From Craigslist to $35K Projects - Why Freelancers Struggle and How YOU Can Scale for Success with Kady Sandel

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Angry Designer - Episode "From Craigslist to $35K Projects" with Kady Sandel

Release Date: January 28, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Angry Designer, host Massimo Santilli delves deep into the entrepreneurial journey of Kady Sandel, a renowned figure in the graphic design industry. Kady, the mastermind behind Avantiv Studio and Avantiv Academy, shares her transformative path from hustling on Craigslist to securing high-value projects worth up to $35K. This episode is a treasure trove of insights for graphic designers aspiring to scale their freelance businesses into profitable agencies.

Early Freelancing Challenges

Kady begins by recounting her early days as a freelancer in Serbia, where she navigated the uncharted waters of client acquisition without the aid of modern social media platforms.

• Craigslist Hustle:
  [09:03]
  Kady explains, "I was posting on Craigslist like crazy. Like 21 posts a day."

  Her initial approach involved multiple postings and managing several fake email addresses to maximize her reach, a testament to her relentless drive to secure clients despite limited resources.

• Pricing Struggles:
  [09:35]
  "I was charging $65 for a logo design and had to get a ton of work to cover my expenses," Kady reflects.

  This low pricing model was unsustainable, pushing her to seek more efficient ways to generate income without compromising her well-being.

Networking and Building a Client Base

Recognizing the limitations of online platforms, Kady shifted her focus to networking events to build a robust client base.

• Transition to Networking:
  [09:58]
  "I discovered meetup.com and started attending networking events. I was going to three to five different networking events per week."

  Her active participation in these events, despite some early setbacks with irrelevant connections, eventually led to meaningful referrals and a steady influx of clients.

Shifting Strategies to Increase Leads and Revenue

Realizing that relying solely on networking was neither scalable nor sustainable, Kady diversified her lead generation strategies by embracing SEO and blogging.

• SEO and Blogging Success:
  [03:37]
  "Leads are coming from Avantiv Studio, and that's all through Google, through SEO and blogging."

  By consistently producing high-quality blog content, Kady leveraged search engine optimization to attract more targeted leads, significantly increasing her studio's visibility and client inquiries.

• Automated Contact Processes:
  [05:29]
  Kady discusses refining her contact forms to streamline client filtration:
  "I made my contact form super short, but it still has that minimum. From there, we don't even send them directly to a call because I just don't have time to do all the calls anymore."

  This automation reduced time spent on initial client interactions, allowing her to focus on high-value engagements.

Specializing and Niching Down

A pivotal moment in Kady's journey was her decision to specialize within the health and wellness sector, which transformed her business model and profitability.

• The Niching Decision:
  [20:28]
  "They suggested health and wellness, and I liked that. I started going health and wellness, and eventually, it got to wellness product-based businesses."

  Specializing allowed Kady to tailor her services more effectively, create a more compelling value proposition, and attract a higher-paying clientele.

• Overcoming Initial Resistance:
  [20:50]
  "I initially resisted niching down because I didn't want to be limited, but it turned out to be one of the best decisions for my business."

  This strategic focus not only differentiated her studio from competitors but also enabled her to command premium pricing for her specialized services.

Building an Agency

Transitioning from a solo freelancer to an agency owner required Kady to hire and delegate, ensuring that her business could handle larger projects without compromising quality.

• Hiring the Right Talent:
  [61:31]
  Kady shares her experience, "All my employees are like better designers than I am. They see things differently and are so focused."

  By hiring top-tier designers, Kady enhanced her agency's creative output and allowed herself to transition into a visionary role rather than getting bogged down in day-to-day design tasks.

• Maintaining Quality:
  [62:38]
  "We can all look into one project together, ensuring that quality is consistently high."

  Collaborative workflows and rigorous quality checks ensured that each project met Avantiv Studio's high standards, fostering client trust and satisfaction.

Scaling the Business

As Avantiv Studio grew, Kady focused on streamlining operations and increasing pricing tiers to sustain growth while maintaining personal creative involvement.

• Increasing Pricing:
  [35:09]
  "I went from charging $3k to $12k because I was providing much more value with full brand strategy."

  Higher pricing reflected the comprehensive services offered, including brand strategy, visuals, packaging, and website design, allowing Kady to maximize revenue from each client.

• Balanced Growth:
  [47:02]
  "I don't want to grow anymore. I want to keep the team small and maintain my connection with creativity."

  Kady opts for a lean team to preserve the creative integrity of her work and avoid the pitfalls of rapid, unsustainable expansion.

Starting the Academy and Teaching Others

With successful scaling, Kady founded Avantiv Academy, an educational platform aimed at empowering other graphic designers to achieve similar success.

• Genesis of Avantiv Academy:
  [48:43]
  "I met freelancers who were just starting and started answering their questions on the spot. That's how Aventive Academy was born."

  The academy offers courses like the Profitable Designer Program, which provides actionable strategies for designers to enhance their business operations and profitability.

• Content Strategy:
  [53:11]
  Kady emphasizes the importance of a support system:
  "My manager and virtual assistant handle captions and posts, allowing me to focus on creating content."

  By delegating administrative tasks, Kady ensures consistent and high-quality educational content without overextending herself.

Balancing Business Operations

Managing multiple ventures—Avantiv Studio, Avantiv Academy, and a podcast—required Kady to master time management and delegation.

• Efficient Content Creation:
  [53:44]
  "When I'm designing or recording a podcast, I have a phone recording me. My virtual assistant handles the rest."

  This streamlined process allowed Kady to maintain an active online presence without sacrificing her time or creative energy.

• Leveraging Technology:
  [54:55]
  Kady utilizes AI tools and other technologies to enhance productivity, ensuring she remains at the forefront of design trends and operational efficiency.

Advice for Freelancers

Throughout the episode, Kady offers invaluable advice for freelancers aiming to scale their businesses:

1. Embrace Specialization:
   "Every designer needs to specialize in order to grow."

2. Invest in Support Systems:
   "Hire a virtual assistant or another freelancer to handle non-creative tasks."

3. Automate Where Possible:
   Streamlining client interactions and automating processes can free up significant time.

4. Believe in Yourself:
   "You cannot be an expert before you start. Position yourself as an expert and convince yourself you are."

5. Maintain Quality:
   "Consistently delivering high-quality work builds trust and attracts high-paying clients."

Conclusion

Kady Sandel's journey from struggling freelancer to successful agency owner and educator embodies the essence of resilience, strategic thinking, and unwavering commitment to quality. Her insights provide a roadmap for graphic designers seeking to elevate their careers, charge what they're worth, and build sustainable, fulfilling businesses.

Notable Quotes:

• "You cannot be an expert before you start. Position yourself as an expert and convince yourself you are." — Kady Sandel [00:00]

• "I went from charging $3k to $12k because I was providing much more value with full brand strategy." — Kady Sandel [35:09]

• "Every designer needs to specialize in order to grow." — Kady Sandel [37:16]

• "Hire a virtual assistant or another freelancer to handle non-creative tasks." — Kady Sandel [56:10]

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Key Takeaways:

• Specialization is Crucial: Focusing on a niche market can significantly enhance your value proposition and allow for higher pricing.

• Networking and SEO are Complementary: Combining personal networking with strategic online marketing ensures a steady flow of quality leads.

• Build a Supportive Team: Delegating tasks to skilled professionals can free up your time to focus on creative and strategic endeavors.

• Continuous Learning and Adaptation: Embracing new technologies and staying updated with industry trends are essential for sustained success.

• Believe in Your Expertise: Confidence and self-belief are foundational to attracting and securing high-value clients.

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For more insights and strategies on building a profitable graphic design business, visit Avantiv Academy and listen to Katie Sandel's own podcast, Profitable Graphic Designer available on all major platforms.

Transcript

[A]

You cannot be an expert before you start. And in order to start and to start getting those clients, you have to position yourself as an expert and to really almost even, like, convince yourself, I am the expert. I'm there. Like, talk to yourself, I am the expert. I know what I'm doing. Even when you don't. You will figure it out. Ask Chad GPT. You will figure it out.

[B]

Yeah. You're listening to the Angry Designer podcast, where we help frustrated graphic designers crush the industry bull. And share what it takes to charge what you're worth and build badass, rewarding careers. What's up, Angry Designers? Let me ask you a question. Do you ever feel like you are stuck on, like, a hamster wheel and you're constantly working and trying to grow your business and trying to get more money for your jobs, but you're always hitting the same stumbling blocks over and over and over? I mean, I know that was a huge part of when I started, and I know it's a huge, you know, thing that. That all freelancers and small agencies go through. So today we brought somebody on who not only has another podcast, which is weird, but cool, and, And. And we'll battle that out after, I'm sure. But, you know, and then, you know, her whole mission is literally to help designers charge more, turn themselves, level up their game, grow into. Go into a business. Right? And she's got an academy where she trains. She also has an agency, and again, the podcast, so she's got lots of free time. I would like to introduce the one and only Katie Sandow.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me here. I love that intro. I'm like, I don't even have anything to add to that.

[B]

That was the point. I wanted to cover it up. So I was like, okay, mic drop.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

[B]

This is so fun. So what's going on? How are you doing?

[A]

Hey. I'm doing really well. I am kind of in this stage where I'm just getting too many leads. No, it's like, the problem that everybody wants to have, but it can be very stressful. And so even, like, last night at 7pm I'm, you know, having dinner with my family, and I'm like, oh, my God, I forgot about this email. I opened it five days ago on my phone and completely forgot to respond. And it was a new inquiry, whereas in the past, I would probably leave the dinner to respond.

[B]

It's funny. Do you find you're getting. I mean. Cause you're. You're all over the place. We'll get into early, early starting, of course, but you're all over the place because you've got the podcast, you've got the Academy, and then you've got your business. What. What is drawing in the most amount of leads? Or do they all work as one?

[A]

No. So I kind of separated the two. So one business is called Avantiv Studio, and that is my branding and design agency. And then the other one is Avantiv Academy, which is where I help designers grow their business. And I really wanted to separate it too. I didn't want to be one of those brands like, oh, Katie Sandel Designs or something, you know, and so I really wanted to have, like two separated businesses. And so the leads are coming from Avantiv Studio, and that's all through Google, through SEO and blogging. Because that is basically how, you know, I started, like, in 20. Now I'm like, what year was that? Like 15 or 17 when I started blogging, Actively blogging. And so in the past few months, what happened is, you know, when you type into Google something like, let's say you ask it something and then you get that AI response and then you get a couple of articles. Read more.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So I think I don't have a proof of this, but I think that Google spots some of those articles from my website. And so now it's like AI, quick response. Plus, if you want to learn more, here's an article. And then people are coming to my blog because all of a sudden we have a huge traffic and then leads are coming in.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So it's kind of like AI, like.

[B]

Is helping out in this situation.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

So how are you, how are you grading which customers are the right fit or which was. Or are you at the stage where I'm assuming you're not accepting at all?

[A]

Yeah. So the way we are now kind of weeding out, like bad fit clients is that they have like a minimum. So it says like, minimum $8,000 to work with us. That's like the main, like the key point. I know it's like, oh, money, money, but. Exactly. And most of our projects are like between like 15 and 25k. So I have to have that minimum, otherwise I'm getting inquiries. How much much for a logo?

[B]

Yeah, no, no, absolutely. I think it's actually smart to do this because then, then people oftentimes a lot of my initial conversations with customers are just to make sure they understand where that range is to work with us, you know, and exactly, you know, I'll give them, you know, 15, 20 minutes. And then I will, I will shoot out a very loose ballpark. Right. And you know, logo design. Okay. High level questions. I'm like, okay, well, just so you know, you know, for us, we're starting at, you know, this, we're starting at 2025 and it goes up from there. And, and then if they were only coming in with a $1,500 budget, we can't, we can't make that work. But if they were coming in with an $18,000, $20,000, maybe we can make that work. But it's like, it's, it's smart to actually put out a minimum level of engagement. Absolutely. I'm a big fan for that. So good on you.

[A]

Yeah. And the other thing that I think helped with getting like more leads is that I used to have a very long form, like very long contact form. And I thought that's helping, like in terms of what your goals are, your budget, your timeline, like all the things. And then sometimes people would land on that contact form and be like, oh yeah, it's like a 20 minute form. Do I really want to do that? Well, let me look into other browsers and other designers and other branding agencies. And now my contact form is super short, but it still has that minimum. And then from there we don't even send them directly to a call because I just don't have time to do all the calls anymore. And sometimes they're just like waste of time. So from there then we send them to a longer contact form, which seems like extra step, but it's all automated and it all works. At least they get this confirmation and then they get personalized email. Thank you so much for reaching out. In order for us to provide a quote, we would need a little bit more information from you. If you can quickly fill out this. And then I have the extra questions that used to be in my contact form. So they're engaged. There's like the next step.

[B]

That's so smart.

[A]

And then I get that. And then I can even create a proposal without even talking to them because. And it's not just like a questionnaire.

[B]

Yes, of course.

[A]

You know, it's still like. And I still like to talk to them. I still want to see if we are the right fit. Yeah, of course, of course it's not.

[B]

You know, but at least now you know that you've, you've already weeded out all the low hanging. And then not only that, that meant that then the next level, it's the ones who really want to work with you. Right. And so that's a great pool of people. Because I do find, you know, the challenge, of course, is people. They're all fighting for a giant pool of work, but they don't even know if that pool of work is good for them or not. Where you've taken yourself, your brand, and your agency to a point where you are able to hand pick who you want that best suits you, and you're. What you're able to deliver. So that's brilliant. And I think there's a great story here. So let's. Let's start right from the beginning. Okay, Where. Where did you start with all of this?

[A]

So I was 15 years old. I'm 34 now. This is the only thing I've ever done in my life, basically. So I was. Yeah, I was 15 back in Serbia. And in Serbia we do have high schools, but they're specialized high schools. So that is when I decided to become a graphic designer at 15. And so after that, I finished the Academy of Arts for Graphic Design. Graphic and web design. And then after that, I got a job in Las Vegas, and I was working in one science and printing company, and I started freelancing on the side. And then I discovered Craigslist. So I was posting on Craigslist. Yeah, I mean, it was awful, but I was trying to figure out, like, how do you find clients? And that was like, before Instagram became a thing. Like, Facebook was already kind of there, but I don't think it was so much for a business. LinkedIn. I don't even know if I knew about LinkedIn. You know, it was at that time where you had to figure out how to get clients on your own without social media, you know? So I was posting on Craigslist like crazy. Like 21 posts a day. And it was weird because you were allowed to post only three posts, but then I had seven fake email addresses.

[B]

Oh, the ethics behind it all. This is awesome. This is hustling. That's what I love.

[C]

That really is.

[A]

And oh, my God, few months ago, I actually found some of those posts because they were all copy paste, right? And it's like the same post because it's just important that your posts are on top. When someone puts graphic design literally was like cheap graphic design services. That was like a title.

[B]

What a great value. Prop.

[A]

Positioning. Come on.

[B]

Oh, my God, there's so much to unwrap here. I love it. But you're right. I mean, back then you were gra. Whatever you could do to get attention, right? Yeah, fair.

[A]

Exactly. And I was charging $65 for a logo design and so I had to get a ton of work to cover my expenses.

[B]

Amazing, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And then so I moved from Vegas to Denver and then I was working for just a couple of weeks in one printing company while still trying to make it work on Craigslist. And then I discovered meetup.com which is this website where people can just register and find events that suits them. And so I found that I can just go to networking events. And I'm a little bit different than most creatives. I'm an extrovert, so I like being around people. And so I discovered these networking events and as soon as I started going to networking events, I started meeting people, I started learning more about the business. And you know, even though I was okay as a graphic designer, that doesn't mean that I was able to make it into a successful business because it's totally different, like knowing how to design a logo and knowing how to sell that logo. So, so then I was going to those networking events, met amazing people and started getting referrals. I was going to three to five different networking events per week.

[B]

Fantastic.

[A]

So it was all about like Val, you know, like volume game. Yes. It's either posting or events or events. But I had to like make it work, I had to meet people. So yeah, it was like my part time job going to events and that's how I started like getting referrals. And then I started blogging on the side and things just took off from there. But I never really used social media. How you see now young freelancers on Instagram posting and TikTok and whatever. It's just like I never got to that point because I was already able to start get to get referrals.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. So then you put a lot of. Obviously you're still networking quite a bit. Yes, yeah, yeah. And we'll talk about that a little bit later. But then when did things start ramping up then you. From this hustle stage to then, you know, I mean, again, busier, busier, busier. And then you start bringing on people for this.

[A]

Yeah, it honestly took two years where I was just. Because I didn't know what's gonna work. So it was like one of those things like throwing spaghetti, you know, just like figuring out like post here, do this, do that. And even though I was going to three to five networking events, they were all like, not all, but most irrelevant. I would go there and meet people, people that have nothing to do with my industry nor know my target audience. Whereas now I go to one or two a month, like, that's it. And they're super targeted, where I can either meet my clients or my referral partners who are people that send that work with the same target audience. So it's kind of like, you know, I felt like I was working harder and not smarter.

[B]

Again, we all learn, right? But you're. You're paving it. Did you always know you wanted to have an agency or were you just kind of letting it go?

[A]

Yes. No. Yes. It was literally, even when I was a kid, I was saying to my mom, I'm gonna have an agency. I would even, like, make a drawing of, like, a table and chairs and who's gonna sit where.

[B]

So that's funny. So you always knew you wanted an agency, but you knew the route to get there would be through graphic design, Is that correct?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah, that's great. That's exactly, like, crazy. That's exactly what happened with me. So that's cool to hear. I wasn't crazy.

[A]

Am.

[B]

So then you're two years in and then what happens?

[A]

That's when I was blogging on the side because I started learning more about SEO and how maybe one day I don't have to go to that many events and I can actually work a little bit more from home and be more strategic. And so I started blogging, but English is my second language, so. And at that time, I didn't have chatgpt to proofread it, and if I needed someone, then I would have to pay them to proofread my blogs. And that would, to me, it would be okay, but it would still be an expense. So I would write a blog post, and then my husband, who's an American, so he would proofread that after his work, and it was like one of those things like, like just trying to figure it out. And then as I started getting clients, even just like a few months after that, I just started increasing my pricing on Craigslist. So instead of 65, I was charging like 240.

[B]

Oh, that's actually four times.

[A]

Exactly. I got to $3,000 for a local design. On Craigslist? Yes.

[B]

Wow. Nice. That is huge.

[A]

But that's like a maximum max. There's like, no way you can go past that. I mean, I don't know. But so then I started even getting, like to 10k months. And then I realized, okay, I'm gonna hire like full time, not full time blogger, but someone who's gonna write articles for me so that I don't have to write Them, and that's gonna bring in more traffic. And even though blogging took time, it was totally worth it. And I was paying just like 40, $60 for that one blog post. And then I would post like, four to eight blog posts a month. And then as I started specializing and writing blog posts or having that blogger write for me, even more clients were coming in, because it was all, like, very niche and very specialized, and we were able to target the right target audience and using the keywords and all of that. So that's. That's basically how it all started. Basically where I was separating myself from Craigslist and cheap design services.

[B]

Good niche. I think you're in a better niche right now.

[A]

A little bit.

[B]

We talked about this before, but I want you to share. What were some of the fun ways that you would make you look like a bigger agency?

[A]

Oh, my God. Why are you putting me on the spot?

[B]

Because, and in all fairness, we're proponents of this. We had a podcast that was about how to make yourself look like a big. And there's so many benefits. We're not talking about tricking people, fooling people, lying.

[A]

Exactly. There is value to this, so I don't know. There was a part of that, too.

[B]

Okay, Fair.

[C]

Cool.

[A]

This is good discussion. I think this was. I. I don't know exactly what year, but honestly, it was like 2017 or 16, so not that long ago when it was just me. But I changed everything on my website because I knew I want to grow. Grow into an agency, and I want to charge more. And in order to hire people, I have to charge more. I had to get more leads or better leads and so on. So I started changing everything to sound like we.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And it was like, we can help you with this and that. We can do this. And to be honest, like, yes, I didn't want to lie. I even had one freelancer that outsourced to just come up with colors or something like that so that it's still me.

[B]

I would. I would also include my contractors, my print agency. Right. I would include that underneath the umbrella. Early days. As part of a bigger, extended team. Now that's a lot more accepted. People seem to include contractors.

[A]

Yeah, it's like a floating agency model.

[B]

But, you know, when we were doing this, it was just like, you know, you. It was still the extension of your team, just not necessarily on the payroll, which is okay.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The one thing that was 100% lie was that when someone would reach out through a contact form, my assistant or my whoever would Respond. And it's totally just me using a fake name and then cc'd my own email and then responding with that so that it sounds like it's us and not me.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

But that was a lie. That's totally fake until you make it.

[B]

Yeah, right, right.

[A]

But it's just that one tiny step.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Oh, you know what? Honestly, I. I remember early days telling customers, no, no, no, don't come to us, we'll come to you because your time is more valuable and we recognize that and we want to see your. Oh my. All the different, you know, lines and everything. And really it was only a small, you know, 400 square foot office with two people in there. Yeah, we sounded like a 20 person shop right from the start.

[A]

Exactly. Or the other thing was that every time I would talk to a potential client and I would be like, so what is your timeline? And they say, we would like this project completed in four weeks. I'm like, oh, well, let me look into my calendar. And I mean, I know I'm available. I can start right after the call.

[B]

Oh, I love that.

[A]

But I'm like, well, let me just look. And then instead of starting on Tuesday, I'll be like, I'm not sure I can do it this week, but I can start on Monday. And then they're like, oh, okay, yes, yes, we want it. Okay. I just need down payment this week to reserve your spot.

[B]

That's amazing. That's a good one, actually. That's cool.

[A]

But now that one is true. Yeah, now I literally have like starting spots, like, I don't know, September 23, October 21, and I have like a few spots here and there where we can start. Because now when I work with a client and when we are starting to work on a project, it's basically a full day brand strategy where we started from. So I have to have those blocks. And now it's. It's all the things that I used to do anyway.

[B]

Do you think that maybe you were putting these nuggets out into the universe and it just kind of materialized? Because that was the direction, that was the spot. And it's just you got there, you were already there. It's just, it just, you know, it was a matter of, you know, how big or how full you became.

[A]

Yes, 100%. Now, I mean, we can totally go into the law of attraction and how I set everything up, but.

[B]

Absolutely. And I, I do think that there was some of this with you because it all just seemed to work out very perfectly.

[A]

Yeah, But I feel that everyone can get to where they want to be if they know exactly where they want to be. And so many people don't know that. You know how many times I hear, oh, I want to have a successful business, And I'm like, what does that look like? And they don't know. And they're like, well, I want to make money. Okay, how much money? Well, it would be good. No, give me the number. Because then we're going to break that down into how many clients you need, how much you're going to charge, how many leads you need, how often you have to post, and how often you have to meet people and connect with them and so on. And then we will get you to that goal. You just have to know your goal first.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. At what point? So, I mean, I love the fact that you had a path and you always knew where you're going to go. Did you always know you were going to be a niche agency?

[A]

No. Yeah.

[B]

So let's, let's unpack this treat because that's something. It's obviously a favorite topic for me.

[A]

Yeah, I love talking about that because it is one of the things that really helped me become successful. And that is because. So I was just stuck making like 3 to 7,000amonth. It's not bad. I mean, it's fine, right?

[B]

But.

[A]

But nothing was changing. And I didn't create a business, but I created a job for me. If I was to work in a design agency here in Austin, Texas, I would be making the same amount of money and probably even working less, to be honest. So it was coming to that point that it didn't make sense. So I started googling marketing agencies. How can I do ads? Or what is that that I need to change? But I never thought about niching down yet. And then I went to this one networking event where I person that knows a good marketing agency, they introduced me to them and asked for help. Like, okay, so I need help with Google Ads. And they looked into everything that I had. They looked into my website, into my niche, which was graphic design and web design and logo design and poster design and flyer and like absolutely everything. Right. And so they literally came back and told me, we don't know, we don't think we can help you. You have too many competitors and we don't even know where to start from. Unless you want to niche down. And I said, no, there's no way I'm gonna niche down. I don't want to put myself in a box because I imagined that Now I will have to work on logo designs for realtors only for the rest of my life. That's what I sew. And I'm like, I am not doing that. And then they were like, well, let me show you an example of that. And then they showed me a couple of examples, and I was still like, I don't think that's the right thing for me to do. And then I started thinking that this is not the right marketing agency for me. And at some point, I was like, you know what? I can always stay where I am at the moment, and I can always go back to where I am, or I can try to implement something and see how that goes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So I actually told him yes. And paid like 3 or $5,000. I know that it was exactly the same amount how much I was making that month. And it was so scary for me to do because it was like, all the income that I made that month. Now I have to pay them. But they helped me so much as we started talking about, like, niching down, about choosing a specialization. It wasn't even just about, like, niching down, because niching down always feels so, like, oh, I don't want to niche down. I want to specialize. Right. It's just a different word, but it's true. Yeah. And so they asked me, what would I like to do? Where do I see this business in five years? Like, all the good stuff. Right. And I didn't know exactly what my niche would be, but they gave me some suggestions. And so I think I mentioned real estate just because I had a lot of clients in real estate, even though I wasn't passionate about that, but I was like, well, maybe that's it. Like, I don't know. Then the second one was something fashion, I don't know. Just because I like high heels. Like, I don't know. I was like, I mean, I don't know. And then they suggested health and wellness. And I'm like, okay, whatever. Let's see. So we actually wrote three columns and all potential clients. Okay, real estate. That doesn't mean that I will be working on personal logos for real estate agents, but maybe that is an apartment complex. Okay, cool. That sounds fun. Like, I would like to see a huge logo of mine on an apartment complex. Maybe that is a hotel, maybe that, you know. So I was like, writing down all these things that can go under that one niche. And so I did that for every single one. And I actually really liked health and wellness. And I'm like, okay. And I've worked with a couple of wellness or actually they were health product based businesses and some kind of like clinics and small hospitals and whatnot. So I was like, well, I even have parts and pieces of a portfolio that I can change. And so I started going health and wellness. It's still very broad.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then I started getting clients that were all like chiropractors, gyms, spas, all the like service based businesses that are more on the health side, not so much on the wellness. And then I realized, well, I actually don't like this. It's so boring.

[B]

Okay, okay, okay. The practitioner is not so good.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's all the same. They ask the same questions. They want it to be blue or purple and green and there's so much into what they think they should do. There was no room for me to explore. And you know how that especially like when it's a hospital.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

If it's a hospital they, they have certain rules and there's no room for creativity. And it was so boring and draining. And I was like, you know what? This doesn't work. And then I got one skincare line and I loved it. I didn't know anything, I didn't know much about packaging but I was able to make it work. And I just like really love this skincare. So I was like, well, how about I now focus on product based businesses only then I will not be getting hospitals, spas, gyms and you know, things like that. So that will all be on the side. And so health and wellness product based businesses.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Eventually that got to wellness product based businesses. Then now I'm working with a lot of skincare product based business and now it's just like, even that like feels super broad because there's so many different skincare lines now that you know exactly all the ingredients. Is it natural or it's not, is it clean or you know, it's like all these things I feel like you can never narrow down enough.

[B]

No, it's true, it's true. It's absolutely true. We, we started with just technology, then B2B technology and then it was, you know, Iot companies and then it was broadb company. Like we are so niche and, and we probably could keep going, but I think that's the apprehension of, you know, designers is they, they think, oh, you're only going to be doing real estate logos for realtors. And that's not really what specializing.

[A]

That's a good word.

[B]

No, that's not what that's about. It's just narrowing your field of View. You could still so many people within that space.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, and now that I have that niche, everything becomes like, everything is so much easier now. I have this like four step process for every single brand. My proposals. Oh my God. The other day I was recording myself. It took me like four and a half minutes to write a proposal because it's a template and you just change the price. It's the same process. You change the price based on how many products they have within that skincare line. And you know, it's just like so much easier.

[B]

So when you talked about when you started doing networking, you said it was a part time job, you were at networking event after networking event. Now you're only doing two networking events a month. Talk about the difference of that.

[A]

Yeah, so but now I do a lot of podcasting and that's how I connect with people and on social media because I really need that like outside fix. Yeah. So now I go to two networking events a month and even then I feel like I'm just going there to talk to people, make friends, have free coffee. I'm joking. But you know, it's like literally this one event is CPG event. So consumer packaged goods, it's all product based businesses, a lot of health and wellness product based businesses. And if not, then I meet people who offer different services such as Amazon ads for products. Right. They all have my clients. So it's like amazing. And sometimes, for example, like a few months ago now, it's been like almost a year ago, I met this one woman, she has a pet product and we talked and she already has an amazing designer and her packaging is amazing. And now we are like almost best friends. Like we live super close and we don't even talk about business anymore.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Now we're just friends.

[B]

Well, it's true, because you're networking now is a lot more targeted. You're having better conversations. So instead of going to a networking event and being like, oh, you're a graphic designer, I'm a graphic designer. You do logos, I do logos. And you know, and you can't separate yourself. But now you're going to events, you're talking to people about packaging, you're not only talking to them about packaging, but what's trending for packaging, what's hot right now, what converts better. Then you're finding all these other contractors who support your niche. And so now. Exactly, you're going to these events and again, you're just becoming this specialized powerhouse of knowledge which then they're going to seek you Out. And that sounds like that's what's happening right now.

[A]

And the other thing is that now I have an amazing photographer that I always send all my clients to. And so when I talk to my clients, I'm like, so once we are done with your labels and packaging, I will send you to this amazing photographer here in town. So it doesn't matter if my clients are here in town or not, but they can ship the product and then I go to this photographer studio and act as a creative director because I already know what we need for the website and what we need for social media and they hire us immediately.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

That's how I'm like closing a lot of sales because now I have this network and it's not that they just come to me for branding services, but I can help them with figure out how to even make more sales, connect with UGC creators, people that promote their products, people that do ads, you know. So it's just like this huge network like support that I can do for my clients.

[B]

Now let me ask you, do you think, because you went from solo to agency to specialize, now knowing what you know, do you think that freelancers are too small to niche or specialize?

[A]

That's a good question.

[B]

Put you on the spot here.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I know. Well, I don't know. I, I totally understand why someone wants to be a freelancer and many people thrive working alone. However, I feel that freelancers can always get to that cap and they need some kind of help. Either that is a virtual assistant, a salesperson, someone who's going to help them execute the projects. Like maybe they can design a logo, but then they need brand guidelines. It takes so much time to put that document together and it's not as creative, you know, but it can always like outsource and hire help. So I feel that when you are a freelancer and when you specialize, you can still like yes, definitely. I feel like every single person needs to specialize because when a client comes now for all the freelancers listening, if a client opens 10 different tabs, which they will do and if they see a graphic designer or a graphic designer for their specialization, you're out. Like you're out for sure. Like their niche like 100%. And not to mention that on Google they will not even put graphic designer, but they will put graphic designer, skincare or something like that, they will always use one of those words. And that's just like Google. But there are also keywords like that. And you know how often even now we still get questions. Have you ever worked with a clean skincare line? This and that. I'm like, okay, yes I did, but in the past I didn't have that, you know. So, you know, I feel like every designer needs to specialize in order to grow. And you can become broad later on or you start broad and specialize, but you can always make changes. Like I feel, I feel like running a design business shouldn't be so strict with like rules like, oh, you have to, have to, have to, but explore and see what's working well.

[B]

And again, I think that, you know, you can still be broad in services offered but still specialized to an industry. And you know, that's, I mean we've, we've been a full service agency since, since day one because I didn't want to be bored. I didn't want to just do print ad after print ad. So trade shows, websites, brands, you know, experiences, multimedia displays, you name it, we did it. But it was always for a niche, it was always for a specialized industry.

[A]

That's exactly how it's here too.

[B]

Like it's not, I don't feel it's hindering you because you can still do everything. It's just helping you be a specialist in a specific lane.

[A]

Yeah, right, exactly. I mean even now we offer everything from, I always say branding and design agency because I don't want to be associated with like, oh, website design only or anything like that. So we start with brand strategy, then we have visual identity, labels and packaging and the website and for website we even provide a copy and I do have a contractor for that just because I don't have the need for a full time employee for website copy. So that is something that's outsourced.

[B]

Yeah. You know, the benefits of niching isn't just, you know, like everybody's all harping that it's going to limit them. But what it's going to limit is the parts that we hate. We hate having to recreate a new process because we have to learn about a new industry. We hate having to, you know, go and find out all about these new customers and what their thoughts and their. When you start picking a lane. Right. The ramp up, the time to ramp up is so quick and I don't really like that part, I like the creative part. But the ramp up is essential. So now that we have Elaine, we, we know the clients, we know the industry, we know the products, the technology. So you know, our ramp up time now has gone from 20, 30, 40 hours down to a morning, maybe an afternoon, tops.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And we can get onto the fun stuff, and clients appreciate that, and so do I, because again, now I don't have to spend. Imagine if we had to do a proposal that took four hours every day.

[A]

Every time it took four hours.

[B]

Right. And now four and a half minutes.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And the other thing is, like, literally, as soon as I specialized, I got my time back.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

As you mentioned, proposals, getting clients. Now I can just go on LinkedIn and search for skincare business owners in Austin, connect with them, send them a note, or connect with Amazon specialists in Austin, or it doesn't matter. Location, I would say in Austin. But, you know, and then connect with them and start getting clients. And, you know, it's just so much easier. Saves so much time and effort. And. And when it comes to branding, project as well, I don't have to learn about the industry. I already know a lot about the industry. Like, yes. I'm gonna still, you know, do some research and look into their direct competitors and things like that, but it's, like, very easy.

[B]

Do you think people need to have a change in mindset to embrace, you know, specializing or niching?

[A]

Yes. And I think that a lot of people decide to specialize when they're already so desperate, when they're like, okay, I don't know what else to do.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So before even comes to that, I think that everyone should know that they can always go back to where they are. Yes, you can always go back to being broad. But if that doesn't work for you, why wouldn't you try to specialize? And if my niche doesn't work, what, as designers, take us like a week to change everything. Just make changes to the portfolio. Have some fake portfolio case studies. I mean, I call this fake. A lot of designers hate that when they say, oh, it's a fake portfolio, but it's a conceptual project. Whatever. I'm like, it's the same, but whatever.

[B]

Yeah. But now the conceptual makes sense and there's a reason for it. Right. As opposed to having a whole portfolio of conceptual everything. Right. So there is. It is still intentful. And I do find that.

[A]

Yes. And the other thing is that many designers are afraid to specialize because they don't have enough portfolio pieces and they don't need to have more than like, four. That's enough for nice case studies, like scrolling content per each. That's enough.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Clients don't even want to open 20 portfolio tabs.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So what strategies did you use? Or did you use any strategies when you first started getting into a niche market to kind of, you know, allow you to get to that higher pay, better clients. Was there anything that you did initially other than tailor your portfolio?

[A]

Yes. So that was at a point where I was working on visual identity only. So I would design a logo. You know, clients would come to me even though I was already like a specialized designer and I was trying to grow into this agency. But every time when a client would come to me, I send them this questionnaire. What colors they prefer, fonts that they like, logos, Pinterest board.

[B]

And that still exists? I hate to say it, I see that all the time. And I'm like, no, no, no, guys.

[A]

Yes. And not to mention that you don't even get relevant like responses because they don't know. Like sometimes I would get like, oh, I love these 10 logos and they have nothing in common. And I'm like, okay, so might as well not be like, why did you even respond?

[B]

I love it when, when we, we have so many times gotten, I want our website to look like Apple's website, right? Make it look like Apple. Well then when you give them an Apple esque website, minimal, a lot of white space, you know, focusing on products.

[A]

They'Re like, it's boring.

[B]

What is this? This isn't what I wanted. And it's like I think you are embracing the brand, not the actual website. And because they're not at that brand stage, they can't, they can't. So again, customers don't realize, they don't know what they know. Right?

[A]

Yeah, exactly. So I started looking for or searching for how do I make these brands better? And that's when I discovered brand strategy and started learning more about full brand strategy. And it was kind of confusing because there's so many different resources and I thought there has to be this like one template that I would follow. But then even when I did follow, I would ask clients some questions, they respond and I have no idea what to do with that information. Like your vision. Okay, cool. Who cares about the vision and how do I connect that with a logo? You know, it was like, until I really learned how to do full brand strategy that then I can translate into visuals. And then I realized, well actually I'm providing so much value now to these brands and I shouldn't be charging like 3,000, 5,000 anymore. And I honestly went from like 3 to 5,000 directly to 12,000 because I was like, I have to make this work. And in order to make that work I have to hire someone because if I'm doing brand strategy and it takes me like 40, 80 hours. I can't charge this much. You know, like I have to, I have to grow. And I got yes for 12,000. And I'm like, okay, that works. So that was like first proof that my, my work is valuable and everything that I do, I can make more money. But not just that I am now really helping my clients. Because when I look into the logos that I designed in the past, some were bad, like really bad. And some were okay, but maybe not for that brand. And so all the things versus now, they get like full brand strategy. They know exactly what they should do, who their target audience is, their brand attributes, all the good stuff. And then they also get like the visuals. And then of course, now that I work with product based businesses, labels and packaging and the website and when I package all of that, I can charge 25,000, 35,000. Sometimes even that is low. I remember working on this one, visual identity for $5,000. And I was so proud of myself, like charging 5,000. And I wanted to offer them a website as well, kind of like an add on. And I was about to say that it would be like 4 or 5,000 and they said, no, we already have a website designer. You know, it's 25,000. And I'm like, like what? Like I, at first I thought I didn't understand. I don't even know why my client shared that. It probably accidentally. And so I'm like $25,000. And then later I looked into that website and it's almost like a landing page. And so that was. But it's a very good website. It's all focused about like on the conversion and making sales. So it doesn't matter if it has 20 pages or two pages.

[B]

Yeah, I understand.

[A]

But I didn't understand that in the past where I would think like, okay, I'm gonna charge $500 per page depending on how many pages they have. And so it was this, the whole thing. So the way I was able to increase my pricing. Yes, it was specializing and really understanding my target audience and then bringing on that extra service, which was brand strategy. Yeah. So that I provide more value to my clients.

[B]

Would you. I know about the blogging and the importance of that. Would you blog on Instagram? Would you update your Instagram profile? Would you do. Was there small things like this to put yourself out in the business world?

[A]

Yes, it took like a couple of hours. I just added health and wellness in front of every branding word. So it's not branding anymore. It's health and wellness branding.

[B]

That's deep.

[A]

Yeah, right, Exactly. But even like my Instagram, my Instagram profile, now for my company, I know we didn't post anything for the past, like three or six months or something like that. And even prior to that, my manager would talk to my designer. So my manager would write a blog. Not blog post, but caption, and then my designer would design. I think it's just a single post. And they post that. And we were posting on Instagram once a week, just so if people check on our Instagram that they see that we are alive, that it's not like closed company. Exactly. And we even now have pinned posts. We're not active on Instagram. Like, we are here. Like, we exist. Our clients are coming, and I think I even share. Our clients are coming through blog, LinkedIn and networking events. So there is no point for me being on Instagram. But if you want to work with us, this is our email.

[B]

That's actually smart.

[A]

Because I don't want to focus on Instagram or add one more platform because this is what's working.

[B]

Do you think that in order for you to take this next step or designers, they need to fully embrace and believe it, or do you think it's more of like a stepped approach? Almost fake it till you make it in the sense of, okay, I'm going to go for health and wellness. I'm not the expert yet, but I like this industry. I can do this and I'll be the expert, even though I'm not. Now, do you think, or do you think they have to be the expert initially?

[A]

No, they don't have to be the expert at all. They just have to start. Because you cannot be an expert before you start. And in order to start and to start getting those clients, you have to position yourself as an expert and to really almost even like, convince yourself, I'm the expert. I'm there. Like, talk to yourself. I am the expert. I know what I'm doing. Even when you don't. You will figure it out. Ask ChatGPT. You will figure it out. You know, it's like you have to start from summer in order to start getting those leads and clients. And then eventually you will even replace all the portfolio that I just talked about, like the conceptual projects, you will replace it with real projects. You know, it's like you just have to start. You really have to believe in yourself. And I know that sometimes it's hard, but there are many YouTube videos on that that people can play. And now we are Getting into this, like, woo woo things.

[B]

But what's interesting is, is you took a very logical approach in choosing your niche, your lane, your specialization. I mean, we've always told people, easier said than done, of course, but always shoot from your interests first, something you're really passionate about, because it makes it easier. But I like how you approached it in a more logical sense because I feel that that is if somebody isn't. And I know a lot of people that just, they're not passionate about anything. They work, they like to work and they're happy to work, but they, you know, they're not, you know, gung ho into something. But you, you took logic to this and you took more of a big business mindset and, you know, picked some lanes that you had, you know, interest in. Maybe not completely 100% passionate about, but interest. And through that, it sounds like it's developed into a passion.

[A]

Effy. Yes. But I also think that these networking events helped because I met so many different business owners and entrepreneurs, and so I feel like they were shaping my mind from cheap design services on Craigslist to how to actually build a profitable design business. Because I would hear from them. Like, I went to this one networking event, and the person who I talked to, he's like, so who's the owner of your company? And I'm like, it's me. Oh, I'm talking to the owner. You're not a salesperson.

[B]

People really like that, don't they?

[A]

What do you mean? Like, salesperson. Oh, maybe I can hire a salesperson. Or no, maybe they really like talking to me and they're surprised and that's the benefit. And so, you know, you start thinking about, like, all these different positions within one company and where I want to be in my company and then who else I need to support my company. So I think that, you know, just going to these networking events and meeting people and hearing that, you know, quick little feedback helped me shape my mind in terms of what I want to do and where I want to be.

[B]

Yeah, very cool.

[C]

Cool.

[B]

And now. And now your agency is at a rocking pace, and you're growing like insane right now, right?

[A]

Yes, but I don't want to grow anymore.

[B]

It's funny, there comes this point where it does. It feels like it's almost too much.

[A]

Yeah, I know. Because now I have these like, six, seven people and some contractors, and it's like, we're really at a good spot now. The only thing where I'm seeing growth or where I want to grow is like, maybe Increasing pricing. So instead of 25, now we're going to charge 35. Instead of 35, it's going to be 45k and things like that. But I don't want to have like 100 people within my agency and have managers and I feel like then I'm losing that connection with the creativity and I want to be the creator director in my branding agency. But that's why I started this Preventive academy on the side, because I started getting my time back, hiring people. Now I don't even work more than like 15 hours a week on my branding agency. Everything else is like Preventive academy for that Instagram profile, doing podcasting, connecting with like minded people. And so yes, now I'm at this stage, like, what? What am I doing?

[B]

Dude, that's an incredible stage.

[A]

Yes, it is. It's fun and it's challenging, but different challenge than when you're starving and not able to, you know.

[B]

Well, let's talk about then, unstarving people and, you know, Eventative Academy. So how did this even start? Because, you know, you weren't even in. I came from a different era where there wasn't any information on how to do what we do, you know, and you've kind of shown in such a short time you can be successful and then you already want to teach other people to be successful. So where did this come from? And good on you, by the way.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Well, it started again from one of the networking events. It was called Fresh to Design, I think, or Fresh to Design, something like that. And so I went to that event thinking, I'm going to connect with these people who are growing, like growing businesses, design business owners. But instead I met with freelancers who are just starting. I mean, the name itself, it says like fresh to Design, but whatever. So I started meeting these people and they started asking me these questions. Who did you hire first? How did you get 10k clients? How did you build your portfolio? Like all these questions and I'm like, oh, I kind of like this because now I have the knowledge and I felt like really good helping those designers on the spot. So I was like, well, you know what, I'm going to start this Instagram account called Aventive Academy. Because Eventive Studio is my business. Didn't put thought much behind it. Like it will be just the academy, you know, just that. And then maybe I'm gonna attract some designers. So I created one carousel, you know, 10 slides. I think now you can do even 20. I mean, it's crazy, but like, you can do like 10 slides. How to get clients. Of course, that was like the first topic because I didn't know what else to talk about. Okay, how to get clients. And I started getting followers like crazy. Like, I think in just few months I hit those, like 10k followers, got the swipe up button, all the things it used to be in the past when it's Instagram now, everybody has the link and whatever. And so I was just like getting a lot of followers. A lot of people were asking me about things. And then I built the profitable designer program, which is my online course. And I think I priced it at like 400. People started enrolling. Then I went to 600,000 thousand 500. And people are still, like buying and getting amazing, amazing results, like charging from $7,000 for visual identity to $25,000 and whatnot. So I focused so much on that one course. And then I started adding, like different PDFs and freebies. And then I went into this, the whole digital marketing thing. It was like starting a different but very similar business. And then as my branding and design agency grew and I had kids and so I started working less and less and realized that I actually don't have to work as much in my branding agency as I was outsourcing.

[B]

Good.

[A]

And hiring and, you know, again, like, getting my time back. So I was able to really put time and effort into the academy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And now I kind of like do both depending on the day and how I feel. And even like this morning I was playing with AI, probably even like too much. I was like, I know, I'm like, in Photoshop, like, playing. And I'm like, no, I have better things to do. Actually should respond to these emails and whatever. But I have to stay on the ground and keep it all relevant. Because if I don't play with AI, it will just in two years, I will not know how to use Photoshop.

[B]

It'll be almost unattainable to catch up, won't it?

[A]

It'll be like starting over.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Exactly. But it's so much fun.

[B]

So now you've got, obviously you've got your business, you've got the academy, and then you decide to have a podcast. Why didn't you make the podcast part of the academy? Like just an extension of.

[A]

Or it is.

[B]

Or it is more or less.

[A]

Yes. It's supported basically. Even like in my intro, I say like, my name is Katie Sandel. This podcast was brought to you by Aventive Academy. And so my podcast is all educational content. And then I Talk about my courses so people can buy my courses. That's. That's kind of like support. It's almost like a marketing tool. But I really enjoy it. I love it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Love doing my podcast. I do like having guests, but I also like doing solo podcast episodes. So it's kind of like a mix. Mix of the two. Especially, like, when it's solo episodes and it's like 2am and I get this idea I'm gonna record it, and you.

[B]

Just run downstairs and do it, right?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Because then it's like 20, 30 minutes, and it's very short, and it's usually based on a question that I get from a designer on Instagram most of the time, so it's like, very easy for me to record those podcast episodes.

[B]

So how are you finding the time, then? And I know we talked about a little of this beforehand, but how are you finding time then to create all the shorts and posts and this and that? And then you have kids in the mix and are you a master at time management or.

[A]

I'm tired of. No, I don't think so. So right now I work only 9:30 till 2, so what is that, four and a half hours a day? Yeah, that's. That's for both. But I have a very good support system where I have those B rolls that I told you about. I think. I think I said that before the recording. So let me just say it again. But basically what I do is when I'm designing something, when I'm talking to clients, when I'm recording a podcast, I just have a phone on the side recording me. And then I can cut that video into short clips. And that's my reels.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then I upload that into a folder, and my manager, my virtual assistant, she takes that, she writes captions, she puts a title. My designer would design a cover, and they post it. So I sometimes don't do absolutely anything. And they can pull all the content from my course. So it's still, like, very original. It's all coming from me. So it's not like a random virtual assistant, like, putting things together. It's all my content. Yes. And then when it comes to carousels, now that I've been posting carousels for the past four years, we are reusing some of the past carousels, just making some changes. My designer would do that. And so, you know, even though you see me, like, being super active on Instagram, it's mostly me in stories. That's what's accurate. Because, I mean, when I'm talking. I'm talking like nobody else can do that. Podcast really doesn't take much. It takes me like 30 minutes to script because I just write notes, not fully scripted, where I have to, like, read the whole thing. 30 minutes. 30 minutes to record. Maybe a couple of hours if I have a guest newsletter is also like 30 to 45 minutes. What else for event two academy? Almost nothing. Like, nothing much.

[B]

You make it sound like it's so easy, but I think I gotta sign up for the Academy just so I can figure out how to time manage like you.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And I mean, it's just the. The right support system. Yes. Like, when I'm working with clients, I'm the one that does sales calls, which that is now getting a little bit more difficult because they are getting so many leads that I'm, you know, it is getting a little bit more difficult. Like, yeah, I will have to figure that out. Either I will hire someone to do sales for me, or I will have to have someone write my newsletter or something else so that I can get that time back. But we'll see. That's now the thing. But I'm like, oh, I don't know what else to do. I think now I'm like, max, do.

[B]

You so support systems process? I mean, generally designers, this is something designers need to learn. And I mean, there's so much benefit to it. But I remember initially I heard process and I cringed. Do you think, you know, you can create enough processes where you can. A freelancer or, you know, or the freelancer can double up their overall productivity, their revenue? Is this something that can happen at that freelance stage? Or do you think you need to take your business to the next level first and be reactive to it?

[A]

No, I don't think you have to take your business to the next level first, but you have to have the money to pay another freelancer to support you, whether that is a virtual assistant or another graphic designer or a blogger, like I did or whatever it is. Like, you have to get to the point where you can put some money to the side, because the main difference between being a freelancer is that you're doing everything by yourself, yourself, and you're keeping all the profit and all the money versus here. It's actually not that, you know, like, you have to, you have to pay. So, like, you have to get to a certain point where you feel comfortable, maybe even, maybe even before you feel fully comfortable, at least outsource some parts of your business. Because if you are constantly working in your business, you will not be able to work on your business. And it's. It's so hard.

[B]

Yeah, I think maybe that's where, you know, it's almost a mind, a mind shift change that needs to happen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When people think freelancers, they think this, you know, nomad lifestyle, they can do what they want free and, and free of chains. But you almost have to think of yourself more as that solopreneur, where it's still a business. If you're charging money, it's a business. So it's okay to bring on some outside help, you know, contract out and learn how to charge for that, learn how to build it into your costs. Learn how and then see the value. Because I think that's where, you know, hustlers, you know, at the beginning it's like, oh, I'm not going to hire someone to do that. I can do it, I can do it. I can do it really fast and this and that. But when you start embracing and start relieving yourself and delegating some of these tasks, your productivity goes through those roof. So I remember I used to do my own books. I used to think that was the only way it could be done. Why would I pay somebody? But man, how liberating was it when I found someone to do my books?

[A]

I think that that's the first thing that I mentioned, like, at least hire a cpa, at least that. It takes so much time and effort and it's so not creative.

[B]

Yeah, it's so true.

[A]

But now that you mentioned freedom and flexibility, I think that now I have more freedom and flexibility when I have the team than when I was a freelancer. Yes. As a freelancer, you can work from anywhere in the world. You can work whenever you want. But as a design agency owner, when you have the team, you actually don't even have to work as much.

[B]

True. It's true. Right. When it's a good team, that's for sure.

[A]

Exactly. I was able to take two months off last year, month and a half this year because I don't have to actively design and talk to clients. I know that my team has my back. Like, yes. Sometimes, like on Friday in Malta, I'll check my email just to make sure nothing's falling apart, but that's it.

[B]

Yeah. How do you. So you know, because you have a brain strategy background as well. How do you think or how would you recommend freelancers or people scaling up their business can keep the quality rock solid while bringing in contractors and slowly growing their team to the next level? How do you make sure that that doesn't get out of control because that might be a fear for some people.

[A]

Yeah. When I first started bringing on contractors, before I had hired anyone, it was just another freelancer who would help with brand strategy or who would help with visual identity a little bit. Like, she would send me an illustrator fil design a little bit. I would send that to her. Like, it was a lot of like micromanaging just because I want to make sure that we are delivering the same quality that I promised to this client or that they're paying for because they're working with me as a freelancer and they sell my portfolio and they want to work with me. And I even asked my clients, hey, would you mind if I bring on more people? And they said, we don't mind as long as you keep the quality of work. Work at that level. And then I was like, oh, okay. And so I don't even. Like four or five years ago, I found this one girl on Facebook, actually. Someone posted they're looking for a graphic designer, freelance graphic designer. And she posted she's a graphic designer. I clicked on her portfolio and I just loved it. And then I reached out to her like, hey, I have a client for you, but it will go through me. So it was kind of like, like I was trying to figure that out. Like, how does that exactly go if it's a freelancer and not a full time employee, Not a part time employee, because I already had employees. But I was just trying to figure out, like, how would I outsource? And then I had this fear. What if she starts talking directly to my clients? What if she tells them I paid her 5,000 and I charged my client 12,000, you know, like all the things. But that's not a case. It's just a fear that we have. But as soon as you let that go, like, yes, of course you might find a shitty person that will do that. But then you're like, just, I don't know, it's not going to happen. You know, so you have contracts in place and all that. And yeah, it's just a lot of micromanaging at the beginning until you realize that you actually don't have to micromanage. Like now all my designers are better designers than I am. Honestly, like, they're, wow, amazing.

[B]

That's. That's a sign of good leadership though, because again, a good leader hires people better than they are or trains people to be better than they are. So good on you.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Honestly, like, all my employees are like, better, like like, they just see differently and they're so focused on one thing at a time versus when. I'm now. I'm now more on the business side, not so much on the being inside a program. Yes. This morning in Photoshop, but. Yeah, exactly. But also a really cool thing when you work with people and when you have your team is. It's so collaborative. Like, we were just working on this one pet product, like labels, and my designer sent me the files and I'm like, oh, something's missing. Something. Oh, how about we just add this? And she added. And that was it, like, approved from the client, no revisions, no questions asked. And we both, me and the designer agreed. Like, yes, that was what was missing. Or it would be, like, wise for, like, different, you know, so it just, like, feels really good to have another set of eyes or a few more eyes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where we can all look into this one project and then, of course, I can charge more because the quality, I think, is also at another level when few people are working on it. And one.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So a confident leader expresses, you know, that their. That their team is better than they are in skills. How. How do we instill this in. In people who are slowly starting up this journey? How do you get this mentality? Because I, again, I. You would think people become very protective when they start, you know, and nobody would ever admit, oh, somebody who I hired is better than me. But that is what it takes, isn't it? How do we help people overcome this apprehension?

[A]

You know, it's funny, as soon as I said this to someone else, like, I don't remember who and when, but I basically said, I think that she's better designer than I am. I'm almost, like, offended. Like, how is that possible? Like, I hired someone who is better. Like, what? And then someone told me, well, Steve Jobs was always saying that he was hiring only people that are better than him. Nobody at his level or below, only people that are better than him. And I'm like, oh, I kind of like that. Okay, cool. It makes sense. So let me look more into that. And I was actually reading about it. Like, how does that work? How do I hire someone who's better than me? Then why aren't. Why. Why don't they have their own business? And to be honest, some of them don't even want to have their own business. They would rather have this nine to five. And I have a friend, she lives in Paris, and she always says, I would hate having my own business. I love clocking in. 9:00am, 5:00pm that's it. And I don't think about it. And I'm like, like, I don't want. Like, I would never want that. You know, it's like we're all different. So even if a designer is now listening to this and they're thinking, I actually want to have, you know, like, work maybe for someone else or something, it's totally fine. Not everyone has to have this, like, big, successful, profitable design business or whatever. It's just like you have to figure out what you want to do in your life and then kind of like go from there. But. But yeah, all these designers that I hire are just amazing designers and not so much into business. They don't want to talk to clients. Like, sometimes they would have trouble with that. I'm like, I just need one more person to be on my sales call. And I can't find anyone from the whole team and I don't want to force them. I just want one more person. And they're like, no, no, no, I don't want to be here.

[B]

Do you know, I. It's like I had. We almost. I almost had to go to Vegas, you know, back to your hometown for a conference.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was hard to try to find somebody else to come with me. I'm like, how do you guys not want to do this?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

It's tough.

[C]

In all fairness, I'm his. His partner in crime, basically. But I just couldn't make it this year.

[B]

So then I had to find somebody else.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And, yeah. And it was. In the end, okay. You know, somebody did step up and it was great. But I would think people would jump over, you know, working 12, 14 hour days in Vegas for three, four straight days. I would think that's cool.

[C]

But no, apparently nobody wanted to do that. Strange.

[A]

Crazy.

[B]

Crazy. Oh, all right, well, listen, before. Before we finish this off with our fancy dancy, you know, fire round questions, how are people going to find more about you, your academy, and all the amazing things that you can help with?

[A]

Yes. So they can find me on Instagram at Aventiv Academy. They can find our website, Aventiv Academy, and they can find the profitable graphic designer podcast on all the platforms. And I think that that's it. Yeah, that's it.

[B]

That sounds so much better than the angry designer. Yeah, I mean, the profitable designer. I think more people would lean to.

[C]

Be profitable or angry.

[B]

I think I might need some branding help from you. Rebrand time.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Starting at 8,000.

[C]

Oh, always working. I love it.

[B]

Okay. As you know, we finish off Every conversation with a lightning round questions. Okay. That are gonna give us an idea of who you are a little bit more of, you know, you know, what you stand for. And mostly it's just all about fun. You know, I always say you won't be judged, but you will be judged.

[A]

I know. Now you're gonna ask me, like, who am I going to vote for? Or something like that.

[B]

Oh, wow. Oh, hell no. We're not going anywhere. Not even touching that.

[A]

I know. Hopefully.

[B]

That's awesome. All right. Okay. Two minutes. Are you ready? Okay. Ready.

[C]

Okay, here we go.

[B]

Mac or PC?

[A]

PC.

[B]

Paper or tablet?

[A]

Paper.

[B]

Favorite music?

[A]

Depeche Pode.

[B]

Oh, good on you. Morning person or night owl?

[A]

Morning. Like 4:30am oh, yeah, but that's not.

[B]

Bad because the kids are work. Favorite color?

[A]

Black. Yeah, it's not a color, but good choice, good choice.

[B]

I mean, look, it works. Favorite childhood cartoon?

[A]

I don't know. SpongeBob, Ren and Stimpy. No, that was later. I don't know. That was later.

[B]

That's okay. There's a favorite brand of makeup.

[A]

Oh, that's a good one. Olay.

[B]

Olay. Okay.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Do you have a favorite superhero?

[A]

Not really.

[B]

Okay, no problem.

[A]

No, my daughter is now all about, like, freezing me. So I'm that kind of superhero as well. Like, she's running and I'm like. And then she's frozen.

[B]

Wow, that's brilliant. Jeez. Mouse or stylus?

[A]

Hmm? Stylus.

[B]

Favorite graphic design trend right now?

[A]

Oh, I don't know anything about trends. I. It's like I'm so bad with that. It's almost like I don't even think they should exist because everything should be timeless. But.

[B]

Coffee or tea?

[A]

Coffee.

[B]

Carnivore or vegetarian?

[A]

Carnivore.

[B]

Puppies or kittens?

[A]

Kittens.

[B]

Pirates or ninjas?

[A]

Ninjas.

[B]

Which do you prefer to clear your mind? Yoga or hit?

[A]

Hit.

[B]

Oh, wow, that sounds tiring. Favorite graphic designer?

[A]

Oh, I don't know. Many, many to count. I know I'm not going to.

[B]

Okay, how about a favorite artist?

[A]

Favorite artist? Now, when I say a lot of designers will be like, what? I think Jackson Pollock.

[B]

No, there's nothing wrong with that. That's actually good.

[A]

Yeah, but a lot of designers don't agree with his approach. And. And I've heard that in the past, so.

[B]

Well, I mean, in all fairness, I mean, he's pretty popular, so I think you're okay there. And he's done really well.

[A]

And Dali, of course, and all those, you know.

[B]

So, which is closer to your heart? Rgb or cmyk?

[A]

Cmyk.

[B]

Serif or non serif?

[A]

Non serif.

[B]

Favorite font right now?

[A]

Oh, I don't know. If I say Poppins, designers are going to hate me, but that's okay, we.

[B]

Won'T because that's our font, so. But everybody's hating on it lately.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that's my font too. That's your font, is it?

[B]

It's our font too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I knew there was something smart about you. Illustrator.

[A]

Photoshop, Illustrator.

[B]

Morning smoothies or late night snacks?

[A]

None.

[B]

Oh, that's why she looks so thin. Damn it.

[C]

I know.

[B]

True or false? AI will replace designers.

[A]

No, it will not. It's totally false. It will replace designers that are not using AI.

[B]

Good, good, good answer. What is your dream brand to work with in the health and wellness space?

[A]

I don't know. I actually don't know because we work mostly with like, small to medium sized businesses, but I can tell you that I would like to work on like, like supplement companies and meal replacement shakes.

[B]

Like, something like that. That would be fun too.

[A]

So, I don't know, you know, it's not a name and they're not famous, but something like that.

[B]

Okay. Okay. What's your guilty pleasure?

[A]

I like to drink. Ah, not a lot, but I do.

[B]

Dude, I. You know, if I could be drinking scotch right now with you, it's gonna be great.

[C]

What's your drink of choice?

[B]

What's your drink of choice?

[A]

Prosecco. Now.

[B]

Oh, that's very nice. That sounds very fancy.

[C]

Yeah, that does.

[A]

It's actually not that fancy. It's like a eight dollar bottle in Costco.

[B]

I love it. Okay, what burns more calories? Pilates or chasing your children?

[A]

Chasing my children. I'm like, I don't know the right answer, but this is what I feel.

[B]

And last but not least, what's one thing that always makes you angry when someone is late? Oh, yeah. You strike me as the type that would make me nervous. I. I'm glad we were on time and. Yeah, wasn't she here already when we got here?

[C]

No, no, we came here first.

[A]

You thought that I'm not here. That's what you guys talked about? How good looking you are?

[C]

That's what it was.

[A]

You just didn't see me. But I was here.

[B]

All right. Oh, that's amazing. Well, you know, you accomplished the two minute fire round question in just under five minutes, so good on you.

[A]

Amazing.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, that's pretty good.

[C]

That's great. You did great.

[B]

Oh, Katie, thank you for doing this. This is. It's always fun to Talk to you. I love having these conversations.

[A]

Well, thank you so much for having me. And I feel like now it's time to have you both on my podcast because I had only half of you. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

This half. This half, Sean.

[C]

Well, it's the better half.

[B]

Oh, I'll take that.

[A]

The better looking half.

[B]

Apparently. You know, according. Listen, you know what? Thank you for what you do with your academy and your mission. I. I appreciate that. I think that the world is, you know, the world of design is so much better now, coming up with people like you who are putting out real good content like this that, you know, otherwise they wouldn't get other than through trial and error. So good on you. Thank you for all this. I know.

[C]

I love that. I think that's. That's very cool. Like.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

You know, you're really working hard still.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I love. I love what I do with both with a studio and with the academy, so it's my pleasure to do this.

[B]

Yeah. Amazing. While drinking Prosecco.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

All right, I appreciate that. All right, everybody, you know where to find Katie and of course, you know where to find us week after week. Come back next week and. And I don't know why I said that. I never finish off with that, but yeah, just come back and listen to both the podcasts. Right. And. And for the record, you can go listen to Katie's podcast and figure out how to be profitable. Y. But don't leave ours forever. Okay. At least use this for some sort of creative content.

[A]

Yeah. Stay here if you want to be angry.

[C]

Yeah, that's right. You want to be angry.

[B]

Yeah. All right, everybody. My name is Massimo.

[C]

My name is Sean.

[B]

And you are?

[A]

My name is Katie.

[C]

Stay creative and stay angry. Peace.

[B]

Losing my mind everybody in the world die Please lord give me a sign.

[D]

I want to be the greatest everybody on the face I look around I feel like everybody is the fakers I make this every day and I'm impatient hoping one day I blow up from the basement statement the top is so vacant I don't hear that I think is amazing waiting for my day when I'm playing sold out shows for a thousand faces hey give me that crown get in my way and you'll be put down it ain't your place called this my town if I want that shit then I'll get it right now I'm losing it the noosy fits the moose and shit a stupid myth you choose to live or choose to dip you choose to fight or lose your grip and lose a gift oh, I.

[B]

Feel like I'm losing my mind Everybody in the world d Please, Lord, give me a sign A sign la.