AI, Cheap Clients & Bad Logos Are The Best Things to Happen to YOU with Allan Peters & James Barnard

Summary

Episode Summary: "AI, Cheap Clients & Bad Logos Are The Best Things to Happen to YOU with Allan Peters & James Barnard"

Podcast: The Angry Designer – Graphic Design, Freelancing, Branding & Creative Business Podcast
Host: Mon Sean
Guests: Allan Peters & James Barnard
Release Date: May 27, 2025

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1. Introduction and Guest Introduction

The episode kicks off with an enthusiastic introduction from the host, highlighting the rarity of having both Allan Peters and James Barnard on the show simultaneously. The camaraderie between the two guests is evident as they engage in light-hearted banter about their heights and the technical aspects of conducting a seamless conversation across continents.

Unknown Host [00:20]: "You've never had, like, both of you guys together and on the show."

2. The Global vs. Local Market for Designers

Allan Peters and James Bernard delve into the disparities between the Australian and North American markets for graphic designers. James highlights the challenge of lower client budgets in Australia, prompting him to seek out higher-paying clients in North America.

James Bernard [02:18]: "They don't pay any money for graphic design in Australia. I have to reach a bit further afield and start dragging some American clients to my business."

Allan corroborates this by sharing his experiences with global clients, emphasizing that North American clients are more willing to invest in quality design.

3. Value of Logo Design and Educating Clients

The discussion shifts to the significance of logo design in business branding. Allan and James agree that a well-designed logo is pivotal for a company's identity and long-term success. They stress the importance of educating clients on why investing in a quality logo is essential compared to opting for cheaper alternatives.

James Bernard [04:14]: "It's our job to educate them, like, why a good logo can change the face of your business and why you got to spend a little bit more money to get that."

Allan reinforces this by pointing out the abundance of logos in everyday environments and the continual need for companies to update their branding to stay relevant.

Alan Peters [06:10]: "There's a lot of logos... companies are always getting new marketing directors, they're like, 'We need a new logo.'"

4. Positioning Logo Design Against Cheap Alternatives and AI

Addressing the competitive landscape, Allan and James discuss the threats posed by platforms like Fiverr and the rise of AI-generated designs. They emphasize the necessity of positioning logo design as a premium service by highlighting the unique value and expertise that professional designers bring to the table.

James Bernard [11:03]: "It's our job, though, to convince them that the value of a great logo is more than five bucks."

James shares an anecdote about a gym owner who used AI to create a logo that didn't meet his needs, underscoring the pitfalls of opting for cost-effective but subpar solutions.

5. Brand Equity and Rebranding Strategies

The conversation explores the concept of brand equity—the accumulated value and recognition a brand builds over time. Allan and James discuss the delicate balance between rebranding and maintaining brand equity, using examples like Google and The Gap to illustrate successful and controversial rebrands.

Alan Peters [21:35]: "Nostalgia is a powerful drug. And the word we always use for that is brand equity."

They highlight that rebranding efforts should either aim for a strategic overhaul in response to significant business shifts or a gradual evolution to adapt to changing market demands without alienating existing customers.

6. Design Processes: Comparing Allan Peters and James Bernard

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to contrasting the design processes of Allan and James. Allan prefers generating a vast number of sketches (often up to 150) and presenting 15 refined black-and-white vector logos to clients. This method allows clients to have multiple options and be part of the creative process.

Alan Peters [31:12]: "I present 15, and it takes a while to make those... it brings my client into the process so they get to see more options."

In contrast, James Bernard adopts a more streamlined approach inspired by Allan’s methodologies, focusing on quality over quantity. He emphasizes the importance of having a well-defined discovery phase to ensure clients are pre-informed about the design process, thereby reducing revisions and fostering trust.

James Bernard [32:07]: "So in the discovery phase, you have to agree on that with your client... they understand a bit about what's involved."

7. Unique Design and Avoiding Trends

Both designers caution against following fleeting design trends, advocating instead for timeless and scalable logos. James advises designers to imagine how their logos would stand the test of time and to simplify designs to their core elements.

James Bernard [29:56]: "Think about in 10 years time what you would do to strip this logo down and make it even more simple."

Allan adds that simplicity and memorability are crucial for a logo's longevity and effectiveness.

8. Balancing Client Preferences and Design Principles

The hosts discuss the challenges of incorporating personal client preferences that may not align with sound design principles. They share experiences where clients requested specific, often unrelated elements (like a duck) in their logos and discuss strategies to guide clients towards more effective design choices.

James Bernard [47:54]: "When that client said we want a duck in our logo, surely the next part of the conversation was why."

Allan emphasizes the importance of ensuring that every design choice serves the brand's strategic goals and resonates with the target audience.

9. Advice for Aspiring Logo Designers

Towards the end of the episode, Allan and James offer valuable advice to up-and-coming logo designers. James recommends being prepared to defend design choices with rational explanations, ensuring that every element of the logo serves a purpose.

James Bernard [55:00]: "Be prepared to Defend your work... every design will go with a paragraph of why you've done it."

Allan advises taking a leadership role in client interactions, confidently steering projects while respecting the client's vision but also asserting professional expertise.

Alan Peters [57:24]: "Make sure that you play the role of the expert... they came to you because they liked your work."

10. Conclusion

The episode wraps up with a reflection on the dynamic nature of logo design and the importance of adaptability, expertise, and strategic thinking in building a successful creative career. The camaraderie between Allan and James highlights the collaborative spirit necessary in the design community.

Unknown Host [58:37]: "Stay creative and stay angry."

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Key Takeaways

• Educate Clients on Value: It's essential to communicate the long-term benefits of quality logo design over cheaper alternatives.

• Maintain Brand Equity: Rebranding should either strategically overhaul a brand or subtly evolve it to retain existing value.

• Develop a Robust Design Process: Whether presenting multiple options or focusing on streamlined high-quality designs, having a clear process enhances client satisfaction.

• Avoid Fading Trends: Focus on timeless, simple, and scalable designs that withstand the test of time.

• Confidently Lead Projects: Take ownership of the creative process while respecting and guiding client preferences.

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This episode provides deep insights into the intricacies of logo design, client relationships, and the challenges posed by emerging technologies and market pressures. Allan Peters and James Barnard share their expertise and personal experiences, offering invaluable lessons for both seasoned designers and those just starting their creative careers.

Transcript

[Alan Peters]

Foreign.

[Unknown Host]

You're listening to the Angry Designer podcast, where we help frustrated graphic designers crush the industry.

[Alan Peters]

Bull.

[Unknown Host]

And share what it takes to charge what you're worth and build badass, rewarding careers.

What's up, Angry Designers? This is like, like a once in a lifetime treat.

[James Bernard]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

Because while we've had both of our awesome friends here separately, you've never had, like, both of you guys together and on the show. And I, I am talking about Alan Peters and James Bernard.

[James Bernard]

Hello.

[Unknown Host]

Look at this. This is great. This is great.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Right? BFFs over here.

[James Bernard]

You know what's going to be different about this? There's no delay when speaking to Australia. Like a half second delay. Like, it's so annoying having to, like, wait for that little second.

[Alan Peters]

Yes. Yeah.

[James Bernard]

And I can actually have a comfortable conversation.

[Unknown Host]

More like suspense. Yeah. It's like you almost have to think for a second.

[James Bernard]

Yeah. No chance today.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah. Oh.

[Unknown Host]

So the, the one thing I, I have to say, I noticed, you know, while meeting you guys.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

You're both so tall.

[James Bernard]

That's what he said to me last night.

[Unknown Host]

Yes.

[Alan Peters]

I feel like.

[Unknown Host]

I think we need to measure, I think back to back. Here we go.

[Alan Peters]

This is embarrassing.

[Unknown Host]

Here we go.

[James Bernard]

Let's. Let's get this on camera.

[Unknown Host]

Hold on, hold on.

[Alan Peters]

Oh, not by much.

[Unknown Host]

Dude.

[Alan Peters]

What's the ruling?

[Unknown Host]

James is like, like Bernard by a hair. Literally half an inch.

[James Bernard]

He's going on the logos, but I put him on the hike, so. Brilliant.

[Unknown Host]

So, you know, one thing I, I can say that obviously in Canada, we're, we're just.

[James Bernard]

The people are short.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Host]

We're just tiny, you know, like across the SEAS in the U.S. yeah. Well, I can't. We can't say it's the cold because this guy's probably in a colder environment than we are. So, you know, you guys can be in, like, from more different places from like, you know, like, your business models are very similar.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

But I mean, cool. Minnesota, you, you know, beautiful markets.

[James Bernard]

Yeah. Well, that's because they don't pay any money for graphic design in Australia. I have to reach a bit further afield and start dragging some American clients to my business. Otherwise it would be.

[Alan Peters]

It would be hard.

[James Bernard]

It'd be hard to make a living. I moved from London and the first thing I noticed was that they pay about half the rate in the agencies in Australia.

[Alan Peters]

So. Why?

[James Bernard]

I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it's a currency thing. Maybe it's a value thing. Specifically where I am in the Gold Coast, I Reached out to some agencies and I was like, wow, what have we done? We've moved to a place where they're paying half what I was on. You know, where I lived previously. I started panicking a bit. So that's when I really started thinking about trying to go a bit further afield with, like, attracting clients from this place. Yes, a lot more for it.

[Unknown Host]

And your clients global or just North America?

[Alan Peters]

I've done global clients. Most of mine are from North America, though. But I. The only time I ever worked with somebody from Australia, they didn't pay me.

[Unknown Host]

And the beef starts here, ladies and gentlemen. America v. Australia.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah, right. Yes.

[Unknown Host]

Here we go.

[Alan Peters]

No, it wasn't James or anything. No, no. Yeah. But, yeah, I don't know. A little bit from all over, but mainly. Mainly here. I don't know. People like to spend money on logos in the United States.

[James Bernard]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

To that point, you know, our logos still like a viable, you know, business option. I mean, I know you both specialize in this, right.

[Alan Peters]

So.

[Unknown Host]

And we've had this talk before, you know, specializing versus, you know, we kind of have a more of an agency. Is this still viable? You guys have your brands, but for new people, like people who are just starting, like, is this it now? If you were in a different place, would you still go down the same road?

[James Bernard]

I. I believe there is a value for it, but that's. It's our job to sell the value of that to these clients. And, like, obviously some people won't spend lots of money. Sorry, Alan just moved my mic closer because I'm way too close.

[Alan Peters]

When we stood up, we sat back down.

[James Bernard]

Yeah, he distracted me. Yeah. So, you know, it's our job to educate the value of, like, why a good logo can change the face of your business and why you got to spend a little bit more money to get that. And, you know, lots of people start out in, you know, with startups with something they either make themselves or they, you know, don't pay very much money for. And eventually down the line, if that company grows, they'll redo it and have to do it anyway. And why would they not hire someone, like, alone logos that last, you know, design a logo that will stand the test of time and actually, you know, last longer than a couple of years before you have to revamp. So it's our job to kind of educate them, I guess.

[Unknown Host]

So that education, what does that sound like? Well, yeah, just not fancy words.

[James Bernard]

You know, I think, like, the biggest question I get asked all the time is, like, what to you Makes a great logo. And then I'll list off the things so, you know, versatility. Does it work well in one color? Does it work well on a small scale? Are you proud of it? Is the biggest question. Are you proud of the design? Is the face of your business the first thing that people see when they come to your business? And does it inspire trust? And if you can't answer yes to any of those questions, then, you know, try a bit harder.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. How do you educate Al?

[Alan Peters]

Well, to answer the question, like, from the beginning, it was. It was like, do these, do these kids, like, are they stupid to go into logo design right now? I don't think so. I don't think so. And for this reason, like going to a costco, do a 360 and look how many logos you see, right? Go into a Super America or any gas station, do a360. How many logos do you see? Go into Times Square, do a360. How many logos do you see? There's a lot. There's a lot of logos. And all those companies, every time they're getting their new marketing director, they're like, you know what we need to do?

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, new logo.

[Alan Peters]

Get a new logo.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Peters]

And that's not always the case, but it's. That happens quite a bit. And there's always new companies because so many new companies fail, you know, and it's like, it takes a while to get something developed, and everybody wants. Wants that success. And I think more than ever now there is. You people see the value in a good brand. You see it all the time with, like, whether it's, you know, TV shows or celebrities, you know, a brand is more than a logo. It's like everything that gets sported, right? And so they're. They're seeing the power of that good brand. But then the brand identity, the visual, the, the, the logo itself, like, what is it? Like the Louis Vuitton pattern? Like, how iconic is that? Yes. And can it stop you? Like, if you see this logo on a, like the FedEx logo from three blocks away in downtown New York during a rush hour, you can, you can identify that truck at a glance. And, and people are like, I. I want that. And so, yeah, for sure. I think there's. There's thousands and thousands and thousands of probably millions of opportunities on his planet for logo design. And I think right now is the best time ever to get into it, because in the past, you'd have to, like, work at these agencies, work your way up. You're Kind of in the shadows, behind the scenes, where now, like, a dude like James Bernard here can make videos that see millions of people. And you have to work. Work your way up to get to that point. But he's world famous now. He's world famous, and he's getting clients.

[James Bernard]

Design conference famous. I'm not lying there.

[Alan Peters]

There are so many people, I bet you, James, that you, like, probably walk through Seattle and people would be like, you're James Bernard. Holy cow, dude. I got stopped at Costco the other day, and they're like, alan Peters. I was like on the phone. I'm like. The guy's like. He's like, yeah, fix them logos, dude.

[James Bernard]

Amazing.

[Alan Peters]

And look at the day before. I was at a restaurant. Somebody. It just these things. I'm not saying. I'm not. I'm not like, alan Peters, look at me. It's not that. It's just like, there's. You can. You don't need to have that giant agency backing. And if you have. If you know how to use social media and you know how to market yourself, which you can learn online, you can learn. You can learn it all on social media. You can build up that personal brand and you can start a business at a young age. I know kids like Riley Cran. You ever hear Riley Cran? He started this font foundry. Font foundry. Yeah, that's right. A type foundry called Lost Type. And Lost Type was. It was like these free fonts, and they were used on. Unless you use them on, like, big brands and stuff like that, then you'd have to pay for them. And they're on, like, Bud Light ads and billboards all around the country. And this kid was a homeschooled, and he was doing this when he's 19 years old. 19 years old. And the guy was this kid I was working at Target. I was like, around 29 or 30. And he's sending me. This is back in the day, AIM instant messages. And he's like. Because I had that post on my website and. Yeah. And he was like. He's like, hey, dude, what's going on? My name's Riley Crane. I was like, check out this. And he. The thing is, he had good work. He had two parents that were both graphic designers. And so he. One of his. You love this. His dad designed props for movies. All the fun logos in the back background.

[James Bernard]

That's my dream job.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah, I know.

[James Bernard]

It's your dream job.

[Unknown Host]

That would be fun.

[Alan Peters]

So Riley grew up around all this. And at 19 years old, he has, like, this business that's, that's booming. And, and anybody can do that now. I like it that this kid, I don't know if he was homeschooled and then didn't go to college. And, and he's, he's like, was running this huge type foundry that was like world renowned.

[James Bernard]

Wow.

[Unknown Host]

Wow. That's actually. That's awesome.

[Alan Peters]

It's wild. He'd be a fun person to have on his. Him. His brother's a tattoo artist and then his dad. The three of them spoke at Creative self, like in 2014 or 2015.

[James Bernard]

We'll have to look that up.

[Unknown Host]

That's just kind of cool.

[Alan Peters]

Riley Cran. Okay. And the crayon. Fam.

[Unknown Host]

The crayon. So. So, okay, so with this being said, then how can you position logo design as a premium service when, I mean, you've got number one, Fiverr, who's like, you know, everybody's enemy Fiber hates designers. Okay. They're trying to kill us all and they're doing people there. 50 bucks. And then you've got, you know, in the world of everybody's thinking, AI is just like, it'll do it for me. Granted, I've got my own feelings about those kinds of customers, but how do you position, you know, what you guys do or even, you know, what we do back agency in this crazy world that we've got?

[James Bernard]

I mean, there are always certain types of clients that are just not willing to spend that budget. They've already got it in their mind what they want. I don't want to call my gym out at the minute, but the owner of the gym the other day, okay, he starting a new side hustle. He goes, dude, check this out. And he showed me this logo. All I did was type it into chat GPT and it came out with this thing.

[Unknown Host]

And I was like, oh, yeah, exactly.

[Alan Peters]

Oh, God.

[Unknown Host]

You don't know how that bodybuilder with.

[James Bernard]

Three arms, I looked at the logo and like, it served a purpose for him. I guess there were all sorts of issues with it. And this is a part of it. Okay, is that like you come to the expert to stop these issues affecting you down the line and to get the design that you want from the start of your company. So you're like running with. What's the expression? Like you're, you're hitting the ground running.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Okay. So you're not having to worry about this down the line. You know, nothing's going to stop people going to places like Fiverr and these, you know, race to Zero websites. It's Our job, though, to convince them that the value of a great logo is more than five bucks. It's worth this, it's worth that. And then for me, anyways, once we've got them in the door with the logo, it's about upselling services on top of this, it's about creating a visual identity, not just this one mark. So have you thought about where this is going to go? Have you thought about what you might need in terms of marketing collateral? So there's always extra budget we can kind of squeeze out there. But yeah, it is difficult. Just, you know, people will, you know, unless you educate them on the value of it, they're just going to go to the cheap option and it's our job to stop them from doing that.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Do you think it's easier to just find a customer who values it more than trying to convince somebody who obviously thinks AI can do a great job at their plan?

[James Bernard]

I mean, well, half of my leads come through people finding me rather than me finding people.

[Unknown Host]

Very cool.

[James Bernard]

I'm. I'm using my platforms to educate on these issues.

[Unknown Host]

Good.

[James Bernard]

So when someone's coming to me now, they're already kind of gone through the funnel. They understand a bit about what's involved and potentially the value of, you know, what they're going to cost. So there's no surprises really, when they've got to that point.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

If I'm like cold calling someone, though, and saying, oh, your logo is kind of crap, John, upgrade it a little bit.

[Alan Peters]

That's a different conversation there.

[James Bernard]

So, yeah, I don't tend to do that. But, yeah, that, that gym owner, I was kind of mortified when I saw it and he could see it in my face, you know what I mean?

[Unknown Host]

I was like, and he knows what you do?

[Alan Peters]

Oh, yeah, exactly.

[Unknown Host]

Oh, he does.

[James Bernard]

But he didn't.

[Unknown Host]

But he was like.

[James Bernard]

He was like, I can't afford you the balls. Yeah, yeah, but next time just, hey.

[Unknown Host]

John Lennon, I got this song I wrote, you know, like.

[James Bernard]

Yeah, exactly.

[Alan Peters]

You know what scares me? So there's all these logos that were like, they weren't great, but then later on the company is successful. Like the original Google logo compared to the current KUGA logo.

[Unknown Host]

Right, right.

[Alan Peters]

And then, like, somebody awesome comes along and they're like, okay, I will try and make better what you started with. And there's a lot of logos like this out there. I'm thinking 10, 20 years from now when all, like, all of the companies that were like, I'm just gonna get a logo done with chat GPT and they have to get their logo refined.

[James Bernard]

And, and trademark checked as well. Making sure that nothing's being plagiarized using ChatGPT, which is sourcing designs from other people. Surely there'll be pinches or something.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah, yeah. Interesting.

[Unknown Host]

That's actually an interesting point that you got there. I mean we, we do a lot of work with tech startups, but not at the startup stage.

[Alan Peters]

Right, right.

[Unknown Host]

And I think that's the key here. Like we wait till they're, you know, they're graduated to a tech grown up, we call it and then there's generally a big mess in place like, like shitty fiber logos, you know, horrible messaging across their, you know, website and their, their, their PowerPoints and everything's different. So there's a new appreciation because they realize they now have to kick it up a notch. So this might almost be doing us a favor.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

In that sense saying that you know these companies by starting off there like your gym guy. Right. Who knows if he's going to end up, you know, creating a $100 million company with a AI generated shitt.

[James Bernard]

Wrong.

[Unknown Host]

But there's going to come a point where he will be able to afford you and then it's a sense of pride.

[James Bernard]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

So is it possibly just then, then hitting companies at the right time in their journey?

[Alan Peters]

Yes.

[James Bernard]

A lot of my clients are exactly in that boat. If someone who has used something off the shelf or something they did really quickly and they've grown and expanded, but they always get to a point where they become ashamed of their logo and they put it on a business card and then they're like embarrassed, you know, as the stakes raise in that company and they're dealing with more and more higher profile and high paying clients and that logo suddenly is getting a little bit awkward when you're handing over a business card and it looks pretty terrible, right? Oh, we need something better. We need something that really represents us.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

And yeah, a lot of my clients are like that. They're coming to me at that stage wanting to upgrade.

[Unknown Host]

What is the ready to upgrade. And then you're right, they're more proud of it now.

[James Bernard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Host]

They're grown up. Maybe the whole maturity thing kicks in. Right? Yeah.

[Alan Peters]

Or maybe they hired a creative director internally or something or somebody with a level of taste and understands the difference. You know, sometimes that's that.

[Unknown Host]

Have you ever, have you ever dealt with a creative director who almost seems like they've helped the company take a step back.

[James Bernard]

No comment.

[Alan Peters]

I know that I'm Like, I'm not.

[James Bernard]

Going to turn that in the foot.

[Alan Peters]

Let me tell you about my client that I hate.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, that's.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

All right. Oh, that's funny.

[Alan Peters]

They're burning bridges.

[Unknown Host]

So we all know the answer to this.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

All right, well then, then how can, how can people sell the value, the ROI on, on upgrading a logo, upgrading their brand? Like, this might be a really obvious question, but, you know, at the same time, I don't. I'm not sure a lot of our listeners would even realize how to do this.

[James Bernard]

Yeah. So I'm working with a guy.

[Alan Peters]

No, no, I know Chris Sto. And like, you're like reading all that stuff constantly, right? You're on it.

[James Bernard]

I'm working with a guy right now. His name is Rob o' Rourke. He's like the sales funnel guy. And he got me to do this on my website. He, he loved, like, the fact that I had testimonials on my site. Yeah. You know, of all these great clients. It's like, but what did your logo do for their business, really? I'm like, it's hard to put like a monetary or a value based figure on like, what a logo or a good brand can do for a business.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[James Bernard]

So this is great. I had a client who I rebranded and then he went on like all of their news articles and found out that they raised $6.8 million in seed funding after they rebranded. So all he did on my website was to say, instead of putting the client name underneath, you put client name raised $6.8 million in seed round. And it just suddenly upped the stakes of like, what this rebrand may have done. Now, I don't personally have anything to do with helping them raise all that money, but did that happen after they rebranded? Yes, it did. So, you know, a way of, like, phrasing it. Some people might find that a little bit icky, but I think it's, I think that's okay to say, like, you know, just showing like, the quality of the company that you're now working with and what types of clients that you're dealing with.

[Unknown Host]

You know, there is something true to this and not in the same light. In the past 26 years of business we've had, we have a very similar kind of clientele. As you know, we're niche, yada yada yada. Um, we've had 18 customers be bought out, really, in the past 26 years. Right. And it's like. And, and so there's some truth to this. Not saying it's only because of what we, what we did. But I think it's what we started.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

And that's what I've noticed is once you help a company rebrand, once you help them identify their messaging, you know, their position, the whole company rallies in the same direction.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

And you know, that's, that's one thing. I mean, we now put that in our pitch that we let people know that, you know, we've been in business as long and this is how many of our companies have been acquired, you know, sold out. So there's something qualitative, not provable.

[James Bernard]

Right.

[Unknown Host]

That we have a part of. And it is part of that process.

[James Bernard]

You do need to be selling the value of what you do rather than what you do. You're selling holes in wood, not drill bits. Right, right. So. And that's a hard thing to, you know, determine with a branding project like that. Return on investment.

[Unknown Host]

Yes.

[James Bernard]

To actually put a figure behind that, it's a really difficult thing for a client to do. So you have to do it in other ways. And I think that's a great example.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Actually, you know, this company was now trusted so much and valued so much that somebody else paid millions of dollars for it.

[Alan Peters]

That's.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, absolutely. And now a word from our sponsor.

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[Alan Peters]

I think brand equity is a really powerful thing. So like, let's say you start with that Fiverr logo, right? And you have that Fiverr logo. Like the first Google logo. The first Google logo. It's not a Fiverr logo and the lady is actually pretty famous who designed it. So I should. Yes, the first Google logo, it was like, it had like drop shadows and it was.

[Unknown Host]

It was true to the times skewer most.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah, there was a lot of stuff going on, a lot of Photoshop trickery and fun. Well, as much like when that changed, it got rid of so much friction and made it easier to reproduce. It was sans serif. Right. It looked more modern. It could be flat one color it like, you could just make it like a light gray and it function that way you can add, stamp it in concrete, die, cut it, do all the things you need to do. Right. But I'm guarantee you there are a lot of people at Google when they rebranded that were like, what are you doing? I hate the new. Because they had so much. Yeah, the. It's. Nostalgia is a powerful drug. And the, the word we always use for that is brand equity. It's like the. It's. It's nostalgia for a brand. Right?

[James Bernard]

Yeah.

[Alan Peters]

And then it builds over time. So you're filling this glass with. And you can't buy that. You can't buy 20 years of brand equity and just buy it through a media buyer or something like that. Brands wish they had that. Right. And so it's, it's tricky when you're doing those, those rebrands as far as ROI and like, balancing that with like, do you, do you take the risk on losing all your brand equity and starting from scratch, or do you like, try and keep the brand equity and just slightly refine and like finding that level of evolution.

[James Bernard]

Yeah.

[Alan Peters]

When there's a lot of money riding on it is at the beginning, it's easier. Like you were talking about seed investments or like, I've worked on a lot of like working within. Like people are starting a brand and they're like looking for investors and you help them come up with a look and they land their investors boom. And then they're off to the races. That's easy to like, you're like, okay, there's the obvious ROI in that, you know, but when you're dealing with something like this, it's. You see it in the stocks, you know, like the public. Usually there's. There's little dips. Even if Something's like a really amazing rebrand. I know Airbnb or something like that. Or like one is where they like really clean it up. Google was a great example of it. But I guarantee there is pushback. It's hard to do a rebrand, to not like shock people a little bit because of brand equity. It, like, it plays a part. It plays a role on how much you transform a brand. So sometimes you just gotta go in there with the hatchet and do some hardcore surgery.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Peters]

You just can't. You can't like refine something that's just like God awful.

[Unknown Host]

Well, okay, that's a good question. What signs or when. When do you lean towards a brand overhaul versus a brand evolution in your opinion? So you know, it's like, okay, well, in this situation, Twitter had a lot of equity.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah. Right.

[Unknown Host]

So it's nice to take it up and clean it up versus other situations where it's like Uber completely. They. They did a 180 or 360 when they. And nobody even recognized it anymore. And that was in a really short time period.

[Alan Peters]

That was.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Alan Peters]

They switch it twice.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, yeah. It was confusing the hell out of everybody. And so when the Gap.

[James Bernard]

Oh, well, I always think the Gap did that on purpose and changed it so bad.

[Alan Peters]

It was so. It was just.

[Unknown Host]

And just like such a backlash.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah, you're right. You're right.

[Unknown Host]

And nobody could have let that. Like a PR move or something.

[James Bernard]

Yeah, maybe. For sure.

[Alan Peters]

We love the old logo.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

History and our roots.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Interesting. It's actually brilliant. That's a good conspiracy theory. But yeah. When, when, when does one decide to. Or recommend evolving versus blowing it up?

[Alan Peters]

I, I think a lot of small brands are like. Or even what I call like medium sized brands, like where they don't. They don't. Maybe they have 30 employees or 50 employees or something like that. They think that everybody knows their brand, but they don't. You know, they're like these small little companies and, and they. Not to knock them or anything like that, but I don't think that there's the brand equity other than the people who work there and maybe their families and stuff like that that know the brands like they know them as opposed to something like, like a big billion dollar brand, you know, like, like something that you see everywhere, like rebranding Target or Walmart or Kmart or. What do you got in Australia?

[James Bernard]

So many. Target. Target, we have this. When a business reaches the point where there are so many touch points for the logo.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

And often the old one Just doesn't cut the mustard anymore. Like, it's not versatile enough. You need to. That's the point where you need that evolution. Because now you're dealing with, like, the app icon and the favicon and all these different places where the logo will go. You need more than the logo. You need a system.

[Unknown Host]

Yes.

[James Bernard]

I think that's when the evolution comes in. You need scalable formats for all these different things.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

So things like with the Google logo. I watched the Internship the other day, the movie with Owen Wilson and the internship. Yeah, it's the old Google logo font. I was like, man, that looks dated already. And that movie's like, maybe 10 years old or something. Maybe a bit older. It's like, Jesus Christ. The Google logo used to look like that. How bad did that look? And, you know, that was absolutely cracking. Example of, like, when they needed to update something. It was just so in the 90s, isn't it? There's lots of. Lots of businesses that came out in.

[Alan Peters]

The 90s, but they did evolve it. They didn't. They didn't start from scratch. No, it's not like, they're just like, hey, so here's something.

[James Bernard]

And the colors.

[Alan Peters]

They kept the colors. It looks. If you put them side by side, you're like, okay, I see. Like, it doesn't look like a total departure, but.

[Unknown Host]

But the Google logo. And because it's. It's, in essence, it's changed a lot.

[Alan Peters]

It has.

[Unknown Host]

It is. Sorry. It has been updated and evolved a lot.

[Alan Peters]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

But it is essentially the exact same logo from the start. They haven't, you know, almost and dropped everything and just went with a fancy G and. And, you know, kind of made it an icon and dropped that. Well, I guess with Gmail they may have. Or the G suite, but in that situation, like, they just kept evolving their own logo, which plays huge part to their equity.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah, right.

[Unknown Host]

And I think, oddly, Yahoo did as well. Right. They just kept on evolving their same.

[Alan Peters]

Or did they changed?

[Unknown Host]

I think they change.

[Alan Peters]

They had like, some yellow, and then now they have a purple one with exclamation.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, you're right, you're right, you're right. So I'm just wondering if there's a clear sign that it's like, no, no, guys, you got to go in a whole new direction now. Like, there's a big F up that happened, and we need to go in a new direction.

[Alan Peters]

I could see something like that. Like, if a company was trying to show that they were maybe, like, making a huge shift, like GameStop or something like they're, they're like in bankruptcy. There was like doing awful right now. Yeah. Maybe they were going to go to like selling all retro games. They're not going to. But like, like, like, like Funko Land used to be back in the day or something like that. Like one of these old or like a Mom and pop, something like that. And they wanted to show that they were making a major change. I could see rebranding to reflect that. But if they're just staying the same and they're just trying to be a little bit more modern and just get rid of some friction, keep updating.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

You know, let me talk about the Kia logo. Has to do example of that, isn't it? You know, wow. Move away from like a budget car into like.

[Alan Peters]

That's a good example.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, that's great.

[James Bernard]

You love that one.

[Unknown Host]

I, I do love that logo. Thank you very much.

[Alan Peters]

I know, I know.

[Unknown Host]

And I, I've received a lot of hassles on Reddit. How are you doing? But, and again, I love. The reason why is because I felt the old logo was their budget brand logo.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

And the car evolved so much and okay. The new logo, I think maybe when we played around with it, we came up with a better version, tweaked it. Okay.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Will Patterson did a great job. But I mean, it reflects now what the company is now, not what it used to be.

[James Bernard]

They wanted to change their story.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Right. They. They don't want to be associated and their budget.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Host]

And I think that was a big thing. Right. So. Yeah, that was a fun example. Yeah, that was a really fun example. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was good. What do you, what do you guys think? There's, what's one thing in your opinion that designers, new designers these days are getting wrong about?

[James Bernard]

Logos, trends, designing for trends, you know.

[Unknown Host]

Didn'T even wait on that one.

[James Bernard]

Yeah, well, you see all the time, don't you? It's like people like see something cool on dribble or behance and they copy it and they copy that style. Particularly with like typography within logos.

[Unknown Host]

Yes.

[James Bernard]

Picking a cool font that's popular right now. Very true. Following that and you're just dooming yourself as soon as that, you know, becomes unfashionable. Like, I chatted with Alan maybe three years ago on an Instagram live, and one of the best pieces of advice he gave me was when you're designing, think about in 10 years time what you would do to strip this logo down and make it even more Simple. I think, you know, with that future facing head on, you know, when someone in 15 years wants to rebrand the company, what are they going to do to your design to make it more simple?

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

And as soon as you've got to the point where it's as simple as humanly possible, yet doesn't infringe on anybody else's work, then you're onto an absolute winner.

[Unknown Host]

Let's talk about process.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Okay. So, James, I know you are of the Mindset One logo. Here's your concept, and you love it, right? And they're going to.

[Alan Peters]

They're going to.

[Unknown Host]

They're going to smack it down right here.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

And I know you present multiple logos, right? And you're going in and. And. And, you know, you're showing 5, 10, 15. Okay, go.

[James Bernard]

Here's the difference. Here's the difference between me and him, because I actually stole his process from his book. The brand noun process. I love it now. I use it all the time. There's a difference in that. I think you present 9 or 15 sketches.

[Alan Peters]

15.

[James Bernard]

15 sketches. It's ridiculous amount of work. Like, how do you do that? And for me, personally, I can't draw for shit. If I was to present my sketches inverted commas to a client, they would laugh me out of the building. I would be embarrassed to share what I put down on paper before I do design. So for me, it's about doing doodles and line connections to see if, like, a concept or a connection holds up. Then I'm into the software as fast as to make it look polished. And then to show that I know what I'm doing when I'm selling that into a client, they've kind of, you know, it's the real deal. And with your process, the brand name process, this has cut so many corners for me. It's fantastic.

[Unknown Host]

Yes.

[James Bernard]

Do you want to talk about the process or can I be a fanboy and, like, I'm going to hype him?

[Alan Peters]

Okay. I'm just listening to the process.

[James Bernard]

Okay. So he's shocked.

[Unknown Host]

He's like, wow, just doing it all.

[James Bernard]

For two things I get with a discovery call with a client. Now, one of those is a success statement for the project. So that's a paragraph that basically sums up the project, what they're looking to achieve, what the style should be like. Do I avoid colors? Little things like that. It's like five lines, and that sits at the top of my Illustrator document, so that while I'm working, I can refer back to it all the time. And it Grounds me, stops me drifting off in directions that my shapes. And the other thing is Alan's brand noun process, where you come up with a list of things that are pre approved before you even put pencil to paper. So it's harder because in the discovery phase, you have to agree on that with your client, and you have to come prepared with some ideas to give the client suggestions to knock back. But the point is, they're knocking you back in the discovery phase rather than at the design phase because they feel like they can be part of the creative process by doing that. But they're not designers. You are.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

So they shouldn't be, you know, knocking you back in the design phase because that's your area of expertise, not this. So by getting that list of things pre approved, it allows you. It gives you so much power and clarity. When you go into the design phase, you're not working with things that they might not like down the line. Like, I've. I've designed logos, and I thought it was an amazing style, like a lightning bolt on the logo, only to send it over to the client, and the client doesn't want to use a lightning bolt. And they never did.

[Unknown Host]

Yes.

[James Bernard]

How? They just had that conversation. I could have saved weeks of time by having that list in place. I know that they're going to approve the concept, and there's no surprises for them. They kind of know what's coming. So it's just. It's such an amazing process. I can't believe I wasn't doing it sooner.

[Unknown Host]

You left him speechless.

[James Bernard]

Sorry.

[Alan Peters]

Come on.

[James Bernard]

I've read his book. I've read his book. Yeah.

[Alan Peters]

So here. Here is. Here is the advantage of James process over mine. James can go in there and he has a little bit extra work. So he makes his logos, right? And he does the brand on process. He gets all set up, right? And he finds it, and he makes one logo that he's like, this is perfect. They hired me. I'm the expert. I'm gonna give them what I think they should go with. I might do a bunch, but I'm gonna only show them one. And then I'm gonna make sure they like it by doing all these badass mockups. Hey, look, it mocked up on your own shirt, right?

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Alan Peters]

Oh, look, is that your Porsche I see with the logo on the hood? Oh, it sure is. Right? And they're like, damn, James, I'm so glad we hired you. Or. So if they approve it, James just skipped like he was playing a board game, and I'm playing against him in life. And I'm way the hell at the beginning. And he just took some, like, super ladder. To the end is just like, invoice. Yeah, invoice, baby. Let's make it to the end. Yeah, yeah. You want final files?

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, they're already done.

[Alan Peters]

And then that way James can crank through more. He can. As long as he has clients that trust his expertise, he can potentially crank through a lot more projects than I can make and make a lot more money. And you guys are like, why the hell would use your stupid process over that? Alan Peters, dumbass. All right, here's my strategy. Let's see if I can make this. All right, So I present 15 ideas. I do not present any mockups. I do not present typography. I present 15 black and white vector logos. I go past the sketch phase, so I do rough sketches. I used to do detail, like, with the Egan project at that time, back in, like, 2015, 16, I was doing detailed sketches, but I found I sometimes stuff just didn't translate as well. Yeah, I'm like, you know, I just want to do, like, full on, like, finished looking black and white vectors. I still call it a sketch face, though. Yeah, right. So I present 15, and it takes a while to make those. Like, right now I'm working on an awesome project for a client, and they're like, hey, can I see stuff? And I already have all my sketches done. I know the 15 logos, but I've only made 10 of them. And so they're just gonna have to wait till I'm back from this thing and I'm gonna make them next week and. Yeah, yeah, and they'd probably be happier if I just sent them one, it was all mocked up and done. They'd be like, yeah, I got it now, but what if they don't like it? You know, that's part of it right now. So a lot of the work put into, like, all the mocks and stuff, I'm not doing that to any of these. I'm just focusing on these 15 and the advantages. Number one, it brings my client into the process so they get to see more options. That usually helps make the sale. So there's less pushback, less rounds of revision. Sometimes if they're forced to do something that they don't want to do, they'll create like 17 rounds of revision trying to get it to what they want it to be. And they might not be happy in the end. That might not happen. James is a very good designer. I'm not dissing James. Yeah, all right, let's say me and James are going up on a pitch, toe to toe. And Nike is like, I don't know if I want James or Alan, and Alan's even more expensive than James. But look, Alan's going to give us 15 directions. Maybe we'll go with Alan. It gives me the ability to possibly win over an agency or another person because I. Of what I'm like, the options I'm going to give and bring them into the process. I talk a lot with my clients about. My process is built this way so that I can bring you into the process. You can be a part of it. And a lot of agencies and designers in general, I was always told, never do that. Never do that. Never, like, never. Never design with a client. Never popping open your computer and make revisions with a client. They're like, never do that. You're stupid if you do that, Alan. But I do that stuff, and I've had a lot of success for it. Every designer's process is going to be a lot different, and they're going to come up with a process that works best for them. James looked to a lot of different designers probably, and read a lot of books and stuff like that and has tried a lot of different things. A lot of trial and error, and he found the right thing that worked for his, like, like what he likes to do. What makes him comfortable. Yeah. What. What makes his business run well. Yep. And for me, I probably could make more money doing it. James Wayne, however, there's also part of me that really likes pushing myself hard on because I, I like, I, I just love designing logos so much. I just like making them. For me, it's not like I'm roofing houses. I'm like, shit, I'm gonna roof 15 houses for every roof that, that you do. James. It's not, it's not that at all. It's more like I, I just really. It's like, it's. For me, it's as like such a play time. That's like my favorite part of the project is ideation. And so I'm almost like just like eating a bunch of candy as like a little kid. Just like. Yeah, I just, I just love that that part of it and, and it, I end up creating better work because of it. For me, for my process. Yeah. So I guess that's a really long answer to say that. I don't think either of us are doing it wrong at all.

[Unknown Host]

Absolutely not.

[Alan Peters]

And in the end, in the end, James is going to retire before I am and my wife's going to leave me.

[James Bernard]

Because of this 15 process. Just kidding. I think when you do, like, 15 versions to a client, it blows. That blows my mind.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

That's two questions for you. Okay, so first one.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Is how, within those 15 designs.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Are you 100% proud of all of those designs that you're putting out? If the client chose the 15th worst one, in your opinion, do you feel pride in that project?

[Alan Peters]

All right.

[James Bernard]

Or would you try and convince them on.

[Alan Peters]

On another one? So, okay, when I do this, I do, like, 150 sketches. 100. 150.

[Unknown Host]

I know, I know.

[Alan Peters]

And then I pick the 15 that I like, and then I make them.

[James Bernard]

Yeah.

[Alan Peters]

And usually, like, 12 of them are good. And usually. Or. Or maybe 10 of them and five of them suck. And then I'll see it afterwards. I'll get them all done. I'm like, well, I can't present that.

[James Bernard]

I don't.

[Alan Peters]

I don't want to pick that one. Yeah, I know they'll pick that one. So I'll.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Peters]

Board. And I'll. And I'll keep trying to better them. I'll be like, can I do better? Can I do better? And I'll push myself up until my deadline with my client, and then that's what I'll pronounce. I'll just. I'll give them my best. In the end of the day. At the end of the day, are there going to be some that are better than others? Yes. Are there going to be any that I'd be angry or, like, upset about that if they picked. No, I won't. I won't. I'll push off the client. Even if they're like, have we got a deadline? I'm like, we gotta. I'm not there yet. Yeah. And it's really important to me to have that also. Then I never, ever just send a PDF. I'm like, here you go. Pick one. Then you would end up with a client that's like, oh, I don't know what I'm even looking. There's so much here. It's like information overload. However, if you present it and you have a process to your presentation, you're like, I did this and this and this and that led me to this and then these. And then the inevitable solution is this one.

[James Bernard]

You're talking those designs through the client on a call, explaining them all and going through.

[Alan Peters]

Yep. Steering them. Steering them. Trying to the right one.

[Unknown Host]

You don't do that.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

I found that when I present something And I do all my mockups and it's one PDF presentation. I send it over. The etymology and the rationale is inside the presentation. But I found that when I'm on the call with a client and I'm showing the logo and they don't like it, the feedback isn't honest because I'm staring at their reaction, seeing like if they hate it or not and they're not comfortable. And also I want them to sit with the design for at least two days because change is jarring, you know what I mean? Especially if it's a rebrand and you change the face of their company. They need to sleep on the design. The client sends me feedback within like the first hour. That's a massive red flag. They haven't considered it. They're knee jerk reacting to something that they've just seen. They need to sleep on it a couple of times.

[Alan Peters]

Yep.

[James Bernard]

That PDF presentation gets sent over, they have their knee jerk reaction, they calm down, they sleep, they think about it for a little bit and then the feedback that comes back is more honest, it's more considered. Then we get on a call and we'll have a chat about it and then I can kind of start defending my work. If I think their ideas are rubbish, I talk to them about it. But within those 15 that you present, there's one thing to be sure of, and they're not going to reject all 15 within 15 options. They're going to like one of them.

[Alan Peters]

Right.

[James Bernard]

So you kind of are genius in a way.

[Alan Peters]

I haven't picked three of them.

[James Bernard]

Right. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Oh, okay.

[James Bernard]

Almost guaranteeing that there's something there for them by giving them that much choice.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

My question is to you, how long is that first lead in process from an end of the discovery call to presenting the 15 designs?

[Alan Peters]

I usually ask for six weeks and I've started to ask for more. I've asked for, yeah, two to three months now because I'm like, I'm like, it's start. Because I've been just taking on more projects and so I'm trying to really. I'd be realistic about it because I'm like, I'm not going to have that.

[Unknown Host]

Are you working on multiple projects at the same time? Like they, they work parallel to one another?

[Alan Peters]

Yeah. I'll work on up to like six projects at once. Really?

[Unknown Host]

Wow.

[Alan Peters]

So I'll have like, I'll be, I'll have, I like to have. Since some designers work in like notebooks and stuff like that and like beautiful sketchbooks, I'll have Just like printer paper on clipboards. And I'll. For one for each project, and then I'll. I'll print off my brand nouns in the corner, small. And I just have sketches going. And I'll get bored with one. I'll flip and then move on to something else. Yeah, yeah. Or. Or work on, like. Okay, I should probably make all those, like, final logo files or whatever that I hate doing, you know, like, do that. And then, like, I'm like, okay, too much of that. And then back to the logo sketch. Right. Try to balance it out. Yeah, yeah. So one time. One time I was working on City of Shoreview, and I'd love to show you this. The. I have them on my computer. I can show you the. But I don't have it in. In my book or anything like that. They picked a direction. So I presented 15, and they picked a direction. That was pretty bad. It was pretty bad. I shouldn't have presented it.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. And Murphy's Law.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, dang. I'm like. But I wasn't gonna let it. I wasn't gonna let it end there because I knew there was potential. I just had done a crappy job putting it together. I knew there was. I knew there was potential in what was there. And so it's just like that. That's the final one. Well, that's.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, that's a great one.

[Alan Peters]

You want to see what, like the. The one that they picked, though, that turned into. I. I sat there to see.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, but.

[James Bernard]

Yeah, I'll show.

[Alan Peters]

I'll show you both.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Peters]

But came a long way. It looks exactly the same. It's still three trees on top of river or like. Or like those ripples coming in. But this is like geometric balance. It has those. All of a sudden, has like, things like arrows, and it has. Everything's pointing your eye inwards. The ripples are going up, the arrows are pointing down. Yeah. Everything's pulling your eye to the center. Yeah, that's cool. There's. So there's. I. I'm just. At the end of the day, I try and make every project my best project. And I. I'm not gonna. If something. Let's say, like, they pick a bad one and they will force it to be bad. I will fight tooth and nail. Not. Not. Not negatively, but, like, I will just.

[James Bernard]

I will give them their deposit back.

[Alan Peters]

I'm not going to fire the client.

[James Bernard]

Yeah.

[Alan Peters]

But I will. I will work so hard to try and make it good.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Alan Peters]

I just. To try and Make. Because even if I don't put my portfolio, my name's gonna be attached to that. And it's. It's gotta be high quality.

[James Bernard]

Yeah, definitely.

[Alan Peters]

And that's one of my favorite logos I've ever designed.

[Unknown Host]

That's beautiful. It is. It's a beautiful logo. Isn't that funny? It started out as, like, you're hated.

[Alan Peters]

It was the worst. It was the worst one on. Out of the 15.

[Unknown Host]

No.

[Alan Peters]

Yes.

[James Bernard]

So there's still room, like, wiggle room within your process to get them in the right direction.

[Alan Peters]

That's why I call that black and white 15 vector. That's why I call it sketches.

[James Bernard]

Yeah.

[Alan Peters]

I'm like, there is room for improvement on all of them. Okay.

[James Bernard]

Six weeks is a chunky amount of time.

[Alan Peters]

I.

[James Bernard]

So mine's 2.

[Unknown Host]

2.

[James Bernard]

2.

[Alan Peters]

Wow.

[James Bernard]

Turnover from discovery to the first presentation. Again, it's one.

[Unknown Host]

And you're overlapping projects as well.

[James Bernard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I used to have about three or four running. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm waiting on feedback from one project. Another one is.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, absolutely. Same deal.

[James Bernard]

You'll switch if you get hit with Alan's. It's so much better because, you know, you get bored on a job and you have creative block and you need a break.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

You still got to work to the next one and move over. Whereas me, I go for a walk. Like, gotta come back from my walk and carry on with this life, the same one, and try and feel inspired again.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

But two weeks, I feel there's, like a good amount of time. It's 14 sleeps. You know, you don't believe the work you come back to after having a.

[Unknown Host]

Nap, you can tell that it's just the kids, Right? That's right. It's only 14 sleeps.

[James Bernard]

Yeah. Till Christmas.

[Unknown Host]

So how. How important, in your opinion is. Is the personal preferences of the people that you're creating these logos for? And. And. And where I'm going with this, believe it or not. Well, 20 years ago, and we joke about this, I had a customer ask me to put a duck in his logo. No. Nothing to do with his business. His wife liked ducks. And. And so we had to take this ridiculous request. Made it work.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

But it made no sense. But now it's a big part of our process. It's trying to take in their personal preferences as well as, you know, what they're trying to achieve. Business. Am I crazy? Are you guys in doing this?

[Alan Peters]

I thought you're gonna say it's part of our process now. We put ducks in all of them. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

We managed to put one duck in every logo.

[James Bernard]

We did negative space.

[Alan Peters]

We sneak it in there, it's everywhere. Instead of a circle R, it's a circle duck down there. Good.

[James Bernard]

The quacks are starting the show. But, you know, when that client said we want a duck in our logo, surely the next part of the conversation was why. Yeah, yeah, it was that a real great reason to have a, you know, a duck in your business. What does that mean to you? What's that going to mean in five years if you divorce your wife? You know, those kind of future proof questions, you gotta start, you know, ask them the question and you don't do it in a negative way. Saying, that's a shit idea. You say, well, let's, let's talk about why you want that and then massage them in the right direction, hopefully.

[Unknown Host]

That's actually a really good point. And, and to your point, I did not do that because it was within my first three to five years of business. And we were just, we were people at that point.

[James Bernard]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

So good point. Because nowadays, yeah, if somebody asked me for a duck, I'd be like, what the. Yeah, it's just doesn't work.

[James Bernard]

Interesting.

[Unknown Host]

Do you take it at all, like, into consideration?

[Alan Peters]

I always try and remind the client that whether I like something or they like something isn't the most important thing. It's the whether that target market's gonna like it, if it's gonna move product, if they're gonna make money. Because that's, at the end of the day, that's what we're trying to do.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Alan Peters]

And strategically, you know, does it, does it make sense? Your logo for Nike logo doesn't have to be a shoe. You know, a duck is kind of what are the three things you're looking for? Right. Does it, Is it memorable? No. Is it unique? Is it. Gosh. What's the other one? I don't, I. No, no, no, no. Memorable.

[James Bernard]

Unique and.

[Alan Peters]

No, no, no, no. I have different ones. I have different ones than you. Sorry. Is it memorable? Is it unique? Is it. Stop talking over top. I keep losing. I almost had it.

[James Bernard]

The biggest shot.

[Alan Peters]

Simple, memorable, unique. Did I say that? Okay, Did I not say simple?

[Unknown Host]

I said simple and you said.

[Alan Peters]

No, no, I was talking to him. So he was like, scalable. Does it gradient? Oh, no, there. Well, there's also. Those are the three I always look for. And a duck is memorable.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, I guess you do.

[Alan Peters]

You know, it might over time become associated with it. Is. Is it unique? It's sure is a lot. It's not A circle logo. It's not like. It's not so simple, but maybe you guys illustrate a really simple duck. I don't know.

[Unknown Host]

Well, back then, it wasn't very simple. It looked like a hunting logo and it was for like a tool and die. So it made no sense.

[James Bernard]

You know, everybody does it slightly different. It works for us, it works for you guys.

[Alan Peters]

Right.

[James Bernard]

And there's parts we can all pull from each other's processes.

[Unknown Host]

I think that's the key here.

[Alan Peters]

Right.

[Unknown Host]

You have to find what works for you. Right. In this. In. In this space. Because, again, it's. You got to be comfortable.

[Alan Peters]

Yep.

[Unknown Host]

And you got to be confident in presenting that. Because I think, like, ultimately, you present 15.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

You present one. I guarantee your confidence is going to be the same when you're presenting this concept.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Right. And you guys are still rock stars in this space. To me, it sounds like. Like you love drawing. You're not so much sketching. So your process sounds like this is.

[Alan Peters]

What you really, really like. I went to.

[Unknown Host]

Whereas yours is same, but you don't.

[Alan Peters]

With a major in drawing, that's what I wanted to do for a living.

[James Bernard]

There we go.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah. And then. And I switched design. I kind of was like, whatever, I'll sell out. I want to make money.

[James Bernard]

Sell out.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah. And so now making logos. Yeah. I like. I really like the. I've always liked geometry, math and drawing.

[Unknown Host]

It shows your logos, actually. Yeah.

[Alan Peters]

Right. And it's things that I've excelled at since I was a kid. So.

[James Bernard]

Yeah.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah. So that's. Yeah.

[James Bernard]

I tell you a funny story.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

I was working on a lot of.

[Unknown Host]

More funny than. More than words. Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Cut that bit out of the edit. I was working on a project about a month or two ago, and the brand nouns were. It was a charity. It was like a sort of assistive care program. The nouns were. You're going to find it. The nouns were leaf, hand, and a couple of others. Okay. And I found this great design where I drew the four fingers and within the center of the design, I made a leaf shape. Cutting in, like, very, very simple geometry. Cool. And it was like the leaf was in the palm and the fingers stuck out. And I was like, I've seen this somewhere before. I can't work out. And I Googled it and I was like, it's not coming up. And then I was like, oh, God. And I went to Alan's book and it was almost exactly. I had almost exactly recreated this design. So I think all I did was like, I cut that bit in half, didn't I? And that was round. And I was like, dang it. Right. So I found it in his book. Okay, this is, you know, first round. So this is a concept that's not in. Used in the real world's permission. If I can use this design. And I called him up, I was like, I'm working on a project. Check this out. And I was like, I came up with this organically, I promise. Can I use it? And then I watched his face, this reaction. He went, yeah, yeah, you can use it, man. And I just saw it like, no, no, I can't, I can't use this. I'm going to go back to the drawing board.

[Unknown Host]

I love you. That way.

[Alan Peters]

Right?

[James Bernard]

Yeah. That's so good. It was so good. This is a hard part of our business is trying to be unique in the space and coming up with something simple and creative and not treading on anybody else's toes. And even when you Google something and you do your reverse image checks, just having experience and studying other people's work.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Allows you to protect yourself in that way.

[Unknown Host]

So is it possible, you think it's still possible to be unique or you think it's just.

[James Bernard]

Oh, yeah, of course. This process in Alan's book is a great way to do that. When you take two concepts and merge them together to create something new. That is a great way to kind of anti plagiarism, like check your work.

[Unknown Host]

Yes, yes.

[James Bernard]

It's very difficult to like, unless, you know, the concepts are very simple, like sun and a wave. You know, those things are going to, you know, clash a lot. But if it's something a lot more unique, then this is kind of a great way to protect your, protect your work.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Bernard]

Without adding too much detail.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, right.

[James Bernard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Peters]

For, for the, for the record, I said you could use it.

[James Bernard]

You did.

[Alan Peters]

And, but I saw you face. No, I said, but he wants half the money for the commenters to be like, oh, that looks like Alan Peters.

[James Bernard]

Yeah, right, right. And then every time that was out in the world, I would have to explain.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Why the conversation that we had, I was like, I'm going to go back to the drawing board.

[Unknown Host]

I asked for provision.

[James Bernard]

So that's a great story.

[Unknown Host]

All right, all right, all right. Last, last thing, last thing. One piece of advice you can each give to your fans. Aspiring logo. I know you love that. What's one piece of advice you can give me? But let's, let's couch it in, you know, future of logos.

[Alan Peters]

Bren.

[James Bernard]

Be prepared to Defend your work. So my creative director got us to start rationalizing our designs when we sent it over to even, like, internal teams.

[Unknown Host]

Yes.

[James Bernard]

So every design will go with a paragraph of why you've done it, why you've picked this color choice, why you've chosen this typeface, why you've added a drop shadow. And so while we were designing, we had this paragraph in the back of our head, and it meant that we are preemptively learning to defend our own work.

[Alan Peters]

Yes.

[James Bernard]

But also at the same time, we are thinking about having to do this.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Later on down the line. So then when we start adding things to the design and you can't defend your own decision to do it, don't do it.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Bernard]

And then that ends up leading to less cluttered work, especially with logo designs, when less is more. By adding more, you're creating a more detailed logo, and it's suddenly now not simple and as versatile anymore. So having that in the back of your head.

[Unknown Host]

Yes.

[James Bernard]

While you're working, such a great way to kind of like, preemptively explain away your decisions. And when a client then asks you why you've done something, you'll have a bloody answer.

[Unknown Host]

Yes.

[James Bernard]

And you won't leave yourself open to subjectivity, which leads to doubt and indecision, and then there's more rounds of amends. So.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah.

[James Bernard]

Yeah, that was a good one for my. That's a good one.

[Unknown Host]

That's great.

[James Bernard]

Actually rambled a bit there.

[Unknown Host]

It knows.

[Alan Peters]

Perfect.

[Unknown Host]

Can you beat that?

[Alan Peters]

Yeah, yeah, I'll beat that back to Reddit. No, no. I hate his face that way. He does that cringy piece at the end of his video. My. My little bit of advice. Take a leadership role in your. Sit with your clients as much as possible. Obviously, you don't want to piss them off, but if you can't, your client does not want to lead the project. They don't want to be the creative director. They want to trust you. They came to you, especially if you're independent, like James or I. They came to us because they liked. They're like. Like James work, or they liked my work. You know, it's like they're going shopping at the mall and they're like, hey, you know, I want to go to that Alan Peters logo store because I like the logos they make there. Right. I want one of those type of logos.

[James Bernard]

Yeah.

[Alan Peters]

And make sure that you play the role of the expert because you went to school for it. You are. You are very good at what you do. A lot more a lot more so than. Than the client is going to be good at making a logo.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Alan Peters]

And. And like, when. When they're giving you revisions or creative that are creative direction, find out what's the actual issue. Not like, don't. Instead of doing the creative direction, like, why are you asking me to make that change? You know, like, oh, is it because it's off brand? Is it because, you know it's not working for this reason, then. Well, then let's actually fix the problem in a way that makes the work better instead of making it worse. So. Yeah.

[James Bernard]

What was that?

[Alan Peters]

Yeah, that's great. That's awesome. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Gentlemen, it's been awesome.

[James Bernard]

Thanks very much.

[Unknown Host]

So much. Thank you.

[James Bernard]

Great to see you guys in person.

[Unknown Host]

Great, man. It's been. This has been the highlight. I mean, we were coming in this.

[James Bernard]

My hero. Sorry, dude. I did it.

[Unknown Host]

What a jerk. Can't explain how I feel.

[James Bernard]

Oh.

[Alan Peters]

Oh, he's just. He's already. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

[Unknown Host]

It's a difficult song to play, so I'll give you that.

[James Bernard]

It's really not. Yeah, it's good with the ladies, too. My wife is going to listen to this. Be careful. Okay.

[Alan Peters]

Yeah. Come on.

[Unknown Host]

All right, everybody. My name is Mon. My name is Sean. And you are?

[James Bernard]

James Bonoff.

[Alan Peters]

And you are. My name is Alan Peters.

[Unknown Host]

Stay creative and stay angry.

[Alan Peters]

Jam.