How Not Being Authentic Is KILLING Your Graphic Design Career

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How Not Being Authentic Is KILLING Your Graphic Design Career"

Podcast Information

• Title: The Angry Designer - Graphic Design, Branding, Marketing, & Creative Business Operations to Get Paid What Your Worth and Avoid Burnout
• Host/Author: A graphic design podcast dedicated to helping frustrated graphic designers overcome industry challenges, charge their worth, and build rewarding creative careers.
• Episode: How Not Being Authentic Is KILLING Your Graphic Design Career
• Release Date: October 22, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of The Angry Designer, host Massimo delves into the critical role of authenticity in the graphic design industry. He challenges the prevalent belief that achieving success inevitably leads to "selling out" or compromising one's values. Through candid discussions with his co-hosts Sean, Ethan, David, and Jessica, Massimo explores how maintaining authenticity can not only preserve but also enhance a designer's career and personal well-being.

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Authenticity vs. Selling Out

Massimo opens the conversation by addressing a common misconception: "Selling out is definitely not being successful. I hate that." (00:00) He emphasizes that increasing rates or attaining success should not be equated with betraying one's artistic integrity. Instead, such growth signifies "getting smarter" and valuing one's work appropriately.

Key Points:

• Success Does Not Equate to Compromise: Increasing your rates or expanding your business does not mean you are selling out; it means you recognize your worth.
• Authenticity Attracts the Right Clients: Staying true to your values helps in attracting clients who resonate with your vision, leading to more meaningful and sustainable relationships.

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Personal Experiences and Challenges

Massimo shares his personal journey of grappling with authenticity within his business operations. He recounts a pivotal moment when his team considered joining a larger podcast network, which promised financial gains but required blanket advertising that felt "inauthentic" to their mission (09:43). This dilemma highlighted the tension between maintaining authenticity and pursuing financial stability.

Quote:

"Ads didn't mean anything to anybody who's listening to this show. And that felt inauthentic to me. That didn't feel like selling out because it was just for money and nothing else." — Massimo (09:43)

This experience led Massimo to redefine their approach to monetization, ensuring that any partnerships or advertisements aligned with their core values. By doing so, they maintained their integrity without compromising their mission.

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The Myth of the Starving Artist

The conversation touches upon the romanticized notion of the "starving artist," which suggests that true creativity often comes at the cost of financial instability. Massimo vehemently opposes this stereotype, asserting that "there’s nothing cool about fucking being hungry and running on an old shitty machine" (07:36). He advocates for a balanced approach where designers can thrive financially without sacrificing their authenticity.

Key Points:

• Rejecting the Starving Artist Myth: Financial success and creative fulfillment are not mutually exclusive.
• Valuing One’s Work: Charging appropriately for services respects both the designer and the client, fostering healthier professional relationships.

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Examples of Authentic Designers

Massimo highlights prominent designers who embody authenticity, such as Aaron Draplin, Jessica Walsh, and James Martin. These individuals have built successful careers by staying true to their unique styles and values, demonstrating that authenticity can lead to both recognition and substantial client work.

Quote:

"Aaron Draplin is big. He's brash. He is exactly that... he's not going to ask Aaron Draplin to look like Jessica Walsh." — Massimo (20:07)

Key Points:

• Distinct Personal Brands: Authentic designers attract clients who appreciate their unique perspectives and styles.
• Consistency Across Platforms: Maintaining authenticity across all marketing channels reinforces personal branding and attracts aligned opportunities.

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Debunking Myths About Authenticity

Massimo addresses several myths that discourage designers from embracing authenticity:

1. Authenticity Doesn’t Lead to Big Clients: Contrarily, authentic designers often secure substantial clients who value their genuine approach.
2. Choosing Between Passion and Profit: It's a false dichotomy; designers can pursue both passion and profit simultaneously.
3. Authentic Designers Can’t Compete with Mass Appeal: Authenticity actually helps designers stand out in a crowded market, making it easier to attract the right clients.

Quote:

"There's a lot of myths out there that kind of stop people from being themselves. Like being authentic doesn't get you big clients." — Massimo (23:07)

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Steps to Embrace Authenticity

Massimo outlines actionable steps for designers to integrate authenticity into their careers:

1. Discover What Makes You Authentic (04:02 - 09:12)

   • Self-Awareness: Reflect on personal values, motivations, and what makes your work meaningful.
   • Define Non-Negotiables: Clearly outline the principles and standards you will not compromise on.

   Quote:

   "You have to discover what actually makes you authentic. And that's really important. This is where you have to be self-aware." — Massimo (27:28)

2. Integrate Authenticity into Your Marketing Presence (27:28 - 31:22)

   • Consistent Branding: Incorporate your values and personality into your website, social media, and marketing materials.
   • Tailored Portfolio: Showcase work that reflects your authentic style and aligns with your desired clientele.

   Quote:

   "You have to put this out there, and you can't be scared to put it out there." — Massimo (30:03)

3. Attract the Right Clients (31:22 - 32:36)

   • Identify Your Audience: Understand who your ideal clients are and where they congregate.
   • Transparent Communication: Clearly communicate your values and what you stand for to attract clients who share similar beliefs.

   Quote:

   "This way, you start creating this consistent image, and you're putting it out there. So now this is separating you from the rest of the vlog." — Massimo (30:03)

4. Learn to Say No (32:36 - 33:46)

   • Protect Your Time and Values: Decline projects that do not align with your core values, freeing up resources to focus on meaningful work.
   • Maintain Professional Boundaries: Establish clear guidelines on what you will and will not accept in your professional engagements.

   Quote:

   "You can't be afraid to say no. And that is key. By learning to say no... you'll free up time to find work that you do want to be doing." — Massimo (32:38)

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Navigating the Balance Between Authenticity and Business

Massimo emphasizes that maintaining authenticity doesn't mean being inflexible. It's about finding a balance where you can adapt without compromising your core values. He shares his experience of needing to work on a Saturday to meet a client's major show, illustrating that sometimes flexibility is necessary for business success without being a betrayal to one's authentic self.

Quote:

"This isn't an all or nothing type deal. This isn't black and white most of the time." — Massimo (34:30)

Key Points:

• Flexibility Without Compromise: Adapt to business needs when necessary, but without sacrificing fundamental values.
• Understanding Business Realities: Recognize that certain exceptions may be required to maintain client relationships and business continuity.

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The Future of Authenticity in Graphic Design

Massimo concludes by asserting that authenticity is not just a trend but a sustainable strategy in the graphic design industry. In an era saturated with AI and automated content, genuine authenticity will distinguish designers and foster lasting client relationships.

Quote:

"The authentic people, the people who aren't scared to be who they are, are going to be the ones that people are going to remember." — Massimo (38:41)

Key Points:

• Enduring Significance: Authenticity enhances longevity in the creative industry.
• Standing Out in a Digital World: Genuine personal brands will outshine mass-produced or automated content, attracting loyal clients.

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Conclusion

This episode of The Angry Designer serves as a compelling reminder that authenticity is not a hindrance but a powerful asset in the graphic design career. Massimo and his co-hosts provide valuable insights and practical steps for designers to embrace their true selves, align with the right clients, and achieve both creative fulfillment and financial success. By debunking common myths and sharing personal experiences, the episode empowers designers to resist the pressure to conform and instead cultivate a career that reflects their unique values and visions.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "Selling out is definitely not being successful. I hate that." — Massimo (00:00)
• "Ads didn't mean anything to anybody who's listening to this show. And that felt inauthentic to me." — Massimo (09:43)
• "There's nothing cool about fucking being hungry and running on an old shitty machine." — Massimo (07:36)
• "Aaron Draplin is big. He's brash. He is exactly that." — Massimo (20:07)
• "Selling out is definitely not being successful. I fucking hate that." — Massimo (11:34)
• "You have to discover what actually makes you authentic. And that's really important." — Massimo (27:28)
• "You can't be afraid to say no. And that is key." — Massimo (32:38)
• "The authentic people, the people who aren't scared to be who they are, are going to be the ones that people are going to remember." — Massimo (38:41)

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of the episode, providing listeners and non-listeners alike with a clear understanding of the discussions, insights, and actionable advice presented by Massimo and his co-hosts.

Transcript

[Massimo]

So let's just get some things straight here, okay? Like, let's be. Selling out is definitely not being successful. I hate that.

[Sean]

Okay?

[Massimo]

Just because you become successful, you become a good graphic designer or a great or you've doubled your rates or tripled, that doesn't mean you're selling out, okay? That means you're getting smarter. You're listening to the Angry Designer podcast where we help frustrated graphic designers crush all the industry BS and learn what it takes to charge what you're worth and build badass, rewarding careers. In this episode, we're challenging the belief that success means selling out, selling your soul, and compromising your values. Let's talk about authenticity in design. You're going to learn about how staying authentic can attract the right clients, not just any client. Why aligning your work with your value leads to sustainable long term growth. And how flexibility doesn't actually mean compromise. It means knowing when to bend without breaking. So buckle up or grab your favorite drink and settle in, because we are about to challenge the idea that authenticity and success can't go hand in hand. Yeah, buddy. Sean, today we are drinking from a gold bar. Check this bad. This. This is probably the most badass fricking bourbon I've ever seen. It's a gold bar. They're numbered.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

It actually has a medallion here of good fortune on the back of this thing. It's like, as a symbol of good, like, and prosperity. An authentically minted lady of Fortune medallion is pressed into the front of each bottle and each bottle is uniquely numbered.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

So this shit is. This is authentic.

[Ethan]

I see what you did.

[Massimo]

You see what I did? You see what I did?

[Ethan]

That's really good.

[Massimo]

So this will be. I've never tried it. Let's hope it tastes as good as it looks. But yeah, like this bad bar.

[Ethan]

Sexy.

[Massimo]

It's called the original Gold bar premium blend. And it's. It's finished in Californian wine casks, so.

[Ethan]

Oh, okay.

[Massimo]

Do the honor, my friends.

[Ethan]

Nice.

[Massimo]

Like, even. The label, like, it looks like a whole and it says even. Okay. The label over top of the cork or whatever it says, may her light reveal your fortune's path. So it's like I'm torn because even though each one of these is unique, it talks about fortune and everything else. There's. There's so much to this that I think really works with today.

[Ethan]

I feel kind of guilty getting my dirty old fingerprints all over it.

[Massimo]

It looks really sexy. That's the problem with this damn bottle. All right, cheers, my friend.

[Ethan]

Let's Give her a sniff.

[Massimo]

Salute.

[Ethan]

Oh, smells scotchy.

[David]

It is.

[Massimo]

Really? Hey, that's. It's definitely.

[Jessica]

I'm.

[Massimo]

I'm thinking. Yeah, okay. I see what you mean. I see what you mean. I'm thinking maybe bourbon. Let's give it a shot. Well, it definitely doesn't taste like. Well, I don't know what that tastes like. Dude. Hold on. I think I need another sip on this one. I'm. I'm. I mean, I'm tasting the vanilla that I like. A little bit of caramel.

[David]

Okay.

[Massimo]

So it's got a really nice flavor, but that instant sip kind of feels like it's like a little, you know, like, jolt in your mouth, Like. Like I'm actually sucking on a gold coin, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I don't know. How else do you des this? Leave it to a creative to describe this exactly.

[Ethan]

You know, it's funny about this. Any kind of new whiskies or scotches or anything, the first sip is always kind of a weird.

[Massimo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ethan]

It takes three or four to get kind of into the groove of what's.

[Massimo]

Going on with this. This definitely feels like. I mean, again, this was in the American whiskey section. So this is somewhere between a whiskey and a bourbon. You know, I. I think this is kind of that. That case that we were talking about earlier that I appreciate. But. Yeah. I don't know. Yet to be determined.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

How much I like this. Okay. I loved everything else. This package. You were to walk into a place. You're walking to a party holding this gold bar. Okay. This is pretty badass. And the price point is actually pretty. It's. It's decent.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

So far. Presentation and overall, I'm. I'm digging this. Let's. Let's work on this flavor.

[Ethan]

It's legit.

[Jessica]

Yes.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Ethan]

Yeah. You would be pretty badass if you were walking into a party with that. Everybody would think you were stealing from Fort Knox or something like that. I got a gold brick.

[Massimo]

Get the gold brick back on the gold standard, baby. Nice. Speaking of gold standard, boy, are we putting in our hours today, dude. So this is a unique never happens moment because this is actually a Saturday, and we've got six of us here at the office working, you know, what could be a 10 to 12 hour day. So this was actually a tricky one, and I always struggled with this because we always tell. I. I mean, I tell everybody, look, you won't work nights. You won't work weekends. But there's always this one exception weekend, which is this one yeah. You know, and it's like, which, which don't get me wrong, still makes me feel guilty, right? Because it's like I'm torn. It's like, it's, it's. Is it staying true to what we're saying? What I promise, what I'm trying to build and, and, you know, like, how much of a hard ass do you say? Because, you know, you can' If I'm. If I say no, then we're difficult. The other. There's so much to this that, you know, like. And it's like people like, well, you're just doing it because of the money. And it's like, well, it's not necessarily just because of the money either.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

Like, it's just. It falls outside of a norm, which doesn't necessarily feel right. But I'm acknowledging that, and I think that's probably the difference.

[Ethan]

You know, the funny thing is I remember coming up and hearing people, friends that I had who worked in agencies and things like that, and they would routinely, like, even the agency we work with, with our, with our major client down in the U.S. yeah, they work constantly. They're always working overtime. And I'm like, so you're really kind of the anomaly the, the, the outlier would actually have, you know, people trying to write and do things on their own.

[Massimo]

Well, because it's important, I think, right? It's, it's important for people to do this. But then, you know, then you wonder, why are you doing it? Are you doing it for the right reason? Because this does actually go against everything that we stand for, right? Which. And again, then it's like, well, am I selling out? Am I doing it just to keep the client happy? What else is he going to do? You know? And then. And like, there's so many different things that I kind of go through with this, right? Because it's like, how do you be authentic to yourself, to your brand, you know, but, you know, not selling out.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

Because, you know, I think I was always cursed because all the cool kids, you know, like, when you were growing up, they were all like the artists, you know, and they were always the starving artists and they were always really cool, right? And it's just like, oh, and they find out, oh, you're going into graphic design, so you're selling out.

[Ethan]

Like, thank you.

[Massimo]

Yes, yes.

[Ethan]

I love this so much. And I also want to get paid for doing it, too.

[Massimo]

But you know what?

[Ethan]

It's, like, wrong with that?

[Massimo]

Well, I mean, again, and it's like, it's, it's like, if you actually do art and you make money for it, you're a fucking seller. Like, there's something that just doesn't sit right with me, and I hate that in order to be cool, right, you have to be a broke graphic designer. Because let me tell you, there's nothing cool about fucking being hungry and running on an old shitty machine and wearing old clothes and can't afford Creative Suite.

[Ethan]

Or the Adobe Suite or anything like that.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Ethan]

Like, you tell.

[Massimo]

Like, it's just, you know, and this is, you know, so honestly, I think that's what I want to talk today about.

[David]

Right?

[Massimo]

Is that, like, you. Just because you want to scale up, you know, your life, your business, your. Your expert, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're selling out.

[Jessica]

Right.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

And. And I think a big part of this is, you know, you have to figure out, you know, what's. What's authentic.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

And. And I struggle with this still, you know? Okay. I understand in our business so much.

[David]

Right?

[Massimo]

But, like, if I remove myself from the business.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

I was struggling with this with the podcast.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

Because with this podcast. So I mentioned it, and I'm sure some people might have remembered me talking about this, but, you know, we had an opportunity to join a network.

[Jessica]

Yes.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

And what that meant is a money.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

We actually would have started making money because we haven't made a fucking penny. Just so everybody knows.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

We are so in the negative here.

[Ethan]

Between our time starving podcasters, as you can tell. But we're cool because of.

[Massimo]

But we're cool.

[Ethan]

Yeah, you're right.

[Massimo]

Starving podcast. No. So we had the opportunity, and it was a cool opportunity. They're like, we love the show. We love your ratings. We love what you guys are standing.

[David]

Right?

[Massimo]

This is how it works. And then we join. We join this bigger network, we start getting ads pumped in, you know, pre rolls, mid rolls. At the end, they start helping us, direct us, grow us. And something just didn't feel right. And I couldn't figure out what it was. Right, okay. And it was.

[Ethan]

And it was, you know, spider sense was tingling, something.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

And it's like they kept on, like, have you signed the contract yet? And one part of me was excited as fucking hell.

[Ethan]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

Because it's a cool opportunity kind of means that somebody's recognizing that, you know, like, on a monetary level. There's. There's something here.

[Jessica]

Yes. Yeah.

[Massimo]

But, you know, again, it was something that wasn't just. It just didn't feel right. And it was in talking with one of Our, one of our producers that, that helped us out on this. It was, it was the fact that it was just blanket ads. Ads that didn't mean anything to us.

[Ethan]

Right.

[Massimo]

Ads didn't, didn't necessarily mean anything to anybody who's listening to this show. And that felt inauthentic to me. That didn't feel. Because, I mean, the whole purpose of why we're doing the show is we want to obviously help graphic designers with their struggles. We want to help graphic designers, you know, level up their game. You know, we want to entertain and educate based on our experience. Right. This whole thing is worked out and it's planned out and we, we have, you know, like a, a format to do, but that doesn't mean we would sell out. And that's what that felt like. That felt like selling out because it was just for money and nothing else. See, and so that's, that was the. And this is what I mean, I'm still struggling with it. Like, you know, take it out of the agency context into the podcast contest. I didn't see that.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

But let me tell you, when I finally saw that, I, it changed everything. Because now it's like, you know, with that being said, it's like, okay, now we do have a plan.

[David]

Okay?

[Massimo]

We, we, we will get sponsors. We will, you know, actually have ads, but just like the products we talk about and the companies we work with, we have to believe in them 100%.

[Sean]

Okay?

[Massimo]

So just heads up, guys. You know, it's coming and again, and we're excited and we've got sponsors, but even with the people that we're talking to and the people that the sponsors that we're interviewing, oddly enough, you know, I made it very clear, we have to approve, we have to believe in what you're doing, you know, and this is not going to be just for a paycheck. So that's where the authenticity kind of came in. So in my opinion, that in no fucking way is selling out.

[Ethan]

No.

[Massimo]

Okay, so now, okay, we might actually get paid for doing this, but we're not selling out. Okay, that's. And that's, that's.

[Ethan]

So first off, okay, doing it on your terms. We're doing it on our terms, kind of basically.

[Massimo]

Right, Absolutely. And we're making sure that our terms are for the right reasons. Yes.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

We're, we're starting to understand what our non negotiables are.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Ethan]

Yes.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

And, and I think, you know, this is something so. Okay.

[David]

What.

[Massimo]

Selling out is not okay or what? Let's, let's just get some things straight here, okay? Like, let's be. Selling out is definitely not being successful. I fucking hate that.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

Just because you become successful, you become a good graphic designer or great or you've doubled your rates or tripled, that doesn't mean you're selling out, okay? That means you're getting fucking smarter, okay. You're figuring out how to charge more for what you do.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

That doesn't mean you lose that whole rebel image that, you know, like you kind of people romanticize when they think of graphic. Graphic designers.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

And it's not like I think selling out is like selling your soul.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

For short term gains. That's what I actually think selling out is.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Doing things that, you know, you don't necessarily agree with.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

Selling your soul for money or an opportunity or some short term gains or some short term fame.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

That to me is selling out because your priorities are mixed up.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

And, you know, so basically you're compromising your core values, your ethics, your. Your creative vision of what you're trying to. We talked about this. You're chasing money over meaningful work. Right. Which is a gray line because at the beginning, of course, we all just chase money because we want to go, go, go. But there comes a point where you, you know, you can start drawing a line and figure that out. You know, selling out is ignoring, you know, what kind of impact the work that you're doing has on other people or even the ethics of the kind of stuff that you're working on.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

You know, and again, or it's like you're downplaying your own personal beliefs just to appeal to a broader audience. You know, like maybe you're, you're so anti meat and, you know, you're a total hardcore vegan, yet you take on a chick fil a, you know, yeah. Maybe you're selling your soul a little bit in a situation like that, not.

[Ethan]

Aligned with your values. That's. That's pretty much sell it out.

[Massimo]

Right?

[Ethan]

Right.

[Massimo]

You know, and basically it's like you're selling your soul for some sort, some shortage, short term, short term.

[Sean]

Okay?

[Massimo]

And, and I genuinely think that that's, that's what I think we always try to prevent from doing. And this comes in all sorts of ways. Okay. And also, and, and it really does have an effect on a designer's journey.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

And it really impacts things long term.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

Like to be authentic is being true to your values, you know, true to your design style.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

Creating some sort of vision and you know, and. And working towards that vision.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

You know, playing to it, constantly reviewing it, jumping on trends and jumping on what's cool or, hey, there's a new little segment here, group I want to join. Even though they're all a bunch of, like, I'm gonna get good exposure, though, Right, Right. And again, it's just. It's just not worth it. So it is important, I think, for a designer to be authentic.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

Because I think that changes the journey that you're gonna have so much. Dude, I can't. I. I can't even talk to this enough.

[Ethan]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Jessica]

Yeah. You're.

[Ethan]

You certainly can't compromise on some things like.

[Massimo]

Well, you shouldn't.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

You start compromising on shit like that, it makes you miserable. It makes you fucking do. You know, I remember when we started this company, and for the first few, again, everything was brand new for me. When we started Zed Factor, I wore suits, okay. I had nice little Italian loafers, right. The Stallions make some good leather shoes. Let me tell you, you know, suits. I, you know, I wouldn't wear a tie. I still kept it casual, right? Because it was still cool. But I'd have, like, the little top in the pocket, you know, And. And I would go to these, you know, customers. I would go to these events. And it was like I was playing this game, okay. And it was. I was genuinely thinking that this is what the world expected, right. You know, they expected me, business owner, to be like this. Growing up in Italian family, you know, this is what my parents always said. Oh, it's a business. You're a business owner.

[Ethan]

You gotta look like a businessman.

[Massimo]

Right? And this was this constant theme that, you know, I was. I was drilled into my head, so I felt I had to do. And I was miserable, Okay. I couldn't keep track of the. I was saying I was selling my soul for dollars. I was taking on work. I. There was. I didn't care. I just. I didn't have a vision. I just give me this, give me that, Whatever came to me, Whatever.

[Jessica]

Yeah. Yeah.

[David]

Dude.

[Massimo]

I never over anybody, Okay. I can genuinely say I never crossed that line. Thank God. But it's just like, I wasn't being true to myself.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

And, you know, the effect that it had on me long term. After about year seven, I think, so we were doing great financially. I was fucking miserable. I was a mess. It wasn't a matter of, you know, we were struggling for work. I was just. I couldn't take it anymore. And I had like a mad burnout And I'm talking. It was bad, right? I'm talking. I fired customers. I fired employees. This was all intentionally. And I tore down the company to two people. Wow. Because I. I just needed somebody else just to kind of, like, help me pay the bills while I sorted shit out. Like, I literally tore everything down to nothing because I was miserable. I was. I can't even tell you how bad this was. And. And it was a huge existential crisis because I. I just. I. I couldn't handle it. And then it was like, one day, I was like, you know what? Fuck it. And I have talked about this before, right? This is when we were in the garage, right? You know, our first garage. And, you know, I went and I took down our stupid, cheesy website. You know, ideas that sell. And I think our mascot was a guy in a suit with a light bulb ahead. And, you know, and I'm just like.

[Ethan]

It was awesome at the time, though.

[David]

Come on.

[Massimo]

But it wasn't me.

[Ethan]

It wasn't you.

[Massimo]

And it was me trying to be something I wasn't, right? And I took all that down, and I created the most absurd, obnoxious, loud website, okay? I had, you know, tractor trailer trucks with, like, our Z Factor Z on the front with flames on it. I had trucker girls hiding inside the letter Z. You know, you would, like, click around this web page and, like, you know, horns would honk. There was a bumper sticker of the day. It was so outrageous.

[Sean]

Okay?

[Massimo]

But it felt right. And I didn't really understand why I had to do this, but I had to do something that felt right.

[Sean]

Okay?

[Massimo]

And sure enough, you know, it launched. And less than a week later, I got a call from somebody. I had no idea. They found our website.

[Ethan]

They.

[Sean]

Oh, okay.

[Massimo]

They found the website. He's like, I wanted to talk to the owner. So I'm like, that's me, right? And then he's like. He's like, yeah, so this is who I am. I just. I just bought a company. I've got a lot of stuff to do. And he goes, and I saw your website. And I was like, ah, here we go.

[David]

Right?

[Massimo]

Like, he's gonna give me a lecture. Offended, because he was. He was actually an English guy, too.

[Ethan]

Oh.

[Massimo]

So it's like, I'm like, o God, I'm being scolded. And he was like. He was like, you know, somebody who could. You know, who has this much creativity, you know, in what they're displaying and how they're displaying it, must be able to help me achieve my Goals. So I want you to come in and let's talk business. And ended up being a customer for, like, 12 years. And that was it. It was. It was this. This whole release of energy that, you know, granted, this outrageous website wasn't obviously going to work for those people that I was trying to appease, but those people that are trying to appease were making me miserable. And it was a miserable. So now what happened is I was like, wow, this guy likes this craziness. He likes the. You know, he. He knows that I'm a little bit more off the cuff.

[David]

I'm a little more bold.

[Massimo]

This. That. Who else wants somebody like me? And I started putting it out there, meeting more people, and more people jumped aboard, and they were like, no, I love this energy. I love this creativity. They love the flames. They love the garage that we were in with a big garage door. And it just. It started attracting all these people. And it was the best thing I could have done because it took. It took me to this level.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Sean]

So.

[Massimo]

So there's my story.

[Jessica]

Yes.

[Ethan]

But.

[Massimo]

Okay. My story. Just because these are a podcast, that's not necessarily fair. But there are other designers out there that are so attractive, authentic.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

And they're killing it.

[Jessica]

Yep.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

Jessica Walsh.

[Jessica]

Yes.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

She's killing it. She's a. She's a quirk.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

Rumor has that she's also very. Not very nice. But, I mean, again, maybe to some people, but to other people that, like, she is who she is. So some people will be like, oh, well, she's a.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

Because that's. She's not for them. She's.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

The people that she's for love her.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Jessica]

Yes.

[Massimo]

Aaron, Drop.

[Ethan]

Aaron Draplin. Yes.

[Massimo]

I don't think there is a unique single person who can be more authentic. Authentic than Aaron Draplin.

[Ethan]

Nope.

[Massimo]

He's big.

[Ethan]

He's brash. He is exactly that.

[Massimo]

I don't even think he combs his hair, Kills his beard. Okay. Like, seriously. And it shows through his work.

[Jessica]

Yep.

[Massimo]

It shows through, you know, his attitude, the way he posts. Okay. And again, in talking to Aaron, same thing. He's not for everybody.

[Jessica]

Yep.

[Massimo]

He doesn't care.

[Ethan]

He doesn't care. No.

[Massimo]

And that's exactly it. He doesn't care. It's not like he goes out of his way to be an to everybody. He is who he is. If some people think that's an, well, so be it. Don't work with him. Yeah, but, I mean, the dude's working with Nike. He's working with Giant. Fucking brands. So, again, there is something to be said about authenticity.

[Jessica]

Yes.

[Massimo]

We have another friend, James Martin.

[Ethan]

James Martin.

[Massimo]

Okay. Again, authentic to. Okay. Now, I'm not saying that our other friends, like, you know, like all of our other designer friends, but these are the ones that. Their personalities are so big, and for them, it's like, they are so authentic.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

That they're just like, this is who I am. Accept it or leave.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

And they have done well for themselves.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

So I think this is. This is where this. This whole idea of, you know, authenticity. It's not that authenticity sells, but it stops you from selling your soul.

[Jessica]

Yes.

[Massimo]

And I think that's key for this. I. I think that's key for longevity in our space.

[Jessica]

Big time.

[Ethan]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Jessica]

Geez.

[Massimo]

That was a rant and a half.

[Ethan]

That was a good one. Yes.

[Massimo]

Take a break there.

[Ethan]

Take a sip of whiskey. Reset her.

[David]

Which.

[Massimo]

The whiskey is actually kind of starting to grow. Kind of digging it. Yeah.

[Ethan]

I'm actually not too. I like it.

[Massimo]

Yeah.

[Ethan]

Like, kind of weird, but it's always questionable. It's all good.

[Massimo]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, Like, I mean, again, it's. It's, you know, I think that there's a line that people need to realize, you know, where. Where it's like, you know, where your authenticity, you know, starts and ends versus selling your soul. Starts and ends. Right. And I genuinely think that if. If designers embrace who they are, their authentic self, and not be scared to put that out there, I think everybody will be happier. They'll be getting happier clients. And again, it's just enjoying your journey.

[Ethan]

That much more, big time. At the very least, you don't have to pretend.

[Jessica]

Oh.

[Ethan]

To tell me somebody you're not. You know what I mean?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Ethan]

How difficult would that be? Like, oh, well, you. You know, obviously.

[Massimo]

Yeah. Right.

[Ethan]

You kind of know what that's all about.

[Massimo]

I do. Yeah.

[Ethan]

It is. It is very difficult. Like, this way. This is my. This is my path. I am going to work this path. And if anything comes along, yes, that suits me. And I could benefit from. And they could benefit from me. It's all good.

[Massimo]

It's. It's scary, right? It's scary because you're always programmed to think, this is the way you have to do this.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

And there is, you know, like. And this is why it's like, you know, starving artist syndrome.

[David]

Right?

[Massimo]

Like, it's like, no, if I really want to, you know, do this, I. I have to do this, and I don't want to be true to my. Myself, and that's why artists are all like st. But I mean, there's a lot of myths out there that are kind of around this that I think is a.

[David]

Bunch of bullshit, right?

[Massimo]

Like, you know, like a big myth, of course, that I think stops people from. From, you know, being themselves is that, you know, being authentic doesn't get you big clients.

[Sean]

Okay?

[Massimo]

But, you know, those three names right there, Jessica Walsh, you know, like Aaron. Okay. Draplin, like James Martin. All huge clients.

[Sean]

Okay?

[Massimo]

Clients that. It's like they're turning away.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

And again, they are extremely out there with their personalities. Yes. You know, another one is you have to choose between passion and profit. Well, that's what I thought I had to do for years, and boy, was I wrong. Okay? Because there is that. There is the opportunity to do both, obviously. It's just. It's scary as hell to take that step.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

You know, another. Another concern is that authentic designers, they can't compete with mass appeal.

[Sean]

Okay?

[Massimo]

People like the draplins of the world. And I'm going to keep using him because I think he's the. The most authentic out there. Example I think that. That we can talk about.

[David]

Right?

[Massimo]

But there are so many other.

[David]

Like James Vittori, right?

[Massimo]

Here's another guy who's like, crazy and out there and he's like. Doesn't hold back in this.

[David]

Right?

[Massimo]

And again, he's not starving for work either.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

But the thing is, you know, the fear is that, you know, like, on a mass appeal, a lot of people won't like these people.

[Jessica]

Yes.

[Sean]

Okay?

[Massimo]

And. And they probably get apprehensive thinking that they're gonna, you know, make their market smaller and smaller and smaller. But the problem just. Just like everybody, how we always talk about niching. Same thing with automatic authenticity. There's a huge world of opportunity out there, okay? And these opportunities are everywhere. Everybody is looking for somebody. And if you look and act like everybody else, okay, you're. That's gonna be harder to find customers. So, you know, sure enough, if I was just another suit guy with a light bulb on my head, okay, it was costing me God knows how much time, energy, money. Right? And again, I had to work twice as hard for the same jobs because you had to figure out a way on how to stand out. So, no, I think, you know, on a mass appeal level, it's easier to stand out if you are genuine to yourself and what you stand for and who you are. Right. You know, often people think that, you know, if. If I'm truly, you know, going to be who I am, I'm going to have the same style and I'm going to get bored with it. But that's kind of bullshit. I mean, that's yourself.

[Ethan]

It's who you are. How would you get bored with that?

[Massimo]

Well, exactly. Right now, while, you know, you might, you know, be known for a style again, Aaron Draplin style is very bold. It's very, you know, like very simple lines and, and it's very distinct.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

But in talking to him, he has all of his other work that. It just doesn't make it on there. It doesn't make. Is it. It's. He still has client tailored work.

[Ethan]

Yes.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

Because you're not saying no to clients because they, they don't suit your style.

[Jessica]

Yes.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

You're saying no for other reasons. For your values, for your non negotiables, not just your style. So you, you can absolutely still explore a world of. You still have to adapt.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Ethan]

That's the thing, that's the key to somebody like him, his adaptability.

[David]

Right, right.

[Ethan]

He still maintains his integrity.

[Massimo]

Absolutely.

[Ethan]

Working for Nike. And Nike knows this and they're not going to ask Aaron Draplin to, to. To look like Jessica Walsh.

[Massimo]

Exactly.

[Jessica]

You know what I mean?

[Ethan]

Like, exactly.

[Massimo]

No, no, no.

[Ethan]

They're not going to do that.

[Massimo]

And I think the big one is people are always scared that authentic designers, if you're truly authentic and truly go out there and be yourself, you're going to be alone. Oh, right. And you work alone.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

And against another kind of thing here because again, in talking to James Martin, he's got a team of people.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

If I'm not mistaken, everybody people do partnered up with our friends over at Lincoln as well. I mean, again, so he's got even a bigger team. So his authenticity self, his authentic nature has actually grown his team. So they being alone is like the farthest thing from the truth. People, if anything, will flock to you because they want to be part of that energy and that magic.

[David]

So.

[Massimo]

So I think a lot of these myths that we put out there, they might be things that we see in movies and that we grow up thinking or maybe people like my, you know, my awesome parents will put on my head.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

You know, about like, you know, you have to do this and you have to be like that. It's the farthest thing from the truth. And I think it's hard for, to kind of separate themselves.

[Jessica]

Yes.

[Massimo]

So what I did do is, is I put together a couple things here about how to actually become authentic and make yourself some Money in the process.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

So it is, it is possible. We've got friends who've done it. I. I had to go through it the hard way. And, you know, I wish somebody would have kind of pulled me aside earlier on and gave me a shot in the head and been like, dude, do it this way.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

So, like, different times, my friend. Right, different times. So. So, you know, honestly, the first, first, most important thing is you have to discover what actually makes you authentic.

[Jessica]

Yes.

[David]

Okay.

[Massimo]

And that's really important. This is where you have to be self. Aware. You have to actually do some hard thinking, you know, and try to figure out what makes life meaningful for you.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

You know, if you only had like, you know, a year to work anymore, and that's it after that. Well, what are the clients you want to work with?

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

What, what is going to be that, that, you know, I'm willing to do this. I'm not willing. Like, you have to define your core values. You have to identify what genuinely motivates you.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

What gets you excited to work.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

And that makes you want to get to work every day. This will prevent that whole daily grind that people burn out for. This prevents people hating their clients, hating their jobs.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

You've got to discover and do some soul searching to figure out, you know, what actually means something to you.

[Jessica]

Yes.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

And in this process, you also got to figure out what your non negotiables are.

[Sean]

Okay. Okay.

[Massimo]

I want to do this, but you know, I'm not going to cross the line and do this. Okay. You got to write down the type of values you want, the kind of companies you want to work with, the kind of industries you want to work with. And you got to realize that there is some non negotiables that you don't want to budge with.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

And then this is where it's like, you have to look at yourself.

[Sean]

Okay?

[Massimo]

So this is why I'm saying a really big important part of this is self awareness.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

And figure this out for yourself, because what happens is all these parts that you start discovering and looking, you know, and kind of writing out your list.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

Is going to help identify the brand that is truly authentic to you.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

And this brand, again, is a huge basis for your personal brand.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

Because that is hot. And I think your personal brand is what's going to carry you throughout your journey. Because if you're just going to end up, you know, being just another fish in the pond, dude, you know, you've got no, you got no chance.

[Jessica]

Exactly.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

For long Term, you're going to have to stay it.

[David]

You're going to hate life.

[Sean]

Okay?

[Ethan]

Have to stand out above the crowd.

[Massimo]

So, number two.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Okay, Once you've done all this soul searching, once you've figured out, you know, what means all this to you, right, you have to now infuse these elements, all these little tidbits, okay, of authenticity into your marketing presence.

[Sean]

Okay?

[Massimo]

You got to put this out there, and you can't be scared to put it out there.

[Sean]

Okay?

[Massimo]

Now, I'm not saying, you know, if you're gonna be a vegan, you're gonna put on, like, a Superman shirt and, you know, like, have a big chicken with an meat out of people's hands. No, you don't have to be that absurd. I'm not saying that. That core value. But the thing is, this is where you have to integrate, you know, your. Your values, your beliefs, yourself, into little parts of your website and your social media and marketing materials. Right? Share your story, share your values. Right? Your personalities. So this. Your personality. So this way, you start creating this consistent image, and you're putting it out there. So now this is separating you from the rest of the vlog, all right? You know, you weren't developing messaging and visuals that showcase this look, this feel, this presence that you want to put out, okay? And again, all platforms like LinkedIn, right? You want to make sure you can mention that you want to make, you know, finally start looking for things that resonate with you, because it really does have a profound impact to how you approach work.

[David]

Okay?

[Massimo]

Once you start understanding this. So basic.

[David]

And.

[Massimo]

And also, you know, with that being said, you also probably want to tailor back your portfolio and put less of what you don't want in there in the short term and more of what you do. So put the kind of work that you want more to the front of your portfolio. Put less of it at the back. And as you taking more on, you start shuffling some of the old ones out.

[Ethan]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

Then number three, you start taking all that energy that you've done, all your clear values, all your marketing, and start focusing on attracting the right clients.

[Sean]

Okay?

[Massimo]

Because now you know what you believe in, what you stand for. You put it on your website, and now it's your job to find where all this lives in the markets. Who are these clients?

[Sean]

Okay?

[David]

Who are they?

[Massimo]

What do they want to hear? What are they like? You want to figure out their Personas, because once you start doing that, you start figuring out where they hang out, what they do. And I don't mean stalking People. But I mean, what networking events are there? Or instead of networking events, are they at fundraisers instead. Instead of fundraisers, do they all hang out at, like, morning creepy, I don't know, like, breakfast sessions? You know, you have to start, you know, figuring out, you know, where these people are that you want to attract.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

And then when you do meet them, you want to be transparent about your beliefs, your values. You know, you want to put a little bit of spin on there, even if it's just a personality spin. So when you meet these people at these events, okay. It's very clear who you are and your differentiating factor.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

So again, trust me, doing this, okay. And putting it out there is like a magnet for attracting the right customers.

[David]

They'll find you.

[Massimo]

You just got to find out where they are.

[Jessica]

Right.

[Massimo]

That sounds kind of weird. That's actually.

[Ethan]

It is stuck.

[Massimo]

You know what I mean?

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

You know what?

[Ethan]

We know what you're talking about.

[Jessica]

Yes.

[Massimo]

And, you know, last but not least, you can't be afraid to say no. And that is key.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

That sounds so crazy when you turn away work. But the thing is, when you're turning away work that you don't want to be doing.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

What you're doing is you're freeing up time to find work that you do want to be doing. You start freeing up time to work on yourself, your work.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

And it will. You might see a lull at the beginning.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

You know, you might be like, holy, I can't believe I just passed on that job. But that. That job is probably going to overwork you, underpay you, and you're just gonna feel defeated doing it. And especially if you do job after job after job, like, it just crushes you, dude.

[David]

Right.

[Ethan]

And that's the thing, too, with the network. You know, you had this. You had the. The smarts to look ahead to that and say, you know what? I know down the road, there's going to be headaches. Yes. And this is kind of something that you're just. Doesn't sit right.

[Massimo]

Yes, absolutely.

[Ethan]

So, I mean, that's. You're going to save yourself a shit ton of problems by learning to say.

[Massimo]

By learning to say no.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

And knowing when to say and knowing when to do. But with that being said, you know, with that being said, though, we're here working on a Saturday, and the whole team is here working on a Saturday.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

And I always said that this is not part of. You know what? I believe in my authentic nature. My authentic nature is work, life, balance, nights, Weekends belong to us to recharge. It's very important. And we're here on a weekend. So I'm not full of shit, right, in saying this. I'm not. Well, no, because you know what the reality is, okay? There has to be, this is still business and there has to be a balance.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

And that is you just have to learn how to navigate that balance. And I think that's where this isn't a all or nothing type deal. This isn't black and white most of the time.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

Of course there's some areas, you know, you need to be. Be clear about your non negotiables.

[Jessica]

Y.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

You, you know, like if you've got this prim dude. I remember early on in our career we were young. You were in about year five, you know, six and whatever. We had some dude who's really, you know, vague and he wanted to come talk to us, he wanted to give us some work, this, that. And well, it turns out the guy had a pornal production studio. And we were young at this time. We were all like late 20s. So we were all sitting there, our mouths were just dropped, I think, I swear, I think he was like, like in shock because we were all probably drooling going, wow, you want us to be doing. No, we turned that work away in the end. It was a non negotiable on a personal front.

[Ethan]

Fair enough, personal.

[Massimo]

But I mean being presented with that opportunity and we were in ages at that time. We're a bunch of young guys. Can you just imagine? He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ethan]

Wow.

[Massimo]

But I mean, again, you know, that crossed some, some, some core principles and values that even though I didn't burn out at that point, I knew still, you know, where that line was.

[Ethan]

There's a line there.

[Massimo]

So, you know, again, it's like, you know, you can stay firm on ethical.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

But again, when it comes to timelines and you know, maybe switch your style if it's appropriate.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

This is still business.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

So that you just have to know where that line is, you know. And again, if, if a client doesn't want, you know, expects you to bend always for everything, well then that's not the right client.

[Ethan]

That's not the right client.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

But you know, at the same time, you know, you have to understand, you have to be able to adapt when it's meaningful.

[Jessica]

Yes.

[Massimo]

And this is that time of year for our customer that it. They need us more than ever. And you know, this weekend, you know, our options were either A go to Vegas, you know, during Thanksgiving. Because our Canadian Thanksgiving is this weekend.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

Or it's like, listen, you know what? The team came together, a whole bunch of people offered to come in today on a Saturday and help us out so we don't have to go to Vegas and miss Thanksgiving.

[Jessica]

Yes.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

And the client was great, but we still have to understand that this is their biggest show of the year. And so this is how we get around it.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

So again, it's still a business. And by being a dick in this situation, it wouldn't have helped our client. Really, it wouldn't have helped that relationship.

[David]

Right.

[Jessica]

Yes.

[Massimo]

Because they need to count on us more than anything. And they know where the line is. And in a situation like this, this, they were respectful and asked and it was us who like, look, instead of us coming down and missing Thanksgiving, do you mind if we do it this way?

[Jessica]

Yes.

[Massimo]

They were fine with it.

[David]

Right.

[Ethan]

You sweeten the pot by saying, instead, it's usually you and I that go down. So would you want two bodies or.

[Massimo]

Six bodies or six bodies remotely?

[Ethan]

And of course everybody's gonna say, yes, I want more people.

[Massimo]

Exactly, Exactly.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Massimo]

So you need to, you do need to know when to make exceptions. And this goes back to the being self aware.

[Sean]

Okay?

[Massimo]

So you've got your hardcore values, your core values, your core non negotiable skills. You don't have to budge on those. I don't care how much money is dangled in front of you. But everything else, please understand, it's a business and you have to give and take and understand last month you have to put yourself in your client's shoes.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

If you seem difficult because, you know, you're so, you're like, absolutely not. I will never use a serif font. You know, forget it. It goes, some people will be that difficult. And it's just like, you know, okay, well, I don't want to work with you.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

And in situations like that, if we were that difficult, this customer would have pushed us away and been like, yeah, we don't want to work with you.

[David]

Right.

[Massimo]

They, they realize what they have and they realize where they can push us. And it's not that they weren't pushing.

[Jessica]

Yep.

[Massimo]

But again, if we're pushing back on them for everything, if we want to win every battle, we're going to lose in the long term. Exactly. So the war. Exactly, Exactly. So I don't think designers need to be scared to be authentic. I think designers need to embrace authenticity. I, I, I feel that is, that is Going to be such a huge, huge thing in the future with all this. AI faking this and faking that and there's so much fake content out there. I think the authentic people, the people who aren't scared to be who they are, are going to be the ones that people are going to remember.

[Jessica]

Yep.

[Massimo]

They're going to rise to the top.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Massimo]

And they're, and people are, they want to work with us. You know, plain and simple. You're not going to always be perfect for everybody.

[Jessica]

Y But you're.

[Massimo]

All you got to do is be perfect to a small group of clients. And those clients will treat you so well. And you are going to look forward to working with them every day.

[Ethan]

That's right.

[Massimo]

That's the most important thing.

[Ethan]

Yes.

[Massimo]

You know, going back to our ads. Listen, I mean again, we didn't, I didn't want to be inauthentic and just sell out for just everybody. I wanted to make sure that if in fact we accept, you know, we accept sp. Partnerships, ads, we're putting stuff out there, it's because we genuinely feel this is for our designers, our angry designers. Best interest is something that you guys can jump on when we tell you our stories. They're authentic, absurd stories. Okay. But again, they're entertaining. And again, we will, we will be true.

[Jessica]

Yes.

[Massimo]

To always educate you guys on our, based on our experiences only and make sure that we give you a great entertaining experience during the process.

[Jessica]

We will do that.

[Massimo]

Those are the three things that we promised that we're going to try to do every single time.

[Ethan]

Yes. And don't worry, it's not, not going to shave our beards for a million dollars or anything like that.

[Massimo]

Can you imagine the clean shaven at this point? I, I don't know what would look.

[Ethan]

I think that would make me make it worse. Yeah, my chin. Jeez. No, no, it's not good, dude. Well, you know, yeah, this is, this is great, man.

[Massimo]

Yeah, I, I, I, I, I. I'm sure I can probably go on and rant about this a little bit longer, but we have, have a lot of that we got to get to tonight. People at the back waiting for us.

[Ethan]

Right.

[Massimo]

So I guess we're going to cut this one short here. But you know, please guys, don't be scared to be who you are. Don't be scared to be, you know, authentic to who you are. Because I do feel that, you know, this is important to your futures, you know, and to your clients futures. And again, you can stay sane this way. So big time hit us up on our site, you know where to find us and you know, check us out on YouTube and you know, if you want to see what this looks like after like a 10 hour day with another six hours ahead of us.

[Ethan]

Yes, exactly.

[Massimo]

And join the conversation on Instagram cuz we love talking to you guys. Yes. Cool.

[Jessica]

Are awesome. Yeah.

[Massimo]

All right everybody. My name is Massimo.

[Ethan]

My name is Sean.

[Massimo]

Stay creative and stay angry and stay authentic. Peace. Please lord, give me a sign?

[Unknown]

I want to be the greatest Everybody on the face? I look around I feel like everybody is the fakers? I make this every day and I'm impatient hoping one day I blow up from the basement statement the top is so vacant I don't hear that I think is amazing? Waiting for my day when I'm playing sold out shows where a thousand faces hey give me that crown? Get in my way you'll be put down? It ain't your place all this my town? If I want that that I'll get it? Right now I'm losing it? The noose it fits some loose a stupid myth? You choose to live or choose to dip? You choose to fight or lose your grip and lose a gift?

[Massimo]

Oh, I feel like I'm losing my mind? Everybody in the world d Please lord give me a sign?

[Jessica]

A sign.