15 Logo Red Flags: When to Pitch a Rebrand & How to Close the Deal

Summary

Podcast Title: The Angry Designer - Graphic Design, Branding, Marketing, & Creative Business Operations to Get Paid What Your Worth and Avoid Burnout
Episode: 15 - Logo Red Flags: When to Pitch a Rebrand & How to Close the Deal
Release Date: October 15, 2024
Host: Massimo and Sean

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Overview

In Episode 15 of The Angry Designer, hosts Massimo and Sean delve into the critical topic of logo evaluation and rebranding strategies. Titled "Logo Red Flags: When to Pitch a Rebrand & How to Close the Deal", this episode serves as an invaluable guide for graphic designers aiming to identify when a company's logo needs a makeover and how to effectively approach clients about rebranding. The hosts emphasize the importance of recognizing outdated logos, understanding the nuances between a logo refresh and a complete rebrand, and mastering the art of pitching these services without coming across as overly critical or arrogant.

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Recognizing the Need for a New Logo

1. Outdated Design [17:33]

Massimo begins by highlighting that the most obvious sign a logo needs updating is its outdated design:

Massimo [17:33]: "If your logo looks like it's stuck in the past, it embraces this older style from a decade or two previous. That's a pretty obvious sign."

An outdated logo not only fails to resonate with modern audiences but also signals stagnation within the company. Designers should look for elements that no longer align with current design trends or the company's evolving identity.

2. Irrelevance to Current Business [18:10]

A logo must reflect the company's present mission and offerings. If a business has evolved—shifting its products, services, or target audience—and the logo no longer aligns with this evolution, it's time for a re-evaluation:

Sean [07:09]: "What would possess these guys to do this?"
Massimo [07:37]: "There's a time and place for a new logo versus a new brand."

3. Lack of Story Connection [19:16]

Modern branding thrives on storytelling. A logo should encapsulate the brand's story, mission, and values. If a logo lacks this connection, it misses an opportunity to create a memorable impact:

Massimo [19:16]: "Does your logo scream that brand story? If it doesn't, that's a good opportunity."

4. Excessive Complexity [21:03]

Overly complex logos can be confusing and fail to communicate the brand's essence effectively. Simplifying a logo enhances versatility and recognizability:

Massimo [21:03]: "If logos have drop shadows, gradients, or hidden elements, it's hard to look at. It's a disaster."

5. Absence of Emotional Connection [23:06]

A successful logo evokes emotions that resonate with the target audience. Without this emotional hook, the logo becomes forgettable:

Massimo [23:06]: "The logo needs to trigger some sort of feeling. If it doesn't, that's a good opportunity to find an angle."

6. Outdated Typography [25:38]

Fonts play a crucial role in logo design. Outdated or poorly chosen typography can make a logo appear old-fashioned or unprofessional:

Massimo [25:38]: "If the fonts look dated, it's an easy opportunity to update and refresh the company's visual identity."

7. Generic and Boring Design [26:21]

Safe and generic logos lack uniqueness, making it difficult for a brand to stand out. A memorable logo should differentiate the company from its competitors:

Massimo [26:21]: "If something is boring, it's not memorable. You can highlight that it's not as memorable as the company's experience."

8. Trend-Driven Flaws [26:52]

Overly trendy logos may lose their appeal quickly as design trends evolve. Fad-driven elements can date a logo, necessitating future redesigns:

Massimo [26:52]: "If it's fad-driven and follows a trend, it's a perfect opportunity to let it bounce and propose a timeless design instead."

9. Increased Competition [28:31]

The emergence of new competitors with fresh, modern branding can pressure existing companies to update their logos to stay relevant and competitive:

Massimo [28:31]: "If there's new competition in the market, it's a great opportunity to help them elevate their brand to stay competitive."

10. Company Growth and Expansion [28:45]

As companies grow, their visual identity should reflect their expanded capabilities and market presence. A logo that hasn't evolved may not accurately represent the company's stature:

Massimo [28:45]: "Growth is a very safe way to let a company know that their logo needs to reflect their growth and take it to the next level."

11. Brand Confusion [29:21]

A logo that creates confusion about the company's offerings or message undermines the brand's effectiveness. Clear and coherent branding eliminates ambiguity:

Massimo [29:21]: "If there's confusion with the logo and what the business is delivering, that's a big opportunity for rebranding."

12. Amateurish Design [30:07]

Logos that appear unprofessional or hastily designed reflect poorly on the company, suggesting a lack of investment in quality and brand image:

Massimo [30:07]: "If the design looks amateurish, it's time for them to invest in a professional logo that mirrors their current success."

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Differentiating Between Refresh and Rebrand

Understanding the distinction between a logo refresh and a rebrand is crucial for designers when approaching clients:

• Logo Refresh: Involves minor tweaks to the existing logo, such as updating the font, simplifying elements, or adjusting colors. The core identity remains recognizable.

  Examples:

  • Google: Maintained its primary color scheme and structure while updating the font for a modern look.
  • Pepsi: Slightly altered the circles and font, retaining brand recognition.

  Sean [05:38]: "We're not necessarily rebranding the company, just giving their logo a refresh."

• Rebrand: Entails a comprehensive overhaul of the brand's visual identity, often coinciding with significant changes in the company's mission, products, or market positioning.

  Examples:

  • Burger King: Adopted a retro logo and overhauled its stores and marketing campaigns without changing its core products.
  • Dunkin Donuts: Dropped "Donuts" to reflect an expanded menu beyond donuts.

  Massimo [08:04]: "If the company undergoes significant changes, a rebrand might be necessary to align the logo with the new direction."

Massimo emphasizes the importance of choosing the right approach based on the company's current state and future goals, ensuring that the logo aligns seamlessly with the brand's evolution.

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Effective Strategies for Pitching Rebrands

Approaching clients about rebranding requires tact and a strategic approach to avoid dismissing their current success. Massimo and Sean offer insightful strategies:

1. Highlight Achievements Before Suggesting Changes

Begin by acknowledging and celebrating the company's successes to build rapport and demonstrate genuine interest.

Massimo [33:05]: "Focus on their accomplishments and how your design can help elevate their brand further."

2. Emphasize the Benefits Over Criticism

Rather than pointing out flaws, present rebranding as an opportunity to enhance their already successful brand.

Sean [32:07]: "Subtlety will pay off if you're going to approach them about a rebrand."

3. Showcase Versatility and Modernization

Illustrate how a refreshed logo can adapt to various mediums, enhancing brand recognition across digital and physical platforms.

Massimo [35:33]: "A responsive logo works across different mediums, helping improve recognition and aligning with the company's growth."

4. Leverage Examples of Successful Rebrands

Referencing well-known brands that have successfully refreshed or rebranded can serve as powerful evidence of the benefits.

Massimo [10:20]: "Google's logo refresh and Starbucks' subtle changes over decades are great examples of effective updates."

5. Position Yourself as a Partner, Not a Critic

Convey your desire to collaborate and support the company's journey rather than merely critiquing their current design.

Massimo [36:40]: "Let them know you want to help them with this journey, collaborating to elevate their visual identity."

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Case Studies and Real-World Examples

Throughout the episode, Massimo and Sean dissect various real-world examples to illustrate effective logo updates:

• Starbucks: Maintained the core mermaid symbol while making subtle changes to fonts and layout, ensuring brand continuity.

• Pepsi: Adjusted circle sizes and font styles without altering the iconic color scheme, preserving brand recognition.

• Burger King: Adopted a retro aesthetic, overhauling its visual presentation without changing its fundamental product offerings.

These examples demonstrate how successful logos can evolve without losing their original essence, maintaining consumer trust and brand loyalty.

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Closing Thoughts and Actionable Insights

As the episode concludes, Massimo and Sean reinforce the abundance of opportunities available for graphic designers to pitch rebranding projects. They encourage designers to actively observe their surroundings, identify businesses with outdated logos, and approach them with tailored, respectful proposals that highlight mutual growth.

Massimo [41:56]: "There's gold in them there heels. Look around, relook at everything in your area, and offer to elevate their brand."

By adopting a strategic, empathetic approach, designers can position themselves as valuable partners in a company's journey, fostering long-term relationships and expanding their creative portfolios.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Massimo [17:33]: "If your logo looks like it's stuck in the past, it embraces this older style from a decade or two previous. That's a pretty obvious sign."

• Sean [07:09]: "What would possess these guys to do this?"

• Massimo [19:16]: "Does your logo scream that brand story? If it doesn't, that's a good opportunity."

• Massimo [21:03]: "If logos have drop shadows, gradients, or hidden elements, it's hard to look at. It's a disaster."

• Massimo [23:06]: "The logo needs to trigger some sort of feeling. If it doesn't, that's a good opportunity to find an angle."

• Sean [32:07]: "Subtlety will pay off if you're going to approach them about a rebrand."

• Massimo [35:33]: "A responsive logo works across different mediums, helping improve recognition and aligning with the company's growth."

• Massimo [41:56]: "There's gold in them there heels. Look around, relook at everything in your area, and offer to elevate their brand."

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Conclusion

Episode 15 of The Angry Designer equips graphic designers with the knowledge and strategies necessary to identify when a company's logo needs a refresh or complete rebrand. By understanding the signs of an outdated or ineffective logo and mastering the art of pitching rebranding services respectfully and effectively, designers can unlock new business opportunities and contribute significantly to their clients' brand evolution. Whether it's simplifying complex designs, aligning the logo with the company's growth, or ensuring emotional resonance, this episode offers a comprehensive roadmap for enhancing brand identity in a competitive market.

Stay tuned for more actionable insights and expert advice on building rewarding creative careers without succumbing to industry burnout.

Transcript

[A]

I don't necessarily recommend walking into a place and be like, hey, you guys really up last week. Do you want a new logo this week?

[B]

What a show. Hey, how about a logo?

[A]

So these are 15 awesome. Really, really easy pickings, okay. On signs that somebody you see out in the marketplace needs a new logo. You're listening to the Angry Designer podcast, where we help frustrated graphic designers crush all the industry BS and learn what it takes to charge what you're worth and build badass, rewarding careers. In this episode, we're diving into how we recognize when a company's logo is crying out for some help. You're going to learn about how to spot outdated logos and use that knowledge to pitch rebrand deals. Why? Recognizing logo mistakes but not necessarily pointing them out as mistakes can position you as a brand expert. And the key signs that show a logo is hurting a business and how to offer the solution to the company. So sit back or sit up and get ready to level up your client game, because there's a lot of really juicy knowledge in this episode that hopefully you can take advantage of to start closing rebrand deals. All right, this is all kind of fun.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, we haven't poured our drinks.

[A]

I was just gonna say, I think that is the most important part of. Well, maybe not, but it's a good way to start every episode.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So today we are trying something very special. We always try something special. This one is special, the Ardmore. And I. I don't even know if I'm pronouncing it right, but it's a highland single malt sauce. Man, I suck at Scottish accents. Accents, period.

[B]

Do it. It's ard more. It's delicious. It's great.

[A]

Not too bad. That's not too bad.

[B]

I'll drink it.

[A]

Check out. I mean, this brand is beautiful. If you look at that. Okay. It still comes in its own package. It's kind of got, like a topographical, you know. You know, you can see the island, you can see the train tracks, you can see the elevation. It's actually quite, quite nicely done.

[B]

Very sexy.

[A]

And it's supposed to be nice and peaty. So let's give her a whirl. Let us enjoy, shall we?

[B]

Sniffer test.

[A]

I can smell that, Pete. Oh, dude. See? And for the price point, this is fantastic. So this is actually a lower price Scotch. Some of the Scotch that we have is. Is usually in the, like, 120, 130. Usually higher. This is half of that. And it is delicious.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Why would we choose to go with one of these other ones when you got something. So, like, this is a nice balance of everything.

[B]

It's perfect. Right.

[A]

Wow, it really is such an easy drinker. You could drink. You can get in trouble with this.

[B]

Yeah. It's not going to be here for long.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it might, because I'm not here next week.

[B]

Oh, that's right. Maybe I'll take a little.

[A]

Day drinking.

[B]

You sneak into your office under the desk.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Drink it away.

[A]

As opposed to all those other times you sneak in my office and drink all the rest of the alcohol anyway.

[B]

Exactly. Right.

[A]

Or Sean, he's underneath Moss's desk again.

[B]

Drinking under his desk.

[A]

Yes. Drinking nothing else under his desk. Get your minds out of the gutter, you weirdos.

[B]

I don't want everybody to know how I got this podcast.

[A]

So this has been a long weekend. It's been a busy week.

[B]

It has. It's been a very busy week.

[A]

We had some good interviews earlier on for the podcast, but we also had a lot of work stuff, and it's ramping up because September and October is like the busiest time for us because we have two back. Two back giant shows.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So it's pretty crazy. And then all of a sudden, you jam in this new project that we got. We got a new, new logo project, and I want to say it's a rebrand because the company itself has come so far, but because they. Primarily, their mission is the same. You know, what they're doing, their customers, all that's the same. This is probably more of a refresh, which. Which. Which, you know, is kind of. We're going to definitely go into that in this episode, of course. Right. But it's funny, because I kind of feel it was a lost opportunity for any graphic designer in that city, because looking at this logo, it is so, like. I mean, this. This was so due for a logo redesign years ago, if not 10, 15 years that old.

[B]

Is it?

[A]

Dude, It's. It's just so basic, so old. It's just like, you look at it, you're like, wow, you guys could do so much better.

[B]

Right?

[A]

But they didn't. Because they probably didn't know any better. Right. And I bet you it's because a lot of the designers didn't know any better either. They just figured, oh, they're. They're successful, they're ongoing. They're. They're still in business. They're. They're not interested in a logo rebrand. Right. Or a logo refresh or whatever. But again, huge missed opportunity. I feel Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's why I was like, dude, we need to quickly talk about this because I think that a lot of designers don't realize, you know, when something's right in front of just because the company's successful, dude, there's a. There comes a time where that logo needs to reflect what that company is. The times, the dates, and everything else. So. So we got a list, okay. Of signs on. On why your customer should update their logo. And then we're going to dance around a couple of the other things that kind of go here, right? Because. So, for example, we talked about what we're doing right now, right. Is, you know, we're creating a new logo.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We're not necessarily rebranding, not company.

[B]

No.

[A]

Right. We're not creating a new brand. We're not building a new brand. This legitimately is a new logo, and there is a difference for that. Right? So like I said, this company is still the same old company. Okay? Mission is exactly the same, their core values the same, their position in the market. Nothing's changed.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. You know, the reality is it's just the identity, you know, sadly, is outdated. Right. And you know, it's just. It's standing out like a sore thumb. Okay? Now, if somebody was like, well, what's the difference? It was not a new brand. Not really. Okay. New brand is kind of like you've elevated your company to a new, new place. Right. You've. You've undergone some sort of significant change, whether it's your product, your shift in audience services. Right. Or heaven forbid, you're running away from a really bad reputation, which happens a lot. Right?

[B]

Oh, right.

[A]

And that happens a lot, Right. So that's like, that's more like, you know, you need communicate this whole new transformation of the company where what this was, was this was just. It needed a new logo because the logo was old, it was dated, nobody had touched it. The company still. The company is still rocking, but, you know, they needed help taking that. So there is a time and place for a new logo versus a new brand.

[B]

Yes. So in the situation with this company, what moves them to want to update? Because a lot of these guys, you see these co ops and they just keep the same thing. Yep. It's really irrelevant to them one way or the other. What would possess these guys to do this?

[A]

So again, I think what possessed them to do it at this? And I mean, shame on us. We could have pursued this earlier. We. If we weren't so damn busier, we would have.

[B]

This is it.

[A]

Okay. But this is what I mean, is a lost opportunity for everybody else.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So for this specific customer, the reason, you know, being is they have a second company. That's that we did create a brand new logo. We created a new brand. That new logo, new brand resonated so well with the audience. It's got, it's just in such a short time, everybody recognizes it. They're jumping all over it and they're like, wow, look at all the attention they're getting. And now by comparison, we don't look a little outdated. We look huge outdated. We are so far away from this other, you know, some other identity.

[B]

It's the parent company then, essentially.

[A]

So, yeah, it's funny because we basically, we first rebrand branded completely, came up with a brand new brand look, corporate ID for the spin off company.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But now the parent company is like, wow, hey, yeah, you know what?

[B]

There is a great, you know, kind of example of, you know, landing and expanding.

[A]

It really is actually. Right. Knows how much I want to get right in there. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. So again, so that was the difference between, you know, if a company needs a new logo versus a new brand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But now, even when it comes to this new logo, new brand. Right. There's two ways of taking this. Okay. And again, this is also a big difference that I don't think people pay enough attention to. Okay. Because you have the opportunity to just refresh what's currently there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And you have an opportunity, just overhaul, you know, completely, you know, rebrand, if you decide to go there, what's there. Okay. So you have that option, you know, regardless with whether this is a new brand or whether it's a whole new logo altogether. But there is a difference between refreshing an existing logo and then completely rebranding an existing logo. Okay. So if it was just a refresh. Okay, Like a refresh. I think we all understand what refresh means. Just because that word fresh always makes people feel so good. This is refresh. Oh, yeah, it is. Right. But I mean, this is basically if you know your logo relatively still is legit. Okay. But it needs some minor adjustments. Maybe, maybe the font is a little outdated and it needs a little bit of a refresh impact. Okay. Yeah, no, that's an overhaul, dude. That's an explosion. Right. Maybe, maybe you need to simplify some elements or maybe adjust the colors a little bit. Right. This still keeps your existing logo recognizable. Everybody gets it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. But at the same time, it doesn't feel like a completely new company. And recently, everybody will probably Witness that. You know, this is something that just happened with Pentagram that they did with PayPal. Okay. So PayPal has this new spin off product and it's still PayPal the way everybody recognize it. But they just went in and made some tweaks. Tweaks to the font, tweaks to the edges. At first glance, people may not even realize that there has been a change. Us graphic designers absolutely would. Right. I mean, it glares at us, but chances are most of the market wouldn't even realize that anything changed. Right. So that would be a really good current example of a refresh. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Other examples of a refresh that everybody would absolutely recognize. Starbucks.

[B]

Starbucks.

[A]

For the most part, yes. Okay. Every Starbucks logo In the past 20, 30 years has been the same logo. Dare I even say 40? It's still been. They've changed the fonts, they've changed the positions of the fonts. Okay. Say what you want. Even when they got rid of the fonts around the logo and just focused on the mermaid, still the exact same thing. These were all just small little refreshes. But, you know, you can see that the logo still remained the logo. There was no huge surprises there. That made anybody jump back and be like, what are they doing? Whoa. Actually, I think people still complain. Well, because it's Starbucks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Google is a perfect example of refresh.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Their very, very first logo was like SK morphism, you know, letters that had like a shine on one side, a shadow. They were beveled, you know, and they had different colors.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But all Google has done, you know, since, since they've started, is just updated the font.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Colors are the same. How they use it is the same.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Granted, maybe they have introduced new, new items like with G Suite and stuff, but that logo has just been refreshed over the years. Nothing dramatic that, you know, all of a sudden makes people question, is this a brand new company? Right. Pepsi.

[B]

Pepsi. Oh my God.

[A]

Love it or hate it, you know, especially that one weird logo, the half smile logo that they paid $1 million for and everybody was just like a million dollars for the biggest load of bullshit. It has primarily been the exact same logo. They use the same colors, basically, you know, you know, the white space in the middle, the three colors, that is legendary for them. Right. For a little while they got rid of the name in the middle, but now with our latest rendition, it looks exactly the same as the 70s.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Just newer font, newer font, slight tweaks to the circles, the waves and everything else. So Pepsi has Been a good example of a refresh over the years, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And even though a lot of people hate this one, MasterCard technically would be a refresh. All right. Because again, all they've done, they've kept the two main components of the brand. Right. The two circles that are overlapping. Right. Used to have the name. They would update the font and the name. They would update the size of the circles and then more recently dropped the name and kind of made the circles a little bit more contemporary. But for all intents and purposes, looking at it, you knew it was MasterCard. There was no question. So this is a good example of the refresh, okay. Where if you were to overhaul it completely or completely rebrand a logo, which a little confusing because we were talking about new brands, but we'll say overhaul the logo altogether. Right. This is if the company's gone through significant changes. Okay. And they've got a whole new target audience. Right. Everything changes on a whole. And it's like that whole new transformation that they're undergoing. Okay. So examples of this is Dunkin Donuts.

[B]

Dunkin Donuts.

[A]

Dunkin. Same audience. Okay. They do audiences the same. The primary company is the same, but the overall corporate, you know, look, feel direction is changing a little bit. Right. I don't know if I would consider that a brand new brand because it's still Dunkin Donuts. It's just the new and improved.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Dunkin Donuts.

[B]

Okay, so probably we're getting away from Donuts, right?

[A]

Well, exactly.

[B]

Because it's kind of like sandwiches and things like that.

[A]

Singling signaling to the world that it's like, hey, this is the new and improved us, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we're kind of. So, I mean, again, you could argue that this is a new brand, which in some ways, I guess it feels like it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's still the same company.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So this is what happens when a company just kind of overhauls their interior. Right. They make things look better. Right. So it feels like a whole new company, but it's just they're overhauling for a specific reason.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. So again, Duncan is a good example for that. Okay. Because again, they dropped the donuts to signify that they now have new items in there. Right. Still the same audience. Just they're going through some changes. British Petroleum, bp, when they went from that to that whole new Starburst. Right. That, you know, kind of signified as a new future ahead from them. So they needed something that was bigger than just a refresh.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Kia, in my opinion. Okay. So Again, you know, the car has been primarily the same, and it's been getting better and better and better over the years. So it was like, you know what? We now need to overhaul that damn logo. Okay. So again, you know, would you consider that a rebrand? Maybe it's a rebrand, but the thing is, it's same product, same audience.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just now they want people to look at them differently.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Same with Duncan. Same with bp. Right. It's like we're moving forward with this. It's not. Not that the company has necessarily changed so much or the audience. It's just more so, you know, their direction, their outlook on everything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Burger King, actually. And that's the other one. Right. Like, I mean, let's face it, you know, they didn't change their burgers.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

Okay. The burgers were always decent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That cringe used to be I'm a little bit of a burger or burger snob, but, I mean, you know, what. What did they do? Right. It was an overhaul, per se. I wouldn't call that a logo refresh compared to their last one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They went back to something more retro. They overhauled their stores, they overhauled their campaign, but the company itself didn't really change, so it was just more the kind of the. The whole place itself in the environment. So that was a whole rebrand in that case. Yeah, yeah. Or overhaul in that case. So I see them as differently. Maybe I'm just splitting hairs here. Maybe. Maybe, you know, a new logo only is with a refresh and. And the rebrand is with a new brand. I don't know. But I kind of see the difference between the two.

[B]

The cor of what everybody was doing there was. Was changing, but nor they were changing, like, just, you know, Dunkin Donuts is getting away, so they need to get rid of the name Dunkin Donuts. Right. Because it's not just Donuts anymore. You don't want to just pigeonhole that. We've got other cool things.

[A]

Yeah, they did a really good job.

[B]

Yeah, I can. I can totally see.

[A]

Well, okay. Think that way then. You know what? Either. Either it's just a new logo, you know, like. Like a new logo or a new brand and then it's a refranch or refresh or it's an overhaul. Like, how drastic do you want to get to? Right. So that's the primary differences in how deep you want to go with these.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In this case, with this customer, the company's exactly the same.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. They're the company, the audience, the way they service everybody, because they've done a great job. It's just, you know, they are really, really outdated. So this could, in fact, be, like, an overhaul. Yeah, Right. And there were a lot of signs that would. That basically talk to this that I think everybody missed. Okay. We saw it because we would snicker at the old logo. It's fun to listen. I snickered at it. Who the hell says that anymore?

[B]

Snickered.

[A]

I snickered at it. I was being very polite about it.

[B]

Snickering.

[A]

But the reality is I figured if somebody had this simple outline to be like, you know, what? Boom. You know, like, yes, it checks this box. Checks this box, they could have easily gone after it in the same direction. So I just listed out 15 signs. Why your customer should update their logo. Okay. For everybody to follow. And this just brings it forward to kind of make you realize sometimes you're looking at a logo so long, you think it's okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the reality is it needs to undergo some significant changes. Okay. And then afterwards, we're gonna just briefly talk about how to actually approach this or how we would approach this in the future if we actually did. Okay. So 15 signs.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Number one, the most obvious, it just has an outdated design.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. Plain and simple. If your logo looks like it's stuck in the past, it embraces this. This older style from a decade or two previous. That's a pretty obvious. And again, you know, don't. Don't. Don't think that it's. Hey, it's. It's trendy now, again. Because the reality is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Even if you did embrace the 70s theme, again, there are differences to how modern retro, understanding embellishments, you know, pulling inspiration from something like that looks a lot different than the actual 70s stuff. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Even, you know, dare I say if somebody was even, you know, revisit some of the. Maybe legends like Paul Brands or Mas Van, some of their older stuff, they might keep a lot of the exact, you know, feel and. And. And. And, like, you know, the embrace what the vibe it was. But they might make some tweaks to it. And you do see that often with a lot of, you know, companies as they kind of go through the change. So if the design looks outdated. Okay, Good sign right there that, you know, you can knock on that door.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Number two, no longer relevant. Oh, okay. So oftentimes, maybe a company has gone through something like their business has evolved a little bit. The logo is a little bit old. There's A little bit of a mismatch. Right. Maybe, you know, there was a company locally that, you know, they went from one product which, you know, like, was kind of like a remote controlled, you know, arm thing, you know, where you can control devices with their hand and then they switched to glasses.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Very different. Right. Like, if the company goes through a significant product change or direction, you know, maybe that logo needs to keep up and embrace this whole whole new look, feel, product thing. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Number three, if there isn't a story connected to that logo. Okay. So right now, you know, the whole world is all about your brand story. Okay. And does your logo, you know, like scream that brand story? You know, if it doesn't actually, you know, relate to the company, its story, its mission, its long term goal, then it's kind of a lost opportunity here. So I do think that. Not that it's a logo's job to tell the entire history.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Of a brand. Okay. That's asking too much to say that, hey, we started like this and we ended up here and then we brought in this. That's not a job. But if you, if your logo can tell a story. Okay. That'll just cement itself into your customer's mind.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

So again, if the logo doesn't have that story. Good opportunity. Yeah, right.

[B]

I think a lot of these logos, these old logos, to me it looks like somebody just pulled something from a clip art book and did you know what I mean? Like, if there's. It looks like there's no thought involved.

[A]

Often that was the case back then. Right.

[B]

I wouldn't, I would guess that would be. Yeah. This is what happens back in the day. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. There was no. You can go online and look for a certain icon. You couldn't go online and just type something and it magically popped up. You would have like all the CDs full of black and white clip art, which is basically fancy icons that you would just scroll through. Hundreds and hundreds. They were so horrible. They were terrible. And I mean, back then there was something, you know, romantic about them.

[B]

It was cute. Yeah.

[A]

Right. And it was. Because that's all there was. That's all there was. Right. And now if you were to look at him, you're like, wow, like, how far we've come. You know, there came a point where when we started using him, when we started our business, because again, that was the thing.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Right. We would intentionally embrace them and make them look retro.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And for a little while, it felt like for a whole year, every job we did, we're like, hey, let's make it look retro. I got some great black and white clip art that we can use for this. And we would, we would like totally go, you know, use those retro colors and just these silly little like, you know, the happy guy with holding the beer, the woman holding the warmly baked bread. Right. Like, wow.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Jumped all over that shit. All right. Number four, number four, number four. If their logo is too complex. Right. So again, we're always going on about like, you know, you can't clutter a logo. Okay. I'm all for, you know, simplifying, you know, but you need to simplify not for the sake of simplifying, but to be able to leave the least amount of elements in there that, that benefit the, the, the logo, the story. Not, not, not make it like a chaotic mess.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oftentimes when logos have drop shadows, gradients, a little bird in the corner, some little, you know, hidden element here with a drop shadow. Yeah, dude.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's so hard to look at.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's just a disaster.

[B]

Totally. And yeah, you think like the very first app logo, like, holy hell, there's no way you get away with that nowadays.

[A]

Maybe think about the evolution of Apple.

[B]

Logos, but that's it.

[A]

Because, I mean, again, not only Apple's first Newton one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. But that. Which was pretty crazy.

[B]

That it was insane. Yeah.

[A]

But then, you know, then, then they did the, the rainbowed, you know, like multicolored. And it wasn't even rainbow was in like, you know, like to be like LGBTQ lgb.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes. It wasn't like that. It was just, it was just, it was just a. But they had the bevel on it. They had a little of a shadow. So even that went through years of upgrades. Right. You wouldn't think that it could get any simpler than it was. So there's a good opportunity here that if you're seeing somebody's logo and you can simplify it instead of, you know, it being a 12 point star, see if it can work as a 6 point star. Right. I think Allen, if I'm not mistaken, did one where he took the existing shell logo.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Okay. The shell petroleum logo. And he simplified the amount of, you know, ridges in the shell and, and, you know, the difference it made when you resized it. Okay. And essentially it was the exact same logo.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But now all of a sudden, when you made it one tenth of the size.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can.

[B]

You still saw the ridges. Yes. Yeah.

[A]

So if there's a good opportunity to simplify a logo because it's too complex. Jump on that. All right, Number five, there's no emotional hit, no emotional connection with that logo. Right. The logo needs to trigger some sort of feeling. Now granted, that feeling, you know, usually ties in with the brand itself.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And if the brand is, does it does its job well, when people look at it, they'll, they'll feel something. But that logo needs to embrace that feeling. Okay, so. And hopefully it's a good feeling.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not chaos, it's not hell, it's not people's anger. Right. It's something nice. So again, if there's no emotional hit when you first see that logo, you know, that's a good opportunity to find, you know, an angle to get in there. Yeah, definitely. And we've gone on about this time and time again, the logo, if it's not responsive or it's not adaptable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. We have, you know, for years now, we keep telling people that their logo, their, their brand id, their marks, they have to change with the space that, you know, it's being used in. If it's, if it's a tall, thin space, that logo needs to have a vertical option.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If it's something long and wide, it needs to have something wide. If it's, if it's a favicon, it needs to embr everything in just a tiny little spot. Okay. So it needs to be responsive. And, you know, some old school people might still believe, you know, or be anti this, but it's so easy to sell them on this when you. All you gotta do is show them Disney.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And be like, listen, I know your company is doing well. You've almost hit that $4 million mark. Let me show you this little company called Disney, okay? They're making a little bigger, but look what they did with their logo. Right? And again, you know, time and, and time again, the more brands you look at, everybody is jumping on this because you need to these days. Otherwise, man, how many people have a really shitty logo up in their favicon rammed in there, exact corner.

[B]

You don't even know what the hell it is.

[A]

Yeah, right. So again, if it's not adaptive, not responsive, a no brainer, of course. And this is number six, number seven, if the fonts on it are outdated. Okay? So obviously, you know, two parts of a logo, usually there's the mark and then there's the fonts that adjoin that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

If those fonts look dated. But even the logo market size is pretty darn good. Well, dude, easy opportunity to Walk in and be like, hey, you know, what your logo is, is great, but your font might be a little outdated. I think we can update, you know, just a font choice here. Plus, across all your materials, totally refresh your whole company.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Perfect opportunity to knock on a door. Right. While you're there, you can also adjust the colors if they need to be. Right. Being that the colors now aren't necessarily web friendly and the whole world is digital. Digital.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So these are opportunities to kind of, you know, check into something like this nice number eight, and this one's kind of tricky, but if it's a boring design. Right. And oftentimes what happens is when people start off, they pick something safe.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And generic problem is safe and generic, is it memorable? Okay. No matter how great the company is, and. And I know for a fact that we've had customers and their logo was the letter Q, and it was in a font. I think the font was Caramond or it was just. It was one of the classic fonts.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But it was a Q. Yeah. And there was not enough to differentiate them from every other letter in the Alphabet. Right. Or letter. Any other company that's got a Q. So, you know, they've. They've recently undergone, like, a huge transformation. Huge rebrand. Right. But again, now. And this was, like, 15 years later. Okay. So again, if something is boring, it's not memorable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And granted, I wouldn't go tell your customer that their logo is boring, but, you know, you can use the point that, you know, it's not as memorable as it could be, or it's not as memorable as the experience people have with the company.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Right. There's some schmooze there.

[B]

Some schmooze. Yeah. You always got. You got to be subtle with the. With the customer. Right. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. No kidding. Right. All right. Obviously, if it's fad driven, if it follows a trend, if it's, you know, something, you know, like, if it chases and God knows there's a million of these logos out there. Right. Somebody's built their own logo. When they started, they had a drop shadows. They added, like, you know, gradients to it. They added a trendy font to it. Boom, Perfect opportunity. Just let that one bounce if you can. Right. You know, but here's one that isn't as obvious. If all of a sudden they have a new competitor. Okay. If they have a new competitor in the area in their market that is actually of concern, it's a great opportunity to then start comparing the two brands, seeing how do you elevate this brand to be more like. Because often new competitor comes in with fresh new look, fresh new messaging, fresh new brand. Theirs might be dated. Okay. Might be old, might be a little more bland, working great for them. But now all of a sudden, they stand the chance to lose some market share based on a new competitor. So this is one of those things where it's like, you could, you have the opportunity to tell them that they need to start stepping up, or they might have to step aside and let their. Let their new competitor kind of do the job for them.

[B]

That's a good motivator.

[A]

Tell me about it. Right. Sadly, some companies do that too late.

[B]

Exactly. Which is too bad. Yeah.

[A]

Growth is always a very safe, you know, way to let a company know that their logo now needs to reflect the growth of a company.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And again, whether it's a rebrand, whether it's a refresh. Right. Companies often start off with something very basic, and as they grow, their logo doesn't evolve. Our whole business, you know, in the past 15 years has. Has been built based on this premise.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

That startups start very basic. They have really shitty logos, shitty brands. Their messaging is completely compartmentalized in. In 20 different places.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

We walked in, we're like, look, you're now five times the company you were when you started two years ago.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But your brand still looks like.

[B]

Still looks like your startup. Yeah.

[A]

So let's bring all that shit together and now take it to the next level.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So growth is a fantastic way to let a company know that it's time for them to take it to the next level.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If there's confusion with their logo or brand. Okay. And what I mean by that is it's not necessarily that the logo is a bad logo, but if it doesn't now make sense with their business. Okay. And again, when people start, they offer one thing to the market that's often changes. Their audience is the same, but maybe they're offering more. We see this all the time in our space. Right. A lot of times people start off in something basic like home renovation, but then they end up, you know, killing it in, like some sort of custom product within the home renovation market. And it's just very confusing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So again, if there's some sort of confusion with the brand and what they're actually delivering to their audience. Okay. Big opportunity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Number 13. Okay. Obviously, just like the one that we're experiencing right now, if the design looks amateur. Okay. If it looks like it was just kind of, you know, ripped off from somewhere else, slapped together. Okay. Pulled from clip art from the 70s.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. That was a real thing, people, right?

[A]

It really was. It's time for them now to invest in a pro level, ramp up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And that's kind of the good opportunity, easy opportunity to kind of let company know that, you know, you're not the same company where you started and, you know, let's now get your logo caught up to the new awesome professional company you are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Repositioning, of course. You know, if you got a new, new audience, okay. If you got new products, need a new logo. Okay. And this kind of goes back with the whole new brand idea. Okay. But easy peckings, okay. You can jump in there and be like, hey, you used to be a french fry shop, now you're a full service restaurant. Okay. You used to be a little trailer, you know, like serving fried chicken and french fries, and now you're actually a sit down establishment. Well, we need to kind of elevate your logo, you know, versus what you had. Okay. So that kind of goes with, you know, if you're repositioning the brand, bigger opportunity there, of course. And last but not least, and this one's kind of shitty to say, but if a company goes through bad pressure, okay. And this one's a pretty ballsy one to approach people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But often the, a lot of times the only resort they have is to completely start fresh again. They have their audience, they can kind of keep, you know, keeping everybody internally happy. But as far as public perception goes, sometimes it's easier to cut your losses and kind of start fresh and be like, hey, fresh new start, fresh new logo. So I don't necessarily recommend walking into a place and be like, hey, you guys really fucked up last week. Do you want a new logo this week?

[B]

What a show. Hey, how about a logo?

[A]

Maybe not the best sales tactic again.

[B]

Again, subtlety will pay off for if you're gonna do something like that.

[A]

So. So these are 15 awesome, really, really easy pickings, okay. On signs that you know, your customer or somebody you see out in the market place needs a new logo. You know, outdated design, it's no longer relevant. There's no story to it. It's too complex. There's no emotional hit, it's not responsive. You know, it uses old fonts, it uses a boring design. It's very trend or fad driven. There's new competition in the market. They've experienced growth, but their brand has. Their logo hasn't. There's confusion in their Logo. The design. The logo looks very amateurish. They need to reposition or they need to completely, you know, start fresh because of bad price.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

So these are 15 really easy reasons where you could almost go to any company and make an argument that it's time for you guys to elevate this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

However, if you go in and start picking apart their.

[B]

Nobody, Nobody likes that, do they might.

[A]

Not necessarily be great, because then, you know, you end up coming across as just an arrogant prick, arrogant designer that, you know, everybody hates. Okay? And this is. This is the battle of all graphic designers. Okay? So instead, my recommendation is go in blazing guns about how awesome their accomplishments have been. Unless it's the bad press, let's avoid that one.

[B]

That's a. That's a different strategy altogether.

[A]

But I mean, again, if you focus on their accomplishments and their new solutions and how they solve the world's problems, right, Rather than critiquing what they currently have, they're going to be a lot more receptive and open to the idea. Because here you've been stroking their ego, you know, praising their accomplishments, letting them know that you've been paying attention, that you understand everything. Right. But hey, there's another opportunity here to jump in. So definitely go in. On the plus side, you know, don't go in, you know, criticizing anything. Right. You know, you want to highlight their success, you know, celebrate their growth, congratulate them. Right? And then this is. They can consider now a good time to possibly update the visual identity, to embrace this. Okay? So, you know, by embracing this now, it makes this moment in time, future proof.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Because again, now their logo is. It's expanding. It can work in all these different places. You know, resize. No, simplified, one color, 10 colors. You know, it works. It just. It takes their brand and immortalizes it. Yeah, okay. It will help improve the recognition. So now everybody will realize how great they've done, not just the people who are close to it. Right? Because again, you know, the company could do great, but if the Longo still looks like it did 20 years ago.

[B]

It reflects poorly on you.

[A]

Yes, exactly, dude. Exactly. Right? Obviously, it'll align with their new direction, with their success, with their new audience, with their new mission. It aligns perfectly there. Obviously, the. You know, it works across all the different mediums. Like we said, this now gives us new opportunities to find places to promote this success. Okay? So now we can take it and we can put it all over, you know, hey, guess what? Your LinkedIn is still showing an old logo. Dude, now we can put the new logo on LinkedIn and let everybody see how awesome you guys are. Right. Update their vehicles. If they have vehicles, update their signage. Right. There's going to be a lot of new opportunities, everything. And because the logo is now responsive, it can fit in all these areas.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Right. And what this does, you let them know, reinforce the fact that this will elevate how their customers and, you know, future customers will perceive the brand. Okay. Because that's the huge thing perception is. The sad reality is it's like people will judge a book by its cover. And, you know, sadly, now that the company has done so well, you know, we need to now, you know, elevate their brand ID to match that, to elevate their corporate ID to give the same impression that, you know, that everybody sees and feels from within. Right. That's super important. Because what this will do is it'll now make them more competitive and they'll make them more recognizable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So these are the key things you want to tell people. Okay. Because they will be a lot more open. You don't want them to think that you're just trying to, you know, like, be an expense, be another line.

[B]

You're just trying to milk me from. From my cash.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

No, it's not.

[A]

You have to let them know that there is, you know, a reason to this, and it's too help them, you know, put out what they've been working so hard to create within.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And most importantly, you want to remind them that you want to be there to help them with this journey.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You want to let them know that you're just not a designer that's just pointing out flaws and being like, I can fix this. I can give you a new font. You want to let them know that you see what's happened, you see, you know, what they've accomplished, and now you want to help collaborate with them to take their, their visual identity to the next level, just like they did internally with their company.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Because what that'll do is that not not only will give you one project, but ideally it'll give you that whole land expand opportunity that we keep talking big time.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Because with that, with that new logo, that's going to create a whole bunch of different opportunities for, for people to, you know.

[A]

Absolutely. Well, that leads to everything else.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Their website, like you said, hats, clothes, business cards. You don't have to deliver the hats.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you can be in charge of creating the material, putting it on the mockup, selling Them, the idea outfitting everybody, I mean, it's, in my opinion, that's fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, good stuff. And I have that high level control and be like, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam.

[B]

Yeah. And again, that gets the client thinking like, oh, hey, wait a second. I've never envisioned my original shitty logo on a.

[A]

On a hat because it was so damn complex. We never could. With all those. With that spectrum gradient and the drop shadow.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

With that whole triangle prism that we use to emulate our relationship with Led Zeppelin, which was the band we were watching when we first thought of the idea of this back in 1970. Something. Yes. Guess what?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That was too much to tell on a hat. But the new logo, we'll do a good job.

[B]

We'll do a good job of that. Yeah.

[A]

It's so true. The expectations people have. On a damn logo.

[B]

On a damn logo.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So this is silly and this is like a no brainer for us, but I think for some people they might, because this logo project just came to us and it was about 12 years overdue in my opinion, of an overhaul. Right. If not 20. I think that now this is a perfect opportunity to be like, sometimes the obvious to us isn't necessarily as obvious to everybody else.

[B]

So you think, you think there's a whole section of people around this community of this company missed the boat on redesigning this logo.

[A]

Dude, I hate to say it, but whether the town is 500 people or 500,000 people, okay, all the tools out there, like Canva, YouTube, you know, crafty people, Right? And you don't even have to be a professional graphic designer in a small town to look at something and realize it's extremely outdated.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. And you know, putting these kind of like points out there can let you know whether it's a junior, a senior, somebody who's just kind of retired and just kind of like dabbling still in this, putting this out there and being like, holy shit, you know, like, that coffee shop's been there for 25 years. There's an opportunity there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow. That tailor shop has been there for 20 years. You know, Opportunity there. Wow. That tool and die shop or that widget manufacturing shop or that networking shop there. There's businesses everywhere that just kind of like are sitting there. Right? And you have to remind people that this isn't just a matter of like local presence. This is their global presence.

[B]

It's no, nothing is no longer local.

[A]

Nothing there's exactly. So true. Even that local coffee shop has an opportunity to put their online and be a tourist destination next time somebody comes through your sleepy little town.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yes, absolutely.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Trust me, when I go visit towns.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, all these little sleepy. And maybe I'm weird. I like to do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like go out of, you know, out of this area and visit all these smaller towns just to see what makes them work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I always look for the most appealing place to get my coffee from, to get my baking from. I always do.

[B]

Yeah. Somebody who looks like they put some thought into their marketing, and I want.

[A]

To find that cool little place, not that place that will give me food poisoning.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Right. And honestly. And I think everybody's like that. Okay. I think if you go to a cool little town somewhere and there is this coffee shop that just stands out, you're going to want to check that place out. Even if in the end it's really shitty coffee. Yeah. At least you were like, well, when it looked good, coffee was. But now I know. Right. This, this is. We do. Everybody judges books by their covers.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

100.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. It's. It's sad but true.

[A]

Sad but true. Cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Listen, this was all spurred up because, you know, we had a project that was probably 20 years, 12 to 20 years overdue for a rebrand, and nobody picked it up and we waited for it to come to us. So I think that you all have huge opportunities to go out, relook at everything in your area, look at everything in your close network, you know, and start thinking about how you could approach these companies and offer them a whole new level of how to look at their own business, how other people could look at their business, business and. And, you know, promote them, congratulate them and how you want to be part of that journey. Because I think this is very easy pickings.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Big for any graphic designer out there.

[B]

There's gold in them there heels.

[A]

There's gold, buddy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, dude. Yeah. I think that's great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, with that being said.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

My name is Massimo.

[B]

My name is Sean.

[A]

I'm leaving for Kansas. So, yeah, I won't talk to you guys for a week. But. But you won't notice because you're going to hear next week the magic of the Internet. Of the Internet. Stay creative and stay angry. Pe I feel like I'm losing my mind. Everybody in the world died. Please, Lord, give me a sign A I want to be the greatest everybody on their face. I look around, I feel like everybody is to fake is. I make this every day and I'm impatient, hoping one day I blow up from the basement? Statement? The top is so vacant? I don't need that I think is amazing? Waiting for my day? When I'm playing sold out shows For a thousand faces? Hey, give me that crown? Get in my way and you'll be put down? It ain't your place? All this my town? If I want that, then I'll get it? Right now I'm losing it? The noose? If it's the loosey? The stupid me? If you choose to live or choose to dip? You choose to fight? Or lose your grip and lose a gift? I feel like I'm losing my mind? Everybody in the world die? Please, Lord, give me a sign?

[B]

A sign.