Professor Almut Hintz (3:00)

I would say so. I would say one of the oldest, because there may be religions still being practiced of which we do not know. And a feature of Zoroastrianism is that the past lives on in the present. Very much so. It is a very ancient religion. Its roots reach back into the second third millennium BCE and even earlier. And many of the rituals and words which they recite in their ritual performances actually date from that time.

Podcast Host (3:34)

I was going to ask, is there many differences between modern Zoroastrianism and Zoroastrianism in antiquity? But it sounds like, I mean, quite a lot of it is the same.

Professor Almut Hintz (3:43)

We think so, as far as the language is concerned, which is a great guide to dating Zoroastrianism. In their ancient rituals, the Zoroastrians, the Zoroastrian priests, but also Zoroastrian lay people, in their prayers, recite texts which date back to the second millennium bce. And these are what we call the Gathas of Zarathustra and the Yasnahaptanghaiti, which is also composed in the same language. So the language is very archaic. The language of those texts which the Zoroastrians recite in ritual and in prayer, very archaic. And in fact, it's the oldest witness of any Iranian language, and it belongs to the oldest attested Indo European languages. Wow.

Podcast Host (4:37)

And what is this language?

Professor Almut Hintz (4:39)

We call it Avestan.

Podcast Host (4:41)

Avestan. Okay.

Professor Almut Hintz (4:42)

Yes, because it is the language of the Avesta, and Avesta is the name of the sacred texts of the Zoroastrians, the texts which the Zoroastrians recite aloud in prayer and in the rituals. And Avestan has survived basically only as part of those rituals and prayers. So it's the language of the Hafista.

Podcast Host (5:12)

It's amazing that that has endured to the present day, given how old a language that is and that it is practiced still. So there are still many people out there in Iran who would have. Who would know that language, who know that language.

Professor Almut Hintz (5:23)

They know the text. They know the language insofar as they know the words which they recite, and they learn these words by heart, and they recite these words aloud, so they need to be spoken. And these texts and these rituals were composed orally without the use of writing. The oldest being from the second millennium bce. We know that the dating is based on certain linguistic features in the language of the Garters, the oldest parts of the Avesta, and in particular, prehistoric sounds which linguists call Laryngeals sounds which are pronounced in the back of the throat.

Podcast Host (6:14)

And the larynx, kind of variation.

Professor Almut Hintz (6:16)

Larynx, yes. You have them in Semitic languages, these sounds? We don't have them in Indo European languages, but in prehistoric times, proto Indo European languages did have those sounds as consonants, and they could also turn into vowels. And these sounds later disappeared in all of the Indo European languages except in Hittite, where they were then found still there as consonants. And at the time the oldest texts of the Avesta were composed, those laryngeals must still have been present. We can, because in the meter, the meter of the garters tells us that they stopped two vowels to coalesce into one long vowel. And those two vowels, a plus a with a laryngeal in the middle, count as two syllables. So that is the strongest indication for their existence at the time when these texts were composed. And that cannot have been much after the middle of the second millennium bce. So that's one of the main arguments for the date, second millennium, date of the Garthas, the oldest texts.

Podcast Host (7:37)

Well, we'll explore more about those texts and what they talk about in a bit, but as we're going back to the second millennium bc, I'd like to see how far back we can go. What do we know about the origins, the roots of Zoroastrianism? Can we go back to the word Indo European?

Professor Almut Hintz (7:55)

We can go back to some extent. Thanks to comparative historical philology and linguistics, the Iranian languages are cognate with the Indo Aryan languages. Indo Aryan. These are the languages of Indo European origin spoken in the Indian subcontinent. The Indo Aryans were immigrants into the Indian subcontinent. We know that for sure? Well, pretty sure, yes. Although there are some people who think they've always been there, especially Hindu nationalists nowadays. But from an Indo Europeanist's point of view, the immigration of the Indo Aryans into India is the most probable scenario. So Iranian and Indo Aryan are sister languages of a common prehistoric ancestor, which we call Indo Iranian. And that prehistoric ancestor is not attested, hasn't survived. We have no oral or written documents of that prehistoric language from which those two branches derive. However, we can reconstruct that prehistoric ancestor to some extent by comparing the oldest surviving Iranian documents, which is the Avesta and especially the Gathas, but also the Old Persian inscriptions of the Achaemenid kings, which date from 520 BCE onwards.

Podcast Host (9:37)

A bit later on.

Professor Almut Hintz (9:37)

Yes, later on. A thousand years later than the Gata. So they are much older Garthas. So by comparing those earliest Old Iranian sources with the earliest Indo Aryan sources from the Indian subcontinent. And the oldest surviving Indo European documents from the Indian subcontinent are the Vedic hymns.

Podcast Host (10:00)

This is the Rig Veda and the like, is it?

Professor Almut Hintz (10:02)

Exactly. The Rig Veda and the other Vedas, Yajobida and the Sama Veda and the Atarva Veda, but especially the Brig Veda, which is the oldest.

Podcast Host (10:13)

And those are linked to the early Hinduism, aren't they, in the second millennium bc, Sanskrit and the like?

Professor Almut Hintz (10:18)

Yeah, absolutely. So the languages, the language of the Vedas, especially of the Rig Veda and the language of the Avesta are so similar to each other that they are like two different dialects of the same language. And you can transpose expressions in Avestan into Sanskrit. So for example, in Avestan we say Vohumanah or Vahumanach for good thought. Vahu is good and mana is thought. And in Sanskrit it's Vasu manas. So a Vedic and an Avestan speaker, they would have probably been able to understand each other. The grammar is identical. It's only some phonetic. The phonetic changes have happened in the way they pronounce the words.

Podcast Host (11:12)

So that linguistic similarity shows how Hinduism and Zoroastrianism were linked, at least linguistically, with their ancestor, I guess, indeed with.

Professor Almut Hintz (11:22)

Their common prehistoric ancestor, Indo Iranian ancestor. And that means that these two languages are genetically related. They are two sister branches of a common parent language, which is the Indo Iranian or Aryan language. And they would have shared a common language. Not only that, but also a common thought system and a common religion and a common social structure. And all of that we are trying to reconstruct on the basis of the historically attested documents, which is those are those religious hymns, because that's all that has survived, nothing else. No other texts have survived.

Podcast Host (12:07)

So like the Garthas on one side and the Rig Veda and the like on the other side. So comparing them, as you say, really interesting. I love, I know our audience loves as well talking about the linguistic side of things. So I'm really glad that we could talk about that. At the beginning of this chat you mentioned, of course, the second millennium BC with the garters. So who is it believed that Zoroastrianism begins with at that time?

Professor Almut Hintz (12:30)

Yes. So while they share this common heritage, the origins of Zoroastrianism would not reach back into the proto Indo Iranian period because we do not have a Zarathustra in the Vedic tradition. The religion must have started after the two branches split from one another. But exactly when and where the Zoroastrian religion developed, that is a question which is debated amongst scholars. We can only take indications which try, like detectives trying to find indications, traces, a smoking gun, so to say, which points us into a certain space, geographical area and a time when that might have happened. So those laryngeals, for example, are the smoking gun, which tells us it cannot have been much later than the middle of the second millennium bce, because those laryngeals were still pronounced and the garters were composed. So the composer of the garters pronounced the laryngeals, otherwise they wouldn't have prevented, because they prevented that merging of the two adjacent vowels. Then there are a number of other indicators which point to a quite early date of the beginning of the Zoroastrian religion, although that is also disputed and that is the demonization of the divers. Now, this takes us into the conceptual world of the Zoroastrian religion. And diva means God in Indo Iranian. It is the word which you also have in Latin, deus, God.

Podcast Host (14:30)

Yes, yeah.

Professor Almut Hintz (14:31)

And in English, divine. The divid is the same as div in daiva, and in Sanskrit it's deva.

Podcast Host (14:41)

So once again you see the similarities.

Professor Almut Hintz (14:42)

Between deva in Sanskrit and daiva in Avestan. And in Sanskrit, what happened is that the I became I. So they say in India, the Indo Aryans say deva, which means God in Avestan, in the Gathas, diva are the false gods who should not be worshipped. They are terrible and they are very vehemently rejected in the garters. And the demonization of the old Indo European gods is a feature which we find in the Iranian tradition only nowhere else. And innovations are major indicators for change, for cultural change. Archaisms are not so much indicators because you have just retained an old tradition. There are lots of archaisms in the Zoroastrian tradition, but what helps us with the dating are innovations.

Podcast Host (15:47)

So do we think then, just to clarify, do you think the origins of Zoroastrianism is very much linked to a belief at that time, after the split between the Indo Aryans and the Indo Iranians, of a rejection of the gods that had been worshipped previously and looking towards something else that change, as you were saying?

Professor Almut Hintz (16:06)

Absolutely. So we have the Indo Iranians, the common people, and they split into Iranians and into Indo Aryans. And the Iranians are marked by the rejection of the old gods, the divers. The divers, the old gods, all of a sudden they are bad and they are rejected. And of course, these gods do not exist on their own, but there is a whole cult related to it. There is a priesthood who have A stake in it, in the worship of the gods. So if you reject, if you tell your people these are. You are all worshiping false gods, what do the priests do? They are very upset about it because their livelihood depends on the worship of those gods. And they have been trained in worshipping those gods. So this is not a trivial thing to say that the Daewas, the gods, are wrong. You should not worship them. But that's what the garters do.

Podcast Host (17:14)

Do we have any idea who is the, I guess the prophet equivalent who is going around at that time, you know, kind of proclaiming this message that, you know, worshipping the old gods and what these priests were doing is wrong.

Professor Almut Hintz (17:28)

The only individual who is linked to this is the figure of Zarathustra. Zarathustra and the Gatas are the oldest texts which we have, and they talk exactly about this. So Zarathustra figures prominently in the Gathas. His name occurs 16 times in those hymns. There are 17 hymns altogether grouped into 5 gathas. Gatha means song, and basically a meter, the meter of a song. And these 17 hymns are grouped according to their meter into five groups of unequal length. The first group is one gatha. It consists of seven hymns. And then we have two more of four hymns each. And then we also have two of one hymn only. So these are the 17 hymns grouped into those five gathas. And in those hymns we have the name of Zarathustra 17 times. And the other name which occurs most prominently is that of Ahura Mazda.

Podcast Host (18:40)

Right? Okay, who's this?

Professor Almut Hintz (18:42)

That's the God.

Podcast Host (18:43)

Is this the God that they're saying, turn away from the old gods. This is the God you should follow. Is that the idea?

Professor Almut Hintz (18:48)

This is exactly what the garters are about, right? They talk about this. And Zarathustra talks to his God, Ahura Mazda. He has a special relationship to Ahura Mazda and Ahura Mazda talks to him. So Zarathustra asks him questions. He says, oh, tell me, Ahura Mazda, who made this world? Who keeps the stars in the sky and prevents the clouds from coming down.

Podcast Host (19:19)

From falling down the sky from falling on our heads?

Professor Almut Hintz (19:22)

Who has made this world and who has arranged the day in such a way that we get up in the morning and go to sleep in the evening? And of course, the answer is Ahura Mazda. So Ahura Mazda is seen as the creator of the cosmos, but also as the one who tells people how they should lead their lives. So they need to follow truth, which is Asha, and they need to worship Ahura master and not the divers, because the Daivas are wrong.

Podcast Host (20:02)

And do we also get a sense then? This might be too simplistic, but I have to ask, if it is focused on Ahura Mazda, is the logic then? Is this a monotheistic religion?

Professor Almut Hintz (20:14)

There's one God, only one God, which is Ahura Mazda.

Podcast Host (20:17)

Interesting.

Professor Almut Hintz (20:18)

Who is the maker of everything that is good, and what is good are his creations. And he creates everything on a spiritual level in the first instance. And out of that spiritual creation he creates the matter, the physical world, which is the world, the cosmos, which is visible and tangible. So he is that God who is wholly good and who is the creator of the world. So there is one God only. But a special feature of the Zoroastrian religion is that evil has a separate existence, right?

Podcast Host (21:08)

So they're always kind of opposing each other. You're always fighting against evil in pursuit of good, Is that the idea?

Professor Almut Hintz (21:14)

Basically, yes. In today's practice and as it then evolved, yes, but in the system as we have it in the Avesta, Ahura Mazda has no direct counterpart on the evil side. But Ahura Mazda is the father. He produces out of himself. He has. He is creative, because being good means being creative and multiplying to yourself. What is good is productive, it's fruitful and it's creative. And this capability of creating and giving life, especially life, is inside Ahura Mazda that is called Spenta Mainyu in Avestan Mainyu, it has the root man to think, which we have in English, mental, for example, this man bit is a force, a spiritual force. And spunta means life, bearing something like that. That means it has the capacity of producing life. And it is this creative life bearing force in Avesten spunter, mind you, which has a negative opposite. And that's called Angra mind you. Okay, Angra Angra means destructive, hostile. And mind you again means force. It's a destructive force which is diametrically opposed, opposed to spent. And you can even see it from the language, the words, they are symmetrically symmetrical. Spent, both are Mainu and Angra Mainyu. And Angra Mainyu is destructive. That means he wants to destroy everything that Spunta Mainyu produces. And Angra Mainyu is likewise a spiritual force. He wants to destroy on the spiritual level, but he can't really destroy the spiritual world, because in Zoroastrianism, the spiritual world is immortal, it exists. And so the destructive force is primordial. It has ever existed, always existed, and will always exist. And Ahura Mazda and his life giving force will also always exist and all the spiritual world is immortal. And this is what we call dualism in Zoroastrianism. This diametrical opposition between the life bearing force and the destructive one. So there. But you can see from the system that Ahura Mazda is on top of the life giving force, whereas the destructive force Angra Mindu has nobody on top. It's just a force, it's a blind force which wants to destroy.

Podcast Host (24:22)

So the people who come afterwards, they're very much. It's ingrained in them through this text that they need to be mindful of this destructive force whilst also paying reverence to Ahura Mazda and the light and keeping on the right track, I guess.

Professor Almut Hintz (24:36)

Absolutely. And people have to associate themselves with Ahura Mazda and not Ms. Angra Mainyu. The destructive force and human beings have a choice, which of the two to choose and they should of course choose the creative one and follow Ahura Mazda and not the destructive one.

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Podcast Host (25:54)

And so how does fire and the sacred flame come into all of this? With the garters and with those religious songs, the religious texts, the Avesta.

Professor Almut Hintz (26:03)

Yeah. Fire plays an important role already in Indo Iranian culture. We have it in the Vedic culture as well. Agni the fire, who is presented as a messenger between the human beings and the gods and probably even from Indo European times. Fire is almost a human universal. It's so important for our life, for cooking our food and for warmth in cold weather and also a source of light. So this is something which has very, very ancient roots and it continues to be treasured also in the Iranian Zoroastrian tradition and rituals developed around the fire. Already in Indo Iranian times, a ritual which is performed for the gods, for the divine beings is perceived as an act of hospitality. Right.

Podcast Host (27:05)

Okay.

Professor Almut Hintz (27:06)

So it is basically a banquet which the human beings prepare in a special space, a precinct which can be created ad hoc in the space. Also in the open air they just draw, then design a space and there they prepare a place for the divine beings and they prepare food and the priests recite Hymns to invite the divine beings to come down, be present in the ritual, enjoy the hymns and the food and the drinks which are being prepared ritually during the ceremony, and then return to their heavenly abodes. And the link between the human beings and the divine beings is created by the fire.

Podcast Host (27:59)

Right?

Professor Almut Hintz (27:59)

Okay, so this is certainly how it was in the Indo Iranian culture. And the Vedic hymns talk about this. Agni prepares a path between the human and the divine, and the gods travel on that path from their heavenly abodes down to the ritual space, and they return on it again. In Zoroastrianism, in the Zoroastrian ritual, it's a little bit different there. We know that from the Yasnahaptang Haiti, which is the text that is recited after the first gatha in the Zoroastrian core ritual, which is called the Yasna ritual, but also in the other solemn rituals which are based on the jasna. In all of these, the fire of Ahura Mazda is addressed as the one who is at a distance you there. So it's a heavenly fire of Ahura Mazda. In the later Avestan text, younger Avestan text, the fire is also addressed as the son of Ahura Mazda. It's invited to come down and be present in the ritual precinct. And this coming down of the heavenly fire of Ahura Mazda's fire happens during the recitation of Jasnah 36, which in the 72 chapter Yasnah is right in the middle of the ritual performance 36 is halfway through.

Podcast Host (29:32)

So are they songs or are they poems? Or how should we say them?

Professor Almut Hintz (29:35)

They are spoken. It's sometimes spoken passages, spoken passages in the Avestan language, I would say it's sort of. The jasnahaptanghaiti is not metrical in the sense of that the meter, the syllables are being counted, as is the case for the garters, the older garters. But it is probably more sort of a rhythmic type of recitation. And the fire then comes down and is present from then on in the ritual precinct. And the worshippers, they affirm their purity with which they approach the fire now, which has been transformed because the heavenly being is now present within the ritual precinct. And the fire is then addressed in still in Jasna 36 as the most beautiful visible form of Ahura Mazda. So Ahura Mazda himself is thought to be present in the form of the fire. And of course, the fire is light. And that's why the fire is regarded as his body, his visible form. And this is the foundation of the central role played by the fire in the Zoroastrian ritual and the call for purity, utmost purity of the performer of the ritual, but also of those who are present while this ritual is performed.

Podcast Host (31:13)

So it's so interesting once again you have the garters and you have the yasnas, like these spoken passages and how far back in time they go. And it feels like we've very much set the scene with the beliefs. But I must also ask, you mentioned earlier how Ahura Mazda is credited as the person who created the world, created everything. So it sounds like they have their, their own creation myth story. Do they also believe in an afterlife at the same time?

Professor Almut Hintz (31:38)

Yeah. So the Zoroastrians have a whole cosmology which goes from the primordial beginnings of the cosmos right to the end. And they believe that at the beginning there was certainly Ahura Mazda.

Podcast Host (31:58)

Yeah.

Professor Almut Hintz (31:59)

And his creative and the destructive forces, they have always been there.

Podcast Host (32:07)

So they are all primordial beings, they've been there from the beginning?

Professor Almut Hintz (32:11)

Absolutely. They're beginningless. And Ahura Mazda is seen as the creator of the world. But before he makes the material world, first he multiplies himself in the form of his spiritual beings, spiritual creations which embody qualities such as truth, good thought, right mindedness. And these spiritual concepts and qualities, they have negative counterparts in the evil camp, and those are thought to come from the destructive force. So the evil can multiply itself in the form of spiritual features such as the lie.

Podcast Host (33:00)

The lie, okay.

Professor Almut Hintz (33:01)

And bad thought and arrogance and other such negative forces. Greed is no end to that. All these negative forces, but they're all spiritual, they come from the mind and that's important. So the evil for Zoroastrianism exists first and foremost on the spiritual level. And all these negative forces, they are negations of positive qualities which come from Ahura Mazda. And then as a creator, Ahura Mazda produces a material world and he does so out of his spiritual creations. And that's why all these beings, this spenta min you, the creative force is life bearing the word spenta has in the past often been translated something like bounties, which embodies generosity.

Podcast Host (34:11)

Bountiful, Yes, a lot of stuff.

Professor Almut Hintz (34:14)

But what it really means is that it has the capacity of producing life.

Podcast Host (34:22)

Right.

Professor Almut Hintz (34:23)

Because this word spinta, the spit, if we look at linguistics and etymology, it corresponds to a word which we have in Greek which means this ku. It corresponds to the sp in spenta, and that means to be pregnant.

Podcast Host (34:46)

Ah, so fertility idea.

Professor Almut Hintz (34:48)

Okay. Yes. And that's what this word spunta Means and in the Greek word, I am pregnant means life bearing and producing offspring. This is the center of the meaning of this word. That's why I prefer to translate it as life bearing, because it has the capacity of producing life. And that means not only on the spiritual level, but it is capable of producing a material world. And this is what our Mazda does through his life bearing force that he produces a material world, the cosmos, the visible cosmos, which consists not only of what we see here on earth, but also the entire cosmos, all the stars, the universe. He produces this out of these spiritual beings which he makes through this benta, mind you. And this is something which the destructive force doesn't have because it can only destroy. It is incapable of producing a material world in any way, negating the it.

Podcast Host (36:04)

Can destroy, but not description.

Professor Almut Hintz (36:05)

It can only destroy, it cannot discreate.

Podcast Host (36:07)

Yeah, and also, just quickly, before we move on the afterlife idea as well, is there one very much embedded in the, in the verbal passages, totally, that.

Professor Almut Hintz (36:17)

Relates to the figure of Ahura Mazda. So ahura means Lord Mazda means we translate it often as sort of wise Lord. But this translation in no way represents what Mazda actually means. So Mazda da means to set and maz. The maz bit it again, it's formed from the root man, to think. And the maz bit contains the word which is thought. So literally, Mazda means the one who sets his thought, his thinking, and he is super intelligent and he thinks it all out. The purpose why he starts the creation at all while he multiplies himself in the spiritual creation and then makes the material cosmos. The reason why he does it, what is it? He wants to incapacitate evil, the destructive force. This destructive force, being destructive, wants to dethrone Ahura Mazda. It threatens, it poses a threat, and it wants to destroy Ahura Mazda and wants to make the light dark. And in order to prevent this from happening, Ahura Mazda springs into action and he makes a plan. So his creation has a plan from the beginning right to the end. And the plan is a way of incapacitating evil once and for all, not destroying it. You cannot destroy it. You cannot destroy Angra Mainu because he is eternal, he will always be there. But what matters for Ahura Mazda is that Angra Mainyu is incapacitated and relegated back to the place where it had come from to destroy. And so it will never ever come back again. So this then takes us into what happens at the end of time and the purpose of this world. So Rustian cosmology has a purpose, and the purpose is to incapacitate evil. And then as we go along, we can see how this is done. So Ahura Mazda then makes the material world and Angra, mind you, due to his lust to smite, as the text put it, he intrudes, he breaks. He attacks the material world, which consists of the earth, but also of the whole cosmos. He breaks into it from outside. So he is somehow, before he attacks, he's outside of the it. He comes into it and he tries to kill and to pollute and to destroy everything. And he does so. He destroys the first creations of Ahura Mazda on the earth. And he then tries also to storm the sky and to invade the sphere where Ahura Mazda dwells. But he's successful only on the earth. But then as he tries to invade the heavenly abodes where the stars are, and then the moon and the sun, and paradise is up there where Ahura Mazda dwells, the Garudomana, the house of welcome or of song. Where Ahura Mazda dwells there he cannot get because he is stopped at the Spuntamanyava stars. This is the Avestan name for a group of stars which is perceived like the Milky Way. The Milky Way which we can see in the sky. It is perceived like a protective belt, the shield. Okay, the shield. And Angra Mainyu is incapable of penetrating it because Bunta Mainyu and Angra Mainyu are completely incompatible with one another. And he is repelled there. And then according to the cosmological story, myth as we have it, both this one, both in the Avesta and in the Middle Persian texts from the Sasanian period, that means from 6, 700, but all of the Christian era.

Podcast Host (40:42)

So yeah, okay, 600, 700 A.D. or C.E.

Professor Almut Hintz (40:45)

That era. Yes, exactly. But all of that is based on ancient traditions, and some of it we have in the Abesta. And one thing which we have in the Abesta is Zarathustra was born and Sarasustra brought to humankind the weapon to fight evil successfully. Okay, and now we have the Mazda worshipping religion, the religion which focuses on the cult and worship of Mazda, Ahura Mazda, of course. And this religion which is called the Dinah Mazda Yasni Dinah is an Avestan word which means the vision. Literally. It then becomes a word for religion. You have it in Persian, Din, and the Arabs borrowed it Din. In Arabic, it is a Navistan word. And this is the weapon to fight evil, the divers and Angra Mainyu, this fight then progresses, and it culminates at the end of time with the ultimate defeat of evil. And in the Process. The Avesta calls on men and women alike to fight evil and reduce the power of evil in the world. And how do you do that? By focusing your mind on Ahura Mazda and worshipping him, having rituals performed, paying the priests of our Zara Sushtra, who are in the tradition of Zara Sushva, to perform those rituals. And that weakens the presence of evil. And evil is ultimately going to be removed from this world at the end of time. And there is going to be a big battle, and evil is going to withdraw from the cosmos and going to go back to the place where it had come from in the first instance, to destroy Ahura Mazda's creation. And at that point, all the dead are going to resurrect to be resurrected.

Podcast Host (42:58)

Right, to be soldiers in that battle, Is that the thing?

Professor Almut Hintz (43:00)

Yes. But also all the dead, they have the resurrection of the body. Death is seen as a victory of evil. And when evil is going to be defeated, the dead automatically are going to be resurrected because death has been defeated, death in the form of Angra Mainyu has been defeated. And that means the deeds of evil are going to be undone and the dead are going to be resurrected, the body.

Podcast Host (43:33)

So Zoroastrians do believe ultimately in resurrection.

Professor Almut Hintz (43:35)

Yes.

Podcast Host (43:36)

Okay, so that's their thoughts, but only at the end of time.

Professor Almut Hintz (43:40)

That happens at the end of time. And the body is, of course, the material creation and the spiritual creation is immortal anyway, that never dies. So when a person dies, the spiritual part, each person has a spiritual part. It's called Urvan, one of the spiritual parts, Orvan, that's the soul. So the soul is immortal. So when a person dies, the soul of the person moves on and it faces individual judgment after death.

Podcast Host (44:19)

Oh, once again, like Egypt's Book of the Dead and I guess also judgment in the Christian religion and the like, it's depending on how you lived your life, you know what will happen.

Professor Almut Hintz (44:31)

Exactly. And the criterion for how you live, what is good and what is bad, is of course, from a Zoroastrian point of view, whether you supported Ahura Mazda, you worshiped Ahura Mazda, you had the rituals performed for him, praise him, and reduce the power of evil in the world, then you have a lot of good thoughts, good words, good deeds, and each individual should amass as many good thoughts, good words, good deeds as possible. And after death, these good thoughts and words and good deeds are going to be weighed on scales. And depending on how that individual judgment ends the soul, then it has to cross a bridge, a bridge of where the good Thoughts and words and deeds and the bad ones are collected. It has to cross that bridge and either enters Ahura Mazda's paradise, the Garo de Mana where Ahura Mazda dwells, or it goes to the place where Angra Mainyou dwells. If bad thoughts, words and deeds, especially deeds, prevail and then there they have to stay until the end of time, until the perfection of the world when evil is going to be defeated. And at that point there is going to be a judgment of the body. So the soul, the individual souls have been judged in their individual judgments each time a person dies. But then at the end there is a universal judgment when all the resurrected bodies, they also have to be judged. And they use an image of a stream of molten metal. We have that in the middle portion text from the Sasanian period where all the metals in the earth are going to be melted and the bodies, the resurrected bodies have to pass through that. And for those who where the evil deeds prevailed, it will be very painful. And for the good ones it will feel like warm milk. But they all come out at the other end. And there then the bodies, the resurrected bodies are going to be united with their respective souls. And then the person will continue to exist in perpetuity and Ahura Mazda will then exist with his spiritual and material creations forever. And evil is going to withdraw and it has been incapacitated, it will be powerless, as it says in the Avesta. So we have two types of creation in Zoroastrianism, spiritual and material. And the spiritual precedes the material world. The material world is rooted in the spiritual world and the spiritual world descends from Mahura Mazda. And we have two judgments, an individual judgment that is for the spiritual part of a person. And we have a universal judgment at the end of time. So we have two judgments. And those two judgments, they have their justification in the two types of creation. In the spiritual and the material creation. Each of them is going to be judged.

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Professor Almut Hintz (48:08)

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Podcast Host (48:47)

So having said all of that almut with what they believed and what would ultimately happen to the bodies. What do we know about how Zoroastrians, whether It's in the second millennium B.C. or in the time of the Achaemenid Persians or the Parthians or the Sasanians later, what do we know about how they buried their dead?

Professor Almut Hintz (49:05)

So for the Zoroastrians, death was not meant to be. For Ahura Master's creations, he wanted his material world to live forever, but he created the material world as an instrument to defeat evil. So when evil Angra Mainyu inflicts death on a living being, that looks like a victory and death is considered as a bad thing by the Zoroastrians. And everything that comes from Angra, mind you, is bad, polluted and needs to be removed as quickly as possible. So anything that is detached from a living being, be it just a hair from our head or be it a dead body where life is no longer in it, is considered to be extremely polluting and it needs to be removed from the living world as quickly as possible.

Podcast Host (50:12)

So no burial idea?

Professor Almut Hintz (50:14)

No. Because the earth is thought to be Ahura Mazda's creation and it was pure and perfect. It should not be polluted with a dead body, nor should the water be polluted. If you throw a dead body into a water, it's considered to be polluting, it's bad for the water. And you should certainly not throw a dead body into fire, because fire is the son of Ahura Mazda. Out of the question as well. So the best way to dispose of a dead body is to expose it to vultures and vultures, excarnation, vultures are excellent for that. They do a great job and they are highly regarded by the Zoroastrians. And they do it very quickly. And they don't fly, you know, they eat it on the ground, whatever they eat. And so they are almost like a hygiene police. And this practice of exposure is probably also rooted in ancient, very ancient practices of the culture. In certain areas where the proto Iranians came from, where it was opportune to expose dead bodies. And they would have taken them up to, to the hills and lay them down on a stone platform and just leave the bodies there to be excavated by the birds and then they would collect the bones. Then they would have had something what we call secondary burial. They collect the bones and then they sometimes they would have created a little casket and then bury that, put that into the earth. But the bones would be dry, just dry bones, so there would be nothing polluting in the bones anymore. And we have got such bone containers or ossuaries have been found in Central Asia, especially of the Sogdians. The Sogdians were a people in the first millennium of the Christian era, but they must have been around also their predecessors in earlier times.

Podcast Host (52:37)

They're in Uzbekistan area.

Professor Almut Hintz (52:38)

Uzbekistan area, yes, exactly. And Tajikistan.

Podcast Host (52:42)

Yes.

Professor Almut Hintz (52:43)

And in the first millennium, during the Achaemenid period and later still, they were traders along the Silk Road. They traded with China. And in Central Asia, there, ossuaries have been found which depict Zoroastrian scenes with priests. And there is also a tomb, a stone tomb, where probably the bones would have been put in, which depict the crossing of that bridge of the soul when it has to cross the bridge. So these are illustrations of imagery of Zoroastrian eschatological ideas, ideas about what happens to the soul after death.

Podcast Host (53:28)

So if these beliefs stem all the way back to, say, the second millennium bc, Is that what we presume then, or.

Professor Almut Hintz (53:35)

I think so, yeah.

Podcast Host (53:36)

I mean, so if that is all kind of laid out by that time already in, like the late Bronze Age period, do we know how quickly it becomes a very popular religion to follow, particularly in places like Iran? Because we do normally think of the Persians and the Parthians as the ones who really did follow this religion. But do we have any idea just how quickly these beliefs were seized upon as the wrong word, but people really started to find them appealing and start following them?

Professor Almut Hintz (54:07)

It seems to me that Zoroastrianism started really early. And for me, the most probable scenario is that it started in proto Iranian times. That means at the time when the Iranians were still one people and that they all shared in the demonization of the daivas of the old gods and the worship of Ahura Mazda. So that was with them right from the beginning, before they dispersed and split, especially in eastern and Western Iranian, that they already had the religion with them, they carried it with them, the Zoroastrian religion.

Podcast Host (54:50)

So when we get to time, let's say of the Medians, so just before the Persians, would they have been Zoroastrian as well? Yes, it would have been interesting.

Professor Almut Hintz (54:57)

And of course, then in historical periods, it might well have taken different manifestations in different areas, just as the different Iranian dialects then developed. So also there might have been modifications of different of the practice, the religious practice, but they would have carried the worship of Ahura Mazda and the demonization of the diverse wisdom already, and with it also the Avesta.

Podcast Host (55:24)

Yes. And then, of course, if you're going west, then you get into the world of the Jews and the other Mesopotamian religions as well, and ultimately the Greeks and the Romans. So this is another episode in its own right. But is it also interesting with the rise of Persia and then the Parthians afterwards, is it also interesting to study how these, you know, foreign groups, who, I guess Zoroastrians would see as people who are following the divers or the false gods, how they interacted with this religion from Iran that was so prominent there?

Professor Almut Hintz (55:56)

Yeah, indeed, yes. The oldest evidence we have is from Babylonia, when, from the times of the Achaemenids, when we have the reports in the Hebrew Bible, in the book of Isaiah, who talks about Cyrus.

Podcast Host (56:14)

Yes.

Professor Almut Hintz (56:14)

Who did not know Yahweh, because Cyrus, of course, would have worshipped another God. He would, I think, why not? He should have worshiped Ahura Mazda, but that he released the Jews from captivity and restored the temple treasures to the Jews and facilitated the return of the Jews of the Israelites, better to say, to Palestine, where they had come from, to their promised land and to rebuild their temple. And then many Jews, many Israelites remained, stayed on in Mesopotamia, in Babylonia, because they had settled by then and they seemed to have been quite happy to live under the Persian rule, under Achaemenid rule. And exchanges, intellectual, religious exchanges must have taken place. They had a common language, which was the Aramaic language, that was the language of administration of the Achaemenid Empire. And the Israelites, they would have spoken Aramaic. And we can see from within the Israelite texts, the Hebrew Bible, we can see how they slowly, very slowly develop an eschatology, ideas about life after death. And gradually, with the Israelite religion, death all of a sudden becomes something bad which it wasn't before. And that culminates then in Christianity, in the letter of Paul, in the Corinthian, one of the letters to the Corinthians, where Paul writes, the ultimate enemy to be defeated is death.

Podcast Host (58:07)

And do you think that is an influence from Zoroastrian? Interesting. I mean, it could ask so much more and of course. Well, I will ask then. Go on. It's another episode. But the wise men in the nativity story, is it very likely that they were Zoroastrians?

Professor Almut Hintz (58:22)

It's very likely, yes. And the strongest indicator for that is not only that they came from the east, that's what it says in Matthew, but that they are called Magoi, not wise men. We call them wise men or the kings, they are called Magoj. And nobody else is called Magos except a Zoroastrian priest.

Podcast Host (58:48)

So major, like magicians and all that kind of stuff.

Professor Almut Hintz (58:49)

I guess that's where our word magician comes from. Magush is the word for a priest, especially in Western Iran. We have the word also in the Avesta, but only once. It's not very prominent in the Avesta itself. But then in Western Iran, they use that word magush. But the word maga from which it is derived is an important role in the Zoroastrian ritual. And in the Gathas already in the oldest texts, it probably means that the whole ritual is a magga, because in the ritual, in the performance of a ritual of a Zoroastrian ritual, a gift exchange is enacted between the humans, the priest and the divine. It puts an exchange of gifts into motion. So probably that's where mag. The mag bit comes from. And it is a technical term for a priest.

Podcast Host (59:48)

Amit, this has been fascinating. I know we've largely focused on, like, the origins of Zoroastrianism and the core beliefs that stay there, but it was quite nice to do it this way because otherwise we could have done a narrative and go through just kind of scratch the surface of the Achaemenids, the Parthians, Sassanians, as I've mentioned. But I guess those beliefs are the things that stay there throughout, isn't it? And you can see down to the present day. And what's also interesting is the fact that as we've touched upon there, like links with Christianity and other religions as well, that the Zoroastrians would, I guess, seen as, you know, the lie and not the truth. And yet the interactions there and the influence of Zoroastrianism is there almost, I guess, is their belief in. They are bringing the truth to these other groups at the same time.

Professor Almut Hintz (60:31)

Yes, yes. Interestingly, Zoroastrianism has always remained the religion of the Iranian people. People that might well be because the Zoroastrians continue to pray in the Avestan language. It's very much tied to the Iranian Avestan language. So it has remained the religion of the Iranian people. But at the same time, they have also coexisted with followers of other religions.

Podcast Host (61:04)

Ahmed these beliefs, they've endured for so many centuries, so many millennia. They are in the Persian period, the Parthians, the Sasanians, and down to the present day. And it's amazing just how old those beliefs are and how they endure.

Professor Almut Hintz (61:18)

Yes, indeed. And for the Zoroastrians up to the present day, the motto is good thoughts, good words, good deeds, and not bad thoughts, bad words, bad deeds, bad. And that is linked to their concept of evil as a separate force which needs to be fought against and that lives on up to the present day.

Podcast Host (61:37)

Absolutely fascinating. What a way to end it on Almut it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.

Professor Almut Hintz (61:43)

It has been my pleasure and honor. Thank you.

Podcast Host (61:49)

Well, there you go. There was leading expert Professor Almut Hintzer giving you a wonderful introduction to what what Zoroastrianism is, its key beliefs, and its origins far back in prehistoric times. I hope you enjoyed the episode just as much as we did recording it. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Ancients. Please follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us and you were doing us a big favor. If you'd also be kind enough to leave us a rating as well where we'd really appreciate that. I don't know. Forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hit's podcasts and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe@historyhit.com subscribe. That's all from me. I'll see you in the next episode.

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