From Surfboards to Porsche – How Pennybridge Went Global Without Selling Out

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Angry Designer - Episode "From Surfboards to Porsche – How Pennybridge Went Global Without Selling Out"

Introduction

In this episode of The Angry Designer, host Massimo engages in an insightful conversation with Paul Balf and Kyle Tillman from Pennybridge, a dynamic graphic design studio based on Australia’s Gold Coast. The discussion delves into Pennybridge’s journey from a local studio adorned with skateboards and Blink-182 posters to collaborating with global brands like Porsche and Wu-Tang Clan, all while maintaining their unique, fiercely independent spirit.

---

1. Origins and Founding of Pennybridge

Paul Balf begins by sharing the humble beginnings of Pennybridge. Initially a freelance endeavor alongside a publishing agency specializing in extreme sports magazines, Paul’s passion for design and advertising organically led to the formation of Pennybridge. Balancing night school and day projects, Paul highlights how helping brands with their advertising strategies laid the foundation for his design career.

Quote:

Paul Balf [07:07]: "I started freelancing between jobs, helping brands figure out how to advertise themselves, which eventually snowballed into Pennybridge."

Kyle Tillman complements Paul’s narrative by discussing his role at Silic Potato Press, a digital print company that evolved into a boutique signage firm. His hands-on experience with laser etching and cutting, coupled with his artistic endeavors, positioned him perfectly to join forces with Paul.

---

2. Merging Forces: The Birth of Pennybridge

The synergy between Paul and Kyle became evident over years of parallel work and mutual support within the local design community. Recognizing their complementary strengths—Paul’s business acumen and Kyle’s creative prowess—they decided to merge their respective agencies. This collaboration was further reinforced with the addition of their new partner, Jordan, who brings additional expertise and balance to the team.

Quote:

Kyle Tillman [12:01]: "Paul was running Pennybridge, and I had my own small agency for about seven years. Merging made perfect sense as we complemented each other’s strengths."

---

3. Business Strategies: Retainers vs. Project-Based Work

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Pennybridge’s approach to client engagement. Initially experiencing a "feast or famine" scenario, Paul emphasizes the importance of securing retainer clients that provide steady income and form the backbone of the business. Meanwhile, Kyle prefers project-based work, enjoying the variety and creativity it brings.

Quote:

Paul Balf [20:03]: "We’re trying to find a balance between retainer and project-based work to ensure financial stability while maintaining creative freedom."

The duo acknowledges the challenges in balancing large-scale projects like murals, which bring substantial revenue but require significant time investment, against maintaining ongoing client relationships.

---

4. Agency Culture and Creative Environment

Pennybridge prides itself on a vibrant studio environment that fosters creativity and collaboration. Surrounded by skateboards and bold artwork, the studio serves as a creative haven, essential for their in-house work. Paul notes the importance of separating work life from home life by maintaining a dedicated studio space, which enhances productivity and team cohesion.

Quote:

Paul Balf [32:42]: "Having everyone here allows us to quickly pivot and change project directions through spontaneous conversations, which is invaluable for our creativity."

Kyle Tillman echoes this sentiment, highlighting the need for constant communication and immediate problem-solving that an in-person setup facilitates, as opposed to remote work setups where interactions can be fragmented.

---

5. Client Acquisition and Networking

Pennybridge’s success in securing high-profile clients stems from strategic networking and leveraging connections. Kyle recounts how connecting with industry legends and actively participating in design communities propelled Pennybridge onto the global stage. Attending conferences like CROP and engaging with peers through platforms like Slack played a crucial role in building meaningful relationships that led to significant projects.

Quote:

Kyle Tillman [37:43]: "Connecting with the right people and leveraging the internet has been key. Reaching out to legends like Matt Dawson from CROP opened doors for us internationally."

Paul adds that fostering these relationships is vital, as ongoing collaborations and referrals from respected industry figures continue to drive Pennybridge’s growth.

---

6. Creative Processes and Client Collaboration

Pennybridge employs a unique approach to client pitches and project development. Transitioning from presenting multiple design concepts to utilizing stylescapes and mood boards allows them to streamline the creative process and ensure client alignment from the outset. This method reduces the need to "Frankenstein" designs by focusing resources on a single, well-informed direction.

Quote:

Paul Balf [44:04]: "Using stylescapes and mood boards helps clients visualize the direction early on, ensuring we can dedicate 100% effort to one concept rather than spreading ourselves thin across multiple ideas."

This collaborative process ensures that clients are fully engaged and onboard with the creative direction, enhancing the overall quality and coherence of the final deliverables.

---

7. Maintaining Independence and Agency Identity

Pennybridge’s fiercely independent nature is a cornerstone of their identity. Without a traditional agency background, Paul and Kyle have crafted their own unique processes and business philosophies, emphasizing quality over conformity. They resist the pressure to niche down service offerings, instead focusing on serving specific industries and maintaining a versatile, full-service capability.

Quote:

Paul Balf [54:00]: "We're creating our agency based on how we think it should run, not following conventional agency processes. This independence is what sets us apart."

Their commitment to independence is also reflected in their physical location outside major cities, valuing lifestyle and creative freedom over the hustle of urban agency life.

---

8. Overcoming Challenges and Continuous Evolution

The conversation acknowledges the inherent stresses of managing high-profile projects while maintaining creative momentum. Pennybridge continuously strives to push creative boundaries, balancing business efficiency with artistic innovation. Their mantra that "there's no finish line" encapsulates their commitment to perpetual growth and adaptation in the ever-evolving design landscape.

Quote:

Kyle Tillman [43:50]: "There's no finish line to this life, so we keep pushing the envelope to stay ahead and keep our creativity fresh."

---

9. Advice for Small Agencies and Designers

Drawing from their journey, Pennybridge offers valuable advice to smaller agencies aspiring to attract big-city clients:

• Build and Leverage Connections: Actively networking, both online and in-person, can unlock opportunities otherwise inaccessible due to geographical constraints.

• Embrace Full-Service Capabilities: Offering a wide range of services can make a small agency more attractive to diverse clients.

• Stay True to Your Values: Maintaining a clear set of values and a unique brand identity helps in attracting compatible clients and projects.

Quote:

Kyle Tillman [57:09]: "Connect with people, use the internet to your advantage, and don’t hesitate to travel and meet others in the industry."

---

10. Rapid-Fire Round and Closing Thoughts

In the final segment, Paul and Kyle participate in a rapid-fire round, revealing personal preferences and quirky insights that humanize the agency leaders. This lighthearted exchange underscores the vibrant and collegial culture at Pennybridge, reinforcing their approachable and passionate nature.

Notable Quotes:

Paul Balf [77:30]: "Helvetica is overrated."

Kyle Tillman [80:32]: "I don't like Helvetica because it's overrated, but Arial isn't better either."

Final Reflections:

Paul emphasizes the importance of balancing creative passion with the practicalities of running a business, acknowledging that even high-profile projects come with their mundane aspects. Kyle highlights the significance of meaningful client relationships and the satisfaction derived from solving real problems for clients.

Quote:

Paul Balf [66:43]: "The small, day-to-day tasks are just as important as the big projects in maintaining client relationships."

Closing Remarks:

Massimo commends Pennybridge for their journey and encourages them to continue pushing creative boundaries while maintaining their unique identity. Paul and Kyle express mutual respect and appreciation for the supportive design community, underscoring the collaborative spirit that fuels their ongoing success.

---

Conclusion

This episode of The Angry Designer offers a comprehensive look into Pennybridge’s ascent in the graphic design world. Through strategic networking, unwavering independence, and a balanced approach to business and creativity, Paul Balf and Kyle Tillman have built a studio that not only attracts high-profile clients but also fosters a vibrant, collaborative culture. Their insights provide valuable lessons for designers and small agencies aiming to navigate the complexities of the creative industry while staying true to their unique vision.

Transcript

[Paul Balf]

I think that's probably one of the biggest pieces I can offer as advice. Like, you know, you come into our studio and you see the blink posts, you see the skateboards on the walls. But one of the first things that we ask a client or a potential client when they come in the door is like, what's your business plan? And they're like, what? Don't you guys just do cool graphics?

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah.

[Host]

You're listening to the Angry Designer podcast where we help frustrated graphic designers crush the industry. Bull. And share what it takes to charge what you're worth and build badass, rewarding careers. What's up, Angry Designers? Let me ask you a question. What comes to mind when you think of Australia, right? Sharks, beaches, you know, bands like Men at Work, acdc. You know, I really aged myself right there, right? But there's this whole other side to Australia. There's an awesome design scene that not too many people realize. I mean, you know, Australia's got this bold, unapologetic type of style with their architecture and their graphic design and, and, and stuff. And it, and it all seems to surround around some of the big cities, you know, the Sydneys, the Brisbanes. But you know, off the coast, the Gold coast of Australia, there is this kick ass little studio that is just like killing the scene right now with their brands, with their edge, with their attitude. And we are very happ to be interviewing today or having a good conversation. Never mind. With Paul and Keel from Pennybridge. Kyle from Pennybridge.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yes.

[Host]

So Paul Balf bail. I couldn't, you know, I'm trying to figure out how to say the last name and I sound so stupid. It is just Balf.

[Paul Balf]

Okay, nice and easy.

[Host]

And then. Kyle Tillman. Sorry, man. Welcome, boys. Welcome.

[Paul Balf]

Thank you. Thank you for having us.

[Kyle Tillman]

We're stoked.

[Host]

So it's tomorrow morning, 8 o'clock where you are. Yes.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, we're in the future.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, in the future.

[Host]

Which is pretty crazy. Well, we're in the past and it's end of day, so we get to have a drink. So boys, cheers. Envy. Envy.

[Kyle Tillman]

We got coffee.

[Jordan]

Yeah, we got coffee.

[Paul Balf]

All right, all right.

[Kyle Tillman]

I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm, you know, I'm quite partial to a morning drink, but I was like, yeah.

[Paul Balf]

We'Ll have a morning whiskey. I'm like, just, dude, come on.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, and then I don't even drink whiskey.

[Host]

Hey, we're not here to judge, okay? Things are kind of upside down over there. Maybe. Yeah, like that. See what I just did there? Upside down. Right, dad joke.

[Kyle Tillman]

You know, they do say it's, what, 5:00 somewhere.

[Host]

Somewhere 6:00 up here, buddy. And you know what? I'm. True to form, we are having a single mold from Scotland. I couldn't find anything from Australia. Surprise, surprise. So we're trying something called the Ardmore, which is. It's a nice scotch. It's. It's quite peaty, which I'm a big fan of. It's actually really good, isn't it? I wish it was stronger pee, though, but still. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this. And it's light, so it feels really good. So this isn't sponsored by any way, but I want to rub it in so you guys can buy it while you guys sip your coffee. All right.

[Jordan]

What kind of coffee are you drinking? You want any shameless plugs down there or.

[Kyle Tillman]

No, it's called St. Ali, the one I'm drinking.

[Jordan]

Oh, okay.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, that's really good coffee. And it's just a long black or an Americano, you guys might call it.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah. So is it true that Australia is full of coffee snobs?

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, it is.

[Jordan]

For real?

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah.

[Kyle Tillman]

When we were in the US earlier this year, it was tricky to get a good coffee.

[Jordan]

Really?

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah.

[Host]

I mean, what are your options? Dunkin Donuts? Starbucks? You have to search for some now. There are some fantastic places if you know where to look. Yeah, but they're. They're. They're off the beaten path, let me tell you.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

So where did you get coffee? Because I know you guys were just. We missed you. We were just, like, just two, three weeks apart because you guys. This year, right?

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, we did crop this year, which was awesome. In Austin. It was my first time in Austin. Yeah. And then we spent a week in California before that as well.

[Host]

Cool.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah.

[Host]

So did Texas feel like Australia, just with guns?

[Kyle Tillman]

A little bit?

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. We didn't see any guns, surprisingly. Like, except for the tattooer, the only gun that we saw was, like, we literally had to up mask. And then the guy, we all got tattoos of our new logo and, yeah, he just randomly came out with a gun. He's like, do you guys want to get a photo? And I'm like, whoa. Okay. I guess if you want to. You got the gun, man.

[Jordan]

You're the boss.

[Host]

Say no to this.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah.

[Paul Balf]

Wow. It was good fun. His name was Mr. Cupcake and he looked like a big biky dude. So.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah.

[Host]

No, Mr. Cupcake, our friend. Wait, right? Was it Cupcake?

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

Johnny Cupcake.

[Kyle Tillman]

No, not Johnny. A Cupcake. Different.

[Host]

I was gonna be like, damn. But still, you know, you don't. You don't question a man, you know, called Mr. Cupcake who carries a gun. So.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, good on him.

[Host]

Right.

[Kyle Tillman]

His name used to be Animal, so.

[Host]

And in his age, he just became a little bit more brand friendly and did the Cupcake thing. I get it.

[Kyle Tillman]

I get it.

[Paul Balf]

There's a big story behind it, and it's.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, we might go into it.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. It's not worth repeating because we wouldn't do it justice.

[Host]

Yeah. But it's good.

[Paul Balf]

It's a good time. If you're ever in Austin, go see him and get a tattoo.

[Kyle Tillman]

And South Congress is over there.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah.

[Kyle Tillman]

And he will tell you.

[Host]

All right. All right.

[Jordan]

Okay.

[Host]

Well, you know, maybe next year. Right. Okay. So then when you guys flipped over to California, what was. What was that like? Was that. Did that feel like Australia or. I mean, I've heard stories that California. Well, certain areas of California are like. They feel like alien species. They're not even human over there. What was that like?

[Kyle Tillman]

Well, yeah, it is kind of similar to Australia in some aspects.

[Paul Balf]

Similar to the Gold Coast.

[Kyle Tillman]

The Gold Coast?

[Paul Balf]

Yeah.

[Kyle Tillman]

It is more just the layout and that. Like, it's all based around the coast.

[Host]

Yes.

[Kyle Tillman]

So, you know, our city is just really long, I suppose.

[Host]

Yes.

[Kyle Tillman]

It's not very deep. So, yeah, in that aspect, it is. And, I mean, there's a fair few Australians over there as well, so. But, you know, we were kind of catching up with people that we knew, or, you know, most of them ex Aussies.

[Jordan]

So.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, I think ocean.

[Host]

I didn't think people were allowed to leave.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah. Yeah. Oceanside was probably the closest to the Gold Coast. That was really cool there.

[Host]

Yeah, cool. All right, so. So, you know, your agency is like. It's from over here. It's just that when. When you first reached out, I was just. I felt like I. I found a piece of gold because it was just. It was such awesome stuff. Okay, so before we get too deep in it, what's the backstory? Where. Because you guys are how many years old?

[Paul Balf]

Eight, ten years.

[Kyle Tillman]

Ten years.

[Host]

Okay, so I wasn't too far up. I was just going by. By all. So with that. That was. That was.

[Kyle Tillman]

There you go.

[Host]

You're welcome. Where do you want to start? Like, how did this come together?

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, I guess, like, funnily enough, we've actually got a bit of a doco coming out about the backstory of Pennybridge. Hopefully in the next month or so, which you go in a bit more detail. But essentially, it was. It was never actually supposed to be anything. So I went out on my own freelancing just in between jobs, and was just kind of like, all right, cool. I need a trading day school for design. Or I did. Yeah. So, well, I went to, like, a night college would probably be the best way to explain it. So I was working in a publishing agency for, like, they had all extreme sports titles, so, like, surfing magazines, skating magazines.

[Host]

Very cool.

[Paul Balf]

All that kind of stuff. So that was kind of where I really fell in love with design and advertising and all that kind of stuff. And then I was working with a lot of the brands, getting them into the magazines, and then they're like, cool. What do we. Like, what do we show? How do we get ourselves out there? Like, what do we say? What? And that's. That's kind of where I started my design career, was trying to help them figure out how they should advertise. And then, yeah, at night I started doing night school and then just decided that's where I wanted to take my career. And, yeah, so I started doing that. And then a lot of the brands that I was helping ended up being my clients, which is really cool. So I ended up, like, designing wetsuits and just all this. All these kind of random bits and pieces I was just saying yes to. And then, yeah, it just kind of, like, snowballed from there, and I took a role, like, not too far in with a. Like, a big E commerce company over here. So the agency took a back seat for a year. But then, yeah, like, slowly, I just was like, all right, I don't want to do this. I want to, you know, I want to try and have a go at this or, you know, find an agency role. And I just said to my wife, like, you know, if I can make. At the time, it was like, 300 bucks. If I can make 300 bucks a week freelancing, then I've got all of our expenses covered for now. Like, and we used to live pretty close to the beach, so the idea was to, you know, have a couple of months off where I explored my style and went surfing. And then that didn't happen. I just kind of just worked and worked and worked and, yeah, it just kind of snowball from there. So.

[Host]

So were you, like. Were you. Were you doing more account management or were you actually learning design as you had opportunities to do design?

[Paul Balf]

I was learning design, so I was, like, learning at night, and then, like, the following day was trying to apply everything that I just learned at uni. To the jobs. And then at that time, Kyle had kind of was doing more and more stuff. He was at Silic Potato Press, which is like a. How did you describe it?

[Kyle Tillman]

It's weird. It started off as a digital print company, but then we sort of turned into, like a boutique signage sort of company. We're doing lots of laser etching and laser cutting. So, yeah, I kind of had the opportunity to use all those machines. So I was, like, illustrating and creating art and doing art shows and, like, on the side of doing, like, design and. Yeah. Running, like, you know, help run that business.

[Host]

Yep, yep.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

So you're doing more like design illustration. And then, Paul, you were learning the whole other side, the design side. So where did the. Did the account management come in, like, the business side from your job then, when you were dealing with these brands?

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. So I guess that's kind of why we've ended up making a really good pair is because. So, like, at that time, it was kind of like the genesis of Instagram as well. So this guy was, like, pretty much everywhere. So I was going to all of his workshops. He was a pretty big deal. Sorry.

[Host]

There's a good plug for you, Kyle. Right? You hear that? That was good.

[Paul Balf]

But, yeah, so, like, we. I mean, we kind of have worked in parallel for a long time, and then just over the years, like, catching up at events and everything like that. We kind of just were like. It was kind of weird. We were helping each other, but we were still competitors in a way. And then, yeah, one day we just kind of caught up and we're like, should we just merge? And. Yeah, it kind of. It was one of those things where it made sense. And then when we kind of told a lot of the other, like, local design crew, everyone was like, oh, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. We thought it was a big deal. So.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Paul Balf]

It's kind of a bit of a funny one.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, so we were kind of like. Paul was running Penny Bridge. And then I had. I had my own small agency as well for about, I think, seven years. So we're pretty much, you know, it's. You know, the Gold coast isn't massive. So, you know, we knew each other. We'd sort of end up coming up with the same sort of issues that we catch up, try and help each other and. Yeah, and then I was just going like, I'm not a good businessman. I'm good at a lot of things, but running a business is not one of them. So I was kind of beating my head against the Wall trying to make this thing work for about seven years. And then, yeah, it was kind of got to the point where it just made sense for us to join forces.

[Host]

But you're probably looking at it as, now I can just design and this guy can take care of the business side of stuff.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, I mean, a bit of both. Like, we. We all sort of. We all kind of make, like, joint decisions because we've got Jordan, too, who's literally just walked in the door. Hey, Jordan.

[Host]

Jordan.

[Paul Balf]

Hey, man.

[Kyle Tillman]

He's also just come back from his honeymoon. We haven't seen him.

[Host]

Oh, I'm. I'm really sorry about that, my friend.

[Paul Balf]

Sorry.

[Host]

I mean. I mean, congratulations. Sorry. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Paul Balf]

This is the third wheel.

[Kyle Tillman]

This is the other penny bridge owner. So, yeah, so now we're all partners and we all sort of help make decisions and, yeah, it's good. But, yeah, he does all heavy lifting when it comes to the business stuff.

[Host]

Yeah, kind of.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. Yeah. So to answer your question, that's kind of how it works now. So I guess. Yeah. From a. From the business side of things, like, I'd still do a lot of the account management, and then when it comes to the creative side, I'm slowly stepping out of that and letting Kyle and Jordan kind of, I guess, yeah. Run the ship in that sense. So, yeah, it's kind of one of those, like, things where you start to realize, like, what you're good at and what everyone else in this, the studio is good at and kind of just let it kind of getting out of your own way a little bit. Yeah, I'm still pretty bad at, like, going over everyone's shoulder and pretending that I'm a creative director, so.

[Host]

Dude, don't listen to him. All designers love when, you know, their creative director is over the shoulder. Right? You love when I do that, right?

[Jordan]

Yes.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. I just love holding their hand and driving.

[Host]

Oh, yeah, exactly. Here, here, let me just help you. It's not awkward, Sean. Trust me.

[Jordan]

See, it's normal. Good to know.

[Host]

So, so did you. What were the early vision then of. Of, like, did you guys envision what you have now, when you started, or were you just kind of like, just full of, you know, just. Just gump and just, like, just going to hit the ground running?

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah. When I started, I had no idea, really. It was the worst timing. My wife and I just had our second child. I didn't have any savings, but I was. I was working somewhere and then, you know, slowly taking days out of the week to just do my own thing. And it kind of got to the point where I wasn't doing either job any good. You know, I wasn't doing my old job any good because I was only there a couple of days a week. And so it was kind of like I had to or get off the pot. So I'm like, okay, if it's going to happen, this is when it's going to happen. Yeah. So, I mean, I think what we've got now is kind of what I, you know, always sort of envisaged.

[Host]

Envisioned.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. I have to remind myself of that pretty frequently. Like, I think the. Especially the last 12 to 18 months has been probably everything I had kind of envisioned, envisaged, or dreamed of potentially. And it's. It's when you're in the thick of it and when you're in, like, those really tight deadlines and everything's, like, really hard, you've got to kind of, like, step back and kind of go this. If. If 10 years ago I could picture where I am now, then I'd be incredibly stoked. Like, we. Yeah, we often bring up a workshop that Kyle had. I'd be eight to 10 years ago now, called work hard until your idols become your peers. And now.

[Host]

Yeah, that's great.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, it's kind of. It's. It's been really cool to. Like, when we were doing a couple of speaking events recently, we found that we were trolling through, like, old images, and we actually found, like, an image of me sitting, I think it was like, front row at one of cars workshops back then. And it's like, now we're partners. And then, you know, you see, like, some of the people that we get to talk to and rub shoulders with day to day. And they used to. Like, you guys.

[Host]

No, I kind of feel like it's cool on this side, but it's really.

[Paul Balf]

Cool when you kind of go, oh, those people that I used to look up to and now people that I can just contact if I need help with a project or.

[Host]

And it's.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, it's that full circle moment. So I think it's just. Yeah, that kind of reflection is really cool.

[Kyle Tillman]

That's.

[Paul Balf]

Sorry, I don't know if I answered your question there, but I'm just kidding.

[Host]

Well, you know, I think it started with you stalking Kyle and then acquiring Kyle and then kind of rotating into now building a brand, designing over his shoulders.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. So if anyone. Anyone's trying to get any advice out of this, it's just like, stalk people and then make them join work for this Guy.

[Host]

So.

[Paul Balf]

That sounds heavy. Yeah, let's not say that.

[Kyle Tillman]

No.

[Host]

So. Yeah, that's true. Right. Let's hold off on that one a little bit. But. Okay, so early days. Because, I mean, Kyle, you'd mentioned early days. You had no savings jumping into this. And Paul, I'm sure you weren't that far behind when. How long did it take before you guys started pulling regular paychecks that you could live off of vs starve off of?

[Kyle Tillman]

It was. I didn't. While I was running the business. It didn't. It was very much feast or famine because I didn't really have any regular income. So it was like just project by project to project.

[Host]

It's a hard way to sling a. Yeah.

[Kyle Tillman]

And then, you know, we're doing a lot of large scale murals and stuff. So those ones can have like a nice injection of money, but they also like take you out of the business for like a week or two. So it's really tricky to get those projects done and still sort of run the business and still get back to clients and still do all the other stuff, do the accounts, chase money. So it was. Yeah, it was, it was tricky. It was a long time.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. But still kind of figuring that out too because like, you know, if. I guess as a. With Kyle kind of running a lot of the creative direction and being at that starting point of projects, like if we do those large scale murals, like that's him out for a couple of days and then it kind of. You create that backlog. So trying to figure that out still.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah.

[Paul Balf]

A bit of a fun one, but yeah, I mean, from my side of things it was. I was pretty lucky in the sense that I had a couple of or a few really good clients that I would manage to get on retainer relatively early and they've kind of formed the backbone of what we do. And then just all the project stuff was just like fun and like just the added bonus. So a lot of our day to day was kind of chewed up with that kind of work, but. And still is to a point. So, you know, we're pretty lucky to have had those relationships and. Yeah. To have those ongoing like that ongoing work. And like luckily enough those businesses have grown and they've kind of added brands and additional businesses on and we've just kind of like grown in parallel.

[Host]

Yes. Beautiful.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. Which has been awesome.

[Host]

So do you prefer retainer clients or do you prefer project based business?

[Paul Balf]

Oh, that's.

[Host]

I know, I know, I know. It's a soft spot, isn't it?

[Paul Balf]

Yeah.

[Host]

Two different signs of thought.

[Kyle Tillman]

I'd say, I'd say projects, but really? Oh, I mean I don't have to, I don't work too much on the retainer stuff. Yes. Like little bits. I'm doing some stuff at the moment, but. Oh, actually no, I did. I'd spent like a whole month doing a whole merch range. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean that I think there's, there's definitely like even mini projects within those retainer clients. So those are sort of the ones that I. Yeah. Enjoy.

[Host]

Do you find a nice balance between the two or are you trying to strive for that or.

[Kyle Tillman]

That's what we're trying to.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah.

[Kyle Tillman]

Kind of lock in now. We've got.

[Paul Balf]

Trying to figure that out still. Yeah, yeah, it's. It's one of those things too. Like we're trying to find that balance of like when you do work with, even with a project, you know, you do a brand or a rebrand for someone, what. That looks like ongoing too. Because a lot of the times, you know, you hear of people doing work for someone and then handing it over and then they're like, oh, the client went and butchered it.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah.

[Paul Balf]

And we're trying to figure that out in the sense of like that's not necessarily the client's fault. If you haven't, if they're butchering it, then have you done a good enough job handing it over or have you done a good enough job of like allowing them to come back to you for ongoing help to make sure that everything is like rolling out the way that it should? So that's kind of like, we're kind of looking at branding more as like a long term thing as opposed to like project to project. It's like, all right, you know, it's that whole brand versus branding thing. Like brands branding something that you do every single day to influence perception of, of your brand. Whereas like a brand is what people think. So yeah, we're constantly trying to I guess stay on top of our clients brands and help them with a day to day branding and everything like that. So. Yeah, and that's kind of how we try and I guess think about our retainers is like, all right, cool. We're helping these guys like day to day with their brand and yeah, kind of looking at that whole brand experience day to day.

[Host]

Do you get into the weeds and like help them with their, their, their collateral, with their, you know, brochures, their sales pieces, the user experience? Because I know you guys offer a, a full agency, full of services. Yes.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, we're. It's one of those things we keep getting. We keep getting to keep get.

[Kyle Tillman]

What am I trying to keep getting told to niche down.

[Paul Balf]

Niche down. And we're kind of like, we can't.

[Kyle Tillman]

Fuck that.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. So I think we've kind of, when we talk about niching down, we've kind of niched on like who we work with, I'd say more so than what we work on. Absolutely. One of those things, like, I know you guys do a lot of, you know, web stuff. Like, if I was doing that all the time, I, like as much as I do love that. I think I would. I don't know, I just, I love doing everything from A to B to make sure that it works and then. But that, you know, that being a generalist kind of does come with its, I don't know, like draw cards as well.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, it's. It's trickier to schedule work and to know what you're doing every day. So if you, if you're a person that likes to know exactly what they're doing every day and likes to have a very structured sort of. This is kind of a nice path that they can.

[Host]

Yes.

[Kyle Tillman]

They know what's happening, then. Yeah. Probably our structure isn't the best, but yeah, for me, I love like the chaos and the craze and like, all right, what are we doing this week? We gotta do this, We've gotta do this.

[Host]

That.

[Kyle Tillman]

So. Yeah.

[Host]

Hey, but you still can though. See, because I still think that you guys are a niche company, just probably not in the way that you're thinking. Right. So. So we're a full service agency. Web is about, we'll say, maybe 20% of our business. You know, web's 20. It is, right? Web's about 20. Custom development, app development, UI. Right. That's maybe another 25, 30. And then half of our company is still printing digital social for our customers. Okay. So. And we are full service. We are one day designing booths, we're designing programs to run at booths. Another day we're doing, you know, acquisition campaigns online. Right. Trying to help a company with their drip campaigns. So we're very much a full service agency. But our niche is the industries that we serve. Right. So that's where we end up niching. We, you know, we're very, very targeted. You know, we play in that. It's not a very exciting place, unfortun, compared to what you guys do. But, you know, we're in the B2B Technology Company space and even more niche now. More than ever IoT and broadband space. So we're very niche company in that sense, but we offer full breadth of services. You guys offer a full breadth of services, but looking at your energy, your clients. Right. Like, niche doesn't necessarily mean your service offering. Right. Niche can also mean the industry you serve. It could also mean the style you deliver. And looking at what you guys create, you know, like intense, full energy, extreme sport kind of brands. I mean, we're talking about YouTube work for Porsche, for like Red Bull down there. You know, I had like Oakley, Wu Tang. Okay. Like, that's a fun one to jam in there. And you're making it all work. So I can't imagine that you'd want to take on, you know, aggressively pursue a spa. Right. That's going to be calm and, and, and I mean, maybe you do for a break, but.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, we do. You know.

[Jordan]

That'S bad.

[Host]

Kyle just wants a manicure. Don't, don't lie.

[Kyle Tillman]

We've, we've just done a, like a skincare company. So Women's very cool. A company that, that specializes in products for brown skin. So. Yes, that's like super niche.

[Host]

Yes.

[Kyle Tillman]

So we've worked with some, with the awesome owners of that business to, to do that. But that, I mean, they came to us because they saw our website and we sort of, they saw the intensity. Yeah. And they kind of, they, they read what we wrote and were like, oh, these guys are different. Let's go have a chat. And then like, they had a chat with Paul and I think it went for like two hours and they kept like, you know, Paul's like, talking business and how are you going to do this? How are you going to do that? Yes, And I think that's, that's why, you know, our, our tagline is an unconventionally professional, creative studio. So obviously from the outside, you see all the energy and the craziness and the sport and punk rock and all that sort of stuff. And obviously we're sitting here with bloody Blink 182 posters behind it. Awesome.

[Host]

Blink 182.

[Kyle Tillman]

But, you know, we, but then when it gets to the crux of the actual business and the work, like, we're highly professional. So. Yeah, so. And I think that's why we, when Paul said it's the type of person that we work with is our niche. So it's like just unconventional brands, or just even not so much unconventional brands, but just unconventional thinking people that sort of.

[Host]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Kyle Tillman]

See the value in sort of stepping to the left of what everyone Else does.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, Yeah. I think that's probably one of the biggest pieces I can offer as advice. Like, you know, you come into our studio and you see the blink posts, you see the skateboards on the walls. But one of the first things that we ask a client or a potential client when they come in the door is like, what's your business plan? And they're like, what? Like, don't you guys just do cool graphics? Yeah. So, yeah, it's kind of. And when we kind of engage with people like that, they kind of like, oh, these guys mean business. Like, they know, like, they. They know their stuff and then. Yes, but they know that, like, we know what to produce out the back of that as well. And what's going to allow them to, I guess, enter their market or reinvent themselves in a way that's going to help position them the way that they want to be positioned in the market. So, like, you know, we've had, like, lawyers and stuff come in, and, you know, traditionally that would be a pretty boring kind of world that. To live in. But yeah, like, that's been super fun, like, you know, working with people that are like, all right, cool, I want to do something different or. And maybe different's not the word.

[Kyle Tillman]

It's more just stand out in the industry that they're in.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, well.

[Host]

And in the energy, you know, in all fairness, people are coming to you, like you said, even though, granted, you know, backfired on me, but it was a spa. Who came to you, but they came to you because of your energy. The lawyers came to you because of your energy. I mean, you're selling them because of your business prowess. But, you know, what you guys are delivering is. Is just this, you know, raw, in your face, intense, you know, awesome work that is business led. It's focused, a strategically focused. So, you know, I think you're closer to a niche than you think you are, just maybe not in the same sense how some people talk about niche. You know, like, your breadth of work has a very similar look, feel, and I think that that's probably what's attracting the people, you know, to you anyway. And I mean, I can't imagine that, you know, you're struggling to. To have people knocking on your doors with this kind of work. Is it. Is it still hard?

[Kyle Tillman]

Oh, it can be.

[Paul Balf]

I mean, we had up and down like a yo.

[Kyle Tillman]

I guess we had a pretty. We had a pretty massive meeting yesterday with a client that we weren't expecting to be meeting with at the end of this year. So that was pretty exciting. So, yeah, I suppose you're right. Like, people are seeing the energy and the work that we do and, and actually. And gravitating towards it. Like, there's something like. I know that a lot of people would see it and just be like, hell, no, I'm not working with those guys. Like, they would be put off.

[Host]

And you're probably better off.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah. It's the ones that we do draw in that are like, they get it and they're sort of. They're on board from the get go.

[Host]

Yes.

[Kyle Tillman]

And then everything that we do within that process of the project or, you know, continually working with them, that's. That's just like added extra so they already buy in because they see what we do, see how we do it. And then when they work with us, like, oh, this is awesome.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah, Very cool, very cool. What's the culture like there? Like, what kind of culture you guys.

[Paul Balf]

Growing in the, in the studio?

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, yeah. Ask the team. They've just got in.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kyle Tillman]

Which we try. We try makers.

[Host]

It's only 8:30. Come on.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, I mean, that's something that's continually, like, something that we're continually working on as well. Like, it's. It's really hard trying to run a business and, you know, keep culture, like, the culture within the studio, like, positive. So it's tricky. Like, we do our best. I mean, we, we try and sort of create a nice environment to work from. We're in like, right in the thick of Palm beach, which is pretty nice spot to work. It's only not a block away from the beach. Yeah, it's. Yeah, we do our best. We do, but it's, you know, running a business is tricky.

[Host]

It is tricky. It's tricky. How important do you think the environment that you're creating or that you're providing with the posters and, and with skateboards on the walls and such. How important do you think that is in. In, in getting the level of creativity out of your team, out of you guys? You know, can you do it at a coffee shop instead? Or is there something. Because a lot of people aren't in studio like you are anymore. A lot of people are remote. We're the same. We're 100% in studio. So I'm curious on your take on this.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, I guess for us, like, we've all, or most of us anyway, have all kind of worked as freelancers and worked remote previously. And it's one of those things when you've done it for a long period of time, you kind of realize that you need that. I don't know. I. I personally, anyway, feel like I need to be here with the team. This is where I do my work. It's where I disconnect from home. If I was like, yeah, if I was at home having that, like, I wouldn't be able to turn off. So as soon as we moved out to a studio and moved out of, like, of the home office, it was, like, the biggest change for me because, yeah, I could have that disconnect. I could all of a sudden, like, start to wind in or wind out of work, which I find super powerful. And then obviously, like, having everyone here, it allows you to, you know, quickly pivot and change or, you know, have a conversation that can completely change the direction of a project. I honestly don't know how people do it. Fully remote and hats off to them because I think, like, I think it's cool that people can do it. I just don't know how they would keep, like. I feel like the constant communication would be pretty hard. And then also, it's just like, rubber ducking people, right? Like, I love to just, like, ask. And before I've even, like, finished asking the question, I'm like, oh, cool. No, it's good. I got this, like, yeah, I think it is one of those things. Like, we're pretty happy with the way that our studio looks and feels, and it definitely creates a certain kind of environment for us to work in. And having this kind of work around us definitely helps inform how we design. So, like, colors and that bright brashness definitely is part of our brand. So, yeah, like, I think it is one of those things where I think having cool stuff around you definitely helps you be more creative, but everyone's different too. So, like, if someone gets inspiration from being at a coffee shop and, you know, people watching, then that works for them. That's cool, right?

[Host]

Right.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah.

[Host]

So, yeah, I find just from my own experience, and you're right for everybody, it's a little different, but we embrace the same kind of artwork, the same kind of energy that you guys do. And I just this. I can't work from home anymore. You know, sometimes if I have to get some, you know, business process done or some strategy thinking, fine, I'll do that. But anytime I need, you know, this creative thinking involved, I have to be here. I've. I've almost done myself a disservice now because I can't work. And whether it's the kids running around and constantly poking or just that this is now what I associate with, with my creative inspiration. I understand and I believe. And surrounding yourself with this kind of stuff, it's awesome. It's beautiful.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, it's good. Well, I'm with, I'm with you guys. Like, I've never really been able to work from home. Like, even when I was just starting out freelance, I'd go to coffee shops or like co working spaces and, and do that sort of stuff. And then, yeah, I've gotta be around people. Like, we've even just moved all our desks around so that we're all in one little pod together. Yes. Just so that we can all. Yeah. Just like literally turn your head to the side and say, hey, what about this?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, you can solve a problem like that. So there's not like endless Slack thread and notifications always coming in, like, I don't know. Yeah. Not sure how people do it. Like, I wouldn't be able to work if I was just. My slack was just going bing, bing, bing, bing.

[Host]

Well, and the funny thing is, and I mean, so we, we are anti slack here, okay. Internally, we have our own tools and again, we need internally enough to communicate different groups. But how many customers keep asking us to join up slack and join up slack? And I keep telling everybody the same thing. If every one of our customers was to add us to their slack, we wouldn't get any work done because we'd be being pinged all day long. That would drive me nuts. That would be anti creative.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah. Yeah, it's tricky.

[Host]

Yeah. So, okay, so how does a small shop, okay, far away, I mean, Brisbane is the closest big city to you guys, I'm guessing. How far? How close is that? Hour, hour and a half.

[Kyle Tillman]

About an hour, Hour and a half from here. Yeah.

[Host]

Okay, so how does a small shop, you know, outside of one of the bigger cities, but still not the biggest city, land customers like Porsche, Wu Tang, you know, Jameson, you know, the list went on. I mean, I'm just looking at your logo repertoire and it's just. I wouldn't surprise me if those bling posters came from your shop. So, like, it's just this, this is the stuff and it's, it's amazing. So how does this happen?

[Kyle Tillman]

I think it's all about just connection and connecting with the right people and, you know, like, for example, Wu Tang, I literally just. They announced a, A tour. They were doing three nights at the Sydney Opera House, which was like kind of crazy that Wu Tang were doing the Opera House. Yeah. And so I just hit him up Said I came up with a design. What do you think? And then just chased them up, chased him, chased them. And then next minute, I'm on the phone to, like, their brand manager. Like, his name's Power. And I'm just, like, on the phone and. Yeah. And then I got off the phone, I'm like, I think I'm designing their whole tour match for Australia and New Zealand. So it's just that sort of stuff. It's like, just connecting with people, you know, that's how we were able to go. Like, I was able to go to Crop and we all went over to America is just through connection. Like, I've just. You know, speaking of slack, I'm in a slack group with a whole bunch of other designers. Like, you know, the guys from Fried, from Brethren, Matt Dawson from CROP, Jason, 19, like, a whole bunch of awesome legends. And we've been in that slap group for, like. Like, probably eight or nine years now. Wow. So, you know, that was how I was able to go over and, like, speak at Crop and because we were like, we want to go over to a conference. And then I'm like, we got. We're going. And then so I just messaged Matt, like, man, we're coming. Do you want me to speak? And he was like, shit, yeah, let's go. Because we were trying to. Trying to make that happen, like, pre Covid as well, for me to go over and speak. So, yeah, it's just connection, honestly.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah.

[Host]

So once you start getting some of these giant brands under your belt and, you know, and again, they're not just like your average boring brands. They're brands that you have a lot of impact, very bold and brash. How do you keep evolving, like, your creativity. How do you keep evolving? You know, what. What you have to offer these companies? You know, it just seems like you keep setting the bar higher and higher and higher. Like, is that. Is that a whole level of stress altogether?

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah. Yeah, it is.

[Host]

These guys are so chill.

[Jordan]

Yeah, I know. I would never know you guys are stressed about something. Like, come on.

[Kyle Tillman]

We don't want to turn up on a podcast and just be like, man, don't do it.

[Host]

You know whose podcast you're on, right?

[Jordan]

Angry Designer. We want to see some anger.

[Paul Balf]

We were joking yesterday. We, like, think, you know, the way you guys have named yourself Angry Designers, but then end up being, like, the nicest guys ever.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yes.

[Paul Balf]

It's so funny.

[Host]

We've kind of screwed ourselves with our brand because it started as. As a very angry about a lot of Things, and we needed to take stuff out, and somebody had to say something.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah.

[Host]

Well, then we got it all off our chest, and then we're just like, well, let's keep going. This is fun.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah.

[Host]

Hey, now it feels the best. Great.

[Kyle Tillman]

Best.

[Host]

Stress relief. Okay. Just get angry.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

The passionate designers. Sounds too porny.

[Host]

Yeah. I don't know.

[Jordan]

So you can't do that.

[Host]

Can't do that one, right? Not looking like this anymore. Two guys like this burly.

[Kyle Tillman]

Well, I mean, everyone's got a thing. Talk about nation down.

[Jordan]

Yes.

[Host]

That's amazing. So then what do you do to keep creative, then? Okay. Since. To keep creative and keep amping up that game.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, I think it's the same as anyone else. Like, we've still got a lot of people that we looked up to, a lot of studios that we, you know, still look up to. And we're, you know, always seeing other awesome creative work that just. You kind of always go, all right, cool. Like, when the opportunity arises, let's do something like this. Like, you're kind of saving references and parking them. And then, you know, as a brief comes in or as an opportunity arises, you kind of reach out and go, hey, like, can we do something like this? So it's. It's, I guess, like anything, it's getting those. If you get a brief, it's kind of going, hey, cool. Like, I really like your idea. What if we tried this direction or try to 10x it by doing x or. You know, I've spoken to a lot of other owners of creative agencies and, like, asked similar questions, you know? Yes. People that I've looked up to, like, Barry from Analog is probably one of them more recently, and kind of went, hey, like, how. How have you gone into this kind of world? Like, and it's purely, like, sometimes doing the work that you want to do for. For people, even if you're not necessarily getting paid for that and just showing them that you can do it. And then the next, they either, like, want that service or, you know, someone sees it, and then they want that service, and it's just kind of that snowball effect. So we're kind of. We try and do that. So, like, if. Yeah, if a job comes in and we kind of go, oh, could we do X with this? Like, we did one recently, a couple of weeks ago for a 3D printer, and we just went absolutely bananas with it. And, you know, we started exploring 3D, exploring more animation, and the end result was, like, awesome.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah. We tried to quote it for them, and they said, oh, that's too much. But then we just did it anyway because it, like, it's. It's just that progression. Like, there's no finish line. I think that's the biggest thing from what we've figured out. There's no. There's no finish line to, like, this life, really, until you fucking die, I suppose.

[Host]

But I hear you.

[Kyle Tillman]

We just keep. We just keep trying to just push the envelope a little bit further.

[Host]

Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. So when. When pitching class customers the initial pitch that you did, do you go in with just one idea or do you have a strategy? Do you go in left, right, whatever?

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. So we kind of changed our process, what, 12, 18 months ago, and to the point where we were. We have only been doing one concept. How we kind of changed that was like, instead of doing multiple. I mean, like, it changes from client to client. There's been a couple recently where we've had to do the three, because we. Like, we've worked with them before, and they just want to be taken on the journey, and they want to know that you've explored everything. But generally, what we do is obviously, I have, like, the initial discovery session, and we, you know, try and ask as many questions as we possibly can and then try and formulate a direction from that. So that's when we kind of. We create, like, three. It depends on. Depends on the job, but it can be, you know, a certain amount of mood boards. So we kind of follow the futures stylescapes, and we found that to be really powerful in the sense that, like, people can really get a gauge or tell what direction you're wanting to go. And then it's like, all right, let's agree on a direction now. So these. Instead of, like, developing and concepting the three options or however many options, it's like, let's use the stylescapes and the mood boards to create those concepts. And it's like they're the. Let's choose out of those, what the direction is, and that's when we kind of Frankenstein and, you know, pull this that way and that this that way, and, you know, whatever.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, it's easier to do it with the mood boards rather than to do it with the three designs that you've done trying.

[Host]

Interesting. I never thought about that.

[Kyle Tillman]

Together.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Kyle Tillman]

Like, some clients, like, we have to tell them, all right, we're. We're showing you these three highly tailored mood boards. This is not the design. This is like, we have to. You have to educate their client with that process. But but once they go through it, I think they understand it. They kind of like a bit, oh, why are we doing this? Where's the design sort of thing? Some of them. But I think when we show them the end result and it's one and it's like bang on and it's exactly what they want, then they get why we do all that process at the beginning.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. So there's no like, ta da moment. And then they're like, oh, that's not what I wanted. It's like everyone knows what we're striving for. And then you deliver it and then you 10x it. And then basically it's like, so they know what to expect and then you're just kind of coming into the brand presentation trying to blow them away. So, like.

[Host]

Right.

[Paul Balf]

You know, it's just one of those things. There's no nasty surprises for the client. And then for us, like, we've all agreed on what direction we need to go and then essentially we can put 100% effort into one instead of 33% into three. And then, you know, potentially having to Frankenstein them all when the client decides that they want bits and pieces from each.

[Kyle Tillman]

Like, I like this.

[Host]

From each one.

[Kyle Tillman]

From this one.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kyle Tillman]

And then.

[Host]

Oh, we've definitely been there.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, yeah. And like, it doesn't really work because you've designed it that. On that one for, like, particular reason. Yeah. And then you've designed this one for a certain reason. You've trying to cram them together and force them together. Like, it's not natural. So it doesn't. Like it always. It's. It's a lot more reworking, like trying to, you know, smash concepts together.

[Host]

I do love this idea of, like mood boards and stylescapes and presenting that instead. It adds a layer to the process, but at the same time it takes out a layer in the conceptual stage because you're only then providing one because you've already got their buy in on. On the direction. I can see the value. Yeah.

[Jordan]

And like you said, you give a hundred percent to that one.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

That's rather than 33% to the other to three options. Right. That's.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jordan]

That's awesome.

[Kyle Tillman]

Like, it was, it was unnatural for me when I first, when we first merged, because I was like, I'm, like, I'm drawing because I'm very much a sketcher and a drawer, so I'm drawing ideas. Like, as soon as I get the email, before they even give me the deposit, my brain's, like, working and I'M like, yeah, we can do this. And then, and then I remember we got one client's like, and I'm like drawing the logo pretty much. And Paul's like, we got to do the sky. Got the stylescapes. Like, oh man. But I've like, drawn it. I got it and then. But like now I like, I totally get it and I'm on board with it because. Yeah, like, like it's like it's 100% onto that one concept. Yeah.

[Paul Balf]

Even if, you know, if Kyle's like drawn, it's, you know, that whole pool of share doing the city logo on a napkin kind of thing. Yeah, like, he can still do that. That's fine. It's just like, all right, cool. Let's still just go through the process to make sure that like, if we're going to do those mood boards that like, what you've drawn and what we think is going to be the final result is actually what the client's chasing because we can draw it and we're like super stoked with it. And then every time we've negated that process in some way, shape or form, it falls apart. And it does. It's true, you know, backtrack.

[Host]

Once you deviate from the process, it's just nothing but hell, you're absolutely right. So when Kyle gets a little too crazy on the creative end with, with, with the customers, Paul, do you have to reel them in and be like, okay, buddy, like, hold on, business first, process first, creative second.

[Paul Balf]

I, I have in the past, but that's also not what, like, we've got to tread that balance. Like, you know, we're, we're trying to develop our processes and our efficiencies and stuff like that. But I've been in that instance where you're, you can be over processed and over efficient to the point where you kill creativity. And that's not why, like, Kyle joined. You know, the whole purpose is that we create processes and guardrails and all that stuff so that we can allow creativity. So sometimes I have to like pull myself up on that as well and go, hey, like, we're creative. Business first. And all the other stuff is just like a tool to help.

[Kyle Tillman]

So let Carl play with his pencils for a bit.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, pretty much.

[Host]

Well, let me use something else then. So there's three of you. Okay. So you can't always agree and be on the same page, but because there's three of you, it's always going to be two or versus one. If you're not all you know what I mean? Like, there's always going to be. Does that. Is that ever. Like, how do you get around that? How do you overcome that? Or does that even never happens because you guys are so chill.

[Kyle Tillman]

I think we're all pretty much on the same page. I think that's why it works. That's awesome.

[Paul Balf]

But I mean, there's definitely been instances where, you know, I've said something and the two boys are like, disagree. And you just kind of go, oh, well, like, if it is two against one, then let's roll with what you guys think. And yeah, you know, and if you're.

[Kyle Tillman]

Wrong, yeah, I told you so.

[Paul Balf]

But no, it's. It's. I think we're pretty good in the sense that we try and listen to everyone in the stud studio. It's definitely. I only said it, what, yesterday or the day before, like, the amount of times I think one way and then everyone else in the studio thinks the other way and I just kind of go, all right, cool.

[Kyle Tillman]

Then it's one versus four.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. Like, I think it's just, you know, taking the ego out of it and going, all right, well, if everyone thinks one way, then let's run that way. Because, yeah, ultimately, like, yeah, you want.

[Kyle Tillman]

You want the best result.

[Paul Balf]

You want the best result. You want to go with the crowd.

[Host]

You know what I mean? You need to be able to think for yourself, to be a critical thinker. You need to be able to see that there is two different ways to go about things. If you're always on the same page, chances are nobody's pushing the limits if everything is always the same. So in a situation like that, I mean, God knows how many times I feel like a fool because I say something to the bigger team and they look at me like I'm. I might reject or something. Like, okay, I guess that doesn't work. But at the same time, it's. It's a good check. It's a good gauge to see, you know, like, at the same time, I don't want. I don't. I wouldn't want an agency of, you know, people saying yes to me all the time either, though. I need people to push back just like you said. Otherwise, that ego, I mean, like it or not, it's going to go through the roof if everybody's always like, good job, good job. Yes, good job, Moss again, that's.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, I think, yeah, I had something to say, then it's gone.

[Host]

I rambled. I'm sorry. Critical thinking, disagreeing.

[Kyle Tillman]

So, yeah, like, crazy ideas. We still need these crazy ideas. I think, like, I know, like, Paul.

[Paul Balf]

And I, we don't need any more crazy ideas.

[Kyle Tillman]

No, I know we're pretty good for like, let's do this, let's do this, let's do this. And Jordan's usually the one who's like, like, boys, we have all this work that we need to get through. You guys are trying to squeeze this thing in. Yeah, it's not going to happen. So. All right, so it's. Yeah, yeah. So then literally, he's just like the voice of reason. So. Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

Very cool. Very cool. Okay. Fiercely independent. How does an agency become fiercely independent?

[Kyle Tillman]

Just not owned by anyone.

[Host]

Come on.

[Jordan]

Expected a little more.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, no, I guess it's just like.

[Host]

Well, why don't we go first? And then this is. This is something that you guys profess, you know, and you refer to yourselves as, you know, agency wise. So let's first break this down and talk about this. So what exactly does this mean to you?

[Kyle Tillman]

One thing is like, neither of us have come from agencies or no one's really came from, like, an agency.

[Host]

Very cool.

[Kyle Tillman]

So we're creating our agency based on how we think it should run. Yes. So I suppose that's one way of being independent.

[Paul Balf]

But, yeah, so, yeah, so I think that's probably why it's taken us so long to maybe get to where we are, is because we are like, we've got this funny diagram of, like, around and find out.

[Host]

Love that.

[Paul Balf]

And we're like. So we've had. Because, yeah, we don't have a traditional agency background. No one's kind of been able to bring any of these processes or, you know, ways of thinking in. Probably the, you know, the only one would be Jordan. He's been a massive help in transforming that side. So I think that's probably where the fiercely independent thing comes from. But I think it's also just us, you know, wanting to always think independently as well. So, like, you know, like, I guess what you were saying previously about our style and how we think and all those different things, like, we don't, I guess, follow a conventional agency process either. We've built our own. It works for us. You know, probably how we run our team is diff. Very different as well. So, yeah, I guess it's that. And then we are, you know, we're not in one of the big cities, so we are sitting very independently out here.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, it's. But like, in Australia, it's. It's kind of. I mean, it's changing a bit more Post Covid. But you know, before that if you weren't in like the big cities, like it's, you're not even going to get a look in it, you know, at big jobs. So I think just running our own race, being super proud of where we come from and where we're based I think is another way that we're sort of really independent and not ex. Like we're not, not moving to the big city to try and make it sort of thing. We're trying to make it where we are because like at the end of the day it's all about lifestyle and where you live. And like we're so lucky to live here and work here that like I'm, we're grateful like all the time. So we don't need to commute for you know, hour and a half into the city and on train, on a crowd train or anything like that. Like, you know, most of us are pretty close to where, where we work. So yeah, that's definitely another way of being independent.

[Host]

So. So with that being said, there's a lot of small agencies and you know, small shops, two three person shops in little, little, little cities outside the middle of nowhere. What kind of advice can you give to them? To, to, to battle, to, to be able to get big city clients. You guys have huge global brands and you know, you are in just a small, little burp way outside the city. Like what advice can you give?

[Kyle Tillman]

I think it's like, just connect with people. Like use the Internet to your advantage. Don't let it overwhelm you, especially social media. Jump onto it and just start connecting with heaps of people and don't be afraid to travel to those other cities and meet people, visit studios. When we're in America, we visit a bunch of other design studios and randomly.

[Host]

Said, hey, can I come in?

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host]

Cool.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, we went to, I think the biggest one was Helms studio in Texas.

[Paul Balf]

Helms Workshop.

[Kyle Tillman]

Helms Workshop, sorry. Yeah.

[Paul Balf]

Absolute legends. By the way. Thank you for having us.

[Host]

Very cool.

[Kyle Tillman]

And like, you know, and then we sat down like they took us to lunch and then we sat down afterwards and like talked process and showed them how we pitch and you know, our, like how we put together our proposals, how we do it, the stylescapes, all that sort of stuff. So yeah, it's just about sharing and sort of building those relationships. I think that's the biggest thing.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. And then I guess just like fostering them moving forward. So like Kyle mentioned yesterday, we had a really big meeting, probably one of The. I'd say one of the biggest ones for our little studio that we were super excited about. And because we connected with Tyler Pate, you guys might know him as the creative pain over in the States. Like, I was able to reach out to him and ask him for advice on that pitch and, like, that was huge for us. And it's that had we not gone to America and done that, you know, we wouldn't have that friendship to, you know, rely on. And I think it's one of those things once you like. I think a lot, A lot more people are more welcoming and giving and giving advice than what you probably would think. So I wouldn't be afraid to reach out. We reached out to you guys because I think you guys are doing awesome stuff. Thank you. So, yeah, I think it's just a matter of reaching out to people and letting them know that they're doing a good job. And then also, if you want to know something, like, just ask. And, you know, the worst that's going to happen is someone either doesn't get back to you or they say no. Yeah. And, you know, we try and remind ourselves that a lot of people have helped us along the way, so we always try and, you know, help others and give feedback where we can. And it's.

[Kyle Tillman]

And like, you. You just sort of need to find those people that you, like, align with that, you know, as you're gonna kind of build a really good relationship with. Like, James Martin's one of them for me. Like, we've worked on lots and lots of stuff together. I've done lots of work for him. We're doing stuff in the future with him and. And it's like. And that just came from being Internet buddies.

[Host]

Isn't that funny?

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah. And then we, like, I remember through Covid, we did like Instagram lives together and, and all that sort of stuff. And then it just. We just like. Yeah, good buds. Like, we were just texting yesterday because we've got to catch up soon, but so just that sort of stuff. And like, James Barnard. I'm picking him up next week to carpool the Brisbanes.

[Host]

He's not that close from you guys, right? No, he's like.

[Kyle Tillman]

He's on the Gold Coast. He's. He is on the northern end. Yeah. We're the southern. So there's a bit of a rivalry there, but between the north and this.

[Host]

Between.

[Kyle Tillman]

But we. So we've got a. We've got an event in Brisbane next week. I'll pick out.

[Host]

He's doing a talk. Yeah.

[Kyle Tillman]

So we're.

[Host]

Do you know, small world.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah.

[Host]

His cousin is a, you know, who was a professional soccer player. I know he hates hearing that, you know, because it's really cool. But runs a soccer camp that is literally less than one mile from this studio.

[Kyle Tillman]

Wow.

[Host]

She has been, has been here like in this little tiny town in Canada and we're like you an hour outside of Toronto. Right. So we share a lot and so small world. Right.

[Jordan]

It's crazy.

[Kyle Tillman]

It is. And I think that's, that's the sort of stuff that you've got of like, you got to grab onto, like. And that's why you build relationships. You find out that, you know, it know like similar people. I, I don't know. I can't, I can't say enough how good it is just to connect with people and, and build those relationships.

[Host]

Yeah, it's true, it's true. Because people would be shocked. They're all intimidated when you, you know, you see James Martin, James Bernard. But when you reach out and talk to them, you know, then you start getting a relationship. You start, you know, this whole other camaraderie, you know, happens where everybody's trying to help each other and that intimidation that you once felt from somebody being online is gone. And then all of a sudden someone who's trying to help you grow, you know, And I mean James, I mean we support James Bernard in so many ways. He supports us back and there's just nothing but love, like from that. Same with James Martin. Right. Like so it's just nothing but respect versus being shut down. You know, if somebody tries to reach out or having this sense of entitlement that you are a better designer because you have a 30 person shop or you work with, you know, different breath. I don't know, I don't know who that serves. It's a very self serving, isn't it?

[Kyle Tillman]

There's elements of that, but like that's definitely something that we don't subscribe to.

[Host]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah. I suppose we're quite humble in that aspect. And maybe that is because where we are and where we're from and, and.

[Host]

That we have a quality that'll keep you guys going for a very long time. So hold on to that. No matter how big with the brains you have, with the work that you're cranking out, good for you for keeping this.

[Jordan]

That, damn, it's awesome, man.

[Host]

I know. And it's good that you're not like, you know, all pretentious about it, like, yeah, we rock.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah. I mean it's still like we still get massive imposter syndrome for just.

[Paul Balf]

Oh, massively.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

Who doesn't?

[Kyle Tillman]

What we do.

[Host]

It's true.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah. And I think that's. Honestly, if you don't, you, you're not human. Or you, or you have, you're a sociopath or something.

[Host]

I don't know, you're, or you're in denial. Honestly, I think, I think if somebody says no, I don't get imposter syndrome, I'm so confident. It's just like, dude, you're rud. Reek of it. You know, you're trying to overcompensate at this point because there's always something you don't know. You might be confident in one aspect of your business, your life, you know, so you may not experience it in one small facet, but it's only human to feel that way. Right. And I mean again, otherwise you believe that there's nothing left for you to learn. And how shitty, how boring would that be?

[Jordan]

That's, that's terrible. Like I would, I liked learning. Learning is the best part of this job.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, right, Exactly.

[Paul Balf]

I think just one thing I probably wanted to say just on, on the topic of those, like when you're talking about those big global brands, like, I mean it's, it's really humbling for you guys to say that we're, we're doing really good work and I, I really appreciate that. But I guess for anyone that's listening, like we've done, we have done some cool work for some of those brands but then there's also like the flip side of that that people probably don't see is like, you know, getting hit up by one of those brands to turn around a social post in 24 hours or to do a cake topper for one of the drivers because they've got their hundredth race. Like just dumb small jobs like that that come as part of doing the big stuff. So like you're only ever going to see the portfolio worthy work that gets produced and put on the site. You don't see the mundane day to day stuff that you need to keep those relationships going and they're just as important as doing the big work as well. Like if you're absolutely there. So yeah, I know that's really like, I bring a lot of pessimism to the studio with stuff like that and I'm the optimist.

[Host]

Oh, sorry guys.

[Kyle Tillman]

If you went around our studio and asked every single person what their favorite project that they've worked on, it's probably not going to be the big ones. It's going to be, it's true. It's going to be the ones where you have like a connection with the client as well. Where you're able to like, for me, I think it's for when you can just solve a problem and solve it really well and do a really good job and the client just is absolutely in love with it. I think that's. They're my favorite projects. Not. It's not the ones even, not, not even the ones where I get to express myself. It's more when I get to help other people. I think that's their favorite ones.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. Carl made a grown man cry a couple of months ago.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, I did.

[Host]

What?

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, because. So we've gone pretty hard on our, we had to, we had to reel it back in a little bit, but we went really hard on our brand proposal. So we, so we'd sit the client down, we went through, you know, those stylescapes that the, the discovery and just sort of reiterated where we are. And then we just hit him with like a video with like music and graph and motion graphics and, and you know, with their logo and stuff all intertwined and. Yeah, so we played the video and then looked over and he's like got a tear going down his face like crazy. Yeah, so it was.

[Paul Balf]

Wow.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, so that.

[Host]

Well, see that's, that's something worth talking about. Yeah.

[Kyle Tillman]

Wow, that's kind of. That's cool.

[Host]

Shit. See that's. I mean those are the stories though that, you know, you have to tell customers when you're. Well, no, you don't tell customers those stories, but those, those are the ones that leave an impact in turn with the agency that, you know, sometimes it's like the difference is. You're right, it's the projects that make a difference that people don't see, but you see the impact it made whether it's to a business, whether it's to a person's life, you know, whether it's to somebody like who breaks down and finally realizes this is what their brand's all about. You know, it's so normal. And I mean, Paul, I wouldn't even consider it being, you know, a pessimist when it comes to, you know, pragmatist. This, this is, this is the business. Not everything, you know, that pays the bills is going to be award winning work. In fact, you know, I'd, I'd argue to say, you know, it's more of an 80, 20 split that 80% of the work we do is to pay the bills. 20 of those showcase pieces that we, you know, show up.

[Paul Balf]

But.

[Host]

But even with that being said, we are being paid to be creative, whether it's slinging a social post, whether it's quickly doing a T shirt design. You know, sometimes we get the weirdest requests, you know, like, you know, what is it? The. What is that game where they. Oh, the cornhole. The cornhole boards. And it's just so. Yeah. And it's just like, do you want us to design coral boards? Like, all right. Like, you know, and again, it's just. It's the craziest stuff, but, you know, it's all part of what we do. And it is. That's why I think it's like you said, you know, there's no finish line. There's no finish line to this. Right. And I mean, I'll be happy to be doing cornhole boards, you know, till. Till I'm 80 years old. Right? Yeah. It's fantastic.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah.

[Host]

Oh, that's great.

[Paul Balf]

One of those funny things that we. We've noticed is like, yeah, getting to. Getting to do stuff like, this is something that we've always, you know, wanted to do. We've done a couple of speaking events that we've always wanted to do, worked with some, like, you know, names that we've wanted to work with. And yeah, when you realize that you've still got to go to work on Monday morning, and you're like, oh, that's. That's not the end. Like, what. What do we do now? I think that's the thing that.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, it's always like, when you. When you're striving for those moments, it's like, this is. We've made it when we get here. And then we had it majorly with, like, there's a big conference in Brisbane that happens every year, and it's like an international. Lots of lots. Massive crazy speakers there. And we got to speak this year, and that was kind of like a we've made it moment. But then we literally. That was on the Friday that we spoke, and it's like, ah, what now? Yeah, we got to go to work on Monday.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, Yeah, I gotta get on day now.

[Host]

It's time to raise that bar.

[Paul Balf]

Right?

[Host]

Like, it just now keeps moving. It does. It keeps higher and higher, man. Oh, and you guys are so on your way. I'm so. This is so great to even know you guys. And I mean, 10 years in, but you're still, like, in your infancy stage. Honestly, I didn't feel like I had a grasp on this till I was about year 16 or 17, to be honest.

[Paul Balf]

Wow.

[Host]

So. And that was when I actually felt like, okay, now everything seems to make sense. And that those last seven, eight years were. Were the biggest jumps in the business. But it was just. It's just when everything came together, it was, you know, when the brand finally came together, the, you know, the vision was very clear. You know, the attitude, the being fiercely independent. Like, it. I genuinely, you know, know felt all that at about year 16 or 17, so. So you're doing well. Don't worry, because I did not have the kind of clients you did, you know, at year 10. So good on you both, like, seriously. And your partner and your team, of course.

[Jordan]

Yeah. You get a good team there.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Kyle Tillman]

Appreciate it.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. So we got six or seven years till we've got it together. Awesome.

[Host]

Get on it, boys. I'm watching.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, yeah, I'll probably be hitting you up after this just to get some notes on what to do. Yeah, yeah, you're doing fine.

[Jordan]

Yeah, you're doing fine.

[Host]

Hey, you have us as a resource. Whatever you need, I'd be happy to share. It's. It's. It's a great world. Because I remember the hardest part when starting out, you know, and again, this is. This goes back even further, like, than you guys started. Like, we're 26 years now, and when we started, I was doing the same thing. I was trying to approach agencies for help. I was trying to approach agency owners and just other people. And back then, nobody was sharing anything. And it's such a silly, like, just everybody. They wouldn't even mention who their clients were, which is ridiculous.

[Jordan]

You'd steal them.

[Host]

Well, I know they were scared that you'd steal them, and it's just like, well, it takes more than just a name to be able to steal that customer. So it's absurd. But it was just the way everybody thought. So, you know, and maybe. Maybe that that helped. Why? You know, it was in part why it took so long till everything. Because everything I had to learn ourselves. You know, it's just trial and error. But the world is such a fantastic place now for designers. But again, I refuse to hold anything back. If anybody wants to know anything, I'm open book, I share, whatever. And that was the whole premise of this podcast. I want to make sure no designer goes through what I had to go through for this. So it's ridiculous.

[Paul Balf]

I think you guys are doing awesome, and it's even, like, some of the topics you guys cover It's. Some days it's good to just be like, if you're in a funk, I just, like, scroll through and I'm like, oh, there's an episode on what I'm feeling right now. Yeah, yeah, let's go.

[Host]

And then it's just like, so there it comes.

[Paul Balf]

That's what you need. Sometimes you just need that positive reinforcement that, yes, someone else has been there. So.

[Host]

Yeah, absolutely, dude. Yeah. Yeah.

[Kyle Tillman]

It's true.

[Host]

As you know, not breaking any new.

[Kyle Tillman]

Ground, for which I say we're not breaking any new ground. Like, it's all been done before, essentially.

[Host]

What did David Carson say? Design will save the world. Just after rock and roll and drugs. Is that right?

[Kyle Tillman]

Sure.

[Host]

It's amazing. So, all right. You know how we finish this show? We finish every conversation with a guest with a rapid fire round of questions.

[Kyle Tillman]

Ready, boys?

[Host]

So some of these I'm sure you've heard, others you probably haven't, but it'd be fun to hear. So. And. And this one was tricky because there's two of you, so we kind of embraced a little bit of agency. A little bit. But, you know, at the same time, you guys can go battle at it, so. So we'll give you an extra minute here. All right. To answer these questions. Sound good?

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. Should we go one for one or.

[Kyle Tillman]

Sure, you can go first, I'll go second.

[Host]

Okay.

[Jordan]

Okay. There you go.

[Host]

Ready?

[Jordan]

And go.

[Host]

Mac or PC?

[Paul Balf]

Mac.

[Host]

Mac. What gets you more excited? Print or digital?

[Kyle Tillman]

Print.

[Paul Balf]

Digital.

[Host]

Oh, rebrands or websites?

[Kyle Tillman]

Raybrand.

[Paul Balf]

Raybrand.

[Kyle Tillman]

Agreed.

[Host]

Type of music that blares through Pennybridge?

[Kyle Tillman]

Punk rock.

[Paul Balf]

Right.

[Kyle Tillman]

Alternate.

[Host]

That totally helps it, but it's great. Stand up or sit down desks?

[Kyle Tillman]

We got both. Ah, cool. We got ones that move up and down.

[Jordan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What's the deal?

[Kyle Tillman]

Sit most often.

[Jordan]

Yeah, sit most often. Thank you. Yeah, that's me. I'm a sitter.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yes.

[Host]

Best pitch you've ever had.

[Kyle Tillman]

Maybe the one that the guy tried.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah, I think we touched on that one. Right? Yeah. One word that would describe Pennybridge.

[Paul Balf]

Unconventional.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, Unconventional.

[Host]

Unconventional. Good, good. Favorite office collectible.

[Paul Balf]

Oh. Hey, man.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah. My. My castle. Grace, go. Hey, man. From when I was a kid.

[Host]

Oh, my God, that is so perfect.

[Paul Balf]

Oh, that's amazing.

[Jordan]

Oh, that's great.

[Kyle Tillman]

I should go. I'll. I'll go grab it after this.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Paul Balf]

Other than this baseball bat's pretty cool too.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, true that.

[Host]

Wait, what does that say?

[Kyle Tillman]

It says pioneer brand.

[Host]

Oh, my God, that's amazing.

[Jordan]

Very cool.

[Host]

All right.

[Jordan]

To scare clients what's that?

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, yeah, that's when they don't pay the bill.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say.

[Host]

She'd say, pay me, bitch. Favorite superhero.

[Kyle Tillman]

Wolverine.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, Wolverine, I'd say. I'd say.

[Jordan]

Nice.

[Host]

Oh, very cool. Right? Little bit of Hugh Jackman love.

[Jordan]

I get it.

[Kyle Tillman]

I get it. Okay.

[Host]

Favorite design trend right now.

[Paul Balf]

Fuck trends.

[Jordan]

The correct answer. Never.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah.

[Host]

Coffee or tea?

[Kyle Tillman]

Coffee, Coffee, Coffee.

[Host]

Beer or single malt beer?

[Paul Balf]

Oh, beer.

[Jordan]

Beer.

[Host]

Really? Okay, okay.

[Paul Balf]

Beer nights. Beer makes single malt. You need beer to make whiskey.

[Host]

Oh, interesting. Okay, okay. That's a little bit of a side question there. I was just schooled.

[Jordan]

Ooh, yep, yep. Retool that.

[Host]

Puppies or kittens?

[Paul Balf]

Puppies.

[Host]

Pirates or ninjas?

[Kyle Tillman]

Pirate.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. Parts. All right.

[Kyle Tillman]

Wow.

[Host]

Who'd win in a fight? Hugh Jackman or Chris Hemsworth?

[Paul Balf]

Chris Hemsworth.

[Kyle Tillman]

I don't know. He was pretty. Pretty agile. I'll go Hugh, for his old age, he's got wisdom on his side.

[Host]

I agree.

[Kyle Tillman]

Strength.

[Jordan]

Brute strength. There you go.

[Host]

All right, favorite agency. Global.

[Kyle Tillman]

Can I say penny bridge? No.

[Host]

But it wouldn't be very humble.

[Kyle Tillman]

Kyle wouldn't, would it?

[Paul Balf]

I gotta say, too, that, like, I've always looked up to Lincoln, and I also say analog as well.

[Host]

Oh, nice. Okay, good. Lincoln agrees. Pretty damn cool. Dan's got a good thing.

[Kyle Tillman]

I don't actually know how to answer that one.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, there's a lot of. Yeah, there's heaps of cool freelancers that we love too, so.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host]

Well, then. Hey, favorite artist ever.

[Kyle Tillman]

Ooh, I would have to say James Jean. Oh, there a deep cut there. Everyone go Google that guy. James Jean. James Jean.

[Paul Balf]

I'm not sure.

[Host]

Not sure.

[Kyle Tillman]

Or Jeremy Fish.

[Host]

A.

[Kyle Tillman]

Or Jeremy. Jeremy Fish as well.

[Host]

All right, Sarah. For non serious serif.

[Kyle Tillman]

Non serif.

[Paul Balf]

I got a serif.

[Host]

Oh, wow. Favorite fonts right now.

[Kyle Tillman]

Hero kid. Because it's our brand.

[Paul Balf]

Fonta. Funnily enough.

[Kyle Tillman]

Oh, yeah.

[Paul Balf]

It's a nice Google font.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah.

[Host]

So when presenting designs to North American clients, do you have to flip them upside down?

[Kyle Tillman]

Yes.

[Paul Balf]

Flash them the other way.

[Host]

What's the most Aussie thing about you guys, Ozzy?

[Kyle Tillman]

I don't know. We live near the beach.

[Jordan]

Maybe you just are.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, yeah. We surf, I guess.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah. Accent, surf.

[Host]

Nice. Oh, that's pretty.

[Jordan]

Yeah, that's pretty cool.

[Paul Balf]

He had a video wearing a koala suit for crop. That was pretty cool.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, we' have to show you that one.

[Kyle Tillman]

If we. If. If we get out there next year and hopefully speak at another conference, I'll. I'll rehash it. But you guys have to be at the same conference.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah.

[Host]

Okay. Okay, okay. Okay. We'll wear kangaroo suits. On. No bear. Black bear suits. Road tring, mechanical pencil or a micron pen.

[Paul Balf]

I don't even know what they are.

[Kyle Tillman]

What is that? Yeah, I've got. I'll say. Black wing. Black wing Pencil. Black wing pencil.

[Jordan]

Okay. Pencil. There you go.

[Host]

True or false? AI will replace illustrators.

[Kyle Tillman]

False.

[Paul Balf]

No comment.

[Host]

Scary. Sometimes Vegemite, yay or nay?

[Paul Balf]

Yay.

[Jordan]

Yay. Really?

[Host]

Okay. Guilty pleasure.

[Paul Balf]

You're good to go.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah. Vegemite with avocado on top is really.

[Jordan]

Wow. Okay.

[Paul Balf]

All right.

[Host]

So is that your guilty pleasure?

[Paul Balf]

It's a culinary delight.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, it is. Guilty pleasure. Oh, I don't know. Ice cream. Probably.

[Host]

Can'T go wrong with it.

[Kyle Tillman]

Ice cream.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Host]

Okay. Who'd win in a battle of the bands? ACDC or the Wiggles? Oh, yeah, that's a tough one. I know.

[Kyle Tillman]

Wiggles are always regenerating themselves. They've got some.

[Host]

Yeah, I know, right? Scary.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah. I did say before that they would have wisdom, so I'd say acdc.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah. Akadaka's like, they. How are they still going?

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, I know.

[Paul Balf]

That's true.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Paul Balf]

Especially Angus, like, to be his age and still doing what he does on stage, man. Yeah. I have to say, like. Yeah.

[Host]

Anyway, best video game console ever.

[Paul Balf]

Nintendo.

[Kyle Tillman]

SEGA Master System. Oh.

[Host]

Oh, good one, good one, good one.

[Kyle Tillman]

Only because I haven't owned one since.

[Host]

That's the only system Kyle owns.

[Kyle Tillman]

Oh, it's the kid.

[Paul Balf]

Super Nintendo.

[Host]

Last but not least. One thing that always makes you angry.

[Kyle Tillman]

Huh?

[Jordan]

Too chill.

[Kyle Tillman]

I don't like Helvetica.

[Paul Balf]

Oh.

[Host]

Oh, yeah. Oh, no, you didn't say inner.

[Kyle Tillman]

He says. I don't know. I just think it's. It's not that I hate it. I just think it's just overrated. Yeah.

[Jordan]

Overrated.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah.

[Host]

Wow. All right, interesting.

[Kyle Tillman]

I'm not about to say that Arial's better either. That's definitely not.

[Jordan]

Arial is an awesome font, though.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

I'm serious. Yeah, it's pretty good.

[Host]

It's a system font ripped off that I work.

[Jordan]

I work in PowerPoint a lot, and that is the saving grace. I know, I know. Like, everything's ugly in PowerPoint, but there's that one thing that kind of works.

[Host]

So you guys officially, you know, the longest one ever. We're at almost eight minutes, but there's two of you, so if we were to cut that in half, you guys would be below the average. So good on you both.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yes.

[Jordan]

Nicely done.

[Paul Balf]

Sorry about that.

[Host]

That is amazing. Never mind.

[Paul Balf]

So that's what the Mrs. Says to me anyway, as well.

[Jordan]

We all been there. Yeah.

[Host]

Yeah. Dudes, it was great finally catching up. I'm glad we kept this conversation going because we tried for a little while and it was literally before crop to.

[Kyle Tillman]

Try to do before crop. Yeah. I think we were like. And Paul's like, oh, we're going to do the Angry Designers. I'm like, yeah. And then. And then it was like, oh, we also need to prep for crop and also get all this work done. And then, you know, the. The three owners left the two juniors here to fend for themselves for two weeks. So we had a bit to do. Sorry, it was.

[Host]

It was a long list. No.

[Kyle Tillman]

God, no.

[Host]

Are you kidding? I'm just glad we were able to do this and we didn't fall off each other's radars. So that's fantastic.

[Paul Balf]

Ye.

[Host]

I've learned so much. I mean, again, it's great talking to you guys again because it really does bring back all the memories of Hustle and just like, you know, the, the. The. The punk attitude of Fuck it. I'm doing it my way and I'm going to make it work my way. And in all honesty, it works. I mean, because again, as long as it's passion behind what you guys are pursuing, you guys are going to go the long way. I mean, there's no. There's no finish line to this. So good on you both. I think you're doing an awesome job with what you guys.

[Paul Balf]

Thank you. Appreciate.

[Host]

I can't wait. That's the point. Let me go deeper now. Okay, Kyle, that's enough.

[Jordan]

Doesn't take much for me to Cry podcast.

[Host]

So, so, so how.

[Kyle Tillman]

How.

[Host]

How do our listeners find you?

[Paul Balf]

They can find us at pennybridge studio or pennybridge.com, linkedIn, Pennybridge creative websites. Just pennybridge.com. i think that's it. Yeah, I think we got a TikTok.

[Kyle Tillman]

We got a TikTok. I haven't really done much with it.

[Paul Balf]

I think that's just like Kyle and Jordan dancing.

[Host]

Yeah, I was just gonna say it's Kyle doing a lot of, you know.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah.

[Kyle Tillman]

Pointing and what?

[Host]

Wait, probably like a question. Everybody's asking that. I don't even know how I missed this. Where did the name come from? Is there. Is there like a bridge somewhere called Penny Bridge and you're beside it or what happened?

[Paul Balf]

So it's kind of two things coming together. So my family is originally from Ireland, and in the Middle of Ireland, over the Liffey Bridge is a, a walking bridge called the Harpenny Bridge. And then also when I was starting, I was just like having a massive risk when I was. Oh well, when I was a teenager, Pennybridge Pioneers from Millenn Colin was one of my favorite albums of all time.

[Kyle Tillman]

Same.

[Paul Balf]

And I was just listening to it over and over when I first started designing and I was like, oh, that's a cool name. Had two meanings.

[Kyle Tillman]

So.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah.

[Kyle Tillman]

And then when we merged it was like, oh, are we going to change the name? I'm like, I was like, no way. This is Pennybridge is sick name.

[Host]

Yeah, very cool.

[Paul Balf]

The deal was, was when we merged, Kyle got to rebrand it.

[Host]

Ah, okay. So then the next question was, what was the significance behind the mask? Scott?

[Kyle Tillman]

Ah, yeah, that's a good one.

[Paul Balf]

So how long have you got.

[Kyle Tillman]

Anyway?

[Host]

Hold on, let me just pour a drink guys.

[Kyle Tillman]

When we did rebrand, we initially we threw. We didn't use any of our processes that we use for our clients. We just started and then nothing was hit landing. And then we basically like, no, we need to go back. Like we need to figure out our values first. So we figured out our five values, which is chaos to clarity, outcome over output, have fun, nurture growth and stay true. I just. How good was that? I just remembered all of them. I'm proud of you. So that was like, they're our five values. And then Paul basically said, said, man, whenever I see the logo, I just want to have those five values like staring back at me. And yeah, so basically it's like, well, we want that just so that every time we send out a proposal, a quote, a pitch, it's like we're staying true to our values because it's there looking straight back at us.

[Paul Balf]

So I was that typical client that wanted everything in the logo.

[Host]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah.

[Host]

To tell the entire story.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, yeah, no, but we, we just kind of been through a bit of a. There he is. First drawing.

[Kyle Tillman]

So that was the first drawing.

[Host]

Oh, that's beautiful, dude. Wait, wait, go closer. Bring it in closer. Look at that.

[Jordan]

Oh, that's kick ass.

[Host]

That's hype, man. That's awesome.

[Paul Balf]

I love it. So yeah, it was. We had a few red flag clients that I kind of had disregarded the red flags because I was looking at the dollars.

[Host]

We all do it.

[Paul Balf]

Yeah, they ended up being absolute like nightmare projects to get done. So that's kind of. That was the genesis of like, I want something that's going to kind of tell me like, hey, this is red flag. Just don't send the proposal. Just say that either we're too busy or it's not a good fit. So. But in doing the rebrand, it's kind of funny because we only seem to get the people that we want to work with now anyway. So it's kind of been one of those things where I haven't really needed. Needed that. There's been maybe once or twice from referrals or whatever, but other than that, it's been. Yeah, pretty.

[Kyle Tillman]

So. Yeah, that's how we came up with Iggy. So he's. It's an I. It's got a five pointed asterisk in the middle, which is the five values. It's an eye because we're obviously in a visual industry and it's literally staring back at us when we, you know, sending out quotes and stuff. And he's walking forward. So he's like, obviously he's always moving forward, which is what we strive to do.

[Host]

Yeah. So you're gonna animate him now in some mushroom graphics, like give him a surfboard, put him on a bike. I mean, he's gonna bring him to life.

[Kyle Tillman]

He walks at the moment.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Host]

All right.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah. But we might have to. Yeah, we've turned him into flames. We've got, like a bubble version of it. Yeah, he's got a few little alterations.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very cool.

[Kyle Tillman]

Awesome.

[Paul Balf]

Is that one part.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, yeah, he's on Paul's butt. That's where he got the tattoo.

[Host]

Don't want to see that, but thanks.

[Jordan]

Yeah, trust you on that one.

[Paul Balf]

Thank you, Mr. Cupcake.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yes, thank you, Mr. Cupcake. So. Yeah. So that's how Iggy happened. Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

Amazing, Iggy. Awesome.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Host]

Dudes, it was so great to connect. Honestly, I can't wait to meet you guys in person. Have that pint like we should, and continue this conversation about, like, Passion Design Agency and. And just shitty customers, which we'll do offline.

[Kyle Tillman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's where the angry part comes in.

[Host]

That's where the angry part comes in. And we didn't do that today because you guys just do chill. Thank you again.

[Jordan]

Thank you so much.

[Host]

That being said, don't hang up. However, my name is Massimo.

[Jordan]

My name is Sean.

[Host]

And you guys are Kyle and Paul from Penny Bridge from Stay creative and stay angry.

[E]

I want to be the greatest everybody on their face. I look around, I feel like everybody is the fakers. I make this every day and I'm impress patient hoping one day I blow up from the basement statement? The top is so vacant? I don't hear that? I think is amazing? Waiting for my day? When I'm playing sold out shows? Where a thousand faces? Hey, give me that crown? Get in my way? You to be put down? It ain't your place? I'll dis my town? If I want that, then I'll get it? Right now I'm losing it? The noose and fit? Some loose and a stupid myth? You choose to live or choose to dip? You choose to fight? Or lose your grip and lose a gift? Oh, I feel like I'm losing in my mind?

[Paul Balf]

Everybody in the world die? Please, Lord, give me a sign? A significant.