Graphic Designers Think This Is Enough. Clients Disagree. Why Design School Never Taught This

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Angry Designer – "Graphic Designers Think This Is Enough. Clients Disagree. Why Design School Never Taught This"

Date: January 20, 2026
Hosts: A & B
Theme: The gap between what design schools teach and what clients actually expect from professional graphic designers.

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the fundamental disconnect between the skills graphic designers develop in school and the real-world expectations of clients. The hosts share personal stories, challenge traditional educational models, and identify six key skills that design school often neglects—but that clients desperately want. The discussion is frank, sometimes funny, and packed with actionable advice for designers at any stage.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The School vs. Client Reality Gap

• Design schools focus on craft: fundamentals, grids, history, and honing creative abilities.
• Clients expect far more: design principles are just "the baseline" — not the whole job.
• Host A recounts his disillusionment, moving from an advanced high-school design learning environment to a college still focused on outdated manual techniques.

  “I get to college. Okay. And it was like a hard break. Okay. Like my head hit the glass... They were teaching manual setups. They were teaching, you know, ruby lift. Ruby lift. Weird stuff.“ – A [03:27]

2. Six Essential (and Overlooked) Skills Clients Expect

1. Explaining Your Thinking, Not Just Your Feelings

• Designers must articulate the reasoning behind their design choices—not just say “it feels right.”
• Clients want to understand the logical connection between design decisions and business outcomes.

  “Customers want clear justification on why the hell you are doing what it is that you're doing behind the decisions, the reasons behind it. Yes, absolutely. Right. Because they want to make sure that it's not just because it feels right.” – A [12:02]

• Schools rarely teach designers to verbalize their intent in a way that speaks business or strategy.
• Designer Move: “Stop talking like a creative…start talking more like a decision making leader.” – A [12:52]

2. Defending Your Work Under Pressure

• School critiques are safe and gentle; real client meetings are not.
• Designers need the confidence to stand by their work and answer tough questions without crumbling.

  “Clients expect you to have confidence under pressure.” – A [14:17]

• Backpedaling and apologizing erodes client trust and perceived expertise.
• Memorable moment:

  “As soon as that happens, that's it. You're toast.” – A [15:32]

3. Understanding Client and Human Psychology

• Empathy, behavioral insight, and people skills trump technical skill alone.
• Designers must grasp what motivates both their clients and end-users.
• Criticism of overreliance on simple personas; deeper behavioral understanding is needed.

  “We're not being paid to make something look good. We're being paid to reach out into somebody's soul. Yes. And actually create an action from them.” – A [20:04]

• Lacking these skills leads to overwork and being exploited by tough clients.

4. Making Decisions with Incomplete Information

• In school, designers get perfect briefs and all the time they need.
• Real life means unclear briefs, missing info, and moving targets.

  "Most of the briefs we get are missing so much shit... The goals often change during a project." – A [21:29]

• Senior designers know how to make decisions and move forward despite uncertainty.
• Designer Move: “Progress beats perfection. Every single [time].” – A [23:30]

5. Owning Outcomes—Not Just Deliverables

• Accountability doesn't end at file delivery; you need to see projects through to results.
• Follow up with vendors, check outcomes, care about client success.

  “Handing over that project and walking away saying, my job's done…You give a sht for yourself. You give a sht for the customer. You want to make sure that it actually does what you suspect.” – A [26:39]

• Build lasting trust by “closing the loop.”

6. Framing the Real Problem Before Designing

• Designers are often taught to “do what the client says”—not challenge, clarify, or improve on the brief.
• True expertise is identifying and solving the core issue, not just executing instructions.

  “Clients expect us to see what they don't because we're the experts. ... They really do expect us to be the magic makers and pull everything together from all the sources ourselves because we are the experts.” – A [29:56]

• Framing problems properly builds trust and lasting client relationships.
• There are no perfect, "unicorn" clients; real world work means guiding even difficult clients toward success.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On outdated curriculums:
  "My teachers were just as happy to get down to the pub as we were. ... They would rip through their course, their fundamentals, and they'd be down there belly up at the bar." – B [09:08]
• On AI disrupting fundamentals:
  “I don't know what design tools will look like in the future... AI stuff that's coming out there ... is taking potentially a junior designer and elevating them to a senior designer level.” – A [07:54]
• On caring about results:
  “If the designer doesn't care if what they've created works, the client won't care.” – A [28:04]
• On guiding clients:
  “If you help them identify the real problem, you're the hero again. This is how you get clients for life.“ – A [31:03]

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00-04:59 – Introduction, personal story, frustrations with outdated design education.
• 05:00-08:44 – What schools teach vs. what clients need; the rise of AI.
• 10:11-17:00 – The six critical skills (starts breakdown).
• 18:46-24:00 – Skills 3-5: Psychology, incomplete info, ownership.
• 28:16-34:31 – Skill 6: Framing the real problem; managing client relationships.
• 37:47-38:10 – The value of self-education post-school (“Education starts when schooling is finished.”).
• 39:11-41:10 – Optimism for the new generation; advice to future designers.

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Episode Takeaways

• Design school is just the basics. The real job is far broader, involving psychology, business, strategy, and communication.
• Market reality is changing. AI and automation make soft skills and strategic thinking even more critical for career sustainability.
• Critical thinking, self-education, and adaptability are non-negotiable for long-term success.
• Build trust by caring, following up, and challenging clients positively.
• The perfect client doesn’t exist, but great client relationships are built over time, trust, and guidance.

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Closing Thoughts

The hosts close on a note of optimism: while the industry is tough and changing fast, it’s also deeply rewarding for those who are willing to keep learning and lean into the messy, human side of design.

“Stay creative and stay angry.” – A [41:14]

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Recommended for: Junior designers, design students, and anyone looking to bridge the business gap in creative work. This episode is a rallying cry to move beyond the “pretty pictures” and embrace the full complexity—and reward—of designing for real people and problems.

Transcript

[A]

You clicked on this because what you've learned about design versus what clients are expecting from you just don't seem to match up. I mean, clients are asking you questions that you're just not prepared for. They never give you all the information that you ask for. They push back on virtually everything. Design deadlines keep changing, and yet somehow you're still expected to deliver things on time. Clients want more from you, but what you were taught barely scratches the surface for what they're asking. And that creates a whole new level of pressure and confusion. In this episode of the Angry Designer podcast, powered by Wick Studio, we're talking about the gap that no one warns designers about. Not the pretty stuff, the real stuff, the stuff that school doesn't teach you and nobody online talks about until now. Because the truth is, if clients are expecting these from you and you don't have them yet, it's just a matter of time that you're going to be called out on them or even worse. And that's something you don't want to be unprepared for. Let's go. So yesterday.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, what's going on here?

[A]

Like I said, because I never told you, I disappeared yesterday for like four hours. Right. And I'm doing this graphic design outreach at some of the high schools, right. And I'm actually. Yes, okay, so I'm going to high schools and, and I'm, I'm teaching them, you know, teaching them, but doing presentations, not even just talk, talking to them about. If you're a creative person, there is a career for that. You don't necessarily. Because again, a lot of creatives struggle with this. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, and, and so the experience goes. They're high school kids, right. And they're starting now to think about their future. They're starting to think about what colleges they might go to. Right. And so they always, you know, want to know the story. And I told them my story.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And we all know that I had an interesting college experience. Not even a great one per se, because the relationship was with my Prof. But. Right. But yesterday I think I realized where a lot of this stemmed from, which is how we got to this episode today. Because see, what happened is prior to me going to college, okay, I was already. I took three, four graphic design courses in high school, right? Yes. I was already on a Mac, learning already graphic design on a computer at an early level. Right. So I was already. And I was being taught from a great teacher, cuz she was an ex graphic designer.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yes, she was. Yeah. The teacher Was Right. And she was so motivating and positive. Right. And so I. I learned a lot from there to the point where I actually had a few customers. So before, I know, high school, in high school. And dude, it was such a mind blowing experience because here I am designing logos that now, in retrospect, are horrible. The people were paying me money for this. And granted, it was only 20 bucks. You know, the one logo was 20 bucks. But in high school, that was like, you just gave me 20 bucks for me do it like it was. It was mind blowing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I did a brochure for another. Another business. So I had like three or four little customers that I was just doing stuff with.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So. So I was already, you know, interacting with customers.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. I get to college. Okay. And it was like a hard break. Okay. Like my head hit the glass, you know, almost through the front windshield because I was already on a computer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was. It was at that crossroads, right? Where it's like manual versus, you know, moving over to digital.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because there was. I don't think anybody was still doing it manual, but the college was teaching it manual. They were doing teaching manual setups. They were teaching, you know, ruby lift. Ruby lift. Weird stuff. And it's just like.

[B]

And.

[A]

And so that was my frustration because I'm like, guys like, this is. Nobody's doing this anymore.

[B]

This is old school stuff.

[A]

You're supposed to be teaching me this. Why are you teaching the old way of doing it? And that was where a lot of my frustration came from.

[B]

Right, okay.

[A]

And which ultimately ended up with the Prof. Telling me I'd never make it because of my attitude. And I'm like, you. My attitude. Nobody is actually doing it this way anymore. And you should know better. So they were teaching.

[B]

Anybody should know better. It's the professors you should be. You know what I mean? Like, but a lot times in my case, guys were old.

[A]

Yeah. And they were. Well, they were older for sure.

[B]

These guys, they used Rubylith in. In the old days, so that's why they were teaching it.

[A]

So this is. And this is the ridiculous. So this was a huge part of my frustration, which, you know, of course, I shared with these high school students. And they just love that kind of stuff. Okay. They eat this stuff up. But it made me think how much, you know, they would teach you in college. Okay. Versus, you know, so what you're learning in college versus what is. What is not not only actually, you know, viable in the real world, but experience even more. So what clients Expect in the real world.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Huge disconnect.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. So. And then that's why my head started spinning with this, because, you know, this episode came together really quickly because this all happened yesterday, and I was like, wow, we. We should talk about this kind of stuff. Right. But again, design school. Okay. Oh, and for the record, even if you're not, you know, in design school or you didn't go to design school, you. You'll still get stuff out of this.

[B]

You will.

[A]

So stick through. Stick through. Work with me here. But, I mean, design school teaches you how to design.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Principles of design. You know, grids goes to history. Right. It really hones in on your craft. Okay. That's not to say that, you know, you can't learn that elsewhere.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. Because again, I. I bounced and I learned it myself. Right. You know, my self. Taught myself afterwards, after all these years, and. And I. No regrets. No regrets at all. Right. But the thing is, they're teaching you the craft, but clients are expecting something totally different. Of course.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They're expecting the craft.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. That's just the. That's. That's just your entry point.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. That's like the baseline. You have to at least fucking know that.

[B]

Yes. It's a. It's an iceberg, if you will.

[A]

Right. Like, this is.

[B]

This is at least.

[A]

Right. But there's so much more. And I think that's the frustration for a lot of designers, because what they're not learning from school or what they're not teaching them is what clients actually expect their.

[B]

Right, yes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that's why I wanted to talk today about this, because.

[B]

And I can imagine that would be a real mind for kids coming out of school, dealing with your first client kind of thing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because you're. In my experience, we were never, ever taught that thing, that kind of. That angle of.

[A]

No, not at all. Right.

[B]

And it's graphic design. It's. It's a huge part of the business. It is dealing with a client. So.

[A]

And that was the disconnect because it is about so much more than just, you know, the execution part.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Especially these days. Okay. Because in all fairness, with the way. With the way AI is going, Okay. I don't know what design tools will look like in the future. Okay. But if they're teaching craft and focusing on craft in. In. At an education level, right. In a college university, that craft, you know, has a chance to be simplified, replaced, done automatically. Okay. Like, you can't tell me that I've seen some of The AI stuff that's coming out there and how they're integrating it into apps and it's automatically lining up to grids for you. It's automatically making these recommendations. It's taking potentially a junior designer and elevating them to a senior designer level.

[B]

Just right off the bat.

[A]

Right off the bat, yes. So, wow, now these colleges are going to have to start teaching an entirely different type of course, you know, which is what is missing. And I think that's because, again, they're always telling us, you know, good design wins and focus on good design and then the, you know, good design will always be understood where it's like, you know, it's not necessarily, you know, design's always going to be about grids and principles.

[B]

Yes, right.

[A]

And that's good design. Right.

[B]

But it's exactly like you said. There are apps out there that are helping get you through those fundamental parts. They're all almost baked into this, augmenting.

[A]

All the fundamentals and just getting right to that end crack. So, you know, the reality check here then is then, you know, if these tools are doing this, okay, and, you know, designers, junior designers, people who are graduating from school, you know, might be entering a workplace with new apps that are doing even more of the work for you. Okay. What else do they have to offer? Because there's a giant gap. Yes. Okay.

[B]

That.

[A]

That they're not being taught. And I'm not sure if it's. Because I don't know if the school's just outdated or slow or just they're technologically inept. I don't know.

[B]

I. I think to me, personally, in my experience, yeah, school lags behind five years, you know what I'm saying? Like, I think.

[A]

Do you think they're the last ones to make the change because they're in denial?

[B]

I think they really are because it's curriculum based. Right. So this is what I'm teaching and, and my teachers, this is like 10,000 years ago, so take that into consideration. But my teachers were just as happy to get down to the pub as we were.

[A]

Fair enough.

[B]

So they would rip through their course, their, their fundamentals, and so they. And they'd be down there belly up at the bar kind of thing.

[A]

Yeah, interesting.

[B]

So I think, yes, they really were behind.

[A]

Behind.

[B]

Yeah, I know. And I mean, and I don't know. And what's. What have we done in four years to keep up? God, it's been hard as fuck. How's the school? How's Sheridan? How's George Brown?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Well, I've seen their curriculum and they're. They're not even talking right now. They're still pushing, like, the hard fundamentals. So they're, they're in denial.

[B]

Yeah, they're.

[A]

Fortunately, they're the ones that need to be able to see into the future.

[B]

What a disservice to kids. Exactly.

[A]

Like, exactly.

[B]

So sad.

[A]

So that's, that's why I thought this was an important episode to talk about because.

[B]

Great.

[A]

What, what, what. What I did is then I went through it and I took six skills. Okay. Six things that the schools aren't teaching.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But clients are expecting. Yes, okay, so. Or. Or that schools are teaching very, very, very, very marginally. I'm very thin. Right. Very thin. So that's why I want to explore this. So work with me here. Okay? So like, you know, skill number one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And this one, I've talked to you guys about this before. Right. But, you know, this is explaining your thinking behind a job, not your feeling.

[B]

Or your I feel.

[A]

This was.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You knew this one was coming. Right. But it's true. Right. Like, I mean, what wasn't taught was how to verbalize your. Your decisions and why you made the decisions.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, how to connect the design to the outcome. You know, you. You weren't taught how to actually make that connection and explain the why you did it. Okay. It was all very feelings based.

[B]

Feelings based. Sub A flex too, because it's tested your skills.

[A]

Right, Right, Right. Basically, you know, we have to figure out how to get people to go past the whole it just felt right excuse.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because that's, that's kind of how, you know, college played that game. Not to say that all of them are like this because I did actually do a little bit of research and, and I know some places, like Art center out in la, really, really focuses on the thinking part.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which is impressive. Yeah. But I also checked some of the ones locally. They're not even touching. Okay. They're not even touching it. So what clients are actually expecting from us in this scenario, from any designer, junior, senior. Okay. Is. Is they're expecting clear reasoning behind the decisions that we made in their projects. Okay. Customers want clear justification.

[B]

Right.

[A]

On why the hell you are doing what it is that you're doing behind the decisions, the reasons behind it. Yes, absolutely. Right. Because they want to make sure that it's not just because it feels right. Because again, this, this has to do with, you know, logic, not aesthetics.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Aesthetics is the outcome of what we do. And that whole Craft part that they teach you in school is like that. That layer that you put on top to make everything look great and bring it together.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

There has to be reasons behind why the.

[B]

Why you did.

[A]

Right. The decisions have to make sense way more, you know, past than the aesthetics part. So. So for designers. Okay. Their move on this. Okay. Is ultimately, you just have to stop talking like a creative. Okay. And you have to start talking more like a decision making leader. Okay.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Made these decisions. This is why.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, I've said this before. I have, you know, many friends who were fantastic designers. Okay. I've met so many great designers, but they couldn't verbalize stepping over their own.

[B]

Or tripping over their own feet when they're trying to explain the reasonings behind what they did.

[A]

Right. Okay. And unfortunately, no matter how good the artwork is. Okay. It can't sell itself.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It can look good. Yeah. It could look great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you still have to sell the reason behind it. So. So huge, important skill. Okay. Big time skill number two. Okay. This one's a huge skill. Okay. But defending under pressure.

[B]

Ooh.

[A]

Okay. So again, what school prepares you for, okay. Is. Is a classroom critique. Okay. You go. It's safe. Nobody's gonna, you know, you know, hard.

[B]

Yeah. Nobody's gonna.

[A]

This is no money on the line, Steve.

[B]

Seriously.

[A]

Right? Yeah. Everybody's gentle. Everybody's very positive.

[B]

Yeah. Right. Your friends, you know, and.

[A]

And all the feedback that you're getting in school when you're presenting is from designers.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Or. Or at least aspiring designers. Okay. So this is what school gives you. Okay. End up going on. The teachers, you know, will play customer and. So why did you do this?

[B]

Decision. Yeah.

[A]

But let's face it, okay? They're keeping it very safe.

[B]

Very safe.

[A]

This is not what clients expect. This is not what the real world is like. Okay? Clients expect you to have confidence under pressure. Like, you know, they're asking you. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Sean.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That doesn't make any sense.

[B]

Yes. Why? Yes.

[A]

This.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What are you going to do, break down. Oh, my God. I'm sorry. I didn't realize that.

[B]

And that's. That is blood in the water, basically. The shark will be all over you on that. Yes.

[A]

This. This comes down to. Back to owning those decisions you made and being able to defend them under pressure.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Because let's face it, you know, clients are. They rarely, you know, will accept the first thing you give them.

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay. And a lot of times it sets designers back. It actually kind of gives them a whole Whoa. What just happened there? You know, why didn't they like it? Yes. And again, maybe they didn't like it because you actually were designing for aesthetics. You weren't actually paying attention to. To what the brief was. You weren't actually paying attention to the customer's needs. Okay. And then when they. When they catch you on it. Right. Generally, designers are like, okay, okay, I'll make that change for you.

[B]

It's a backpedaling, and it's a. And it's a very gravelly kind of. Oh, my God. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Which is. Which is the worst thing.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

That is not good.

[A]

As soon as that happens, that's it. You're toast.

[B]

You've lost them.

[A]

You've lost them. You've lost that expert status that we try so hard to maintain and create. So, again, you know, I guess what we have to remember here is, you know, we have to try hard. Harder to explain the decisions that we made.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And not feel like, you know, we're always defending them, you know, and we're always on guard. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. Like, what is. I think James, when we interviewed him, he was like, he's. He's tough on himself. Like, he's asking, why. Why am I putting this in here? Does this need to be in here? Like, this kind of thing is. Because if you're just putting this in there because it looks nice. Because it looks nice and I really like it, then that's. You're going to be your explanation to it, and that's going to fall flat on his face.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

But if you have a reason for it. This is why I did this.

[A]

Well, because you got to be prepared, because the customer will call you out. They will.

[B]

They will. They will want to know you did this.

[A]

So ultimately, the designer move here, okay, to remember, is that if you don't sound confident. Okay. In your responses, when you. Not only when you present, but when you defend or when you have to answer to their objections, their rebuttals, their questioning. Okay.

[B]

And there will be questions.

[A]

100.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They will question you on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then if. If you don't do that, then somebody else will.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Okay. Absolutely. So you sound confident, because if you don't, you're going to lose that.

[B]

Yes. Y.

[A]

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[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Everything we do is supposed to be for the end user. User. Yes. Do you remember learning about psychology? Do you remember learning anything about, you know, other than creating a Persona? You know, like here, let's, let's create a Persona. Put a name on the board. Was it a man or is it a woman or you know, what are their likes, what are their haze, you know, what, what kind of clothes are they weighing, what's the music goes into? Who cares? Nobody gives a about this stuff because they really, I mean UX designers out there like oh, okay, sorry, UX designers. But you know better. Yeah, but the reality is.

[B]

Yeah, you're right.

[A]

There's so much more.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Than just this, this Persona that everybody keeps trying to make.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. Psychology is so important to try to. And it's just, it's not even psychology, but it's try to understanding human behavior.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. Honestly, try navigating, you know, attention situation, you know, without folding. If you can't understand human behavior.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, you just end up being backpedaling, apologizing. And that's the worst thing you can.

[B]

Do in front of a customer. Yeah, exactly. You just fold under that pressure and then the client has you right where they want you, right where they know it. You're working on weekends, you're working for free. You're working for free, for fuck's sakes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't want that shit.

[A]

No. Ultimately, the designer move here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Has to be that this is always about consumers, customers, behavior. It's always about human behavior. Everything we do has to be, you know, has to motivate that end user in one way or another, and we always have to pay attention to that. So we're not paying. Being paid to make something look good. We're being paid to reach out into somebody's soul. Yes. And actually create an action from them. Okay. Whether it's, you know, paying attention to your brand, whether it's to pick up the phone and dial a number or visit a website or check out a feed, you know, we are that. But you can't do that unless you understand human behavior. Exactly. All right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Skill number four. Okay. Making decisions with incomplete information. And I know this sounds. It almost sounds like a joke episode.

[B]

No, but it's.

[A]

It is. Do you remember.

[B]

Do you remember your client, your. Your. Your briefs when you were in high school or in college? Yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Oh, my God. It was like pages of.

[A]

It's. Every possible scenario you need is the clear briefs, you know, the constraints. Nothing is going to go wrong during the process, and you have a whole semester. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Can you do this in a month?

[A]

This is what school does. Okay.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Yes, exactly.

[A]

Right. Where the reality is, most of the briefs we get are missing so much shit and you're, you know, you're constantly going back, asking for this, finding it yourself. Right. The goals often change during a project.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So again, what you start with often isn't what you end with depending on the size and what else you discover in this. Okay. You know, and again. But the thing is, you're doing this with this constant pressure from the customer saying, okay, but we got to keep going.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we can.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I need this information. Okay. We started designing a book the other day. Okay. 100 page book. And we didn't even have the size confirmed. I think this is the size. I'm pretty. I'm like, look, we got to make a call. This is the size. Okay. We should. Should be good. So we ended up getting 50 pages in. On a good note.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes, We. We were right. We got the size right, you know, on the. But at the same time, it's like we had to be prepared that, you know, there could be a change here, but we still had to track on. Right.

[B]

And it's not like, you could go to your Prof. And say, you know, the dog ate my over. Can I have another week? Because you will not get that in the real world.

[A]

The real world is they have a.

[B]

Print deadline and they literally do with this book.

[A]

Exactly. Right?

[B]

They do.

[A]

So it's like, you know, what do we do in this situation? Experience matters big time. Because you think about it, right? Junior designers will wait until they have all the information, and they'll be like, oh, should we move? Shouldn't we move?

[B]

We're paralyzed by it. Analysis by paralysis.

[A]

Right, but designers by analysis. Paralysis by analysis?

[B]

Is that what you're saying?

[A]

Yeah, but the senior designers, people with experience.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They know, boom, you're in. They make those decisions even though. Even though there's gaps everywhere. And they build, you know, to compensate the designer move here. Okay. That designers need to realize, okay. Is progress beats perfection. Every single.

[B]

Hands down. Yeah.

[A]

You guys have to remember that no matter what, you just have to keep moving that thing forward because, again, you can be the best designer in the world, but if you can't deliver for a customer, they're going to stop calling you skill number five. Okay? And this I know, that they're not teaching, okay? So this is owning outcomes, not just the deliverables. And what I mean by this. Hear me out, hear me out, hear me out, okay? What they don't teach you okay, in school is accountability. After you delivered the file, okay, it's basically, job's done, gone. You're not measuring if it does any good. You're not. You're not following up with the vendor to see if it kind of finishes off the job. Okay. You're basically. You're not defending, standing behind what you did to prove the results that it's getting for him.

[B]

You've ghosted your client.

[A]

You just basically handed it over and been like, my job's done.

[B]

I'm out of here.

[A]

Now. What does the client expect?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Client doesn't expect that at all. The client expects you to follow up with the printer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you deliver the file to the printer? Yes. Great. Did it work? Great. It worked. Oh, no, it didn't. They had. They. They're relying on you. The client relies on you to close that loop.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Almost every single time. Okay? So again, you know, people need to realize that there's so many aspects to this job if you want longevity in this job. Okay. But they don't teach you that at school. Right. Because, again, just design doesn't work unless it actually converts, unless it actually solves that problem. Unless you actually close that loop.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

So how do you know if your logo is going to print good? Okay. You printed on your laser printer in the office. It's not a reflection of what it actually looks like at the press. Yeah. Some of my coolest memories in the business was going to the press for press for those runs. Right. Yeah, it was, it was fun to just be in that environment, be there for the press, proof, approve that. Just how cool was that though, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Finishing that job, handing over the file and walking away. Okay. Is basically turning your back on the customers. And customers don't want that. No, they want you to be there. Okay. Hand that job off and close that route. Finish it off. Because they don't know what happens at the print stage. They don't know what happens at the design stage. Today we had somebody who needed something, you know, we sent them the SVG files. You sent those to me.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

Those were perfect for them. Right. Because they needed something digitally that could scale. But they didn't know that it was the vendor that they were dealing with was ask. So if I would have handed them a png.

[B]

Yeah. Or jpeg, it would have looked like.

[A]

Ass once it actually, you know, so again, you know, clients rely on us to close that loop, to go that distance. You finish that off. Okay. And that's for, you know, the easy executable stuff. Okay. What about when it comes to, you know, how did that project perform? How did that add, you know, how did it work? Did it get, you know, did it convert? Did it actually get you leads? Did it suck?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Customers are expecting that kind of attention. They don't want something just handed over and walked away and then you're done with that.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Absolutely not. Yeah.

[B]

And that's the thing. I would, I would want to know if. If something I did was performing properly.

[A]

Because you care.

[B]

Because. Well, yeah, because, you know, because for, for your own learning purposes.

[A]

Fair enough.

[B]

But that's what I mean, it just didn't work.

[A]

You give a. Yeah, well, you give a for yourself. You give a for the customer. You want to make sure that it actually does what you suspect.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's going to do based on everything else that you took into consideration.

[B]

Not to mention the follow up the land and expand model that we always talk about too. Right. Like, like you can go in there and say, hey, you know, what did this perform? Is this everything good? Is there anything else you would like for from me?

[A]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Right again. Because then again, you're building trust.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This way With a customer because they know that I can trust Sean when he's delivering me, when he gives me something, says it's legit. Yeah, I know. Because Sean has actually followed up with the vendor. Sean has asked about the results. Sean has, you know, shown me how it performed on Google. He made a recommendation afterwards that actually improved it that much more. That's trust. That's how trust is built. And that is so important.

[B]

Big time.

[A]

Handing over that project and walking away saying, my job's done.

[B]

I'm done.

[A]

You asked for a social post. I gave you the post.

[B]

I'm not a printer.

[A]

Call me next time you need me. I'm not a printer.

[B]

No. Yes, you are.

[A]

Ultimately, I think the designer takeaway here, okay, is if the designer doesn't care if what they've created works.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The client won't care.

[B]

The client won't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

And that's it. So it's just like, you're replaceable. You're gone.

[B]

Forget it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Obviously this guy is not. Yeah, yeah, you're right. That's true. That's a good point.

[A]

Yeah. All right, I got one more here, guys. Last but not least, okay? Number six, skill. Number sexy. Number six, okay? Framing the real problem before actually designing anything. Okay? So what designers were trained to do. Okay. Or, sorry. What designers were not trained to do in schools or in the world, okay, Was challenge customers, briefs.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Okay? Because everything is great. Okay? They weren't trained to reframe bad questions.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They're just, like, listening. Oh, I listened to everything he said. I wrote everything down. It's like. Like, dude, did you read what you wrote down? It made no freaking sense. Okay? Or. And again, you know, it's tried to identify problems with. Within the brief. Okay. How many times I get this so much that clients give us stuff. Especially nowadays with all the AI slop that's out there. The stuff that we're getting is horrible. It's got holes all over it. It sounds good, but it's just.

[B]

It doesn't work. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

It's just horrible. Okay? But the thing is, they were never taught to challenge this. They were taught that, you know, customer service keeps them happy. Do what they do, make it look good.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, do the craft on top. Right. But the problem is, okay, clients expect us to see what they don't because we're the experts. Okay? We're the ones, you know, they want us to try to. If they send us crap, which often they do, it'll be midnight thoughts, you know, like, you know, quick, quick little, you know, messages and stuff. You know, they're expecting us to, to kind of bring clarity to all the chaos that they're sending us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They really do expect us to be the magic makers and pull everything together from all the sources ourselves because we are the experts. This is the, that they expect us to do, unfortunately, whether people want to admit it or not. Right. And so if we can't identify, identify and dig deep, you know, to identify the real problem and actually provide a solution for the real problem. Okay. What we create isn't going to work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And when it doesn't work, the client points to you and says, you're the one who designed it. You obviously did a shitty job because it didn't work. Exactly.

[B]

Sadly, the buck is going to stop with you.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And the bus is coming over you too. Absolutely.

[A]

But it's true and we know this, okay. Customers don't care if you challenge them obviously nicely. You don't tell them that what they said, you shit.

[B]

Don't be, you can't be an asshole. But, but that goes back to the psychology aspect of it and dealing with people.

[A]

Exactly. And that's what I mean. All of this is just stacked one another. But regardless, okay, the thing is, it's like if you help them identify the real problem.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You're the hero again.

[B]

Right.

[A]

This is how you get clients for life. This is how you get people trusting you. This is because now you, you're understanding the cues, the behavior, they're not going to challeng like this literally all adds up one after the other.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, big time.

[A]

But, but the reality of this person, like you said, it's like the buck stops on you.

[B]

It does, yeah.

[A]

And if you can't identify what the real problem is in a situation, even though that what you're getting is not going to be perfect. Okay. The reality is you're going to be at fault. And yeah, you absolutely have the have, have the choice to be like, I don't want to work with those kind of customers. But I guarantee you your list will get smaller and smaller and smaller because what people have to. Sorry, go ahead.

[B]

No, I was just going to say what you're doing there in that scenario is you're looking for the perfect client.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Do you know if that exists or not?

[A]

Unicorn customer.

[B]

Yeah, the unicorn customer.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You know, the very, very rare.

[A]

Hey, no, no, I think they're non existent. Okay.

[B]

What's funny, I was being optimistic.

[A]

What's funny though is oftentimes you'll Start with the unicorn customer.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Sometimes you'll be like, oh, my God, they're amazing.

[B]

Girlfriend. Yeah.

[A]

They give you everything. But the reality is they're on their best behavior. Yes. They're giving you everything. Nice. Okay. Perfect. As you get more and more comfortable, you start seeing them with their clothes.

[B]

On, their hair's all done.

[A]

There's no makeup on. They're not sending you those perfect briefs anymore. And then as that relationship develops, you realize they're not really a unicorn. Granted, now your relationship is at a different stage. They trust you more. It's actually a great relationship to have.

[B]

It actually is. Good. Good.

[A]

It is. It is. But it is true. It starts off as a unicorn sometimes.

[B]

Wonderful. Yeah. At the beginning. Yeah. This is. That's absolutely true. But. Yeah, back to that original point. Yeah. If you're looking for the. For the perfect client, forget it. You're. You're. You're better served toughing it out with somebody who's a little more difficult.

[A]

So true.

[B]

Oh, you're right.

[A]

Because.

[B]

Because that's good.

[A]

To train people.

[B]

What does that do to you? That only can make you better.

[A]

And some of our. Some of our best, longest relationships here have been exactly that.

[B]

That's exactly.

[A]

I've been training those customers to think you. To work like you, to train them to realize what's important, what's not.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And all of a sudden, they give you expert status. They listen to everything, and they listen.

[B]

To what you're saying.

[A]

Exactly. Exactly.

[B]

If you have a problem with their brief or. Or what they've sent you or what.

[A]

They think is the problem, you can.

[B]

Go back to them and say, look, I don't think this jibes with what you're going. Nine times out of 10, especially with our major client, they'll be like, yeah, you're absolutely right. This is. This is ridiculous. I don't know how this got in front of you.

[A]

You. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. But. But if you're dumb enough to just let it go through.

[B]

But if you dumb enough on it.

[A]

How many times have I stopped the train and been like, whoa, whoa, whoa? And they're like, oh, but. But it was given to us from somebody. And I'm like, sure. And if you deliver this and keep that one person happy, great. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But if somebody else in the company sees that and says, who the hell designed this? Zed Factor? Did they know better? What's going on here? How'd this get through?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And this is what I constantly have to stress to the team. It has nothing to do with that one, one person. This is about the bigger picture for the brand.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So, so ultimately, the takeaway for, for creatives here is don't design anything, don't start building anything, don't start creating anything until you're sure of the problem that it is that you're trying to solve.

[B]

Right, right. And what does that involve? Like research.

[A]

Common sense, behavior, understanding human behavior.

[B]

Right back to the original.

[A]

Understanding the brand, understanding the goals. Yes. Okay. Understanding what they're trying to.

[B]

Right.

[A]

With this.

[B]

So yeah, there's a lot too certain checklist that you're going from.

[A]

Sometimes it's like they'll give you a. Hypothetically speaking, they'll give you a headline for an ad that they want you to build.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The headline makes absolutely no sense. It sounds great.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Doesn't make sense to any target market. Doesn't really say what it's about, but it sounds fun.

[B]

It sounds great. Yeah.

[A]

So it could be. Sounds great for a tech company or an ice cream shop. Well, how is that going to perform? Right.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And that's the thing. So it's just, this is what I mean about the common sense. We are trained to pick up on this kind of stuff. So often times, once, once you start developing the kind of skills that we have after, you know, the, the crazy amount of years and clients and jobs that we've worked on.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You see something, you can call it out. You can call on that horrible tagline.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They're not always going to listen, and I hate to say that. Yeah.

[B]

And they'll fight you tooth and nails sometimes.

[A]

Sometimes. Because they have egos as well. And this goes back to behavior that we talked about.

[B]

You're right, exactly.

[A]

So these, these are, are all really important skills that unfortunately colleges just don't even worry about, don't even think about. They don't train for. And unfortunately, designers are entering the workplace, entering the, the market, the world, learning this stuff on their own.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And unfortunately, you know, I don't think they'll have the same Runway we did. Okay. To learn this kind of stuff.

[B]

Absolutely not. I think, I think once you, you get out of the system of scholastic, you know, secondary school, you're hitting the pavement hard and you're hitting the pavement running. Right. Like you're.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

You. Exactly. Like you said before, you're, you should have, you're a junior level, but you, you should have senior level skills.

[A]

Absolutely. Right. You know what I'm saying? Right. And you need.

[B]

And, and that's what's going to happen. Yeah. Because I Don't know how many juniors are going to survive out there.

[A]

You know, the game has changed and unfortunately, I think, you know, juniors, you know, there was a point where, you know, owning the craft, owning the software, you know, you know, being able to execute.

[B]

Yep, yep.

[A]

Was, was the thing. That was the thing.

[B]

Yeah. You, you could get by with that.

[A]

You could. Right. You could enter and be like, hey, I can be a genius. I can create, you know, stuff. I can make stuff look great. Yeah. Now, yeah. With the way the apps are going, with the way AI is being integrated into everything and how people are using it, like I said, can see in the near future that AI will start correcting things based on design fundamentals, will make better recommendations based on what you're, and will unfortunately enhance what you're doing. Okay. Now granted, you know, for us, we have an idea of already things looking good, so, you know, we'll be at a 90 state. Yeah. Junior will enter, you know, and then again, it's in ramp that up for them. So. Yeah, yeah, it's going to be interesting. It's going to be an interesting market out there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But with that being said, that's why understanding these types of skills are that much more important for people.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. So in all fairness, you know, don't stop at school. Don't. You know, like Paul Rain said, education starts when schooling is finished. And I love that. I love that. And it, it is such a testament because again, I think in school people are just, they just, they're programmed to believe what they hear because it's school. And school is supposed to teach you any better.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

They don't know any better. And you are trusting in a system that is supposed to teach you, you know, what you need to know to get out into the world.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And succeed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The reality is, okay, it doesn't even teach you the bare fundamentals of how to survive out there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it's extremely important for everybody to continue with critical thinking. Okay. Think for yourself. Don't just be a mindless drone listening to profs and what they taught you and what the books are saying. Ok. Learn for yourself. Learn from people in the industry, Reach out, you know, online to some of your fans, some of the people you look up to, how many times we're given advice. I'm loving this. You know, I'm loving and I'm happy to, but I mean, everybody does it equally and everybody's happy to do this.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So. Because, you know, it's not going to get any easier There. No, in some ways it will, but it just means the competition side is going to get harder.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Wow. Crazy.

[B]

This is great.

[A]

So.

[B]

So what was your. What was your theory on the. On the students of. Of tomorrow?

[A]

Wow.

[B]

What was the vibe?

[A]

That's a really good question. There's like a high school. Young. High school. It was high school, you know, and then some of the class. Oh, no. It's really cool.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So the one group were grade nines.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Great kids. They were awesome. They were excitable. They asked good questions. That was more so motivational.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Here's my story.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, this is what you should take from it, you know, and then in the end, they all had to say something they got from your speech. Every single one of them gave great things. What I got from his speech. I was like, almost in tears. I'm like, you guys are killing it. And then the. The later ones. Okay. You know, the great Elevens who are now just one year away from choosing colleges and such, you know, for them, it was more important about understanding what lane that they should be in. Okay. What direction that they should be going. But they don't know that because the sentiment out there is, you know, you don't have to have all the answers. You don't have to know what you want to do. And, and while that is true, and I do believe that it's to your own benefit to at least understand the direction how to get. Well, just. Are you a creative person? Are you into music? Because if you're into music, there's a million ways to make money. Take everything that, you know, if that's what you genuinely should. Are you into sports? Yeah. Are you into watching sports? Betting on sports, you know, performing sports? Right. Then you know what? That's a huge lane. Right. Like Page. Pay attention to the parts that interest you, because then that will guide you closer to. To having a crazy, fulfilling, awesome career. Like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes. Right.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yes. That's a good way to end on this.

[B]

That is a great way to end. You're optimistic for the future.

[A]

I am very optimistic, and I think this generation is, you know, there's no question there's going to be some struggles.

[B]

It's going to be tough for them. And I, I. My heart bleeds for. For anybody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In this kind of situation. But God, you know, the. The takeaway is it. It gets awesome.

[A]

I know, I know. I know. What I mean. It really does.

[B]

It's such a great field.

[A]

It is.

[B]

And I'm so grateful and happy that, yeah, we're in this position.

[A]

You know, I hope you enjoyed this episode. By all means, you know what to do. You know, hit us up, comment, you know, hit us on our email, sign up for a newsletter, have fun, enjoy our podcast and, you know, more than anything, stay creative and stay angry. Peace, Sam. It's.