Loading summary
Transcript185 lines
- [00:00]
Tristan Hughes
Ever wondered why the Romans were defeated in the Teutoburg Forest? What secrets lie buried in prehistoric Ireland? Or what made Alexander truly great? With a subscription to History Hit, you can explore our ancient past alongside the world's leading historians and archaeologists. You'll also unlock hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a brand new release every single week covering everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com subscribe
- [00:32]
Hayden
howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan Fellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fan Girls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.
- [00:40]
Stephen
And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball. But you can call me the Smash Daddy.
- [00:44]
Hayden
And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Stephen here has not read Mistborn before.
- [00:53]
Stephen
That's right.
- [00:53]
Tristan Hughes
Hey.
- [00:54]
Dr. Campbell Price
Hey.
- [00:54]
Stephen
So each week you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.
- [00:58]
Hayden
And along along the way we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.
- [01:05]
Stephen
News flash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday and you can find Fantasy Fanfellas wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:13]
Instagram Teen Accounts Announcer
Instagram teen accounts have automatic protections for what teens see and who can contact them. Plus time management tools. And Instagram will continue adding built in safety features to help create age appropriate experiences. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online@instagram.com teenaccounts.
- [01:45]
Tristan Hughes
Hello from Abu Simbel, one of the greatest Egyptian temples surviving today. I'm currently here, about 30 kilometers from from the border with Sudan. And I'm staring at four colossal statues of Ramesses ii.
- [02:01]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Of Ramesses the Great, very much him showing this image that he was divine,
- [02:07]
Tristan Hughes
that he was a great builder, and that he was the man in charge of this land of the area of what was known as Lower Nubia. It's his story that we're covering today. His rise to prominence. What do we know? Well, to talk through it all, I was delighted to interview the one and only Dr. Campbell Price from Manchester Museum.
- [02:32]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Let's go.
- [02:45]
Tristan Hughes
It's 3315 years ago and a young Egyptian prince walks through a towering monument. He is at the prestigious ancient city of Thebes in Upper Egypt, the capital of famous Pharaonic predecessors like Thutmose III and Hatshepsut. And the home of a renowned temple complex dedicated to Egypt's chief God Amun. Its name Ipetsut Karnak, the young prince, walks through the newest great building being constructed at the sanctuary, commissioned by his father, the current pharaoh. The interior is a dense forest of columns, more than a hundred in total, each over 15 metres in height, closely spaced and supporting a large roof above. With slits high up in the walls let in beams of sunlight. This great hall was to be a center of ceremonies and rituals for Amun, where only the pharaoh, his family and his closest entourage could enter. This newest sacred space for Amun is not yet complete. Decorations still need to be added. Reliefs of pharaohs, gods and offerings still need to be carved into the walls and columns. Paint still needs to be applied, but the work is underway. As the prince walks through the hall, the sounds of workmen grow louder. He exits the northern entrance and sees a great cluster of builders. They are gathered around the exterior wall, busy carving reliefs into it. The prince recognizes the scene instantly. There in the wall is is his victorious father, larger than any other figure, riding a chariot. There are countless captives bound in front of him, a river filled with crocodiles and a city under siege. The scene records his father's most recent military venture up into Syria and the great bastion of Kadesh, a city hotly contested between the Egyptians and their northern rivals, the Hittites. The campaign had proven a success. The prince's father had returned to Egypt in a stronger position, consolidating his family's new hold over the throne. Seti was his name. Pharaoh Seti I and his young son. Then, overseeing his father's achievements, being immortalized in stone, was none other than Ramesses, soon to be Pharaoh Ramesses ii. Ramesses the Great. In this episode we are going to cover this early story of Ramesses, how his family, including both his father Seti and his father before him, became pharaohs of Egypt after a period of turmoil for this Bronze Age superpower, laying the foundations for Ramesses and his extraordinary reign. A reign that included great battles, buildings and so much more. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host and this is the story of the rise of Ramesses with our guest, Dr. Campbell Price.
- [06:11]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Campbell, it is such a pleasure to have you back on the show.
- [06:13]
Dr. Campbell Price
Hello, Tristan. It's nice to be back.
- [06:15]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
And we've done episodes in the past up at your work home, Manchester Museum, and now you're down in our lovely studio in London. Indeed. And to talk about with the rise of Ramesses II first of all, and his dynasty, the 19th dynasty.
- [06:29]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes, I mean, Ramesses II is a well known household name, but it's interesting to consider how he became the Great and why people later thought he was so great.
- [06:38]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
I mean, a 66 year reign, isn't that correct? Yeah, around that time. And normally if someone says Ramses II or Ramesses the Great, you might think this is the pinnacle of ancient Egypt. This is when it's at the top of its military might, its wealth, its art and architecture. Is that a fair assessment?
- [06:56]
Dr. Campbell Price
Some would tell you, some rather uncharistable people might say well past the zenith of ancient Egypt in terms of artistic production. And there is a sense, I'm sure it'll come up as we're talking, that Ramesses II is trying to recapture a few centuries before, when Egypt was really expanding, not so much an empire, I hesitated to use the word empire, but its kind of field of influence. So he's trying to influence people and places, neighboring countries, neighboring cultures, in ways his predecessors would.
- [07:28]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
So actually he's kind of looking back to a golden age of years past in a revival time almost.
- [07:32]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah, he's got a bar, I think, in his head where he's trying to reach back to it. So, yeah, we're talking about the 1200s BCE, but you know, 1300s, 1400s, you're really getting the, for want of a better term, the imperial conquest.
- [07:45]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
And paint us a bit more of a picture, briefly, before we delve into the details, a quick picture of Ramesses the man. What we should get an idea of how we should picture him before we delve into the origins of his rule and of his family.
- [07:58]
Dr. Campbell Price
Well, as you already said, he is exceptional because he rules for 66 years, with one exception. He's probably the longest reigning Egyptian pharaoh. So given it was a dangerous job being the king of any ancient power, you must have some personal charisma and command to not be attacked, you know, rebelled against or been bumped off by your family. So I think he knows his grandfather. He follows in a fairly new dynasty, a kind of araviste group of military people, and he has 100 children.
- [08:36]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Wow, okay, so save that.
- [08:38]
Dr. Campbell Price
We'll save that till his later reign. But as a boy, he must know he's destined for greatness. That's not simply a back projection from when he becomes king, as some other pharaohs imagine, as if they'd been selected from the egg they conquered in the egg. That is something that's said of other kings. Ramesses II as a prince really does seem to be groomed for greatness. And when he gets the chance, when his father eventually dies, he really goes for it on quite a scale.
- [09:07]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
This is a Man who's royalty throughout his life, you know, he's not the man who wins a coup or anything like that.
- [09:12]
Dr. Campbell Price
No, exactly, yes, exactly. So he's to himself, he's blue blooded. But the family, they're fairly new kids on the block. Given the previous dynasty, the 18th dynasty is a long stretch of very interesting characters.
- [09:25]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Well, the 18th dynasty, that is where we need to begin. So we're going back more than a century before Ramesses Reign. And the 18th dynasty is. It is full of these incredible larger than life figures, isn't it? Tutankhamun, Hatshepsut, Nefertiti, Akhenaten. I mean paint us a picture of the 18th Dynasty, quick.
- [09:43]
Dr. Campbell Price
Oh well that's very difficult. Okay, so you get some heavy hitters early on. So you have essentially the war of liberation against the Hyksos, these northerners who have ruled Egypt and who need to be expelled. And that happens. That really heralds the beginning of the 18th dynasty, about 1500 and something BCE. And that's Ahmozi. Ahmozi. We're now calling him the second. He used to be called Ahmozi the first but because we've discovered an earlier Ahmozi, we're calling him Ahmozi the Second. Then he initiates a line of not necessarily blood relations because we get Amenhotep I, who's a son of Ahmosi, but then we get Thutmose I. So he's a real warrior king. And he not only repels foreign invasions, he doesn't just expel people like Ahmasi I, but he actively seeks to expand that field of influence, that sphere of influence of Egypt. And I think it's that that sets the precedent for Ramesses to look back
- [10:47]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
on in the whole dynasty. It's a time of kind of wealthy art and architecture, amazing structures like the obelisks, warrior kings, but also powerful queens as well, like Hatshepsut. So as you mentioned right at the start, this actually feels like the real zenith of Ancient Egypt rather than the 19th dynasty that follows.
- [11:03]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah, I think that's fair in kind of rough terms if we're thinking about success as artistic quality. And that's very subjective of course, criterion and how much actual gold there is in the treasury. So Thutmose III is an important character. He's sometimes called the Napoleon of Ancient Egypt. Expansionist. He is working in concert with his aunt, his stepmother, Hatshepsut, the female pharaoh who rules for 20 odd years by his side. Much is made of the potential rivalry. The kind of the cookie Cutter impression of the wicked stepmother, forget it. The relationship is much more complicated than that. But setting the precedent for Ramses ii, Thutmose III leaves things in pretty good condition. His son, Amenhotep ii, pretty good. By the reign of Amenhotep iii. You do get the impression that he's just sat down, just enjoying being luxurious because his forefathers have done it for him. He is not really going out doing battle. And then maybe the decadence sets in. And so his son is Amenhotep iv, better known as Akhenaten. And he is a unapologetic weirdo for an ancient Egyptian king. He kind of rips up the rulebook to an extent. And then much is made. Although I'm not sure how plausible I find this. Much is made of the fact that we have an archive from the reign of Akhenaten and the end of the reign of Amenhotep iii that talks about foreign diplomatic exchange. So you have a sense of, again, we're using modern terms which probably don't apply. A foreign office which basically has cuneiform, so called Amarna letters that talk about, you know, please, my brother. Because they're all calling the kings of the.
- [13:00]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
This brotherhood of kings is interested in
- [13:01]
Dr. Campbell Price
that Bronze Age of the Levant, of the Bronze Age, that part of the world. They are asking, you know, for the Egyptian king to send gold because gold is as plentiful as sand. You know, send me a real gold statue, a solid gold statue, not just a plated gold statue. Send me chariots, send me all the nice stuff. But there is a sense in which, and it may be typical, we don't have the other side of the dialogue, but there is a sense that the Egyptian king Akhenaten is maybe not doing as much as he could to maintain Egyptian imperial possessions. And that is important because there does seem to be a lull in Egyptian foreign influence in the Levant. And it is that ultimately that the dynasty of Ramses II seeks to re. Establish.
- [13:47]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Exactly. So this almost steady decline of the 18th Dynasty following Thutmose III, isn't it?
- [13:53]
Dr. Campbell Price
That we get to explore.
- [13:54]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
And you mentioned source material there, like those letters in cuneiform. I mean, do we have quite a rich array of source material for learning about the 18th Dynasty and the latter half of the 18th Dynasty as we get to the. To the rise ultimately of the House of Ramesses?
- [14:09]
Dr. Campbell Price
Well, we're so dependent on official proclamations which are given a flavour, shall we say, if we're being positivist, that give some kind of flavour. But they don't recount the detail anything like the way a historian would want today. But you're right that those cuneiform tablets, the Amarna letters, offer a really fascinating insight. Because these are one on one discussions. This is the queen of Egypt writes or the king of Egypt writes to their opposite number. So you get a sense of the geopolitics of the time. But it's shrouded in decorum. What is appropriate to say in certain contexts. And we only really have one side of the discussion.
- [14:57]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
So if we have, let's say, Egypt at its height under Thutmose iii, ruling an empire at that time, I mean, how big an empire should we be thinking of? And I want to ask that question first of all, because if we then fast forward to, let's say, the reign of Akhenaten so we can get a real sense of how that empire is already transforming by that pharaoh by the time of Akhenaten and Hotep iv. Yeah.
- [15:19]
Dr. Campbell Price
So purely in terms of geographical extent and again, I emphasize, I wouldn't think of it as an empire like the Roman Empire or the British Empire, but it's an area of influence. Egypt itself, it should always be stressed, is the perfect country. So Egypt, bordered naturally by the Mediterranean, by the deserts, by the cataracts to the south at Aswan, is ideal. You don't need. Egypt doesn't need to expand. It's already perfect set by the gods. But to the north, in the reign of Thutmose iii, you know, there's areas of influence up to the Euphrates. So it's a big stretch of up into what is now modern Syria and Iraq. To the south, deep into what is now Sudan. To the west, of course, there's Libya. And we'll come back to Libya because Ramesses really makes a point of that as well. And so these are the kind of the natural extents of ancient Egyptian exploitation. So they want stuff, they're not interested really in everyone believing in the Egyptian way of life. Yes, there are elite key people that pay homage to the king and send tribute. But they want stuff. They want materials, they want gold, they want access to metals, to exotic products, to people. There's exploitation of people. Of course, there are enslaved people in all of this, but maybe not quite of the character that maybe we've been led to think in scriptural sources.
- [16:57]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
And so that's at its height. I mean, so how does it decline by the time we get to Akhenaten a few decades? Is it quite a few Decades later, isn't it?
- [17:06]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah. So if we think so, Thutmose is in the 1400s, Akhenaten is the mid-1300s. So 67 to 80 years later, there is a lot of ping ponging goes on between. So if you're a kind of small state in the south of modern Syria, say, and you've got the Egyptians who claim, you know, control or some kind of nominal control of your land and want you to send tribute, that's fine. If they come and they have a military sortie and they beat you up. But then when the Egyptians withdraw back to their capital, Memphis, this will be important later. Then they're quite far away from the south of Syria.
- [17:52]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Memphis is almost the northern capital as well, isn't it?
- [17:54]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah, that's the apex of the Delta, where the Delta meets the valley in Egypt. But then if you've got the Hittites who are the north of Syria, you've got peoples to what is now modern Turkey. You've got the Assyrians more towards the West. When they come and threaten you, you'll immediately change loyalty to the person, the big bad wolf that's closer to you. So the Egyptians always had a problem about exerting influence from so far away. And maybe that led to a shift in the notional capital which was effected by the 19th Dynasty Foreign.
- [18:42]
Hayden
Howdy ho and welcome to Fantasy Fan Fellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.
- [18:50]
Stephen
And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball, but you can call me the Smash Daddy.
- [18:54]
Hayden
And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Stephen here has not read Mistborn before.
- [19:02]
Stephen
That's right.
- [19:03]
Hayden
Hey.
- [19:03]
Dr. Campbell Price
Hey.
- [19:03]
Stephen
So each week you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter and
- [19:08]
Hayden
along the will do character deep dives, Magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.
- [19:15]
Stephen
Newsflash, I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday and you can find Fantasy Fan fellows wherever you get your podcasts.
- [19:22]
Instagram Teen Accounts Announcer
Instagram teen accounts have automatic protections for what teens see and who can contact them. Plus time management tools. And Instagram will continue adding built in safety features to help create age appropriate experiences. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online@instagram.com teenaccounts.
- [19:54]
Don Wildman
What started the Civil War? What ended the conflict in Vietnam? Who was Paul Revere and did The Vikings ever reach America. I'm Don Wildman, and on American History Hit. My expert guests and I are journeying across the nation and through the years to uncover the stories that have made America. We'll visit the battlefields and debate floors where the nation was formed, meet the characters who have altered it with their touch, and count the votes that have changed the direction of our laws and leadership. Find American History Hit twice a week, every week, wherever you get your podcasts. American History Hit a podcast from History Hit.
- [20:54]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
So that's interesting. So do you therefore see as. As those decades go on in the 18th Dynasty, do you see those new powers, like the Hittites, like the Assyrians, becoming more prominent? And Egypt in contrast? You know, these rulers become a bit more obsessed with their luxuries, this idea of decadence and so on. And so Egyptian power on the. Well, the Bronze Age world stage does diminish, and the. The other powers, like the Hittites, does grow at that time.
- [21:21]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes, there's definitely a sense of the expans expansion and the kind of awakening of other powers. But you're right to say that by the reign of Amenhotep III, so again, 1300s, there is this sense of the international court. So, yeah, internationalism. It's a sign of kind of cosmopolitan life at court for the wealthy. But while people are enjoying the latest imported pottery and very fine designs and jewelry, other military things might be slipping. And that is in proportion to the ambition of other powers.
- [22:00]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Okay, so what follows? Akhenaten. It doesn't end well for Akhenaten, does it?
- [22:05]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah, you could say that. I suppose we don't know what exactly happens. Akhenaten's very experimental. The experiment backfires and they have to undo all the revolutionary.
- [22:16]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Sorry. Very briefly, this experimental stuff. I know this is another episode of so writing.
- [22:20]
Dr. Campbell Price
Well, right, so Akhenaten decides there are no gods but the sun God, a special form of the sun God. And he is the unique interlocutor with the sun God, the Aten. So that's why he changes his name from Amenhotep. The God Amun is satisfied to Akhenaten. Effective for the Aten. And then for, gosh, 15, 16, 17 years, he and his immediate successors, to a degree we're not quite sure of, espouse the worship of the Aten. And they close all the other temples. So quite apart from it just being a religious revolution, it is an economic challenge, because imagine you're the high priest of the God Amun, and the king says, nope, we're closing the temple of Karnak. Okay, then this is almost a bit
- [23:08]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
of economic self destruction at the same time.
- [23:11]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah, I mean, people have compared it to Henry VIII and monasteries and, you know, trying to wrest power from these religious institutions into the hands of the king, which I think there's a good argument that that's what Akhenaten's trying to do, but it creates all kinds of issues. Anyway, Akhenaten says he himself is going back to, well, going back, going to a new virgin site, his capital city. What we call Amarna now the city of Akhet.
- [23:39]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Hence the Amarna letters that he mentioned.
- [23:40]
Dr. Campbell Price
Exactly. So this is the source of the. The so called diplomatic correspondence in the Foreign Office. But so that settlement in Middle Egypt is the home of the king. It's where the king and the elite are going to be buried. And you get the sense that Akhenaten's really kind of sequestered himself away at Amarna and is ignoring other things. Where traditionally the king in ancient Egypt moved around, it was a peripatetic court, as in other traditions, the king moves around to keep an eye on people, to make sure that they're loyal. Who knows what else is happening in Egypt at this time, but the court is focused in middle Egypt. So you could see that the letters are arriving saying to Akhenaten, we could do with your help. If you want to maintain your presence in this part of the Levant, then please send help. And he doesn't seem to send help.
- [24:30]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
He doesn't. So alarm bells are ringing. Feels a bit of a tumultuous time inside Egypt and beyond for Egyptian influence. So what follows him? I mean, how do we get to these last big figures in the 18th Dynasty and I guess this gradual decline that follows.
- [24:46]
Dr. Campbell Price
Well, the biggest name in terms of, you know, historical cache is of course, Tutankhamun.
- [24:52]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Tutankhamun.
- [24:53]
Dr. Campbell Price
Okay, so Tutankhamun, by most accounts is the son of Akhenaten. Right. And he comes to the throne. We can be as sure as we can be sure at 9 or 10 years old. Oh dear.
- [25:03]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Wow.
- [25:04]
Dr. Campbell Price
He's a little boy. And he is being controlled by kind of revisionist politicians, for want of a better term, who want to backtrack on the revolution. And so all of this is put in the words of the boy king. I have restored the temples and where the gods, you know, abandoned and ignored Egypt. I have propitiated them and put things back to how they were. Of course, a 10 year old boy is not getting in a Chariot really? Maybe towards the end of his life, in his later teenage years, there is evidence that Tutankhamun does engage in some kind of military activity. But there must be powers, and we know there are powers, military powers that are not blood relations of the royal family who are thinking, right, we need to get some action going here to reclaim or at least to maintain some of these, again, areas of influence. I don't think it's trying to defend the empire because I think the empire, such as it was, had already frayed. It is about trying to push those trade alliances. Yeah, areas of influence like military advisors
- [26:12]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
at court kind of thing, or actual active commanders in the field.
- [26:15]
Dr. Campbell Price
Active commanders in the field. The field. And so those people who usually would be kind of subordinate advisors to the king really rise in prominence. So Ututankhamun dies. However he dies. Believe what you want. Chariot accident, malaria, killed by a hippo, whatever, we'll never know. But then he's succeeded by this kind of shadowy elder figure, the God's father, Ay, who rules for a couple of years.
- [26:44]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
It's Ay, isn't it?
- [26:45]
Dr. Campbell Price
That's how his name is, yeah. Ay or a Y E. He is very odd. And then he eventually is succeeded by an out and out military man. And this is your man, Horemheb.
- [26:58]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Now this is a very interesting figure. So what do we know about Horemheb?
- [27:02]
Dr. Campbell Price
So Horemheb comes from non royal backgrounds, as far as we can tell. He must of course, be a mover and a shaker. He's in the royal court, but he clearly, we know from the extensive preserved evidence of his tomb at Saqqara, where he built a really impressive tomb chapel to celebrate his eternal cult. He was then in charge of the military, so he says he's the chief of the, of the soldiers, the fighting men. He's also in charge of building works. And I think this is important to understand Horemheb. He is not just a military man. He's in charge of the recruits. And the recruits are guys who can equally be sent on a campaign to beat people up as they can be sent to a quarry, as they can be sent to a mine. So you're in charge not just of military personnel, but you're in charge of people. And so he's unusual. Horem Hipp is unusual because we've got statues of him where he's very proudly writing things down as a scribe. So don't think of him as a kind of, kind of meathead guy who's just a Bit of a brute, I think. He's intelligent. He's clearly someone who understands the workings of the state and who is proud of his ability as an administrator. So he really is an all rounder. And so when the throne eventually passes to him, you know, he's in charge for almost a couple of decades. He has a long reign, so he's again holding the reins of power. And he is the one who really goes back and tries to scrub out evidence of Akhenaten, or begins that process.
- [28:47]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
And he is a military usurper. So the fact that then he has a success. Oh, you took a big breath there.
- [28:54]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah. I mean, it sounds dramatic, but I don't think you're far from the truth. And so he instigates what is essentially a military couple.
- [29:02]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Yes, yes, that's what I'm thinking. And the state of the army at that time, because I can imagine almost Horemheb, if he's staged this coup, then he needs substantial support amongst the army itself. Do we know much about what the army look like at this time? Is it split around the place? Is it professional? What should we be imagining?
- [29:18]
Dr. Campbell Price
So compared to earlier periods, say the Middle Kingdom, you know, a few hundred years before, when we know there are military raids going on down into Nubia, up into the Levant, it seems that to raise an army, you basically go around and say, come on, chaps, who wants to fight? Whereas by the end of the 18th Dynasty, there is a professionalization. So you will say, I'm a charioteer, my father was a charioteer, so there must be, I hesitate to say, a military class, but there are a group of people whose ancestors have fought and done some pretty impressive things, possibly in the 18th dynasty. So, yes, I think there is a professionalization and maybe these people have been in the reign of Akhenaten, possibly sitting around with nothing to do. And you could imagine someone like Horemheb organising these people.
- [30:08]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
A charismatic figurehead.
- [30:10]
Dr. Campbell Price
Right? Yeah. And in Horemheb's first, because he has two tombs, because he becomes a pharaoh and therefore takes a tomb in the Valley of the Kings down at Thebes. But in his first tomb, he's shown, you know, engaged in things to do with military activity under Tutankhamun. So we should understand it that Tutankhamun is the nominal, the notional patron. He's sending off the troops into battle, but it's Horemheb who's actually doing it and commanding them.
- [30:41]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
He's the one who probably has the respect, more of the actual soldiers on the ground and soldiers. Why should we be thinking the chariots for the elite and then everyday Egyptian soldiers, archers or infantry with nothing, too much equipment.
- [30:54]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah. So remember we're still in the Bronze Age. You're fighting with bronze metal weapons. This is not the Iron Age. Yet in Egypt you are going into battle as a foot soldier with a shield, which is pretty important, a dagger or a sword. And an axe.
- [31:10]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Oh, an axe.
- [31:10]
Dr. Campbell Price
So you're gonna axe someone. But you should also, I guess remember that the chariot is still a fairly modern invention. It's a couple of hundred years old. And I think we think of ancient Egypt as always having used chariots, but they've come into Egypt from the north, maybe brought with the Hyksos and these wars of liberation. And those are only. Yeah, a couple of hundred years before. So Horemheb has the connections, the elite military connections with other generals, that's important. And then as you say, he probably has the loyalty of the foot soldiers, the infantry.
- [31:49]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
It's so interesting with Horemheb because so often in ancient history you might see, you know, a dynasty, a role figure be toppled by a military figure. But then so often right after that, either that military figure proves incapable of being an administrator and ruling or you see it just break out into other generals, think, actually I don't respect you as my leader anymore. I'm going to try and seize power myself. So you see a breakdown into civil war, the fracturing of kingdoms and so on. So does that make Horemheb's achievement even greater? The fact that he does reign for a long time and does prove to be quite an, it seems quite an
- [32:24]
Dr. Campbell Price
effective ruler based on the evidence, always this caveat.
- [32:28]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Good point.
- [32:29]
Dr. Campbell Price
Based on the evidence that we have, of course, the ruler is honour bound to describe themselves as the best and God given and doing everything very effectively. They're not recording negative things. But still you do get the sense that Horemheb is an effective ruler. The one thing that he lacks is an heir, a male heir.
- [32:50]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Right.
- [32:51]
Dr. Campbell Price
And this is again some responsible thinking for any ruler. If you don't have an heir, you don't have a spare, you don't have a male descendant, blood descendant. You have to make plans to make it absolutely clear who is going to be the next king because you could drop dead at any moment.
- [33:10]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Is adoption a thing at the time?
- [33:11]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes, adoption is a social practice in Egypt. It's an important social practice. So at that level, I mean it's relatively unusual that kings who have many wives don't somehow manage to produce a male heir. But Horemheb, for whatever reason, doesn't have surviving male, surviving sons. So he adopts, for want of a better term, this chap, Pa Ramessu, who is the vizier, the chatti, the kind of chief minister, but also has a military background. And he is from, we know a bit about him, his background, his father Seti, based in the, in the Eastern Nile delta. So the family hometown is known about. And so he has the great advantage of having a living son and probably a living grandson. So there is a line ready. So maybe these guys are just mates, they're just friends from the battlefield, but maybe there are other strategic, social, political reasons.
- [34:13]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
So we can presume that, I mean, Horemheb choosing his heir and Par Ramessu, you know, probably was a loyal subordinate in the close circle. But also aside from that loyalty, someone who had that family line.
- [34:28]
Dr. Campbell Price
Sure.
- [34:29]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
We don't know if he had any connection to the royal family of old
- [34:31]
Dr. Campbell Price
at all, do we? You could expect that if you didn't have a connection, you'd want there to be a connection by marrying a random princess of royal blood. That was quite effective. And it tended to be the blue blooded women who really made the king, who really confirmed the legitimacy of the line.
- [34:48]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
So is Par Ramessu kind of clue in the name? Is he the beginning of this new dynasty of the 19th Dynasty?
- [34:55]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes. And what Egyptologists call the Ramesside age, because he is as king when he becomes king for a short time, for a couple of years, and he takes the name Ramesses and he becomes Ramesses I.
- [35:07]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
He's Ramesses I, because we always hear about Ramesses ii, don't we? But we don't hear about Ramesses I. And do we know much about his reign? It's short lived, as you say. But do we know much?
- [35:15]
Dr. Campbell Price
It's short lived. He has ambition, you know, he starts a very nice tomb in the Valley of the Kings, which has to literally be cut short because he only lives a couple of years. But something about Ramesses I. So we are using these names, which are the people in question's birth names. So the parents of Ramesses I call him Pha Ramessu, which means literally he of the sun God. But his name as king, he takes on a series of names. But the names the ancient Egyptians would have known these people by is the throne name the pre gnomon, as opposed to the nomen. The noman is your birth name, what your family might call you, but the throne name for Ramesses the first is telling. So he's called men, pehti re. So that means literally the strength of the sun God is established, or establishing the strength of the sun God. So pehti means strength. And we know that the first king of the 18th Dynasty, Ahmose II, who's this military guy, he's called Nebula, so there's this reference to strength. And we know also that the family are from this part of the eastern delta in the north of Egypt, where the God Seth is the local patron.
- [36:36]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Now, who's the God Seth now?
- [36:38]
Dr. Campbell Price
Seth. We've encountered him before, you and I, but Seth is kind of the yin to the yang of Horus. So he's often described in very negative terms because he's a God of storms and he tries to do nasty things to his nephew. But he's also great of strength. The God Seth is emblematic of this kind of brute, uncontrolled, voracious strength on the battlefield. So the fact that Ramesses I takes that name, I think, is politically and religiously, the two are interconnected.
- [37:14]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
And so he originates. His family originates from the north of Egypt.
- [37:17]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes.
- [37:17]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
But when he becomes pharaoh at that time, does he have to relocate himself further south? Because you mentioned the Valley of the Kings earlier.
- [37:26]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes.
- [37:26]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Although Horemheb is buried much further north at Saqqara. But is it at that time that Luxor in ancient Thebes is the main center of Egypt?
- [37:34]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes, Though I should. Should say Horemheb's tomb is abandoned in the north because he's not really buried there because he's a king. He has artisans go and add a snake to his brow on almost all the depictions of him in his tomb at Saqqara in the north. Because he's become a king. Right. But a king in the New Kingdom of Egypt at that time cannot be buried in a mere Saqqara tomb. He's got to be buried in the royal cemetery at the Valley of the Kings.
- [38:04]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
There's a tomb of Horemheb at the
- [38:06]
Dr. Campbell Price
Valley of the Kings. At the Valley of the Kings. So Ramesses I, and this is an interesting question, unlike Akhenaten, doesn't just stay in one place at one time and stick there. He moves around. I think he starts back. Well, he continues this tradition of the peripatetic court, but there is definitely a favouring of the north.
- [38:28]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Oh, okay.
- [38:28]
Dr. Campbell Price
And it may be that Ramesses I gives his name to an incredible new settlement developed by his son Seti I and his grandson Ramses ii. And that is called PI Ramses or or per Ramses, which in ancient Egyptian means House of Ramses.
- [38:53]
Hayden
Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fanfellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.
- [39:01]
Stephen
And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball, but you can call me the Smash Daddy.
- [39:05]
Hayden
And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.
- [39:13]
Stephen
That's right.
- [39:14]
Dr. Campbell Price
Hei, hei.
- [39:15]
Stephen
So each week you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.
- [39:19]
Hayden
And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.
- [39:26]
Stephen
News flash, I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday and you can find Fantasy Fanfellas wherever you get your podcasts.
- [39:33]
Instagram Teen Accounts Announcer
Instagram teen accounts have automatic protections for what teens see and who can contact them, plus time management tools. And Instagram will continue adding built in safety features to help create age appropriate experiences. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online@instagram.com teenaccounts.
- [40:17]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
So this is why I wanted to talk about Ramses I for quite a bit because he lasts not very long at all. And yet from the surviving evidence of, you know, first his son and then Ramses the Great, you can actually see perhaps a few of the projects that he had in mind that he didn't get to live long enough to see through.
- [40:37]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah, I think that's a really good way to think about it, Tristan, because I think, well, he gives his name to 11 kings. This whole period, as I said, is called the Ramesside period. In the first Ramesses, Ramesses I must have ambition because he's chosen by Horemheb. He must be quite a dynamic guy and he must pass on at least to his son, if not to his grandson, you know, spoken instructions for what he wants to achieve.
- [41:03]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
So Ramesses the Great, his grandson, is alive at the time. He must be that Ramesses I is ruling for that.
- [41:10]
Dr. Campbell Price
I think he must be. So I think whether Ramses ii, prince, the young prince, is already anointed as the chosen successor. I mean, even the concept of the crown prince that you get in modern European monarchies, I don't think that quite applies. You don't have to be. It is notionally the eldest son, but there is internal competition and I think it is up to the reigning monarch, the king, to say, okay, you're better than him. And so there's the heir apparent may not necessarily be the eldest boy, but I'm as sure as I can be given the reign length of Seti I, that the baby young boy, Ramses ii is known to his grandfather.
- [42:02]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Interesting. Well then let's talk about Seti I. So what do we know about his reign following the death of Ramses I?
- [42:11]
Dr. Campbell Price
He gets to it pretty quickly. And by most Egyptologists estimation, Seti I really is a pretty self conscious and effective patron of the arts. He takes this very interesting name which is a throwback itself to earlier kings, Wechem Mesut, which means literally repeater of births. So literally in ancient Egyptian it means renaissance. He wants to undo a lot of the Amarna interlude. We know that he goes around restoring images of Amun and adding his own name where the name wasn't there previously. And in that he inspires his son deeply. I think there is a deep psychological thing about this. Still remember new kids on the block, Aravist dynasty, they want to make absolutely sure that their claim is solid and will last. And they do that by restoring the works of their ancestors and, and shouting about how much they've restored the works of their ancestors. And so Seti I commissions this incredible temple which still is one of my favorite sites in Egypt, at Abydos, the site in the south of Egypt, a bit north of Thebes. That's the sacred site of the ancient God Osiris. So you very easily, by building a temple there, connect yourself to this very long standing culture of the God of rebirth. And in that temple, beautifully decorated temple, there is a very significant corridor, very significant for historical reasons, because following on a tradition which itself is quite old, of celebrating previous kings, there is a scene of Seti I and his young son Ramesses reading out, declaiming, announcing, ritualizing the names of all their predecessors. And this hall of ancestors is significantly located between the abattoir and the temple offering rooms. So all the offerings of, you know, the beef have to go in front of the corridor. So you are feeding the souls of everyone named on the wall as you pass. So it's this metaphysical sense of not just celebrating. Look at all these great kings who have come before, but ensuring that their souls quite literally are sustained with offerings. By locating the offering list in this particular place, it also anchors Ramesses II in as prince.
- [44:45]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Crown prince this time we think.
- [44:47]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah, yeah, I mean really as the heir apparent. And there must be what's not uncommon in ancient Egypt a co Regency. So there is not just a crown prince, there is a nominated successor who kind of shares the throne. And maybe, you know, Seti I saw or foresaw that he wasn't gonna live a very long life. He can only be 40ish when he dies. And then Ramesses II must come to the throne Pretty young, 20 maybe.
- [45:16]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
I mean, it feels like Seti, his reign, it's a decade or so, isn't it?
- [45:20]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah, a bit more than a decade.
- [45:22]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
But yes, because Ramesses I has died so quickly, he is focused in like kind of consolidating the new dynasty, legitimising its position with those kind of images, those dedications to temples and ancestors, but also I guess military activity too. That's another important thing he has to do.
- [45:39]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes, yes, absolutely, you're right. We know this on the north wall of the outside of the main temple of Amuna, Karnak.
- [45:46]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Yes.
- [45:47]
Dr. Campbell Price
You've been there, you've stood in front. Stunning. My gosh. And often it's missed by tourists. They're impressed by the hypostyle hall and what's going on inside. But if you step outside, you see an absolutely incredible depiction of military engagements where, you know, Seti I is leading his troops into battle along the ways of Horus. So this is up northeast into the, into the Levant. And so there is again, there's a lot of trying to control these ping pong states, to try and get them back under Egyptian control. And where in some cases, especially when it comes to the Hittites, you get the impression that Seti I will let some. He picks his battles quite literally and he lets some sleeping dogs lie where maybe Prince Ramesses who may actually be involved, he may be as a teenager, physically be involved on campaign. You get the sense maybe Seti the first stops short where Ramesses II wants to continue and push further when eventually he becomes king.
- [46:56]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
It's like Philip II of Macedon and Alexander the Great. It's the dad that lays the foundations for the son's footsteps. Interesting.
- [47:03]
Dr. Campbell Price
Good analogy. Yeah.
- [47:04]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
But no, I just want to focus a bit more on that north wall of the Hypostyle Wall at Karnak, because you look at it and one of my favorite pictures, parts of it is you see a river full of crocodiles.
- [47:14]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes. Yeah. You're snapping at the poor unfortunates who've gone into the river.
- [47:18]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
This idea that the Egyptians have to cross this river, I think it's Sinai Peninsula, that area, they think it is around there to get into Syria where they're campaigning. And then I think you see another depiction of Kadesh of all places in Seti's reign. And he's besieging Kadesh at that time. It's Seti, not Ramesses.
- [47:34]
Dr. Campbell Price
Indeed. So people hear Battle of Kadesh and if they know anything about ancient warfare, they think of Ramesses ii. But the grudge with Kadesh definitely dates back to the reign of Seti I. So Kadesh is in what is now modern Syria. So it's far from Egypt. You have to. It takes several weeks to go there by foot with a big army. But that's what Seti does. He goes, he campaigns there. And this is partly a hangover of the Amarna period that those depictions are so detailed. That is an Amarna thing. You would never see that level of detail in the reign of Thutmose iii. And maybe there's something to be proven. Maybe it's Seti the first really trying to make the point that there must be something like a kind of court, war correspondent or war artist because the detail is very specific and most ancient Egyptian scenes do not reflect history as it happened and don't reflect the world as it actually is. But yeah, there are details that bring about this world in which foreigners, anyone who's unfortunate enough to be non Egyptian is in disarray and the Egyptians are successful on campaign. So the local detail, the scenes of a siege, fortifications, canals, rivers, you know, siege warfare. That does seem to ring true.
- [49:04]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
God, it's so fascinating, isn't it? And with Seti's reign, although he doesn't last very long, actually. One other thing, we mentioned Karnak there and the Hypostyle hall which we normally associate with Ramesses ii, constructed beginning under Seti or maybe even older than that, do we think?
- [49:21]
Dr. Campbell Price
I think it maybe was conceptualized all the way back under Amenhotep iii. And Seti I does the bulk of the work. So I think it's really realized by Seti I and he begins to decorate it and by the time he dies, it's half finished. And so Ramesses II completes it. But it is an absolutely astounding piece of architecture. You know, world architecture, absolutely breathtaking.
- [49:50]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
And his tomb as well, in the Valley of the Kings, it's one of the most pristine, remarkable tombs, jewel like.
- [49:55]
Dr. Campbell Price
And it's funny because Ramses II's is in real terms bigger, but is much, much less well preserved.
- [50:02]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Interesting. Well, that's Seti's reign. I mean, how successful would you argue that SETI is? Because normally it is the case that the predecessor really sets the scene for the greatness of the person that follows in several cases. Once again, Philip and Alexander. How successful do you think Seti is in the context of consolidating control and getting the 19th Dynasty really on track?
- [50:27]
Dr. Campbell Price
Oh, I think he's pretty successful. I think he, he, as you said, sets the train in motion for what he hopes is going to be a long lived dynasty. As we'll discuss maybe in the next episode, the fact that his son is so long lived may actually compromise Seti's plans. But as a military man, clearly, you know, I guess Seti, I would have remembered a time when he was not meant to be the king. You know, he was a military general, he was the son of a military general. He was someone important, but he had to prove himself amongst his colleagues. Yeah, his peers. Exactly. So he has the kind of kingship thrust upon him, you could say. So he has that genuine ingenuity where in his conscious life, Ramesses II was always a prince. So you always have that kind of the silver spoon in his mouth. So maybe his ambition is slightly different from his father's, but his father in terms of, especially in terms of architectural and artistic work, as you mentioned, the tomb in the Valley of the Kings work at Karnak, other sites as well. But the temple of Said to the first Abydos, these are just beautiful things. And I think he does instigate this Co Regency that sets the scene for Ramses ii. And when eventually Ramses II takes the throne, he says, at that Abydos temple, I arrived here and found it unfinished and I finished it in honor of his father. So he doesn't change the names? Well, he does around the ages. Perhaps he. He completes it in his own name, which is completely okay by ancient Egyptian standards. It's not that the son is trying to elbow the father out of the way, he's simply complimenting his father because kingship is timeless and none of those images of the kings look like the real people on the walls. So you can simply continue the imagery. It's not a conflict in the way we might think.
- [52:40]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
And so we get to the reign of Ramesses ii. We'll cover only the first few years as we wrap up this episode. But firstly, is there any challenger to Ramesses II's succession? If Seti's made it quite clear in his wall paintings and the reliefs that he seems to be the clear heir apparent, do we know much about the succession and whether there was any difficulty around it?
- [53:04]
Dr. Campbell Price
Well, there's an interesting set of evidence at Karnak, where there's a chap called Mehu, Mehu or Mechi, I forget, who is shown in a very prominent position in these battle reliefs. So you get the sense that this guy is the right hand man and in some of those reliefs his image is changed to being Prince Ramesses. Now, I wouldn't make too much of this. I think that's just what's appropriate to Ramesses ii. I don't think this represents another rival claimant to the throne. It may just be when the reliefs were executed. It was fitting at the time. And then as time progressed, Ramesses II really wanted to claim part of that legacy. But no, the succession seems fairly clear. As I said, there is a co Regency. And for example, that scene in the hall of ancestors at Abydos, you can see that is a product of the work of Seti I, when Seti I is still alive. So it seems that Ramesses II is the anointed heir and is accepted as such.
- [54:12]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
And how does he initially reign? What do we know about those earliest years of Ramesses II as pharaoh?
- [54:19]
Dr. Campbell Price
You get the impression, well, he has to finish off some of his dad's building stuff. But you do get that sense that he's itching to get in a chariot and go on really beat up some foreign foreigners. So, as I say, it's probably likely that he had some experience in the entourage, at least of his father. Whether he's actively out on the front lines is another question. That doesn't seem to happen later in Ramses II zone reign. But he goes, yeah, year four, year five, so early in the reign of Ramses II's long time in the throne, he goes out to Kadesh again and he wants to confirm the status of these vassal states. So these are kind of client kingdoms. Again, I resist this term empire. It's not like they're trying to turn them Egyptian. It's trying to get their loyalty, their fealty there.
- [55:12]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
It's buffer states as well, I guess. You know, buffers, vessels.
- [55:16]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah. Against a more problematic enemy, which in the early part of the reign of Ramses ii. That's the Hittites.
- [55:23]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
It's the Hittites.
- [55:24]
Dr. Campbell Price
That's like the north of Syria, even into. Yeah, modern Turkey is the seat of the Hittite empire.
- [55:32]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
So he feels he has beef, unfinished beef with Kadesh after his dad. So he goes up to Syria and is this when we get the famous battle of Kadesh?
- [55:44]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes, and it's famous because he tells us so many times he's done it, it's recorded in several temples, his mansion of millions of years, which we'll talk about separately. Karnak, Luxor, Abu Simbel. He's talking about this a lot. And so, yeah, the engagement is fascinating because we know a lot from recorded speeches. So you get this sense not just of the action as it plays out, but of the psychology of the king because there are. Well, we can tell something about the organization of the military. So you have the infantry, you have the chariots divided up into divisions and the divisions are named after gods. I don't know how common that is in the ancient world.
- [56:32]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
I can't think of any other examples that come to mind straight away. I'm sure someone will have a comment there and saying that there might be one. But no, when you think of divisions of armies, you do think of Kadesh and this description that you have, right?
- [56:46]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah. So they're named after the major gods of Egypt, Amun, Eptah, Seth, and the sun God Re. And so in the account it's very unusual. The Kadesh account is unusual because it reflects, it's unusually reflective because it allows that mistakes are made by the Egyptians. So it talks about, you know, these informants are captured and these non Egyptian informants and they say, oh, the Hittite ruler is 120.
- [57:22]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
He's far away.
- [57:22]
Dr. Campbell Price
He's really far away, leagues off. And so the Egyptians are okay with that. And so they kind of become a little complacent maybe when they're marching to make camp near Kadesh. Then they get hold of better intelligence which says that the Hittites are much closer. And the Hittites surprise, surprise attack the Egyptians when they're unprepared. And so there's this extraordinary episode in which the attack comes and it's really. The king is said to be alone. He finds himself alone. And so the drama is. And of course you can see how Ramses spins this. Basically the greatness of the king comes at the expense of the soldiers, who are usually said to be pretty good and pretty effective. No, no, they're deserters or they're disorganized. And so Ramesses personally has to fight off the Hittites, pursues them into the river, and so manages to win a kind of stalemate. So it's less bad than it could have been. I mean, imagine the king could have been captured or killed, or much worse could have happened. The Egyptians suffer, it is acknowledged, some heavy losses, but they are able to maintain the status quo. So it's a draw, basically, the Battle of Kadesh in the Hittite eyes is a success for them, but in the Egyptian eyes it's a success for the Egyptians. And Ramesses, at least early on, spins this as better to kind of keep it as it is. And then later we'll go back and regroup and in a couple of years we'll.
- [59:00]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
So he snatches a draw from the jaws of defeat.
- [59:02]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes.
- [59:03]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
And you do get a sense then, don't you, putting aside all the Ramesses own spin on it that he does later, this sense of this young rash, you know, kid, like young pharaoh, young man. Yes, yeah, young man, I know. Who wants to kind of follow in his dad's footsteps, but doesn't have the military intuition there, maybe that he's lured into a bad position, he has bad intelligence, then gets the better intelligence later and he's outwitted by this other king, by this Hittite ruler and his chariots and the like, isn't it?
- [59:32]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yeah, it's for the first time you see an Egyptian king and his opposite number, essentially the enemy, on a kind of even footing. So it almost emphasizes the scale of the challenge and so the relative success of the draw. I guess the Hittites, in terms of numbers are a big force. So to have got that stalemate is a win for Ramesses.
- [59:56]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
So how significant do you think is the result at Kadesh for Ramesses? If you look at what he does afterwards, if you take the actual military effect of it out of the picture, the fact that, okay, it is a draw, but is it ultimately a success for Ramesses because of what he then later does with that?
- [60:17]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes, because I think he can come back to Egypt. Remember, there are no. It's obvious to say, but it sounds a bit trivial. There are no smartphones, there are no photographs. The king has come back and maybe he's captured some booty from the battlefield and he says, yeah, great success, guys. You will believe whatever the returning force says. You don't have the fact checking, you don't have the counter narrative. So for Ramses to come back after God, it must be more than a year away. So the king has been away from Egypt, away from the capital, away from the palace for a long time. So for him to come back with some stuff and the story is a success enough, and then he'll just paint
- [61:04]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
that, paint those pictures of him on the walls of temples there, looking triumphant as a figure to try and reinforce that image of a successful returning king.
- [61:14]
Dr. Campbell Price
Absolutely. And I think also there is a sense of it being a stopgap because you could imagine he is still young. It's only year five, year six, you could think, right, well I'll go back and have another go in future and then I'll recarve the wall or I will achieve the success that I'm claiming on the wall as it stands.
- [61:34]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
So is it very much Kadesh and its result? This is only the beginning of Ramesses story. This is only the beginning of his reign and he's still got a lot to do, a lot to learn and a lot to show off.
- [61:47]
Dr. Campbell Price
Yes, I think he does think of it as a lesson. I mean if we can try and get into his head. But it's a start for 10. It's not the end of the story
- [61:55]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
and we'll continue that in the next episode. Campbell, as always such a pleasure to have you on the show.
- [62:00]
Dr. Campbell Price
Great, thanks.
- [62:05]
Tristan Hughes
Well, there you go. There was Dr. Campbell Price talking through the rise of Ramesses II, his father and grandfather and Horemheb and the likes before him, how it ultimately paved the way for Ramesses II to take the title of pharaoh in the early 13th century BC. I hope you enjoyed the episode.
- [62:25]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
Campbell will be back next week to
- [62:27]
Tristan Hughes
continue the story to explain more about Ramesses II's long, long reign and what followed following his death. You've got sea peoples in there and you got quite a bit of chaos, which is going to be really fun to explore. So make sure you come back for our second episode with Campbell next week. In the meantime, thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Ancients. If you enjoyed the episode, if you're
- [62:53]
Co-host (possibly Tristan Hughes or another host)
enjoying the show, then please make sure
- [62:55]
Tristan Hughes
that you are following the Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favorite. If you'd also be kind enough to leave us a rating as well. Well, we would really appreciate that. Don't forget, you can also sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week. Sign up@historyhit.com subscribe that's all from me. I'll see you in the next episode.
- [63:34]
Instagram Teen Accounts Announcer
Instagram teen accounts have automatic protections for what teens see and who can contact them. Plus time management tools. And Instagram will continue adding built in safety features to help create age appropriate experiences. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online@instagram.com teenaccounts.
- [64:04]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Shifting a little money here, a little there and hoping it all works out well with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can be a better budgeter and potentially lower your insurance bill too. You tell Progressive what you want to pay for car insurance and they'll help find you options options within your budget. Try it today@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law not available in all states.