hit, you can explore our ancient past alongside the world's leading historians and archaeologists. You'll also unlock hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a brand new release every single week covering everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com subscribe
- [00:33]
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- [00:52]
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- [01:54]
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- [01:56]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
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vacation rental that's loved for all the right reasons.
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Ugh.
- [02:00]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
I love my VRBO for the location. Good reason.
- [02:03]
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I feel the Love Book a VRBO
- [02:07]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
that's loved by guests if you know you've Erbo.
- [02:26]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
3,000 years ago and the late Bronze Age world of the near east is awash with remarkable powers. You have the Babylonians and the Assyrians in Mesopotamia, the Mycenaeans in Greece, the Minoans in Crete, the thriving kingdom of Egypt along the River Nile and in Central Anatolia, modern day Turkiye was another power, a kingdom that had risen to become one of the major players of the late Bronze Age, the Hittites. Now we know them as The Hittites, because of their language, the oldest recorded Indo European language in the world. A vast wealth of their documents have survived, giving us this fascinating insight into who the Hittites were and how they ruled the their empire. An empire that at its height stretched from Syria to potentially as far west as Troy. The Hittites ruled over a multi ethnic empire. They themselves appear to have migrated into Anatolia during the earlier Bronze Age. But when and from where exactly we're not exactly sure. It's debated. But that is one of many fascinating parts of the Hittite story that we're covering today with our guest, Dr. Elena Daveci, Associate professor at the University of Turin. Elena, it is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.
- [03:56]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Hi, thank you very much for the
- [03:57]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
invitation and to give us a wonderful introduction to the Hittites. It's about time we covered the story of the Hittites on the ancients. So do we have a sense from the surviving material that they came into Anatolia from elsewhere, that they weren't originally from Anatolia? Is that the sense we're getting?
- [04:17]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah, well, that's mainly because of the language they spoke, which belonged to the Indo European family, but is not one of the local Anatolian languages. We know of other languages that are associated with groups of people who probably were originally there before they came. But the impression, I mean, of course, it's a history made of many conflicts and wars, but the impression is that they did not, say, took over Anatolia brutally, but arrived and integrated also in a way with the local population.
- [04:54]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Yes, which makes sense. And cast aside this idea that they come in and kill everyone and then there's no local population left as it was.
- [05:00]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah, no, no, no, no, that's not the case. We don't know exactly where they came from. Some have suggested between more or less the Caspian and the Black Sea, probably following trade routes. But without the sources, written sources telling us the story, it's difficult to know. And what we see is that there were, I mean, from sources coming from Syria, from the third millennium already, that there were already people with Hittite names or Indo European names, but they started writing later than other Mesopotamian or ancient Near Eastern cultures.
- [05:39]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Well, you mentioned sources there, Elena, and so that particular source from Syria and Mesopotamia. But what types of sources do we have surviving to learn about the Hittites and what we know about them today?
- [05:49]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah, well, we have actually thousands of cuneiform tablets, so clay tablets written mostly in the cuneiform script.
- [05:58]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Wow.
- [05:58]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
From the Hittite capital, Hattusa and Atusha. Is nowadays a small city village 160 km east of Ankara in Turkey. The archaeologists found the royal archives, temple archives, and really in thousands of tablets. So that's the biggest discovery, textual discovery from Hittite site. But other Hittite cities also yielded textual sources. And also the archives from Syrian kingdoms that at a certain point were controlled by the Hittites can contribute to reconstruct the history of the Hittite kingdom. And also, and even the Amarna letters from Egypt.
- [06:45]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
So it's a lot of documents, a lot of correspondence. And you mentioned that amazing archive from Hattusha, which we are certainly going to delve into. It almost feels like we did an episode several months ago on the library of Ashurbanipal Nineveh. So it feels similar the amount of information we're going to garner from those surviving tablets. But before we get to that, Elena, a bit more on the whole structure of the Hittite state. When the Hittites have come into Anatolia and they've established themselves in the region, I mean, how do they rule? Should we be thinking of Hittite kings at the top?
- [07:17]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Absolutely. The Hittite kingdom was a monarchy, basically, and the king was the highest politically military, judicial and religious authority. So, I mean, the king was the highest authority of the state in all aspects. And of course, I mean, it wasn't ruling alone either. Other members of the royal family, even the queen, had an important function, especially in religious matters. But not only, I mean, some queens were very active also in what we could call foreign affairs nowadays. And of course, the heir to the throne, princes and other dignitaries, and especially, I mean, this might be something that has been, say, inherited by the Hittite kingdom from the earliest phases of its history. At the beginning, it was a very small kingdom and it had to negotiate with other local powers. And especially in the very early phases, the power was not necessarily transmitted only within one family, but it could be, let's say, decided that it was, let's say the next king would come from another family of a powerful family of the region. Then the Hittites become the most important family, let's say the most important kingdom. And then the power tends to remain within the dynasty.
- [08:46]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Right. So within that dynasty, but we need to imagine also other kind of prominent noble families, factions at court. So potentially sometimes, can we imagine that there were pretty violent struggles for power? It wasn't always smooth successions.
- [09:01]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
No, no, no, it wasn't always smooth. And for some moments of Ittait history, we know quite well that things didn't go smoothly and we had fights for power within the royal family, kings would depose the predecessor. And people dying at the tight court and conspiracies. That's something that happened very often, not only, of course, in the dead kingdom. It's history of Mesopotamian courts, more or less.
- [09:31]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
But it's great. And that one of the things that I think attracts so many people to the Bronze Age is the fact that you have like all of these great stories surviving, like kind of conspiracies of plots from the documents. I mean, do we have any surviving examples of a great conspiracy or plot in the Hittite kingdom of one figure trying to rise to power?
- [09:52]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Oh, yeah. When one actually managed to rise to power, it was King Hattusili iii and his predecessor was his nephew, and he managed to rule for a few years. And then Hattusili. Yeah, to power arose. To power and he was. So basically, Hattusiri was his uncle.
- [10:13]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
The uncle, yes, the scheming uncle.
- [10:15]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then his nephew went to, well, ran away, went to. Into exile and probably was for a while at the Egyptian court. That's where he sought refuge.
- [10:29]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Right. So Hattusili wrestles power from his young nephew. The nephew flees and Hattusili is able to rule in his stead. And that's just one of one of the plots, one of the conspiracy, one of the stories of a Hittite ruler gaining power that we have surviving.
- [10:42]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Absolutely. I mean, ATU City was afterwards a very successful king, and also he ruled for a very long time, is the one who signed a famous peace treaty with Egypt with Ramses ii. And actually the time after this treaty was signed, and it's corresponds more or less with the time of Hattusida's reign has been dubbed the Pax Hititica because, I mean, finally, Egypt and the Hittites were the. The biggest powers in say, Western Asia, Anatolia, Syria, the Levant, and Egypt, after decades of fighting each other, managed to make peace.
- [11:24]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
It's a great story that. And I think they have a copy of it at the United nations headquarters, often dubbed like the oldest known peace treaty in the world, Hattusili and Ramesses the Great. So we have the kings at the top, Elena, and you have these powerful noble families around. What else do we know about the social structure, the social hierarchy of the Hittite kingdom, of the people who are often overshadowed by the surviving records, everyday people.
- [11:49]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
What we know, of course, depends on the sources. And most of the sources from Hattusa and the other Hittite archives deal mainly to a large degree with religion and either description, organization of Religious festivals, rituals, and broadly speaking, religion. And those give us a lot of details about religious life, not necessarily so much about people. But you have, I mean, I don't know how many thousands of people mentioned in the sources. And since we had mainly official archives from either the court or temples, the people we see are mainly people dealing with the court in some ways, either members of the royal families or dignitaries, members of the army. And you can reconstruct the hierarchy among these people, courtiers and dignitaries, messengers. You have, very often priests, of course. So, I mean, what is difficult sometimes is to distinguish one people from another, because we have a lot of namesakes, and so sometimes you're not sure whether someone called in a certain name is always the same person across different sources.
- [13:15]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Do we also get, like, intellectuals? Are they looking at the stars like these other Bronze Age powers, like astronomers as well, in the surviving records?
- [13:23]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah, that's something we don't know very well for the Hittite world. I mean, we have, of course, they were interested in that and also concerned with ominous signs. So we have mentions of eclipses, for instance. But, for instance, that is something we know from historical sources, from the annals of some kings. And, I mean, there is a lot of texts about divination and different divinatory techniques, but less astronomy than what you know from, let's say, later archives and from Mesopotamia.
- [14:01]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
So you mentioned earlier how the Hittite kingdom has got its capital, Hattusa. So we should be imagining a kingdom that does have these urban centers, these cities, and presumably these people that are being mentioned in the surviving archives are living in those cities near the royal family. So do we have any indication at all about the silent majority, the farmers, the everyday people who are living outside of the city walls and. And living off the land?
- [14:26]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah, yeah. Well, now we have lists of workers or mentions of different types of either farmers. I mean, the Italian economy was based on agriculture and livestock. It was the basin, the most important sector. But also, of course, what you could call the secondary production, for instance, textile industry. That's, I mean, the traditional economy of a Mesopotamian kingdom. So we have mentions of different types of artisans, like potters. So you have names and professions. We know that the Hittite countryside was, let's say, dotted by villages because there are so many toponyms in the Hittite sources. I mean, of course, most of the times it's difficult, if not impossible, to associate it with an archaeological site. But Hattusa isn't the only Hittite site that has been excavated, and royal family and the king and the royal family didn't only live in Hattusa, they had other royal residences and at certain point the capital was even moved to the south of Anatolia for a while.
- [15:41]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
So we can imagine almost not. Not an itinerant, but the king and the royal family going around the kingdom doing their duties, as it was in that central Anatolian region.
- [15:52]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Exactly. And one of the important duties was taking part in religious festivities. The king being also the high priest of the state with the queen and other members of the royal family or the court would basically travel through the kingdom to take part into these celebrations, religious celebrations that could last weeks. And of course, in this way they were present on the territory and at the same time they would take care of other duties.
- [16:23]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
What exactly that makes. Do you think that actually the Hittite royal family, in the grand scale of things, they were actually pretty visible for everyday people in the Hittite world, for farmers, for shepherds and so on. If they're hearing that they're going to be attending certain festivals around. Around the kingdom in that area.
- [16:43]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah, in those kind of situations. Yes. And we know from. Because as I said, many texts describe this festivals. We know that there were dances on these occasions, of course, I mean, religious hobbies that involved music and dance and singers. And that was a kind of a way to stage also the power of the king and to show their power not only to celebrate the gods. And the king would also spend and invest a lot into taking care of temples and offerings. So they depended to larger, to large degree to. From the kings and from the state.
- [17:29]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Right, so. So these kind of events, these big ceremonies where people will gather. Yeah, lots of music, lots of celebrations, lots of decorations, very lavish. But also. Yeah, to honor the gods, but also, I guess giving out of donations to everyday people who are there as well, kind of bread and circuses. Once again, that idea of the king at the top, but also someone keeping on the right side of the everyday people.
- [17:52]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah, somehow. And I mean, I think those were the moments where the king was more visible, as you were saying, not necessarily in the Hittite capital, where there is the citadel with the royal palace and other buildings related to the administration and otherwise. In the low town of Hattusa there were a lot of temples and we assumed that other noble families didn't necessarily live all in the capital. So the capital is quite big. The city walls cover like 7km or something like that. And it hasn't been excavated extensively yet. But probably other noble families lived around the city, not necessarily in the city, in the capital next to the king,
- [18:39]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
let's say, since lots of archaeological work has been done at Hattusha. So do we actually know from what you were saying there, Elena, do we know quite a lot about the layout of this big Hittite city?
- [18:51]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah, it has been excavated since the beginning of the 20th century. Wow. The excavations at Attusa have been going on for a while now. The first mission was German mission and still is excavated by the German Archaeological Institute, of course, now with Turkish colleagues. So they work there every year and they expose temples and other buildings belonging to the citadel. So the royal palace and other administrative buildings. I would say it's easier in a way to excavate at Hattusa and some other Anatolian sites compared to, let's say, southern Mesopotamia, because they built a lot with the stone. So at least the plan of many buildings is relatively easy to recognize. And even now, if you visit Hattusa, you could easily recognize the shape of buildings. The shape of the city is determined by, of course, the morphology of the site, which is quite rocky with different levels. So that's why you have a sort of acropolis or a citadel, a royal citadel, and then the low town and these walls that were defensive walls, of course, with important gates that gave access to the town and other structures of the Hittite kingdom. The Hittite territory, especially religious structures, were open air sanctuaries. Again, kind of using the morphology of the landscape of the territory. So using creeks and stone walls that would be then decorated with reliefs and they would also build structures next to it. But somehow kind of using the nature, natural elements that were then monumentalized.
- [20:53]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Right. So kind of a beautiful open air area becomes a sacred site, like. Like sacred groves and the. Like that idea to understand. Yes. And also you mentioned that what I found really interesting is why the archaeology is so good. Surviving from Hattusa, like. Yes, in Mesopotamia, mud brick buildings that survive. But further north in Anatolia, with the Hittites, they're building their foundations out of stone. And the stone is more durable than mud brick over that time. And so that's why you have more of the layout of place like Hattusha compared to Ur or Uruk or somewhere like that in Euphrates. This episode is sponsored by Herobred. As the days get longer and warmer, my days are getting busier, much busier. So when it comes to food, I'm thinking about meals that are quick and easy to prepare, but still meet my nutrition goals. And now that's why I have been into herobread. From simple sandwiches that make meal planning easy to baked pasta dishes. I'm staying healthy without spending loads of time preparing meals. What I really like is the texture. Hero bread is soft and fluffy in a way that feels familiar and honestly, you'd never know how much nutrition is packed in there from the taste alone. HeroBread has 0 to 5 grams net carbs, 0 grams of sugar and 11 to 32 grams of fibre depending on the product, plus options like bread, tortillas, buns, bagels and noodles. So whether I'm making a breakfast bagel, a lunch wrap or a comforting dinner, it just makes meals easier. It's a simple swap that fits real life. Herobred is offering 10% off your order, so go to Hero Code and use Code Ancients at checkout. That's a N C I E N t S at H E R O co.
- [22:55]
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- [23:32]
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- [24:34]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
In a world where swords were sharp
- [24:37]
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and hygiene was actually probably better than you.
- [24:40]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
You think it is.
- [24:41]
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Two fearless historians, me, Matt Lewis, and
- [24:44]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
me, Dr. Eleanor Yanaga, dive head first into the mud, blood and very strange customs of the Middle Ages.
- [24:51]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
So for plagues, crusades and Viking raids, and plenty of other things that don't rhyme, subscribe to Gone Medieval from History hit wherever you get your podcast. First of all, on those open air sanctuaries, someone might think of the word a paradise. Or the great gardens of the Bronze Age in Assyria, Babylon, hanging gardens, for instance. Can we imagine that the Hittites were also very invested in the idea of those open, beautiful garden like spaces?
- [25:36]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Hmm. Garden like. No, I mean, what they often these open air sanctuaries had ponds and kind of fountains. So that was another natural, natural, natural beauty that were built in some cases. I mean, they were not, let's say natural ponds, but they would build kind of fountains next to these sanctuaries. So water played an important role in their, let's say, Celtic activities and cultic spaces.
- [26:06]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
And we've mentioned words like rituals, cults, temples. So it begs the question, do we know much about Hittite religion, about the types of gods that they worshiped?
- [26:17]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah, we know a lot because indeed many sources talk about religion and gods are mentioned basically everywhere. There is an expression that you find in Thai text calling them the thousandth God of the Hittite country.
- [26:31]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
The thousand gods, did you say? Yeah, the thousand God.
- [26:34]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we know that some were the major gods, the most important gods were a divine solar goddess, the sun God, Varina, and then the storm God. So those were say the most important gods of the Hittite pantheon. But the Hittites tend to integrate gods from the regions, so they come into contact from Anatolia and even other countries. So that's why the pantheon becomes very big. And the thousand gods of the Hittites, and especially for instance in the treaties, you have very long lists of gods from the Hittite pantheon. And then they also include gods of the counterpart with whom they conclude the treaty, were summoned at the end of the treaty as witnesses to the treaty. So and the gods were those who would guarantee that the treaty was respected and punish those who wouldn't respect the treaty. So and then there, for instance, you have very long lists of gods from different cities in Anatolia. And that gives you an idea of how big and diverse was the pantheon.
- [27:59]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
No wonder they start saying that they have a thousand gods. And it's also so interesting what you're saying, Elena there with the goddess of the sun, the God of storms, being like the chief deities. And going back to what we mentioned earlier about what you saying, how the Hittites, they come in from elsewhere, they're not removing the local population, it's integration. So I guess, could you potentially imagine, maybe this is just theory, but the Hittites, when they come in, they have the storm God, they have the sun goddess, and then they integrate all of these local gods, deities into their pantheon as time goes on.
- [28:31]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah. The sun goddess was probably, especially the sun goddess of arena, which is the hypothesis of the sun goddess, which is venerated by the Hittites, which is the most important goddess of the Italian pantheon, was probably a local cult. And I mean, the sun God, the storm God, these are all natural elements. And that's in a way universal. Of course. I mean, the Sam God is very important also in Syria, even in Mesopotamia. So it's not, let's say, a prerogative of the Hittite pantheon. Then each cultural civilization would give it a different name and would have slightly different features. But that's something shared by these populations.
- [29:19]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Understood. And do we have any sense, any idea of the rituals around these deities? Should we be thinking of sacrifices and
- [29:27]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
offerings being the centrally we know about the libations, so that was of course, part of the ritual. And also the king and the queen performing this ritual, especially for the most important goddess of the country.
- [29:41]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Going back to what you were saying earlier about the royal family having important religious duties at the same time.
- [29:46]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah. And that's also part of not only Hittite, but the Mesopotamian idea of kingship depending from the gods and needing a divine support and favor. So you would be very careful in taking care of the gods properly.
- [30:07]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Well, let's get towards that archive, but before we arrive at those archives and those documents, if anyone types in Hattusha today, you mentioned the walls, but perhaps the most iconic photo is of that particular gate which has those lion statues either side. So do we know much about the importance of lions to the Hittites and
- [30:28]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
this particular structure, the lions, I mean, the lion was important because it's a symbol of kingship, is sometimes mentioned in the text as a metaphor, an animal symbolism for the king. So in that sense, I mean, having lions represented is in a way a representation of kingship. Then you have the other main gates with human figure that is usually understood as a king or as a representation of the king, not necessarily specific one. And then the Sphinx gates. So, yeah, the iconography of the Sphinx is widespread, especially in the Levant and in the area that came in contact with Egypt.
- [31:14]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Ah, so a lion gate, a king gate and a sphinx gate. Ah, okay. And so if we go up to the palace, to the citadel, was that where this archive, this incredible archive was discovered?
- [31:26]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Not all of them. I mean, some come from temples, especially the main temple, it is called Temple one with the labels given to by the archaeologists. The thing is, many of these texts, especially the biggest discoveries, date to the very first campaigns at that time, as it happened in also many other sites of Mesopotamia, the archaeologists were not as careful as we would like them to be to record the exact fine spot of the tablets. So sometimes, I mean, especially in later excavations, they would still find fragments of tablets that were unearthed in previous excavations, excavations in previous years in the, say, dump of the earlier excavations. So in many cases we know that the tablet comes from Temple 1, for instance, but not exactly where it was kept in the temple. Assuming that it would have been possible to understand it from the archaeological excavation, these information are often missing. For Snoha, it's very different. I mean, archaeologists started working in much more careful way. But the first campaigns were not recorded that.
- [32:52]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Well, the first campaigns is in when the Hittites first come into Anatolia. Is that what I was meaning?
- [32:56]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
No, no, no, sorry. The first archaeological campaigns.
- [32:59]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Oh, the first archaeological.
- [33:00]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
At the beginning of the archaeological investigations
- [33:03]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
of Hattusa in the early 20th century.
- [33:06]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Exactly, exactly.
- [33:07]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Got it. Understood. Well, let's have a look at some of the, the contents and that have been discovered in this archive. I mean, first of all, regarding documents that talk about the Hittite state a bit more and its structure, because have they revealed quite a lot about Hittite laws, about their legal code?
- [33:25]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
The Hittites are one of the few, let's say, cultures of the ancient who wrote low code. Yeah, yeah, we have a low code with different versions of it. So it was rewritten and changed a bit over time. And, well, it's not our only source about Italy law and judicial administration, but it is an important source and it's phrased in a way similar to the more famous Hammurabi code, where all the norms are phrased as hypothetical sentences. If this and this happen, then this will be the consequence, the punishment and so on.
- [34:11]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
A law code.
- [34:12]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
That's how most law codes from Mesopotamia are phrased. And that's also the case with the Hittite laws. As also in other cases, they cover different aspects of a type life from what we would now call them, let's say family law, civil law. But it isn't, let's say that's the reason why we try to avoid using the word code to refer to these ancient collections of laws, because it isn't as systematic as our modern law codes.
- [34:49]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Is there anything similar in that law code, in the. Well, sorry, I won't say law code then. Is there anything similar in those Hittite laws to an eye for an eye or, you know, the classic thing that people think about with Hammurabi.
- [35:00]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah, kind of. But you see some differences in the administration of justice. And this is something that, for instance, you find also in a letter by Hittite king, actually, again, Atusiri iii, writing to a Babylonian king who was complaining about some Babylonian merchants being killed in the Hittite territory. And Hatu city would answer no. I mean, in the Hittite territory, we don't even kill murder as a punishment. So it's highly unlikely that they would kill merchants. Yeah, I mean, Hittites tend to use often fines.
- [35:43]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
No, no, no. But, but, but I understand. So with Hittite laws, is it very much a death penalty? A death punishment is not something you see. It's more. It's more fines or some other type of punishment for. Okay, wrongdoing. And. But you mentioned there also, which leads us on nicely to correspondence with other powers in the Bronze Age. We've talked with your good friend Dr. Amanda, we've talked with your good friend Dr. Amanda Podani in the past about these kind of brotherhood of kings and how they interact with each other. And so were the Hittites very much part of this? Did they have a lot of correspondence with neighboring kings, whether that's in Babylonia or in Egypt or elsewhere?
- [36:25]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the time when the Hittite kingdom becomes what some call an empire in the late 14th century and then through the 13th century was a time when the ancient near east was divided among great powers. So and they were in contact with each other, and they also fostered this contacts very much through the exchange of letters, for instance. And so the exchange of messengers that went together with the exchange of goods and gifts, but also of experts, for instance, and of princesses.
- [37:03]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Princesses.
- [37:03]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Ah, okay. Yeah, yeah. Because a way to maintain a good relationship or at least to try to build and consolidate alliances where interdynastic marriages, so we know of Italy, princesses were given to, for instance, the pharaoh, but also to also to the small kings, so subordinate kings, because that was seen as a way to guarantee that the next generation, so the heir to the throne being born to Hittite princess, would be raised and Hittite culture educated to the Hittite language and traditions. And that would be likely a More loyal vassal. So would be a way to guarantee that the next generation of subordinate ruler would be loyal to the Hittite kingdom.
- [38:01]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
This is strengthening of alliances and stability of these empires.
- [38:06]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
And also the Hittite kings would marry foreign.
- [38:09]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Did they.
- [38:10]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
It would go both ways.
- [38:12]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
And there's cases of Egyptian princesses going to the Hittite kings and being married to a Hittite king as well. Or is it the other way around?
- [38:18]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Never, never, never. Egyptian princesses never leave Egypt.
- [38:23]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Right. So they were saying like, yes, we will take a Hittite princess, but you're not having one of ours.
- [38:28]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Okay, yeah, yeah, There is. There's a famous letter, I don't know, perhaps Amanda quoted it or mentioned it by a Babylonian king writing to the pharaoh and complaining about the fact that he would not give an Egyptian princess in marriage to him. And it's funny because it goes on saying, well, I mean, just send me a woman as long as she's pretty. Who would know that she's not a princess? Gosh, he didn't get not even a nice looking woman from Egypt.
- [39:02]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
It gives you an insight into that kind of diplomatic nature of these. These correspondences that the Hittites were very much part of. I mean, how did. From the archive we have from Hattusha Elena, how did Hittite kings, how did they correspond with foreign kings? How did they. They talk with them in these documents?
- [39:20]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Well, we have a pretty large dossier of letters of the correspondence between Ramses II and Atusid iii. And also the Queen Duhepa, the Hittite queen, she was also corresponding with Ramses II because that was in the wake of the Kadesh battle, when the two kingdoms were trying to come to good terms. And so they were somehow, let's say, handling and in a way literally bargaining the dowry of the Hittite princesses who would marry Ramses ii. And at the same time defining the terms of the alliance. And what I always find interesting in these letters is that if you think of. I assume I never read a letter between two presidents of two modern states nowadays, how they phrase their correspondence. But I imagine it always being very official. At least the official letters they write to each other. But these kings were addressing very different issues and sometimes also being very kind of rude in a way, but. And also, yeah, very, very frankly speaking to each other and trying to do the best that they could and get the best they could from this contact, from this interaction with other kingdoms.
- [40:42]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
And what language are they using in these tablets when they're exchanging these sometimes quite abrupt, quite rude messages with each other?
- [40:50]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Although Hittite was the official language of the Hittite state, these letters were written in Akkadian. Akkadian was used as the lingua franca, you would say, to correspond among kingdoms and people whose mother tongue was different, of course, but they kind of agreed at certain point. We don't know how, of course, but to use Akkadian as a common language. And Akkadian written in Babylonia, in Assyria, in Egypt, or in the Hittite kingdom, was a bit different because often, especially in these regions where it wasn't the original language of the scribes, and you can see a lot of influence and interference of their mother tongue, but they were still, let's say, good enough to understand each other.
- [41:47]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Right. So the Hittite scribes serving the Hittite king and queen, they have to learn this, this lingua franca, diplomatic language, Akkadian, to interact with these other kings, which is another fascinating part. Elena, we need to explore some of these really interesting examples you've mentioned already. The one, you know, the. After the Bastard of Kadesh between the Hittites and the Egyptians, before the peace treaty, we mentioned earlier how there's the bargaining between the Hittite king and queen and Ramses the Great over the Hittite princess going to Egypt and the dowry. What other great stories are there from this archive that you have a particular love of that you'd love to tell us?
- [42:25]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
One letter I like to read for myself and also with the students is a very long letter written by Joseph III to the Babylonian king. And that's also because my other big the area of research are the Kassites, the dynasty ruling Babylonia at this time. So the other Greek kings of the time. And we have this very long letter. Don't have so many letters between Hatti and Babylonia from this period. But this one is very long and it gives us a lot of information about also the time before this letter was written. So they often refers to events and facts that took place earlier. And so they often are very important sources for us to reconstruct the history of these kingdoms or their relationships. And in this letter, at the city, who must have been already, say, quite old, certainly not at the beginning of his reign, is writing to the Babylonian king is much younger. And altusida refers to the good relationships he had with the father of the current Babylonian king, probably also quoting passages from a treaty that we don't have. I mean, despite the thousands of tablets found at Hattusa, we should always account for a lot of missing evidence. And sometimes the texts we have are Clearer evidence for what we are missing because they refer to texts that were. Were not discovered. And it's unlikely that we'll be discovered one day. So he's quoting passages from what seemed to be a treaty of an alliance between the Hittites and the Babylonians and is complaining about the fact that a vice, sort of vizier probably at the Babylonian court was very. Yeah. Unfriendly towards Hattusili while the Babylonian king was still very young. Probably. So this vizier was probably running the. The kingdom for him while he was still young. And he was very unfriendly toward the Hittites.
- [44:47]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
So he's complaining about the past regent of Babylon that like he was. He was being rude to me, like I should have been treated better.
- [44:55]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. We must still have the tablets I sent to your father and even to this regent. And so go and ask your scribes to read them to you. Because of course they were not able to write and read. They had someone else doing it for them. Oh, yes, you mentioned it. Yeah. It's a nice fascinating window you open into the interaction between these kingdoms. And then the letter goes on, for instance, mentioning this issue with merchants being killed in Italy territory. And merchants were very important, of course. I mean, they were working for the state in a way. I mean, there were state merchants and kings were very. Let's say they tried to make sure that they could do their business in a safe way. So we often find them in the correspondence kings trying to deal with problems that the merchant experience in the other
- [46:02]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
king's territory, which completely makes sense. As if. As they're the ones who are crossing the borders quite a lot to trade the goods and to spread far and wide.
- [46:09]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah. And then the same letter, it's really very long and it addresses several topics.
- [46:16]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Lots of issues.
- [46:16]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yes, Yeah, a lot of issues. And one is the fate of Babylonian physician was sent to the Hittite court at a certain point. And that was part of these exchanges of experts, for instance. So we know also of Egyptian physicians being sent to the Egyptian. To the Hittite court.
- [46:40]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Right, okay.
- [46:41]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
And this Babylonian physician was sent to the Hittite court. From what we understand from Hattusili's reply to some complaint by the Babylonian king, this physician must have died soon after he reached Hattusa. And so the Hattusili III is saying it's not coming back because he died. I mean, I'm not withholding him here. And he's even mentioning that some other physician and ritualistic were still at the Hittite capital and they were Staying on their own free will. They were not held back by the Hittite king. And one even married the Hittite woman had his house in Hattusham. So they simply didn't want to go back.
- [47:36]
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- [49:12]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
I love that particular story. So the young Babylonian king, or maybe the regent before, sent to Hatasilli iii, one of their prized physicians, gonna say, you know, you're an ally, going to send you our prized physician to look after you. Then shady circumstances, this physician dies in Hattusha. And this letter we have surviving. Is Hattuselli basically saying, yeah, about that, sorry, he's not coming back.
- [49:39]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Exactly. Exactly. No. But he's also saying that he did his best to heal him and when he died he did all the mourning rites and he's sending back his servants with the gifts he had given to the physician to justifying the situation. But he really seems not to be guilty. I mean, and this physician, this particular physician, we are, we're very lucky because it's mentioned also in sources from Babylonia and it must have been already relatively old when it traveled to Hattusa. And it was a long travel, so.
- [50:14]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
So maybe not. Yeah, not too suspicious circumstances then? In those cases, yes.
- [50:20]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
No, not necessarily suspicious, but the Fact that he is addressing this topic in the letter, and it's a pretty long paragraph, tells us something about the value these physicians, these experts had at the courts where they were working.
- [50:37]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
And, Elena, do these letters that have been found in the archive at Hattusha, do they continue for many, many generations? Do you see many different kings and queens sending letters so that you can almost create a timeline of all of these diplomatic endeavors that went ahead that were sent out from the Hittite capital and were received there, too?
- [50:58]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah, I mean, letters concentrate in the 13th century, 14th century a bit. But we know about other Hittite kings through other types of sources. We have historiographic texts, annals telling the deeds of other kings. We have edicts, we have the treaties. So we are able to reconstruct the sequence of Hittite kings pretty well. It's often difficult to know how long each king reigned. That's something. To establish an exact chronology of the dynasty and of each king is pretty difficult. And altogether, I mean, we have sources about Hittite kings from the 17th century until the end of the 13th century or even early 12th century.
- [51:45]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
I've got in my notes the name, which I'll always struggle to say, but I have to say it anyway. Suppiluliuuma.
- [51:52]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah, Suppiluliuma.
- [51:53]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Wow, what a name. He's one of those kings, isn't he?
- [51:56]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah. Yeah. Well, he's the one who managed to transform, in a. Also in a stable way, the Hittite kingdom into an empire, because he managed to conquer Syria and annex it to the Hittite kingdom by defeating the kingdom of Mitanni. That was the big power, the great power in northern Syria and northern Mesopotamia at the time. And so is the one who. The previous Hittite kings already led military campaigns to the south into northern Syria, but never managed to annex it in a stable way.
- [52:40]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
And he's ruling at the time of that famous or infamous Egyptian pharaoh, Akhenaten, isn't he? Who seems to be very much. He's not as active in the military campaigning. He's enjoying the luxuries of his life in Egypt. So he kind of takes advantage, this Hittite king, who I'm not going to repeat the name of, to. To kind of seize land in Syria at that time. So it's interesting, isn't it, how that's helped.
- [53:02]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
This is a time where the Hittite kings were corresponding also with Akhenaten. The first was corresponding. We have a few letters from the Hittite kingdom also in the Amman archives. So the. The archive at Akhetaton that was the capital of Akhenaten at his capital.
- [53:21]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Yeah, Akhenaten's capital. Well, I can ask so many more questions, but I'm not going to because I've got a couple more areas I'd love us to explore. First off, I'd like to revisit this link with Babylon because, Elena, you mentioned that your other big interest is this Kassite dynasty, which deserves a podcast in its own right. But am I correct that Hittite Babylonian relations hadn't always been very lovey dovey and good and nice? Is there also a story that the Hittites did once sack Babylon, arguably the greatest city in ancient history?
- [53:53]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
True, that happened quite early in Hittite history. And the Hittite king Mursili the first managed to basically reach Babylon with his army. The exact data is kind of a matter of debate, depending on the chronology you use. But basically, after leading a number of successful military campaigns in northern Syria, he took advantage of, let's say, power vacuum in northern Mesopotamia. And also the fact that even the dynasty that was ruling Babylon at the time was weakened by several factors. And he reached Babylon, he sacked it, he even kidnapped local God Marduk. That didn't lead to annexation of Babylonia to the Hittite kingdom. I mean, it was too far away and impossible to rule and to control. But as a symbolic actor, certainly very, very powerful. But that's the only direct military confrontation we have between Hittites and Babylonians because the countries were too far away actually to get into conflict.
- [55:09]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
And the reason then you get Hittites fighting Egyptians is because the Egyptians want to meddle in northern Syria, hence closer to the Hittite heartlands. Right?
- [55:18]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Exactly. I mean, they had a border in common, more or less where the current border between Lebanon and Syria was running. More or less. To give you an idea. And they were both trying to expand either further south or further north. Especially the Egyptians, I would say were kind of.
- [55:38]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Absolutely. And do you think of the chariots and everything like that? I don't think we got. We'll delve into the military in this case. But chariots, they're a big part of this Hittite story. Or are they just what we associate with them today? But were actually quite a small part.
- [55:51]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
No, I mean, when the Italian army is mentioned, is made of soldiers and chariots, they go together. So yeah, that become part of warfare in Mesopotamia in the late Bronze Age.
- [56:07]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Understood? Understood. I have to ask, we have to look at west, lastly, Troy and the Hittites. Is there a connection here?
- [56:16]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah, there is. If we Agree that the ancient site of Troy, so ancient Troy corresponds to the city and the territory called Vilusa in the Hittite sources, which has been associated with Ilus, the Greek name of Troy. And that region was conquered by the Hittites. At a certain point we have a treaty between Hittite king Muatalli II and the king of Vilusa, whose name was Alexandu. This as a version of a Greek name like Alexandros. So that part of Anatolia, if Pilusa is Kiserlik. So Troy was at a certain point part of the Hittite kingdom, which stretched, I mean, at its peak from western Anatolia, the Aegean coast to eastern Anatolia, and included northern Syria and even Cyprus.
- [57:18]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Cyprus as well. Ah, so, yeah, so, so seafaring of ITS2 and so going to Troy on the western edge as a vassal state. And people get very excited when they hear Alexander, don't they? They try to associate it with Paris from the Iliad and the Trojan War. So it's a. That's another rabbit hole that I'm sure we could delve into another time. But Elena, if the Hittites end up being so powerful in Anatolia, as the Bronze Age progresses for centuries, they're one of the big powers that are interacting with the other great states of the ancient Near East. How does it all end? How does it all come tumbling down? What is the story of the end of the Hittites?
- [57:58]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah, it's a story we still don't know a lot about because at a certain point they simply leave the Hittite capital. And we don't have sources telling us what happened exactly. But Hattusa is abandoned at the beginning, let's say, of the 12th century. This is part of a crisis that invests the whole Eastern Mediterranean, not only the Hittite kingdom. The so called the Sea People are often associated with this crisis and this collapse of the late Bronze Age system of great powers. And the Sea People are groups of populations which probably came from the west, broadly speaking, and are described and even represented in Egyptian reliefs on boats. And you have this very famous relief from the time of Ramesses III from Medinetabu, showing these hordes of boats with people attacking the coast, basically. And the stories told in the Egyptian sources are very dramatic and they describe it as an invasion and a violent invasion. It's difficult to confirm this version, but it's true that many sites are abandoned more or less at this time, not only in Anatolia, and some even show traces of destruction. Another reason of this collapse, at least for the Hittite kingdom, what we See in the sources from the, the last decades of the Hittite history is that they seem to struggle to have enough cereals. And so the, the, the grain supply seemed to be.
- [59:48]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
So famine or drought or something like that.
- [59:50]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah, yeah, something like that. Something like that might have played a role as well. But another factor of weakness could have been what we mentioned at the very beginning. So struggles within the royal family. So when the uncle took over from the nephew, the third took power. This probably caused some, let's say, friction, to use an euphemism, within not only the royal family, but the court and the elite. And having the support of the elite and of the noblety was important of the aristocracy was important to be able to maintain the power. So it's probably a combination of factors that caused the collapse of the Hittite kingdom, which however is only one of the big powers that disappears from the map at this time, more or less. At the same time, even the Messenian civilization experiences a crisis, Egypt as well, Babylonia, for different reasons. It's generalized chaos.
- [61:01]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Yeah, generalized chaos. The Bronze Age collapse. Hittites don't fare too well in it.
- [61:06]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
And the fact that they all kind of. There's a very intense interaction they had in the previous centuries and decades probably made them in a way very much dependent on one another. I mean, at least the general balance. They found a domino effect.
- [61:22]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Exactly. Because they're so interlinked.
- [61:23]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
One started to fall and then it's sort of domino effect.
- [61:29]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Gosh, yes. The Hittites, they don't fare well during that time. And that's the end of their story. Although Yelena, I do see later on, once again, this is an episode in its own right. You do see the word Neo Hittites. But are they very different from the Hittites pre Bronze Age collapse? Or should we also call them Hittites?
- [61:47]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Well, they are pretty different in terms of extension, for instance of the Neoithite states or kingdom, which are smaller kingdoms in southern Anatolia and northern Syria. But they consider themselves as the heirs of the great Hittite kingdom, partly because some dynasties originally descended from, from the Hittites. And they use writing system and a language that was used also in the Hittite kingdom next to cuneiform and Hittite. The Hittites developed also a writing system that is called the Anatolian or Luvian hieroglyphic.
- [62:30]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Ah, this is the hieroglyphs of Anatolia.
- [62:32]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Okay, yeah. And that was used already at the time of the tight kingdom, also on official texts, seals for instance, and reliefs. And that becomes the Writing system and the language used in this new Italite states. So you see also a cultural and linguistic link with traditions that were already current at the time of the Ittite kingdom.
- [63:00]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Right. So hieroglyphs, they're not just Egyptian. And there's, I guess it explains, isn't it, if they saw themselves as the heirs, as the successors, why you have a suppiluliuma, the second or third, the Neo Hittites and his mad statue. If you type his name, you see this with big bulging eyes looking at you. So I guess that's. Yeah, more that continuation into the Iron Age. Slightly different, but that continuation linguistic.
- [63:26]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
And the name Hittite and the Assyrians kept calling this region Hatti.
- [63:32]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Hatti. There you go. So it continues.
- [63:34]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the Hittites didn't exist anymore, but the name kept being associated with northern Syria and part of Anatolia.
- [63:44]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Elena, there's been such fascinating conversation, a wonderful introduction to the story of the Hittites. So much more we could explore. But I guess that's also why this topic, this Bronze Age civilization, these people are so exciting today because there is that we know about them. And more has been discovered every day, week, month, year.
- [64:07]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Yeah, yeah, that's true. It's for me, never ending. It's a gold mine of stories that I like to research, of course, for. For scientific purposes, but I also like to read this text with students because they offer a lot of. A lot of information and also a lot of opportunities to discuss about different aspects about these ancient people interacted with each other.
- [64:31]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Elena, it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.
- [64:36]
Dr. Elena De Vecchi
Thank you. Thank you again.
- [64:41]
Host (possibly Dan Snow or a History Hit presenter)
Well, there you go. There was Dr. Elena De Vecchi giving you an introduction to the story of the Hittites, this remarkable Bronze Age power centered in Anatolia. I hope you enjoyed the episode. We have just scratch the surface with the story of the Hittites. There are so many different parts of their story that we can delve into in future episodes. So really want to hear from you. Really do hope you enjoyed the episode. Let us know your thoughts. Let us know if you want more episodes on the Hittites in the future. But in the meantime, thank you for listening to this episode. If you're enjoying the Ancients so far, please make sure that you're following the show, whether that be on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us. You'll be doing us a big favor. If you'd also be kind enough to leave us a rating too. We'd really appreciate it. Really helps us out. Now lastly, don't forget you can also sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week. Sign up@historyhit.com subscribe. That's all from me. I'll see you in the next episode.
- [65:49]
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