← The Angry Designer Graphic Design, Freelancing, Branding & Creative Business Podcast
The Angry Designer Graphic Design, Freelancing, Branding & Creative Business Podcast
How-To Build a Thriving Graphic Design Business & Community using CropCon's Founder, Matt Dawson's Key Strategies
01:00:33
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- [00:00]
Matt Dawson
Graphic design has become sexy.
- [00:02]
Massimo
Yes, that's for sure.
- [00:04]
Matt Dawson
We talked about it not being sexy 20 years ago, but like it's become a thing to where people can achieve a certain degree of and I hate thinking along this line, but a certain degree of celebrity.
- [00:22]
Massimo
You're listening to the Angry Designer podcast where we help frustrated graphic designers crush the industry Bull. And learn what it takes to charge what you're we worth and build badass rewarding careers. In this episode, we're diving deep into the world of design conferences. With Matt Dawson, the founder of CropCon. You're going to learn all about how to create a conference that feels like home for designers. The balance between running a full time job, having a design business running event, and having a family. And Matt's perspective on the future of design and the importance of creativity in it all. So back and get comfortable. Whether you're chilling with a drink or whether you're navigating a wilderness path or diving into your work, you're not going to want to miss a minute of this episode. What's up, angry designers? So question for you. Where do designers go to hang out with other designers, learn about design, talk to famous people or just bigger groups of like kind people? I think as a designer myself, I like to go to events. And check this out. And we have somebody here who has an awesome event down in Texas every year. We have our guest, Mr. Matt Dawson from Crop Con. What's up, my friend?
- [01:48]
Matt Dawson
Oh, what's up? Thanks so much for having me.
- [01:50]
Massimo
I'm glad we were able to do this just because again, every time I meet you so twice now, and it's always been at conferences and we start getting into these conversations and I'm like, he's such a cool cat. You know what I mean? I think we could have like three or four of these conversations, not just this one.
- [02:06]
Matt Dawson
That's because you've only met me twice like that. That level goes down the more you hang out with me.
- [02:11]
Massimo
Trust me. So just for anybody who's been living under a rock and doesn't know who you are, you have a design firm called Stay Gray Ponyboy. Is that legitimate?
- [02:26]
Matt Dawson
That is correct. You got all the syllables.
- [02:28]
Massimo
And then, and then you also run a design conference, one of the longest running ones, CropCon. Every year you have a lot of time in your plate. So I'm just curious what else you do on this side because, wow, dude. Like, what are you, Are you a glutton for punishment or what?
- [02:45]
Matt Dawson
Yeah, I do. I do kind of. I do kind of. Bill Myself as a glutton for punishment or I don't know, addicted to stress or. I don't know what it is. But yeah. So like I actually, I have a full time job as well and then all of that other stuff is kind of done on the side. So I did run my own thing for about six years and that was amazing. But it also probably took six years off in my life.
- [03:16]
Massimo
Well, let's start actually. So where did this all, where did this journey start you?
- [03:19]
Matt Dawson
Which one?
- [03:20]
Massimo
Well, let's just say were you always a creative person and did you know that you were. I know the answer to that one. But did you always know this is what you were going to do and where did this all start for you?
- [03:30]
Matt Dawson
I do think I've always been a creative person, or at least I think so. I don't know, like, of course I drew pictures and shit whenever I was a kid. But like, what kid doesn't? You know, it's like, I don't know if I can really like lean into like the romantic aspect of it. Like all I did was draw as a kid, you know, like all kids draw. But I did do a lot of that, you know, like I did gravitate towards like more creative toys and endeavors. I never really thought, even going up through high school, I never thought that I would take that path. Graphic designer wasn't as sexy as it is now 20 something years ago. And I don't even know if I knew the term, to be honest with you. I ended up going to school for something entirely different once I got to college. And then after I spent four years in college getting a, almost getting a degree for another major. Then I heard the term graphic design. It's like, oh, let's do another four years of college. So no, long story short, I didn't know that this is what I wanted to do. I'm very glad that I found out at the time.
- [04:41]
Massimo
What was the other course you were taking?
- [04:43]
Matt Dawson
Landscape architecture.
- [04:44]
Sean
Wow.
- [04:47]
Massimo
Yeah. I mean creative, yes, in a different sort of way. But that graphic design, how did that transition look like?
- [04:56]
Matt Dawson
Just poor performance in my latter year of studies for that particular major. So it was a five year major. The school that I went to had a really fantastic landscape architecture program and I had gotten into my fourth year out of five. Yes. And you know, like all the fun stuff was done. You start a creative major and you've got design theory classes and color theory and design history and like all that stuff's fun. And then you get into it and you're like oh wait, there's a lot of math involved here. And I've got to account for the grading of this hill or else, you know, like this, this design is going to sink into the earth or like, you know, something catastrophic. And that was a little too much stress. Like there's not as much stress with logos. You're not dealing with the right customers apparently. Well, yeah, I might want to run that back. But yeah, I found myself kind of gravitating towards the urban planning aspect of landscape architecture and design in that way. And I think what I liked about it was wayfinding and you know, not the important parts of the design. Like I was like focused on like these things that were really like design adjacent. And luckily I had a teacher or professor or whatever, whatever you call it, that could kind of tell, you know, she was like, she was like, hey, like, I don't really think you're feeling this, are you? And I was like, actually, you know what? I'm not. And like, I don't, I'm like a weird person that like, I don't like confrontation, I don't like conflict. I honestly probably would have finished out, you know, like, I think if it wasn't for that conversation. Wow. So I do credit like that honesty and you know, like that professor's kind of, you know, like instinct to be like, hey, like this guy is not feeling this. She had actually double majored in landscape architecture and design and she was like, I think you've got really, you know, like, you know, I think you've got potential to lean into graphic design. It seems like what you're liking about this and it was just like, you know, like a light bulb going off for me. And I switched majors that week. Week. And yeah, haven't looked back.
- [07:19]
Massimo
See, it is, it is possible to have good teachers out there because I had, I had one that did make a difference when I was in high school.
- [07:25]
Sean
Yes.
- [07:25]
Massimo
It just kind of fell apart when I went to college and they were a mess at that point. So there are some inspirational ones. So then after, so then after you went to graphic design and again you said four, five year major.
- [07:36]
Matt Dawson
Yeah, the original landscape architecture program was a five year major. I got into my fourth year and peaced out and then just started over, you know, another four years. I was really lucky though. Like the way that I switched those beginning classes that we talked about a minute ago, all that core stuff that you do at the beginning of college, that all translated over. So I had a ton of credits and honestly all I had to do was just take my design studio classes. So like other. Other granted, like, I ended up becoming the de facto old guy in the class, you know, because I was four years older than everyone else, like 23 years old at that time down to. And I think my hair is like past my shoulders. You know, I look like a real. A real winner. And yeah, you know, like, I was lucky in that, like I just had my design studio classes. Other people were still juggling like their electives and you know, like trigonometry and you know, biology, like all the other stuff you have to do. And I had like six hours per semester max, maybe that I was taking. So I really got to lean into design and tried to immerse myself and absorb as much as I could pre Pinterest, pre dribble, pre Instagram, pre. All these things that we find inspiration and resources for. Now I've still got DVDs.
- [09:03]
Massimo
Do you remember the size of the magazine racks back in the day when there'd be 20 different graphic design magazines? There was print magazine, there was all the skateboard and all the snowboarding magazines. Well, maybe not snowboarding in Texas, but. But I just remember the pre Pinterest, pre online inspiration hitting up the Indigo and the chapters and just kind of spending hours in front of every month in front of everything new that was print to go through to pick up design inspiration.
- [09:32]
Matt Dawson
Yeah, absolutely. Spending time at like a Barnes and Noble and being in their magazine section and thumbing through like a Communication Arts annual or like there's a. I don't know if it's still around. Yeah, but yeah, like print magazine cmyk. Like those were, those were like the source of, you know, like. And I mean, 30 or $40 for a design annual whenever you're a college kid, like that that's expensive, you know, like, that's.
- [10:02]
Massimo
That's why I still own mine.
- [10:03]
Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got rid of them.
- [10:05]
Matt Dawson
So, you know, like, I would. I would just spend like so much time either, you know, like at bookstores or, you know, what not looking at that stuff. And yeah, it was, it was an interesting way to.
- [10:16]
Massimo
I kind of feel like designers now don't like, they're spoiled in the sense of it's all at your fingertips. Right. And not, not in a bad way. It's a hell of a lot more efficient. But there is something missing about that whole seek and discover process that we had to do, you know, like 20 years ago. Right. I still remember before stock photography, going out, you know, for a full day with my camera and Taking pictures of grass and of sidewalk and asphalt and, you know, textures, car tie. Like, I just remember creating my own stock photography because it just wasn't accessible. So it's that, you know, and we talk about the romantic side of business. I miss those days because it was. I kind of feel like that was some of the best times in this space.
- [10:59]
Sean
Totally.
- [11:00]
Matt Dawson
I do too, you know, because like, I think there was, there wasn't as quick of a connect from the process to what you were seeing on those pages. Now we just see everybody's end result and we can see the process, but we've just gotten so fast and almost so overstimulated that I feel like, and I'm guilty of it too, even 15 years in or so that there's some projects that I just want to take the quickest route to being done with, but that doesn't always produce the best results. So I feel like whenever we are overstimulated with, I want to do something like this. I want to do something like this agency or this studio we emulate rather than actually work out a process and discover. And that's brilliant. It's a double edged sword because it's great to have these resources, but at the same time, a lot of design becomes homogenized and just so much shit looks the same now. And like, I miss seeing things that like, made me pick my jaw up off the floor, you know, like, this is incredible. This person's work is phenomenal, you know, like now it's just how fast can we scroll through all of the, all of the things?
- [12:27]
Massimo
And I can't remember the last time I was odd at a new design. You know what I come to think of it? Like, like, exactly to our point, I think, you know, we still have people out there who are passionate about what they do. And we do it because we love the thrill of the process, the design, but because this is still a competitive market and you have other people that, you know, damn right they're just going. There's no process, they're just going straight to an end result. Maybe not a great one, but it's good enough for whatever they're doing and, and I think everybody's trying to keep up. So you're right. There's. There's this whole fear that a lot of the, the best part of what we do is starting to get watered down. It's homogenized. Oh, that's heartbreaking, dude.
- [13:11]
Matt Dawson
Now I'm gonna be the sad, the sad designer. No, but you know, and I don't mean to soapbox about it, like, but I do think it's something that it's important to be aware of. Like, I have to be aware of it in my own work, especially, you know, like, work that I'm giving to clients. I don't want to give them something that looks exactly like 30 other designers accounts on Instagram or TikTok or wherever the hell, because, like, that's not doing that client any favors, you know, like, we, we have, like, we have the ability as designers to just create magic out of thin air, you know, like, we're. We're lucky in that, like, we exist in a creative field. It'd be great to flex that muscle a little bit more, you know, and like, I get it. Like, I see other people that do things. I'm like, I want to try that style, you know, like, same thing, like wanting to learn a cool guitar part or something, you know, like. But do you. Do you want to be like a cover band designer or do you want to be, you know, an original, you know, idea designer? So it's kind of like a weird balance, you know, to what do you.
- [14:22]
Massimo
Feel that that does. To the stress of it all for a designer? Like, how much extra do you think? Like, number one, do you think designers are all as aware, in tune to this as. As we're just talking about and what it does to their. Their whole stress factor?
- [14:36]
Matt Dawson
As a person who is highly stressed, my opinion is probably pretty subjective, but, like, I can only imagine that younger designers probably do feel a lot of stress, you know, especially like whenever they're starting out or they're not getting the kind of projects that they're seeing their contemporaries get, you know, like, maybe not their peers, because these people are at different levels. So, yeah, I mean, like, I can't imag what it's like to be a young designer in this ecosystem and see like, these massive waves of success for people or, you know, sometimes what's just perceived as success, you know. Cause, like, I don't show all the shit that I do just for a paycheck, you know, like that. That stuff stays in Dropbox and, you know, you only show the flashy stuff. So, yeah, I would imagine that that puts quite a bit of stress on younger designers. Yeah.
- [15:24]
Massimo
So speaking about the flashy stuff or the stuff that we keep in our Dropbox, you've worked with some pretty big brands over the years, and obviously you still are, you know, as well as your own gig. So, like, how'd you get to that level right now? And I mean, now you're still working with brands, I'm assuming, plus your own gig. Like what was that big jump for you?
- [15:43]
Matt Dawson
For me it was, it was really drilling down into a niche, you know, like after I was done with school, like I kind of bounced around to different jobs and more so like as like a journey to figure out what I didn't like because like nothing really prepared. Like, you know, like we didn't have like super clear cut paths for like our design curriculum. It was just more like an umbrella. This is what all you can do with this. But like once, once we, you know, got that little piece of paper that's been in a closet forever and haven't seen, you know, like you're just out on your own and you know, like you graduated and great. So it took me a few years and a few different jobs to figure out that like I really wanted to move towards and really focus on like brand and identity. And I think for me like finally clearing that fog and figuring out exactly what I wanted to do just really helped me laser focus in that area. And at the time, you know, I was just creating as much as I could and posting and doing things for free for people and trying to build up stuff to show other clients. And for me it was like more of a snowball effect, you know, like I started getting clients from word of mouth, I started getting a little bit of traction. I've been on Instagram for a long time. I don't have near the, near the amount of followers that some of the other people do. But you know, like I started getting, you know, some, some eyes on things and like that, that led to projects with, with bigger brands and bands and you know, it's, it's really just a testament to keeping at it, I guess. And you know, like it wasn't a short process by any means. That's not to say like it can't happen, you know, like there are people lightning in a bottle and you know, next thing you know, like they're working with big ass brands. But for me it was keeping at it.
- [17:31]
Massimo
Agreed. You know what I think to me when people ask me what is the most important trait a graphic designer can have to make it in the industry? I always say the same thing. It's perseverance, you know, because those, those overnight success stories are far and few. And you know, I attest all the success, you know, everything not over, you know, being a great designer because unfortunately for me that, that took 15, 17, 20 years to get to that point before I was working with billion Dollar brands. But I wasn't, I wasn't going to let anybody else outwork me. So there might have been more talented, but man, I had hustle. So I think people underestimate the importance of perseverance and you know, paying your dues. And for some people it comes after a few years. Others it takes 15, 20, but still, I mean, I wouldn't change it for the world.
- [18:18]
Matt Dawson
Yeah, yeah.
- [18:19]
Massimo
At what point then did you decide while you're working with all these big brands, while you've got your own side gig going, where did this idea about I need to now start a conference?
- [18:30]
Matt Dawson
I think it was really just, you know, to talk, you know, to kind of go back to not having the same resources that we do now because like crops been around for 10 events at this point and I think 10 events ago it was just, for me it was like a lack of available resources for creatives and maybe it was a little short sighted on my part, but I didn't know that other stuff like this kind of existed. They definitely weren't as ubiquitous as they are now. There's a design conference every other fucking month now, which is fine. I think that's great. The more the merrier to an extent. But you know, like, I think, I think for me it was like, you know, like I, I've learned so much in these years from like graduating to now. I did it all on my own. You know, my wife was going to events and you know, she was, she was learning as far as like, you know, like her career. And I was like, well this, let's do something like this with design and creativity and again, other stuff like that existed but I didn't know that. I didn't do my homework. It was never much for homework. And I just started ideating. I was like, how can we provide value and resources and a place where people can come and just learn from people? Because that was also right at the kind of like right at the rise of big designers on social media. So, you know, like I just started connecting dots. I was like, these people could bring people together and I could, you know, kind of be the conduit to make that happen. And yeah, that was really kind of the impetus behind it.
- [20:19]
Massimo
You know, some people would be like, huh, maybe a newsletter. Maybe I'll go a little bigger and do like a webpage. This guy goes straight for the.
- [20:26]
Sean
Right for the conference.
- [20:29]
Massimo
What were the early days of? Because I mean, obviously, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not like you were a, you, you Weren't running events prior to this on a regular basis. I mean, maybe some music gigs, but not like full blown events or what were those early days like?
- [20:44]
Matt Dawson
So like we, you know, we weren't running events. And I say we because my wife and I are the founders of Crop and she's just as instrumental as I am. She's just a lot more behind the scenes. She's the analytical side. The spreadsheets and the budget and the. No, Matt, you can't do this. Which is great because I do need to. I do need to be put in check. But, you know, like, she and I did have some experience with events. I had experience with shows, of course, but we had some event experience from doing stuff throughout college. And the early days were like a lot of field notes filled with ideas, you know, like brainstorming over beers in the backyard and just kind of like putting it together and reaching out to people weird ways, you know, like dming, you know, like these big designers. Because, like our first year was super stacked. We had a hell of a lineup our first year. And yeah, like it was just figure it was like building the ship as we sailed it, basically.
- [21:51]
Massimo
How did you possibly fund all this? Because I mean, again, early days, how do you find sponsors? You know, because again, who's going to sponsor an event that. Or am I just that blind to this?
- [22:01]
Matt Dawson
Well, yeah, I mean, I think any kind of like inaugural event probably comes with a bit of hesitation from people throwing sponsor dollars at it because it hasn't been road tested. You know, like, what's my return of investment? You know, is probably what people ask themselves. It's what they still ask me. I'm like, I don't know, I can't guarantee you're going to get all this stuff, but you can support this thing. And like, that's kind of the way I pitched it, you know, like the first year was predominantly ticket sales and like that, that's kind of continued to be a trend for us because we, we don't attract big sponsorship dollars. I think if we probably had somebody that wasn't me trying to go after that stuff, like we might. And then we'd be able to provide more, you know, just more in general because if you have more money to play with. But like, that's never really been our thing. We've always wanted to be like an accessible place for designers. So like we, we price our tick with that ethos that like, we want it to be affordable. Not everybody can afford, you know, like a $600 ticket to something or a fifteen hundred dollar ticket to something. So, you know, I don't think our tickets have ever broken like the $400 price barrier.
- [23:13]
Sean
Wow, nice.
- [23:14]
Matt Dawson
And like that's, that's by design because we want a younger designer to be able to come. We, you know, like somebody maybe just getting into freelance or just people that have limited resources. And while I love being able to do that, it does make it intense on the back end because we still fund our events through ticket sales. Like, that's why like it's important for us to have every seat sold. Not so we can say we sold out, just so we can pay for everything. So we can pay for the vin for the venue and the flights and the hotels and all this stuff. You know, we have had some sponsors that consistently support and we're always super, super grateful for that. But like we've, we've never cracked, you know, like, you know, having to have more wall space to put more sponsors on there. You know, we just haven't gotten there. But I'm very thankful for, you know, the folks that we do have that believe in what we're doing have been pretty evergreen throughout the history.
- [24:11]
Massimo
So how is it, how has it evolved over the past 10 years? Because. Or not even the past 10 years longer, because I think there was one year or two during COVID that you guys did not. Is that correct?
- [24:20]
Matt Dawson
So we just celebrated our 10th event this past April and we used to just have one a year be in the spring and then we started doing two a year. So we do one in the spring and one in the fall. So it's actually been just shy of 10 years, but it's been 10 events because we like psychopaths used to do two a year and just doing one is already kind of a beast, but you know, doing a smaller one kind of later on in the year. That helped us maintain interest. Yes, honestly, it helped us connect to different crowds because the second one we would do in like a satellite city. So, you know, we'd, we'd go to, you know, we did one in Portland, San Diego, Austin, which is, you know, where we're headquartered now. Headquartered being just, you know, where we do. But yeah, so yeah, 10 events. And so how's it evolved after this?
- [25:27]
Massimo
Because I mean, again, that's, that's still a long time in our space.
- [25:30]
Matt Dawson
There's only so much you can do in the space, honestly. So for us it's about keeping our lineup fresh, keeping our programming fresh, having different activities outside of conference mode or workshop mode. So, you know, like, we. We've never just, like, I've never wanted to stagnate in design. Like, I don't want to stagnate in the event space. So it's really about trying to get people excited every new event. And we mostly do that through a pretty carefully curated lineup and just very, like, thoughtfully and intentionally, you know, crafted parties and activations outside. You know, we just want to keep people interested. We want people to be getting on the plane the last day and be like, holy shit, like, I can't wait to come back.
- [26:22]
Massimo
Yeah.
- [26:23]
Matt Dawson
You know, so you're not.
- [26:24]
Massimo
So you're not necessarily looking to evolve year after year, but your key to stagnation is to leave such an experience that people talk about it, look forward to it for the experience. Granted, the industry, you're like, you said, it's true. I mean, it's not. It's not like next year robots are going to be doing what we do. You know, it's still. Design is still pretty much the same, just different ways of doing it. But you're creating exactly awesome experiences that people talk about and return to year after year.
- [26:54]
Matt Dawson
Absolutely. I mean, like, that's. That's kind of it. And I think that's probably, like a good benchmark to want to achieve for, like, any event. But I do think. I admit I'm very close to it, obviously, but I do think that there's something very special about Crop in the way that people receive our event. You know, people will come up to us afterwards and just be like, I feel like I've finally found my people. And, you know, like, I feel like I belong here. And I think creating that place of belonging that kind of, like, come as you are. Like, there's never, like, a theme to Crop. There's never an agenda. There's never us telling speakers what we want them to talk about. We just want real, raw, genuine experiences. And I think real people being in the crowd that resonates with them. You know, like, we're not putting a gloss on things at all. Like, and we're very, you know, we are a little rougher around the edges. And that was never by design, but we've leaned into it since we know that people appreciate that. So. Yeah.
- [28:05]
Massimo
Have you. Not to mention any names. We're not naming names here. We do not name names. But have you ever had a guest or a speaker that you kind of regretted bringing because they were a little too high maintenance, a little too designer?
- [28:20]
Matt Dawson
I've had one, I would say one which I. Which I feel like is it's pretty good.
- [28:26]
Sean
If it's only one out of ten. Yeah.
- [28:29]
Matt Dawson
Out of ten events and, you know, like, ten plus speakers per event. It's really not bad. And I don't think this particular person was, you know, I don't think any of it was, like, necessarily, like, intentional or, you know, it was just kind of like, ah, that was a weird. That was a weird interaction or scenario or response to this or that. But no, like, we've been really fortunate in that, like, the people that we do bring in to speak and lead workshops, you know, they hang out and, like, they like it, and they're, you know, they're fans and they don't get ushered back to their hotel afterwards or anything. You know, like, they get off stage and then you might go get a drink at the. You know, at the bar with them, or you're like, you'll see them at the after party or, you know, like, you'll sit down and eat with them. I love that. Accessibility to the talent, you know, like.
- [29:27]
Massimo
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [29:28]
Matt Dawson
You know, I mean, imagine going to a show and being able to, you know, sit down with a guitar player. Like, that's. That's kind of like what this is. It's what this is for designers, you know, like, whenever they get to hang out with, you know, like, one of their heroes that just got off stage, like, that's. That's a cool space to be able to provide.
- [29:44]
Sean
So, one question. Do you have, like, a wish list, like, somebody who you'd love to have that. That has never really kind of panned out or you've begged for or anything like that?
- [29:57]
Matt Dawson
I do, but I can't say who because I'm actively working on it.
- [30:02]
Sean
Okay, okay.
- [30:03]
Massimo
We don't name names. We don't name names.
- [30:05]
Matt Dawson
That's too bad.
- [30:06]
Sean
That's too bad. I can probably guess.
- [30:10]
Massimo
Wait, wait, wait. Who's more difficult than overall landing a new client or landing a good guest for your event?
- [30:17]
Matt Dawson
I think it's far more difficult to land a good client. And no offense of any clients, tune into this.
- [30:25]
Sean
Also, no naming names.
- [30:28]
Matt Dawson
But, yeah, there are people that I want to come and speak. We're pretty intentional about the way we curate our lineup and the variation that we want within the experiences that are being told to our. To our crowd. You know, Like, I do think one thing I learned first year is that it's a creative conference, not a just graphic design conference. And our first year was designer. Designer, designer, designer, Designer. And, like, that was great. But, you know, creativity, the umbrella of it is so broad that, you know, like, we've really kind of started widening that to where, you know, we bring musicians or muralists or, you know, photographers into the mix. And that's kind of something that I want to continue to evolve as well.
- [31:25]
Massimo
So you've got this show, you're constantly growing the show, finding new clients, trying to balance ticket sales with events and this and that. And granted, you have, you know, you have a super superpower, AKA your wife helping you through this, but then you've also got a design business. You also have a full time job. You're growing that side. How are you, how are you handling? Like, how are you juggling handling? And you have a family, so, like there's. It's just, there's a whole bunch of stuff here.
- [31:55]
Sean
And a band too, right?
- [31:58]
Matt Dawson
Yes, yes.
- [32:00]
Massimo
Do you also have a primetime cartoon coming out in the fall?
- [32:03]
Matt Dawson
Like, are there two of you? Yeah, Uh, I wish sometimes. Yeah. The balance aspect of all of that is really difficult at times. Like, I'd like to say I've figured out a secret, but, you know, I don't think there's any one answer for anyone. But for me, it's been being okay to slow down, knowing when to slow down. Whenever I was just full time on my own, it was just go, go, go, pedal to the metal all the time. And that was not sustainable. It was great. I got a lot of experience. I worked on a lot of amazing projects and met a lot of amazing people, but it was making me miss out on so many other aspects of my life. And for what? To have some shit to post on Instagram and get some. Get some adoration from some strangers and maybe miss out on real people and real experiences. And for me, that was a weird, crucial kind of perspective turning point to where I was like, I need to slow down. I want to be more intentional with my time because it's finite. It made sense for me to do something a bit more structured. And it's weird. The paradigm for success as a designer is go out on your own, write a book, speak at a conference, blah, blah, blah. You know, it's this. It's this weird linear path that somehow has been carved and a lot of people fall into, but I don't think it's linear, you know, like I did the agency thing. Go out on your own, do that. And it felt weird to circle back and be like, you know what? I'm going to get a job. Like, it felt like, did I fail? You know, because. Because while everybody else is trying to do this I'm trying to get out of it. So it was kind of, it was a bit of a mind in that like I was like man, like am I, like what am I doing? Like is this the wrong move? And honestly, it's probably the best decision I've ever made. I truly love my, my full time job and the people that I get to work with. And like that's pivoted me into a whole new area of design that I've never, that I've never really explored. So. Old dog, new trick. And what that's allowed for outside of that is for me to be more selective with the freelance projects that I do take on under Stay Gray Pony Boy. So you know, it's not saying yes to everything, it's only saying yes to the things that I really want to do. And that's a huge difference because then you know, like you're not just clocking out of one job and clocking into the other. You know, it can, but yeah, crop has always been done in the, I call it the in betweens. Just happens in between everything. You know, if my wife and I happen to sit down for lunch together, you know, like we will probably have a notebook and we'll probably be, you know, jotting ideas down or you know, like if we go out to a coffee shop or a bar or something, you know, like we have a notebook with us and we're, we're constantly, you know, kind of ideating on things. And of course as we get closer to you know, like it's, it's a bit more involved and you know, like a bit later nights and like getting stuff tidied up and. Yeah, so there's no like set office hours for crops. Like we're gonna have a crop day, you know, like it, it really just happens, you know, like through group texts and notebooks and I should probably 10 events in. I should probably have a more efficient system.
- [35:39]
Massimo
But hey, it's working for you.
- [35:41]
Sean
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
- [35:42]
Matt Dawson
Yeah, it's working. So it's just being more cognizant of my time and how I want to spend it and where I want to allot.
- [35:52]
Massimo
Well, it seems like one thing you've got whether it's through experience or age of doing years of doing this. But you're very self aware of yourself, of what you're going for, your feelings. You're able to pump the brakes if you're starting to feel like you're at that burnout store and you're seeing it So I think that's a huge, huge part of obviously avoiding any of the whole burnout, the stress, the craziness that you're going through. But, you know, your comment about, you know, failure. Is it a failure you were feeling? Like it could have been. Are you feeling by going back? I mean, I think, if anything, you know, that was a huge win for you because again, everybody, like you said, it's. It's. It's not linear. And you're right. Everybody always thinks the, you know, the process is freelance or, you know, job and then freelance and then superstar and book and blah, blah, blah, blah. But, I mean, what people are forgetting is that we are fucking. We are creatives for a living. We are getting paid. So your happiness is above everything else. I know some of those guys, they are stressed as hell. They're not even enjoying it anymore. They've got publicist, they've got a manager. They're basically. They're. They're. They're borderline, you know, fake, you know, which is horrible. And this. And not just our space, but a lot of that space where, you know, you just said you're loving the people you're working with, you're loving the projects, you're learning something new. That's what this is about. Everything else, unfortunately, it's just noise. So good on you, buddy. That's like. I mean, that's the most important thing.
- [37:20]
Matt Dawson
Yeah, I appreciate that and I completely agree.
- [37:23]
Massimo
So you're awesome. So you're a musician, right? Like, I first saw you perform, obviously, you know, this year, and if I'm not mistaken, your band is. Some of them are graphic designers. All of them, or are you just the only one? Because I swear that first song was about graphic design.
- [37:45]
Matt Dawson
Right.
- [37:45]
Sean
Where, you know. Right.
- [37:47]
Matt Dawson
Yeah. You know, I don't know if that's worked its way into the songwriting or not, but you are correct that three out of the four of us are designers. So me, obviously, and then our guitar player, who's been one of my best friends for, like, 20 years, he's also a designer. And then our drummer is a screen printer and a designer. So we keep working on our. On our basis to be like, hey, man, why don't you download Creative Cloud? You know? Yeah, it's like a gateway drug or something.
- [38:28]
Massimo
So how does that play into the overall bigger creative picture?
- [38:32]
Matt Dawson
You know, for me, man, honestly, it's just. It's such a good, different outlet. Playing music. It sounds so cheesy, but, like, playing music for me is really therapeutic in that, like, it lets Me take my mind off of everything else. Nine times out of ten, if you see me and you know, I'm eating dinner or I'm at a grocery store or whatever, my brain is working overtime. Like I'm thinking of all the shit I need to do. Like I'm worrying about this or that. Like I said earlier, like, I'm a bit of a high stress person and music helps de escalate that because whenever we're playing music, it's the only time that like, I'm not thinking about all that other stuff. Like my brain is turned off, you know, like I'm thinking about what's happening in the moment. And it's also kind of like helped me try to, try to take that mindset of being more in the moment and just like apply it to going grocery shopping, you know, like just not being like a, you know, like thinking all the time. And also like, it's just a fun way to create, you know, without pixels. Like, I spend so much time looking at these screens. It's nice to have a different creative outlet.
- [39:52]
Massimo
Yeah, that's actually really cool. Okay, so creative as a trade, as your line of work or being a creative person, which do you feel has more advantage in being a designer?
- [40:09]
Matt Dawson
I think it depends on what your goals are. If you're wanting to be fulfilled creatively. I think that being a creative person is probably better. I think if you're looking for a career and advancement. I think if your goal is successful, you know, like, maybe the, maybe the former is better, but yeah, that's a tough one. I don't think I have like a, like, that's a very diplomatic fence riding answer. I understand.
- [40:37]
Sean
Very liberal of you.
- [40:39]
Matt Dawson
Yeah. But you know, like, I don't, I honestly don't know. You know, I feel like I've, I feel like I've lived both of them and I'm not sure. I think they've kind of intertwined at this point for me, you know, just become mutated, you know, whatever the hell it is now.
- [40:57]
Massimo
Well, let me, let me ask you a part b to this then. Which would you rather pass on to the next generation? Be it your kids, your nieces and nephews, other kids? Would you rather pass on a strong sense of work ethic by being a creative or a strong sense of creativity?
- [41:17]
Matt Dawson
I think there's value in work ethic, but I think there's a lack of creativity these days. I would lean more forward creativity, which goes back to, you know, like we want to be odd again, you know, like, yeah, it Was fun to be that way. Yeah, you're right. I would push for creativity, you know, like, I love discovering and like, every now and then, you know, like, I'll find somebody. It's not usually in the design space. Not to say there's not an amazing amount of talent out there, but I'm inundated with it and just over saturated with design. Design, design. Of course, you know, like, I find more awe in finding a painter or, like a motion artist or, like, somebody that's just doing something really different. And I would love for creativity to be nurtured more and, you know, see if we can get back to dropping jaws.
- [42:08]
Massimo
Why do you think it's. There's been a lack of.
- [42:10]
Matt Dawson
I think, like we said, like, that just over saturation, you know, like, the homogenization of just like, constant design stuff everywhere, all the time, you know, all this design pollution. Well, and it's not bad. Like, I don't mean to be like a dick about it, like, in any way, like, whatsoever. It's just, you know, like, it's kind of like you look at some stuff and you're like, oh, yeah, this looks and feels like this, you know, like, there's just so much of it, you know, like, I have to put my phone down, down a lot of times and just be like, you know what? Like, I set up, like, little iOS, like, time limits, like, okay, like, you've spent this much time and. Yeah, so I just think it's. The graphic design has become sexy. It has. We talked about it not being sexy 20 years ago, but, like, it's become a thing to. Where people can achieve a certain degree of. And I hate thinking along this line, but a certain degree of celebrity with it, you know, So I think people see that as a path to, like, being seen and being known. And, like, there's. There's nothing wrong with that if, like, that's. If that's your goal and, like, that's your ambition, you know. But I think that's why we. We see so much design celebrity these days, because it's just people like being seen. Like, you know, you like being recognized for your work or what you bring, and there's just a lot of that. So I think it's become a very popular career, and I think it's a great career. Like, I don' I don't really believe in gatekeeping. I just want, you know, I just want more creativity in this field, you know, so you.
- [43:48]
Massimo
You, when you came up in this space just similar to us, graphic designer was almost Like a. I don't want to say it was a catch all, because we did it all. We did print, we did Digital, you know, 20, 25 years ago. We did trade show booths, we did experience design, we did UX design and then it became very segmented UXers and then it became, you know, C x ers, you know, people who only worked on user interfaces and then graphic does. Everybody became really siloed. Do you think that that's the way it's going to stay in the future, or do you think it possibly could come back to just being an overall designer?
- [44:24]
Matt Dawson
I think there's that saying, you know, jack of all trades, master of, master of none.
- [44:31]
Sean
Yeah.
- [44:32]
Matt Dawson
And like, that's how I felt for a really long time whenever I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Yes. I could lay out a magazine in indesign. I could also ship signage for a business that's opening. I could do a logo, I could do a very terrible Flash site. But I don't know that I was doing any of them. Well, I don't think it's not to say that there aren't people out there that can do it all and are really good at all of it. I know some people like that, very jealous of that. But I do think there's. I do think there's something about being, you know, like a powerhouse in your silo. You know, I think like a working knowledge of all that other stuff is great. Great tools to have, like in your tool belt. It's tough to get really good at one thing if you're trying to, you know, grasp everything, do everything.
- [45:24]
Massimo
Very cool.
- [45:25]
Matt Dawson
Yeah, very cool.
- [45:26]
Massimo
What do you think the future of design is going to be or our industry?
- [45:29]
Matt Dawson
I think digital experiences are probably the way of the future. They're pretty much predominantly what we experience now. We live so much on our phones, we live so much on our computers, our tablets. I was just reading that. I can't remember the statistic, but a very large percentage of logos will never be printed. They'll just exist. Yeah. So, you know.
- [45:59]
Massimo
Whoa.
- [45:59]
Sean
I read that article too.
- [46:01]
Matt Dawson
That's interesting. Yes, it is wild. Like, I don't know, I don't know if it was Logo Lounge or what. It was something recent and I was just kind of like gobsmacked by that number. I was like, yeah, you're right. You know, like. Which is kind of great because then I don't have to write a bunch of brand standards for print stuff that'll never get printed. But yeah, I think leaning into the digital world is kind of like where I see most of my future in design. I do do a lot of UX and UI now and applying brand there and how to push the envelope to make those experiences not so run of the mill. How can digital experiences stand out? Because we all know websites that we like. It's like, ooh, this is nice, or apps that we like. We're spending more and more time on these devices, and I think that's where a lot of focus is going and shifting.
- [46:57]
Massimo
Yeah. Okay. The nice thing about what you said is, you know, your future is in digital design. How long of a future in design do you plan to have, Matt?
- [47:04]
Matt Dawson
I don't know. As long as. As long as the design world will have me. As long as. As long as I don't, you know, get replaced by any young hotshot AI models. You thought I was gonna say designers, huh? No. Yeah, yeah.
- [47:21]
Massimo
He said the word. He said they were. Well, what about. What about crop? Like, I mean, obviously, there's still a future for crop.
- [47:28]
Matt Dawson
No, I think there's still a future for crop. I have periods of burnout with crop and being a designer, but they ebb and flow, and I think everybody has that in their jobs. I'm very fortunate to still like being a designer, and I think the future of it for me is that perseverance. Like, I'm not ready to stop anytime soon. I'm also not financially able to. Yeah. If that were part of the equation, then who knows? Yeah, but, yeah, no, like, I'm. I'm always excited to just keep learning stuff. You know, honestly, learning. Learning new stuff is rad. Keeps. Keeps you interested, keeps it fresh. And. Yeah, the future of Crop is, you know, like, I just want to keep providing good experiences for people and, you know, like, providing that playground and, you know, resource. It's getting tougher and tougher to, like, build out the lineups, you know, like. Like, sometimes you just. You want so much. So, yeah, I've just got to learn to. I don't know, learn. Learn to make sure it stays true to its roots and its brand. Yeah.
- [48:38]
Massimo
So if there's one piece of advice that you could give your younger self. Your younger self, Matt, 20 years ago, what would it. What would it be?
- [48:48]
Matt Dawson
Invest in Bitcoin.
- [48:52]
Sean
Yes. Twist.
- [48:56]
Massimo
He's gone wrong.
- [48:59]
Sean
Everything else. The path was perfect. Right?
- [49:01]
Matt Dawson
Yeah. No, I think for me, it would also be the advice I would give myself now, 20 years from now is don't. Don't stress over things as much, like what you fear happening. Is so unlikely. You know, I don't know, like the, the fear itself is greater than the likelihood of it happening. And you know, I think just, just, just worry less, enjoy, enjoy more. Like every. Everything will work out the way it's supposed to kind of thing. That sounds very hallmarky, but, you know.
- [49:37]
Sean
It sounds more Yoda. You're the Yoda of graphics.
- [49:40]
Matt Dawson
Okay. I like that way better.
- [49:45]
Massimo
This is crazy because, I mean, we can keep going.
- [49:47]
Sean
Yeah.
- [49:47]
Massimo
There's no question. But let's be sensitive to our first one. This way it might make you come back and have a second one. However, we finish every interview with a rapid fire list of questions which I did not share with you. Okay, so you've got two minutes to answer these questions. There's no right or wrong, but this gives us an idea of the person behind the designer.
- [50:14]
Sean
Are you ready? Matt, are you ready?
- [50:17]
Matt Dawson
I guess so.
- [50:18]
Sean
Okay.
- [50:18]
Massimo
All right, here we go. Mac or PC?
- [50:21]
Matt Dawson
Mac.
- [50:23]
Massimo
Paper or tablet?
- [50:25]
Matt Dawson
Tablet.
- [50:26]
Massimo
Favorite music genre or band?
- [50:29]
Matt Dawson
Alternative. I'm a 90s. I'm a 90s kid. Alternative rock.
- [50:34]
Massimo
Favorite color?
- [50:36]
Matt Dawson
Gray.
- [50:39]
Massimo
Morning person or night owl?
- [50:41]
Matt Dawson
Night owl.
- [50:43]
Massimo
Favorite childhood cartoon?
- [50:45]
Matt Dawson
I loved the X Men cartoon whenever I was a kid.
- [50:50]
Massimo
All right, that's good. That's respectable. Favorite collectible.
- [50:53]
Matt Dawson
Favorite vinyl? Unfortunately.
- [50:57]
Massimo
Favorite superhero?
- [50:59]
Matt Dawson
Favorite superhero? I'd go Spider Man.
- [51:03]
Sean
Nice.
- [51:03]
Massimo
Mouse or stylus?
- [51:06]
Matt Dawson
What's that?
- [51:06]
Massimo
Mouse or stylus?
- [51:09]
Matt Dawson
Oh, trackpad.
- [51:10]
Massimo
Oh, wow. Okay.
- [51:11]
Matt Dawson
Yeah.
- [51:12]
Massimo
Favorite design trend right now.
- [51:14]
Matt Dawson
I know the trends that aren't my favorite. Let's see, what's my worst trend right now?
- [51:19]
Massimo
Worst design trend then. Right now?
- [51:22]
Matt Dawson
Worst design trend. Designers feeling the need to be performers. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's legit trend. That's deep. But yeah, I don't know if there's a trend that I love at the moment. Yeah.
- [51:37]
Massimo
Cool. Coffee or tea?
- [51:39]
Matt Dawson
Coffee.
- [51:40]
Massimo
Barbecue or smoker?
- [51:43]
Matt Dawson
Barbecue.
- [51:44]
Massimo
Puppies or kittens?
- [51:46]
Matt Dawson
Puppies.
- [51:47]
Massimo
Pirates or ninjas?
- [51:48]
Matt Dawson
Pirates.
- [51:49]
Massimo
Who would win in an arm wrestle? You or Big Mike?
- [51:54]
Matt Dawson
Big Mike, hands down.
- [51:57]
Sean
Okay.
- [51:57]
Massimo
Okay, how about this? Here's a part B. Big Mike or your buddy Dan Jansen.
- [52:03]
Matt Dawson
Oh, come on. Dan's a. Yeah, Dan's like an action figure man. That's not fair. Yeah, it really is.
- [52:13]
Massimo
Favorite graphic designer? Past or present?
- [52:16]
Matt Dawson
That is a tough one. I don't know, to be honest. I truly like. That's too tough to answer. Fair enough. That's a poor excuse. But like, I don't know. Too many to list. Yeah.
- [52:31]
Massimo
What about favorite artist ever?
- [52:33]
Matt Dawson
Favorite artist? Do they have to be a visual artist?
- [52:40]
Massimo
No, not at all.
- [52:43]
Matt Dawson
I think I'd go Kurt Cobain.
- [52:45]
Massimo
Oh, interesting.
- [52:47]
Matt Dawson
Wow.
- [52:47]
Massimo
That's a little controversial, but being a 90s guy, that makes sense.
- [52:51]
Matt Dawson
Well, I think from a standpoint of creativity in music and his artwork as well, and just writing in general, I feel like there's a bit of a triple threat there and creativity and probably that left a mark on me at an impressionable age.
- [53:12]
Massimo
Okay, which is closer to your heart? RGB or cmyk?
- [53:16]
Matt Dawson
If you'd asked me five years ago, it'd be cmyk. Probably RGB these days.
- [53:22]
Massimo
Serif or non serif?
- [53:25]
Matt Dawson
Non serif.
- [53:27]
Massimo
Favorite font right now.
- [53:31]
Matt Dawson
Sweet. Sans, bold or heavy?
- [53:34]
Massimo
Okay, okay. Illustrator. Photoshop.
- [53:38]
Matt Dawson
Illustrator.
- [53:39]
Massimo
Rochanical. Pencil or a Micron pen?
- [53:43]
Matt Dawson
Micron pen for sure.
- [53:45]
Massimo
True or false? AI will replace designers.
- [53:49]
Matt Dawson
False.
- [53:50]
Massimo
Okay. Best guitar or bassline riff.
- [53:56]
Matt Dawson
The best baseline for me is a song called in the Meantime by a band called Space Hog. Spotify Bass line is killer and fun fact. The singer is also the bass player. So whenever you listen to that bass line, remember that he's singing over it as well. A completely different melody. It's, it's. Yeah, it's top, Top tier for sure.
- [54:22]
Massimo
What's your guilty pleasure?
- [54:23]
Matt Dawson
Pop music. Honestly.
- [54:26]
Massimo
Wow.
- [54:27]
D
Wow.
- [54:28]
Massimo
So opposite of your favorite music choice.
- [54:30]
Matt Dawson
Okay, well, it's, it's, it's just interesting. It's interesting from a songwriting perspective and like, kind of like analyzing, like, why does this work? Like, why does this appeal to so many people? So I think it's more of a dissection kind of thing.
- [54:47]
Massimo
I like that, actually. Brilliant. Yeah. If we can ever figure out what Taylor Swift is doing, let me know so that we can apply that to graphic design and.
- [54:55]
Sean
Woo.
- [54:56]
Matt Dawson
Yes.
- [54:57]
Massimo
Superpower of choice.
- [54:58]
Matt Dawson
Flights.
- [54:59]
Massimo
Best video game console ever.
- [55:03]
Matt Dawson
Super Nintendo.
- [55:04]
Massimo
Best guitar brand ever.
- [55:09]
Matt Dawson
I'm a Fender person, so I'd probably go Fender.
- [55:12]
Massimo
And one thing that always makes you angry.
- [55:18]
Matt Dawson
Traffic.
- [55:21]
Massimo
So you did the two minute rapid fire questions in a nice swift five minutes and 32 seconds. So I think, I think that's a new record.
- [55:32]
Sean
Things move slower down in Texas. That was good. There's a lot of thoughtful stuff in there, so we can't fault you for that.
- [55:42]
Massimo
Oh my God, that's amazing. Wait, wait. Before we go, I have to ask. Okay. Where did the name stay Great Pony Boy come from?
- [55:49]
Matt Dawson
You're gonna be so disappointed. It's. It's not. It's not particularly interesting or, you know, groundbreaking. So we, like me, my wife and I, we started a business called Studio Gray which was essentially my design studio name and kind of like what Crop was originally under. But studiogrey.com was not available. So just started thinking like brands that have like taglines and gray being my favorite color. It's also a family name. I thought of like that line from that, that mo. That book. As I almost said movie first, I'm sure book people would call me out. But from, from the Outsiders, the Stay Gold Pony Boy line, I was like, what about Stay Great Pony Boy? You know, as the online outlet and the, the URL was available basically too long, didn't read the URL was available and I was able to have it, you know, be matchy matchy with social handles, you know. Like I always hate whenever a client can't get the same, you know, social handles or URL and like it's all these different things. So I've leaned into it. I've wanted to get away from it, you know, honestly. But I think there's a bit of equity there. So like you can't anymore because I.
- [57:13]
Massimo
See that and I'm like, oh, it's Matt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very cool, dude. So where can people find out more information about Crop and about you?
- [57:23]
Matt Dawson
I wish I could say we were on all of the socials, but I think the most up to date information anybody can find for Crop is on Instagram Cons. We let our site hibernate during the hiatus and then we pick it back up once it's time to start promoting the next event. So Instagram at Crop Cons and same for me, Instagram @staygrayponywood. You'll see up to date work, spicy takes on certain things, musical stuff, you know, like I've. I've kind of decided to let that be my, my little outlet that's far easier to update than website. But I do have a new website coming soon.
- [58:02]
Massimo
Yeah, saw that. All right, very cool, dude. I'm glad we did this. I was, I was worried for a little bit, but I'm glad we connected and this has been a great. This has been, you know, exactly what I thought.
- [58:14]
Matt Dawson
What were you worried about?
- [58:15]
Massimo
Like, I mean again I'm. Dude, are you going to reply or what? What happened me for a bit. But no, I'm very perseverance. I kind of make sure He's a.
- [58:26]
Sean
He's a junkyard dog, man. He wouldn't let you go, you know.
- [58:30]
Matt Dawson
I'm so glad you did like my communication this summer. Like, I think it's just been, you know, like been pulled apart this summer just by like trips and this and that. So my communication has been dreadful and I do apologize.
- [58:44]
Massimo
No worries. You're here and that's all that matters.
- [58:46]
Sean
Thank.
- [58:48]
Matt Dawson
Thanks for having me off. This is awesome.
- [58:50]
Massimo
All right, everybody. So, I mean, again, if I could give any advice, make sure you check out Crop Con. Make sure you check out Matt. Of course. And you know, come the beginning of the year, when you're looking for hot design conferences to check out, this is one that is on our list to hit up, which I'm sure you'll be happy to hear. And. Yeah, absolutely. Come see Matt. Come see the amazing lineup. Come check out the history of it all. Because, I mean, there's no. There's no question. This isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
- [59:15]
Sean
Nope.
- [59:16]
Massimo
Yeah. It's only getting better.
- [59:17]
Matt Dawson
Yes.
- [59:17]
Massimo
Cool. My man.
- [59:18]
Sean
Yeah.
- [59:19]
Massimo
All right, everybody. Hope you enjoyed this. My name is Massimo.
- [59:22]
Sean
My name is Sean.
- [59:23]
Massimo
And you are?
- [59:24]
Matt Dawson
Matt.
- [59:25]
Massimo
Matt.
- [59:26]
Matt Dawson
Stay creative and stay angry.
- [59:36]
Massimo
Everybody in the world dies Please lord, give me a sign A sign I.
- [59:44]
D
Want to be the greatest everybody on their face. I look around I feel like everybody is the fakers I make this every day and I'm impatient hoping one day I blow up from the basement statement the top is so vacant I don't even that I think is amazing Waiting for my day when I'm playing sold out shows for a thousand faces hey give me that crown? Get in my way you'll be put down it ain't your place all this my town if I want that shit then I'll get it right now I'm losing it the noose it fits I'm loosey the stupid myth you choose to live or choose to dip? You choose to fight or lose your grip and lose a gift I feel.
- [60:14]
Matt Dawson
Like I'm losing my mind Everybody in the world please lord give me a sign A sign.