Designers Who Ignore Brand Strategy Are Getting Replaced with Dan Janssen

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Angry Designer – "Designers Who Ignore Brand Strategy Are Getting Replaced with Dan Janssen"

Release Date: July 8, 2025

In this insightful episode of The Angry Designer, host Massimo and guest Dan Janssen delve deep into the evolving landscape of graphic design, emphasizing the critical role of brand strategy and the burgeoning impact of Artificial Intelligence (AI) on the industry. The conversation navigates through AI integration, brand building, merchandising, industry challenges, and strategic hiring practices, offering valuable perspectives for both seasoned and emerging designers.

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1. AI in Graphic Design and Illustration

Massimo and Dan Jansen kick off the discussion by addressing the growing use of AI tools like ChatGPT in design workflows. They explore how AI is both a tool and a potential disruptor in graphic design, particularly in illustration.

• Dan Jansen expresses concern over AI's ability to replicate certain illustration tasks:

  "[Dan Jansen, 00:34] …it's gonna get more and more into, like, who is the person behind the brand? What are you selling, you know, the client or the process… AI can duplicate spot illustrations now. It’s scary."

• The conversation highlights how AI can handle repetitive tasks, enabling designers to focus more on creative and strategic aspects.

• Massimo adds that while AI can assist with copywriting, the creative execution—mockups, layouts, and overall design—remains a domain where human expertise is indispensable:

  "[Massimo, 03:00] …clients are still looking at us to do the mockups, the layouts, the overall big P's, and it makes sense because I can't see AI replacing that part anytime soon."

2. Importance of Brand Strategy Amid AI Evolution

As AI becomes more integrated into design processes, Dan emphasizes the increasing importance of brand strategy and the human touch in design work.

• Dan Jansen states:

  "[Dan Jansen, 03:52] …our human experience we've all had, you know, in different areas and cities and whatever it is… offering the client your opinion and your design sense that can't be replaced."

• The duo discusses the necessity for designers to incorporate strategic thinking and to educate clients about the value beyond mere execution.

• They concur that the strategic component of design is where human creativity and insight provide irreplaceable value, distinguishing professional designers from AI-generated outputs.

3. Lincoln Design Company’s Branding and Merchandising

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to Dan and Massimo sharing their experiences with branding and merchandising, particularly through their book project.

• Dan Jansen recounts the journey of creating a comprehensive book that documents Lincoln Design's evolution, emphasizing the importance of consistent brand documentation:

  "[Dan Jansen, 07:00] We're like, hey, let's make more stuff because the clients are noticing. It gradually evolved…"

• They discuss how sharing their work publicly has influenced client expectations and project briefs, leading to clients requesting similar styles showcased in their merchandising efforts.

  "[Dan Jansen, 10:13] …we kept getting back briefs like 'we want this style'."

• The success of their book serves as both a marketing tool and a means to solidify their brand presence within the design community.

• Massimo highlights the strategic timing and execution that made their merchandising efforts successful:

  "[Massimo, 08:27] …dial it in."

4. Industry Challenges: Tariffs and Economic Uncertainty

Addressing external challenges, Dan brings up the impact of tariffs and economic instability on their business operations.

• Dan Jansen vents frustration over high tariffs affecting the cost of shipping printed materials:

  "[Dan Jansen, 25:04] …2600 bucks for a tariff to get them over here."

• The discussion extends to how global economic shifts and tariffs are causing clients to pause or modify their project budgets, affecting design agencies worldwide.

  "[Dan Jansen, 25:45] …companies are feeling it. Our printer was like, we've paused everything for Amazon…"

• Massimo and Dan agree that these economic factors introduce uncertainty, making strategic planning more challenging for design studios.

5. Hiring and Team Building in a Design Studio

The conversation transitions to the critical aspects of building and maintaining a talented team within a design studio.

• Dan emphasizes the importance of a solid portfolio that extends beyond academic projects:

  "[Dan Jansen, 28:15] …they got to have a solid portfolio. You need freelance projects, not just schoolwork."

• Massimo and Dan discuss the balance between technical skills and cultural fit, highlighting that personal attributes and the ability to collaborate effectively are as crucial as design prowess.

  "[Dan Jansen, 30:56] …the 50% of it. The work has to be good. The other 50% is, who are you? Can you join the team?"

• They advocate for in-house collaboration over remote work to foster a cohesive and dynamic team environment.

6. Future Plans and Event Hosting

Looking ahead, Dan shares Lincoln Design's strategic plans for growth, including the potential for hosting future events and expanding their service offerings.

• Dan Jansen reflects on past events as pivotal for brand growth and networking:

  "[Dan Jansen, 35:00] …That was the springboard, because from that point on, Lincoln has exploded."

• They consider the feasibility and logistics of hosting future events, aiming for quality over quantity to maintain the positive impact experienced previously.

• Dan mentions the importance of strategic product drops and event-centric merchandise to sustain engagement without overextending resources.

  "[Dan Jansen, 35:13] …make sure I did it exactly… they saw us every day, like dinner, lunch…"

7. Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Dan and Massimo reaffirming the necessity of adaptability and strategic thinking in sustaining a successful design career. They stress the importance of balancing creative passion with business acumen to navigate the complexities of the modern design industry.

• Dan remarks on the relentless pace of change and the need for designers to stay informed and proactive:

  "[Dan Jansen, 34:46] …it's so dumb. It's so crazy, crazy times."

• Massimo and Dan conclude by encouraging designers to embrace both the creative and strategic facets of their work, ensuring their relevance and resilience in an ever-evolving market.

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Notable Quotes

• Dan Jansen [00:34]:
  "…it's scary. Fucking scary… more of, it's gonna bring more of the human piece of it into design."

• Dan Jansen [03:52]:
  "…the human experience… offering the client like with your opinion and your design sense, you know, like that can't be replaced."

• Dan Jansen [07:00]:
  "So, like, it's gonna get more and more into, like, who is the person behind the brand?"

• Dan Jansen [25:04]:
  "…2600 bucks for a tariff to get them over here."

• Dan Jansen [28:15]:
  "They got to have a solid portfolio. You know, I want to see stuff outside of like, say you're coming out of school."

• Dan Jansen [30:56]:
  "The work has to be good. The other 50% is, who are you? Can you join the team?"

• Dan Jansen [34:46]:
  "It's so dumb. It's so crazy, crazy times."

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This episode serves as a compelling guide for graphic designers navigating the intersections of AI technology, brand strategy, and the dynamic demands of the creative industry. Massimo and Dan offer candid insights, practical advice, and a forward-thinking approach to building a resilient and impactful design career.

Transcript

[Massimo]

Foreign.

[Sean]

You're listening to the Angry Designer podcast, where we help frustrated graphic designers crush the industry chaos, ditch the social BS and build badass, rewarding careers that actually pay now. Powered by WIX Studio.

[Dan]

Obviously you've had to have used ChatGPT for some parts of your business, Right. Because you have some incredibly talented illustrators on staff.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

How are they feeling about this? And then I get it.

[Dan Jansen]

I mean, it's.

[Massimo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

And honestly, we haven't had a ton of conversations, especially on the illustration side.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

You know about it. I think it's now just gonna be this, you know, it's a weird thing of, like, you know, a lot of them and what they're. You know, if it's a spot illustration, it can be pretty much duplicated by, you know, AI now. You know, Scary. Fucking scary, you know, and it's such a weird situation. I just think now it's gonna get more and more into, like, who is the person behind the brand? What are you selling, you know, the client or the process? And why more so than ever before, you know, it's not just like, what you produce in that final product. Now everybody's gonna have to shift a little bit, and it's just more of, like, it's gonna bring more of the human piece of it into design, more so. And you're gonna need to kind of lean into that more, you know.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

Even more so on a strategy side. Like, if you didn't do strategy before or kind of work that in or, you know, and educate your clients, you're going to have to now.

[Dan]

Absolutely. So are your clients getting any sort.

[Dan Jansen]

Of pushback or not too much?

[Massimo]

No, no.

[Dan Jansen]

Like, I've had some weird things with, like, we've, like, we had. We had one specific project that the client basically brought to us, an AI poster. Like, they had done it in AI. It looked like the content and kind of structure was there, right?

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Dan Jansen]

And so I told him. I'm like, mike, hey. I'm like, this is kind of. It's kind of cool. It's cool to see this. I said, but you. Basically what you did was kind of cut out a sketch phase.

[Massimo]

Yep.

[Dan Jansen]

You know, like, so in my mind, I'm kind of like, is that good? Is it bad? Like, we lost a little bit of revenue that we could have built for that sketch phase, but that would have took us time. Right now we have this AI kind of layout. It was very clear what they want, you know, so we can just kind of jump in now and do a much more refined Sketch, you know, to get approved. So in that sense it kind of worked out well. You know, I was like, that's cool. But at the same time I have a, have a friend who used to be a videographer. He's selling all of his equipment and now he's offering logo design done by AI and it's, it says done by AI and you basically get, and it says you get a flat file, you know, and I'm like, what do you.

[Dan]

Even do with that?

[Dan Jansen]

That's lame.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

So.

[Dan]

Well, and again, that's. How many long term issues are they going to have with this? But this is the worry is that, you know, it's not, it's like, it's like we're cannibalizing ourselves in a situation like this because that's a flat file is not going to work.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Right. And it's just going to be long term issues over and over and over again.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

It's funny because I've had customers already come to us and they said straight out, oh yeah, I'll just get Chat GPT to help me with the copy and I'll give it to you. But they're still looking at us to do the mockups, the layouts, the, the overall big P's you know, and it makes sense because I can't see AI replacing that part anytime soon.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

And anyway, but the strategy part worries me. And so this, like you said, they cut out a lot of the strategy. Do you think we're just going to get to the point where we're just going to be order takers then like if you see something wrong, are you in a place to still speak up?

[Dan Jansen]

Yeah, yeah, I think so.

[Massimo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

And I think, I think this strategy piece is going to be more important. I think like the thinking and like our human experience we've all had, you know, in different areas and cities and whatever it is kind of growing up, you know, that you're offering the client like with your opinion and your design sense, you know, like that can't be replaced, you know, so.

[Dan]

Absolutely.

[Dan Jansen]

I think that's where it's going to be more important, you know, to lean into the strategy side and everything so. Nice.

[Dan]

Well, and it's kind of to, to our point that we were talking about before is just like maybe that they'll, they'll perceive that end result can be done by AI. And yeah, sure, AI can slap together a logo.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

But it, it kind of misses on all the other parts that we're supposed to bring to the table.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

Absolutely.

[Dan]

So then the whole question is, do we elevate ourselves? And, and in the end, will we be using AI to get a lot of that? You know, like, are we going to be more valued for our strategy, for our thinking, not necessarily just the execution?

[Dan Jansen]

Yeah, I think so. I think that's where it's going to go. I think what is shitty is like, and I wouldn't want to be a young designer or even coming out of college. Like, I'm like, ah, this is like, that's a weird spot. It is like, I think the seasoned designers and things, you know, and studios, you know, can adapt and, and will, you know, are going to make it work to their advantage.

[Massimo]

Yes. Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

You know, but I think a young designer coming out or a young illustrator, like, oh, man. Yeah, that's what's kind of shitty.

[Dan]

Okay, now let me ask you though, then, to play devil's advocate, what if one of these young designers comes to your studio.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

And they're like, yeah, I took graphic design, but I, I, I saw AI was coming.

[Dan Jansen]

So now I'm a master of, I'm.

[Dan]

A master of AI. I can put shit together and up. Would that be of value?

[Dan Jansen]

I mean, it probably would, you know, like, maybe, you know, like, I don't know.

[Dan]

I know it's tricky. They don't exist yet.

[Massimo]

Yeah, they don't.

[Dan]

God knows school's not teaching that.

[Dan Jansen]

No, it's not, you know, but, but there, I'm sure there's people out there leaning into it that are, you know, that can do it much better, you know, and I don't know, it, it.

[Dan]

Is making us a hell of a lot more efficient.

[Massimo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan]

And it's happening so fast.

[Dan Jansen]

So fast. That's what, that's what's scary. And just.

[Massimo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

It's like, slow down. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dan]

Well, on a good note, I mean, you are a master brander. You know, your, your, your brand is just killing it on a long term.

[Dan Jansen]

Like, like that's why we're still so AI. AI is not going to make you a book. That's exactly.

[Dan]

And this thing, you sold out on this how fast?

[Dan Jansen]

Very quickly. Yeah, we, we, we put it online in the first two hours, they sold out. And then I had kept 22 books to bring to crop and, and they sold out 10 minutes when I got here. But yeah, exactly. We talked to a bunch of people last night. It's like, I'm going straight for the link.

[Dan]

It was going to be a month and you sold out literally within the first 10 minutes.

[Dan Jansen]

Oh, yeah, there was a line and they were gone. And it was kind of nice because then I'm like, I'm done. I'm going to go watch talks now, so. Because all I brought was books this time. Oh, really?

[Massimo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

I didn't bring anything else, so. Okay.

[Dan]

So you guys. And again, I'm still baffled by this because you're a graphics agency.

[Massimo]

Yeah, right, sorry.

[Dan]

You're much more than that. But, you know, your brain, you're creating sick graphics. You know, it's hard to even pinpoint a single logo. That is the LinkedIn logo.

[Dan Jansen]

Okay.

[Dan]

And now you're constantly churning out these books of your work, like this is unheard of.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

So how the hell does this happen?

[Dan Jansen]

Yeah, because this is.

[Dan]

This is where I want to take this brand. But I see this and then I'm like, hey, no way how that we're.

[Massimo]

Going to be able to do this.

[Dan Jansen]

I mean, this. This, like, is much different than our other books. You know, we have the Mayhem series of logo illustration, skateboard. Right. And at some point, I want to do an apparel mayhem. You know, this is just Lincoln work over the last 10 years. You know, no client work in here at all. Right. And this is something like, probably about, I'd say, two or three years ago. You know, it was kind of apparent to me, like, we document a lot of shit that we do. You know, the retreats. Smart coming to crop, like, all this shit. Right. You know, we do a retreat, we do a whole branding kit for ourselves for the retreat, for no reason. Just post on Instagram or whatever. Never gets used, Right?

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

You know, we go to Designer Con, we take the rv, we set up, and we do all these things to kind of promote the company, sell product and just kind of do marketing. Right?

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

And we've always documented it all. So, like a couple years back, it was kind of like, we have so much of this, so many photos and graphics and things from all the. That we've done that just events over kind of goes on the drive and never see it again, you know?

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

So I knew we had enough content to put together a book that just had our. Our in there. You know, our designs, our story of, like, you know, how I started and. And why we made so many logos and all that. So.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

So it's cool. It was a heavy lift of, like. So I basically, Dustin Dave and then myself kind of dug into this thing and like, dedicated, like, time every week to work on this thing, putting this together.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

And then I took like the last two weeks to get everything into one InDesign file and kind of dial it in.

[Dan]

So see the car, right? It's like a lay flat. I love this idea.

[Dan Jansen]

Right.

[Dan]

Like, look at that. Books just don't open up like this. And it's got like that old school paper. Like you're right. It's got that flat texture analog. You just don't see any.

[Dan Jansen]

Yeah, it's a, it's a different, you know, binding system. We wanted the big fold out cover. I wanted those inside pages. Originally it was going to be a little bit of craft, like paper. Right. Right at the end we changed it to this white kind of matte paper. And a lot of the reason was even the printer was like, you guys have a lot of photos in here. Some of them are dark. Like you have a lot of black ink. He's like, I don't know that this craft paper is gonna be. Yeah, it's gonna be a good choice, you know?

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

So kudos to him. So we switched to the white, which I think was a great idea.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

But it still has that kind of rough texture feel, you know, so.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

And, and like some of these photos, like the whole thing turned out cool. Like. But some of a lot of this is like cell phone photos and shit like that, you know that. Yeah, that I was kind of like, I don't know, some of these are going to hold up, you know, and I think the, the map paper helps that, you know, I mean a lot of them we actually shot as well though with you know, Jake did in the studio and like that. But there's a lot of stuff from the conferences that are like, they're legit iPhone photos and, and everything held up and whatever. So it's.

[Dan]

So you were like an agency for the people. Like, I mean your shows, your design, like all these events. You go, you're. You're appeasing graphic designers.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Not clients.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

So this is having. How is this having a reverse effect on your business then?

[Dan Jansen]

Cause so. Yeah, and so that's something I kind of saw in the beginning, you know, that clients were noticing. They noticed like they noticed all the shit that we're selling online. I would sell, I would send them. Like in the beginning we made a poster that's in here and I'd sell. I sent that out to them.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Dan Jansen]

Just thinking, oh, they're gonna get the poster and be like, oh cool, thanks. Right. But then we kept getting back in briefs, like photos of the poster and like we want this style. Right. So I'm like Wow. This is fucking crazy.

[Massimo]

That.

[Dan Jansen]

Or they had to take a photo of a couple of patches, right?

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

I'm like, they're putting this in a. In a brief with, like, other designs from other studios or whatever, you know, and they're asking for this style. So we got to keep doing this, you know, we got to keep making more because the clients are noticing. And then, like, when we did the chop up.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

I was shocked, like, on, like, client calls that were like, oh, I saw the new chop up. And I'm like, no, right. Sick. I'm like, that's. That's what I want to hear, you know, like, we don't have a shit ton of followers on YouTube, but I always say the ones that are following and watching, like, care.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

You know, some of them are clients. Fucking amazing. You know, like, the book, like, we got. Main top guy at Mattel was like, congrats on the book. Like, he's watching. He wanted one, you know, like, so it's. It's something that the clients, too, are paying attention, you know, so.

[Massimo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dan]

So do you think it's some. I mean, you've done this to a whole other level. Do you think it's important for designers, like, everybody here at the show to do this same stuff for their own selves?

[Dan Jansen]

Yeah, I don't know. Cause I've also talked about, like, it wasn't totally intentional, you know, like, it wasn't like, when we moved the studio up to Portland, you know, I had the agency in San Diego for 10 years, moved it up to Portland, changed the name. Right. So I was in a panic of, like, we had great clients. You know, we had Hasbro, Mattel, all these clients. Wwe. I wanted to keep them. I needed to educate them on, hey, the team is coming with me. It's the same team, just a different name, same, same product. We're gonna, you know, continue to design for you. So it was out of necessity that I was like, okay, we changed the name. I need to send all these clients bunch of swag and shit. So they see the name, they get the new business card, they get the new poster, all this shit, Right?

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

Like I said, then they started using it and posting it and putting it in briefs and shit. And so, like, it gradually kind of evolved, you know, Then we're like, oh, let's make more stuff and more stuff. I don't think it's, like, a great idea for, like, a young designer to be like, hey, I'm going to make a bunch of stickers and shirts, like, it's hard to sell product. You know, we don't sell a ton of stuff on our website. Like, we don't. We have sales every week. And my sons used to come in and ship like once a week. Right, cool. Let them build up on the store, come and ship them all. And there is stuff every week. But it, it is by no means keeping the light on, you know, like, it's a fun thing. It's something that we're going to continue to do. But so I've just seen, like, young designers that kind of jump all in on it, you know, all at once, spend a bunch of money. Like, this product doesn't sell that quickly without having, you know, building the brand, people understanding what it is, you know, so well.

[Dan]

And that's, that's what people don't see. They don't see the years that it took to this. They're just like, oh, he's killing it in merch.

[Dan Jansen]

And this is how he did it. So I'm going to do it that way.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

And it's like, no, this is like 10 years of slowly making merch. And like I've always said, and when we make the merch and we make the product is for a reason.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Dan Jansen]

Like, we won't make shit for months. But hey, if we're going to come to crop and sell shit now, I'm going to make a bunch of new shit because I know it can sell here, you know, but if we don't have any events lined up, we won't make stuff for months, you know, because I'm like, I know if I just make a brand new T shirt, like, new design, make, you know, 150 Ts, like, they're not going to fly off the shelf, right?

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

Just putting up on the website and posting on Instagram, you know, we'll sell whatever, you know, 20 of them. But so we do it strategically. Like we have a reason to make new product because we're doing this event, you know, so that's where if you're going to come to an event and have a table, then cool. You know, because you can sell stuff in person, you know, so when you're.

[Dan]

Creating your own, your own logos, your own brands, your own, your own items, which are all crazy. Is this, Is this like internal inspiration for the team? Is this just for your own kind of creative itch?

[Dan Jansen]

Yeah, a lot of it's from a. For my creative. It's like, I did the workshop. We did the workshop yesterday and yeah, there was a couple of questions about the merch and all this stuff. And I told everybody there, I said, honestly, I said, looking back, I said, I've, you know, owned a studio for 20 years. Right. First five years of my career was at DC Shoes in the action sports industry. Right. Looking back, like, I love T shirts and hats. I love brands like Brixton and Volcom and, like, all these brands, right?

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

Like, looking back, I should have started an apparel company, like, years ago. Fuck the agency, because that's like, I really like. Like that and enjoy. I enjoy that industry. I enjoy the products, you know. So some of it to me is also like, like, if I'm going to wear T shirts, I don't wear stuff that we design.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

So to me, it's just like a guilty pleasure too. Of like, I love hats. So we make fucking hats, you know?

[Dan]

Yeah, they're awesome.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

And sometimes, you know, like, the guys in the studio will be like, we need to make this style hat. I'm kind of like, but I wouldn't wear that hat. So I don't want to make it, you know, but we do. Like, we got a dad hat now and stuff. They wanted. Because they wanted that, you know, And I'm like, we'll make it whatever, like, 24 of those. But. So, yeah, it's. So I do think it's, you know, I. I would hate for, like, you know, young designers just to think, like, if I make a bunch of product, I'm going to sell it. Like, yeah, it's tough, you know, but.

[Dan]

Okay, so maybe not about products, but the. What about the importance of.

[Massimo]

Of.

[Dan]

I mean, again, it seems like you're working on.

[Massimo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan]

Your brand, your own stuff.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Like, it's almost like a. Do you feel that that's important, that they should dedicate time to just do their own shit?

[Massimo]

I do, yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

Because I think the time you do spend on your own shit, you're going to learn a lot. And some of that, that inspiration and the stuff you're doing will end up in client projects, you know, and you'll be like, oh, I did that for myself and it worked out well or is super well received by everybody. So let me try it now for this new client project, you know? Um, so, yeah, I think it's. And I think nowadays more than anything, like, everybody wants to know you, who's behind the studio, who's behind Lincoln? You know, like, it's so. It's crazy that, like, I did a talk at abc, the studio in Texas, did a panel, like, a couple of weeks ago. And, and then we were talking about, like, social media and, like, do you have to, like, be the face of the brand or the face of a studio? Like, can there be a studio with no face? You know, like, nobody knows. And I think there can. But I think nowadays, like, everybody feels like they need to understand, you know, what the brand represents, what the company represents, who's running it, what they represent, you know, like, I mean, years ago, nobody gave a shit about, you know, who's running Tesla or. Or whatever, you know, like, who's behind the company and what they're doing now. It's like, shit. The people behind the company are bigger than some of the actual. Yeah, Elon. And, you know, you had jobs and stuff like that, you know, so I think nowadays they expect the access to find out, like, who is. Who is Dan and what does Dan represent? And does that line up with the Lincoln? Okay, it does. So cool. Now I feel like I'm part of it and I can. And I understand this.

[Dan]

So that's actually a really interesting angle.

[Dan Jansen]

Yeah, yeah. So I think if you brand yourself and you do your own kind of internal, you know, work and branding and you can present that to the client, you know, they're going to get a good idea right away of, like, if this is what he's doing for himself, I can kind of see what I'm going to get as an end product, you know, so.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Interesting.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

That's really cool.

[Dan Jansen]

That's awesome.

[Dan]

Did you touch on that on your branding exercise yesterday in your workshop?

[Dan Jansen]

A little bit, yeah.

[Massimo]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

A lot of it. James put together pretty much the whole workshop, you know, and I was kind of there to support him and kind of give Lincoln's take on everything he was talking about, you know, and we got pretty deep into, you know, who you are and. And not like in a graphic like sense, but more. Just a little more internal and deep and like what you represent to yourself, you know?

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

So it was cool. Yeah, it was cool.

[Dan]

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[Sean]

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[Dan]

So you have an incredibly talented team, you know, and you've got all these crazy horses that are just so talented. And even James, like, oh, you're pulling reins on everybody. What does that do for you in that sense? Like, are you. Because you're not, you're not a leader by any means, but you are, you know, kind of like the figurehead you are, you know, are you still acting as creative director? Like, how does this work?

[Dan Jansen]

Yeah, yeah. So I kind of, I promoted Dustin to creative director. Right.

[Dan]

Okay, cool, nice.

[Dan Jansen]

And yeah, and kind of him and I basically. So honestly, the way it works is like nothing leaves the studio without myself or Dustin. Seen it, right? Like nothing. Like we've had projects in the past where we had an old project manager, like sent out a couple projects and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Massimo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

How I would have took that page out of the deck or like I didn't see that. Like, no way. So like Dustin or myself have eyes on everything, right? Dustin works. Dustin works with a lot of our bigger clients. He manages those projects kind of start to finish. I mean, my job nowadays, like what I should be focusing on is bringing in new clients, keeping the clients we have happy, you know, and keeping the work flowing, you know, and it's gotten to a point where I enjoy that now, you know, like, nice. And that's, and that's where like coming to things like this, like this shit benefits the company big time, right? I mean, you got Tyler here from Nickelodeon. We've done a ton of projects with him, right? So just hanging out with him, have a couple beers with him, like fricking amazing, you know, so it's almost like.

[Dan]

An excuse like to play kind of Job.

[Dan Jansen]

I really thought of it. Like.

[Dan]

Is it up to you then to keep thinking what's next for the company?

[Dan Jansen]

Absolutely.

[Dan]

What kind of pressure does that do? It's a lot when you get all these crazy. You have to keep entertained.

[Dan Jansen]

No, it's definitely, you know, up to me to, to kind of, you know, decide what does this year look like next year, you know, kind of pivot if we need to.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

And that's, that's where that can be a full time job.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

So, yeah, it's definitely, it's cool though. I, I love it. And you know.

[Dan]

Well, I mean, it was like last year you really made a push to bring motion into your company.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

And I just, so far what I'm seeing is just incredible. I know I had to reach out and I was like, what am I looking at?

[Dan Jansen]

I know.

[Massimo]

Yeah, I know.

[Dan Jansen]

So Frankie's been killing it and.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

Yeah, it's fun.

[Dan]

So now what kind of. So motion is very different than design, than graphics, but you can see the influence. How is that playing internally?

[Dan Jansen]

Yeah, it's great. I mean, we had, we were getting asked by clients like, to do it, you know, so it's a bit of a. Like, we're like, okay, we've been asked enough times. Yeah. Hired some freelancers to do it, you know, like, well, we, we need to bring this thing in house and.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

And really try to push it, you know, so. And it's been great. And honestly. So Frankie went to school for design and then graphic design. Like, and then right at the end he switched the motion graphics. Right.

[Massimo]

Oh, cool.

[Dan Jansen]

Which is a big difference. Like, he can design a logo as well.

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Dan Jansen]

And so he understands that whole process. So then when I like moving into motion, like.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

He has a big perspective on like what it should look like for like a logo to, to animate and things like that. Like. And so we, we were in the process of hiring like a junior animator. Right. And Frank and I were looking at resumes and things like that. And I think there's a huge benefit to having that background in design and then moving into motion as opposed to like just going straight into college. I'm going to be a motion graphics. Motion designer.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

Have no sense. No. No sense of design. Yeah. Screen layout, page layout, like any of that shit, like building the logo, like, you're just like, I'm just going to make shit move. Yeah, well, the shit you make a move, like probably some designer design that. Right. And if you, if you don't understand how that was done, like the Movements and the shit that you're going to do probably isn't going to be. I mean it might be good, but. Yeah, I think you can do that. But I think for what I've seen with Frankie and some of the people we've interviewed and we have another guy who's freelance that helps us out a lot. Like they have backgrounds in design and it translates very well.

[Dan]

Yeah, it translates well. Do you think that designers, upcoming designers, as we're talking about, they're trying to grasp for everything there's benefit to them having a basic understanding of, of, you know, motion, motion graphics, whether it's for logo reveals, whether it's for presentations, PowerPoint. Basic stuff.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Not full motion stuff like you guys.

[Dan Jansen]

Yeah, I think basic. Yeah, for sure. You know, if you can do some stuff to elevate yourself and your brand or your post, like, great, you know.

[Dan]

Was it easy to sell that up to customers?

[Massimo]

Yeah, it was, yeah.

[Dan]

It's kind of a no brainer.

[Dan Jansen]

And we have a couple clients that are just motion now, you know that every. Most of what we do for them is just motion work. So.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

Which is cool.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

And I see the most growth for us in that industry, you know, in a way. Yeah. Motion and videography as well, like we've been doing. Last year we spent a shit ton of time traveling around shooting like different commercials for Kubota and then doing a lot of editing and then working in the motion graphics on top of that. Right, yeah, yeah. So I see a lot of just growth in both those areas.

[Massimo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan]

Is there anything that's making you angry right now about our industry?

[Dan Jansen]

Angry about the industry?

[Dan]

Something you.

[Dan Jansen]

Yeah, yeah, the fucking tariffs. But that's not our industry.

[Dan]

But it turned.

[Dan Jansen]

It's not our industry. But it turned into my industry. Like.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

When I had to ship these fucking books.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

2600 bucks for a tariff to get them over here.

[Massimo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

So that, I mean that whole thing and like just where the economy's at and like the uncertainty, just a weird uncertain uncertainty of AI, the economy, the tariffs, shipping. Like I think there's so many. We have a lot of clients that I can, you know, when I sit down and think about it, I'm like, it's going to affect this client and this client and this client. I mean I had a call on Monday with Kubota Tractors and like there's a bit of a pause on a lot of stuff because they don't know exactly how big and how heavy the tariff fees are going to be.

[Dan]

That's funny.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

And like you start looking at like the movie industry and then like we do a lot of stuff with consumer products and stuff. Dude, 99 of that is made overseas.

[Massimo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

So they're either going to pause projects with us or they're going to, you know, rack up their prices or whatever it is. You know, there's going to be a trickle down effect, I think. Even if it got solved tomorrow. Yeah, like it's already, it's already paused, you know, the shipping is paused. Like companies are feeling it. Yeah, companies are, they're already paying it. You know, our printer was basically like, we have like, we, they do a ton of work for like Amazon and shit and they're like, we basically have paused everything for Amazon. It's all sitting over in China. The factory shut down, you know, so for all that shit to start up again, like it's going to take months to get back to normal.

[Massimo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

But we haven't even solved the problem yet, you know, so nobody even knows.

[Dan]

It's interesting that you're feeling it. I mean, we've talked to a few people and we know a lot of the smaller independents are feeling it.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

It's interesting to hear that an agency is feeling especially, you know, like what some of your caliber like this probably will make some people kind of be like, well, thank God it's not just me.

[Massimo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dan]

To your detriment, unfortunately, or to, you.

[Massimo]

Know, fault right now.

[Dan Jansen]

Yeah, no, totally. I think it's going to affect a lot more people than they think, you know. Yeah, absolutely. So much that, you know.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

Comes from overseas and you know that.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

That we take for granted, honestly, you know, it's so sad.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

It's so dumb.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

No, like it's crazy, crazy times.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

And I didn't think like I, I was pushing to get the book done to have some at crop. Right. Yeah, wasn't even thinking because when we sent the book to print, you know, it was months ago. Like, wasn't even thinking, like, oh, shit, this is, you know, I'm going to hit an issue with tariffs and things like that. Because the other the Mayhem books were all printed here in the us this one is a little thicker because of the binding and stuff. Like the price was going to be super. A bit outrageous here in the US you know. Yeah, I get it. All right. I got to go overseas with this thing. Right. You know, so I did for the first time and then I'm like burned.

[Dan]

Yeah, you go, your place is back.

[Dan Jansen]

And I was Going to have it printed in Germany. And then I didn't do it in Germany, we did it in China. And I was like, at least if it would have been in Germany, like, the tariffs are much lower. Yeah.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

So whatever.

[Dan]

What is something that you look for in the. The young designers that are applying to Lincoln or even any of your prospect, like the prospective designers, motion designers, graphic designers.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

So I would say, you know, they got to have a solid portfolio. You know, I want to see stuff outside of like, say you're coming out of school.

[Massimo]

Yep.

[Dan Jansen]

Like the, what I, I, what I don't want to see is like a portfolio full of schoolwork and you don't have, you don't have any freelance projects, right?

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

Everybody can do a freelance project, even if it's bullshit. Like make up a. Make something up. Right. There should be something in your portfolio that's outside of school. If there isn't, what that tells me is you went to school, you did the bare minimum, you did what you were asked and that was it.

[Massimo]

Right.

[Dan Jansen]

If you were in school for three or four years and you didn't do a single project outside of like what you did in school, like, to me, you're, you don't have a love for this. You're not like, you're just there to get an art degree and hopefully a job doing design, you know, like, you really don't. I feel like our industry, like, you have to kind of live it and love it, you know? And like, you got to be, you know, your head's got to be turned on full time when you walk around the street, like. Oh, yeah. You know, like in somebody like that that just did the bare minimum, like, you know, obviously isn't doing that, you know.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

So it's a little bit of that. And they had portfolio reviews, I guess yesterday here with.

[Massimo]

Yep.

[Dan Jansen]

We did students from. Yeah. And I heard nothing but good things. It was amazing.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

I heard like those students work, like, looked like professionals and it didn't look like student work, you know, which is great.

[Dan]

You know, you know what's funny? And. And it wasn't just us. So it seems like there was a common issue across the board. And I don't want to say huge issue, but like, I mean. Okay. When it came to the quality of, of talents.

[Dan Jansen]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Everybody was bang on. Everything was great. That we saw.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Where it almost felt like everybody on the same level. And again, not just us, but other people were like. Because we had a panel afterwards to just talk about this, they fell short on the journey. They didn't know how to present the. The case study. They would sometimes, you know, they. They didn't know how to tell the story about the job, even the story in their portfolio. At what point do they talk about themselves versus the client versus the problem? And that was. I mean, we gave that to three of the four people that we. That we did reviews or was, you know, let's. Let's tighten up that story and get it in a good order. And then other people as well. So it's. They don't teach that in school.

[Massimo]

No.

[Dan]

They're teaching you how to present stuff. And it all looks slick.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

But it was so hard to remember. And by the time, you know, okay, we had four very different people and they were amazing. But as an agency owner.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

If I had 24 of those, I wouldn't be able to tell who the hell from anybody afterwards.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

And so when I'm going to hire, that's. I mean, I've always told people, like, it's almost 50. 50.

[Massimo]

Yep.

[Dan Jansen]

The 50% of it. The work has to be good. The other 50 cent is. Who are you?

[Massimo]

Yes.

[Dan Jansen]

Can you join the team? Can I have a beer with you? Yeah, exactly. Come into this family, you know, because it is a small family. You know, we're not a huge studio.

[Massimo]

So.

[Dan Jansen]

Yeah, you're going to be in the office with us. You're not remote. The post. The post says not remote. Do not. Do not. Do not apply. Like, and then ask, like, you know, but yeah, can I, Can I? You know, aren't you. Are you okay with, like, me working? No. It's sad in house, you know, like, what kind of crazy person wouldn't want to work in your environment? Yeah, I get a lot of that. So. That's funny.

[Dan]

I didn't know that you guys. I mean, we're the same way.

[Massimo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dan]

Our creative will have remote programmers.

[Dan Jansen]

That's fine.

[Dan]

Mindset. Creative has to be like. It hurts us in one way. Our pool is smaller.

[Dan Jansen]

Totally.

[Dan]

But if they really want to work, you're getting people who really want to work with us.

[Dan Jansen]

Yeah. It cuts out a lot of people for sure. You know, like, there's a lot of talent out there that wants to be remote and they will get a job remote and they have them, you know, but yeah, I'm like, you know, you need to be able to be in house and you're, you know, who you are as a person and, you know, needs to vibe with everybody else. And that's the other half. Yeah, so exactly. So like they need to be able to tell the story, you know, of the work in the portfolio as well as like who, who they are.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

You know, why'd you get into this? Like, what do you do outside of work? You know, like, never thought of.

[Massimo]

True.

[Dan Jansen]

Yeah, exactly. Why are you doing this? What's the reason behind. Yeah. You know, so. Yeah.

[Dan]

So I asked you this last time.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

And then you teased motion and now you got motion.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

So what's next?

[Dan]

What's next?

[Dan Jansen]

What is, what is next? I don't know because we got the book. So like next. Like the last year, you know, it was like kind of getting everything ready and together for the book, you know. So now that we have that and it's done, like we have a really solid team now, you know, there's 17 of us. Like, it feels like a good number, kind of core group, you know.

[Massimo]

It is.

[Dan Jansen]

So I don't have plans, eventually we'll hire a junior motion person, you know, but right now I don't have plans of hiring anybody else in the next year. Like, I think we have what we need to really do some good projects, service the clients we have, you know.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

As well as bring in some new ones. But yeah, we spent a lot of last year, basically went into last year in 2024. I told the team, like, we have amazing. Like I printed out like the list of our like current clients and who we're working with. Right. And it was a great looking list. Right. Of, of really cool clients and projects. And I'm like, all we need to do is take these right here. And it was about 20, 20 different companies and like get them to do a little bit more work. If we can get a couple to double, triple like what we're doing with them, amazing. Like we don't need to go out and get a bunch of new clients, you know, because in the past I've been like, oh, we need to get new clients and this and that. And of course, like we still want to bring in some new clients and there's exciting companies we definitely want to work with, you know. But last year we spent the year going, okay, let's just over service and take care of the clients we have because they're great, you know.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

And it worked out really well. Like we, we had our biggest year ever and, and everything. So I was going to continue that this year and I am but with some ideas of like reaching out to other clients and things. But this year has been weird. Like this first quarter has been funky. Like we haven't been super slow. But like I said, I've had clients just talk about, like, we don't know. Yeah, we don't know yet. Like, we're pausing a budget or this and that. Like, they just seem very uncertain, you know, so it's been weird.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

And I don't see it, like, freeing up or getting any better. Anybody anytime soon, feeling like, oh, no, let's just go for it, you know, Right now.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

People are like, it's not the time to go for it, you know? So. Yeah, fair enough.

[Dan]

Everybody's treading lightly.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

So it's interesting.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Well, I know that there's a ton of designers out there that are just holding their breath for anything else you got, whether it's books, workshops, I don't know, maybe another into the woods.

[Dan Jansen]

How many times has that come up here? Oh, man. Dude.

[Dan]

I know. And you probably get asked.

[Dan Jansen]

You started this.

[Dan]

You invited all these graphic designers.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

So, yeah. Not saying. Not expecting anything.

[Dan Jansen]

But, you know. You know, it's not like I told everybody here in our workshop yesterday, it's not a no. It's not off the table. Okay. It has to be. It. I need to think about it. It has to be done right, you know, like, it has to be done different. It can't be what we did last time. Like, what we did last time was. It was great, you know, like, everybody had a great time. I enjoyed it. The team enjoyed it. You know, we. We didn't have, like. We didn't have any big hiccups or anything. Like, it went off pretty flawless, right?

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

It's just the venue we were at was fucking amazing, but we couldn't do it there again. They. They were hard to deal with. It cost too much, and so we'd have to go somewhere else, you know, I think I would do it a little bit smaller, maybe. Like, we had about 225 people. I would never do anything bigger than that. I thought that was a good size.

[Dan]

You know, great size.

[Dan Jansen]

Or I'd go a little smaller. I mean, it was cool. That. And I'd do it again where definitely make sure I did it exactly. Like, we did it there. Where it was like the venue, stayed at the venue. It was all one area, you know? Like, I think that forced everybody to get to know the speakers, get to know everybody, you know, you saw them all every day, you know, like dinner, lunch.

[Dan]

We're still talking to people. That from there, good relations, a lot.

[Dan Jansen]

Of relationships, you know, like business. Business and just friends from that whole event, you know? So, yeah, I want to do it again, and I think it'll be. You know, it'll be a year or two from now, but I think.

[Dan]

Yeah, well, definitely felt like that was the springboard, because from that point on, it's like Lincoln has exploded. The brand is. Is.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Totally the envy of all designers that I know.

[Dan Jansen]

Anyway.

[Dan]

Right Again, we're always waiting.

[Dan Jansen]

It was a great marketing tool, you know, and that's all we wanted it to be. You know, we're like, hey, if we can break even on this thing, that's a win. You know, we didn't break even, but it was still a great marketing tool.

[Massimo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

Rock on. Yeah, I know. It's cool. Awesome.

[Dan]

Dude, it is always a pleasure to sit down and get updated.

[Dan Jansen]

Thank you, guys.

[Dan]

Yeah, before you came, we touched on some AI.

[Dan Jansen]

Of course. I'll have to. I'll have to listen to it, I guess. You and everybody else.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

Stupid.

[Dan]

Thank you, brother.

[Dan Jansen]

Hey, you know what we're missing in these things, though? I did the one at Creative south, right.

[Dan]

Without alcohol.

[Massimo]

Yeah, yeah. The whiskey.

[Dan Jansen]

That's right. Every time I listen to you guys is. You guys got a bottle of whiskey.

[Dan]

Yeah, I know.

[Dan Jansen]

And I've done the one at South. We didn't have any whiskey. This one.

[Dan]

We did have beer.

[Dan Jansen]

Yeah, yeah. I always have a bottle with you. Yeah, you're right. You're right. This is true.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

Why aren't we. It's part of our brand. Absolutely.

[Dan]

Well, wait. Last time I remember, you were working with some whiskey companies, so you.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Bourbon company.

[Dan Jansen]

Yes. I could. I could bring the bourbon.

[Massimo]

Yeah. Just saying.

[Dan Jansen]

Yeah.

[Dan]

We bring the looks. You bring the.

[Dan Jansen]

There you go.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

Perfect.

[Dan]

All right, everybody, our hero, Dan from Lincoln Design Company.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan Jansen]

All right.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Dan]

That being said, I'm Massimo.

[Dan Jansen]

My name is Sean.

[Massimo]

You are?

[Dan Jansen]

I am Dan Jansen, Lincoln Design.

[Dan]

Stay creative and stay angry.